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View Full Version : Lightwave CORE = smoke and mirrors



Fausto
02-05-2009, 02:00 AM
No screen grabs or closeup shots of the current UI on any of the CORE pages makes me wonder if the product is real. The video was poor in quality, not too mention that no real feature was presented during the launch let down. I mean nothing of any real significance was showcased. OK, the UI can change, well I think it can anyway, the video was so poor you really couldn't tell. That said, there's nothing earth shattering about this feature, other applications have had this capability for a long time. What else? The stack, the edit plane, that you can move menus and tool bars around? Again, SO WHAT? Sure the discussion promised a lot, spoke of a bright future, open SDK (promised for years) python scripting, but why wasn't the presentation more thorough? Why didn't we see anything more substantial, either related to modeling, animating, or rendering? If you want to sell this thing, shouldn't you have been more thorough, told the full story, or at least more than 1% of 1% of the story? SHOW ME!

If they couldn't demonstrate anything more than this after two years of development, how long before there's an actual full feature rich working beta? What was showcased today wasn't 1% of what the current LW is capable of doing.

And another thing; WOW, if that wasn't the most pathetic product launch in history it has to be inline for honorable mention. This looks like it was planned 13 days ago, and didn't get put in the can until this morning. The build up was perfect, the countdown, the mystery behind this new experience, the punchline however, was terrible, ill conceived and to be brutally honest, a total amateur disaster. Actually, this gives amateur disasters a bad name.. Who uses an engineer to launch a new product? Where was your marketing department, does Newtek have a marketing department? This guy couldn't have been more stiff if he was deceased. It was amateur in every way, and quite frankly came across like a plea for money, nothing more.

I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdow

AbnRanger
02-05-2009, 02:37 AM
No screen grabs or closeup shots of the current UI on any of the CORE pages makes me wonder if the product is real. The video was poor in quality, not too mention that no real feature was presented during the launch let down. I mean nothing of any real significance was showcased. OK, the UI can change, well I think it can anyway, the video was so poor you really couldn't tell. That said, there's nothing earth shattering about this feature, other applications have had this capability for a long time. What else? The stack, the edit plane, that you can move menus and tool bars around? Again, SO WHAT? Sure the discussion promised a lot, spoke of a bright future, open SDK (promised for years) python scripting, but why wasn't the presentation more thorough? Why didn't we see anything more substantial, either related to modeling, animating, or rendering? If you want to sell this thing, shouldn't you have been more thorough, told the full story, or at least more than 1% of 1% of the story? SHOW ME!

If they couldn't demonstrate anything more than this after two years of development, how long before there's an actual full feature rich working beta? What was showcased today wasn't 1% of what the current LW is capable of doing.

And another thing; WOW, if that wasn't the most pathetic product launch in history it has to be inline for honorable mention. This looks like it was planned 13 days ago, and didn't get put in the can until this morning. The build up was perfect, the countdown, the mystery behind this new experience, the punchline however, was terrible, ill conceived and to be brutally honest, a total amateur disaster. Actually, this gives amateur disasters a bad name.. Who uses an engineer to launch a new product? Where was your marketing department, does Newtek have a marketing department? This guy couldn't have been more stiff if he was deceased. It was amateur in every way, and quite frankly came across like a plea for money, nothing more.

I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdowIs that you, Mr. Grinch? :devil:

hub73
02-05-2009, 03:08 AM
Core, increase the lw price, no ? I'm an hobbist. So i should sell my lightwave v9 copy. I can't follow this. I can't pay the upgrade with my low budget ! Lightwave price and community was so fantastic ! I don't understand really what'is Core. A new commercial politic ?

Jaffro
02-05-2009, 03:36 AM
I agree, its probably not a great thing for the LW hobbist (I'm one!). The pricing plan does seem to be aimed at the professionals/studios :( But i guess they have to cater to their primary target market...

As for what LW Core is... Its like NewTek have (in basic terms) created a new 3D program, using the workflow/feel/design aspects of the existing Lightwave 3D. This was required because the foundations of the existing Lightwave gives some fairly annoying limitations to coders writing plugins - and also the NewTek development team i'd imagine. Its like upgrading your computer hardware, you can put in a new CPU, more memory, hard drive space etc.. that helps a lot! But eventually you need to upgrade the motherboard & OS to allow you the latest technology benefits, now and in the future.

I expect to start with quite a lot of us wont see a huge massive change. However this is essential to LWs' future and seriously opens massive doors for development, I just hope the LWCore dev team have gone through some of those doors and will be shipping LWCore with some kick a** tools!

They promised in the video that they would release some more demonstrations... fingers crossed we're not waiting long!

Weetos
02-05-2009, 03:41 AM
Core, increase the lw price, no ? I'm an hobbist. So i should sell my lightwave v9 copy. I can't follow this. I can't pay the upgrade with my low budget ! Lightwave price and community was so fantastic ! I don't understand really what'is Core. A new commercial politic ?

Come on, upgrade to CORE is $395 for a limited time (dunno if this will be €300 or €385 for europe, though) - if CORE is really what has been announced (Jay said there will be more presentations about it), then that's a good deal

It's true $395 is something in current context, but remember that modo is $895, so I think it's still a bargain (if, of course, there's more than what was shown so far)

The core site announces what the users have been waiting for years, and even more - that's very promising !

I'm waiting for what's coming next before I decide whether or not I upgrade - NT, it's all up to you - show me and convince me !

regularfry
02-05-2009, 03:46 AM
As far as I'm concerned the biggies are Linux support (yay!) and SWIG bindings. That's a *real* turn-on right there. I'll be upgrading pretty much as soon as I've got budget for it.

kopperdrake
02-05-2009, 03:52 AM
Dear Lord - $395 to get on the badnwagon now, $495 normal pricing, going to slightly higher in the future.

This is a *pro* piece of software, you're buying it at a cheap price as it is - Modo costs more then LW currently without half the features - albeit some decent modelling tools.

You get nothing for free in this world - even Blender costs people money in that they're giving their time up to develop it. Rest assured that some of the developers on that platform will go on to proper companies where they can earn a living, I assume there will always be a rotation system happening with such open-source software, it may not be around in 5 years time, it may be around in a different guise. As someone making a living out of LightWave I couldn't risk it. LightWave has managed to keep me onboard so far and this pricing structure seems very fair.

Put it this way, if this is smoke and mirrors and y ou don't get what they're promising then there will be a massive bunch *very* upset so I don't think they can afford to have it as just smoke and mirrors - *their* livelihood depends on it also.

Chrizto
02-05-2009, 04:24 AM
First of all, the video presentation given an hour off schedule, was probably not the real production show. My guess is that it was roughly put together while we waited that extra hour. The quality of the show, would be an indicator, and it lasted for what? ten minutes? fifteen?
Something nasty happened and they had to produce a mock up in a hurry.

The cost of upgrading to Core is without doubt worth it for most users, but maybe not for all.
We're talking MAJOR overhaul here. I like the inclusion of the new construction grid technology, witch resembles what Modo has today, so it is easier to align and manipulate geo/modifiers in one large viewport instead of having to constantly switch. I love that functionality in Modo, and now it comes to LW as well. This is a major productivity gain.

Finally, they've included a decent modifier stack that works independent of the history on nodes, witch is something that has kept me using Max and pay too much for software that crashes two times a day. This is a giant leap forward, as I see it.

I bet the UV tools have been reworked from the ground up as well, so we can have a pelt module that is on par with the Modo UV module. Modo's UV tools are now regarded as the best available by many professionals.

Animation tools and FX modules will probably be incredible as well.
Python integrated scripting is also a major plus!

The thing about the "Hardcore membership" plan is a bit geeky, but from an economical point of view it makes good sense, as it will be a more predictive income measure for the folks at Newtek.
It is not very different from other companies, except the price is right! (as usual). :thumbsup:

For me I have waited to see what this Core upgrade will become, and have been a dominating factor for dropping Autodesk as a whole.

LW will now have ALL the things I've missed, so I am not going to upgrade my Max license, instead I'll go for core when it's released in Q4 as estimated. Maybe I can't wait that long, time will show.

Anyway, stop complaining about ANYTHING related to Core, as this is a Grand Opening, that will finally allow artists to use equally or better software than the competition for a fraction of the cost! :D

It will finally be the Horde vs. the Alliance or should I say :2guns:Autodesk
We are off course the Horde.
Armored differently, but equally powerful.:devil:

I love what I've seen up until now, and I will continue to push this point of view.

If people don't want to pay for software, then it will disappear, and we'll be stuck in the moment, using a stagnant version of Autodesk X.

So please: BUY THE UPGRADE :thumbsup:

regularfry
02-05-2009, 05:08 AM
You want new features? The ones that instantly grabbed me were Linux support, the modifier and history stacks, the unified editor and the SWIG wrappers. These are things that people have been complaining about *forever*.

Oh, and Python, but given SWIG that's almost irrelevant - good to know there's a default supported option, though. Also, it's good that the default supported option has a bytecode-compiled option for the commercial plugin developers :-)

Chrizto
02-05-2009, 05:11 AM
You want new features? The ones that instantly grabbed me were Linux support

Well this isn't a feature, it's a new program...

safetyman
02-05-2009, 05:29 AM
I think before the haters pass judgement, we should get ALL the facts. This was merely a teaser (like a movie teaser before the official trailer comes out). Don't donk it off before you've seen everything that it can do. Granted, the presentation was low quality and you couldn't see much, but that was the kinda the point -- not to give you everything now, but just a taste.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 05:35 AM
I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdow

Wow, what a slap in the face to Newtek. So much complaining, so much whining for the last 8 years I've been around about how this doesn't work and that doesn't work and this isn't integrated and this feature won't work with this feature. Well dry my little eyes and book frickin hoo that you don't get to see everything all in one day.

Wah, wah, wah....Sorry, but you don't get any tissues from me.

tawolf
02-05-2009, 05:43 AM
Hello everyone;

I missed something I guess, did he say something about a new shirt?

If so then I will have to adjust my upgrade budget to reflect the changes to my clothing budget, if the shirt has an approximate value of $15 then I'm in.

I never saw a python before RF4 but I'm glad to be getting a new one of those too.

I 'm really happy to see that we are adjusting to the light.

TAWOLF :D

Chrizto
02-05-2009, 06:12 AM
Children. Infantile creatures of constant plague and suffering.
Go make your own software, or ask your mom for an upgrade.

*****ing about this is stupid.

regularfry
02-05-2009, 06:34 AM
You want new features? The ones that instantly grabbed me were Linux support, the modifier and history stacks, the unified editor and the SWIG wrappers. These are things that people have been complaining about *forever*.
Ooh, forgot one - instancing. That's a biggy.

evolross
02-05-2009, 06:52 AM
Yeah, a teaser they want you to immediately pay for! :stumped:


I think before the haters pass judgement, we should get ALL the facts. This was merely a teaser (like a movie teaser before the official trailer comes out). Don't donk it off before you've seen everything that it can do. Granted, the presentation was low quality and you couldn't see much, but that was the kinda the point -- not to give you everything now, but just a taste.

tawolf
02-05-2009, 07:00 AM
I'm still wondering about the shirt, do you think we can choose our size or is it a "one size fits all" deal. So many issues were not covered, like can I build a gui to replace my whole desktop, will it have a spell checker, will it run dos, my, my so, so many unanswered questions.

:foreheads

3DGFXStudios
02-05-2009, 07:30 AM
No screen grabs or closeup shots of the current UI on any of the CORE pages makes me wonder if the product is real. The video was poor in quality, not too mention that no real feature was presented during the launch let down. I mean nothing of any real significance was showcased. OK, the UI can change, well I think it can anyway, the video was so poor you really couldn't tell. That said, there's nothing earth shattering about this feature, other applications have had this capability for a long time. What else? The stack, the edit plane, that you can move menus and tool bars around? Again, SO WHAT? Sure the discussion promised a lot, spoke of a bright future, open SDK (promised for years) python scripting, but why wasn't the presentation more thorough? Why didn't we see anything more substantial, either related to modeling, animating, or rendering? If you want to sell this thing, shouldn't you have been more thorough, told the full story, or at least more than 1% of 1% of the story? SHOW ME!

If they couldn't demonstrate anything more than this after two years of development, how long before there's an actual full feature rich working beta? What was showcased today wasn't 1% of what the current LW is capable of doing.

And another thing; WOW, if that wasn't the most pathetic product launch in history it has to be inline for honorable mention. This looks like it was planned 13 days ago, and didn't get put in the can until this morning. The build up was perfect, the countdown, the mystery behind this new experience, the punchline however, was terrible, ill conceived and to be brutally honest, a total amateur disaster. Actually, this gives amateur disasters a bad name.. Who uses an engineer to launch a new product? Where was your marketing department, does Newtek have a marketing department? This guy couldn't have been more stiff if he was deceased. It was amateur in every way, and quite frankly came across like a plea for money, nothing more.

I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdow

Throw yourself off a bridge! It was awesome!

Fausto
02-05-2009, 08:10 AM
Wow, what a slap in the face to Newtek. So much complaining, so much whining for the last 8 years I've been around about how this doesn't work and that doesn't work and this isn't integrated and this feature won't work with this feature. Well dry my little eyes and book frickin hoo that you don't get to see everything all in one day.

Wah, wah, wah....Sorry, but you don't get any tissues from me.

Here's the gist of my comment, or did you miss this?



If you want to sell this thing, shouldn't you have been more thorough, told the full story, or at least more than 1% of 1% of the story? SHOW ME!

If they couldn't demonstrate anything more than this after two years of development, how long before there's an actual full feature rich working beta? What was showcased today wasn't 1% of what the current LW is capable of doing.


Did you read where I was complaining about the price, timetable, feature PROMISES anything other than their POOR attempt at marketing a product that I have 7 years invested in? Every single time someone expresses their opinion that suggests Newtek could, should improve this way or that, you're there with your messianic complex to save the day.. As consumers we have the right to question what we're being sold. I wouldn't buy an MP3 player (about the same price) if I hadn't ever seen it, or tried it out, or at least given a brochure on it that wasn't just specs!

Newtek missed the boat here, the first opportunity to make the best impression. The presentation was as anti climactic as it could have been.
By the way, I don't buy that something happened to the original presentation so they came up with this last minute.. What could happen to do this? If this was the case, they're incompetent and shouldn't be trusted to accomplish anything.

Fausto
02-05-2009, 08:13 AM
Throw yourself off a bridge! It was awesome!

Brilliant come back!!

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 08:24 AM
Every single time someone expresses their opinion that suggests Newtek could, should improve this way or that, you're there with your messianic complex to save the day..

Hardly, I've been just as big a critic of Newtek and Lightwave in the past as anyone.
You've seen the first video on Lightwave core and you're already writing it off as vaporware. Considering how much work has been done at the same time on 9.x, you'd think they could get the benefit of the doubt.

Fausto
02-05-2009, 08:39 AM
Hardly, I've been just as big a critic of Newtek and Lightwave in the past as anyone.
You've seen the first video on Lightwave core and you're already writing it off as vaporware. Considering how much work has been done at the same time on 9.x, you'd think they could get the benefit of the doubt.

If you compare what Newtek put out as their product launch with any product launch by their competitors (ICE for one example) and then read what I wrote again, you'll see that wondering if the product is going to be ready in weeks is prudent thinking.

I thought that NT was finally turning the corner, the web site is looking great, there's tons of FREE training for new users to get up to speed, or shoppers to see what's really there. The forum has been upgraded, participation seems to be back on the rise, things looked promising. Then this disaster hits the airwaves..
By a long margin it's the worst product launch event attempt I've seen in 20 years. It makes me (a marketer) cringe and worry at the same time if NT has a future. Where in the h**l were the NT marketing folks when this was paraded in front of management?

AbnRanger
02-05-2009, 08:39 AM
Yeah, a teaser they want you to immediately pay for! :stumped:Just who is making you buy it?
I really want to know.

Newtek blew me away with this....and I've been using Max almost exclusively during the v9 cycle (waiting to see what improvements LW10 would bring)...and I was expecting some nice improvements to the current LW architecture...hoping that they would integrate Modeler and Layout.

They didn't just overhaul LW....they re-wrote the entire program! Notice that the gentleman demonstrating the new modeling UI and functions was the LW CORE dev manager. From what I understand, that means he was leading the parallel development of this entirely new architecture/program, while Chuck was leading the dev of the old.

So far, this is far exceeding what I was expecting, yet sure enough, I knew there would be some on here that would find something to hold a b!tchfest over. :cry::cry:

Some people just aren't happy unless they can find something to feed their misery. :screwy:

Fausto
02-05-2009, 08:54 AM
Just who is making you buy it?
I really want to know.

Newtek blew me away with this....and I've been using Max almost exclusively during the v9 cycle (waiting to see what improvements LW10 would bring)...and I was expecting some nice improvements to the current LW architecture...hoping that they would integrate Modeler and Layout.

They didn't just overhaul LW....they re-wrote the entire program! Notice that the gentleman demonstrating the new modeling UI and functions was the LW CORE dev manager. From what I understand, that means he was leading the parallel development of this entirely new architecture/program, while Chuck was leading the dev of the old.

So far, this is far exceeding what I was expecting, yet sure enough, I knew there would be some on here that would find something to hold a b!tchfest over. :cry::cry:

Some people just aren't happy unless they can find something to feed their misery. :screwy:


If you can honestly say that this compares to the launches of other products, including those done by XSI, Luxology and Autodesk, then you need to get your seeing-eye-dog's prescription upgraded. And if given simple textual/verbal information of what's to come is adequate for you terrific, congratulations. Personally, I need to see more before I buy anything.. I'm not pooh poohing the promise, I'm just not impressed by a 3 minute demonstration sell job poor in quality and short of verifiable substance. If you have that much faith in NT, good for you, I'm not with you.

As for being miserable, you don't know me, you have know idea of my circumstances or sense of self. So give the personal attacks a rest.

Mike_RB
02-05-2009, 09:00 AM
It was ultra overhyped, and the video was underwhelming. So far this has left a bad impression. Core, when properly presented with new features have haven't been in 3dsMAX since v1 might be interesting, their tech faq would have stood alone better than be paired with this video. I await more information.

mav3rick
02-05-2009, 09:02 AM
... but Lightwave is not anymore developed, Modo is still growing. If you mean LightwaveCore, than show me the features! Did we have unlimited renderNodes? Are the modeling tools better than Lightwave?

chuck said 999 nodes so that means yes still unlimited nodes

cresshead
02-05-2009, 09:04 AM
read>>

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94787

praa
02-05-2009, 09:28 AM
If you can honestly say that this compares to the launches of other products, including those done by XSI, Luxology and Autodesk, then you need to get your seeing-eye-dog's prescription upgraded.

youppi for marketing hype ...
i don't give a flying f*ck about how their marketing looks
or their offices look
or their hair
or their prison p*ssy beard...

autodesk products suck and cost an arm and a leg

xsi is dead and has been sold for mere peanuts (what did their adolescent hoody marketing give them ???)

luxology ... well we'll see about them in a year or so i wouldn't invest in them now... even if brad is more appealling

marketing is for wall street lovers :)

i need tools and i am happy to see the new newtek and their apparent total openness to open standards

keep newtek free of speculative minds and trimestrial reports!!!

Randog
02-05-2009, 09:41 AM
Wow! Who pissed in your morning cornflakes?


No screen grabs or closeup shots of the current UI on any of the CORE pages makes me wonder if the product is real. The video was poor in quality, not too mention that no real feature was presented during the launch let down. I mean nothing of any real significance was showcased. OK, the UI can change, well I think it can anyway, the video was so poor you really couldn't tell. That said, there's nothing earth shattering about this feature, other applications have had this capability for a long time. What else? The stack, the edit plane, that you can move menus and tool bars around? Again, SO WHAT? Sure the discussion promised a lot, spoke of a bright future, open SDK (promised for years) python scripting, but why wasn't the presentation more thorough? Why didn't we see anything more substantial, either related to modeling, animating, or rendering? If you want to sell this thing, shouldn't you have been more thorough, told the full story, or at least more than 1% of 1% of the story? SHOW ME!

If they couldn't demonstrate anything more than this after two years of development, how long before there's an actual full feature rich working beta? What was showcased today wasn't 1% of what the current LW is capable of doing.

And another thing; WOW, if that wasn't the most pathetic product launch in history it has to be inline for honorable mention. This looks like it was planned 13 days ago, and didn't get put in the can until this morning. The build up was perfect, the countdown, the mystery behind this new experience, the punchline however, was terrible, ill conceived and to be brutally honest, a total amateur disaster. Actually, this gives amateur disasters a bad name.. Who uses an engineer to launch a new product? Where was your marketing department, does Newtek have a marketing department? This guy couldn't have been more stiff if he was deceased. It was amateur in every way, and quite frankly came across like a plea for money, nothing more.

I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdow

anim8r
02-05-2009, 09:51 AM
Call me crazy, but I just joined the HardCore ranks =]

w00t! Free wallpaper lol.

cresshead
02-05-2009, 09:52 AM
Call me crazy, but I just joined the HardCore ranks =]

w00t! Free wallpaper lol.

same here...got my desktop cored now!
just need to figure where to login to the special forum....:help:

CAClark
02-05-2009, 09:56 AM
With all the will in the world, hobbyist aren't ever going to be a priority, and the large part of them use cracked copies anyway I'm sure. I didn;t say all, so no-one need get excited about that statement BTW.

Cheers!

CAClark
02-05-2009, 09:58 AM
.....pissed in your morning cornflakes?

Now THAT would be something worth being annoyed over! haha

I think the whole thing while a little hap-hazzard as ever is pretty exciting.

Cheers!

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 10:15 AM
Wow! Who pissed in your morning cornflakes?

I haven't heard that expression in quite some time. I nearly spit in mine after reading that.

jbavar
02-05-2009, 11:09 AM
I agree regarding the presentation. They could have used the faq and spec sheet with a few screen grabs and got a much better reaction. But I think NT is moving in the right direction. If you look at the Maya screen of any artist working at on a major production you'll see mel buttons all along the shelf. With Core's full access sdk, studios can bring in the programmers to make the tools do what they need. This is huge. Of course, Core has to mature and stabilize very quickly to a production level but given the price point and free render nodes and its quality of render, its a no brainer.

adamredwoods
02-05-2009, 11:17 AM
If you compare what Newtek put out as their product launch with any product launch by their competitors (ICE for one example) and then read what I wrote again, you'll see that wondering if the product is going to be ready in weeks is prudent thinking.


While the presentation was one thing, I do feel they showed us something that still had a long ways to go-- otherwise they'd shown us more.

Since Lightwave's core has changed, it is still valid to ask what is Lightwave's functionality going to be like? Workflow? Nothing ever stays the same, so technical capabilities are still relevant questions.

Jockomo
02-05-2009, 11:22 AM
Core, increase the lw price, no ? I'm an hobbist. So i should sell my lightwave v9 copy. I can't follow this. I can't pay the upgrade with my low budget ! Lightwave price and community was so fantastic ! I don't understand really what'is Core. A new commercial politic ?

Yes you should. The community and software you are looking for is blender.

It's free, perfect for hobbiests

monovich
02-05-2009, 11:25 AM
The thing is called CORE right? They are emphasizing the core rewrite, not all the other features - so far.

Im sure you'll be able to do anything you can do in 9.6 in Core. Its not like they will start stripping features. People would jump ship faster than you can turn a 3 into an E.

The beta will answer the questions soon enough. I'll be in if only for the sake if curiosity at first.

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 11:34 AM
Yes you should. The community and software you are looking for is blender.

It's free, perfect for hobbiests

The snobbery in some of these posts is quite amazing. You make it sound as though hobbyists are not worthy to use your wonderful product.

If you already have LW9, why sell it? Nobody is forcing you to upgrade to LW10/Core. Even if you stick with LW9, it will do more than Blender ever will, and do it better. Just because LW10 is realeased, doesn't mean that LW9 will stop working.

That's what I'm going to do. I'm a hobbyist, and I've bought almost every upgrade since the first ever version on the PC (I still have my 4.0 cds), and am currently on v9.6. I doubt I will get the Core upgrade. The price is a bit steep for my humble pocket, and it's a joke asking customers to pay for something when we don't even know what it is we are buying (especially in the current financial climate). Only the most rabid Newtek "fanboy" would do that...

Given the bad experiences I've had with SpeedEdit, I don't hold up much hope for a completely rewritten Lightwave. Evolution is one thing. A complete rewrite is another...

AbnRanger
02-05-2009, 11:34 AM
Yes you should. The community and software you are looking for is blender.

It's free, perfect for hobbiests:agree: Blender is a Cadillac for Hobbyists, and it makes too little sense to complain about the pricing structure of a mature, commercial 3D application, when you have one that is very close to it that is free...legally.

mac
02-05-2009, 11:56 AM
Wow, what a slap in the face to Newtek. So much complaining, so much whining for the last 8 years I've been around about how this doesn't work and that doesn't work and this isn't integrated and this feature won't work with this feature. Well dry my little eyes and book frickin hoo that you don't get to see everything all in one day.

Wah, wah, wah....Sorry, but you don't get any tissues from me.


I agree 100% :agree: :lwicon: Rocks

Jockomo
02-05-2009, 12:04 PM
You make it sound as though hobbyists are not worthy to use your wonderful product.

Lightwave is not a toy it is a professional tool. If they price it like a toy they will not be able to afford to continue to develop it as a top notch professional tool.

This wonderful product pays for itself many times over in a single job. Despite all of the criticism; 99% of the time lightwave is a rock solid tool that I love to work with. After 17 years of experience with this product I don't want to see it go down the toilet just to appease some hobbiests.

I've said this so many times, i might as well make it my sig...
Trying compete with Blender to be the low price leader of 3d software is a deathwish.

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 12:20 PM
Lightwave is not a toy it is a professional tool.

Who said it was a toy? :stumped:

I take issue with the fact that people who use this product as a hobby are being told that they should abandon it because free products are better suited. Who are you to judge? Perhaps some of us would be happy to pay the upgrade price if the software is good enough.


If they price it like a toy they will not be able to afford to continue to develop it as a top notch professional tool.

Possibly. Possibly not. I am fully aware how much it costs to write professional software (after all, that's what I do for a living). I do take issue however with being asked to fork out a large chunk of money for something that I know nothing about. Very odd business practice that.


99% of the time lightwave is a rock solid tool that I love to work with.

That is true, although I find that Modeler 9.6 seems to crash rather a lot. I save often these days.


After 17 years of experience with this product I don't want to see it go down the toilet just to appease some hobbiests.

Who said it should.


Trying compete with Blender to be the low price leader of 3d software is a deathwish.

I agree completely. This Core thing (whatever it might be) won't stop me using LW9. What worries me is that it's a complete rewrite not an evolution of existing code, which they are unwilling (or unable) to demo, and are asking a big chunk of cash for in advance. Who to say they the product you end up with will be as good as LW9. After all, it is essentially a new product by the sound of it.

I have had bad experiences with certain other Newtek products (SpeedEdit), and so am unwilling to fork out for something which I know nothing about from a company which can at times produce dodgy software.

shaun_michael
02-05-2009, 12:23 PM
same here...got my desktop cored now!
just need to figure where to login to the special forum....:help:

If you haven't already, go to the registration page and register your Core as a new product. You'll be mailed a link to the forum, but it isn't up and running just yet by the looks of it.

Thats as far as I've got, oh, and the desktops are all cored up too (its a bit sad really, but fun all the same)

Shaun

Alliante
02-05-2009, 12:24 PM
I just joined the "HardCore ranks" as well, I thought the upgrade price was quite appealing. I was worried at first that it was just that for the 'beta' run, but it also includes the final version, which is a win-win situation as I can help with the beta and send my feedback for any bugs (I'll probably be one of the busiest Linux users).

masterchief
02-05-2009, 12:37 PM
What was cost of upgrade to go from v8.5 to v9.0 .... we are in same ballpark here. sheesh! I feel cost is more than reasonable. make the choice that best suits you now... then you can pay later...

only exception I can take presently is that subscription start date should not begin until FINAL release... purchase NOW and you get 1yr subscription from Dec 2009 or whenever the product actually ships.... as we know schedules slide

I am order number 5730... does that mean over $2.2 million in sales already?????

regards,
William

Paul_Boland
02-05-2009, 12:43 PM
Hi Folks.

I had access to the Newtek Lightwave Core countdown site yesterday till eight minutes before zero and then I lost the page. After that, I couldn't get back in till now so I missed the video. I have visited the site and read the FAQ and other bits but I'm still lost. What is Lightwave Core? From the sound of the stuff on the website, it sounds like Lightwave is going the way of XSI 7 with a graphical node based programming interface but what else it has I don't know. Can anyone shed some light on it for us who missed the presentation?

GandB
02-05-2009, 12:45 PM
There was a link that someone gave up for the video, Paul...but I've lost it. You would think that NT would place that link directly on the CORE page???

masterchief
02-05-2009, 12:49 PM
you can view TWO videos on youtube... search for Lightwave core

Jockomo
02-05-2009, 12:54 PM
Who said it was a toy? :stumped:
Perhaps some of us would be happy to pay the upgrade price if the software is good enough.

... I do take issue however with being asked to fork out a large chunk of money for something that I know nothing about. Very odd business practice that.

...and so am unwilling to fork out for something which I know nothing about from a company which can at times produce dodgy software.

I must have missed the part where NewTek said all lightwave 9x licenses would expire when the core open beta starts. I also must have missed the part where Chuck Baker was going to show up at your house and break your arms unless you upgrade.

As a hobbiest; WTF are you *****ing about exactly? Are you trying to tell me that you have run out of things to do in LW9x? Who is forcing you to join the beta? If you don't like it, don't join. It's simple.

masterchief
02-05-2009, 12:56 PM
LOL... well put jockomo

I am quite pleased actually...

Wade
02-05-2009, 01:01 PM
Core, increase the lw price, no ? I'm an hobbist. So i should sell my lightwave v9 copy. I can't follow this. I can't pay the upgrade with my low budget ! Lightwave price and community was so fantastic ! I don't understand really what'is Core. A new commercial politic ?



It will only cost you 395.00 bucks form 9.6 or 495.00 from an older version. 895.00 if you own photoshop... 1,495.00 if you are new to everthing. Seems like a deal to me.

Oh you get LW 9.6 and whatever upgrades and bug fixes they make over the next few months. A class act on the part of NT or so I think.

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 01:03 PM
As a hobbiest; WTF are you *****ing about exactly? Are you trying to tell me that you have run out of things to do in LW9x? Who is forcing you to join the beta? If you don't like it, don't join. It's simple.

Swearing never helped anybody :)

If you actually read the post rather than ranting you will see that is exactly what I said. You were the one suggesting that hobbiests shouldn't be using the product (even if we are willing to pay the price - which I am incidentally, providing it is worth it).

What I can't understand is being asked to pay a large amount of money up front without knowing anything about what we are getting (other than a t-shirt), especially when Newtek's track record for stable software isn't great. They seem to be making a very large number of changes all at the same time, including adding an additional platform. I've been writing professional software for the last 15 years, and complete rewrites are never good news from a "bug-free" and "developers getting any sleep" perspective.

We need facts Newtek. When I know what I'll be getting, I'll show you some cash :)

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 01:06 PM
LOL... well put jockomo

This used to be such a friendly community. I wonder what happened :(

Doesn't seem too unreasonable to know what I'll be getting for my money before spending it...

Wade
02-05-2009, 01:06 PM
What was cost of upgrade to go from v8.5 to v9.0 .... we are in same ballpark here. sheesh! I feel cost is more than reasonable. make the choice that best suits you now... then you can pay later...

only exception I can take presently is that subscription start date should not begin until FINAL release... purchase NOW and you get 1yr subscription from Dec 2009 or whenever the product actually ships.... as we know schedules slide

I am order number 5730... does that mean over $2.2 million in sales already?????

regards,
William



I 2nd and am paided up to. !!!

doimus
02-05-2009, 01:07 PM
Hey, now I KNOW Lightwave Core is going to be BIG!


How do I know that?
Fell, for start, LW forums are starting to look like Autodesk forums, with bunch of people whining about nothing instead of linux support and/or instancing.
Next one is probably going to say he's dropping LW unless VRay is ported till March 31.

Edit: Oh, and I'm upgrading as soon as my money stack reaches 395 mark.

JBT27
02-05-2009, 01:09 PM
What was cost of upgrade to go from v8.5 to v9.0 .... we are in same ballpark here. sheesh! I feel cost is more than reasonable. make the choice that best suits you now... then you can pay later...

only exception I can take presently is that subscription start date should not begin until FINAL release... purchase NOW and you get 1yr subscription from Dec 2009 or whenever the product actually ships.... as we know schedules slide

I am order number 5730... does that mean over $2.2 million in sales already?????

regards,
William

Hmm, well, as the order thing wasn't working around 4 or 5 hours ago, that's a very significant order rate for that period.....incredible, actually :)

Hard to know.....but if people keep buying at this rate, and you actually are 5730, then by the weekend, NT will be able to shut its doors and all the staff retire ..... :eek:

Julian.

Jockomo
02-05-2009, 01:10 PM
I've been writing professional software for the last 15 years
We need facts Newtek. When I know what I'll be getting, I'll show you some cash :)

So let me ask you. Do you get paid before you are finished with a programming project?
Or does your boss/client wait until you are done and then pay you, only if they like it?

I think it has been so long since NewTek asked for money that some people think LW is open source.

Alliante
02-05-2009, 01:12 PM
#5855 here, would have ordered much earlier, but was in hospital (not for me) :(

No telling where the counter started... could have been 5800 from all we know.... or it could have started at 1000 (I usually start order numbers for new web carts for my customers at 1000 so they don't 'seem' so new).

Plus does it matter? As long as NewTek is happy for business I'm happy :)
Good business == keeping better developers and staff

parm
02-05-2009, 01:25 PM
I take issue with the fact that people who use this product as a hobby are being told that they should abandon it because free products are better suited. Who are you to judge? Perhaps some of us would be happy to pay the upgrade price if the software is good enough.

I wholly agree with you on that. After all money is money and DVDs are DVDs. The software costs the same to everyone, regardless of their personal usage.

Happily. I think with this pricing structure. Newtek are showing, that they do value the whole of their customer base. And the 'hardcore' program does afford a discounted upgrade path for hobbyists and casual users. The true professionals, will surely only want to use the full priced full release offerings of each update.

Don't forget, even with the pound as low as it is, there's still a price advantage by paying dollars.:) I'm in just on the grounds it's unified. 5748 :thumbsup:

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 01:32 PM
Don't forget, even with the pound as low as it is, there's still a price advantage by paying dollars.:) I'm in just on the grounds it's unified. 5748 :thumbsup:

True. Will Newtek let us upgrade via the USA from the UK though? Last time I upgraded I had to do it through Newtek Europe, (an experience in itself) and the Euro/Pound exchange rate is very bad at the minute.

For example, the LW9 upgrade is currently 395 Euros (before taxes). That translates to 506 USD at current rates.

Caveboy
02-05-2009, 01:32 PM
Hobbies aren't always viewed as free and easy. I think hobbies can be quite expensive. Lightwave is raising its bar and price. I hope it won't be losing too many hobbyists.

parm
02-05-2009, 01:34 PM
true. Will newtek let us upgrade via the usa from the uk though? Last time i upgraded i had to do it through newtek europe, (an experience in itself) and the euro/pound exchange rate is very bad at the minute.

yes!!!!

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 01:35 PM
Ooh, stop it. I'm getting tempted now :D

Paul_Boland
02-05-2009, 01:35 PM
you can view TWO videos on youtube... search for Lightwave core

Thanks, I've found them.

rakker16mm
02-05-2009, 01:59 PM
No screen grabs or closeup shots of the current UI on any of the CORE pages makes me wonder if the product is real.

Since you are wondering if this product is real perhaps then perhaps you could have chosen a better tittle for your thread. Like "Is Core Real or is it Just Smoke and Mirrors?"


The video was poor in quality, not too mention that no real feature was presented during the launch let down. I mean nothing of any real significance was showcased.

If you want to watch great presentation try http://www.hulu.com/. This is about the software not the presentation. You were obviously too distracted by the technical glitches to notice the new features. The message wasn't delivered perfectly but there were plenty of new features discussed.


OK, the UI can change, well I think it can anyway, the video was so poor you really couldn't tell. That said, there's nothing earth shattering about this feature, other applications have had this capability for a long time.

Sigh....


What else? The stack, the edit plane, that you can move menus and tool bars around? Again, SO WHAT? Sure the discussion promised a lot, spoke of a bright future, open SDK (promised for years) python scripting, but why wasn't the presentation more thorough? Why didn't we see anything more substantial, either related to modeling, animating, or rendering? If you want to sell this thing, shouldn't you have been more thorough, told the full story, or at least more than 1% of 1% of the story? SHOW ME!

I guess you missed the part where they said more information would be forthcoming. Perhaps you should wait until then before you start trashing the efforts of the development team. Now that I mention it, maybe you should wait until the software is out of beta :thumbsup:


If they couldn't demonstrate anything more than this after two years of development, how long before there's an actual full feature rich working beta? What was showcased today wasn't 1% of what the current LW is capable of doing.

Core was obviously being developed concurrently with 9.5 and 9.6. It's really amazing that that they are bringing this SO EARLY after the release of 9.6. I just downloaded that a few days ago! Last year when there was all the drama over 9.5 and people were saying they should just move on to version 10, I said it was likely that they were already working on version 10 as it was likely to be rewrite of the core. Apparently I was correct but I didn't expect to see 10 until about a year and a half from the release of 9.6 But if you want to complain.... go ahead.


And another thing; WOW, if that wasn't the most pathetic product launch in history it has to be inline for honorable mention. This looks like it was planned 13 days ago, and didn't get put in the can until this morning. The build up was perfect, the countdown, the mystery behind this new experience, the punchline however, was terrible, ill conceived and to be brutally honest, a total amateur disaster. Actually, this gives amateur disasters a bad name.. Who uses an engineer to launch a new product? Where was your marketing department, does Newtek have a marketing department? This guy couldn't have been more stiff if he was deceased. It was amateur in every way, and quite frankly came across like a plea for money, nothing more.

http://www.hulu.com/


I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdow

I'm really disappointed in how many people are so ready to trash Newtek before they have even put out the beta. This is worse than all nagging over 9.6.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 02:12 PM
I'm really disappointed in how many people are so ready to trash Newtek before they have even put out the beta. This is worse than all nagging over 9.6.

Which is pretty much why I responded so harshly at first. It was my first post of the day but it was after I was reading through several threads with a lot of the same comments in it. So if it means anything Fausto, that initial post on your thread wasn't entirely reacting to you, just an overall sense of bewilderment that people are dismissing something they haven't used yet. It's not like they told us one day we'd get it, Jay said we'd have it in our hands in a matter of weeks so you would think that people would be happy that right after 9.6 is released, they have a version 10 just about ready for release to beta. Nobody else thinks that's impressive? Nobody else wants to take a wait and see attitude?

devin
02-05-2009, 02:13 PM
My issue is not w/ the presentation or what has been described and/or shown up to this point. Newtek is once again asking us to trust them and take the leap w/o a finished product. That hasn't worked out so well for us, as users, in the past, not once but multiple times. They've been making inroads but still have a ways to go in regaining the trust of many. As a user, I'm sure that I'll upgrade my personal copy, esp. as they reveal more of the application. A harder sell, however, is getting management at my company to fork over the money to upgrade our seats based on what has been exhibited and explained so far, esp. in these trying times. Newtek really needs to address things further before March 31st as I'm sure they will.

I've been very pleased as of late w/ the new team and I'm very happy w/ my 9.6 experience so far. I'm just hopeful that the project lives up to the potential and the promises. Also, as long as the opinions in the forums aren't of a personal nature, I see no reason why ppl can't express them and others shouldn't be so quick to slap others on the wrist and take on the role of a disciplinarian.

BTW, I know that I can wait and pay $695 for a "finished" product but that's just not really realistic at this time, esp. when a full seat of the product is just a little over 2x the hefty (IMO) full upgrade price.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 02:20 PM
People are free to say what they want on these forums, it's not up to me to discipline anyone if that's what you're implying nor was it my intention. I was just trying to show some appreciation to Newtek for the work they've done on Core just so they know that some of the disparaging comments aren't shared by everyone.

devin
02-05-2009, 02:33 PM
All will be well in the end, I'm sure. We're all in the same boat by choice, even if it's been a leaky boat at times. Some have been dismayed w/ the leaks and others proud that it's simply kept them afloat. I'm just looking forward to climbing into that shiny new vessel that sits on the horizon.


...and please excuse my feeble attempt to wax poetic.

Fausto
02-05-2009, 02:40 PM
What is it with the low reading comprehension on this forum. Listen, I'll try and make this as plain and as simple as humanly possible.

1) Newtek want me, and others to invest in their future, sight unseen for the most part.
2) They want me to take that leap of faith (remember they've put a time limit on the decision) without knowing what I'm really investing in. There is no real example of how efficiently their CORE plans have been executed. Saying you're going to do something, or add this or that feature is far different from having it well programmed and easy to use. The PRESENTATION, the MARKETING exercise they started 14 days ago, was planned by Newtek, to be the KICK OFF.. Well what we saw, how it was presented, was no where near what the task required.

The presentation was their first opportunity to really develop a CLEAR, SOUND, MOTIVATING business argument for taking that leap..

They failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned. You saw it differently, good for you. My experience tells me that I need to see more, and experience more before I'm going to take the plunge. The presentation was feeble, unrehearsed, sketchy and lacked substance. Newtek themselves acknowledge they did a POOR job.

dballesg
02-05-2009, 03:27 PM
What is it with the low reading comprehension on this forum. Listen, I'll try and make this as plain and as simple as humanly possible.

1) Newtek want me, and others to invest in their future, sight unseen for the most part.
2) They want me to take that leap of faith (remember they've put a time limit on the decision) without knowing what I'm really investing in. There is no real example of how efficiently their CORE plans have been executed. Saying you're going to do something, or add this or that feature is far different from having it well programmed and easy to use. The PRESENTATION, the MARKETING exercise they started 14 days ago, was planned by Newtek, to be the KICK OFF.. Well what we saw, how it was presented, was no where near what the task required.

The presentation was their first opportunity to really develop a CLEAR, SOUND, MOTIVATING business argument for taking that leap..

They failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned. You saw it differently, good for you. My experience tells me that I need to see more, and experience more before I'm going to take the plunge. The presentation was feeble, unrehearsed, sketchy and lacked substance. Newtek themselves acknowledge they did a POOR job.

Fausto, your 1st point is true, but nothing makes you jump on the bandwagon right now.

You have time until the 31st of March to decide. There is still 52 days at least. And if you decide to wait more, the increase is 100$. That is a very small difference on price.

I am waiting for other reasons a couple of weeks to update, but I am really interested on see what else they had under their sleeves.

On your 2nd point, I know by sure I do not want another presentation like that. So please :newtek: forgot the streaming events.

I prefer and off line video, well executed and edited, and over everything else, well scripted (very important), and with better resolution, i:e: clear image and sound.

David

lwanmtr
02-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Reading alot on pricing...$395 (til 03/31) is the same as it has been for a long time..$495 is also in the same range..in fact I remember paying $495 for 7.5. Even $695 is not unreasonable for major upgrades...its still less than the others. $1495 for Core is reasonable if it offers what it promises...LW has fluctuated in price..at one time it was $1895. I personally think they arent being unreasonable here.

I've said this in another thread, but LW users have had it a bit easy for the last 3 years, as we've gotten every upgrade since 9.0 for free, despite some really great improvements.
On the issue of paying the $395 now..that gets you basically into the Open Beta program, which really helped the 9.x cycle..users can help track bugs and in some cases suggest features and workflow changes...this will help the officila Core release be what it promises...again, the other s/w developers dont have this kind of customer interaction..anyone from hobbyists to hollyweird pros can be involved in the development process.

Yes, the presentation wasn't really all it coulda been..but then I look at it as an introduction..not a final product release..Im sure they're trying to plan something for Siggraph (hopefully it doesnt turn out like the 9.5 release..hehe)

As for complaining that 'the other apps can already......' Remember, Core is a complete rewrite..LW kinda got stalled due to team changes and such..and they've been working for over 2 years on getting the new system going.

I for one will be joining HardCore as soon as I get funds..I have stuck with LW since it's earliest days, and now we have a shot at being able to finally get AD products out of the pipeline

Jockomo
02-05-2009, 04:09 PM
Fausto,


I must have missed the part where NewTek said all lightwave 9x licenses would expire when the core open beta starts. I also must have missed the part where Chuck Baker was going to show up at your house and break your arms unless you upgrade.


I'll make this as simple and clear as possible for you too. If you don't want to send them money till you see the final product, then just don't do it. Nobody cares if you are not sold on an unfinished product so just STFU already.

DonJMyers
02-05-2009, 04:16 PM
1) Newtek want me, and others to invest in their future, sight unseen for the most part..

I think you are getting awfully downbeat about a $400 investment in a tool I've been using for over a decade. What is $400 to me in Hollywood for the next version of a critical tool? Why should I stop using it now? WHy would Newtek stop making it now? I like supporting Newtek and I like their products. Is your name a reference to somebody who sells his soul? Are you an employee of Autodesk?

All this negativity. Sigh. On the website boards I go to where we fight Scientology I am given death threats and my personal info is posted. Is this board going to get like that?

Fausto
02-05-2009, 04:23 PM
I think you are getting awfully downbeat about a $400 investment in a tool I've been using for over a decade. What is $400 to me in Hollywood for the next version of a critical tool? Why should I stop using it now? WHy would Newtek stop making it now? I like supporting Newtek and I like their products. Is your name a reference to somebody who sells his soul? Are you an employee of Autodesk?

All this negativity. Sigh. On the website boards I go to where we fight Scientology I am given death threats and my personal info is posted. Is this board going to get like that?

You're missing the point, I SO wanted this presentation to be GOOD, to have some substance. It's not about the dough, it's about missing the opportunity!!!

Fausto
02-05-2009, 04:24 PM
Fausto,




I'll make this as simple and clear as possible for you too. If you don't want to send them money till you see the final product, then just don't do it. Nobody cares if you are not sold on an unfinished product so just STFU already.


Grow up!

Kuzey
02-05-2009, 04:24 PM
All this negativity. Sigh. On the website boards I go to where we fight Scientology I am given death threats and my personal info is posted. Is this board going to get like that?

Is that like a hobby or something to break the tension of working on tight deadlines etc. :D

Kuzey

geothefaust
02-05-2009, 04:29 PM
You're missing the point, I SO wanted this presentation to be GOOD, to have some substance. It's not about the dough, it's about missing the opportunity!!!

Who gives a rats *** man? Why do you care about the video so much? Let it go! The product WILL speak for itself.

Stooch
02-05-2009, 04:31 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/5yxcu0.jpg

catrilige.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 04:38 PM
1) Newtek want me, and others to invest in their future, sight unseen for the most part.
2) They want me to take that leap of faith (remember they've put a time limit on the decision) without knowing what I'm really investing in. There is no real example of how efficiently their CORE plans have been executed. Saying you're going to do something, or add this or that feature is far different from having it well programmed and easy to use. The PRESENTATION, the MARKETING exercise they started 14 days ago, was planned by Newtek, to be the KICK OFF.. Well what we saw, how it was presented, was no where near what the task required.



They're not requiring that you do anything. Buy in now and experience the beta as it's being developed further or buy in later. It will cost you more later but you still have that option. I don't think there was any mention of a KICK OFF. They did mention the word reveal though and even though they haven't revealed much, it was still a reveal. After all, we now know it's a full application and it's the next generation LW and they're giving the option to get in on it early. Don't take it if you don't like it. Be disappointed grumpy man.

Fausto
02-05-2009, 04:39 PM
Needless confrontational remarks removed.

geothefaust
02-05-2009, 04:46 PM
Needless confrontational reply removed.

ChrisW
02-05-2009, 04:46 PM
On the website it says that you can EITHER become a member of "the HardCore team", or pay for upgrades the traditional way. I would imagine the benefit of the membership were the exclusive forums and tech access, and the mini-upgrades like we've been receiving.
If this was mentioned in the thread already I apologize, but I got tired of trolling thru the mire and skipped to the last page...

geothefaust
02-05-2009, 04:47 PM
On the website it says that you can EITHER become a member of "the HardCore team", or pay for upgrades the traditional way. I would imagine the benefit of the membership were the exclusive forums and tech access, and the mini-upgrades like we've been receiving.
If this was mentioned in the thread already I apologize, but I got tired of trolling thru the mire and skipped to the last page...

You sir are correct. Plus a few more benefits. It seems to be a great idea to me.

adamredwoods
02-05-2009, 04:57 PM
Now I remember why I spend so little time posting on this or any other forum. It truely is a waste of time trying to convince people of your POV, or helping people understand what they obviously haven't understood in reading the post..
[...]


Lessons we all learn after posting on the forums.
1. dont take anything personally, have a thick skin
2. state your opinion, but know that someone will disagree with you
3. don't try to force your opinion onto others
4. In a NewTek forum, there will be a lot of fans for Lightwave Core who will call you names, disagree with you, and try to make you love LWCore (see #1, 2, 3)

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 04:58 PM
So let me ask you. Do you get paid before you are finished with a programming project?

The proceeds of the previous programming project (plus licensing schemes and consulting) fund the next one. We don't charge customers for something that they can't have yet. Been that way for 30+ years...

mav3rick
02-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Grow up!

well fausto what are you discussing with us? we are all aware of what happened... if you are not interested into lw nothin will help you .. go modo change app or whatever... i mean 400 is steal for app that core is targeted to be... yes newtek need money .. i would rather invest money in them than in luxology as i did 7 years ago with modo 101.
Since than MODO didnt move too far away even if they promises MOUNTAINS at beginning (reminds me of days when they were still working for newtek)... btw modo 101 cost me 400 $ exactly as CORE now and it was just a modeler...

i make money out of lightwave every day... great money... i have payoff my lw licence tousand of times already i really dont see problem in 400 $.. and most of all i want to be there from day 1 of beta of LW core just to be sure i am with all those great COMMUNITY guys that will help newtek do application we all wait for decade. they need our help just as we need new lightwave.. sitting back in dark will not help them at all,and once core is out you will start flaming HOW this is not working the way you want it to work...
presentation was bad from visually aspect but not technically.. they will fix that for sure i dont mind it. it is more of how engineers put so much knowledge into new core to make it be able to do what is described in technical paper. ofcourse we all know it is YET to be seen but newtek is aware this time they cant screw up with promisses... 9.6 was great example that they keep promisse. at least this is enough for me to give them a chance for core.
once more
we are talkin about 400 bucks... big deal ... i spent that money on lot less smart things in my life

adamredwoods
02-05-2009, 04:59 PM
[...]

catrilige.

...awesomely hilarious!

Earl
02-05-2009, 05:16 PM
Yeah, a teaser they want you to immediately pay for! :stumped:
Uh, no one is forcing you to pay right now. NewTek is kinda cool, in the sense that they allow users who are pumped to save money by pre-ordering, and while saving money they also get early access to the software. How many companies do that? And you're complaining? Sheesh.

==========

I really don't understand. LightWave is getting THE best upgrade/re-write we could possibly ask for. Better than much of the speculation (there was some speculation that didn't get met, but not much). Yet people are still complaining!! I can understand if maybe a feature you've wanted isn't being talked about. Nothing wrong with that, and voicing your desire for certain features is perfectly legit. Even discussing the price hike is reasonable (though I still think it's a great value, even at the new price). But b*tching because the software is getting massively better, and at a reasonably fast rate, just doesn't make sense.

It's as if people don't want their software to evolve, because they fear that if the software got better and they didn't get better then they wouldn't be able to blame the software anymore. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it comes off as.

==========

Oh, and smoke and mirrors? Really? <sarcasm>Yeah, because NewTek is a fake company. No one actually works there. Totally made up. They've never released a quality product before. They make their money on vaporware. </sarcasm>Give me a break.

And here I thought NewTek has been around long enough and won enough awards to be beyond such ridiculous spam. I have no problem if people have (legitimate) complaints about the direction LW is going, features they feel need to be focused on, price, customer service, or even the marketing! But please... they don't give out Emmy's to "smoke and mirrors." :oye:


No screen grabs or closeup shots of the current UI on any of the CORE pages makes me wonder if the product is real.
I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdow
If this was supposed to be criticism of the marketing, it could have been made in a much better way.

lwanmtr
02-05-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm disapointed too...I called the pizza joint and they wanted me to pay for my pizza.

Btw..do you ever use your credit/debit card for pizza? Guess what, you're paying for something before you get it...so there. LOL

Earl
02-05-2009, 05:26 PM
Reading alot on pricing...$395 (til 03/31) is the same as it has been for a long time..$495 is also in the same range..in fact I remember paying $495 for 7.5. Even $695 is not unreasonable for major upgrades...its still less than the others. $1495 for Core is reasonable if it offers what it promises...LW has fluctuated in price..at one time it was $1895. I personally think they arent being unreasonable here.
Agreed. While my work pays for my office copy, I pay for my personal copy out of my own pocket (and for a time, I even paid for my work copy). The price point of LW has always been an important factor in its appeal.

I don't think a lot of people remember, but back with version 7.0, LightWave cost $2495! Considering the advancements made, $1450 is not bad for a new license, and $695 for an upgrade, while more than before, isn't that bad either - especially considering that you can skip as many upgrades as you like to lower that affective price.

Cageman
02-05-2009, 05:35 PM
What could happen to do this? If this was the case, they're incompetent and shouldn't be trusted to accomplish anything.

Yeah...right...

So.. they have a tool that you've used for 7 years and you still don't trust them being able to develop?

*sigh*

It seems like you and too many others totaly missed the point with Core. As a long time Maya/LW user I can tell that we are in for a treat when it comes to what Core is going to be able to deliver in terms of functionality, flexibility and speed. The presentation was more about the architecture than features...

DustinBrown
02-05-2009, 05:36 PM
To the original creator of this thread, that seems like a pretty vehement reaction. I hear what you're saying, NewTek's marketing efforts have been lacking as long as I've been using LightWave and paying attention, but that matters way less to me than the software itself. At the end of the day, will the next version of LightWave be a good fit in a professional production environment? Will it make my work process more intuitive and enjoyable once I've learned it? Is it fast? Is it extensible? Is it solid as a rock? Those are the questions I'll be asking myself in the coming months as NewTek releases more information.

I think that, perhaps, you're looking at this from a purely aesthetic standpoint, which is understandable since that's all you have to go on at the moment. Forget the crappy marketing and set aside pretty much everything they've told you thus far. To assume that this is a "next-gen" tool based on the ability to tear off menus is like saying a web page falls under Web 2.0 standards because all the corners are rounded off. That's idiotic. Be patient. Wait until they give us something of substance to chew on.

This was a bold move for NewTek, and I tip my hat to them for making it. However, I would venture to say that a hefty percentage of LightWave's user-base is currently using LightWave vs one of the other big three for two primary reasons: comfort zone and price. They just pulled the comfort zone rug out from under their folks' feet. I'm not saying the new UI, etc, etc aren't going to be superior....only that they will be different and that there will be a learning curve associated with that. As for price, they're increasing it. It leads me to wonder how many people, rather than spending the money, time, and effort learning this completely new LightWave, will see this as an opportunity to instead learn Maya which, let's face it, has more job seats associated with it.

I think it would be a really smart move for them to start coming up with some creative ways to incentivize their user-base not to jump ship. That's going to happen primarily in the aforementioned areas - helping with the learning curve, and not spooking our wallets. Maybe get William Vaughan to make a new set of video classrooms, he's a fantastic instructor and he's someone whom we're all familiar with; we know he can speak to us from the perspective of someone who has made the transition.

I wish NewTek all the best. I hope this goes well for them, and I hope the next full release proves to be an amazing tool and gives the other three a run for their money.

-Dustin Brown

Cageman
02-05-2009, 05:39 PM
Wow! Who pissed in your morning cornflakes?

:)

Long time since I saw you here Randog. Presentation issues aside, it would be very interresting to hear what your thoughts on Core is and where it is heading.

lwanmtr
02-05-2009, 05:40 PM
As for price, they're increasing it. It leads me to wonder how may people, rather than spending the money, time, and effort learning this completely new LightWave, will see this as an opportunity to instead learn Maya which, let's face it, has more job seats associated with it

I doubt that will be the situation because even with the price increase, LW is still less than 1/3 the price of Maya Unlimited.

Yes, there are more jobs posted for Maya..but the market is constantly changing, a few years ago, it was Max

Cageman
02-05-2009, 05:44 PM
If you compare what Newtek put out as their product launch with any product launch by their competitors (ICE for one example) and then read what I wrote again, you'll see that wondering if the product is going to be ready in weeks is prudent thinking.

Uh?

Core is scheduled to be released in Q4 this year.

however... it seems to be functional enough for curious users to toy with what is avaliable in a the comming weeks. If users are aware that what they get in a few weeks is very incomplete in terms of features, plugin developers and people who wants to experiment with the SDK and Python will benefit from having access to it already in a few weeks.

EDIT: Provided that the SDK will be avaliable of course.. :)

iainbyoung
02-05-2009, 05:45 PM
I'm disapointed too...I called the pizza joint and they wanted me to pay for my pizza.

Btw..do you ever use your credit/debit card for pizza? Guess what, you're paying for something before you get it...so there. LOL

But at least you'll have some idea of what you'll be getting... ;)

Earl
02-05-2009, 05:48 PM
Now I remember why I spend so little time posting on this or any other forum. It truely is a waste of time trying to convince people of your POV, or helping people understand what they obviously haven't understood in reading the post.. Obviously you gave enough of a rat's *** to post... I imagine you fight the same way, wait until others have taken their shots and your intended target is looking the other way, and boom, one last parting remark.

So at that, I'll leave it alone..
I'm not trying to fight or anything. The majority of users here are very reasonable on the forums.

I can totally understand the disappointment with the video. I think a lot of us (including NewTek) share the feeling. I would just suggest wording your posts differently. Title the post something like, "Suggestions for your next product reveal" or "Here's a better idea for launching a new product." I think the other users on the forum (myself included) would react a lot differently if the post didn't include (or at the very least start off with) flame bait.

Bookman
02-05-2009, 05:52 PM
I do recall hearing them say that they will continue to update the 9x series if you invest in hardcore, so even if you don't like what theya re doing atleast you'll beable to still use 9.x.


Over all I really liked what they showed. I know that there is more that they have that they have not shown, why they didn't show it I don't know.

I have not heard anything about why the show died before it got started, for all I know it was the modo guys/or/ autodesk/or/pissed off maya guy playing games with the web server, or a rat chewed on the eithernet cable, or hey just so many of us logged in to check it out we chashed the webserver.

ok I didn't go for the live brodcast, and wasn't too happy seeing nuries I built for BSG on the wall (because those were a gift to zoic, and I didn't get paid for those items). I would have rather seen a cleanly edited profesional looking video but...

LWcore (not soled on the name, LW10, or Lightwave"X"ero would have been better) is how ever what lightwave should have been for years now, and I for one was happy to see it, and as soon as available money allows I will be getting it because LW9.x and it's predisessors are not going to cut it in the profesional market. If your a hobbiest sure, I'm sure that eventualy if they do keep putting out free patches and features for 9.x like they said they are going to make available for hardcore users for the present time, core is a big and scary monster and doesn't really add much value for you, fine. I don't realyl care, as I'm a profesional user and I don't really like the idea of having to virtually start over as a Maya or XSI guy.

I'll be honest, If Lightwave didn't start going in this new direction I was going to just switch over to Maya or XSI (or both) and join the evil empire because there was no where else to go. I love LW, it's fun, it's easy to use, and for the job I do it does a great job delivering profesional lvl art work, but it has it's feet in lead shoes in several key areas that make more people in profesional lvl work start to look else where.

The Core pesentation listed some very nice features that so far I really havent seen anyone talkk about.

1) unified dynamics solver, wheather it's in there yet or not, only maya (not sure about huodini) really has that, not even XSI has that. If that solver is good enough to compete with maya's (and is HAS to) then LW will be around for a very long time.

2) everything is nodal, nowfor some people there is confusion about what this really means. It doesn't just mean that your surface editor in more confusing, it means that every part of LW can talk to any other part of LW. It means that the modeling egine could in theroy at least talk to the surfacing tools, and you can write shaders that create geometry on the fly. Right now few apps have anything like that, and I think it can only be done in somthing like renderman.

3) That web browser thing, ok sounds like fluff, but if you can build in a web browser into the interface what else can you intergrate.... probably just about anything that speaks C++, game engines, other 3D software, propritary software... alll inside the interface. If it workes the way I hope it does then thats pretty dammed cool.

LW core so far to me sounds like a great start, I'm really looking forward to seeing where they take it, and I want to be onboard for the ride. Sure the presentation was a cheese fest, but that's NT humor for you, just deal with it, or move on. Jay and the rest of the guys seem to have been actually listening very well, and people bad mouthing somthing they havent really seen yet just doesn't get anything done just seeks to devide people into camps. Personally I think more than anything that it probably scared a few people because it was new and they didn't fully appreaciate what was being said.

:lwicon::thumbsup:

mav3rick
02-05-2009, 06:03 PM
imagine game company buy lw core and do completly INHOSE tools that will be direcly conencted in 3d app.. game artist make model for game with all tools already present from GAME engine ? how about that?

mikala
02-05-2009, 06:06 PM
No screen grabs or closeup shots of the current UI on any of the CORE pages makes me wonder if the product is real. The video was poor in quality, not too mention that no real feature was presented during the launch let down. I mean nothing of any real significance was showcased. OK, the UI can change, well I think it can anyway, the video was so poor you really couldn't tell. That said, there's nothing earth shattering about this feature, other applications have had this capability for a long time. What else? The stack, the edit plane, that you can move menus and tool bars around? Again, SO WHAT? Sure the discussion promised a lot, spoke of a bright future, open SDK (promised for years) python scripting, but why wasn't the presentation more thorough? Why didn't we see anything more substantial, either related to modeling, animating, or rendering? If you want to sell this thing, shouldn't you have been more thorough, told the full story, or at least more than 1% of 1% of the story? SHOW ME!

If they couldn't demonstrate anything more than this after two years of development, how long before there's an actual full feature rich working beta? What was showcased today wasn't 1% of what the current LW is capable of doing.

And another thing; WOW, if that wasn't the most pathetic product launch in history it has to be inline for honorable mention. This looks like it was planned 13 days ago, and didn't get put in the can until this morning. The build up was perfect, the countdown, the mystery behind this new experience, the punchline however, was terrible, ill conceived and to be brutally honest, a total amateur disaster. Actually, this gives amateur disasters a bad name.. Who uses an engineer to launch a new product? Where was your marketing department, does Newtek have a marketing department? This guy couldn't have been more stiff if he was deceased. It was amateur in every way, and quite frankly came across like a plea for money, nothing more.

I'm really disappointed, I expected more.:thumbsdow
Ah another Modo user :)

Cageman
02-05-2009, 06:28 PM
I think it has been so long since NewTek asked for money that some people think LW is open source.

That is SO true. I bought LW8.3 and got LW8.5, LW9.0, LW9.3, LW9.3.1, LW9.5 and LW9.6 for FREE. On top of that, a version of LWCad was given away to all registered users as well. Add to this all those who have developed free third party tools (such as DPs nodes and lights and many other developers) I've gotten a hell of alot of functionality for FREE.

So...it is about time NewTek earn some money...and even so... the pricing is very low imho. $395 for an upgrade that includes hardcore membership until the final version ships in Q4. Ontop of this, I'll get access to the software in Q1 so that I can toy with it.. once again it does feel like I'm stealing from NewTek.

lwanmtr
02-05-2009, 06:31 PM
BTW, the free tshirt comes with a small parasite that enables NewTek to take command of your body at any time..so you dont have to feel like you're stealing from them...hehe.

Cageman
02-05-2009, 06:37 PM
Last year when there was all the drama over 9.5 and people were saying they should just move on to version 10, I said it was likely that they were already working on version 10 as it was likely to be rewrite of the core. Apparently I was correct but I didn't expect to see 10 until about a year and a half from the release of 9.6 But if you want to complain.... go ahead.

The most scary part is how much missinformation is floating around and how little people seem to read.

When NewTek announced LW9.0, they did infact mention that they were going to do a parallel changeover. It seems that that information was forgotten quite fast by too many people. CORE is the result of the parallel changeover, which started already with LW9.0, if not even earlier.

lwanmtr
02-05-2009, 06:44 PM
Yeah, I remembered the parallel development statement by Chuck back then, which was one of the reasons I havent gotten up in arms about the lack of 'x' feature in 9.x..I figured they were making it for 10...of course, I still believe that we've parts of Core in the 9.x cycle, at least in basic function.

Although, I'm still waiting for that 'Cow' primitive.....

MooseDog
02-05-2009, 06:50 PM
The most scary part is how much missinformation is floating around and how little people seem to read.

When NewTek announced LW9.0, they did infact mention that they were going to do a parallel changeover. It seems that that information was forgotten quite fast by too many people. CORE is the result of the parallel changeover, which started already with LW9.0, if not even earlier.

agreed :thumbsup: thank you.

Cageman
02-05-2009, 06:51 PM
My issue is not w/ the presentation or what has been described and/or shown up to this point. Newtek is once again asking us to trust them and take the leap w/o a finished product. That hasn't worked out so well for us, as users, in the past, not once but multiple times. They've been making inroads but still have a ways to go in regaining the trust of many. As a user, I'm sure that I'll upgrade my personal copy, esp. as they reveal more of the application. A harder sell, however, is getting management at my company to fork over the money to upgrade our seats based on what has been exhibited and explained so far, esp. in these trying times. Newtek really needs to address things further before March 31st as I'm sure they will.

Tell you what...

I don't agree with you at all! :)

LW9.x series has been a tremendous upgrade. Yes, everything that was initially promised was not delivered, and by looking at CORE (as an architecture rather than a finished product) I can understand why. Why trying to bolt on half assed solutions to an old codebase when the energy could be much better spent in getting CORE to be a robust architecture for the future?

The few dollars I spent when I got LW8.3 (and all versions up to LW9.6 for that single purchase) I really can't understand your reasoning in this, because I don't believe you or the company you work for paid more money than I did? LW9.x has been very, very usefull for me at work, mostly because of Nodal and some of the free nodepackages developed by third party. It has payed itself so many times over that, again, I felt like I was stealing from NewTek and those developers who released their plugins for free.

Cageman
02-05-2009, 07:18 PM
What is it with the low reading comprehension on this forum. Listen, I'll try and make this as plain and as simple as humanly possible.

1) Newtek want me, and others to invest in their future, sight unseen for the most part.

:)

And this is where you display an unhealthy missunderstanding of what CORE is. It's an architecture or a platform that has very few, if any, loose ends. If it has loose ends, you will be able to patch it yourself if NewTek doesn't do it.

Look at Maya as a reference. Many, many loose ends in that application. At the surface, many features or tools seem to be incomplete or doesn't do exaclty what you need, but clever MEL-scripters easily customize those tools so that they do exactly what the user wants them to do. That alone makes things flexible on a level that made Maya the tool of choice for pretty much all major VFX facilities; it's what made Maya nr 1. Now, with CORE, the same level of flexibility has reached LW. Pretty amazing if you ask me. With the pricing of CORE compared to Maya or XSI, there is a nobrainer to me to invest some $395 to get hands on experience already in Q1.

What is lacking, however, is a solid user interface and tools that, unlike Maya (in certain respects) are easy to use for less technical people. A solid workflow where you can see how to get a model done, texture/shade/light, animate and render it. It is important that the standard UI and toolset is easy to use and does what you expect. For this, I'm very interrested in early adoption to have a chance to get some of my ideas implemented in the initial toolset/workflow implementation.

So, in essence, you pay NT some extra and they will listen to you more than some random dude outside Hardcore memebership.

btw.. I'm in no way a technical person, but I do have ideas that scripters and programmers can implement. I want these ideas forwarded, so I pay extra.

:)

devin
02-05-2009, 07:24 PM
The few dollars I spent when I got LW8.3 (and all versions up to LW9.6 for that single purchase) I really can't understand your reasoning in this, because I don't believe you or the company you work for paid more money than I did? LW9.x has been very, very usefull for me at work, mostly because of Nodal and some of the free nodepackages developed by third party. It has payed itself so many times over that, again, I felt like I was stealing from NewTek and those developers who released their plugins for free.

Rest assured that I'll be taking the leap with my personal copy along with everyone else despite any minor reservations. I've been loyal since the debut of the coaster known as version 5(?) on the mac (1997?) and that's not gonna' change anytime soon, esp. with all the potential.

Management at my company doesn't always see things like the creatives despite all the reasoning. They have a "what's wrong with what we have now?" mentality. I simply need all the ammunition that I can throw at them to make things happen (and I'm sure Newtek will eventually provide that). Heck, I just broke down how each license has cost us only $0.54/day per license over the past two years and that amount lowers each day. Believe me, LW has paid for itself 100's of times over, if not for me necessarily in relation to their rate :(, certainly for them.

I see your point and the free upgrades have been a huge bonus. Chuck and Jay's presence on the forums and 9.6's release have definitely gone along way to repairing that faith that I mentioned.

the3dwiz
02-05-2009, 07:44 PM
@Fausto

First of all, i think the new Lightwave CORE is great move in the right direction from NewTek. And i will for shure buy the update, even i realy have to see how il get the money for it.
And 395.- is realy not that much! If you divide it with 1 Year, u get a little more then 1$ per day. And the last payd Update is now several years back!

Yes, the presentation was not the best thing in the world, and may not be on par with presentations from Companies like Avid or Autodesk. But to be fair, you have to say those Companies have 1 or 2 Dollars more to spend for their marketing. And i think NewTek will learn from this little desaster.

An then you say. that Softimage had a BIG presentation when they showed ICE (@Siggraph) . But hey,they showed a finished Product!

Dont forget, yesterday was not realy a event for showing to the big public! It was actualy only to inform LW user! It was only announced via mail and spread from there to some Forums! NT did not announced this event big in public as much as i know!!!
It was an announcement of a new Roadmap and a new Product they are working at,
some price changes and the possibility to work stronger together with the developement Team via the HardCORE Membership.

The next Weeks will show us whats going on, and if all is worth it.

Hey, and at the end, its only software. So no reason to get mad at each other!



And here a pricechart for those who want to change to another App.

Maxon C4D Studio Bundle 3299 Euro
Autodesk Maya Complete 2562 Euro
Maya Complete Commercial Subscription (1 year) 803 Euro
Autodesk Maya Unlimited 5575 Euro
Autodesk Softimage XSI 7 Essentials 2995 Dollar
Autodesk Softimage XSI 7 Advanced 4995 Dollar
Autodesk 3DS Max 2009 4635 Euro
Luxology Modo 302 737 Euro

Blender you get for free!

Cageman
02-05-2009, 07:45 PM
Rest assured that I'll be taking the leap with my personal copy along with everyone else despite any minor reservations. I've been loyal since the debut of the coaster known as version 5(?) on the mac (1997?) and that's not gonna' change anytime soon, esp. with all the potential.

Ah.. ok. Thanks for clarifying. :)




Management at my company doesn't always see things like the creatives despite all the reasoning. They have a "what's wrong with what we have now?" mentality. I simply need all the ammunition that I can throw at them to make things happen (and I'm sure Newtek will eventually provide that). Heck, I just broke down how each license has cost us only $0.54/day per license over the past two years and that amount lowers each day. Believe me, LW has paid for itself 100's of times over, if not for me necessarily in relation to their rate :(, certainly for them.

There you go. :) Well, sometimes one have to do some personal sacrifices in order to get things done. In your case, getting on board early to get even more ammunition to fire at the nay-sayers and hopefully succed so that your workingenvironment is as good as you can get it.



I see your point and the free upgrades have been a huge bonus. Chuck and Jay's presence on the forums and 9.6's release have definitely gone along way to repairing that faith that I mentioned.

I would actually go further and state that ever since the new developement team got onboard (with Jay Roth as President) things have had a steady move towards trust, commitment and passion. The developement of CORE has, at least for me, taken a huge leap closer to those three very important factors.

the3dwiz
02-05-2009, 07:49 PM
Hey Cagemen

Just what i wanted to say!:agree:

Will soon be in HardCore to:hey:

Cageman
02-05-2009, 07:50 PM
An then you say. that Softimage had a BIG presentation when they showed ICE (@Siggraph) . But hey,they showed a finished Product!

Dont forget, yesterday was not realy a event for showing to the big public! It was actualy only to inform LW user! It was only announced via mail and spread from there to some Forums! NT did not announced this event big in public as much as i know!!!

I have to say that you've made two very, very valid points. As you say, I never actually saw NewTek market their announcement to other than LW-users. Word of mouth did it. With this in mind, it does make sense why they showed modeling improvements. They had to explain the apparent lack of updates to modeler in 9.x series.

parm
02-05-2009, 08:28 PM
I would actually go further and state that ever since the new developement team got onboard (with Jay Roth as President) things have had a steady move towards trust, commitment and passion. The developement of CORE has, at least for me, taken a huge leap closer to those three very important factors.

In a way you're preaching to the converted, somewhat, here. Very few LWers who have been involved in the 9.x series, and who are now about to embark on the LWcore trip. Would hold the epic efforts of the Newtek team, in any less esteem then yourself.

However. I do think that Fausto and others have voiced a legitimate concern. Regarding Newteks uncanny ability, of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. In the marketing and image aspect of their business.

They may not have intended it. But the 14 day countdown was brilliantly conceived. It drew a lot of attention and curiosity. It created a buzz that was let down at the end, by a combination of poor timing, a bit of bad luck too, but most of all poor delivery at the end.

Do you know what the number one thread, on the modo forum has been for the past two weeks? I'll end this post with a quote, from one of the Modo users in that thread. Sums it up quite well:


Some people here underestimate the power of marketing !!!!

I am into 3D because its a hobby. Now can you imagine how important marketing is to me? I guess not !!!!

Here is an example:

If a friend asks me "What is this 3D programme I heard about that you are playing around with the entire weekend.", two things can happen.

1) I tell him its called Caligari Truespace
In this case he is going to visit the website and decide that I am retarded and deserve a lead role in the series 'Big Bang Theory'

2) I tell him its called Softimage XSI
In this case he is going to think: Woaah! That's rocket science stuff.

Do you see my point? I am already not the coolest person in the world. I need to surround myself with cool software!

From what I have seen yesterday, NewTek's is in marketing terms is a lot closer to Caligari than Softimage or Luxology.

lwaddict
02-06-2009, 10:03 AM
Well...
yeah...
the presentation left much to be desired but...
it DID tell a story of what's to come and what they showed was a working program.

I wish we could've seen a scene or a model being built or some animations or something...
but we didn't.
That ship has sailed.

But I've been working with LW since version 5 and the total cost of keeping up has been roughly 3200 bucks.

Let's break that down shall we?
We're talking 1995 or 1996 right?
Roughly 246 dollars a year.
Newtek, my order's coming.

Pay attention to this part too...
you can have 8, 9, and probably Core on your system at the same time.
Nobody says you HAVE to upgrade.
If you need more info, which in reality we all would like, then wait.
But my years using Newtek products tell me to get in and have a blast.

That said, everyone...please, have a drink...breath...do what you gotta do...but have fun doing it.

geothefaust
02-06-2009, 10:07 AM
That said, everyone...please, have a drink...breath...do what you gotta do...but have fun doing it.

Done and done! :thumbsup:

cc3d
02-06-2009, 10:12 AM
The coolest thing about Lightwave Core is, you don't have to buy it! You can do absolutely nothing about it and you save $395+!!!!

But, a year from now, when you want the features we've all wanted for years, popping up in Core...

GandB
02-06-2009, 10:21 AM
We've all discussed what the presentation lacked, and the fact that more info is/should be coming (soon, I hope). But; because it didn't show CORE off in the best possible light, I'll be taking the recommendations of many here and "updgrade later on".

That is; if they can respond to questions/concerns on the Game Dev front, otherwise, it'll be money that will go towards a Max license (in my case)...it's that simple. NewTek's the one with the company, we're the ones with the money. Calling people "idiots" (as has been done in a few threads here) for questioning NT's policies and/or presentation style...isn't productive, and isn't going to result in a sale for NT.

There's obviously fanboys of multiple applications here (the majority here are in NT's corner), as well as those of us who use either mutiple applications...or whatever it takes to get the job done (possibly without spending a fortune in time and money).

Myself; I'm willing to look past the initial let-down, after the initial buildup...if a more clear and concise presentation is forthcoming in the near future (hopefully before March 31st). But it is understandable that people are reacting the way they are. Belittling those people isn't the way to go; for the reputation of the "friendliness" of NewTek's Forums...or for NewTek itself. Personally; I'm for NT's success and am willing to wait and see what's presented...but as such, my wallet is waiting as well.

My 2 cents.

-Keith

Ron Schatz
02-06-2009, 11:32 AM
Heck in this economy, marketing is the 1st to go. It should not be but it is. So from 3.1 to 9.6 it changes to Core. 4thQ, the past NT releases should place this around march 7th 08:00hrs 2010:) Sit back and enjoy life, Core will be better than what some Engineer can shows us, just wait what us artist can do with it.

DBMiller
02-06-2009, 11:37 AM
BTW, the free tshirt comes with a small parasite that enables NewTek to take command of your body at any time..so you dont have to feel like you're stealing from them...hehe.

Can I get that in extra large. I've put on a few pounds this year.:D

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 11:38 AM
I wrote this on another thread as a general statement, but now this is aimed directly at you Fausto.

...if you feel LW is that bad, don't use it. You do realize no one is forcing you to use it, right? GO READ THE TECH FAQ's, it's amazing!!! No sane 3D user (and LW user especially) could not be excited about the possibilities. It's a great list for any 3D app.

So either NT is just bold facing lying (which is exactly what you're saying), or they've really got something here. And after this last 9 cycle, I think the evidence is in favor that they really do have something. They said they would be showing more, so sit down and wait before you pass judgment!!!

CGI Addict
02-06-2009, 11:50 AM
The only thing I can compare to the presentation the other day was that I felt the same way watching it as I did when I watched that alien autopsy thing. Is it real, is it fake. Naw it's fake for sure.

Listen, if we as LW users have these feelings about what took place, you can only imagine how the rest of the industry is taking it. I don't care how much you guys whine about people making negative comments. It won't help undo the damage already done. Take a look at Modo's 401 presentation. It was a low key announcement followed by high value presentation even if they couldn't show off everything, they handled their delivery with high polish.

I do get the feeling that something bad happened just before the CORE announcement and they spent the down time trying to clean it up and put something out there which makes one indeed wonder if what we saw actually did happen. I like what's on the FAQ for CORE, if the presentation is any indication, I wonder if anything real is going to happen this year. I'm buying into the membership, but with some serious reservations. And no, I don't have a problem shelling out $$$ if that furthers development. Nor do have a problem with people expressing their displeasure with the handling of what happened. It's all good.

First Roswell, then Kennedy, and now NewTek. :D

adamredwoods
02-06-2009, 11:55 AM
GO READ THE TECH FAQ's, it's amazing!!! No sane 3D user (and LW user especially) could not be excited about the possibilities. It's a great list for any 3D app.

I've read the tech faq. While it's nice to read and all, it doesn't apply to me as an artist, just as a plugin developer.

The faq states that LW Core is a framework. So that's why it may be a while before we start seeing some nice functionality. I hope not, but for me it's just too soon.

GandB
02-06-2009, 12:21 PM
Is it just me....or are the cracks around the rivets getting longer?

http://www.newtek.com/core/

(Maybe I'm just highly sensitive to change, after the whole countdown timer thing....)

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 12:31 PM
I've read the tech faq. While it's nice to read and all, it doesn't apply to me as an artist, just as a plugin developer.

The faq states that LW Core is a framework. So that's why it may be a while before we start seeing some nice functionality. I hope not, but for me it's just too soon.There is a lot from a programming stand point but what about:

Everything is under one roof
Everything talking to one another, effected by each
Everything is Node base,
Collada based scene files, so it plays well with others
Complete re-write of the code harnessing the power of CPU, GPU, etc.
Customizable interface to accommodate ones own personal workflow.

How do those not help you as an artist? That and you have to keep in mind even though you're not a programmer, those that do have full access to the SDK. So as an artist, that means you're getting better, more powerful plug-ins.

It's all good.



The only thing I can compare to the presentation the other day was that I felt the same way watching it as I did when I watched that alien autopsy thing. Is it real, is it fake. Naw it's fake for sure.

Listen, if we as LW users have these feelings about what took place, you can only imagine how the rest of the industry is taking it. I don't care how much you guys whine about people making negative comments. It won't help undo the damage already done. Take a look at Modo's 401 presentation. It was a low key announcement followed by high value presentation even if they couldn't show off everything, they handled their delivery with high polish.

I do get the feeling that something bad happened just before the CORE announcement and they spent the down time trying to clean it up and put something out there which makes one indeed wonder if what we saw actually did happen. I like what's on the FAQ for CORE, if the presentation is any indication, I wonder if anything real is going to happen this year. I'm buying into the membership, but with some serious reservations. And no, I don't have a problem shelling out $$$ if that furthers development. Nor do have a problem with people expressing their displeasure with the handling of what happened. It's all good.

First Roswell, then Kennedy, and now NewTek. :DBeating a dead horse I see....lol. Look, the presentation wasn't what it could have been. Even the President of NT has admitted that and apologized, much bigger then I think other companies would have done. But at the end of the day, it's not the presentation that one works with on a regular basis, it's the 3D application. NT has proven themselves over the years (particular with the v9 cycle) to me, and that accompanied by that amazing Tech Spec. makes Larry a very excited LW user (and able to move past the presentation).

I just want more NT! I said it yesterday, you went to a lot of trouble to get a lot of peoples attention, strike while the iron is hot!! Let's see more videos.

CGI Addict
02-06-2009, 01:14 PM
Beating a dead horse I see....lol.

Well it's only a dead horse if NT learns from it.

And yes, we don't render from presentations but thats not the point I and others are making. Like our customers we expect to be treated to proper visuals and whatever else gets into the mix when being sold a product or potential vision for a product. That's how it works.

Our customers wouldn't and shouldn't expect mediocre to lousy marketing presentations. And so I and others expect that NT will improve their next showing I'm sure. I'm a bit more skeptical than others simply because the presentation left enough holes for me to have to fill myself.

It did feel like what this post says: "smoke and mirrors." :thumbsdow

And believe it or not, it's healthy for NT that both sides of the coin are free to be spoken of. :thumbsup:

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 01:23 PM
Like our customers we expect to be treated to proper visuals and whatever else gets into the mix when being sold a product or potential vision for a product. That's how it works.

Our customers wouldn't and shouldn't expect mediocre to lousy marketing presentations. And so I and others expect that NT will improve their next showing I'm sure. I'm a bit more skeptical than others simply because the presentation left enough holes for me to have to fill myself.

It did feel like what this post says: "smoke and mirrors." :thumbsdow

And believe it or not, it's healthy for NT that both sides of the coin are free to be spoken of. :thumbsup:The difference is NT isn't selling us visuals, they're selling a proper 3D package for us to make proper visuals. So I agree it would have been great to have both, but at the end of the day, they're job is to produce a great 3D app at an affordable price. If LW Core is all that it's cracked up to be, then they have done their job. That's what we should be talking about and excited about. :D

GandB
02-06-2009, 01:27 PM
Well it's only a dead horse if NT learns from it.

And yes, we don't render from presentations but thats not the point I and others are making. Like our customers we expect to be treated to proper visuals and whatever else gets into the mix when being sold a product or potential vision for a product. That's how it works.

Our customers wouldn't and shouldn't expect mediocre to lousy marketing presentations. And so I and others expect that NT will improve their next showing I'm sure. I'm a bit more skeptical than others simply because the presentation left enough holes for me to have to fill myself.

It did feel like what this post says: "smoke and mirrors." :thumbsdow

And believe it or not, it's healthy for NT that both sides of the coin are free to be spoken of. :thumbsup:
I'm afraid that you're preaching to the converted; they are no help whatsoever with NewTek's marketing.:thumbsup:

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 01:31 PM
I'm afraid that you're preaching to the converted; they are no help whatsoever with NewTek's marketing.:thumbsup:But converted for very good reasons! I didn't say I wouldn't have liked for the presentation to go better. In fact, not only did I agree with it, I even mentioned the President of NT said the same thing and apologized. The point that I and many of us are making, is NT has still done something amazing! Sure they didn't (and haven't fully) presented well, but it doesn't negate that it looks like we are getting what we've wanted. So to continue to harp on the video presentation is just beating a dead horse.

GandB
02-06-2009, 01:38 PM
Maybe I could make a "beating the dead horse" game. ;)

Of course I would need to sort out a "pipeline" using Lightwave.....

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 01:40 PM
Maybe I could make a "beating the dead horse" game. ;)Seems like from the Tech FAQ's you could probably do it much easier now in CORE. That and many guys on here would probably buy it. lol

GandB
02-06-2009, 01:42 PM
seems like from the tech faq's you could probably do it much easier now in core. That and many guys on here would probably buy it. Lol
Lol! :D

CGI Addict
02-06-2009, 01:43 PM
The difference is NT isn't selling us visuals, they're selling a proper 3D package for us to make proper visuals. So I agree it would have been great to have both, but at the end of the day, they're job is to produce a great 3D app at an affordable price. If LW Core is all that it's cracked up to be, then they have done their job. That's what we should be talking about and excited about. :D

Yes they were (selling us visuals). That was the whole point of the presentation wasn't it? And that's is where it fell apart. And again, It wasn't as much for those of us who have already invested our money, but for new blood. Everyone tuned in to see it. There isn't a company on this planet that would agree with you on the premise that as long as the product is good that's all that matters. If you can't properly market it, it won't sell.

Those of us who can see past it's shortcomings might forgive the errors but not those who were the ones meant to be swayed into pluncking down some hard cash. Remember, aside from a few upcoming videos, that first video is all the rest of the world is going to see. NT has created a system of exclusives for membership payers only. That means the everyone else has to make their minds on whatever limited marketing NT puts out there.

Initial bad start but let's see what happens from here out. I'm with you in rooting for NT in a big way. I like the feel of LW. I like what LW gives me one full app. Unfortunately it may be that the money NT was hoping to pull in from outsiders is what may or may not eventually be what allows CORE to continue into further development.

I'll put this topic to rest now. I won't mind however that a few others speak what's on their minds. It's healthy.:thumbsup:

GandB
02-06-2009, 01:48 PM
It's healthy.
Yes; I hear you can work up quite a sweat, beating dead horses. :hammer:

(That was humour, people...)

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 01:56 PM
Yes they were (selling us visuals). That was the whole point of the presentation wasn't it? And that's is where it fell apart. And again, It wasn't as much for those of us who have already invested our money, but for new blood. Everyone tuned in to see it. There isn't a company on this planet that would agree with you on the premise that as long as the product is good that's all that matters. If you can't properly market it, it won't sell.

Those of us who can see past it's shortcomings might forgive the errors but not those who were the ones meant to be swayed into pluncking down some hard cash. Remember, aside from a few upcoming videos, that first video is all the rest of the world is going to see. NT has created a system of exclusives for membership payers only. That means the everyone else has to make their minds on whatever limited marketing NT puts out there.

Initial bad start but let's see what happens from here out. I'm with you in rooting for NT in a big way. I like the feel of LW. I like what LW gives me one full app. Unfortunately it may be that the money NT was hoping to pull in from outsiders is what may or may not eventually be what allows CORE to continue into further development.

I'll put this topic to rest now. I won't mind however that a few others speak what's on their minds. It's healthy.:thumbsup:They don't sell visuals, they sell a 3D application (amongst other things). You want good visuals to help push your product, but it's not what they sell to their clients, as we do with our clients.


Yes; I hear you can work up quite a sweat, beating dead horses. :hammer:

(That was humour, people...) For all those interested in the game GandB might make. You should make it for the Wii so you do get a work out. lol Sorry, I had to lighten things up.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=68151&amp;stc=1&amp;thumb=1&amp;d= 1212595718

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 02:11 PM
Wow, I can tell they used Michael Bolten from Office Space to make that gif of the guy beating the horse.

CGI Addict
02-06-2009, 02:26 PM
For all those interested in the game GandB might make. You should make it for the Wii so you do get a work out. lol Sorry, I had to lighten things up.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=68151&amp;stc=1&amp;thumb=1&amp;d= 1212595718

Loved the visual. Hahahaha!

Hey, did you just try to sell me something? :thumbsup:

Kid Mesh
02-06-2009, 02:28 PM
Order#: 6051

Core /kɔr, koʊr/ [kawr, kohr] - The central, innermost, or most essential part of anything.

Well here is a POV from someone who did not even watch the presentation and could careless if it were good or bad. The main reason Netwek received my payment was because of the 9.x run.

Cannot believe some people are crying foul and talking about site unseen, are you serious? Maybe these individuals do not own ver 9 or have kept up with the development. Maybe they don't realize that "CORE" is not some new fangled idea NEWTEK came up with on a whim. Obviously the plans for this new architecture has been in the works for a long time. I'm sure Jay has mentioned it between the lines a few times in his past emails.

IMO it appears that the development team did a helluva job on the 9.x series which served as a show of good faith or proof of value. My impression is that there is true dedication to the product and it is only going to get better from here. Secondly, the continued "free" upgrades helped in gaining the confidence of the community, while the quality upgrades proved that they were listening and reacting to what "we" wanted.

As for the brick headed peeps out here. In order to compete, innovate, and continue to march towards cutting edge development (Agile) a change has to be made, CORE is that change. It also cost money, least we forget yet already mentioned before the upgrades for 9.x up to this point had been free and the only revenue generation is newcomers to the tool (who knows how decent that has been?). With that being said, I'm a believer and long time Waver and consider my money to be an investment into the future.

So many have cried for years about blowing up Lightwave, changing it, doing this, doing that and now that it's finally getting it's comeupins how dare you balk now?

Yes, fools rush in where angles fear to tread but in this case, the majority of us has walked the path with the dev team during the beta. Prior to that most of us have slowly endured the pain of years past. But if you dont have the confidence in the brand now then you never will. Now is the time for those who have pushed for change to put up or shut up, nothing worth anything is ever free.

See you on the other side.

CORE Semper-Fi

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 02:31 PM
Loved the visual. Hahahaha!

Hey, did you just try to sell me something? :thumbsup:lol. Not unless you want to buy that image. ;)

CGI Addict
02-06-2009, 02:35 PM
To Kid-Mesh: Some truth there I guess as far as the 9.x series goes.

I think NT is going to need a hell of a lot more cash infusion than what is being generated by the faith followers though. And therein lies the problem. I have no doubts that NT is working, slaving away at making CORE the best app it can be. But money is what really drives innovation.

Hence the problem x 2.

Semper-fi back at you.

CGI Addict
02-06-2009, 02:40 PM
lol. Not unless you want to buy that image. ;)

See, now that's marketing! I'll take a dozen. No make it a baker's dozen.

Throw in CORE and I'll pay you double. :D

clagman
02-06-2009, 02:42 PM
I'm disapointed too...I called the pizza joint and they wanted me to pay for my pizza.

Btw..do you ever use your credit/debit card for pizza? Guess what, you're paying for something before you get it...so there. LOL

Ahahahahah! That was classic.

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 02:44 PM
So many have cried for years about blowing up Lightwave, changing it, doing this, doing that and now that it's finally getting it's comeupins how dare you balk now?

Yes, fools rush in where angles fear to tread but in this case, the majority of us has walked the path with the dev team during the beta. Prior to that most of us have slowly endured the pain of years past. But if you dont have the confidence in the brand now then you never will. Now is the time for those who have pushed for change to put up or shut up, nothing worth anything is ever free.

See you on the other side.

CORE Semper-FiVery well put!

CGI Addict
02-06-2009, 02:46 PM
I'm disapointed too...I called the pizza joint and they wanted me to pay for my pizza.

Btw..do you ever use your credit/debit card for pizza? Guess what, you're paying for something before you get it...so there. LOL

What the . . . What? Are you trying to be funny cause it ain't working. Seriuosly stick with your day job, that is as long as your not selling pizzas.

Seriously though, you make a good point. :thumbsup:

mccabejc
02-06-2009, 02:55 PM
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

pmG Unveils Flashy Headline Grabber
Minor Tweak Brings Major Hyperbole, New Compliments, Enhanced Media Coverage

Los Angeles, CA -- February 4, 2009 -- pmG Worldwide, LLC. a leader in the world of computer-generated character animation and rendering, today announced the immediate availability of a flashy new feature name designed for maximum publicity: Dynamic Pan-Polygonal Reactive Illumination. Although still in the development stage this new feature-- part of an entire suite of new tools with attention-grabbing qualities-- will be seen far and wide as a milestone in artificial publicity hype.

While the new feature has no immediate application for computer animation, and indeed is nothing more than a clever name, users around the world are lining up to express their excitement. "This is exactly what I've been waiting for since my Dad got me the first version of the software," says Max Carver, a hobbyist from Maplethorn Wisconsin. His sentiments are echoed by Brian Combes a digital artist at Aisle-M: "I'm not sure what the hobbyists will use this for, but for us these cutting edge tools are not only necessary, they're important."

Although just a name (and acronym), DPPRI has already revolutionized certain aspects of the already recently-revolutionized computer graphics industry. "The importance of this technology can not be overstated," says Ethan Edwards, pmG's Senior Vice-President of Forum Posts. "And this is an industry where revolutions are extremely rare, sometimes only occurring once or twice a month." Yet as the beta team agrees, this is the most important revolution in weeks, and they can not wait to find out what it acutally does. "I was skeptical at first, says beta team member Lou Gordon, "but now I'm firmly convinced and I'm totally stoked. This is exciting stuff. What are girls like?"

Mr. Edwards promises that this feature will far outshine all other features announced within the past few weeks or so. "I've been in this industry for many years, but this is a true first-- no feature has ever had this name," he says. "We've got a winner here," concurs Buck Smithers, Assistant to the VP of Icon Development. "We're already starting to see the story picked up on the forums and mailing lists, so we're confident that this is exactly the kind of thing people will drone on cluelessly about and demand in their own software packages, where it will remain completely unused."

The new feature's name is available immediately, however pricing and a release date for the actual software is being held under tight wraps. "Let's not start in about release dates and stuff like that. Let's just enjoy the moment and spread the word far and wide," says Mr. Edwards.

jay3d
02-06-2009, 03:05 PM
Don't feed the trolls guys :thumbsup:

NewTek most talented history began in 2005, guess the year Jay, Mark, Jonas, Antti and the others started working on CORE.

Now let's count and compare the results:

LW 6.0 released in 1999, claimed to be a major rewrite, in fact it was not.
earlier versions of LW pre 6 were multiplatform : Windows, Amiga, SGI, Sun, ... , LW 6.0 dropped most of these to be only Win & Mac.

LW 6.0 still two applications with the most great feature/annoyance called the Hub, which in fact brought more stability problems than it solved.

From 6.0 to 7.5, the radiosity engine did not change, still blotchy, slow, unusable.

Now being written in C and not C++ will make it more prone to bugs as most of the programmers will agree with me in this point, as C++ compiler has more warnings and restriction for your own protection.

in 2001 the rift happened between the developers and the management under ambiguous reasons that no body knows the details of the event.

Now the new team took over in roughly 2003, and began studying the source code left by the old guys, found many holes, tried to overcome some in 8.x cycle (2004), been successful to some extent.

After long studying of the code, it was obvious to them that it's too primitive and limited to be up to the 21st century standards.

They decided to release 9 with the new acquired developments, some of the most noticeable people are Jarno of Little Tuff Unit who wrote the RPC plugin for LW, and Antti who wrote nodal.

At the same time work started on CORE secretly, and revealed in early 2009.

Ok, that makes the new really serious development started from 2005 to 2009, makes it 4 years numerically and 3 years actually, spent in parallel between LW 9.x and LW CORE.

now Lux started in 2002, released modo in sep 2005, modo 302 in apr 2008.

Now Lux planned modo from 2002 to 2005 makes it 3 years as a modelling solution with a new interface inspired by LW interface.

2005 to 2008 another 3 years, modo 302 is a modeller with a bundled renderer, (no animation, no IK, no bones, just a poor man motion graphics solution)

Now that counts 3+3=6 years = Modelling and rendering and 1% animation (modelling still destructive in regard to animation, and some of the guys in modo's forum begins to compare the tool pipe in modo with the concept of modifier stack, ... , ignorant :) )

Results:

9.0 - 9.5 = fully revamped rendering and radiosity solution puts LW on par and in some cases exceeds modo and Vray renderer. (less than one year time frame)

LW CORE is the real re-write of LW that should have been in 1999 as LW 6.0, but some stubborn guy wanted C instead of C++, and destructive modelling instead of modifier stack and history, and layers instead of nodes.

so some of the arguing about the real reason LW past dev. left NewTek because they were not allowed to re-write LW properly is something when u look at the facts is false, ... why?

modo is still written in C, no nodes, destructive modeling patched by something called tool pipe, animated modeling operations are not possible since modeling is destructive (I doubt it will change, that mean there will be redundant tools : Bend tool in modeling, Bend tool in animation; what? still two applications then, the unification in modo is a lie? what? )

so after 6 years, modo is not the re-write that will compete with Maya and others.

Now in those 3 years NT new developers of LW wanted to play big with the big guys, the've succeeded and prove that they should be the ones writing LW 6.0 from the begining, and they realized how following the industry standards will not only save resourced but bring innovative technologies. like Qt, Python and collada

That's my opinion, and I could be wrong, :)

Cheers
J

adamredwoods
02-06-2009, 03:12 PM
There is a lot from a programming stand point but what about:

Everything is under one roof
Everything talking to one another, effected by each
Everything is Node base,
Collada based scene files, so it plays well with others
Complete re-write of the code harnessing the power of CPU, GPU, etc.
Customizable interface to accommodate ones own personal workflow.

How do those not help you as an artist? That and you have to keep in mind even though you're not a programmer, those that do have full access to the SDK. So as an artist, that means you're getting better, more powerful plug-ins.

It's too early. And WAY to early to be talking about all the great new plugins Core will have.

There's a lot of talk of the BACKEND of the software (SDK, unified app, node-based somethings, collada widgets), but not so much on the FRONTEND where the artist spends the most time (instancing, bend and twist, scene tree w/dragndrop, construction planes).

Are they going to take ALL the tools from Lightwave, and just "drop" it into Core? I don't know how well that'll work, and even then it'll take about a year(who knows?) to smooth out the wrinkles.

It took a long time to reach a good product with LW9.6.

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 03:18 PM
You know, I don't want to burst a lot of bubbles here, but we'll be lucky to have a full application by Q4, let alone, all these great plug-ins. By then, it will only be under 3 years worth of work to re-writing an entire application. That's honestly not a lot of time. Modo was started 7 years ago and they're not a full application yet.
Maybe Newtek has an ace up their sleeve in that regard but I'm guessing not. I'm prepared for that outcome.
Are you?

adamredwoods
02-06-2009, 03:18 PM
The new feature's name is available immediately, however pricing and a release date for the actual software is being held under tight wraps. "Let's not start in about release dates and stuff like that. Let's just enjoy the moment and spread the word far and wide," says Mr. Edwards.

Hilarious!

Tranimatronic
02-06-2009, 03:37 PM
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

pmG Unveils Flashy Headline Grabber
Minor Tweak Brings Major Hyperbole, New Compliments, Enhanced Media Coverage


ROTFL - hilarious !!!

Im wondering though... the people that are turned off by CORE (myself included) - are they ALL software developers ? are they ALL Maya users that have previously used node based architectures ? (again me included). Im not meaning to fuel any fires here, im just curious. Has anyone that has jumped on the CORE train got any experience with history stacks, instancing or node based architectures ?

robertoortiz
02-06-2009, 05:06 PM
Why would we turned off?
This is a great time to be a LW user.

I can say this with confidence, being QUITE familiar with other apps, and being an app developer myself.

Without a doubt, I am convinced NewTek has a winner in their hands, and it is a game changer.

Think of it this way, with core LW is no longer an application, it is for all intents an purposes it is a now a tool development enviroment.

* Do you want use a third party app like Blender to do liquids for a simulation?
(automate the conversion to LW using Python)
* Do you want LW talk to a web app? use the build in browser.
* Do you want to automate a Maya pipeline that uses Lightwave as a renderer? Use Python again.
* Do you want to develop custom tools for the masses? Go ahead, the WHOLE PROGRAM is now open.



So fine they made a mistake in one of their demos, but to be fair, NewTek so far has shown that they have been listening to the user base.

Core is offering a solid foundation to build a better app and we needed that badly.

And make no mistakes,
PMG, Maxon and Luxology ARE a competitors of Newtek
They would love nothing more to see them fail.

They might sounds like they are laughing, but trust me they are paying attention.

JMCarrigan
02-06-2009, 05:15 PM
Why would we turned off?
This is a great time to be a LW user.

I can say this with confidence, being QUITE familiar with other apps, and being an app developer myself.

Without a doubt, I am convinced NewTek has a winner in their hands, and it is a game changer.

Think of it this way, with core LW is no longer an application, it is for all intents an purposes it is a now a tool development enviroment.

* Do you want use a third party app like Blender to do liquids for a simulation?
(automate the conversion to LW using Python)
* Do you want LW talk to a web app? use the build in browser.
* Do you want to automate a Maya pipeline that uses Lightwave as a renderer? Use Python again.
* Do you want to develop custom tools for the masses? Go ahead, the WHOLE PROGRAM is now open.



So fine they made a mistake in one of their demos, but to be fair, NewTek so far has shown that they have been listening to the user base.

Core is offering a solid foundation to build a better app and we needed that badly.

And make no mistakes,
PMG, Maxon and Luxology ARE a competitors of Newtek
They would love nothing more to see them fail.

They might sounds like they are laughing, but trust me they are paying attention.

:agree:

Larry_g1s
02-06-2009, 05:21 PM
Why would we turned off?
This is a great time to be a LW user.

I can say this with confidence, being QUITE familiar with other apps, and being an app developer myself.

Without a doubt, I am convinced NewTek has a winner in their hands, and it is a game changer.

Think of it this way, with core LW is no longer an application, it is for all intents an purposes it is a now a tool development enviroment.

* Do you want use a third party app like Blender to do liquids for a simulation?
(automate the conversion to LW using Python)
* Do you want LW talk to a web app? use the build in browser.
* Do you want to automate a Maya pipeline that uses Lightwave as a renderer? Use Python again.
* Do you want to develop custom tools for the masses? Go ahead, the WHOLE PROGRAM is now open.



So fine they made a mistake in one of their demos, but to be fair, NewTek so far has shown that they have been listening to the user base.

Core is offering a solid foundation to build a better app and we needed that badly.

And make no mistakes,
PMG, Maxon and Luxology ARE a competitors of Newtek
They would love nothing more to see them fail.

They might sounds like they are laughing, but trust me they are paying attention.It's what I've been saying! :thumbsup:

Ztreem
02-06-2009, 05:31 PM
I must say that I'm more impressed with the Lw core video than with modo's 401 presentation. Ok, I'll agree that the modo presentation looks very nice compared to LW's but hey since when did volumeteric lighting become a cooler feature then a complete rewrite with a open SDK and nodes everything?

Cageman
02-06-2009, 05:49 PM
It took a long time to reach a good product with LW9.6.

*sigh*

Yes.. it did.. and how is that? Have you actually been hiding under a rock or something?

Missinformation is flying all over this place and it's sickening to the death.

Let me just recap: LW9.x is old codebase where developers had to find workarounds to patch and make bolt on solutions. Fully working CC-subDs was IMPOSSIBLE TO EVEN HACK INTO MODELER. Now, try develop software under such conditions and lets see how fast you can progress.

Another very, very timeconsuming task with the old codebase (before even being able to add new features) was all the subsystems, each containing millions of lines of code that had to be extracted. Add to this very badly structured code, few if any comments and so on. Try to move fast forward with such code and, again, lets see where you end up within a given timeframe.

CORE has NONE of those limitations. How do I know that? Well, do you honestly think that the devs would be stupid enough to build a new codebase that is an utter mess after the fact that their cleanup work during 9.x series has been far from a trivial task. What they learned by developing LW9.x in parallel was 1 thing: how to NOT structure code.

I don't know how much you've worked in highpaced production with many people on a project, but I can tell you: Before even starting ANYTHING, the pipeline has to be set. Every single aspect of the given production has to be carefully planned... not only on how to solve any given problem for the task at hand, but also making sure that the pipeline will be able to handle that solution. Once that is done, production can start. A badly planned and executed pipeline will result in more or less a dissaster, while a good pipeline will result in delivery on time, within budget and healthy artists that doesn't have to spend several hours / day on overtime.

Now, translate the above to developement of pretty much any type of software and you may be able to possibly grasp what the heck NT has been up to. To further explain my analogy:

LW9.x developement translates to how it is to move into a production where the pipeline has clearly not worked and the only thing you can try to do is to minimize the damages. But you can't move backwards in time to undo and you have to choose to either deliver on time, but incomplete, or ask for more time.

CORE represents a planned out pipeline where as little as possible have a potential to screw up the final delivery.

At the moment, I would say that we are currently somewhere in the beginning of the "production".

Fausto
02-06-2009, 05:59 PM
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

pmG Unveils Flashy Headline Grabber
Minor Tweak Brings Major Hyperbole, New Compliments, Enhanced Media Coverage

Los Angeles, CA -- February 4, 2009 -- pmG Worldwide, LLC. a leader in the world of computer-generated character animation and rendering, today announced the immediate availability of a flashy new feature name designed for maximum publicity: Dynamic Pan-Polygonal Reactive Illumination. Although still in the development stage this new feature-- part of an entire suite of new tools with attention-grabbing qualities-- will be seen far and wide as a milestone in artificial publicity hype.

While the new feature has no immediate application for computer animation, and indeed is nothing more than a clever name, users around the world are lining up to express their excitement. "This is exactly what I've been waiting for since my Dad got me the first version of the software," says Max Carver, a hobbyist from Maplethorn Wisconsin. His sentiments are echoed by Brian Combes a digital artist at Aisle-M: "I'm not sure what the hobbyists will use this for, but for us these cutting edge tools are not only necessary, they're important."

Although just a name (and acronym), DPPRI has already revolutionized certain aspects of the already recently-revolutionized computer graphics industry. "The importance of this technology can not be overstated," says Ethan Edwards, pmG's Senior Vice-President of Forum Posts. "And this is an industry where revolutions are extremely rare, sometimes only occurring once or twice a month." Yet as the beta team agrees, this is the most important revolution in weeks, and they can not wait to find out what it acutally does. "I was skeptical at first, says beta team member Lou Gordon, "but now I'm firmly convinced and I'm totally stoked. This is exciting stuff. What are girls like?"

Mr. Edwards promises that this feature will far outshine all other features announced within the past few weeks or so. "I've been in this industry for many years, but this is a true first-- no feature has ever had this name," he says. "We've got a winner here," concurs Buck Smithers, Assistant to the VP of Icon Development. "We're already starting to see the story picked up on the forums and mailing lists, so we're confident that this is exactly the kind of thing people will drone on cluelessly about and demand in their own software packages, where it will remain completely unused."

The new feature's name is available immediately, however pricing and a release date for the actual software is being held under tight wraps. "Let's not start in about release dates and stuff like that. Let's just enjoy the moment and spread the word far and wide," says Mr. Edwards.


Thanks for the humour, that was absolutely hilarious, and might I add, strangely reminiscient..

Again thanks, you made my evening!!!

GandB
02-06-2009, 08:11 PM
See, now that's marketing! I'll take a dozen. No make it a baker's dozen.

Great....I just came here to complain and beat the "proverbial 'dead horse'". Now I have to make a game. Thanks guys....thanks alot! :screwy:

By the way; I'm taking orders now. Each unit will normally retail for $19.00; but if you become an "early adopter", you'll only pay $25.00. ;)

Tranimatronic
02-06-2009, 08:31 PM
At the moment, I would say that we are currently somewhere in the beginning of the "production".

Well said. Both you and Roberto have been some good points here.
Maybe I am being jaded by my experiences with other products.
Maybe Lightwave will be different.

Im not keen on the nodal system because of an error I often encounter with Maya. If I create a cube & extrude it, select the cube node only and export it, there are circumstances whereby the extrude isnt exported. I have NEVER had this with Lightwave.

It also depends on how Lightwave will implement skeleton binding information using nodes. If they find a way of collapsing nodes 5,6 and 9 out of a 10 node stack, without affecting the other nodes, and keeping binding information, then I can see our studio ditching Maya completely. To me though nodes create dependency, which more often than not creates errors when they dont get what they are expecting.

Maybe I should join, to try and get my concerns addressed, and youre right - this might be the perfect time for that.

Im now actually curious to seeing the next couple of installments in the CORE saga. Not ready to part with my cash just yet though....

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 09:25 PM
I feel like apologizing to everyone at Newtek for all of this BS.



I already did that.

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 09:35 PM
I've never complained about the price..I just want a Cow primitive :D

Nicolas Jordan
02-06-2009, 09:41 PM
I guess many don't remember when Lightwave was over $2k. But then many of the "other apps" were SO FAR out of reach that most people couldn't even imagine owning a legitimate copy.



I remember back in the day when I couldn't afford a legit copy of Softimage 3D and a $10,000 SGI/Unix workstation to go along with it so that's why I got Lightwave! It was still pricey at the time but cheap compared to the competition. :)

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 09:43 PM
By the time I got an SGI, they had stopped development of LW on that platform..hehe

harlan
02-06-2009, 09:59 PM
Let me just recap: LW9.x is old codebase where developers had to find workarounds to patch and make bolt on solutions.


Exactly!! And let's not forget who coded the horrendously buggy, horribly limited, unstable and literally hacked together versions of LW, the same guys currently making Modo. Who fixed those bugs and made LW the most stable and useable version in it's history? Jay and team, the same guys making CORE.

Do you want to rely on software (modo) created by the people responsible for the hacked together, buggy, and unstable versions of LW or would you rather rely on software created by the team that not only fixed those bugs but brought it into modern times with the inclusion of a ton of new rock solid features, dramatically improved renderer, and a bullet proof new CA system?

I think I'll stick with CORE. :thumbsup:

Don't get me wrong though, Modo is one cool application - sweet UI and workflows, etc... but it's just as buggy as the older versions of LW were (at least it is on the Mac). It crashes daily and even the simplest of operations can result in freezing it up. It's a bad *** tool, but it's made by the same guys known for writing buggy, unstable, hacked together code.

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 10:06 PM
Do you want to rely on software (modo) created by the people responsible for the hacked together, buggy, and unstable versions of LW or would you rather rely on software created by the team that not only fixed those bugs but brought it into modern times with the inclusion of a ton of new rock solid features, dramatically improved renderer, and a bullet proof new CA system?


Well, to be fair to Modo developers (and you'll rarely see me do this), they started building LW at a time where programming languages were procedural and a lot less efficient then the modern day and object oriented approaches they are using now. Had there not been whatever rift between Newtek and it's old developers, they might have modernized lightwave long before now.
But that's old news. I'm glad to be getting in on Lightwave Core from the beginning. I'll be able to appreciate it that much more once it's matured.

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 10:10 PM
Thank you...finally someone else brings up the guys who made it...LOL

Modo is a cool program, and I give them props for making it..but be realistic, it does suffer from some of the same issues that LW has suffered from for years...Not saying it's hacked or anything..in fact, it was prolly the best thing to happen to LW and Lux that they split cause it forced Lux to make new code and allowed NT get the code cleaned up and finally make progress.

As for Modo 401, I would say that one will be out some time after Core, and I wouldnt be surprised if you had to pay extra for those nifty rendering things. IMO, Lux should concentrate on making Modo an excellent modeler, rather than a full rendering package.

So, yeah, I'll put my money on Core before Modo

harlan
02-06-2009, 10:13 PM
True, and I honestly wouldn't be so hard on (hehehe) the Lux guys if they'd just own up to coding the buggy LW. They'll sit there and play it off like NewTek is responsible for their ****** coding.

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 10:19 PM
True, and I honestly wouldn't be so hard on (hehehe) the Lux guys if they'd just own up to coding the buggy LW. They'll sit there and play it off like NewTek is responsible for their ****** coding.

They've never done this. You are imagining things. Link it or it didn't happen.

Here is where they do take credit for old LW:
http://www.luxology.com/company/founders.aspx

hrgiger
02-06-2009, 10:20 PM
I gotta admit, the hair in Modo looks damn nice. Replicators and volumetric lights, meh. Nothing new about that, it just depends on how they perform. If they're slow and or buggy....
They know how to give a nice presentation though. Newtek could take note. Very slick website, good quality images and videos. That's what really sells it. People over at the Lux site have been criticizing Newteks price increase but we'll just wait and see if Lux doesn't increase Modo's price once it becomes a full app. If that ever happens.

harlan
02-06-2009, 10:33 PM
They've never done this. You are imagining things. Link it or it didn't happen.

Here is where they do take credit for old LW:
http://www.luxology.com/company/founders.aspx

They're doing it right now. Perhaps I could have phrased my comment a little better initially, but go read the thread on the Lux forum about LWCORE where they allow people to ***** and moan about the buginess of LW, but never once step up and say it was their code that was so buggy.

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 10:35 PM
I gotta admit, the hair in Modo looks damn nice. Replicators and volumetric lights, meh. Nothing new about that, it just depends on how they perform. If they're slow and or buggy....
They know how to give a nice presentation though. Newtek could take note. Very slick website, good quality images and videos. That's what really sells it. People over at the Lux site have been criticizing Newteks price increase but we'll just wait and see if Lux doesn't increase Modo's price once it becomes a full app. If that ever happens.

The hair looks nice in the render..but then I've seen other s/w demos where it looked really good until it finally shipped, where it just explodes until bug fixes are made (if they are..hehe)

Modo users are really annoyed with the development of Modo atm..it's been slow and hasnt delivered what they were promised. I've been following the 401 stuff and they still havent delivered stuff that was promised for 302. I have a feeling, just by looking at Lux's history that the new render module will be an added cost..Buy Modo, then to render by the render engine...They've taken the C4d road in the past, no reason to believe they'll change..and yeah, I'll bet they get a price raise too.

Like I said, I have nothing against Modo, its a decent app and the guys in charge were good back in the day, so we'll what they can deliver :)

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 10:40 PM
The hair looks nice in the render..but then I've seen other s/w demos where it looked really good until it finally shipped, where it just explodes until bug fixes are made (if they are..hehe)

Modo users are really annoyed with the development of Modo atm..it's been slow and hasnt delivered what they were promised. I've been following the 401 stuff and they still havent delivered stuff that was promised for 302. I have a feeling, just by looking at Lux's history that the new render module will be an added cost..Buy Modo, then to render by the render engine...They've taken the C4d road in the past, no reason to believe they'll change..and yeah, I'll bet they get a price raise too.

Like I said, I have nothing against Modo, its a decent app and the guys in charge were good back in the day, so we'll what they can deliver :)

The hair/fur works fine, renders billions of polys in no time. The renderer is built in and is part of the app. It costs/will cost nothing extra. Many modo users are quite satisfied..... It's just tools.

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 10:42 PM
They're doing it right now. Perhaps I could have phrased my comment a little better initially, but go read the thread on the Lux forum about LWCORE where they allow people to ***** and moan about the buginess of LW, but never once step up and say it was their code that was so buggy.

Sorry, that's what you translated into Lux themselves saying things? Forums are full of a lot of people, that say a lot of things.

harlan
02-06-2009, 10:45 PM
I think Brad did a good job discussing CORE in his modcast, and I'm not trying to bad mouth or denigrate Allen and Stuart or anything, but the reality is that they're the ones responsible for the bugginess of LW.

I just can't imagine a time that I wouldn't step in and claim responsibility for something that people are inaccurately blaming someone else for creating when I was the one responsible for it.

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 10:46 PM
The hair fur works fine, renders billions of polys in no time. The renderer is built in and is part of the app. It costs nothing extra. Many modo users are quite satisfied..... It's just tools.

Funny, considering 401 hasnt even released. Im not bashing or anything, just that until it ships you cant really say how well something will work.

harlan
02-06-2009, 10:48 PM
Sorry, that's what you translated into Lux themselves saying things? Forums are full of a lot of people, that say a lot of things.

No, that's why I said "play it off" rather than saying that "they're claiming" or "they're implying". As I said earlier, I could've probably phrased it better, but wasn't something worth spending a lot of time on.

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 10:49 PM
Funny, considering 401 hasnt even released. Im not bashing or anything, just that until it ships you cant really say how well something will work.

I can.

harlan
02-06-2009, 10:51 PM
I can.

lol

lwanmtr
02-06-2009, 10:52 PM
I can.

Stranger!!!!!! lol

harlan
02-06-2009, 10:57 PM
Just to reiterate what I meant with my original comment:

I just can't imagine a time that I wouldn't step in and claim responsibility for something that people are inaccurately blaming someone else for creating when I was the one responsible for it. Especially when the inaccuracies are being generated on a forum that I own and routinely post at - it's just borderline dishonest in my opinion.

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 10:59 PM
This was done on a very early version, and it was a test on my old dual core box so it's noisy as i didnt dial stuff up for smoothness and has other issues.... but you can see the potential. (Lux has given me the ok to post this).

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/furgrow_001.mov

Wade
02-06-2009, 11:18 PM
This was done on a very early version, and it was a test on my old dual core box so it's noisy as i didnt dial stuff up for smoothness and has other issues.... but you can see the potential. (Lux has given me the ok to post this).

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/furgrow_001.mov

why did you not dial it up as it renders "in no time"

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 11:21 PM
why did you not dial it up as it renders "in no time"

hah! Nice. Well in that test I was using blurry reflections on the hair and while it was still decent, I was cooking it on my home box that wasen't too powerful at the time. So yes, you can slow it down...

Mike_RB
02-06-2009, 11:37 PM
Not to dig this up again. But take a look at the copywrite in modeller circa 7.5... There were legal issues that were eventually sorted between Allen/Stuart and Newtek. At the time I think (I dont know) lux did intend to take their IP they owned and rewrite it into a modern *LW* and have newtek publish it. That obviously didn't happen. And I think it's advantageous that we now have 2 products built for 'us' the LW user.

hrgiger
02-07-2009, 01:34 PM
I'm not the biggest fans of the former LW developers myself. Despite whatever the differences were between them and Newtek, I, and other users of LW, got shafted and that's the thick of it right there. But in the end, if Modo were right for me, I would use it. But it's going to take a heck of a lot more then instancing, hair, and volumetric lights which I already have with LW (HDInstance) to get me to pay $900 for just a modeler and renderer.

harlan
02-07-2009, 01:57 PM
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself megalodon & hrgiger!

I do however use modo at work out of necessity as it's part of the studio I work with occasionally pipeline. I wouldn't buy it myself though. :)

Cageman
02-07-2009, 02:13 PM
Funny, considering 401 hasnt even released. Im not bashing or anything, just that until it ships you cant really say how well something will work.

Just for your information, Mike_RB is a MODO 401 betatester. He knows things we do not. EOD!

:)

EDIT: I was just a tad bit late with that comment. :) *lol*

Cageman
02-07-2009, 02:40 PM
This was done on a very early version, and it was a test on my old dual core box so it's noisy as i didnt dial stuff up for smoothness and has other issues.... but you can see the potential. (Lux has given me the ok to post this).

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/furgrow_001.mov

Looks promising!

To be totaly honest, I'm happy to see that both NewTek and Luxology, as underdogs in the 3D-industry, have great technology. I also think that whatever happened between the devs at Luxology and NewTek, both Modo and CORE (and also LW9.x series) was the best possible that could happen; we don't have to go under the roof of AD for most of our work.

Intuition
02-07-2009, 02:47 PM
This was done on a very early version, and it was a test on my old dual core box so it's noisy as i didnt dial stuff up for smoothness and has other issues.... but you can see the potential. (Lux has given me the ok to post this).

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/furgrow_001.mov

401 is turning out well. I think the archviz people will benefit greatly from the fur when used as grass for exteriors.

I just got it running on "the farm" so I may have some tests to show soon.

I love that furgrow anim.

Mike_RB
02-07-2009, 03:06 PM
Looks promising!

To be totaly honest, I'm happy to see that both NewTek and Luxology, as underdogs in the 3D-industry, have great technology. I also think that whatever happened between the devs at Luxology and NewTek, both Modo and CORE (and also LW9.x series) was the best possible that could happen; we don't have to go under the roof of AD for most of our work.

Yeah, I've said that before. We now have 2 teams making software 'how we like to work'. Excellent. And since core is going in a different direction than modo (full scene graph, ambitious), even better.

Cageman
02-07-2009, 03:19 PM
Yeah, I've said that before. We now have 2 teams making software 'how we like to work'. Excellent. And since core is going in a different direction than modo (full scene graph, ambitious), even better.

Yeah... and... if you bare with me here for a moment. Remeber the website in a viewport thing and the sentence "..or anything else for that matter" (yes, I know you hate the presentation)... but, that alone indicates that you could have Modo running in a viewport in CORE (for screen estate or simply being able to update the model in Modo and reload it into CORE without minmizing/maximizing different apps).

I would say that that is COOL STUFF... different apps, but under the same roof, so to speak...

Mike_RB
02-07-2009, 03:22 PM
Yeah... and... if you bare with me here for a moment. Remeber the website in a viewport thing and the sentence "..or anything else for that matter" (yes, I know you hate the presentation)... but, that alone indicates that you could have Modo running in a viewport in CORE (for screen estate or simply being able to update the model in Modo and reload it into CORE without minmizing/maximizing different apps).

I would say that that is COOL STUFF... different apps, but under the same roof, so to speak...

Hah, neat idea. Curious to see that in action. Could you ID the browser they put in there, did they load firefox into the window? I have a feeling it's not 'anything' but anything you 'write as a plugin'. :)

Cageman
02-07-2009, 03:25 PM
Hah, neat idea. Curious to see that in action. Could you ID the browser they put in there, did they load firefox into the window? I have a feeling it's not 'anything' but anything you 'write as a plugin'. :)

Hmm...you are probably right about that... there are not enough quality on the videos to be able to see exactly what is going on.... Hopefully I'm correct.

But, I will join hardcore and being able to route ANY application window into a viewport in CORE is something I'll defenately will request!

:)

-EsHrA-
02-07-2009, 05:21 PM
why request?!.. :)

they said 'anything' didnt they?


mlon

Earl
02-07-2009, 07:34 PM
And I think it's advantageous that we now have 2 products built for 'us' the LW user.
This is the key, and why I no longer hold a grudge against Luxology (I did for quite a while). I am of complete confidence that the LightWave product is stronger now because they left. I think the direction it was going while they were leading the team was wrong, and although we had to endure the 8.x series during the transition, this new LightWave team is taking the product exactly where I think it should have gone long ago. I think it's going to be more powerful because of it, and ultimately all the things that I wished LightWave could have done back in the 5.x/6.x/7.x days, it will now be capable of doing with Core. And in the meantime, 9.x was a pretty kick*ss cycle.

On the other side of the issue: it's obvious that modo could not have existed under NewTek's umbrella. Brad, Allen, and Stuart had their own vision and they needed to be calling all the shots in order for that vision to develop. The result: an exceptional modeling solution with top-notch rendering that's on its way to be a full platform. They were able to implement features I wanted in LW long ago, in a fairly short amount of time (construction planes, snapping, instancing, texture painting, to name a few).

And who knows, there might just be a place for modo in my LightWave pipeline someday. There are only a few "holes" in modo that are holding me back right now.

Ågrén
02-07-2009, 07:43 PM
401 is turning out well. I think the archviz people will benefit greatly from the fur when used as grass for exteriors.

I just got it running on "the farm" so I may have some tests to show soon.

I love that furgrow anim.

Reflection quality looks useless in that video.
EDIT: hOh, it's not Luxology's own demo, nvm.

Wade
02-07-2009, 07:46 PM
allright - anything in any window maybe photoshop to paint on a model in real time while whatching it update in the scene? who knows?

Photoshop and LW have been my bread and butter.

Mike_RB
02-07-2009, 07:50 PM
Reflection quality looks useless in that video.
EDIT: hOh, it's not Luxology's own demo, nvm.

Yeah, that was a quick test I did quite a while ago, Bob at Lux gave me permission to post it about as people were asking if the fur parameters could be animated.

vncnt
02-08-2009, 12:17 AM
It's true $395 is something in current context, but remember that modo is $895, so I think it's still a bargain (if, of course, there's more than what was shown so far)


And they add $84 for shipping from US to EU and the shop doesn't even mention VAT or BTW. Better wait for a deal on www.newtek-europe.com

jaxtone
02-08-2009, 01:10 AM
I see your point there "safetyman" and are really sorry to say this!

If a movie trailer would have been such a disaster in its presentation and quality, would you have been interested in seing the whole film? One hour late, lousy quality and lack of information about itīs content!

If you still have an interest in seeing a feature film after these conditions I can offer you a private show off to watch my new film that has itīs premiere in about letīs say... hmm, three hours after production start!

:D


I think before the haters pass judgement, we should get ALL the facts. This was merely a teaser (like a movie teaser before the official trailer comes out). Don't donk it off before you've seen everything that it can do. Granted, the presentation was low quality and you couldn't see much, but that was the kinda the point -- not to give you everything now, but just a taste.

vncnt
02-08-2009, 01:32 AM
Newtek missed the boat here, the first opportunity to make the best impression. The presentation was as anti climactic as it could have been.
By the way, I don't buy that something happened to the original presentation so they came up with this last minute.. What could happen to do this? If this was the case, they're incompetent and shouldn't be trusted to accomplish anything.

Actually, I'm glad Newtek didn't spent too much money on the video. That money should be invested in order to develop new features that will enable us to compete with other 3D houses.

Personally I think it very wise to change the businessmodel slightly. This will reduce development costs/risks. Aren't we already used to the fact that Newtek is adding features in .x releases?

Also very wise to set a long term goal with the introduction of version 10. LW 9 was a bit too much of the same for me (I already use sasquatch for fur/hair) but the improvement of the bones system was a very welcome update for character animation.

In the near future I think Newtek should listen more to character animators because Lightwave is lacking features in this area. The only way for Newtek to find out which features is to go thru the process.

Example #1: when adding lip-sync animation I need to adjust the start and end frame of my preview very often. Again and again. With some scene planning it shouldn't be too difficult to devide a scene into smaller parts (emotion range, part of a sentence, etc) so I could switch between several preview ranges much faster.
This is not just an idea. It is a frustrating daily routine because we're doing the same process over and over again while knowing there is a solution: you may name it interactive X-sheets or just scene planning, I don't care.

Example #2: deformation presets - just a bunch of buttons in one global window that recalls bone transformation, morphsettings, dynamics, anything. Anything that makes the character animator happy to construct a dramatic performance.
Add tabs on that window to switch to other characters and add tabs that concentrate on shapes for mouth, eyelids, cheeks, general facial expressions.
Currently, a character animator needs to be a 50% TD guy in order to find the right tools to set the right poses.

Until now, Newtek hasn't been able to add these kind of simple UI related features that will speedup production.

To me it seems that LW CORE has that ability to grow into a piece of software that really understands what 3D business is all about: (1) making money to pay the rent AND (2) having fun during the process AND (3) making animations that will be remembered and keep business going.

GandB
02-09-2009, 09:06 AM
Actually, I'm glad Newtek didn't spent too much money on the video. That money should be invested in order to develop new features that will enable us to compete with other 3D houses.
Actually; you'd get more development money from more sales/pre-sales of CORE....by having a good advertising "kickoff". It's that whole "you've got to spend money to make money" angle. Continues to work for many businesses throughout the world...otherwise, many here would be out of a job. ;)

-Keith

adamredwoods
02-09-2009, 11:05 AM
This was done on a very early version, and it was a test on my old dual core box so it's noisy as i didnt dial stuff up for smoothness and has other issues.... but you can see the potential. (Lux has given me the ok to post this).

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/furgrow_001.mov

I liked that hair demo, so I tried the same thing in FiberFX 9.6.... not so good.
Found a few more bugs while I was at it....