PDA

View Full Version : Are non-HardCORE customers screwed?



MSwengel
02-05-2009, 05:50 AM
Ok... I'll be blunt.

CORE looks interesting, but until I get a favorable answer to THIS question, NT and I aren't on good terms.

One of the stated "benefits" of HardCORE is getting updates to 9.x

Does this mean that those of us who can't afford HardCORE are now screwed out of bugfixes and updates? Are any future updates now reserved for the "elite" members???

If this is true, I must say I am VERY upset with NT. :2guns::I_Love_Ne
:cursin::lwicon::tsktsk:

pooby
02-05-2009, 06:08 AM
It DID sound like that but I very much hope not.
I find it hard to believe that Newtek would isolate users like that, after all, we bought into the 9.x series on the understanding that upgrades were free.

CORE should be separate new start and not tangled up with the 9 series.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 06:48 AM
I would think that some bugfixes would be free but I think the implication was that Lightwave 9.6 would still see some actual development for those who are hardcore members. We'll just have to get some clarification.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 06:52 AM
And THAT is just wrong. Many of us bought LW with the understanding that updates and improvements will be made available to us as they come - FOR NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE.

For that to change overnight is maddening!

Red_Oddity
02-05-2009, 06:52 AM
If you own LW 9 it's an update of less than $400, not exactly the astronomical update fee we are used to with competing companies (or company these days), and i think it is a bargain for basically getting a brand spanking (and truly) new LW.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 06:59 AM
And THAT is just wrong. Many of us bought LW with the understanding that updates and improvements will be made available to us as they come - FOR NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE.

For that to change overnight is maddening!

I'm not sure it is. Normally, Lightwave versions in the past haven't gone much beyond the .5 mark, sometimes .6. So never in the past would you be waiting around for a .7 or .8, you would be waiting for the next version of Lightwave. It's here earlier then usual. I cant' see how that's a bad thing for anyone. You've received more updates to Lightwave 9, definitely more substantial, then any previous version of Lightwave. Try to keep it in perspective. You're not getting cheated out of anything.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 07:02 AM
If you own LW 9 it's an update of less than $400, not exactly the astronomical update fee we are used to with competing companies (or company these days), and i think it is a bargain for basically getting a brand spanking (and truly) new LW.

The idea is MANY of us can't afford $400. Since the understanding was that updates to 9.x are free for owners of 9.x, expecting us to pay now is a bit odd.

I can understand paying for CORE as that is completely new and different. However, it seems unreasonable to make us pay for updates to something we ALREADY OWN.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 07:48 AM
I'm not sure it is. Normally, Lightwave versions in the past haven't gone much beyond the .5 mark, sometimes .6. So never in the past would you be waiting around for a .7 or .8, you would be waiting for the next version of Lightwave. It's here earlier then usual. I cant' see how that's a bad thing for anyone. You've received more updates to Lightwave 9, definitely more substantial, then any previous version of Lightwave. Try to keep it in perspective. You're not getting cheated out of anything.

Oh I AM keeping it in perspective. We know there will be more added to 9.6. The CORE demonstrators said there will be. The issue is whether or not non HardCORE customers will have access to those updates.

It doesn't seem right to charge for updates to a program for which we have already PAID.

Verlon
02-05-2009, 07:53 AM
If you own LW 9 it's an update of less than $400, not exactly the astronomical update fee we are used to with competing companies (or company these days), and i think it is a bargain for basically getting a brand spanking (and truly) new LW.

No, it isn't that expensive, but it might be something someone would have to put off for a while. Everyone's situation is different.

I too asked about this, but I put the same nine questions in two other threads and didn't want to keep posting the same thing.

Lewis
02-05-2009, 07:55 AM
MSwengel - you didn't pay for LWCore, you payed for Lw 9.0 and got 5 (yes FIVE) free updates and now we are at Lw 9.6. LWCore is simply as it would be Lw10 but much better (rewriten from start) and that never stated it is gonna be free update so you mixed up something :). Full point (4.0, 5.0, 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, 9.9...) updates were always charged updates from day one so nothing has changed in that policy.

biliousfrog
02-05-2009, 07:57 AM
I can't see anything new being added to LW9x, just minor bug fixes. It already works and doesn't need further improving as far as this stage of things goes. I'd also rather see the efforts of the development team focused on the new product rather than updating a product that is disontinued...as an example, you wouldn't expect bug fixes for 8.5 once LW9 was released.

Red_Oddity
02-05-2009, 07:58 AM
Oh, sorry mate, i misread your post, you're concerned about LW 9.x updates....
I have no answer to that, but i doubt bug fixed will be withheld from you for the rest of the 9.x cycle.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 07:58 AM
No, it isn't that expensive, but it might be something someone would have to put off for a while. Everyone's situation is different.

I too asked about this, but I put the same nine questions in two other threads and didn't want to keep posting the same thing.

"isn't that expensive" is relative.



MSwengel - you didn't pay for LWCore, you payed for Lw 9.0 and got 5 (yes FIVE) free updates and now we are at Lw 9.6. LWCore is simply as it would be Lw10 but much better (rewriten from start) and that never stated it is gonna be free update so you mixed up something :). Full point (4.0, 5.0, 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, 9.9...) updates were always charged updates from day one so nothing has changed in that policy.


That isn't the issue here. The question is whether or not we will have to PAY to continue to get updates for 9.6 (that we know are coming). If the only charge were for CORE, I would have NO problem with it whatsoever. I just don't think it's right to start charging customers for updates to something they already own.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 08:06 AM
I can't see anything new being added to LW9x, just minor bug fixes. It already works and doesn't need further improving as far as this stage of things goes. I'd also rather see the efforts of the development team focused on the new product rather than updating a product that is disontinued...as an example, you wouldn't expect bug fixes for 8.5 once LW9 was released.

Except for the fact that the CORE demonstrators said there WILL be "improvements" made to 9.6.

Additionally, yes, I would hope for bug fixes for 8.5 as much as possible. Granted, attention should be devoted to 9.x. HOWEVER, 8.5 customers shouldn't be forgotten. I would NOT expect new content to be added to 8.5 as that content is part of 9.x and part of the incentive to upgrade. But, a bug in the software is the fault of the developers. Therefore, the developers should seek to rectify the situation as much as is possible.

So, yes. I WOULD expect bug fixes for 8.5 while the current is 9.x. I would NOT expect new features. And I DO expect for those customers to be taken care of. It is simply good business practice.

Granted there is a point where we must move on. SO, I would suggest a period of development of bug fixes. For instance, as version 9 is released, say we will provide bug fixes and updates (not upGRADES) to 8.5 for six months from the release of 9x. That would give customers ample time to upgrade to 9.x while not forgetting about the bugs customers of 8.5 may experience.

I hope this isn't too rambling. I'm trying to do about 20 things at once here. :)

Lewis
02-05-2009, 08:13 AM
I think you ask for impossible and not realistic, BUG fixes for LW 8.5 ?? C'mon :) should we then ask Bug fixes for LW 5.6c too ? - that was most stable LW version :) :).

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 08:16 AM
I think you ask for impossible and not realistic, BUG fixes for LW 8.5 ?? C'mon :) should we then ask Bug fixes for LW 5.6c too ? - that was most stable LW version :) :).

Did you not read what I said? :stumped: A PERIOD OF UPDATING.

I don't expect INDEFINITE updates. NOO. That would be unrealistic.

But for 6 months to a year from the release of the new version, bug fixes SHOULD still be made available to owners of the previous version. I'm not asking for much here.

READ.

Lewis
02-05-2009, 08:21 AM
I've read it but do you remeber when LW 8.5 was out ???? Do you ?? it was 2005 so that's not "a period if updating" as you say - that's long ago in past and I'm sure there won't be any updates to LW 8.5 no matter how hard you want it. Actually i don't remember any of 3D companies update old versions and especially not 6 VERSIONS back liek 8.5 :). That would be total nonsense c'oz 8.5 code was used to make 9.0 so basically 9.0 fixed most of 8.5 bugs and therefore 8.5 is obsolete :).

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 08:26 AM
I'm not sure why they're adding anything else to 9.6, let alone 8.5. Sure, fix the bugs if possible. But adding features or additions?
Isn't that what new version of Lightwave is for? I know, we'll call it Lightwave Core.

theo
02-05-2009, 08:32 AM
Did you not read what I said? :stumped: A PERIOD OF UPDATING.

I don't expect INDEFINITE updates. NOO. That would be unrealistic.

But for 6 months to a year from the release of the new version, bug fixes SHOULD still be made available to owners of the previous version. I'm not asking for much here.

READ.

I think 6-8 months of basic bug fixes would be appropriate in the context you present it.

This would stabilize folk who need to hang on to 9.x series for financial reasons. After all, the economy is in a challenging position for many and a buffer here would allow them to eventually become upgrading customers.

I think that Newtek has presented a fantastic outline here for the future of LW which has sold me because I am a predictably inclined-to-purchase non-casual LW user but my gut feeling is they need to introduce more detailed specifics with accompanying screen shots and perhaps video before people, in larger numbers, put a wad up for the hardcore version.

JBT27
02-05-2009, 08:32 AM
That statement caught me out too - it was very ambiguous.....genuinely, if you have 9.6 and don't intend buying into Core, then you should be eligible for all the 9.x releases and patches, or at least the patches.

Bit of a tough call in some ways for NT, but probably they really ought to leave the 9.x cycle out of this new payment equation - their choice for sure, take it or leave it, but it would seem odd if there was a 9.8 in the summer but only Core members could have it.

But then why not charge for that?

It's about time NT did have some money off us for all that work.....

Julian.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 08:35 AM
I've read it but do you remeber when LW 8.5 was out ???? Do you ?? it was 2005 so that's not "a period if updating" as you say - that's long ago in past and I'm sure there won't be any updates to LW 8.5 no matter how hard you want it. Actually i don't remember any of 3D companies update old versions and especially not 6 VERSIONS back liek 8.5 :). That would be total nonsense c'oz 8.5 code was used to make 9.0 so basically 9.0 fixed most of 8.5 bugs and therefore 8.5 is obsolete :).

Ok you obviously don't get it. :screwy:

I'm using 8.5 and 9x as an analogy for 9x and Core.

Look. Core is a brand new version. I get that. I have no problem with buying that. But, updates for 9x should still be available and free.

I see it this way: a bug in the software is the fault of the developers. Why should the end user have to pay to get the fix for the problem that was caused by the devs? I have no problem with paying for new FEATURES.

When someone buys a piece of software, he/she is paying for WORKING software. Bugs are deviations from what the software SHOULD do. Unfixed bugs rob the customer of that for which he paid.

Again, AS AN EXAMPLE, in CORE, the devs have no doubt found ways to fix the bugs 9x has. They should use that knowledge to patch up the bugs in 9x while leaving the new FEATURES in Core. I'm not saying we should get the features of Core. I know NT has put a lot of time and money into it and THAT should not be free.

Bug fixes and patches should be.

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 08:36 AM
Perhaps what this means is that they will just continue the LW9.x Betas if you are part of the HARDCORE Beta Tester CLUB and when another stable version of say LW9.7 is created they will then release it for general consumption... this is just what we have been doing for all of LW9 if you participated in the Beta program. So maybe this was just a clumsy way of saying that the LW9.x Beta testing would continue along with the LW10 Beta testing AND NOT a comment of what the General releases would be. This would make sense to me. As a beta tester I have had dozens of Beta releases of LW9.x that the General users don't see until a new stable release is made.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 08:38 AM
I think 6-8 months of basic bug fixes would be appropriate in the context you present it.

This would stabilize folk who need to hang on to 9.x series for financial reasons. After all, the economy is in a challenging position for many and a buffer here would allow them to eventually become upgrading customers.

I think that Newtek has presented a fantastic outline here for the future of LW which has sold me because I am a predictably inclined-to-purchase non-casual LW user but my gut feeling is they need to introduce more detailed specifics with accompanying screen shots and perhaps video before people, in larger numbers, put a wad up for the hardcore version.

EXACTLY! :D :thumbsup:

juanjgon
02-05-2009, 08:39 AM
I think that hardCore is actually a fee for open beta access plus some other gifts, but final releases are going to be like after core ... pay the update for full x.0 release and free updates for x.x ... and they want to release a full x.0 version each year.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 08:39 AM
Perhaps what this means is that they will just continue the LW9.x Betas if you are part of the HARDCORE Beta Tester CLUB and when another stable version of say LW9.7 is created they will then release it for general consumption... this is just what we have been doing for all of LW9 if you participated in the Beta program. So maybe this was just a clumsy way of saying that the LW9.x Beta testing would continue along with the LW10 Beta testing AND NOT a comment of what the General releases would be. This would make sense to me. As a beta tester I have had dozens of Beta releases of LW9.x that the General users don't see until a new stable release is made.

I hope so. I would be perfectly fine with that plan. :agree:

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 08:44 AM
Except it would appear that Newtek is changing their pricing policy for Lightwave. Why should there be some exclusion for past versions of Lghtwave? You were never "promised" anything. Newtek has always given free updates to Lightwave but times are changing. You go and try to find the upgrade value that you have received with 9.x somewhere else. 5 very substantial and Free updates. I'll save you the trouble though of looking for it- you won't find it.
It's just like the modeling tools in layout. They told us they planned on giving them to us during the 9.x cycle. But it's not happening. It wasn't a promise so much as a plan that didn't pan out. I imagine it had to do with the difficulty in dealing with the older code base. This is why they're moving ahead with Core.

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 08:48 AM
I think LW9.6.x will be around for a long time since it will be the last of this version of LW. All the Plugins and LScripts made to date will not work on the new LWCORE SDK so for legacy reasons I think we will be using LW9.6.x along side of LWCORE for a few years until the Plugin base is built up for the new CORE SDK.

I can't imagine what would inspire NT to release an update to LW8.5 at this time... it would have to be some major problem that causes it to crash wipe the hard drive or something equally as catastrophic... at some point you just don't make updates to old code, because there are always bugs, this is never ending in a complex application like LW, you just have to stop fixing at some point.

mav3rick
02-05-2009, 08:57 AM
relax guys today chuck will step up probable with more clear statement... i am sure they are working on deeper explanation of all this memebership

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 09:09 AM
Except it would appear that Newtek is changing their pricing policy for Lightwave. Why should there be some exclusion for past versions of Lghtwave? You were never "promised" anything. Newtek has always given free updates to Lightwave but times are changing. You go and try to find the upgrade value that you have received with 9.x somewhere else. 5 very substantial and Free updates. I'll save you the trouble though of looking for it- you won't find it.
It's just like the modeling tools in layout. They told us they planned on giving them to us during the 9.x cycle. But it's not happening. It wasn't a promise so much as a plan that didn't pan out. I imagine it had to do with the difficulty in dealing with the older code base. This is why they're moving ahead with Core.

You also don't want to do a lot of work for no reason too. If you have a completely new architecture that would make the job 10X easier and faster... I think the rebuild of Modeler is a major task and would be a wast of time to do it twice. My guess is they picked things that could be portable and code that would work in LW9 and LW10... NT made many comments on what would be in LW9 and I think we got about 10X more then they told us we would get just not what they initially said we would see... remember the old GI... it took days to render!! No one thought that was coming!

The new CORE should make LW upgrades much easier and less prone to error or side effects... we, for instance, wont have many versions of a Rotate or a Scale function they will all behave the same so you wont need to learn the idiosyncrasy's of each variant. We should get much more consistency of function.

Lewis
02-05-2009, 09:10 AM
at some point you just don't make updates to old code, because there are always bugs, this is never ending in a complex application like LW, you just have to stop fixing at some point.

Exactly and that's my point, there is no BUG free 3D Software and I'd rather NT spend time on LWC than on 9.x series which work pretty fine in it's 9.6 FINAL.

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 09:17 AM
Is Python Object Orented and Recursive?

archijam
02-05-2009, 09:20 AM
For quoting needs: :thumbsup:

# 9 1999 - LightWave 3D 6.0
* 9.1 2000 - LightWave 3D 6.5
# 10 2001 - LightWave 3D 7.0
* 10.1 2002 - LightWave 3D 7.5
# 11 2004 - LightWave 3D 8.0
* 11.1 2004 - LightWave 3D 8.0.1
* 11.2 2005 - LightWave 3D 8.2
o 11.2.1 2005 - LightWave 3D 8.2.1
* 11.3 2005 - LightWave 3D 8.3
* 11.4 2005 - LightWave 3D 8.5
# 12 2006 - LightWave 3D 9.0
* 12.1 2007 - LightWave 3D 9.2
* 12.2 2007 - LightWave 3D 9.3
* 12.3 2007 - LightWave 9.3.1
* 12.4 2008 - LightWave 9.5
* 12.5 2009 - LightWave 9.6
# 13 Q4.2009 - LightWave CORE

ie. a major point release every 2-3 years.
This announcement seems to be stepping up the versioning, but also the speed of development.

Adrian Lopez
02-05-2009, 09:31 AM
Some relevant answers (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94787) by Jim Plant:


Question 1: Is HardCORE a new subscription program for LightWave?
Answer 1: Yes, but it is not mandatory. You can still buy LightWave upgrades the way you always have in the past. It's an optional program that will allow you to interact more closely with our developers and participate in the development of LightWave CORE. It also provides early access to the LightWave CORE technology. There are other benefits, as well.

Question 2: How often do you plan to ship a major paid upgrade?
Answer 2: Development plans are just that....plans; but we do hope to ship major paid upgrades more often than we have in the past. The CORE architecture will give us the opportunity to innovate faster than we've been able to previously.

Question 3: Will I be forced to upgrade or punished if I don't upgrade?
Answer 3: No. Just as always, you can choose to upgrade whenever you want and there will be no penalty if you choose not to. You can skip as many upgrades as you want and still come back in at any time and purchase the current upgrade at the current upgrade price.

Question 4: Will bug fixes continue to be free?
Answer 4: Yes.

Question 5: Does the HardCORE subscription program include the LightWave CORE, or do I have to pay extra when it ships?
Answer 5: It is included.

Question 6: What if you don't ship LightWave CORE in Q4 like you planned, and my HardCORE subscription expires before you ship?
Answer 6: You'll still get it. We'll guarantee at least one paid upgrade with each annual HardCORE subscription.

Question 7: How much will the HardCORE subscription cost next year?
Answer 7: We don't know yet. It's hard to predict our future costs and prices, but it will likely be the same as it is this year.

Question 8: When can I sign up for HardCORE?
Answer 8: Soon...probably in the next day or two. We'll send out a notice as soon as sign-up is available.

Question 9: What if don't live in the United States, can I still sign up for HardCORE?
Answer 9: Yes, you can sign up directly with NewTek on our site. We should have all that ready in a day or two.

theo
02-05-2009, 09:36 AM
Exactly and that's my point, there is no BUG free 3D Software and I'd rather NT spend time on LWC than on 9.x series which work pretty fine in it's 9.6 FINAL.

But, in the same token, LW 9.6 does represent a 'final' product of some sort in a series.

If I had purchased an upgrade to 9.6 from 8.5 I would not at all be thrilled with a dead stop in development if, for example, a significant bug surfaced.

I totally understand a cold turkey approach. I will, with little thought, be upgrading to LWC but I don't think it is entirely easy to not have some empathy for those who don't have the cash right now YET have a recently finalized product in their mitts which should automatically incur some sort of bug fix cushion.

Here's what I suggest:

Newtek should inform all users who do not upgrade to LWC that ALL bug fixes and patches for current technology outside the scope of LWC will end on June 30 or, whatever.

Verlon
02-05-2009, 10:16 AM
Well let us not too hastily put answers into NT's press releases for them. There is no need to debate honest questions, and no need to get angry or upset until we know the answers to said questions. Lets ask politely, and get them aswered as quickly as possible.

Instead of creating an oversized thread with "Why would you ask that?" and the ensuing discussion, lets just get the actual questions out there.

When will we be able to see the feature list for core? I think that would be a major factor in whether or not anyone were shelling out the money for it.

theo
02-05-2009, 10:43 AM
Well let us not too hastily put answers into NT's press releases for them.

It would surely be an outrage if my profound wisdom on this matter was not immediately and instantly included into any and all press releases. Especially since it was shared generically in an unrelated forum setting which only heightens the sense of certain inclusion.

I should have known better than to unleash such exquisite verbal force on NT. Thank you for the enlightenment- I need to figure out a way to harness my power.:devil:

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 01:49 PM
By the way....

I want to apologize to you folks if I came off a bit harsh earlier. I was in a...mood...

Anyway, I do apologize, and hopefully I'll see you around the forums. :D

~ MS

mac
02-05-2009, 05:57 PM
I bought in at 8.3, Vue 5 Infinite was thrown in for free. So since then I got free updates

LightWave 3D 8.5
LightWave 3D 9.0
LightWave 3D 9.2
LightWave 3D 9.3
LightWave 9.3.1
LightWave 9.5
LightWave 9.6

So how do I feel about Core .. cheque is in the mail baby :thumbsup: