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View Full Version : Why no NT compositor to go with LW and VT?



AbnRanger
01-24-2009, 01:22 AM
Why does Newtek not create their own Desktop compositor (competing with Fusion and Nuke) and leverage hardware the same way VT does?

Having a complete solution from end to end, with hardware accelerated video editing and compositing, and if Newtek is able to incorporate the new OpenCL standard for General Purpose GPU processing (now a common language for both card manufacturers...promoted by both), then you have hardware acceleration involved in each segment.

Imagine this for rendering in LW X:
Make sure to check out the portion where he renders out the Ferrari (toward the end of the video, at the 22:37 mark)...
http://eyeonfusion.vfxpedia.com/videos/Fusion6/teaser_01_fusion6_full.mov

Dexter2999
01-24-2009, 01:29 AM
I had almost said the same thing last week. It had entered my mind that it would be great if NT bought SHAKE from Apple. (It's not like they are using it.)

But NT is competing one enough fronts as it is. I'd rather see them buy out or partner with something like JANUS that makes them more attractive to work with high end compositing packages.

djlithium
01-24-2009, 01:51 AM
I would rather have them work more closely with Eyeon and tighten integration with Fusion5/6.
It's best to have NT focus on awesome 3D stuff while being able to import and export to the best compositing app out there (no, thats not nuke, thats not shake, ITS FUSION!)

AbnRanger
01-24-2009, 03:08 AM
I would rather have them work more closely with Eyeon and tighten integration with Fusion5/6.
It's best to have NT focus on awesome 3D stuff while being able to import and export to the best compositing app out there (no, thats not nuke, thats not shake, ITS FUSION!)I agree...although it's the priciest of the bunch, there is no doubt that Fusion is the the most well-rounded, feature-rich of the bunch. That GPU accelerated rendering (not just preview...it uses the GPU to accelerate the full render), has me convinced it's time to start learning it (PLE), and buy a copy when I can afford to.

Actually, I think Combustion, which I use now, is a better all-around compositor than Shake, but either one could be a nice acquisition.
Combustion has top-notch tools in just about every area...paint tools, rotoscoping (B-Splines and point grouping), Keying (Discreet and Diamond keyers), Color Correction (new Color Warper from the Flame, Flint and Inferno systems).
LW outputs to RPF format, and Combustion already has outstanding RPF-multi channel support (RPF has more channels than OpenEXR and has 16bit and 32bit float options)
It comes with a really good particle system, but it's due for an update to a true 3D system like Fusion's or the Trapcode Particular plugin for After Effects.
If Combustion had hardware accelerated capability, updated particles, and true 3D geometry handling, it could rival Fusion and manhandle the rest.

I think AD wants Toxic to be its next generation compositor, and feels Combustion isn't worth investing anymore development on at its pricepoint (they chose to bring it down from about $3k to >$1k a few years ago, where AE is). I'd like to see Newtek take Combustion off their hands, and develop it. After all, everyone who likes LW's text buttons (instead of icons) will like Combustion's UI (I like it better than the rest). Plus, it's the only Compositor on the market (except it's big brother, Toxic) that has a dual workflow...BOTH layers AND nodes.
Currently, it also has a feature that gives you a live link to 3ds Max's material editor (using a Combustion material...can use it in any channel slot), so you can paint ala BodyPaint on a Model either in the 3ds Max viewport or in Combustion's...and see a live update.

So, if Newtek bought Combustion, they could leave that capability intact and simply add a live link to a material node in LW, so you have live texture painting in Layout, using CB's full set of Paint tools.

I'd like to hear what NT has to say about this issue...

JBT27
01-24-2009, 03:18 AM
In some ways, you wonder how much more would be required to develop the Nodal system a little further to encompass comp, given that it's a 3D app already, what we're looking at is image-processing nodes, not a million miles away from some of Dpont's experimental work.

Just a thought ..... :)

Julian.

cresshead
01-24-2009, 03:58 AM
So, if Newtek bought Combustion, they could leave that capability intact and simply add a live link to a material node in LW, so you have live texture painting in Layout, using CB's full set of Paint tools.

I'd like to hear what NT has to say about this issue...

:agree:

yeah i like combustion...i'm still on version 2.1 but love the layout of it and it's easy to use.:thumbsup:

UnCommonGrafx
01-24-2009, 07:58 AM
Haven't seen this come up in ... two years now...
They've had the IP to do Quantel-like things for at least ten years now. SE is as close to a real-time compostor [Edit] as you'd want. (I know, Andrew, it isn't MEANT to be one. Alpha issues have ensured that.) And LW as your text, 3d and other asset genarator. Plus, it could be the engine for rendering, etc. as it would break SE's 8bit limit.

I'm a lot more mellow today about this prospect. First, the two sides would have to talk to each other. Then work with each other. Hope may spring eternal...

Captain Obvious
01-24-2009, 08:06 AM
I've done compositing in Lightwave a few times. There are a few things completely missing, of course, such as rotoscoping and good animation tools, but the actual comp-you-layers-together works surprisingly well by just lobbing everything onto a plane and using the node editor. It's not very good, mind you, but it's kind of fun how well it works. And with FPrime, it's quite fast!


It's best to have NT focus on awesome 3D stuff while being able to import and export to the best compositing app out there (no, thats not nuke, thats not shake, ITS FUSION!)
Eh, I don't like Fusion. It's not exactly fast (I'm running Fusion 5.something at work -- did they speed it up for version 6?), and has the dumbest keyboard/mouse usage ever. Seriously, LMB+MMB for zooming? What kind of a crackhead came up with that? If you tell me of a way to remap that into something useful, like oh I don't know, Shake's arbitrary zooming that behaves kind of like Modeler's. It zooms where you click, and actually doesn't give me RSI.

Titus
01-24-2009, 01:36 PM
I agree...although it's the priciest of the bunch, there is no doubt that Fusion is the the most well-rounded, feature-rich of the bunch. That GPU accelerated rendering (not just preview...it uses the GPU to accelerate the full render), has me convinced it's time to start learning it (PLE), and buy a copy when I can afford to.
.

Even if the render is GPU accelerated, it's a slow rendering.

AbnRanger
01-24-2009, 06:45 PM
Even if the render is GPU accelerated, it's a slow rendering.That's why I'd like to see Newtek take it and give it some rendering love....instead of AD letting it languish til it dies.

Lightwolf
01-24-2009, 07:07 PM
Eh, I don't like Fusion. It's not exactly fast (I'm running Fusion 5.something at work -- did they speed it up for version 6?)
What do you find slow? It at least outperforms AE by a hefty margin...


, and has the dumbest keyboard/mouse usage ever. Seriously, LMB+MMB for zooming?
Each to his own. I love it, great with a mouse or a tablet, and you can switch from zoom to pan with a single finger movement while you're in action moving the mouse... or zoom in/out by a fixed amount.
I suppose it's a matter of practice... but I've also spent months working in Fusion, and I wouldn't want to trade it (it certainly is more fun to use than LW can be, most of the time. I always look forward to comp gigs).

Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
01-24-2009, 07:53 PM
What do you find slow? It at least outperforms AE by a hefty margin...
Yeah, but AE is just pants! :D Just general loading, rendering, etc. You know, the usual stuff.




Each to his own. I love it, great with a mouse or a tablet, and you can switch from zoom to pan with a single finger movement while you're in action moving the mouse... or zoom in/out by a fixed amount.
How does it work with a tablet? I can't get it to zoom at all, except via the keyboard shortcuts (ctrl-1, ctrl-f). It only registers EITHER the MMB or the RMB for me when using my Wacom.

Lightwolf
01-25-2009, 04:03 AM
How does it work with a tablet? I can't get it to zoom at all, except via the keyboard shortcuts (ctrl-1, ctrl-f). It only registers EITHER the MMB or the RMB for me when using my Wacom.
You don't need the RMB, that's the context sensitive menue.
Otherwise:
MMB and hover the stylus: pan
MMB and the stylus on the table: zoom
So you can just keep the MMB pressed and move around by swiping either with or without contact of the stylus to the tablet.
I find that to be extremely conventient, especially for rotoscoping and similar tasks where you have plenty of controls on the view canvas.

Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
01-25-2009, 06:46 AM
Oh, right, I meant LMB, not RMB.

I guess the reason it doesn't work is that I always set my tables to click-n-tap for the extra buttons, so it can only register one of them at a time.

Lightwolf
01-25-2009, 06:50 AM
I guess the reason it doesn't work is that I always set my tables to click-n-tap for the extra buttons, so it can only register one of them at a time.
Ah, allright. Well, I suppose you could just set a different profile for Fusion.

The only changes I make in the wacom properties is assigning LMB, MMB and RMB to the tip, lower rocker, upper rocker - just like a mouse basically.

Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
01-25-2009, 05:02 PM
Setting up a Wacom:

Turn on "force proportions".
Set it to tap-to-click.
Set lower rocker to RMB, upper to MMB.

That's my setup. Oddly enough, tap-to-click isn't working in Vista. Haven't figured that one out yet...