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View Full Version : ARGHHH!!!! Another big bug in new 9.6



umbcel
01-25-2009, 02:26 PM
Hi guys,
i am so frustrated from LW 9.6 reliability.
I was just tryng to render some my old scenes and decide to compare LW rendering engine with Modo rendering engine.
I found an important error in the rendered image.
Look into the red area in the attached picture named bathfaucet_lw96.jpg.
I compared this error with an older rendering made with 9.3.1 and no strange behaviour occur.
Then i have placed a single rectangular poly as a mirror inside the sink and rendered again for best see the error (look the error_in_mirror.jpg)
I tryed to change all parameters related camera settings and rendering settings but nothing help me to solve the problem.
:(
I hope in a fast answer from the NewTek or i swear that change software immediately.

68683
68684
68685

Stunt Pixels
01-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Ray recursion limit?

umbcel
01-25-2009, 03:09 PM
Ray recursion limit?

AH AH AH
i am not so chicken.
I tried RRL until the max value of 64
:(

jay3d
01-25-2009, 03:26 PM
can u provide the scene file for testing?

Thanks!

umbcel
01-25-2009, 03:46 PM
can u provide the scene file for testing?

Thanks!

Is here (http://www.netfly.it/download/bathfaucet.zip)

Sensei
01-25-2009, 10:03 PM
Wow. This scene even with disabled GI is rendering 30 minutes, so it is not easy to find problem..

But try this: disable Image World Environment, and set Backdrop Color to red and try rendering.. You will see that these black places are becoming red.. Which means that ray recursion limit was hit in these areas.. Conclusion- these black areas are coming from Image World Environment..

Ray recursion limit might be hit not just by ray flying in air, long distance fly, but also those penetrating surfaces with sub-surface scattering, and materials, which you used extensively..

umbcel
01-26-2009, 02:45 AM
Wow. This scene even with disabled GI is rendering 30 minutes, so it is not easy to find problem..

But try this: disable Image World Environment, and set Backdrop Color to red and try rendering.. You will see that these black places are becoming red.. Which means that ray recursion limit was hit in these areas.. Conclusion- these black areas are coming from Image World Environment..

Ray recursion limit might be hit not just by ray flying in air, long distance fly, but also those penetrating surfaces with sub-surface scattering, and materials, which you used extensively..

Hi Sensei,
you can disable something to speed up the render and see with your eyes.
I rendered another pic as you suggest to me, no imageworld and white background.
The result?
Look with your eyes

68694

mike_stening
01-26-2009, 03:43 AM
ok i've had a look at this and i think i have found the problem, or at least located the source of the problem. the black area is around the overflow in the sink, i originally thought there may be some model error going on but on adding a new camera and checking the preprocess render you could see a weird shape appear exactly where the render error appears to be (see pic below) so to double check this i turned off the sigma on the sink and it rendered fine, you can still see a black dot but this should be there as it is the overflow hole. i'll look into it a bit more.

mike_stening
01-26-2009, 04:03 AM
ok definately a problem in that sigma layer or the shader itself. taking the fresnel node off the sigma just caused the black hole to get bigger, so i replaced the sigma with the carpaint node as it would do pretty much the same as what you where doing with the sigma (with a bit more tweaking) and the black hole has gone.
sigma error ? or does sigma not like certain models?
if i have time i'll play some more.
as for render time it didnt seem too bad especially when you take all the SSS off. though the candle needs it and the soap a little.

Matt
01-26-2009, 04:13 AM
The Sigma shader isn't the fastest thing on Earth, I use it sparingly.

umbcel
01-26-2009, 04:29 AM
The Sigma shader isn't the fastest thing on Earth, I use it sparingly.

No, the problem is in SigmaII material.
I think that all two Sigma materials aren't usefull because are more buggy.
Replacing SigmaII material with Sigma shader works well bit u must increase the quality to 1000%

jay3d
01-26-2009, 04:31 AM
This is a KNOWN limitation in the pre-processed SSS materials by design:

https://secure.newtek.com/FogBugz/default.asp?18320_g3o2au1s



By Design
This is how it works.
The preprocess can only process parts of the frame which the camera sees.

- Antti

Matt
01-26-2009, 04:33 AM
No, the problem is in SigmaII material.
I think that all two Sigma materials aren't usefull because are more buggy.
Replacing SigmaII material with Sigma shader works well bit u must increase the quality to 1000%

My apologies, I meant Sigma2

jay3d
01-26-2009, 04:54 AM
The sigma2 object has to be inside the camera field of view or the preprocess will not reach hidden parts even if it reflected by raytracing.

an annoying limitation really:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6600/blackholeas6.jpg

.. now with the camera zoomed out to make objects fall into FOV:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1628/noholeca2.jpg

umbcel
01-26-2009, 05:02 AM
My compliments to NewTek, now i am sure of what i must do.
Changing of 3D software is needed asap.
Good bye

mike_stening
01-26-2009, 05:11 AM
got to admit that IS a pretty poor limitation.
not one to make me change apps but certainly not a good one to have in built by design.
this IMHO needs changing.
yeah there was a solution to this particular problem but not to all.

Sensei
01-26-2009, 05:19 AM
The sigma2 object has to be inside the camera field of view or the preprocess will not reach hidden parts even if it reflected by raytracing.

an annoying limitation really:


Now that makes perfect sense!
Seeing Antti response I was skeptical too, but this image really showed what is going on from programming point of view..

So simply selecting faucet polygons, cutting and pasting to another layer should help..

Matt
01-26-2009, 05:20 AM
My compliments to NewTek, now i am sure of what i must do.
Changing of 3D software is needed asap.
Good bye

Bit of an over-reaction, oh well, bye then.

Netvudu
01-26-2009, 05:29 AM
Anyone who leaves a software for such a reason is in for a surprise at any other package. The number of similar "surprises" I´ve encounted at Maya´s implementation of Mental Ray is endless...

mike_stening
01-26-2009, 05:49 AM
i'm assuming that the reason for it not being implemented is not because it cant but more to the point that the computational requirements would be too great?
but to be honest i doubt i would use SSS for an object that required that amount of reflection, there are other nodes that would do that just as well.
something to bare in mind for the future.

mike_stening
01-26-2009, 06:28 AM
well not sure if this is any use but this is the scene with an ammended carpaint node. looks pretty good and doesnt have the SSS problem (obviously)
umbcel all 3d apps will have their little problems that you will have to find work arounds for, in fact all apps have these things as nothing is perfect otherwise new versions wouldnt be made.

colkai
01-26-2009, 07:28 AM
My compliments to NewTek, now i am sure of what i must do.
Changing of 3D software is needed asap.
Good bye

Wow, 18 posts, one problem and you drop the software?
Good luck with that, I'd love your money if the first hurdle you hit, you can just buy more stuff. Not to mention having the time to relearn a whole new package from scratch, colour me envious! :ohmy:

kopperdrake
01-26-2009, 07:41 AM
Some people must have money to burn :P Mike - I like your surfacing answer :thumbsup:

mike_stening
01-26-2009, 07:52 AM
yeah, i couldnt imagine just ditching a bit of software cos one thing didnt work quite how i wanted it (doesnt mean its not working right), what with all the learning time needed and cash.
cheers kopperdrake, not too shabby for about half an hours work. and i cant really see the need for SSS for a sink, especially when the car paint will do it and alot quicker too. could do with some more fine tweeks but its good.

Mike_RB
01-26-2009, 07:57 AM
This is a poor limitation of these shaders. They should use a wider angle of view than the render to hopefully include objects just off frame. Also it would be good to have any non-animation or nodes limited by this to be in a different category for shaders so it's obvious these limits are there.

Matt
01-26-2009, 08:28 AM
Wow, 18 posts, one problem and you drop the software?
Good luck with that, I'd love your money if the first hurdle you hit, you can just buy more stuff.

One could be forgiven for thinking the worst in this situation, if you know what I mean.

;)

Exception
01-26-2009, 08:48 AM
Ok, so you post an inflammatory post threatening to buy other software without knowing what the problem is but also claming there is 'another' big bug?

So... First of all, this is NOT a bug. Second, what's the 'other' 'big bug' then you refer to, and third, if this documented limitation that is really easy to solve is reason for you to drop a software package, good luck out there, and happy frustrations to you. :thumbsup:

virtualcomposer
01-26-2009, 09:12 AM
Grass is never greener on the other side, it's just another shade of green. If anybody has been on the Maya forum, wow, well good luck with relearning a whole new software and whole new bug issues. The only reason I would leave would be if LW crashed everytime I opened it then tech support never responded and there hasn't been an update in a year to fix the problem. Obviously Newtek is the total opposite of course. ( :

Darth Mole
01-26-2009, 09:23 AM
I hate to sound dismissive, but... well… 20 seconds in Photoshop would have solved that particular problem. I've never - ever - made a 3D render that I didn't want to touch up in Photoshop afterwards. Even when rendering at huge resolutions with vast AA.

if Umbecl really wants to be bloody minded and ditch perfectly good (and rapidly improving) software because of one niggling issue, then, sorry, but 'see ya!'.

jay3d
01-26-2009, 11:01 AM
Learning workarounds of the software is an important part of learning a software, if u missed this part, then you'll never be a good 3D artist, and there will be always something that holds you back, as somebody here in the forum said "Push the software, and don't let it push u".

You have to learn how to use as much as u can from the software at hand, know the limitation, find solutions, enjoy the life.

And if u r more eager, learn the SDK, write simple plugins or scripts to aid your work.

There's no frustration here; discovering the software and it's limitation and overcoming those limitation is a wonderful and enjoyable adventure, believe me.

mike_stening
01-26-2009, 11:09 AM
Learning workarounds of the software is an important part of learning a software, if u missed this part, then you'll never be a good 3D artist, and there will be always something that holds you back, as somebody here in the forum said "Push the software, and don't let it push u".

You have to learn how to use as much as u can from the software at hand, know the limitation, find solutions, enjoy the life.

And if u r more eager, learn the SDK, write simple plugins or scripts to aid your work.

There's no frustration here; discovering the software and it's limitation and overcoming those limitation is a wonderful and enjoyable adventure, believe me.

agreed. even just doing that little change earlier was a fun way of solving the problem:thumbsup:

ftown
01-26-2009, 12:38 PM
that wouldn't even show up as a problem on my radar, good solution guys, and more importantly, good attitude. cheers

Ztreem
01-26-2009, 03:03 PM
My compliments to NewTek, now i am sure of what i must do.
Changing of 3D software is needed asap.
Good bye

LOL! This is the funniest thing I've read in this forum in a while.
Your life must suck, if you have to switch/buy new things/friends/partner as fast as you find that it doesn't work/behave as expected.
Good luck on the other side, I hope the grass is really green and soft for you there. :thumbsup: :twak:

virtualcomposer
01-26-2009, 03:14 PM
Guess it would make it hard to keep friends, keep a job, a house, and so on with that type of mentality. LOL

umbcel
01-26-2009, 08:42 PM
ok, i was been so fast to change idea about software change, but i am not crazy.
I am LW user from 4.0 and initially i like so much LW but with increasing of releases i not notice a good evolution.
Today there are other great competitors as Cinema 4D and Luxology Modo.
Especially Modo promises very well.
I am trying the trial version of Modo 3.02 and is fantastic.
The render engine is fast and accurate.
The modelling tools are marvelous.
The painting is built in.
There is order and rationality in the interface.
I look also some videos and picture about the new incoming Modo 4.01 and i see that in Luxology are implementing other animation tools, fibers, wonderful caustics and dispersion and a marvelous OpenGL preview.
I am very angry because Modo is a young software but really great.
Lightwave is older but it has not been evolven well.
I think that Lightwave X is the last chance that NewTek have before failing completely.
I hope that they look finally to the future and not to the past.
Actually Modo is the future.

adk
01-26-2009, 09:50 PM
Just out of curiosity. Apart from the "videos and picture about the new incoming 4.01" have you actually read through the forums. Some interesting, and perhaps sobering, reading there.

If it 100% works for you for whatever you need/expect now & imagine/wish for in the future then go for it ... just make sure you're prepared for the ride.

adk

Stooch
01-26-2009, 10:51 PM
LOL MODO??!??!?!!?

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH..


dont let that door hit you on the *** on the way out.



ok, i was been so fast to change idea about software change, but i am not crazy.
I am LW user from 4.0 and initially i like so much LW but with increasing of releases i not notice a good evolution.
Today there are other great competitors as Cinema 4D and Luxology Modo.
Especially Modo promises very well.
I am trying the trial version of Modo 3.02 and is fantastic.
The render engine is fast and accurate.
The modelling tools are marvelous.
The painting is built in.
There is order and rationality in the interface.
I look also some videos and picture about the new incoming Modo 4.01 and i see that in Luxology are implementing other animation tools, fibers, wonderful caustics and dispersion and a marvelous OpenGL preview.
I am very angry because Modo is a young software but really great.
Lightwave is older but it has not been evolven well.
I think that Lightwave X is the last chance that NewTek have before failing completely.
I hope that they look finally to the future and not to the past.
Actually Modo is the future.

jameswillmott
01-26-2009, 11:01 PM
... but with increasing of releases i not notice a good evolution.

Compare 9.0 to 9.6 and you see what?

jay3d
01-26-2009, 11:14 PM
Some brain washed inhabitant of luxology.

FYI, some scenes modo had failed miserably to render correctly, especially when u compare the new radiosity engine in LW 9.6 and modo 302.

and that lame shading tree is not part of the future as u mentioned, as all the industry is going towards nodes.

I think that modo is over-hyped (marketing person worked in Alias before).

It's a copy of lightWave modeler with some important missing tools, like co-planar polygon reduction ..., and loads of bugs and crashes. (actually Silo modeler is 1000000 more capable than modo when it comes to modeling if u ask me)

and don't let me start with how slow is the reflection blurring, and how noisy renderings when the AA samples are hard coded on a maximum 64.

jay3d
01-26-2009, 11:20 PM
... and you can wait for another 5 years to see CA and bones deformation in modo, if u can afford the wait.

Sekhar
01-26-2009, 11:50 PM
dont let that door hit you on the *** on the way out.

Yeah, these "or-else" threats suck - there was another one recently around FFX issues, see http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93020. The sad part is, these folks vent their frustration on the forum users who're only trying to help.

Stooch
01-27-2009, 01:28 AM
Yeah, these "or-else" threats suck - there was another one recently around FFX issues, see http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93020. The sad part is, these folks vent their frustration on the forum users who're only trying to help.

LOL. i was just laughing at the irony if this poor shmuck going to modo as if somehow it will permanetly get rid of running into issues. riiiight.

p.s. i own both apps and currently waaay more excited about my purchase from newtek. luxology have alot of catching up to do. after my experience in the beta i have never been more confident in newtek.

Darth Mole
01-27-2009, 01:53 AM
Stooch - I totally agree. Modo just sits on my HD gathering virtual dust. Looks like 401 will feature - gasp - hair and fur. Just what I need, another bloody fibre tool (which I never use anyway).

Modo is BTF (bugged to f-). I can get it to crash simply by running it in the background and switching between apps. How's that for stability? I'm much more excited by the strides the new NT team have made clearing up the mess left by the Luxology crew, and what's now in store for LW10.

Indeed, if the new LW is everything we hope it to be, I may well sell my seat of Modo, unless 401 really impresses... (like being able to run for more than 30 minutes without disappearing).

Mike_RB
01-27-2009, 06:04 AM
and don't let me start with how slow is the reflection blurring, and how noisy renderings when the AA samples are hard coded on a maximum 64.

The reflection blurring samples are unlocked from the AA samples. Adjusting one does not effect the other. You either need to adjust the shading rate or up the blurry samples.

jaxtone
01-27-2009, 06:51 AM
Many Lightwaver´s have told me that they really loves Modo as a modeling tool! I haven´t tried it in person yet but whats your opinion... is it really that bad?

If not this guy Umbcel are satisfied with Lightwave it´s up to him! Right, threats are no solution but now he announce that he have made his choice! (Now I don´t know the reasons for leaving, but it must be more behind it than just this incident. Otherwise its a total riddle to me!)

Whats the fuzz and frustration about Modo really contains Jay? To me it sounds like its more behind it than a simple reason that someone overreact and says he will aband Newtek!

scratch33
01-27-2009, 07:09 AM
Ha ha ha... this make me laugh... very cool joke.

changing lightwave to modo because you have found a bug in lightwave...

Very cool joke, realy.

I use lightwave and modo. modo is a good soft for same stuf. But he has a Infinity OF BUGs too.

Crash is a feature in modo. :D

warrenwc
01-27-2009, 07:58 AM
Tried Modo when it was young. Didn't much like it except to play with.
I SWEAR I'M LEAVING LW TOO!(unless they keep up the good work:D)

virtualcomposer
01-27-2009, 12:53 PM
LOL. i was just laughing at the irony if this poor shmuck going to modo as if somehow it will permanetly get rid of running into issues. riiiight.

p.s. i own both apps and currently waaay more excited about my purchase from newtek. luxology have alot of catching up to do. after my experience in the beta i have never been more confident in newtek.

I couldn't agree more. Newtek, for me anyway, has been the only company that seems to really value their users opinions and needs. It's impossible to get to them all after all but any company is that way. There is never a perfect software that's why they come with upgrades every year or so. 9.6 has blown even 9.5 away and can I say how fast the renders are compared to most other apps I've encountered.

virtualcomposer
01-27-2009, 12:58 PM
Tried Modo when it was young. Didn't much like it except to play with.
I SWEAR I'M LEAVING LW TOO!(unless they keep up the good work:D)

Fine I'm going to Bryce & Maya! no bugs and everything is perfect. All the forums say perfection and rendering an HD 150 frame motion blur & radiosity and all only takes 15 minutes. LOL (kidding)

cagey5
01-27-2009, 01:09 PM
Wrong thread :)

OOZZEE
01-27-2009, 09:36 PM
this forum used to be a cool place... but often I see the same regulars pathetically attempting to ridicule members again, this time, one who hasnt insulted anyone but only expressed his dissatisfaction for the software... Instead of trying to coax him back into a manner of understanding the situation and becoming less angry about his dilemma, you bash him...

You tried to help but he was still unhappy about it... so what !! but some of you think that gives you permission to mock him now????

ya I know, everyone is entitled to their opinion blah blah blah and its a free country...

but in the end, thats potentially one less LW user now...

even though every software has its problems, he still wont be using your beloved software with problems... and you guys didnt help that... IMHO

UnCommonGrafx
01-27-2009, 09:43 PM
Forum is still cool. People may have changed... but the forum has maintained.
I will give the users of the forum credit, though: they are less tolerant of the "Human Spam Bots" which come into our midst once in a while.
They will never be users so no real loss.

Back to the point of the thread: there are limitations with the node he chose; there are other nodes considered to be better for this use/purpose as provided in the example; and one can still achieve the high quality he/she expressed a desire for.

Not really all that bad, eh...

jay3d
01-27-2009, 11:04 PM
this forum used to be a cool place... but often I see the same regulars pathetically attempting to ridicule members again, this time, one who hasnt insulted anyone but only expressed his dissatisfaction for the software... Instead of trying to coax him back into a manner of understanding the situation and becoming less angry about his dilemma, you bash him...

You tried to help but he was still unhappy about it... so what !! but some of you think that gives you permission to mock him now????

ya I know, everyone is entitled to their opinion blah blah blah and its a free country...

but in the end, thats potentially one less LW user now...

even though every software has its problems, he still wont be using your beloved software with problems... and you guys didnt help that... IMHO

There's no cure for him, if you read the reply he did "that he's no chicken" you'll know immediately that his intention is to attack and bash the software & the community all together, a prove of that that he did not even try/consider the solutions we gave him, instead he begin to give us a lecture about shaping the future with modo ... eh?

Stooch
01-27-2009, 11:12 PM
this forum used to be a cool place.

well on your way out you could both watch each others asses so that pesky door doesn't leave a crack. i hear the modo community is far more accepting... as long as you dont start any negative threads about modo...

Intuition
01-28-2009, 12:25 AM
Man, I love me some modo and even get to use it in a render farm situation now and its really powerful in that kind of setup since, its already badass on a single workstation.

That being said..... EMPHASIS here.......

IF you think this is a problem in LW and you want to switch to modo to fix it please understand that you can only say that because you do not yet realize the limitations in modo.

Now understand I preach modo like an evangelical. I love it, but I love me some Lightwave too, even with Maya, max, XSi, Vray, mental ray, etc, at my disposal, I still find ways to make Lightwave do some work for me and I'll never abandon it.

Others here may agree with me, if you think going to modo will solve all your problems you aren't really understanding 3d software that much. Take into account I did read you used LW since 4.0. Me too.

See modo is great, its engine is right up there with Vray. Yet you'd be surprised how quickly I ran into walls with modo's render engine.

It doesn't do proper photoreal motion blur yet. We did a Mblur test in 302 beta that showed that LW had the accurate result. Allen Hastings will fix this for sure.

My point is that if you give up this quickly over a reflection problem thats easily fixed with a work around then you may as well not try modo because there are other things you will run into that are similar.

Don't get me wrong, again, I dig me some modo and its engine, but rappin on Newtek for this problem when I bet the NT team could fix it in a few builds, is really not necessary.

Mike-RB and others all try to give constructive criticism to the developers they beta test for so their product can be the best it can be. Did you contribute to the LW beta?

I have nearly all the big tools at my desktop from 10+ years of collecting and project spending. Yes I pull out the stallions and clydesdales (XSI Maya, max) and I get the bulls out (Mental ray and Vray) and even bring out the racing horse (modo) but there are times I need the workhorse to get the job done. Lightwave has a handy set of tools. The kind that you open the tool chest for and have to push the big shiny tools out of the way to get since its been lost in the pile.

I always find it there waiting patiently for me and it gets the job done when its the right tool for a certain shot, effect of visual solution.

Plus, not every place thats offering work can afford a mental ray farm sos its good to have the lightwave club badge when certain studios hiring are looking for those wearing the Lightwave club badge. Besides, F-Prime and Kray will probably be usable through screamer net soon. That will certainly add some extra passes options to your final composites eh?

Anyways, best of luck to you in modo. Its a great too, but no need to rip on Chuck and Jay and crew when they may very well be prepping something neat behind the scenes as we speak. ;)

colkai
01-28-2009, 01:57 AM
Well Said Intuition.
It ain't that we are LW obsessed here, just as Intuition says he loves Modo, some of us love LW. The point is don't blame limitations in software for failures, long, long before decent soft shadows, folks had invented the spinning light trick to solve a limitation.
That trick is still in use today, because at times, it is still the best/fastest solution.

Can you work around a problem? Is there a solution within your software pipeline? If so, take it. I could argue that LW's modeller sucks compared to others, but I find, with the addition of LWCAD (thank you Newtek), and a couple of free plugins, many of my problems are addressed. If not, I could always look at Silo, or even the free Wings3D and Blender for answers as I am on more or less a zero budget these days.

Throw ye not, the baby out with the bath water or ye toys out ye pram for the sake of a bit of frustration.

OOZZEE
01-28-2009, 05:48 AM
There's no cure for him, if you read the reply he did "that he's no chicken" you'll know immediately that his intention is to attack and bash the software & the community all together, a prove of that that he did not even try/consider the solutions we gave him, instead he begin to give us a lecture about shaping the future with modo ... eh?

hi Jay3d, I didnt interpret it that way at all... the guy tried to explain himself at one point. I just saw it that he was upset and was letting it out. maybe not the best way to do it, I agree... however I do not believe his intent was malicious or personal.... unfortunately some members here are quick to jump on the wagon to insult and make it personal with name calling etc etc!

JBT27
01-28-2009, 08:10 AM
ok, i was been so fast to change idea about software change, but i am not crazy.
I am LW user from 4.0 and initially i like so much LW but with increasing of releases i not notice a good evolution.
Today there are other great competitors as Cinema 4D and Luxology Modo.
Especially Modo promises very well.
I am trying the trial version of Modo 3.02 and is fantastic.
The render engine is fast and accurate.
The modelling tools are marvelous.
The painting is built in.
There is order and rationality in the interface.
I look also some videos and picture about the new incoming Modo 4.01 and i see that in Luxology are implementing other animation tools, fibers, wonderful caustics and dispersion and a marvelous OpenGL preview.
I am very angry because Modo is a young software but really great.
Lightwave is older but it has not been evolven well.
I think that Lightwave X is the last chance that NewTek have before failing completely.
I hope that they look finally to the future and not to the past.
Actually Modo is the future.

Just make sure you throw some large scenes at Modo before spending all that money.....seriously.....I'm working on a scene with 217K polys and it's dog slow. Sure, my hardware is getting on now, but this same scene flies in Modeler 9.6 - you know, that old neglected kludge of Modeler that's going to get replaced in X .... maybe :D

Modo's got some elegant tools, the ones that work as advertised anyway, but it's as buggy as a beehive, and at times disastrously unstable.

As to the forums....yeah, what Stooch said.....I once got an answer from someone, when I mentioned the slowness, who told me that Modo was an app of the future designed for machines of the future....WTF?? And that was no newbie spouting that lunacy.

And, just to remind you of where it came from, it has some bugs that are so specifically like now old LW bugs, you could only assume, if you didn't know, that the same people had developed it.

Modo has some nice stuff, it's a nice idea but with a long way to go, and expensive for it. Trial 3DCoat while you're at it, and see what you can add to LW for what Modo costs.

You got the reasoning and the solution to your problem very quickly - I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that or the advice about how green the grass is on the other side.....

Use your money for value, not hype.

No offence and no flame intended :)

Julian.

jaxtone
01-31-2009, 05:45 AM
It´s not uncommon to find almost exactly the same protectionism on other internet forums around the world! (It´s a very childish behavior and probably the reason why a possible alien life form how friendly it ever would be will not survive among humans societies!

At the 3DMAX, MAYA or other forums many people have exactly the same attitude against Lightwave and their users, sarcastic, mean and patronizing. From my perspective it resembles of small kids braggin´ about who´s dad is the strongest!

Couldn´t agree more on what you just wrote! Wise words though one can´t kill hate with hate!

... regards!

:thumbsup:


this forum used to be a cool place... but often I see the same regulars pathetically attempting to ridicule members again, this time, one who hasnt insulted anyone but only expressed his dissatisfaction for the software... Instead of trying to coax him back into a manner of understanding the situation and becoming less angry about his dilemma, you bash him...

You tried to help but he was still unhappy about it... so what !! but some of you think that gives you permission to mock him now????

ya I know, everyone is entitled to their opinion blah blah blah and its a free country...

but in the end, thats potentially one less LW user now...

even though every software has its problems, he still wont be using your beloved software with problems... and you guys didnt help that... IMHO

Exception
01-31-2009, 04:49 PM
like co-planar polygon reduction ...

Lw has this...

Anttij77
02-02-2009, 02:10 PM
got to admit that IS a pretty poor limitation.
not one to make me change apps but certainly not a good one to have in built by design.
this IMHO needs changing.
yeah there was a solution to this particular problem but not to all.

This is how Mental Ray's FastSkin and FastSSS work as well.
The SSS will only be present in areas the camera can see directly.

Frank_Geppert
02-04-2009, 02:48 AM
I have licenses of Modo and LW and I see no reason to give one tool up to use only the other one. I see Modo as a nice add-on to Lightwave. It offers some features that we dont have in LW, some better consolidated modeling tools, sculpting and 3d-painting. The real-time preview renderer is great. So you have some kind of FPrime already integrated in Modo. The OpenGL preview in the modeling viewport is just better, you see bump maps, specularity, displacement and more directly while modeling.

But I like the materials in LW more and LW is more stable. The renderer is a bit more black-box without a preview window but it is more powerful. We have animation there and fibers, physics, cloth, particles and much more features you will miss in Modo.

Again, dont give LW up, use Modo as an extension to LW! Both are good tools with advantages and disadvantages. There is no need to become a fanboy.

mike_stening
02-04-2009, 03:08 AM
This is how Mental Ray's FastSkin and FastSSS work as well.
The SSS will only be present in areas the camera can see directly.

fair point but surely somethinf to fix, and i would expect it in a "FAST" solution as it is quick and dirty, but a full SSS could be expected to have it, however this will only be noticeable in relfections so carefull though over use and scene and there will be no problem