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View Full Version : Lightwave CORE Demo: A DO OVER! PLEASE



Julez4001
02-05-2009, 08:30 AM
The viral campaign that you guys put out was state of the art. I mean Brad Peebler was probably gushing about impressive it was but I am sure he just chuckled to no end on the "day of".


In the time where there hasn't been any innovation since Zbrush (or 3D Coat) from any of the other major apps.... CORE sounded and felt like new and fresh air. Its definitely Innovation within the world of Lightwave however by referencing the other big three (under one company name), the innovation felled short as the bulk of released features (history, modifers, scripting, etc, etc) have been with those 3 apps for a decade now.

I am suggesting a DO-OVER for at least releasing some info that seems innovative in terms of the BIG 3


This is what i mean from the little 5th :) Modo

http://www.luxology.com/event/2008/SIGGRAPH/index.aspx

These features seem fresh and innovative.


You guys gotta give us a little something more due to the botchery of the taped but poorly edited video that ranks witht he 2 week viral campaigning.

or Not!

But remember it was that hype that crashed your system and not the end result of what was displayed.

I think your base as well new potential users would bend for that.

mikala
02-05-2009, 09:09 AM
Don't give a rats butt about Modo. It has nothing to make me jump ship especially now.

MiniFireDragon
02-05-2009, 09:20 AM
At the end of the video they said this isn't all of it, it's just some of it, and more will be released.

Julez4001
02-05-2009, 09:27 AM
Agreed but my points were

A. Modo siggraph demo shows some innovation in terms of comparing them with other BIG 3 (or 4)

B. How they rolled out the features which interrupted newteks almost flawless viral campaign and that if Newtek has somethign else thatthey can show - then to do so to make up the balls dropped yesterday.
They don't have to..I am just saying ther eis some discontent amoung the viewership .

mikala
02-05-2009, 09:31 AM
Well this forum has always had more than it's share of whiners.

Julez4001
02-05-2009, 11:43 AM
Whiningis the nature of change and progress, if you settled for poor performance then you get more....

the demo was poor performance even if it wasn't their fault..the viral campaign deserves a great finish or a new start

othornton
02-05-2009, 12:18 PM
Julez, it's over. This is RL, there are no do-overs. If Newtek wants to polish the 2nd installment, so be it.

As for Siggraph, Modo was not there. They threw a single party event. That's it. The photo of their guy on the floor is from the pc area that was open to anyone and it looks like they just squatted there and ran demos on one tiny screen. But it definitely was not a real presence at Siggraph, just mocked up on their website to look like they were there. Great marketing.

If you don't believe me, here's a complete list of the vendors who had booths at Siggraph this year. Please notice Luxology is not on there.
http://sis.siggraph.org/cgi-bin/procform_SIS_2008.py?preparsed=1&command=pack&formname=exhibitor&all=1

Newtek had an exhibition stage bigger than Autodesk's and was running clips of BSG and Iron Man in between interviews with artists, producers, demos of new features, etc. They also had more artists and NT employees running demos than Autodesk. Most of the black-shirts at the AD display were actually hired hands, not AD employees (amazing what they'll tell you about AD's show for a cigarette).

I'm not disagreeing with your feelings on how the event went. You have every right to be underwhelmed by the execution of the reveal. But please realize that Newtek is better off spending their/our money on development than shiny pub events or huge impersonal clip shows staffed by townies.

Cheers.

Julez4001
02-05-2009, 06:33 PM
Julez, it's over. This is RL, there are no do-overs. If Newtek wants to polish the 2nd installment, so be it.

As for Siggraph, Modo was not there. {SNIP!}

Cheers.


I am going to stop you there because everything you said is irrevelant to my statement and forgivr me for not being clear. The above links was not to Modo's siggraph show but rather the video file sof whats coming in Modo 401. The innovation of 401 is fresh and appealing and new. Thats about as far as why that link is there..nothing more or less.

mav3rick
02-05-2009, 06:35 PM
please read rest of forum and informations regarding yesterday reveal.. newtek for sure will show somethin in upcoming days..

r10k
02-05-2009, 06:39 PM
The innovation of 401 is fresh and appealing and new.

Really? It looks looks like Modo has finally caught up and added in a bunch of effects every other app has had for years. I mean, volumetric lighting? Yeesh. I had that back in Truespace. I wouldn't call that fresh.

Julez4001
02-05-2009, 06:51 PM
Really? It looks looks like Modo has finally caught up and added in a bunch of effects every other app has had for years. I mean, volumetric lighting? Yeesh. I had that back in Truespace. I wouldn't call that fresh.

Come on, you gonna pull that one and not look at the other stuff.

The integrated Fprime Renderer where you can select the surface in the preview window and side panels to control lighting and GI options in realtime

The Billion polys rendering in same said window and instancing to boot

The skin tool for wraping low poly in the modeler like 3D Coat for retopologizing



I don't use Modo (one or twice) but that stuff is innovative
3dSmax just came out with wrap tool that mimicks the above mention
and none of em has anything close to Fprime and Modo just one-up it


All that and its integrated in the main app and are NOT PLUGINS

Julez4001
02-05-2009, 07:09 PM
I see a lot of guys trying to go tit-4-tat but it all boils down to presentation, which is the what this thread is about. Presentation of what makes Core innovative (comparing to the Big 3 and little 5)


We now know that Core and 401 will have instancing but as of now, Lux presentated theres a whole lot better than Core-Newtek ---thus the appealing part.


and don't forget that Core demo called out on 3DSMAX, Maya and XSI about innovation and didn't present anything native to LW CORE that was innovative...why would they do that?

Then they mention scultping and didn't show anything - why would they do that?

They need a do-over pronto! and/or some video -- and they need them like yesterday (figuratively)


Short History of Newtek innovation

Endomorphs - till this day no one has em like LW does
Hypervoxels - integrated voxel system
Subdivision surfaces - tab button and low res at display and hig res at render way back in 1995 when Maya (1999) was still screaming about Nurbs

r10k
02-06-2009, 01:17 AM
The integrated Fprime Renderer where you can select the surface in the preview window and side panels to control lighting and GI options in realtime

Uh, that's not new.


The Billion polys rendering in same said window and instancing to boot

Yes, which is great if you have 16 cores, or whatever it was they were using in the demo. On a side note, XSI has had that ability for some time now.


I don't use Modo (one or twice) but that stuff is innovative

No it's not. You 're talking about instancing like it's an brand new thing. Carrara 5 had instancing years ago, and it's now old hat in XSI.


and none of em has anything close to Fprime and Modo just one-up it

Look up Holomatix Rendition.


All that and its integrated in the main app and are NOT PLUGINS

Whoop-de-do. You're harping on about plain old instancing in Modo, while I have instancing in my physics-based particle simulations. Modo is miles behind the pack with what they've revealed thus far. It's not bad, it's just not innovative.

So, in other words what I'm saying is-you have no idea what it is you're talking about. I agree it'd be good to see more from Newtek, but this rubbish about how innovative Modo is by comparison, is just dumb.

Julez4001
02-06-2009, 06:12 AM
Uh, that's not new.

Fprime Renderer is in Modo 301 and earlier but the fact that it works with its new features and most importantly intrgrated in the package and NOT a plugin and the material select is innovative. Something they saw and ran with..taking it to the next level. Lightwave still doesn't have it and Modo does.


No it's not. You 're talking about instancing like it's an brand new thing. Carrara 5 had instancing years ago, and it's now old hat in XSI.

I'm taliking about the technology of instancing and its new incarnations (billions of polys) like its new. Hell ...Lw have HD Instance but its a plugin and it ain't integrated, you are the one inferring as if its new.

Modo is moving and pushing further and at the end of the day..how they presented themselves is light years past Newtek.



Holomatix Rendition.

A plugin that you got to pay for after you buy the Maya/max at regular price. Its not integrated so it will play catch up and what do you need? 16 cores? Just to run it with mental Ray cuz sure as hell ain't worried about the scanline renderer in either those apps.



Whoop-de-do.
uh-oh!
Side stepping that its all in one app and how important that can be.



You're harping on about plain old instancing in Modo,..SNIP

Correction you are harping on Instancing ... you totally ignored their topologizing tools and such..that are integrated as well with the other said features...scult brush and instancing works with topoogizing tools .... BTW



So, in other words what I'm saying is-you have no idea what it is you're talking about.

Yet you are trying to put words in my mouth.



I agree...

Finally! The first thing relevant.




it'd be good to see more from Newtek,

The whole point of this thread.
Nexttime I'll throw Softimage XSI ice instead of Modo because you have become fixated totally off the subject stuff.




but this rubbish about how innovative Modo is by comparison, is just dumb.

Once again, Luxology must have stolen your teddy bear because you have a huge hate-on for them. You can't make lite of how integration is and having features inside the application and NOT plugins wholly i sbeneficial to the application. What Core presented at its minimum was how its all becoming one app.And you can totally reconfigure. Modo at its minimum is adding feature insid eof one application and they work with each other.

MooseDog
02-06-2009, 07:07 AM
really really impressed with modo 401? really really laughing at core? np. go where you wish, where you prefer. not interested in your opinion and flights of fancy, after my own investigation i've decided on a toolset that works for me.

Nemoid
02-06-2009, 07:09 AM
Developing and marketing /advertisement are two totally different things. Luxology is enough good in developing, but's way better in marketing/advertising.

Lux is very smart into presenting their products well (videos, modcasts previews and feedback)
Nt has never had fantastic advertisement of their products. I wish they change in better in this field because its important to get more new users.

unfortunately what's done is done, and i'd make better next time.
they also apologized and said that that vid was not what they planned actually (it was probably plan b)

development: about core : we have to actually wait for further (better) information and see more clearly what core is and if is worth.

about Lux: development isn't exactly what i'd call innovative : Zbrush was innovative. 3d coat is. Face robot was innovative.
They changed the dcc process totally if you look closely.
also 7 years old as a company. no great animation, no dynamics, no nodal shading no SDK (!!!)...

it's all integrated but not mature.

a more "traditional" general app, good for several purposes, needs a fast workflow, taking inspiration from other apps and giving the artist the funnier and more intuitive experience ever
this coupled with good power and flexibility, programmability and working well with other apps (because in large pipelines they use a heck lot of apps)

we are looking forward and see if core will offer this.

UnCommonGrafx
02-06-2009, 07:24 AM
I am so glad the Reveal went the way it did. Let's all the other companies make fun of NewTek for a while, which, in turn, keeps the marketing wheels a turnin'... Then, when they come with the goods, when they unleash Williams videos on how to use the new tools and the like then they can worry about the presentation of the product.
The way I see it, though they sell the tools it doesn't have to be that they are actors for the purposes at hand.

I don't ever want to see a Do-over of the Reveal. I'd much rather get on with using it.

uncleBRY
02-06-2009, 07:29 AM
Modo is nice, but I think as modo becomes more complex the fact that it is not node based is really going to start hurting its workflow.

cresshead
02-06-2009, 07:33 AM
here's the thing...i'm not buying or using a demo video...i can see past video editing glitches of a demo..heck some of the most informative videos i've EVER seen were when i took my camcorder to a show and recorded over the demo guy's shoulder with my 'wobbly cam' with some 3dsmax plugin developer [cebas btw]...

yeah sure we can have a truck full of gloss and wot not but the DETAIL is in the DETAILS...the information.

the vid was rushed out as newtek battled the gremilins of the day that unfoolded..read the post by newtek.

more videos will follow

wobble cam or not i'll be looking at what the app can do and not weather the presenter's could win an oscar for 'gloss'

and to PROVE my point...look at this from AUTODESK

....

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=sausalitoman&view=videos

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 07:47 AM
The photo of their guy on the floor is from the pc area that was open to anyone and it looks like they just squatted there and ran demos on one tiny screen.

...

Newtek had an exhibition stage bigger than Autodesk's and was running clips of BSG and Iron Man in between interviews with artists, producers, demos of new features, etc.

Both are incorrect. Lux had a pod at the Intel booth and were there for the whole show, including signage and marketing material. They were not squatting.

And Newtek never ran a single clip of Iron Man footage. And it was never inbetween interviews. They ran a series of stills, 5 times while I was talking.

Either way, the original post is about showmanship and marketing. the core video didn't show anything that wasen't in max1 over ten years ago. I await further information.

SBowie
02-06-2009, 07:48 AM
I can't compare the videos - wish I could, but I can't get the Modo 401 vids to run. Without commenting on them, then, I can say I had zero issues with the presentation. I think it's cool when you get to see people who are personally involved, even if they may not get an Emmy. I've seen Steve Jobs and Bill Gates both flub details - who cares, seriously?

As to the content, I think they laid a very nice foundation for what follows, covered the initial introduction quite nicely. That's exactly what one would hope for. Though I hate to use the metaphor, this type of reveal is basically a strip-tease. A lot less interest is generated if the ... errrr . 'artist' just walks out and bares it all at the first clash of a cymbal.

In consequence, we're already seeing a fair bit of screaming for 'more, more!' None of this should be a surprise, as it's marketing 101. (Even 'They dropped the ball!' comments only result in more discussion, which equals more interest aroused.)

p.s. - even the initial 'crashing' of the stream, aggravating as it was, has positive overtones ... too much interest!

r10k
02-06-2009, 08:07 AM
Side stepping that its all in one app and how important that can be.

I'm not side stepping it- I'm arguing that it's not innovative.


I'm taliking about the technology of instancing and its new incarnations (billions of polys) like its new. Hell ...Lw have HD Instance but its a plugin and it ain't integrated, you are the one inferring as if its new.

I was going to counter a few things you said, but your broken english is confusing as all heck. I give up.

Julez4001
02-06-2009, 08:57 AM
I'm not side stepping it- I'm arguing that it's not innovative.


Then you arguing by yourself.



*SNIP--- for irrelevant and cheap shot to get put of debate*
I give up.


Thank you.

Mike RB:


Either way, the original post is about showmanship and marketing. the core video didn't show anything that wasen't in max1 over ten years ago. I await further information.


Thank you. Someone got it.
I already mention I could have easily replaced Modo with [insert app].

sgfx
02-06-2009, 03:39 PM
To Newtek:
Here is the problem with the Video..
Newtek prides itself in not only being a 3D software company but a video edit and production equipment company... this video and the lack of preparation was an embarrassment to All of Newtek.

You know with all the hype that LW users were telling their non LW user friends to "Come and see what Newtek is doing now.. This is going to be big!! this is what we have waited for...!!!" Now imagine how horrified they were when all they saw was a blank screen for half hour and then only to be followed by that presentation.

Come on guys this look like something a Jr high student would make with a few freeware apps.
They set the bar high with a wonderful countdown.. then slap us with CRAP!.. A video that was Not on time!.. poorly produced!... had green people!... not really informative!... edited on 16:9 shown on 4:3.! ... and well ...the list goes on.

I know that tech people are not necessarily artist but it Shocks me that the Newtek heads would even let this out of the house.

For the sake of all the Loyal Newtekers (I have been one for over 20 years) Show some pride in your products.. and hire any one of your loyal users who produce Top rate products everyday and let them do you proud!

"In all you do.. strive to do the best".. this was not even close to the best.

End of Rant----

BTW: The product looks like it is going to be a wonderfull product.. I just hope that when the times come to release it .. You will let the world know it.