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Adrian Lopez
02-04-2009, 07:15 PM
Dear Newtek,

My decision to upgrade to Lightwave CORE or not shall depend in part upon your answers to the following questions:


I'm disappointed by the announcement that point upgrades shall require a subscription. Will bugfix patches, at least, be free, or will those require a subscription as well? I'm afraid that Newtek is becoming more like Autodesk when one of the reasons I'd rather buy Lightwave instead of a competing package is precisely because Newtek isn't Autodesk.

Will everybody who purchases Lightwave CORE have access to the SDK and documentation? Will the licensing of the SDK be similar to what we currently have for Lightwave v9, or will its use be restricted in a manner more similar to its competitors' SDK's (such as needing permission to publish commercial plugins)?

What sort of licensing system will Lightwave CORE use? Will licenses be tied to dongles or to hardware? Can the license be moved? What brand of licensing system have you chosen? Again, I'm trying to determine whether Lightwave CORE shall offer me the flexibility that its competition does not.

PS - I encourage others to post their own questions here, as well.

joeldberry
02-04-2009, 07:18 PM
What if we are HARDCORE members, but decide NOT to sign up for another year? Does that make our current license for whatever the current version is invalid? Do we lose access/use of that license when we do not "re-up" a subscription?

robertn2k
02-04-2009, 07:23 PM
What about educational pricing? Educators at every level and grade are having their budgets cut and teachers and staff are being laid off. Newtek has always been good to educational market making lab packs and seats reasonable priced. What happens to us now.

G-Man
02-04-2009, 07:28 PM
I want to see more demos before I plop down even $50 bucks. Was todays look just smoke and mirrors or is there a lot more?

achrystie
02-04-2009, 07:32 PM
In addition to the questions above, I'll add mine.

1) How will network rendering be handled? Is the CORE system still going to adhere to Lightwaves "extensive" number of free nodes (999) or is there some sort of new pricing similar to the competition where we pay per node? Has the Screamernet software been rewritten to accommodate network rendering with this new CORE?

2) What features are "not" in CORE, that were already in LW 9.6, and of those features, what will be added prior to Q4 2009? Another way to put it is, what is going to go in the base package now, in the future, and what will be "solely" supplied by third parties? An example would be, for years, LW had, at best, limited hair and fur support internally, but there were 2-3 plugins available for years, are we going back to that model, or will CORE include all the standard features of 9.6, as supplied by Newtek, polygonal modeling, animation, rendering, particles, hair and fur, and hard and soft body dynamics including cloth?

3) Does the CORE support both polygonal and nurbs surfaces? Even if nurbs modeling is not in CORE, is the system flexible enough to allow a different geometry type via third party plugin?

hrgiger
02-04-2009, 08:08 PM
Dear Newtek,

My decision to upgrade to Lightwave CORE or not shall depend in part upon your answers to the following questions:


I'm disappointed by the announcement that point upgrades shall require a subscription. Will bugfix patches, at least, be free, or will those require a subscription as well? I'm afraid that Newtek is becoming more like Autodesk when one of the reasons I'd rather buy Lightwave instead of a competing package is precisely because Newtek isn't Autodesk.

Will everybody who purchases Lightwave CORE have access to the SDK and documentation? Will the licensing of the SDK be similar to what we currently have for Lightwave v9, or will its use be restricted in a manner more similar to its competitors' SDK's (such as needing permission to publish commercial plugins)?

What sort of licensing system will Lightwave CORE use? Will licenses be tied to dongles or to hardware? Can the license be moved? What brand of licensing system have you chosen? Again, I'm trying to determine whether Lightwave CORE shall offer me the flexibility that its competition does not.


I can answer at least part of the second one. They specifically stated in the video that everyone will have the same level of access to the SDK as Lightwave developers. Not sure about the permission of publishing commercial plug-ins.
Did they mention point upgrades in the video? I admit, I'm a little unclear as to the new pricing policy and how it will all work.

hrgiger
02-04-2009, 08:09 PM
I want to see more demos before I plop down even $50 bucks. Was todays look just smoke and mirrors or is there a lot more? I doubt there's any smoke and mirrors going on there but I agree, it would be nice to see some more before expecting a lot of people to purchase/upgrade.

KevinL
02-04-2009, 08:21 PM
:thumbsdow:I didn't get to see the video, due to the big FUBAR.
Still don't know what CORE is (yes I read the little diddy, talking a lot about the programming base and what that would enable)

My question, would be, if you buy in and you get the first beta/development what do you see?

How does it compare to the LW 9.6 release. New features (right now, not what might be developed) bug fixes, stability, useability, interface....

And, oh yeah... to all the people who talked up the subscription model for purchase...
Thanks for Nothing.... I knew having a bunch of end users yakking up marketing and pricing strategy would lead to this kind of BS. Like walking into the car dealer and telling them I think the manufacturer should have priced the car 22% higher and it's really valuable to have the undercoating.... WHAT! the price just went up 50%.... why would you do that. And please don't tell me about the "if it leads to more sound development then it's worth it..." argument. It's bas-akwards logic.

So! What is CORE? Still don't really know and sure as h*** don't what to plop down money in a rush to "get the deal"

Kevin L

LW_Will
02-04-2009, 08:37 PM
I think it could be a deal breaker if I don't get my hands on CORE, just to try for a week or two, before I commit to this new arrangement.

I mean, I was used to upgrading to get more of the same, but this is all new.

I just want to know I'll be able to use this package before I give you all another $400. I'm just crazy that way.

Amurrell
02-04-2009, 08:52 PM
What if we are HARDCORE members, but decide NOT to sign up for another year? Does that make our current license for whatever the current version is invalid? Do we lose access/use of that license when we do not "re-up" a subscription?

Good question. This is something that I would like to know as well.

Skinner3D
02-04-2009, 08:56 PM
:agree: With Kevin (without the flames :D ). What is CORE? I was in college from 9-6 today so when I finally did remember what today was, the video was unavailable.

As for subscription, (since I didn't see movie this might be dumb question) where did that rumor start? I can subscribe to this thread which doesn't involve money at all.

Lightwave is my favorite modeling program EVER :D and I will continue to use it for as long as I possibly can. If the money thing is true it may set me back a bit (college, what more can I say:)).

Anyway, my two cents :newtek::rock:

dgrigo
02-04-2009, 09:06 PM
Well subscription sounds fishy to me.. with current economy situation..
I would had no problem to preorder, and for 495 no problem.. Why even stay with NT if you are not going hardcore, so no need for special forums imo.
Another thing that was always bothered me was the pricing in Europe.
Your dealers ask for much more. How i know? i was working for one in Greece for 15 years and in the meantime i met many from Europe in IBC or NAB shows.
We European citizens getting ripped off for good.
I have the same questions as the other posters, and i prefer to pay per release.
Who can assure me what i will get with the next year subscription plan?
Exactly what I, or some of us say for Autodesk, they get subscription money and Innovation halt. Or getting weak futures on the updates.
As a user, i want to have the last word as if i will put my money to an update, or skip it altogether.
I am not saying i don't believe in the core, even if presentation was small and we were hoping for more, its good to see the Lightwave drop the restrictions of the past.
Kudos to the developer team for this!

/wave

Amurrell
02-04-2009, 09:08 PM
I think I answered my question
"All LightWave users have the opportunity to join the HardCORE™ team. LightWave v9 owners may join through a Charter Member program. Those new to LightWave or purchasing LightWave v9 upgrades will receive a one-year membership with their purchase."

Then
"* LightWave v9 owners gain HardCORE™ membership for US$395 (Charter Member price) through March 31, 2009, beginning April 1, HardCORE™ annual memberships for LightWave v9 owners will increase to US$495.
* LightWave owners using any previous version of LightWave may upgrade to LightWave v9 US$495 and receive a one year membership to HardCORE™ .
* Companion Upgrades to LightWave v9 will only be available through March 31, 2009 at a cost of US$595 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ .
* New LightWave v9 purchases are available for US$895 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ . "

About upgrades:
"LightWave CORE™ will retail for US$1495, LightWave CORE™ upgrades will be US$695."

So what I am understanding is that if you join HardCORE then you get a discount on releases with your annual membership but this membership is voluntary(?). Upgrades without membership to HardCORE will cost $695. Is that correct?

KevinL
02-04-2009, 09:14 PM
Andrew,
Finally got to see the video. Yes, you are correct!

As to the flames, I usually don't... but I figured a little payback for building this up, burning a lot of my time (yes I had a problem with staying away from the speculation forums and teases) and then not having a robust delivery for the announcement in place was reaonable.

Kevin L

beverins
02-04-2009, 09:18 PM
I second the request about EDU pricing!

jpleonard
02-04-2009, 09:25 PM
I'm all for it. Development cost money. I like using lightwave and have never had a problem with Newtek or thier pricing plan. I don't see it really costing much more to keep up with the newest versions of core even if it is a yearly subscription.

I use lightwave for all my income working as a full time freelancer and have managed to support me, my wife, and kids for the last two years with no problem. Anyone using Lightwave who is making a reasonable living with it should not have any problems paying a few hundred dollars, or even a thousand, to keep the software up to date and moving ahead of the curve of current technology, or at least keeping up with it.

Great Move NewTek, I'll be paying for my subscription by the end of next week, or by month's end at the latest. I can't wait to see what the future holds for us.

rakker16mm
02-04-2009, 09:32 PM
So far I'm loving what I am seeing and I am ready to jump onboard for the ride.

However I am also the owner of a Dual 2 GHz PowerPC G5 and I am not sure that Core will run on my current machine. Of course I will be upgrading my tower in the future but in this time of belt tightening that day seems to be getting postponed indefinitely, yet Core is something I could afford now and will be happy to buy if I can use it.

Best Regards,

the Story Wolf

cresshead
02-04-2009, 09:32 PM
couple of Q's

1.will the beta of lw core due to ship before 31 march be a full app and not just say the modeler part...basically will we be able to model animate and render with it from day 1

2. will the beta be available to download BEFORE 31march discounted price deadline? that's to say no 6 month waiting yeah!

thanks in advance

richcz3
02-04-2009, 09:32 PM
OK - So I'm a LW9 owner and I click in the Core Banner
Click Join Now for the $395 offer and it takes me to the basic login with no mention of Core or how to pay.

Did I miss something?
Anyone have any ideas?

Alliante
02-04-2009, 09:41 PM
OK - So I'm a LW9 owner and I click in the Core Banner
Click Join Now for the $395 offer and it takes me to the basic login with no mention of Core or how to pay.

Did I miss something?
Anyone have any ideas?

Yeah I bet it's (the link is) not ready yet, wait a day or two. I've got card in hand too :)

We've got a few weeks. They just recovered from effectively a DDoS on the webservers, hehehe.

And I can't WAIT to see what's in my sig be real :)

dgrigo
02-04-2009, 09:45 PM
James,
I guess its not constructive in any way telling us development cost money..
We already know that.
Some of us are not using Lightwave for living, Is NT prepared to lose the Hobbyists cause of that.
and btw this thread is about : Questions about CORE
what you supply to the thread? a fun boy answer?

KevinL
02-04-2009, 09:59 PM
from the irritation over the bobble on the "reveal" Time to get real.

Before I plunk down money, what am I buying. Not the promise but the tangible.
===============================================
What will currently available LW features look like in CORE.

Some critical questions, will the tools I have right now be in CORE, in some form of same or better usability. As of right now (first release) can I start working.


How do legacy scenes behave in CORE. If needing conversion, will all current 9.6 work transport or will I be rebuilding. Legacy models, particle work, etc?

Will my current plugins I’ve bought still work, partially work or totally be broke.

Graph Editor, Scene Editor, Sliders?

Surfacing with layer system still available? I haven’t wrapped my head around nodes yet.

Out of the box, can I do everything I can currently do right now in 9.6 or will there be holes awaiting development/buggy portions?

Is the learning curve going to fold me over and snap me in half?

When will I know a lot more about what I would be subscribing to?

Thank You

Kevin L

Lito
02-04-2009, 10:02 PM
Are official point releases still going to be free or only available to Hardcore subscribers? For example using LW9.0, would LW9.2, LW9.3, LW9.5, and LW9.6 have been free and available to me if my subscription ran out?

I agree with the sentiment though, I want to join up but I won't until there is something to actually download and try out.

digefxgrp
02-04-2009, 10:02 PM
OK - So I'm a LW9 owner and I click in the Core Banner
Click Join Now for the $395 offer and it takes me to the basic login with no mention of Core or how to pay.
As of now I don't think NT is setup to receive orders for LWC. Since it was already after hours when they got their web pages updated, it probably won't be until tomorrow, at the earliest, that they'll start taking pre-orders.

firstsingle
02-04-2009, 10:05 PM
Change is always tough on us local villagers. We'll all have to find a way to be apart of the future. If one simply can't afford to upgrade to, or keep up with your core subscriptions, it's ok. You can still create art with the tools you have already.

OK, here is my question.

At the time of your upgrade to LW v9 you get a subscription to LW Core and the current version of LW Core?
For your subscription period you get all the updates and benefits? To continue the fun, simply subscribe again.
So LW core is always an app I can work with? Or is it disabled when my subscription ends?

What I'm asking is, does LW core come with your subscription, or do you have to pay for the app separately?

dglidden
02-04-2009, 10:11 PM
I didn't get to see the video, so I apologise if any of these were answered in the video. I'm looking at the core site and I can't figure out the pricing.

I absolutely want to know what has already been asked: if I decide not to renew my "membership" for HardCORE does my application stop running?

As has also been asked by the OP, if I let my first year subscription expire, and point releases require the membership, what about plain old bug fixes? (NT has traditionally released only point releases, and only very rarely can I remember them releasing anything like a bugfix revision.) Do I have to keep my "membership" up to get those updates too? If so then let's not beat around the bush and let's call this a "service contract", not a "membership." (I feel the same re: his NewTek vs Autodesk comments. NT has traditionally never nickel-and-dimed its users to death, which lets a lot of smaller shops and hobbyists use LW versus the "bigger" guys. I don't like the way this new direction sounds.)

I'm also curious about how the licensing is going to work. Will I be able to use the same license separately on my Mac and Linux (yay) workstations? (As you can now use Mac/Windows by moving the dongle from one machine to the other) Or will that require two licenses?

It says that part of the subscription is "continued updates to LightWave v9". Does that mean I need to pay now to get any further v9 updates, like the (long rumored and anticipated) 64-bit Mac UB?

"First to receive the COCOA version of LightWave" Don't us Mac users already have that with 9.6? If not, then what do we have? And does this imply no further v9 Cocoa development? Realistically, does anyone expect the initial release to be bug-free? CORE.1, or whatever it will be called, is likely to be on the heels of the initial release. What if that falls outside the 12-month window? Will CORE effectively cost $395+$495 to be usable?

The "Charter" membership price of $395 is basically early beta access? Since we're still looking at the most part of a year before the final release is even scheduled there won't be much of that first year left by the time it is released. (And what if the schedule slips outside the 12 month subscription time?)

"beginning April 1, HardCORE™ annual memberships for LightWave v9 owners will increase to US$495." "LightWave CORE™ will retail for US$1495, LightWave CORE™ upgrades will be US$695." Forgive me for being dense, but I really don't get it. How much will it actually cost me in the end if I own LW9 and how much will it continue to cost me? If I can pay $695 for an upgrade, what's the $395/495 "annual membership" for? If I can get the "annual membership" for $495 why would I ever want to pay $695 for an upgrade? Do I have to upgrade _and_ get a membership? If previous users can upgrade to v9 for $495 and get a CORE membership, why is there even a pricing listed for "CORE upgrades"?

Why should I trust that, once I've paid $495 for the first year and CORE becomes a critical part of my workflow, NT won't decide to up the annual service fee to $1495 the next year? Will they raise the price? Probably not. Do I implicitly "trust" NT to not do that? No; they are a company whose charter is to make money and if it's in the interest of the business to raise the price, that is what they will do. This is why I don't like a "subscription" model, and the way that it's being couched as a "Membership" is kinda sleazy.

I don't make a living with LightWave. I'm what you'd call a hobbyist or casual user, I make 3d art for fun. I don't really want to have to keep paying and keep paying to keep using LW. As much as I do like LightWave, and I really really do, it's not worth it for me, nor can I realistically justify it, to keep paying every year for the same software. Everything technical about CORE excites me, but NT needs to clear up these pricing questions so we can be less skeptical about the future of LightWave.

kojean
02-04-2009, 10:13 PM
(Reposting here in the hopes of getting an official answer.)

The pricing FAQ only seems to explain the first year when CORE is released.

Can we get a definitive official answer on the price for an owner of CORE LW10.0 to download standard bugfixes and .x point version updates after the first year of membership runs out?

If I own CORE and let my membership run out on March 31, 2010, then there is a 10.1.1 release in June 2010 can I download it or not? Will that cost another $495?

Will it cost me another $495 each and every following year if I want to be able to download the current version updates?

If that's how it's going to work, is there any thought of a perpetual discounted renewal rate for Charter Hardcore members?

All the new features that CORE brings to table look exciting, but this kind of annual fee (if there is indeed such an annual fee) will put CORE out of my reach for now.

leroy3rd
02-04-2009, 10:21 PM
(Another repost, also hoping for an official answer)

I'm a hobbyist working under an educational version since 7.5. Any idea if I'll be able to take advantage of the $395 offer? My wife is really on the fence, as $395 is quite a lot to us (especially for a hobby). The consensus is: If I can be brought in at the $395 offer, we can find the money, otherwise, I'll be sticking to 9.6 for a long time. :-(

-LeRoy3rd

calilifestyle
02-04-2009, 10:26 PM
How can they trade mark the word hardCORE ? or even just CORE

GraphXs
02-04-2009, 10:28 PM
Not sure if this is how it works, but it sounds like the $695 upgrade price is what a user will pay if they don't want to the the Hardcore-membership of 395/495 a year price. And the 695 version LW Core will work with not having to pay the 395/495 fee a year. I think that how it works?

Oh, and another thing, how do an plug-in developers feel about core? Is Newtek working with the main ones to help them get their plugins up to date on core? (Worley, TrueArts, LWCad)

What about FiberFx, Hypervoxels, sticky, the surface editor, IK Booster type of system (layered version). Will Core feature all the great stuff Newtek current version of LW alreay has?

One more thing, are the tools in modeller still based on postion of the cursor for modelling w/ the option of using gizmos? (Please say yes, I love the freeform feel of using the mouse postion for tools.)

Looks like a great tool! The future of LW looks bright!:thumbsup::lwicon:

dgrigo
02-04-2009, 10:29 PM
HardCORE™ annual memberships for LightWave v9 owners will increase to US$495.

So that's the price of the subscription plan for the first year if you miss the deadline.. who knows about next year.

calilifestyle
02-04-2009, 10:31 PM
Oh and "Continued updates to LightWave v9 " so i guess those that don't become core members are stuck with 9.6 and stuck with any bugs . i have been on the fence about trying out some other program. This might help.

dgrigo
02-04-2009, 10:31 PM
@GraphX
Yeah i guess, only problem is withought subscription no bug fixes or point updates.. stuck :(

waverguy
02-04-2009, 11:10 PM
Oh and "Continued updates to LightWave v9 " so i guess those that don't become core members are stuck with 9.6 and stuck with any bugs . i have been on the fence about trying out some other program. This might help.

I hear ya. The pricing seems really confusing and NewTek needs to be more clear. All the questions asked in this thread are good and I can't wait for someone to answer them. I'm not sure what other programs to try out. I was thinking about 3D coat. I actually downloaded blender a few weeks back but haven't had time to play with it. The price is right...:D

Wickster
02-04-2009, 11:19 PM
(Another repost, also hoping for an official answer)

I'm a hobbyist working under an educational version since 7.5. Any idea if I'll be able to take advantage of the $395 offer? My wife is really on the fence, as $395 is quite a lot to us (especially for a hobby). The consensus is: If I can be brought in at the $395 offer, we can find the money, otherwise, I'll be sticking to 9.6 for a long time. :-(

-LeRoy3rd
If you've started with an EDU version of LW 7.5, sis you buy the upgrades to 8/9.6? Cause if you did then You're not running an EDU version anymore, you're running a commercial version of LW 9.6. Which makes you OK to participate in the HardCORE program ($395).

If you're still using the EDU version of 7.5, your upgrade path is another $100 to purchase LW 9.6 at $495 I think, with free access to the HardCORE program.

That's from what I understand.

jin choung
02-04-2009, 11:20 PM
MY CONTINUING WITH LW DEPENDS ON THE ANSWER TO THIS so i hope it will be answered promptly:

- can you SKIP upgrades and then jump back in several versions down as with adobe products? or is it like autodesk where if you lapse for long enough, your ability to upgrade is terminated.

jin

cyatic
02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
I have to agree, I'm not really liking the subscription model. What's to say Newtek doesn't raise the rates next year, as long as they keep it under Autodesk's price it can be sold to us. What if I buy in and decide not to continue with a subscription, does Lightwave Core stop working? Do I have to go back to 9.6 in order to continue working? I don't think I'm going to be putting money down without actually seeing something.

Dexter2999
02-04-2009, 11:35 PM
Well, if you don't like subscriptions...I guess you are looking at C4D or Blender? Because the other three major packages are all on subscriptions.

By the way, Adobe has been talking about going to subscriptions for over a year.

Seems like quite a price bump, but I can't say it isn't worth it. I am with Jin, I won't mind the uprgade policy as long as I can skip a point release or two without penalty when I can afford to upgrade.

Also, the way I understand it, Mac users and Linux users will be up to speed on all plug ins? Am I the only one that understood it that way? All plugs will only have one version from now on and they will work in all OS's? Sweet.

calilifestyle
02-04-2009, 11:37 PM
I have to agree, I'm not really liking the subscription model. What's to say Newtek doesn't raise the rates next year, as long as they keep it under Autodesk's price it can be sold to us. What if I buy in and decide not to continue with a subscription, does Lightwave Core stop working? Do I have to go back to 9.6 in order to continue working? I don't think I'm going to be putting money down without actually seeing something.

Naw highly doubt that. this seems a lot more like AM:hash was/is. I do agree with few others that posted ,this feel like you guys are going to get stuck paying to be a beta tester. i don't see a problem with that if you have time. Again if you upgrade to next version you get a whole year of 9.6xx/10.xx Rev. updates right. I mean most people tend to update ever year anyway. I rather update ever few versions. so i have the question as Jin had.

jin choung
02-04-2009, 11:40 PM
Well, if you don't like subscriptions...I guess you are looking at C4D or Blender? Because the other three major packages are all on subscriptions.

By the way, Adobe has been talking about going to subscriptions for over a year.

Seems like quite a price bump, but I can't say it isn't worth it. I am with Jin, I won't mind the uprgade policy as long as I can skip a point release or two without penalty when I can afford to upgrade.

Also, the way I understand it, Mac users and Linux users will be up to speed on all plug ins? Am I the only one that understood it that way? All plugs will only have one version from now on and they will work in all OS's? Sweet.

maya is always provided at work.

for my home rig - blender. absolutely. i will throw my energies into blender. maybe even look at what modo has going on.

not much could have pushed me to abandoning lw at this point but an annual subscription is an ABSOLUTE deal breaker for me. philisophically everything that software subscriptions represent, i detest, loathe, despise. it is as offensive to me as piracy. more actually.

i despise the idea of WoW for heaven's sakes!

the surest way they have of getting rid of me is to make the subscriptions unskippable. my response will be EXTREMELY swift.

jin

jin choung
02-04-2009, 11:47 PM
By the way, Adobe has been talking about going to subscriptions for over a year.

that would put adobe the same boat for me then.

adobe's always be a cool company for me because even though i feel their products are RIDICULOUSLY OVERPRICED, they are very cool with their upgrade policy... can always upgrade to the latest version at the same price as anyone else.

this offered a nice little BACK DOOR for budget conscious people of getting older versions off ebay and get current for $295 or whatever. that offset the ridiculous overpricing... ($600 for photoshop in this day and age?!)

if they go subscription, i shall cease being an adobe customer.

jin

Dexter2999
02-04-2009, 11:47 PM
Actually Jin, even at work...mandatory annual subscription fees would force me to Blender. My boss won't pay it. Maybe they would but it would mean I couldn't keep my other software up to date. I get "X" dollars a year to keep my station up to date. If I have to spend a quarter of that (or more depending on the year) to keep LW up to date. I will have to look at Blender as 99% of my work is just spinny logo stuff.

adamredwoods
02-04-2009, 11:48 PM
Here's my question:

Will the hardCORE membership also give free beer?

cyatic
02-04-2009, 11:50 PM
I might have to consider looking into Blender 3D as well. From what I've seen it's capable of some great work. I held off before because of the interface, but I might just have to invest a little more time with it. I'll still have LW 9.6. I think Newtek needs to just clarify the whole thing a little better, otherwise they're going to have a lot more people watching from the stands.

evolross
02-04-2009, 11:59 PM
There's WAY to many unknowns to throw down $395! Who cares if you get the final version in Q4... what if it is missing major functionality!?

One of the most irritating things about the presentation was the skimpy feature demos, but then a total Buy N' Large-style "BUY NOW! BUY NOW! BUY NOW!" push at the end. That just didn't feel like Newtek.

I immediately thought... "Um... I don't think so."

waverguy
02-05-2009, 12:08 AM
I might have to consider looking into Blender 3D as well. From what I've seen it's capable of some great work. I held off before because of the interface, but I might just have to invest a little more time with it. I'll still have LW 9.6. I think Newtek needs to just clarify the whole thing a little better, otherwise they're going to have a lot more people watching from the stands.

From my understanding the blender interface is being worked on.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 12:12 AM
the surest way they have of getting rid of me is to make the subscriptions unskippable. my response will be EXTREMELY swift.

jin

Maybe I'm missing something but there are no subscriptions other then to the hardcore membership which is optional. Upgrades will cost you but that's not the same as an annual subscription as its your decision as to when it's time to upgrade. Whether they will allow you to skip an upgrade and then upgrade to the following upgrade for the same price remains to be seen. I hope so myself, and it would make sense that you should be able to. What if a upgrade focuses heavily on rendering and lighting, but you're strictly a rigger or modeler? It seems fair that you should be able to upgrade when you are ready.

TimothyB
02-05-2009, 12:13 AM
I'm confused, the whole membership thing is advertised as "Want to be the first to get your hands on this technology?," a way to start having fun early, and one of the benefits is you get the shipping version of Core on top of access to Beta. And the video the guy mentions you can choose the $695 upgrade later when it's released, or save now with the membership.

I don't see anywhere that if you stopped your membership after the first year after getting LW10 Core final version that you'd lose it. All I see is a way to prepay for a lower price and get a bunch of cool benefits for a while.

Some people say you'd never get bug fixes. I'd understand no access to betas that are testing bugs fixes, but do people get that those bug fixes would never get in the hands non-hardcore uses once out of Beta and not a 0.5 release?

If there is a 0.5 upgrade, like 10.5, why are people calling that a full upgrade as if some how skipping it to wait for 11 that you'd have to buy a whole new license because you were too far behind without a membership. I see nothing to indicate that. Wouldn't skipping version 11 and trying to go from 10 to 12 be the case, not a 0.5 update? I can't imagine them punishing you for skipping a 0.5 update.

Also, why would someone pay $495 yearly for a possible 0.5 update thats not guaranteed. Do 0.5 updates normally cost that much with this kind of software? Seems like it would cost more to purchase two 0.5 updates over two years than to just go from 10 to 11 at $695.

I'm writing all this because I keep seeing such things posted with nothing to back it up and just make no sense to me if true. If I bought the 9.6 companion upgrade at $595 with one year membership, I'd get the full LW10 Core version when it's released at no cost. Sort of like how some companies offer free upgrades if you buy right away near a pending release. I'd not bother with another year of hardcore and just use 10 until 11 rolls out and I'd consider upgrading, just like any program from one major version to the next.

I hope this is all straightened out soon :(

Dexter2999
02-05-2009, 12:18 AM
Well, this is speculation. I kind of jumped to the conclusion based on this announcement combined with the one from SIGGRAPH where they hinted about stopping free point upgrades. In this announcement they are referring to benefit in increments of a year.


EDIT:: I am going to try to jump on the hardcore early upgrade offer for at least one of my personal LW licenses.

jin choung
02-05-2009, 12:25 AM
Maybe I'm missing something but there are no subscriptions other then to the hardcore membership which is optional.

no... they are scheduling a paid upgrade EVERY YEAR now.

and if upgrading is NOT OPTIONAL, then it is exactly the same as autodesk. everything else is semantics. the KEY POINT is "ANNUAL PAID UPGRADE".

so if i upgrade to 10 and then can't skip 11 and 12 and then upgrade to 13, it's a LOCK IN program.

f that.

jin

TimothyB
02-05-2009, 12:32 AM
I kind of see this particular situation as a way to lock you in since Core is about a year off. To get you to go through with that they are offering a lower price to use their unfinished beta product for now with the offer of still getting the full shipping version in the end.

I hope they don't adopt some kind of system that doesn't let you upgrade if two versions behind, like from 10 to 12. I mean, a lot of times that's not enough change to make you want to put your money down. I see that all the time with adobe products. Maybe make the upgrade a little more expensive for those two behind, but not a full license. Adobe even is offer a special for a limited time at the beginning of CS4 so the upgrade to older users is the same as people with CS3 to CS4.

Earl
02-05-2009, 12:36 AM
and if upgrading is NOT OPTIONAL, then it is exactly the same as autodesk. everything else is semantics. the KEY POINT is "ANNUAL PAID UPGRADE".

If this is the case then I totally agree. It would be nice to get an official word on this from NewTek.

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 12:39 AM
no... they are scheduling a paid upgrade EVERY YEAR now.

and if upgrading is NOT OPTIONAL, then it is exactly the same as autodesk. everything else is semantics. the KEY POINT is "ANNUAL PAID UPGRADE".

so if i upgrade to 10 and then can't skip 11 and 12 and then upgrade to 13, it's a LOCK IN program.

f that.

jin

Pet something Fuzzy Jin, you're boiling over. I believe the upgrading will be optional, but I also believe I very well could be wrong. For that, we'll just have to wait for a final answer from Newtek. Yes, I know they are planning an upgrade every year. Personally, if this thing delivers I'll probably want to upgrade every year. I hate waiting a couple years for an upgrade.
You may just want to see what you're going to get for $395 before you f that.

stevets
02-05-2009, 01:19 AM
Looking at the broader perspective....at a cost of ~$1.00 per day you can fund your CORE program. Not much of a burden.

Starbucks wants $4 bucks for a cup of coffee/day.
You pay ~$10,000 dollars per gallon for printer ink (95% Water!)
Wall street partying with your 401k's
etc...

On a scale of one to ten Newtek rates a big 0.0001 and does not even show up on the radar of who is taking advantage of us.

I would gladly pay the little fee to keep them alive.

Stevets

StOuen
02-05-2009, 01:21 AM
It's the end of the road for me and Newtek.

Bye.

DuneBoy
02-05-2009, 01:28 AM
Oh, and another thing, how do an plug-in developers feel about core?

I can say I'm none too pleased. If I understand correctly, any developer that will use the Qt Toolkit for their plugins' interface will have to pay a license fee to Qt Software (http://www.qtsoftware.com/products/appdev/licensing). Or has to release the plugin as open source under the GPL.

How much is a license? From this thread (http://www.qtforum.org/article/24612/How-much-Qt-commercial-license-cost.html) I found this image (http://www.qtforum.org/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=1666&h=10353840988b52a330b84c33c959322a6719dcc3&28d90699).

Hopefully I've misread something somewhere.

Derrick_SA
02-05-2009, 01:33 AM
Guys, maybe I can't read, or understand what I read, but I see no subscription option anywhere here with newtek.

the offer is for a MEMBERSHIP (not subscription), you can choose if you want to become a member, and receive a few benefits, OR you can choose not to be a member, and when Core is released buy it at it's normal price, again it's your choice.

Nothing is forcing you to hand over cash every year,

Core looks really promising, but I'm still newbie (in 3D) with v9.5, so I'll probably not choose to be a member since I'm still learning v9, and have a lot of training material to work through. So if my curousity doesn't take over I'll probably hang on with the membership, even though it seems a very fair deal.

It also motivates me to really get up to speed with 9.5 by Q4.

IMO Good Job Newtek, I'm glad I chose your platform to learn 3D!

- Derrick

archijam
02-05-2009, 02:02 AM
After 2 weeks of wild fantasy and speculation, it seems it's a hard habit to kick ;)

StOuen - Ciao!

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:03 AM
Looking at the broader perspective....at a cost of ~$1.00 per day you can fund your CORE program. Not much of a burden.

Starbucks wants $4 bucks for a cup of coffee/day.

oh come on... let's not do this.

if you want a broader perspective, for a dollar a day, you can feed,immunize and send 3 children to school by giving to christian children's fund. that's a bit broader.

as for $4 a day for coffee... seriously. who does that?!

i keep hearing people do that on the news. wtf?

jin

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:06 AM
Nothing is forcing you to hand over cash every year

that's where it's not clear for you.

it IS every year. whether it is FORCED is the issue at hand.

nevermind all this stuff about membership... this is the thing that's throwing a wrench in the works....

despite the membership, their current plan is to have a PAID UPGRADE EVERY YEAR. and if you are not allowed to skip, that effectively makes it a subscription.

so the question is whether we are allowed to skip.

jin

Fadlabi
02-05-2009, 02:06 AM
Hi, I have LightWave v9
I am asking what is the difference between HardCORE™ membership (US$395) and HardCORE™ annual memberships (US$495)

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:09 AM
You may just want to see what you're going to get for $395 before you f that.

as i say on the other core thread, after finally getting to watch the video, it looks GOOD. it looks like something i can believe in. it looks like something i would and could support.

but still, a yearly mandatory lock in is a deal breaker. no matter how good.

lock in? f that regardless and irrespective.

jin

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:10 AM
Hi, I have LightWave v9
I am asking what is the difference between HardCORE™ membership (US$395) and HardCORE™ annual memberships (US$495)

$395 is a SPECIAL - a sale buy in price good until march. it's an early bird special. for subsequent upgrades, the price is $495.

jin

zapper1998
02-05-2009, 02:12 AM
How About a 30 day demo before we buy...

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:14 AM
How About a 30 day demo before we buy...

for this first one, that wouldn't be an unreasonable request.

meatycheesyboy
02-05-2009, 02:15 AM
their current plan is to have a PAID UPGRADE EVERY YEAR.

Unless I haven't seen something, we don't actually know what their current plan is. Until NT gets more specific (which I wish they would have done in the first place) this is all just conjecture. For all we know their plan may be to release a paid upgrade every 2 years and hope they can sucker people into paying for 2 memberships (or subscriptions if you'd like) for each upgrade.

So for now, I think the most prudent course of action is to wait and see what they say in the coming days.

Wow, I used the word 'conjecture' and the phrase 'prudent course of action', I think those or things Jean Luc Picard might have said alot in TNG... Good thing I've already found a wife that accepts my extreme dorkiness.

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:18 AM
Unless I haven't seen something, we don't actually know what their current plan is.

actually i'm not conjecturing that. i saw in one of the posts (or maybe even the video, i forget) chuck or someone else say something to that effect. it's pretty ludicrously specific for conjecture!

jin

Dexter2999
02-05-2009, 02:20 AM
30 day demo of a Beta?

Guys I already said this in another thread. This is just a pre-sale. The icing on the cake is you can participate in Beta if you want to, you save money with your pre-order, and you get a T-shirt.

You don't want the T-shirt? Don't wear it. You don't want to be in the Beta? Don't install it. But if you pay now, you save on the Winter release date. Or you can wait and see if it is worth it...then pay more for that reassurance (and possibly get that 30 day free trial)

Beyond this, I will have to see what these annual fees will be and if the upgrade is mandatory or not.

Somewhat off topic... In the current economic climate, do you think NT would be better off seeking an infusion of cash by promoting sales of a more moderately priced product like LightWave or 3D Arsenal over a higher ticket item like a TriCaster? Or do you think because of the downturn more than ever people will look at a $12,000 switching solution over more expensive options? (By the way, portability is not that big of a deal with TriCaster...have you seen the Sony Anycast? And I have seen several TriCaster users clammoring for rackmount units. Just get a VT already people!)

meatycheesyboy
02-05-2009, 02:22 AM
actually i'm not conjecturing that. i saw in one of the posts (or maybe even the video, i forget) chuck or someone else say something to that effect. it's pretty ludicrously specific for conjecture!

jin

If you say you saw it, I believe you but I also saw a post from Chuck earlier today that started with the words, "I presume..." in regards to a question about the membership plans as though he didn't actually know what the current idea regarding the memberships was (that actually scared the hell out of me).

So until I see something on the website and not buried in a forum post, I am going to act like I haven't seen anything. Hopefully all this will get sorted out before the weekend.

Fadlabi
02-05-2009, 02:26 AM
$395 is a SPECIAL - a sale buy in price good until march. it's an early bird special. for subsequent upgrades, the price is $495.

jin

Thankx jin for explanations.

trick
02-05-2009, 02:29 AM
Generally I don't have a problem with subscriptions. I'm under subscription with Max and you get enough benefits to justify it's cost. Certainly when you look at the base price and the normal upgrade cost.

I also use FormZ which has the family plan. It's quite different there since upgrade price and subscription price are not that different and they currently are not that fast offering substantial upgrades. Especially now that the same developers are working hard on releasing a beta for Bonzai3D.

Both however have a proven history of how they offer regular stable (more or less) releases and upgrades, so you know what to expect.

Looking at LW's history I see currently no reason of joining a subscription program when there actually is NO program. You are (again) joining a beta program and it is not clear on what you can expect from the final version and when this final verion will arrive. Professionaly I'm only interested in using a stable full-featured program and am not prepared to pay some years of subscription before this version will arrive. It has taken a long time to get to 9.6 (and I'm still not using it because there are irregularities with some plugins), so why should it be any different with a completely new program, where there is no real user experience.

Give me full-featured stable software, which is 100% compatible with all the tools and plugins I need, and I buy/upgrade...and after some time I know/see if I subscribe !!

stevets
02-05-2009, 02:35 AM
oh come on... let's not do this.

if you want a broader perspective, for a dollar a day, you can feed,immunize and send 3 children to school by giving to christian children's fund. that's a bit broader.

as for $4 a day for coffee... seriously. who does that?!

i keep hearing people do that on the news. wtf?

jin

Well you can play with words...but a $1.00 a day is not too much to ask a customer to pay. Newtek has put the future of their company in the hands of their loyal customers. With full access to tools to build LW into what all or any of you have dreamed of.
See you on hardCORE Jin....I know you cannot resist. :)

Stevets

Dexter2999
02-05-2009, 02:46 AM
... what I dont understand from the marketing: "why should I go for the new "Core" ?

...there is nothing special, maybe behind this new marketing of newtek is working Autodesk? maybe they are owner of Newtek now and they have a new idea how they can catch all the lightwave-user... just showing us a interface with no special improvements from what they already have developed...

Dude, what video did you watch?
The interface is skinnable.
The menus customizable.
The menus can be moved and docked where you like.
There is a history stack.
The interface combines Layout and Modeller in a way so they don't alienate people who have spent years learning where everything is. You can keep it in a separate mode or you can use the new combined mode.

Do you use a Mac? Because if you did you would want CORE because any plug ins would work with your system. No more having to wait a year for a port (or maybe never get one at all).

Run a render farm? Linux!! You could save thousands by not buying MS software for your farm.

This is a very big deal and you can pay $395 basically as a pre-order, get to participate in the Beta, and get a T-shirt.

What? Were you looking for icons or some MAJORITY REPORT looking interface?

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:57 AM
The interface is skinnable.


oh yeah, forgot about that... and USER SKINNABLE! YES!!! we have a shader repository, get ready for the SKIN REPOSITORY!

pipboy 3000, here we come!

jin

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:58 AM
See you on hardCORE Jin....I know you cannot resist. :)

lol... well if it's a subscription, i guarantee you won't see me there.

but i hope it's not subscription.

and if it's not, i will be there with bells on. it looks good.

jin

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 03:05 AM
I also have some questions. I have licenses of Modo and LW. And I love both. But instead of switching to annual subscriptions I have the choice to stick to LW9.6 and Modo. So my most important question is:

Will LW Core be better than a combination of LW9.6 and Modo?

I am not talking about the interface, I am mainly talking about workflow, features and the jobs I have to do.

If LW Core beats all the other 3d apps into the dust then I even have no problems to pay a subscription every year. But I need some features.

My second question is:
Does anybody from Newtek read this forum thread anyway?

StereoMike
02-05-2009, 03:06 AM
from the FAQ:
What do I get as a member of HardCORE™ ?
· Shipping version of the LightWave CORE™ software scheduled for Q4 release


So for 395/later 495 $ you get all official releases. If you aren't on subscription you pay 695$.
Thought about these numbers?
If it's a lock-in model, these numbers should be the same, if NT plans a new upgrade every year anyway (why pay 200$ less for more goodies on the hardcore program)?
My assumption is, that you pay 200$ more and don't need to upgrade every year (for that you'd take hardcore).
Makes sense, right?

I don't think jumping to conclusions is good for your heart, Jin. Just wait what NT says to all this. I bet you have enough time for getting upset after actually something worth a stroke happens.
For LW users this whole subscription thing is new and we don't know what to think about it. But for NT it makes things much more foreseeable, and they know how much money they can invest in development. And the rest of the world knows these payment models as well. 495$ is not bad for an app with that scope (really, if they deliver what they promised, LW could easily slip into any pipeline, and phyton programmers will feel at home quite fast, devs will have a platform with a full access sdk which promises great things once this thing get rolling). After all, I voted for a price increase, so I'm totally OK with it if I get the hottest piece of software for that.

I think the presentation was an epic fail, but the product is everything we dreamed of.

http://www.flameframe.com/webs/deram.jpg

mike

jin choung
02-05-2009, 03:14 AM
I don't think jumping to conclusions is good for your heart, Jin. Just wait what NT says to all this. I bet you have enough time for getting upset after actually something worth a stroke happens.

actually, i won't get upset at all. i was upset that they wasted my time and made seeing the video impossible. if they make it a subscription lock in, i won't get upset. i'm just out. it's their product, they can do whatever they want.

but i just really really really hope that they do the smart thing after reading all this and tomorrow morning, put out a little statement saying that a big CLEAR PRICING PAGE is in the works. and then they spend a day or two and make a CLEAR CLEAR CLEAR CLEAR pricing page with no ambiguity and no gotchas. just clarity.

they would be doing themselves the biggest favor in the world if they make a page so that ANYONE who has a question or is confused could just go to that page and have their question answered.

otherwise it's going to be VERY VERY CHAOTIC for a VERY VERY LONG TIME. and once again, NEEDLESSLY so....

jin

Stewdent101
02-05-2009, 03:15 AM
Lightwave Core is stated as being GPU aware what does that actually mean ?
would i gain any benefit from owning an SLI or X-fire rig ?

parm
02-05-2009, 03:16 AM
no... they are scheduling a paid upgrade EVERY YEAR now.

and if upgrading is NOT OPTIONAL, then it is exactly the same as autodesk. everything else is semantics. the KEY POINT is "ANNUAL PAID UPGRADE".

so if i upgrade to 10 and then can't skip 11 and 12 and then upgrade to 13, it's a LOCK IN program.

f that.

jin

Personally. I'm reserving my most extreme skepticism regarding yearly upgrades. Even for LW 10 meeting a Q4 2009 release target. That said, what's been shown so far looks very good. Would have liked to see more, given the 14 day build up. like what's been done about LW's rather poor, high polygon handling capability in the modelling depatment.

As far as the Upgrade/Membership stuff goes. The way it looks to me, is that the upgrade to LW 10 Q4 2009 will cost $695.

If you choose 'hardcore' membership it's $695 + $395($495 from 04/09) - $ discount (I saw $200 bandied around somewhere) = $890/$990.

As indicated earlier X.x upgrades are no longer free. Presumably they are included as part of membership to 'hardcore'. Hopefully X.x.x upgrades i.e bugfixes are still free, under, 'fit for purpose' and all that.

If the point upgrades are as substantial as the 9.x series has been. The Tutorials and other benefits make membership a very worthwhile prospect. And I hope all the people who were begging to give Newtek more money, jump on it.

I agree wholeheartedly. That any hint of a subscription model, or lock-in. Is anathema and amounts to money grubbing of the worst kind. But I don't see anything to suggest that here. I hope I'm not wrong.

jin choung
02-05-2009, 03:27 AM
Lightwave Core is stated as being GPU aware what does that actually mean ?
would i gain any benefit from owning an SLI or X-fire rig ?

modern graphics cards no longer host extremely FIXED FUNCTION processors. the "gpus" are very general purpose now. meaning they can be used for computing tasks not strictly related to drawing polygons to the screen. so that with modern games, they're leveraging some of the graphics card horsepower to accelerate physics calculations.

so what i'm taking from the "gpu" shout out is that any time it's worthwhile to throw a task to a highly parallel processing cpu like on the graphics card, it will throw it onto the card.

and if they're making multi-thread a priority, than the more fast gpus you have, the more processors lwcore will have at its disposal.

i think.

jin

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 03:27 AM
Another pricing question:

If I right now jump on and pay 395 then I get the Q4 release for free. But what happens in 2010? Is there another annual fee of 495? So I pay about 900 in 2 years.

But when I wait for 2010 then I get a finished app for an upgrade of "only" 695. I save money then compared to a 2 years subscription.

Is this right?

inquisitive
02-05-2009, 03:32 AM
I dont know about browsing from within the UI of LWCore.

Is that their own browser engine? are they going to keep up with virus defense? cross side scripting or what have you?

Nowdays a site may crash my browser, do I want some site to crash my LWCore UI and with it whatever I may happen to be working with?

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 03:34 AM
Exclusive access to ongoing builds of LightWave CORE™
Special pricing
Shipping version of the LightWave CORE™ software scheduled for Q4 release
Continued updates to LightWave v9
First to receive the COCOA version of LightWave
Private community area with forums for interaction with one another and the LightWave CORE™ development team
Exclusive development presentations and updates
LightWave CORE™ training videos
VIP invitations to special events
Personalized membership card
Exclusive LightWave CORE™ t-shirt



My first thought was, as others have said, that we are now paying for being a beta tester.... but on further thought we do get the shipping version of CORE for the $395 in Q4 09 along with all beta versions up to it, Special Pricing -- whatever that is, training!!, the opportunity to influence and a t-shirt!

We always wanted a t-shirt for the beta testing and now we get the next shipping version too with a discount.

Sounds pretty good to me, I now think I am being paid, a little, for the beta testing since the new upgrade price will be $695!

Bottom line CORE MUST do much more then LW9.6 in Q4 for this to be of true value. I did think the CORE video was a bit thin on the demo... I am a programmer and love the technical side of where CORE has gone, it will make LW much more extensible.... I just know we are going to give something up to get there though. I would guess that all current Plugins and LScripts will stop working, thats bad, anyone hear any different?!! But all future Plugins and Scripts will be cross platform with, at most, a re-compile on the same code. It wont be easy for current Plugin designers to re-write them for the new SDK since it will be so different.... steep learning curve to go to C++ and CORE Framework if you have been coding C all your life.

Skonk
02-05-2009, 03:35 AM
I dont know about browsing from within the UI of LWCore.

Is that their own browser engine? are they going to keep up with virus defense? cross side scripting or what have you?

Nowdays a site may crash my browser, do I want some site to crash my LWCore UI and with it whatever I may happen to be working with?

It'l just be the internet explorer control that you can embed into ather programs, it wont pose any real threat to software its embedded into.

geo_n
02-05-2009, 03:38 AM
The pricing, subscription, upgrade is confusing. Lw is a personal license for my freelance work. Our company and some companies I know in tokyo haven't upgraded from lw 8. Same for freelancers that work for us. I don't think a subscription scheme would convince japanese to upgrade even more. We're already paying for 3dsmax and maya subscription yearly. Why did newtek follow the same route? Financial trouble?
With very little job openings for lightwavers in tokyo I'm seriously thinking of staying with lw 9.6.
What do I get for 395US? Will I be paying only 695US again on Q4 after its release.

A Mejias
02-05-2009, 03:42 AM
Personally. I'm reserving my most extreme skepticism regarding yearly upgrades. Even for LW 10 meeting a Q4 2009 release target. That said, what's been shown so far looks very good. Would have liked to see more, given the 14 day build up. like what's been done about LW's rather poor, high polygon handling capability in the modelling depatment.

As far as the Upgrade/Membership stuff goes. The way it looks to me, is that the upgrade to LW 10 Q4 2009 will cost $695.

If you choose 'hardcore' membership it's $695 + $395($495 from 04/09) - $ discount (I saw $200 bandied around somewhere) = $890/$990.

As indicated earlier X.x upgrades are no longer free. Presumably they are included as part of membership to 'hardcore'. Hopefully X.x.x upgrades i.e bugfixes are still free, under, 'fit for purpose' and all that.

If the point upgrades are as substantial as the 9.x series has been. The Tutorials and other benefits make membership a very worthwhile prospect. And I hope all the people who were begging to give Newtek more money, jump on it.

I agree wholeheartedly. That any hint of a subscription model, or lock-in. Is anathema and amounts to money grubbing of the worst kind. But I don't see anything to suggest that here. I hope I'm not wrong.

That is not correct.

As Chuck explained in another thead, LightWave Core upgrade for 9.x owners will cost $395 from now till 03/31/09, then it will cost $495 untill LWC final is released. After the release it will cost $695. This is for the upgrade from LW 9.x

As for the subscription, there is no subscription, But the pricing for "upgrades" after 2009 are still undecided.

parm
02-05-2009, 03:54 AM
That is not correct.

As Chuck explained in another thead, LightWave Core upgrade for 9.x owners will cost $395 from now till 03/31/09, then it will cost $495 untill LWC final is released. After the release it will cost $695. This is for the upgrade from LW 9.x

As for the subscription, there is no subscription, But the pricing for "upgrades" after 2009 are still undecided.

If that's true. Than it's bargain city and jumping on board ASAP is a no-brainer.

But are you sure? And what happens if in the, (admittedly unlikely), event. That LW10 isn't ready to ship until, say, Q2 2110?
I mean, do you then lose the benefit of getting the fully shipping product, unless you renew membership. You see what I'm getting at. Renewing membership is potentially interminable. Does therefore amount to subscription.

StereoMike
02-05-2009, 03:55 AM
Another pricing question:

If I right now jump on and pay 395 then I get the Q4 release for free. But what happens in 2010? Is there another annual fee of 495? So I pay about 900 in 2 years.

But when I wait for 2010 then I get a finished app for an upgrade of "only" 695. I save money then compared to a 2 years subscription.

Is this right?

That's how I understand it as well. Anything else wouldn't make sense. Either annual payment or you choose the moment of upgrading with 200$ more compared to subscription fee.


The pricing, subscription, upgrade is confusing. Lw is a personal license for my freelance work. Our company and some companies I know in tokyo haven't upgraded from lw 8. Same for freelancers that work for us. I don't think a subscription scheme would convince japanese to upgrade even more. We're already paying for 3dsmax and maya subscription yearly. Why did newtek follow the same route? Financial trouble?
With very little job openings for lightwavers in tokyo I'm seriously thinking of staying with lw 9.6.
What do I get for 395US? Will I be paying only 695US again on Q4 after its release.

If these companies/freelancers haven't upgraded since 8, the new pricing model doesn't do any harm in that regard. These people didn't buy in the past, so NT won't lose money. But if these ppl see that Core is able to smoke the competition and integrates easily, they will pay that little money.
You know what they said about XSI policy? They know they weren't able to beat Max or Maya, so they build XSI to act well within that pipelines to make XSI a complement not a competitor.
LW goes the same route, but at a new level. Basically it picks up all these guys (phyton coders, animators, modelers, riggers) luring them with nice price (compared to AD), easy learing curve, adapted GUI (to fit their taste), great renderer and full access sdk and voilá makes enough revenue to give NT a living. They don't need to kill Max or Maya, if they simply add a seat of LW to Max or Maya, that will be enough to be happy and celebrate Core.

mike

@Parm: Harcore includes the release version. It's stated on the core faq (http://www.newtek.com/core/faq.php)

A Mejias
02-05-2009, 03:56 AM
If that's true. Than it's bargain city and jumping on board ASAP is a no-brainer.

But are you sure? And what happens if in the, (admittedly unlikely), event. That LW10 isn't ready to ship until, say, Q2 2110?

It does not matter when LWC ships you will get it at whatever price you've pay for it. So if it's late you still get it. And it probably will be ;)

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 03:59 AM
You bet its a no-brainer! You get the release version of LWCORE for $395 plus all the HARDCORE goodies! If you don't join HARDCORE you will pay $695 for LWCORE Upgrade in Q4 and no goodies!

A Mejias
02-05-2009, 04:01 AM
Everyone, please read this post from Chuck here!

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=824213&postcount=7321

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 04:11 AM
I don't think this will be much different then what NT is currently doing. Up to now you got an upgrade to LW for $495 now it will be $695, but now there is an advantage to being a beta tester since we will get a discount on the upgrade price this year for $395 and years following for $495 plus the HARDCORE goodies.

StOuen
02-05-2009, 04:19 AM
please correct me if I am wrong but is the bottom line that NT are moving to a annual license model like autodesk? Or if you want to skip a years upgrades you still can use your software?

I am confused.com

Skonk
02-05-2009, 04:23 AM
please correct me if I am wrong but is the bottom line that NT are moving to a annual license model like autodesk? Or if you want to skip a years upgrades you still can use your software?

I am confused.com

Yeh this needs clarifying.

I think you can either just buy the app outright, or subscribe to get other benefits and slightly cheaper cost on future updates so you save money in the long run (but newtek bring in money earlier to help fund development).

StOuen
02-05-2009, 04:31 AM
Yeh this needs clarifying.

I think you can either just buy the app outright, or subscribe to get other benefits and slightly cheaper cost on future updates so you save money in the long run (but newtek bring in money earlier to help fund development).

Ah Ok. Thanks.

If that IS the case then that is cool. There is a lot of people in the business that has to take time out to do other things to get the spondulaks rolling in while times are hard whilst keeping their hand in with the software. A rolloing licence that would have to be maintained to keep the cost down could be a kick in the nuts in hard times.

parm
02-05-2009, 04:35 AM
@Parm: Harcore includes the release version

I believe you, but the 'JOIN NOW' button won't work.

Skonk
02-05-2009, 04:36 AM
Ah Ok. Thanks.

If that IS the case then that is cool. There is a lot of people in the business that has to take time out to do other things to get the spondulaks rolling in while times are hard whilst keeping their hand in with the software. A rolloing licence that would have to be maintained to keep the cost down could be a kick in the nuts in hard times.

If they did that I'd not be able to keep the 40+ licenses going that I maintain for the college I work for, we'd have to switch to another software.

The college cant afford to upgrade every year, it's generally every 3 to 4.

But if a 1 off fee gave us core + 12 months of updates then I could renew it every 2 years most likely, assuming the educational discount.

The free updates was a major reason why we bought lightwave though, since we simply cant afford to pay out for regular updates. Lightwave 9 (we bought 8 with the free upgrade to 9) has been a great investment and we'v had a good few years of use out of it.

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 04:40 AM
I don't think this will be much different then what NT is currently doing. Up to now you got an upgrade to LW for $495 now it will be $695, but now there is an advantage to being a beta tester since we will get a discount on the upgrade price this year for $395 and years following for $495 plus the HARDCORE goodies.

No. This is not so sure. Look here, what they wrote at the Core-FAQ page (watch the phrase "annual membership" or "one year membership" close to every price mentioned there):

...v9 owners gain HardCORE™ membership for US$395 (Charter Member price) through March 31, 2009, beginning April 1, HardCORE™ annual memberships for LightWave v9 owners will increase to US$495.

LightWave owners using any previous version of LightWave may upgrade to LightWave v9 US$495 and receive a one year membership to HardCORE™ .

Companion Upgrades to LightWave v9 will only be available through March 31, 2009 at a cost of US$595 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ .

New LightWave v9 purchases are available for US$895 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ .


This looks to me very much to annual memberships, to a price every year.
Or do I get this wrong as a non-native speaker?

Skonk
02-05-2009, 04:43 AM
No. This is not so sure. Look here, what they wrote at the Core-FAQ page:

...v9 owners gain HardCORE™ membership for US$395 (Charter Member price) through March 31, 2009, beginning April 1, HardCORE™ annual memberships for LightWave v9 owners will increase to US$495.

LightWave owners using any previous version of LightWave may upgrade to LightWave v9 US$495 and receive a one year membership to HardCORE™ .

Companion Upgrades to LightWave v9 will only be available through March 31, 2009 at a cost of US$595 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ .

New LightWave v9 purchases are available for US$895 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ .


This looks to me very much to annual memberships, to a price every year or do I get this wrong?

I think the anual membership just gets you updates which add new features and would otherwise be paid upgrades, plus access to VIP area on forum etc.. so you have more direct contact with the developers.

I assume bug fixes will be availible for all regardless.

So if you just buy CORE and dont subscribe, you would get free bug fixes (as ud expect) but have to pay for feature updates?

It needs official clarification really.

StereoMike
02-05-2009, 04:47 AM
But if a 1 off fee gave us core + 12 months of updates then I could renew it every 2 years most likely, assuming the educational discount.

Interesting question. Can we buy a hardcore year every n years?
I thought there are two models: without subscription 695$ - but you can skip upgrades, or with subscription and with an annual cost of 495$.

But won't they shoot themselves in the foot if they allowed an upgrade via hardcore (495$) after 3 years of dormant license, when they clearly state that upgrades cost you 695$ ?
I guess they will charge 200$ to get your dormant hardcore program up to date and then you pay 495 for the next year of hardcore.

Just guessing.

mike

bkmvlswe
02-05-2009, 04:49 AM
Well as a current user of lw 9.6, shelling out $395 is one thing but then paying $495 anually is not entirely doable, after all i take this out of my own pocket, now of course if the hardcore thing is bit like microsofts msdn where free upgrades to visual studio is included it might be okey, still a fairly high cost for a hobby.

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 04:51 AM
Why guessing? There is a FAQ and it clearly tells about "annual memberships". This is public. The open questions are whether we have to update every year and what happens with the license if we do not renew the membership in a certain year.

cresshead
02-05-2009, 04:56 AM
@GraphX
Yeah i guess, only problem is withought subscription no bug fixes or point updates.. stuck :(
well that's pretty much the same with autodesk products and how xsi worked without a maintenance plan or when xsi foundation was around befoe autodesk bought it from avid.

you have to remember newtek have made NO MONEY at all from users who got free update frm 8.0 to 9.0 and nothing from new users of lw9 in the last 2 years

their a business and one that's going to new places..they'll need feeding on the way!

StOuen
02-05-2009, 04:58 AM
Why guessing? There is a FAQ and it clearly tells about "annual memberships". This is public. The open questions are whether we have to update every year and what happens with the license if we do not renew the membership in a certain year.

Yes! That is indeed the question.

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 04:58 AM
No. This is not so sure. Look here, what they wrote at the Core-FAQ page:

...v9 owners gain HardCORE™ membership for US$395 (Charter Member price) through March 31, 2009, beginning April 1, HardCORE™ annual memberships for LightWave v9 owners will increase to US$495.

LightWave owners using any previous version of LightWave may upgrade to LightWave v9 US$495 and receive a one year membership to HardCORE™ .

Companion Upgrades to LightWave v9 will only be available through March 31, 2009 at a cost of US$595 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ .

New LightWave v9 purchases are available for US$895 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™ .


This looks to me very much to annual memberships, to a price every year or do I get this wrong?

For anyone who buys LW9 now they get it and HARDCORE for $495, so NT is saying if you are a current owner of LW9 you can get special Charter Membership in HARDCORE for $395 to cover existing LW9 users, this includes a upgrade to the release version of CORE in Q4.

Seems like folks are mixing LW pricing and HARDCORE together. HARDCORE is just a Fancy Beta Club. If you don't want to be a beta tester just buy the upgrades when ever you want one, for the new upgrade price of $695. I think they are just committing to major upgrades every year... but you don't have to buy it if you don't want it. No annual fee. I don't think this is a required upgrade to continue using LW... that is not what the pricing says... $1495 for new LW users and $695 for upgrades.

If you want to be a beta tester then you pay $395 (or $495 4/09 and after) and you get the release version of LW when it comes out... at a $300 discount!

And I would bet the point releases would be free too as they are now.

Skonk
02-05-2009, 04:58 AM
Why guessing? There is a FAQ and it clearly tells about "annual memberships". This is public. The open questions are whether we have to update every year and what happens with the license if we do not renew the membership in a certain year.

Whats not clear is if you have to pay out for the anual membership AND buy new version of CORE as they are released (major releases i mean), Or if you keep your hardcore subscription running are you always entitled to the latest version of CORE?

Microsoft do a Campus Licenses (which we use here at the college). We pay around Ł25k a year to keep this subscription up but it entitles us to the latest versions of most of microsofts products as soon as they come out.

cresshead
02-05-2009, 04:59 AM
Q. about multi seat ligtwave

i have 2 seats of lightwave 9, does being a 'lightwave hardcore member' mean i'll be able to run both seats of lightwave core for the 1 member fee of $395?

Skonk
02-05-2009, 04:59 AM
For anyone who buys LW9 now they get it and HARDCORE for $495, so NT is saying if you are a current owner of LW9 you can get special Charter Membership in HARDCORE for $395 to cover existing LW9 users, this includes a upgrade to the release version of CORE in Q4.

Seems like folks are mixing LW pricing and HARDCORE together. HARDCORE is just a Fancy Beta Club. If you don't want to be a beta tester just buy the upgrades when ever you want one, for the new upgrade price of $695. I think they are just commiting to major upgrades every year... but you don't have to buy it if you don't want it. No annual fee. I don't think this a required upgrade to continue using LW... that is not what the pricing says... $1495 for new LW users and $695 for upgrades.

If you want to be a beta tester then you pay $395 (or $495 4/09 and after) and you get the release version of LW when it comes out... at a $300 discount!

And I would bet the point releases would be free too as they are now.


If thats the case then people saying "pay to be a beta tester!!!" are actually totally wrong, in effect Newtek would be paying YOU to be a beta tester because you get the final release for $300 less.

artstorm
02-05-2009, 05:01 AM
Personally I'm not bothered with the Membership option at all. I make a living using LightWave so I don't really think that's much of a cost to consider. And not to forget that it's optional. The only bother I have with the membership is the indication of further 9 updates. I really would like 9.6 to be the last iteration of the old codebase and that they put all their focus and efforts in getting core up and running.

I get a feeling that the membership discussion takes over from the real goodies, that we're finally getting a brand new platform for LightWave. We've wanted that for years, opened up for integration and full of possibilities and NewTek certainly seems to go exactly that way.
The glimpses we've got so far have really got me intrigued, having used LW since 3.5 I don't think I've ever been this excited for a new LightWave release as I am this time.

I think that the current development team proved themselves more and beyond with what they achieved during the 9.x cycle. And they did that with the old codebase with a legacy going back to the Amiga days, originally coded by someone else, giving limitations of what they could do with it.

I can only imagine what they will be able to accomplish with a complete fresh start with a new platform they have designed themselves according to their needs what they want to be able to do with LightWave. The future for LightWave seems really bright right now. I am really looking forward to see more Core videos to really get a feel of where we are heading with this next generation LightWave.

So NewTek, Core me! Please. :)

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 05:15 AM
OK, I think I finally understood. The annual fee is just a maintenance fee, a fee to get minor releases. You could also live without it and pay only for the major upgrades. So why dont call it that way, why the confusing term "hardCore membership"?

And if this is true we get the membership and a discount for the upgrade, 2 in 1 for 395. This sounds much more like a good deal to me.

ben martin
02-05-2009, 05:17 AM
Ok, then, what we have so far is this:

Chuck says: "Plans are for a major, paid release each year."

If this paid release is mandatory (not able to skip), then what we are really talking about is: "Year Subscriptions policy" (call things by the right names, will you?).
You know, we all are thru being deceived by people explaining bad deals with pleasant presentations and cool-in-the-mood names!

We already suck-up several years of economic crap and strategies (that inevitably lead to his world economic crisis) and by now we all can spot a trap when we see it... even if its wrapped in good presentations calling it a bargain and gold over blue.
Newtek, you should know better!

I even can't understand this silly new policy.
Lets assume that indeed we all have MONEY, MONEY, MONEY to dump and cope with this Newtek sh*t CORE year subscription.

Ok, if I understood it correctly, the plan says:
1. Every Year (at Q1) a beta will be released
2. The final release will be delivered near the Q4 (end of that year).
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...postcount=7321

Ok, who is going to explain me why should I pay to use a stable version only for a couple of months each year (end of the year quarter) if the new version beta is right there to be released and the crap start all over again? How can any serious workflow relay on constant beta releases for an almost full year, every year?

If this is going to be the case… it won't work for me.
I already have enough subscription in my life.
I can very well use Blender to do all my scenes work and render all using Vue 7 render engine.
I join Jin on this one… Core, f* you! NT bye!

Let's wait for NT clarifications over this!

mac
02-05-2009, 05:20 AM
... oh the horror :devil:

trick
02-05-2009, 05:20 AM
If thats the case then people saying "pay to be a beta tester!!!" are actually totally wrong, in effect Newtek would be paying YOU to be a beta tester because you get the final release for $300 less.

This is in so far not true, that when you get the release you are about to pay $495 for the next subscription year, while users upgrading for $695 have a full year of membership from then on. I don't use beta's and I want to know what exactly I get, so I don't have a problem paying $695 when the time is right !

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 05:20 AM
No, dont get upset, read my last post. I think now that we can also live without this subscription.

*Pete*
02-05-2009, 05:23 AM
my guess is that the 395/495 is what gives you access to the beta core for a year (subscription) and the full version of core/lw10.

The 695/1495 upgrade/new customer price is for the full version only.

It makes sence, and is a win win for everyone.
Beta testers (hardcorers) pay for the developement of core, and as a return they get core cheaper.

I believe all that changed is that nt is making sure it has the money to keep developing lw under eventually long periods of beta testing.

trick
02-05-2009, 05:28 AM
...Ok, who is going to explain me why should I pay to use a stable version only for a couple of months each year (end of the year quarter) if the new version beta is right there to be released and the crap start all over again? How can any serious workflow relay on constant beta releases for an almost full year, every year?...

If you just ignore the beta, and there was indeed an official stable upgrade each year and some goodies inbetween, I would have absolutely no problem with subscription. But this is something I would only believe after I've seen it. And that is still far from reality...I just can't believe people would pay now just for the few $$$ they save and for beta-testing :stumped:

archijam
02-05-2009, 05:31 AM
Let's all ask questions, answer them ourselves, and then get angry at our own answers!

...

It's barely 12hrs since the announcement... ;D

cresshead
02-05-2009, 05:32 AM
Q on instancing.

is instancing a 2 way communication like that or 3dsmax instancing or is it like referencing in 3dsmax [only 1 way upstream]

see here>

if i make an instanced copy in 3dsmax i can select ANY object and edit it and all those edits propergate to everywhere else...i DO NOT need to select the 1st object that was then 'instanced' for example...this is 2 way communication

looking at the newtek video it 'appears to add a transform node'...so will that make a referenced copy instead...which means any edits to a copy DO NOT propergate BACKWARDS to every other object and i'd NEED to select the Initial object for edits which will then propergate thru...this is caled referencing in 3dsmax for example and is a 1 way communication stream...from the origional object outwards to all the copies.

also will there be a way to make an instanced object 'unique' and break the instacing node if we want to.

a example video would help clear this up!

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 05:35 AM
Again, look at the FAQ:

Companion Upgrades to LightWave v9 will only be available through March 31, 2009 at a cost of US$595 and come with a one year membership to HardCORE™.

Did you realize the phrase "...and come with a one year...".
It looks to me you get the upgrade PLUS a membership. This membership brings additional advantages. But you can also leave it later on if it produces additional costs. But in any case you have to buy a major upgrade if available. This membership though could give you a price advantage.

But still this membership is some kind of optional maintenance fee, some club membership.

TimothyB
02-05-2009, 05:39 AM
I really hope this is cleared up in the morning.

What happens when Q4 comes along and you have the $695 upgrade price and a Hardcore membership at $495, side by side, both get you the upgrade. So why would anyone pay $695?

The question is, what's the catch?

Once LW10 Core is released, things would get even more confusing like that. And wouldn't the hardcore benefits description need to be changed? After the release 10, and a 9.6 user buys the $495 membership, would they then instantly get 10 and also 10.5 or 11 within that year of membership? Or will the membership stop being offered to 9 users once 10 is officially released?

If say the membership will no longer be offered to 9 users once 10 is it out, then I'd assume they'd have to pay the full $695 upgrade price. Now that the 9 user becones a 10 user, they now have the option to get the $495 membership for betas past 10.0 and will get next version of LW. So say that $695 upgrade 10 user buys the $495 membership shortly after, and then they get betas and version 11 (a guess). Then with 11 they skip a membership. If say 12 comes out, then you have to pay the full upgrade price once more before you can ever do the hardcore membership again.

So I hope the only penalty of skipping a membership long enough for a new release to come out is just having to pay full upgrade price, $695, before you can ever join the hardcore membership again. So hopefully in the end this means you get to choose when you want to be a member as it suits you, but wait too long, you have to go the normal upgrade price before you can join again since you fell to far behind. This will help on a year you can't justify being in a beta or don't know if the next version is worth your time to prepay that early.

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 05:45 AM
After the release 10, and a 9.6 user buys the $495 membership...

Hm, if I understood it right, then there is no $495 membership. You get this membership additional (for free) to your $495 upgrade. The membership itself may have a different price.

Later it could be that a new customer buys the software for 1,495 and he/she can get the membership for another 395 per year just to get additional advantages. But you also can leave it.

Now it is free but this is only to catch you to be a member.

MSwengel
02-05-2009, 05:52 AM
This is from one of my threads:

Ok... I'll be blunt.

CORE looks interesting, but until I get a favorable answer to THIS question, NT and I aren't on good terms.

One of the stated "benefits" of HardCORE is getting updates to 9.x

Does this mean that those of us who can't afford HardCORE are now screwed out of bugfixes and updates? Are any future updates now reserved for the "elite" members???

If this is true, I must say I am VERY upset with NT. :2guns::vticon:
:cursin::lwicon::tsktsk:

geo_n
02-05-2009, 05:58 AM
If these companies/freelancers haven't upgraded since 8, the new pricing model doesn't do any harm in that regard. These people didn't buy in the past, so NT won't lose money. But if these ppl see that Core is able to smoke the competition and integrates easily, they will pay that little money.
You know what they said about XSI policy? They know they weren't able to beat Max or Maya, so they build XSI to act well within that pipelines to make XSI a complement not a competitor.
LW goes the same route, but at a new level. Basically it picks up all these guys (phyton coders, animators, modelers, riggers) luring them with nice price (compared to AD), easy learing curve, adapted GUI (to fit their taste), great renderer and full access sdk and voilá makes enough revenue to give NT a living. They don't need to kill Max or Maya, if they simply add a seat of LW to Max or Maya, that will be enough to be happy and celebrate Core.

mike


I hope newtek does become a complement not a comptetitor. I just don't see companies with their current pipeline of maya,max,xsi to just switch over to lightwave again especially with the economy here in japan.
If they bring in killer plugs like fumefx, vray, cebas final render, etc then the higher ups will probably take a look at lw again. As of now they're bugging me to put all my efforts into learning maya. But I can't afford it for my own projects so I keep lightwave. If paying annually for subscription this would kill lightwave freelancers in japan.

pumeco
02-05-2009, 05:59 AM
Dear NewTek.

What method do us later FiberFactory purchasers use to get our hands on a free Core when it's released? I recall NewTek said that LightWave 10 was going to be free to those who purchased the last FiberFactory version before it got made standard issue.

Do we email you our FiberFactory serial numbers or something like that?
There was no mention in the pricing.

My only concern with Core so far is that everything seems so uncertain about the ownership costs. I'll admit right here and now that if I have to be tied to a subscription - I'll have to drop LightWave because just like others here, I absolutely will not be part of such a system.

Don't worry, I'm not going to go off on a massive slag fest just because I won't be able to afford to keep up with it. If NewTek feel they need to do this to bring LightWave forward, then I wish them the best of luck - even though I won't be able to be part of it.

Anyway, I look forward to reading about all this stuff when NewTek get to clear-up the confusion.

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 06:10 AM
If thats the case then people saying "pay to be a beta tester!!!" are actually totally wrong, in effect Newtek would be paying YOU to be a beta tester because you get the final release for $300 less.

Yes! Cool isn't it and we get all the HARDCORE goodies! I just don't see how it can be read any other way... do you? :lightwave

Seems like a no-brainer to me!;D

pumeco
02-05-2009, 06:11 AM
I have just one other question :

Will LWCAD3 work with it on release?
I can't live without LWCAD in LightWave!

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 06:21 AM
Dear NewTek.

My only concern with Core so far is that everything seems so uncertain about the ownership costs. I'll admit right here and now that if I have to be tied to a subscription - I'll have to drop LightWave because just like others here, I absolutely will not be part of such a system.


Where do you get that the ownership cost is any different than it has been? They just increased the pricing, they did not say anything about annual licensing... HARDCORE is just a beta club, you don't need this to continue using LW, just buy the upgrade for the new $695 upgrade price. If you are willing to be a beta tester then you get a discount on the upgrade price for the next release of LW.

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 06:27 AM
I have just one other question :

Will LWCAD3 work with it on release?
I can't live without LWCAD in LightWave!

This is what I was commenting on in an earlier post... all current Plugins, I THINK, will stop working and will need a significant re-write! We will loose hundreds of LScripts and Plugins in this move... this needs a direct statement from NT, but I don't see how existing Plugins could work since the New CORE SDK would be totally different.

kojean
02-05-2009, 06:28 AM
...v9 owners gain HardCORE™ membership for US$395 (Charter Member price) through March 31, 2009, beginning April 1, HardCORE™ annual memberships for LightWave v9 owners will increase to US$495.

This looks to me very much to annual memberships, to a price every year.
Or do I get this wrong as a non-native speaker?
The problem with the wording of the FAQ, which is the same question I asked about pages ago and people are asking about over and over without a definitive official answer is:

WHAT is the "annual membership" price, if any, for OWNERS of CORE after one year (April 1, 2010)?

The FAQ only mentions the "annual membership for LightWave v9 owners".

I hope this question is officially answered and added to the FAQ within the next few days. I'm sure there are a lot of us who will hold off on any membership purchase decision until this is made clear.


Will Charter Hardcore members who jump on board before March 31 receive any continuing additional discount for updates beyond the standard non-Charter Hardcore members discount after the first year?


Since I do not earn any income from LightWave, I can say for certain that I will not be able to afford yearly fees of $495 (or more?) to download .x point version updates.

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 06:38 AM
The problem with the wording of the FAQ, which is the same question I asked about pages ago and people are asking about over and over without a definitive official answer is:

WHAT is the "annual membership" price, if any, for OWNERS of CORE after one year (April 1, 2010)?

The FAQ only mentions the "annual membership for LightWave v9 owners".


I think this is just saying that the HARDCORE membership is for 12 months... this is just the Beta Tester Club.... HARDCORE, NOT LW licensing.

I think some of the confusion is that LightWave CORE is the name of the next generation LW product and HARDCORE is the name of the Beta Tester Club. The HC membership is NOT necessary for using the next NT product called LW CORE.

pumeco
02-05-2009, 06:47 AM
@MacGregg

Thank's for the info, it's just I'm a bit unsure about all of this right now. I just found the videos on YouTube and I must say I think you're right, Hardcore is just a club, and Core itself is the new LightWave.

The pricing is too steep I think, at least for hobbyists. And I'm still curious to know how upgrades will work even if it's not a subscription. Like others I'm curious if skipping versions will break your entitlement to upgrade pricing. Anyway, I think they'll gain new ground with the new architecture, but at the same time they'll loose a lot of hobbyists that simply cannot afford such prices.

Being a hobbyist myself it's kinda sickening really because I bought LightWave after ditching Maxon because of their disgracefully unfair policy. In contrast, NewTek's new policy does not seem unfair, but it might as well be because it is unreal to many people in such a price bracket. I think a heck of a lot of folk will ditch LightWave and go for Carrara Pro and Blender because of this price hike.

They'll no doubt want to stick with LightWave, but will not be able to.

StOuen
02-05-2009, 06:51 AM
Trust CG Society to come up with the goods: http://features.cgsociety.org/story.php?story_id=4908

'LightWave CORE can be purchased the traditional way at the time of each final product release or by taking advantage of NewTek's new HardCORE membership program. '

I am happy now.

kojean
02-05-2009, 06:57 AM
I think this is just saying that the HARDCORE membership is for 12 months... this is just the Beta Tester Club.... HARDCORE, NOT LW licensing.

I think some of the confusion is that LightWave CORE is the name of the next generation LW product and HARDCORE is the name of the Beta Tester Club. The HC membership is NOT necessary for using the next NT product called LW CORE.
As far as I can tell, we do not have official confirmation on this.

The question is, IS there a fee for downloading updates after the first year or not?

If I own CORE 10.0, what is the cost to download an update to 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 and 10.3.1 after one year? Does it depend on when those updates are released? If 10.1 and 10.2 are released in the second year are they free for CORE 10.0 owners or is another year of membership or a flat upgrade fee required for download? If 10.3.1 is released in the third year, will that mean I need to pay two additional annual update fees to keep current for all those releases? If I skip the second year updates, can I pay one annual upgrade fee in the third year and get the latest update or do I have to also pay extra for the intervening updates (pay for the skipped year)? Or are all 10.x updates prior to 11.0 free and included at no cost to CORE 10.0 owners regardless of when they are released?

MacGregg
02-05-2009, 07:05 AM
@MacGregg

Thank's for the info, it's just I'm a bit unsure about all of this right now. I just found the videos on YouTube and I must say I think you're right, Hardcore is just a club, and Core itself is the new LightWave.

The pricing is too steep I think, at least for hobbyists. And I'm still curious to know how upgrades will work even if it's not a subscription. Like others I'm curious if skipping versions will break your entitlement to upgrade pricing. Anyway, I think they'll gain new ground with the new architecture, but at the same time they'll loose a lot of hobbyists that simply cannot afford such prices.

Being a hobbyist myself it's kinda sickening really because I bought LightWave after ditching Maxon because of their disgracefully unfair policy. In contrast, NewTek's new policy does not seem unfair, but it might as well be because it is unreal to many people in such a price bracket. I think a heck of a lot of folk will ditch LightWave and go for Carrara Pro and Blender because of this price hike.

They'll no doubt want to stick with LightWave, but will not be able to.

I really think they only changed the prices for new versions of LW and upgrades, if they did not mention anything else I think it is reasonable to assume that the policy is the same... point releases will be free for instance. And if you join the HARDCORE the upgrade price will even be the same at $395 this time and $495 in the future which is what we currently pay for LW upgrades. The only thing that might happen is they will come out with major upgrades every year instead of every 2 years or so. But, considering how much we got in LW9 to LW9.6 there was an ENORMOUS ENHANCEMENT of LW. They could have made an argument for some of them to be paid releases! NT is NOT stupid, they are not going to kill the golden goose and scare everyone away again! I hope!

Frank_Geppert
02-05-2009, 07:08 AM
I think we figured it out now. hardCore is the club and Core is LW 10 with an usual upgrade fee except you get the benefits of the club.

But now these questions arise: Does it make sense to upgrade as fast as possible? Do we lose all our plugins? If this happens we have to stick to 9.6 anyway at least in the case we need these plugins (as long as there is no replacement).
What features do we gain what do we lose?

I am interested in more information about this. But maybe it is just too early to ask.

Skonk
02-05-2009, 07:10 AM
None of the Lightwave 9.x plugins will work with core, this seems pretty obvious.

But with the new SDK when the plugin creators update them to work with CORE, they should be able to do much much more with them.

geo_n
02-05-2009, 07:11 AM
Trust CG Society to come up with the goods: http://features.cgsociety.org/story.php?story_id=4908

'LightWave CORE can be purchased the traditional way at the time of each final product release or by taking advantage of NewTek's new HardCORE membership program. '

I am happy now.

From that article it seems if I pay 395US till march I would be getting the lw10 license permantly. No yearly subscriptions for the software. I'm just scared the software wouldn't work after a year, had to install max 2009 which was a pain when you're in the middle of projects. If this happens to lw while doing my freelance projects I'll be pissed:devil:. xxxhardcore seems to be different all together.I hope there's no yearly software subscription.

Ember
02-05-2009, 07:23 AM
I can say I'm none too pleased. If I understand correctly, any developer that will use the Qt Toolkit for their plugins' interface will have to pay a license fee to Qt Software (http://www.qtsoftware.com/products/appdev/licensing). Or has to release the plugin as open source under the GPL.

How much is a license? From this thread (http://www.qtforum.org/article/24612/How-much-Qt-commercial-license-cost.html) I found this image (http://www.qtforum.org/index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=1666&h=10353840988b52a330b84c33c959322a6719dcc3&28d90699).

Hopefully I've misread something somewhere.

There's two licensing models for QT. One for free and opensource applications and then QT is totally free too. The another one is for commercial and closed source programs and then you have to pay the licensing fee.

Now if you are developing a plugin for Lightwave Core you aren't developing a completely new application are you? You are actually using Lightwave Core's SDK to do your work and to be able to do that you have to buy Core license. Newtek pays for the QT license in Core, not you. You pay Newtek for the license of Core. Simple.

Now if you create a totally independent application which just talks with core in some manner (eg. you create a specific plugin for the communication with Core) and you use QT to create that application AND that application is closed source and commercial THEN you have to pay the QT licensing fees. Vue xStream is a great example of this (but Vue isn't created using QT as far as I know).

Please check http://www.qtsoftware.com/products/appdev/licensing for more information.

:edit:
Oh, just noticed that Nokia changed QT into LGPL after buying Trolltech. This would mean: no licensing fees whatsoever. Period. Commercial license is for support and extra stuff.

pumeco
02-05-2009, 07:25 AM
@MacGregg

Well that doesn't sound too bad when you put it like that. Looks like I'll be able to keep with it (and hopefully will). I still don't like the price hike though. It's back to the Amiga days where hobbyists who wanted it only drooled over it instead of actually buying it.

Drooling was the only choice because they couldn't afford it!

No matter what way you look at it though, the price will certainly effect the amount of newcomers to the program. There are a lot more people who can afford the older price than the newer price, put it that way. They should have taken this opportunity to say, look, LightWave has changed in a big way, and kept the price as it was rather than scare off potential new hobbyists.

cagey5
02-05-2009, 07:29 AM
Wow.. Just came in here looking for answers like many others and found a Tonne load of conjecture.

I'm loving the way Core is shaping up and looking forward too to regular, annual feature rich updates. And I don't mind paying a fair price for that too. It looks as though we are going to have a killer tool on our hands.

At the moment though there are far more questions than answers, both on the way the pricing structure will work and how Core will perform. Hopefully we will get answres to all of that sooner rather than later.

I'm itching to get started on the new software and at the introductory price it looks like a bargain to me, but as with several others I have an aversity to subscriptions so I'm keen to get the gen on that and to be fair I don't think there has been any word from Newtek on how the ongoing payment system will work.

I'll save my ire/pleasure for the official word on that one.


But so far, Core seems to be everything that a lot of people have been demanding for Lightwave for a long time. I think there is much more below the surface yet to be explored. Let's get started.. :thumbsup:


oh And Coreified Avatars are so yesterdays thing.. ;)

cresshead
02-05-2009, 07:52 AM
From that article it seems if I pay 395US till march I would be getting the lw10 license permantly. No yearly subscriptions for the software. I'm just scared the software wouldn't work after a year, had to install max 2009 which was a pain when you're in the middle of projects. If this happens to lw while doing my freelance projects I'll be pissed:devil:. xxxhardcore seems to be different all together.I hope there's no yearly software subscription.


clarity> subscriptions do NOT lock you out of your software once your year is up...it keeps on working...subscription keeps you 'CURRENT' as in the VERY latest build and bug fix with early advancments made to the app arriving BEFORE the next major release..

simple as that....:)

Verlon
02-05-2009, 07:55 AM
Well I have several questions on the matter, and I will post them here as well as this seems to be the most dedicated thread to general questions.

1. FFIV owners were told by NT that the next paid upgrade would be free. Does this count?

2. Besides $100, is there any difference between a "charter member" and the membership you get on April Fool's Day (April 1, 2009)?

3. When does the clock start on your one year membership: the day you pay, or the official day of release in Q4, or some other day? What happens if you (Newtek) miss the Q4 launch day?

4. Core is clearly not LW9, yet 'further developments to LW9 are mentioned in the video. Do LW9 owners get those 'further updates,' too? Or will they be restricted to Core owners?

5. Do said updates to 9 include the modeler enhancements we were told about when we pre-ordered?

6. I have never used subscription software before. What happens when my core membership expires? Can I still use the old version of Core or does it deactivate?

7. Does LW Core have CC Sub-Ds working?

8. Explain GPU-aware. Does this mean it will use the latest openGL to the fullest for fastest previews? Does it mean that it will leverage the GPU for floating point math to aid in render times? In either case (specifically please) will it deal with SLI? Crossfire? The new 3 card configurations?

9. Will there be a demo version as there is for LW9? Student version?

10. Times are tough. Can we wash the cars and mow the grass at NT HQ to work off some of the upgrade prices? (ok that wasn't serious...you don't have to answer this one)

colkai
02-05-2009, 07:55 AM
From that article it....

Dude, please, change your reply colour, it is painful to read. my eyes, my eyes!!

hrgiger
02-05-2009, 08:28 AM
Dude, please, change your reply colour, it is painful to read. my eyes, my eyes!!

Yes, birds eyes are very sensitive. That color is painful.

leroy3rd
02-05-2009, 08:31 AM
If you've started with an EDU version of LW 7.5, sis you buy the upgrades to 8/9.6? Cause if you did then You're not running an EDU version anymore, you're running a commercial version of LW 9.6. Which makes you OK to participate in the HardCORE program ($395).

If you're still using the EDU version of 7.5, your upgrade path is another $100 to purchase LW 9.6 at $495 I think, with free access to the HardCORE program.

That's from what I understand.

Unfortunately, I got 7.5 with the upgrade to 8 (under edu license), then when 9 came out I didn't upgrade to full commercial license then upgrade to 9 (would have cost about $400 extra), but instead purchased an edu license for 9. :-(

-LeRoy3rd

Axis3d
02-05-2009, 08:33 AM
Has anyone had success signing up for HardCore? I've clicked on the link to Join, but seems to just take me to the Newtek registration site. I don't see a place for HardCore.

ben martin
02-05-2009, 08:43 AM
Dude, please, change your reply colour, it is painful to read. my eyes, my eyes!!

Yup, I simple pass trough his posts... even risking to loose nice thoughts from him.

About Core, my main concern is about the license system.
Hope they don't plan to lock Core in a cage of "must pay to get anything" system.
Worst would be the chance of the software deactivate itself if not upgraded after one year license.

Let's believe NT is not planning to shot it self on the foot! :stumped:

sadkkf
02-05-2009, 08:46 AM
Is the video available anywhere? Even my T1 connection failed to get through yesterday.

JMCarrigan
02-05-2009, 08:47 AM
Has anyone had success signing up for HardCore? I've clicked on the link to Join, but seems to just take me to the Newtek registration site. I don't see a place for HardCore.

I;ve asked over and over how to buy - still no response. I'm basing my desire to order on the belief that CORE will not deactivate if not upgraded for a couple years.

praa
02-05-2009, 08:47 AM
My second question is:
Does anybody from Newtek read this forum thread anyway?

i hope not :) these core threads are so speculative let's hope they work on the soft instead

OpenCL (let's hope it does volumetrics and voxels and occlusion pass) and full open access to the soft is great it is like a 3D OS

i hope it is not going to be hard for people like Graham (of HD-instance fame) to adapt their plug in to the new architecture

happy with newtek for this modern moove on C++ and open standards f*ck autodesk and the stock market driven managers

Axis3d
02-05-2009, 08:47 AM
Here's a link to the video:

http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/Lw+core#watch%3Dv17421006ShAqREfA

ben martin
02-05-2009, 08:49 AM
Is the video available anywhere? Even my T1 connection failed to get through yesterday.

You are not alone... I was connected one hour before and when it should beging I got nothing.

You can find the video on Youtube:
AbnRanger courtesy:


AbnRanger
Registered User
LW CORE presentation videos

---------------------------
Thought I would post some quick YouTube links until Newtek makes it available elsewhere.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkQO5l5PJA

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELoPKLbjhcM

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b41aiQZwZ40

Skonk
02-05-2009, 08:57 AM
Core is now showing up in the Newtek Store (from register.newtek.com)...

Would like to see some replies from newtek to all the questions here though before i spend any money.

cresshead
02-05-2009, 09:03 AM
go read this>>

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94787

waverguy
02-05-2009, 09:05 AM
Has anyone seen or found what the system requirements are for Core?

sadkkf
02-05-2009, 09:10 AM
Here's a link to the video:

http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/Lw+core#watch%3Dv17421006ShAqREfA

Thanks.

Adrian Lopez
02-05-2009, 09:17 AM
Jin Choung will be pleased with Jim's answers in the thread that cresshead linked to above:


Question 1: Is HardCORE a new subscription program for LightWave?
Answer 1: Yes, but it is not mandatory. You can still buy LightWave upgrades the way you always have in the past. It's an optional program that will allow you to interact more closely with our developers and participate in the development of LightWave CORE. It also provides early access to the LightWave CORE technology. There are other benefits, as well.

Question 2: How often do you plan to ship a major paid upgrade?
Answer 2: Development plans are just that....plans; but we do hope to ship major paid upgrades more often than we have in the past. The CORE architecture will give us the opportunity to innovate faster than we've been able to previously.

Question 3: Will I be forced to upgrade or punished if I don't upgrade?
Answer 3: No. Just as always, you can choose to upgrade whenever you want and there will be no penalty if you choose not to. You can skip as many upgrades as you want and still come back in at any time and purchase the current upgrade at the current upgrade price.

Question 4: Will bug fixes continue to be free?
Answer 4: Yes.

Question 5: Does the HardCORE subscription program include the LightWave CORE, or do I have to pay extra when it ships?
Answer 5: It is included.

Question 6: What if you don't ship LightWave CORE in Q4 like you planned, and my HardCORE subscription expires before you ship?
Answer 6: You'll still get it. We'll guarantee at least one paid upgrade with each annual HardCORE subscription.

Question 7: How much will the HardCORE subscription cost next year?
Answer 7: We don't know yet. It's hard to predict our future costs and prices, but it will likely be the same as it is this year.

Question 8: When can I sign up for HardCORE?
Answer 8: Soon...probably in the next day or two. We'll send out a notice as soon as sign-up is available.

Question 9: What if don't live in the United States, can I still sign up for HardCORE?
Answer 9: Yes, you can sign up directly with NewTek on our site. We should have all that ready in a day or two.

beverins
02-05-2009, 11:07 AM
Looks so far like EDU customers are not being thought of.

There is no way I can afford 30 licenses of Core at $395 each.

I honestly hope that Newtek doesn't adopy E-on's ultra-bad EDU pricing scheme of 1-year limited licenses, full price for network licensing AND full-price maintenance subscription on TOP of that.

I am fighting tooth and nail at my university to keep Lightwave on the roll to teach in our classes. We have Autodesk Maya and 3DSMax here to teach as well. I hope I'll be hearing some good news with this because I think it is important to teach Lightwave in addition to Maya here and to integrate the two in a pipeline because that's a useful skill for students to have.

I don't mind the higher pricing and the sub fees in principle, but I'm not the one who signs off on the purchase orders. We got Maya for free from Autodesk. Not expecting Newtek to give us stuff for free, but I'm hoping, praying and wishing they'll keep their usual generous attitude towards EDU customers.

Aside from the poor presentation video (I read the apology, Jim is a big man to apologize like that) LWCore looks very exciting. I hope I can be teaching that excitement to students here.

beverins
02-05-2009, 11:08 AM
Other link to the reveal teaser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkQO5l5PJA part 1

mav3rick
02-05-2009, 11:11 AM
Looks so far like EDU customers are not being thought of.

There is no way I can afford 30 licenses of Core at $395 each.

I honestly hope that Newtek doesn't adopy E-on's ultra-bad EDU pricing scheme of 1-year limited licenses, full price for network licensing AND full-price maintenance subscription on TOP of that.

I am fighting tooth and nail at my university to keep Lightwave on the roll to teach in our classes. We have Autodesk Maya and 3DSMax here to teach as well. I hope I'll be hearing some good news with this because I think it is important to teach Lightwave in addition to Maya here and to integrate the two in a pipeline because that's a useful skill for students to have.

I don't mind the higher pricing and the sub fees in principle, but I'm not the one who signs off on the purchase orders. We got Maya for free from Autodesk. Not expecting Newtek to give us stuff for free, but I'm hoping, praying and wishing they'll keep their usual generous attitude towards EDU customers.

Aside from the poor presentation video (I read the apology, Jim is a big man to apologize like that) LWCore looks very exciting. I hope I can be teaching that excitement to students here.

excelent! we are gonna do core army

cagey5
02-05-2009, 11:12 AM
Be nice if established fixed educational establishments were sold it for a nominal value to cover administration/dongle only as it must rank up there as some of the cheapest advertising going and a great way to tap into future artists right at the start of the learning curve.

mav3rick
02-05-2009, 11:26 AM
for the moment i have just have this crazy idea if 3rd party developer will be able to use sdk to write own tools ... imagine 3d coat guy do zbrush painter inside lw... within lw interface or separate gui

cagey5
02-05-2009, 11:38 AM
for the moment i have just have this crazy idea if 3rd party developer will be able to use sdk to write own tools ... imagine 3d coat guy do zbrush painter inside lw... within lw interface or separate gui

I think that's exactly what Core will be capable of.

joeldberry
02-05-2009, 11:42 AM
There is only ONE reason why a company would EVER charge an upfront annual "subscription" fee (i.e., charged now in Q1 for the product in Q4): they NEED/WANT to post that income in the CURRENT period. This usually means they NEED the cash OR they need to impress Wall Street and/or their stockholders (i.e., meet projections, etc.).

Since Newtek doesn't fall into the latter, we can assume they are offering this "pay to play" BETA to those who willingly part with their money NOW instead of waiting until Q4. NewTek will see an immediate infusion of cash. As an added benefit, those who do subscribe can save $$$ as well.

I have successfully used this metaphor to infuse cash quickly: instead of charging $100 per hour for consulting, I will often sell a block of time (i.e., 10 hours) for $750. Yes, over the period of 10 work hours, I lose $250. But I have $750 in cash in hand, instead of sitting idly by waiting for that first $100 that may never come. The customer gets a discount and can use my consulting time against that block of hours.

Having said this, NewTek has lost money (in the form of unrealized revenue) over the last couple of years by NOT charging for 9.x updates, yet they have continued to pay their employees, hire new "high-priced" talent, and purchase patented technology/ software during that time. I would imagine that they seriously NEED cash in order to get CORE off the ground successfully. This is an opportunity for those who want to save $$$ on the final release and get "pay to play" benefits of CORE months before anyone else will. Newtek gets cash in hand to finance the development, and the early adopters get to play with the new technology.

I am not saying it's right or wrong. Just a logical business decision based on a successful model. Some customers will wait. Some customers will buy now. They are hoping MORE customers will fall into the latter category. But those who wait will end up spending more money on pricier upgrades, so NewTek covers their bases both ways.

jin choung
02-05-2009, 11:54 AM
Jin Choung will be pleased with Jim's answers in the thread that cresshead linked to above:

he is! : )

and he is in. and as promised, with bells on.

i totally "get" what was shown yesterday. it wasn't flashy. it wasn't impressive in terms of production value. but it gave a glimpse into the core of core. it gave a taste into the design decisions, the philosophy underlying the software. and it looks good. it looks solid. it looks like they've really been paying attention to what folks have been asking for for a long time now.

i wanted to believe after the hints during the two week promo. there was a hiccup. but i'm pleased to report that i DO believe. and i am in.

jin

cresshead
02-05-2009, 11:58 AM
he is! : )

and he is in. and as promised, with bells on.

jin

"happy happy, joy joy" :D

Alliante
02-05-2009, 12:57 PM
he is! : )

and he is in. and as promised, with bells on.

i totally "get" what was shown yesterday. it wasn't flashy. it wasn't impressive in terms of production value. but it gave a glimpse into the core of core. it gave a taste into the design decisions, the philosophy underlying the software. and it looks good. it looks solid. it looks like they've really been paying attention to what folks have been asking for for a long time now.

i wanted to believe after the hints during the two week promo. there was a hiccup. but i'm pleased to report that i DO believe. and i am in.

jin

I'm actually glad to hear you say that, friend. I was a bit worried about the phrasing of the text at first as well, but I knew it wasn't going to be a full-blown subscription model (I have faith in the company).

It was a bit haphazard & crazy, perhaps a bit better planning & phrasing before giving to the public might have been in order, but this quaint & quirky behavior is one of the many endearing qualities of a company ran by human beings not drones.

sadkkf
02-05-2009, 01:08 PM
Until Jim Plant addressed the common questions and concerns from the group the presentation of CORE seemed to raise the ire of more than one of us.

What got me was the presentation and subsequent details didn't really address our basic questions, mainly about pricing, which is a primary concern for most of us I would imagine.

Although the teasers leading up to the presentation were fun and the presentation itself was ... what it was ... it seems more important to provide critical details after the fact to assure a positive reception.

As most, I have to admit the idea of subscription-based software repels me, after hearing from Jim, I'm once again energized and can't wait to join!

PS--As a developer, I must stress how important usability is. That is, don't give the user buttons that don't work. :)

Paul_Boland
02-05-2009, 01:27 PM
Other link to the reveal teaser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkQO5l5PJA part 1

Thanks, interesting video. I've seen folks here talk about having to pay for point upgrades but I didn't see that on the video or the website (though I only skimmed the website). I'll need to know more about Core before I invest, though as a hobbiest, 8.5 is doing me well at the moment.

praa
02-05-2009, 02:39 PM
i REALLY hope we keep the scene and objects separated on the disk

jin choung
02-05-2009, 02:54 PM
i REALLY hope we keep the scene and objects separated on the disk

yikes. you're entitled to your opinion of course but personally, i really hope NOT.

there's no reason for it if it's done right ala maya.

in any case, it is what it already is so i guess we'll find out. i believe collada is a full scene description format so it might already be a merged format.

jin

DuneBoy
02-05-2009, 02:59 PM
Now if you are developing a plugin for Lightwave Core you aren't developing a completely new application are you?

If plugins have to link to a Qt library they could be consider an application even though the plugin itself is a library. It was bad enough having to become a rocket scientist to write plugins, now I have to become a copyright attorney too?


You are actually using Lightwave Core's SDK to do your work and to be able to do that you have to buy Core license. Newtek pays for the QT license in Core, not you. You pay Newtek for the license of Core. Simple.

First point. Core has no GUI SDK (for regular widgets), it uses Qt. If I need to draw a button I don't call a NewTek-built Core SDK function, I'm using Qt (I assume). Point two. At the moment, the SDK (the old one) is freely available to anyone. Whether someone owns LW or not, they can still code and release a plugin. Hopefully that won't change with the Core SDK.


Oh, just noticed that Nokia changed QT into LGPL after buying Trolltech. This would mean: no licensing fees whatsoever. Period. Commercial license is for support and extra stuff.

Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't seen that. Unfortunately it only applies to the unreleased Qt version 4.5 (http://www.qtsoftware.com/developer/faqs/159) (which will hopefully be what Core will use). I could go without the support that comes with the Commercial license but the extra stuff like Visual Studio integration would've been nice.



Dude, what video did you watch?
Do you use a Mac? Because if you did you would want CORE because any plug ins would work with your system. No more having to wait a year for a port (or maybe never get one at all).

That would be true for scripts, but any compiled plugins will still need to be re-compiled for each system. The "single file" Mach-O bundle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach-O) that the Core Tech FAQ mentions is simply a container format that would house the plugin for each platform.

dglidden
02-05-2009, 05:19 PM
As Chuck explained in another thead, LightWave Core upgrade for 9.x owners will cost $395 from now till 03/31/09, then it will cost $495 untill LWC final is released. After the release it will cost $695. This is for the upgrade from LW 9.x

As for the subscription, there is no subscription, But the pricing for "upgrades" after 2009 are still undecided.

Can you point to this thread please? I'd like to read what he said.

Also how is an annual "membership" to receive certain benefits in exchange not a subscription? If I tell you that if you pay for a "membership" I will send you a magazine every month for the next year, at which point you need to buy another "membership", can you legitimately argue that I'm not selling you a subscription?

What we're confused about is what, exactly, you get in terms of actual CORE usage/upgrades with and without this subscription.

lwhermit
02-06-2009, 04:53 AM
Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't seen that. Unfortunately it only applies to the unreleased Qt version 4.5 (http://www.qtsoftware.com/developer/faqs/159) (which will hopefully be what Core will use).



From "What's New in the Release Candidate?" for Qt ver. 4.5:

"Support for 64-bit applications on the Mac platform with the Cocoa API"

If that is new then presumably Core will use it since I understand NewTek is saying 64-bit for Win, Mac, and Linux.

Here is a link to a whitepaper entitled "Qt® Now Available Under LGPL
Implications for Commercial and Government Users"

http://www.ics.com/files/docs/Qt_LGPL.pdf

It appears to me that if you are creating a plugin (a dll) that uses a Qt Library, rather than modifies a Library, under LGPL you don't have to pay for a license or reveal your source code. I'd be interested in hearing your comments. Thanks!

Alliante
02-06-2009, 08:42 AM
From "What's New in the Release Candidate?" for Qt ver. 4.5:

"Support for 64-bit applications on the Mac platform with the Cocoa API"

If that is new then presumably Core will use it since I understand NewTek is saying 64-bit for Win, Mac, and Linux.

Here is a link to a whitepaper entitled "Qt® Now Available Under LGPL
Implications for Commercial and Government Users"

http://www.ics.com/files/docs/Qt_LGPL.pdf

It appears to me that if you are creating a plugin (a dll) that uses a Qt Library, rather than modifies a Library, under LGPL you don't have to pay for a license or reveal your source code. I'd be interested in hearing your comments. Thanks!

Your deduction and insight are true with the LGPL. This was the only thing keeping me from using QT casually, I'd prefer to have the option to have my software non-open source. And I'm a C++ guy when it comes to larger frameworks and programs, C doesn't cut it for me after 2000 lines....I've always been a fan of OO in any form.

With CORE I really need to get off my arse and learn the Python syntax and libraries.

EmperorPete
02-07-2009, 06:57 AM
This is from one of my threads:
Ok... I'll be blunt.
CORE looks interesting, but until I get a favorable answer to THIS question, NT and I aren't on good terms.
One of the stated "benefits" of HardCORE is getting updates to 9.x
Does this mean that those of us who can't afford HardCORE are now screwed out of bugfixes and updates? Are any future updates now reserved for the "elite" members???
If this is true, I must say I am VERY upset with NT. :2guns::vticon:
:cursin::lwicon::tsktsk:
I REALLY do hope this is not the case. A big draw for me was the free point updates; it was a selling point of 9, IIRC. And if this is true, that selling point is now moot. I'm pretty sure I paid for updates all the way through to the next full version of Lightwave.
I simply cannot afford to register for Core at this time, and by the time I might be able to, the price will have gone up. So does that mean that despite being a LW user for donkey's years I'm now out in the cold? I'm not at all impressed by that thought.

Randog
02-07-2009, 09:13 AM
he is! : )

and he is in. and as promised, with bells on.

i totally "get" what was shown yesterday. it wasn't flashy. it wasn't impressive in terms of production value. but it gave a glimpse into the core of core. it gave a taste into the design decisions, the philosophy underlying the software. and it looks good. it looks solid. it looks like they've really been paying attention to what folks have been asking for for a long time now.

i wanted to believe after the hints during the two week promo. there was a hiccup. but i'm pleased to report that i DO believe. and i am in.

jin

Me too.

I am surprised at the number of people that have such a myopic view of the presentation.

As far as paying for point upgrades - We, the LW community, have been getting for free what most everyone else has paid for. Times change, companies change, and business models change.

I think it is a good thing.

KillMe
02-07-2009, 12:00 PM
the presentation to me looked good - i'm happy how things seem to be going with lw - all i wanna know is if i sign up for the hardcore thing and i get my 1 year membership and then core ships late after my subscription ends do i still get my shiny release version of core?

Sting
02-07-2009, 12:17 PM
the presentation to me looked good - i'm happy how things seem to be going with lw - all i wanna know is if i sign up for the hardcore thing and i get my 1 year membership and then core ships late after my subscription ends do i still get my shiny release version of core?

From: An Apology and Some Questions Answered

Question 6: What if you don't ship LightWave CORE in Q4 like you planned, and my HardCORE membership expires before you ship?
Answer 6: You'll still get it. We'll guarantee at least one paid upgrade with each annual HardCORE membership.

KillMe
02-07-2009, 12:49 PM
From: An Apology and Some Questions Answered

Question 6: What if you don't ship LightWave CORE in Q4 like you planned, and my HardCORE membership expires before you ship?
Answer 6: You'll still get it. We'll guarantee at least one paid upgrade with each annual HardCORE membership.

sweet - maybe should read whole thread - will sign up now while its cheap as since jsut a hobbist might be the alst one i can justify

Cageman
02-07-2009, 01:08 PM
Me too.

I am surprised at the number of people that have such a myopic view of the presentation.

As far as paying for point upgrades - We, the LW community, have been getting for free what most everyone else has paid for. Times change, companies change, and business models change.

I think it is a good thing.

Yeah... the presentation wasn't flashy, but as Jin stated, it speakes VOLUMES of the design of CORE. That is what I'm interrested in more than the tools (those will come later anyhow).

I'm in too btw... not yet though... need to transfer money first. :D

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Mikael Burman
Cinematics Artist, Massive Entertainment