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ScorpioProd
01-19-2009, 01:50 AM
Well, it's that time of year again. Time for my annual request for features in a theoretical SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB. If the title of this thread looks familiar, that's because it is. The title comes from my "Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2008" thread started just about exactly a year ago.

Surprisingly, there was no SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2008 or at all last year. And without that, only ONE of the requests in this thread was addressed by Newtek at all. That one being true QuickTime support in the current SpeedEDIT. Though frankly, as is pointed out in last year's thread, was that really a feature request or merely the proper completion of the QuickTime support that was claimed in SpeedEDIT at the time anyway.

Ah well, that was then and this is now. So now I will start my list, and feel free to compare it to my list from last year:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78404

1) XDCAM HD MXF and XDCAM SD MXF support. I have to put this one first for me, since I have now moved to XDCAM HD and XDCAM SD, and I can't use SpeedEDIT with these formats.

Let's take a look at a poll I conducted this time last year for this specific feature. My scientific poll CLEARLY shows that 33% of the respondants need XDCAM HD and XDCAM SD support. SpeedEDIT currently has NEITHER.

Here's the thread of the poll to prove it:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78362

2) Super Subprojects. Sub projects that have all the capabilities and adjustment controls as clips and show a mixed down audio waveform of what is inside of them.

3) Grouping of clips. Please don't confuse this with locking of clips, that's a different feature.

4) Filters that can be attached to clips.

5) Interpolated slow motion. Realize, this is needed not only for high quality slow motion, but also when changing frame rates.

6) Time code window dub for CLIP TIME CODE.

7) Improved capture module. Bigger, correct aspect ratio, WITH audio, time lapse, timed and still capture abilities.

8) Improved playback control response. VERY slow currently, try hitting "L" a few times when playing back and note the lag.

9) Masks. Allow filters and effects to work on REGIONS, like Bob's SoftFX can do.

10) Scrub bar selection improvement. Only grab the bar at the top??? That's SILLY. You should be able to grab it anywhere you can see it, and you should see it OVER all your clips, not hidden by them.

11) DVE improvements. Current DVEs do NOT work in true HD resolution. Current DVEs also do not support the alpha channel.

12) Finish VST support. There is no way to save custom presets into the VSTs like EVERY other VST host supports.

13) Travelling Mattes. For the new Digital Juice Swipes and other functions.

14) Organization ability for the ToolShed. We really need to be able to sort and have folders and import/export these settings.

15) Programmable shortcut keys for the ToolShed. (Actually programmable shortcuts for EVERYTHING in SpeedEDIT would be best.)

16) Easy scripting. One of the most powerful things I've found in Vegas Pro 8 is the ability to use normal Javascript or C# to create powerful automated functions/macros. I thought ToasterScript would offer this, but I haven't seen anything like this in SpeedEDIT.

If you looked at last year's thread, yes, you guessed it, all 16 of my requests are exactly the same a year later.

Let's take a look at another thread started a couple months after mine last year that expands on this further. It's also interesting seeing the contrasting predictions we have in it, from the very optimistic, such as Ted, predicting not only would we see SpeedEDIT 2.0 "shown" at NAB 2008, but that it would actually be shipping just a month or more later, to, well, my point of view that it would be "a lot" later, which proved sadly way more accurate.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81012

This thread is also interesting in that John Perkins agreed with all the feature requests. And Ted jokingly suggested this could put John out of work agreeing with us. Well... Do you see John Perkins taking part in the forums in the last so many months? Nope. No, Newtek didn't fire him, but he changed jobs, so he's no longer available to be the advocate for the users in engineering that he once was. That's a real shame, and a real problem for the users getting feature requests done in the future, IMHO.

OK, but before Steve can again pipe in that Newtek has added many features over the years, which I agree they did, I simply have to ask: "What has Newtek done for SpeedEDIT users lately?" That's really what matters. History and goodwill only last so long, when the users aren't getting the features they need to do their work.

Now then, for those, since I'm sure there must be some of you out there, thinking, "well, those feature requests have only been out there a year", let me bring you to another thread, started by me in July of 2007.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71461

All I asked for in that thread were three things:

1) TMPGEnc plug-in support.
2) Real-time Interpolated slow motion.
3) Subprojects that fully act as clips.

And yes, we did get TMPGEnc support eventually, thank goodness, since my tests showed issues with SpeedEDIT's native encoder. (Nope, I'm still not asking for that to be fixed, since I think that may be more difficult than all the features requested above, anyway, that's a bug, and as long as TMPGEnc support is there, I'm fine with that. Besides, some users don't even see the problem, so if it's good enough for them, who am I to judge for them, I'm not, I just know the level of quality I need.)

Well, now as always, I invite the rest of you to comment on any of these requests and add to them what you need.

As for will Newtek have ANYTHING for SpeedEDIT at NAB 2009? Your guess is probably as good as mine.

BTW, some of you may wonder why I even care. For the last year I totally stopped using SpeedEDIT since it can't support the XDCAM SD and XDCAM HD I work in. I don't even have it installed currently.

I care because I was an exclusively Newtek editor for 15 years. That's a long time, and I've always given Newtek credit for giving me the tools to start my business. These kind of core users, like many others and myself, should be important to Newtek. I can assure you many of us saved Newtek from having to answer a lot of tech support calls with our answers here, on other forums, and on mailing lists. But over the years, most of these power users have moved on. I could move on, but I like helping out with the still useful knowledge I have on my legacy Newtek products.

More importantly, if Newtek implemented these feature requests, or at least the show stopper ones that I need, I would certainly give SpeedEDIT another shot at being my NLE. Of course, the longer I am away from it, the less desire I have to go back to it, but as of right now, I'd still give it a shot.

Power users are passionate users. Passionate users of a product are important, without them, an ingenious product becomes a mere commodity.

Lightwolf
01-19-2009, 03:13 AM
Add locking of clips as well as tracks to your list and I'd fully agree.

Bonus points for an SDK that allows for third party support of (other) video boards.

Cheers,
Mike

UnCommonGrafx
01-19-2009, 06:23 AM
I love you, Eugene: such a dreamer!

I will take ten of those, please: I'm looking for an editor for use at school.

I will read the list another day. I'm just assured you'd have something that would make for the dream editor based on the toolset we know today. Amazing thought...

Hahaha, on the "I have a Dream" day!

Rich Deustachio
01-19-2009, 08:41 AM
I agree with everything on Eugene's list, although I might change the order of requests a little.

One note, I read the Tricaster threads as well and have start to notice that even Tricaster users use SE and are starting to ask for features! Wow, imagine that!

billmi
01-19-2009, 09:10 AM
For me, #2 tops the list - to the point that I don't care about grouping, or applying filters to individual clips if we can get full-featured sub-projects.

#13, I also consider a "must-have" feature - and it could take care of #9 if it worked with effects, or at least with super-subprojects.

And my additions:

Native AVCHD support - since I've got clients sending my AVCHD footage.

Adjustable edge blur on overlays (edge of the key, not edge of the frame.)

To #7 larger, correct aspect ratio is relatively easy - that's literally a matter of building a new skin, which I've already done - I'd add to that live vectorscope, waveform monitor and histogram. They don't even need to be live during capture, but if I could use them while setting up a shot that I'm recording straight to hard drive, that would be nice.

That said - I consider this a wish list for the future of SE, not something I in any way expect to see at NAB 09, I would be very, very surprised by any editing advancements coming before HD switching.

Dufusyte
01-19-2009, 09:40 AM
I like to wax philosophical in these threads.

SpeedEdit positions itself as a Speedy Editor, so it is less likely to support anything which requires intense processing which prohibits realtime playback (such as computationally intensive compositing tasks). SpeedEdit is best used (apparently) as merely an editor; other tasks such as keying, compositing, encoding, etc are best handled by external applications.

With this in mind, the important thing for SpeedEdit it to be able to properly import/export data to these external apps. In this regard, I salute the avi wrapper, as well as specific TMGEnc support, as excellent features in tune with the core SpeedEdit product positioning.

In this vein, it is important that SpeedEdit be able to correctly receive footage which was keyed by an external app. To this end, SE needs better alpha support. SE currently only supports Straight Alpha; SE needs to also support PreMultiplied Alpha (BlackMatte, since this is the most commonly used today). Support for Pre-multiplied WhiteMatte would also be nice, though it is less frequently encountered.

Also in this vein, improved support for still image sequences and support for a wider range of still image file formats is imperative.

Also essential to being a Speedy Editor, is comprehensive Keyboard Shortcut support. Every menu item should be accessible via a keyboard shortcut. The ToolShed items also should be accessible via user assigned keyboard shortcuts.

The nature of mouse-clicking in the interface also needs to be brought up to the level of Windows Standards, which is severalfold more Speedy than the current "Block of Wood (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71192)" interface model.

Whereas SpeedEdit boasts of being resolution independent, it is important the fix the bug where 3D Positioning Adjustments in subprojects are fubared when changing Project Resolution (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91215).

It appears there is something generally wonky with SubProjects as they currently stand, since SubProjects produce a number of anomalies:

All fades in Subproject gratuitously changed to 1 sec after Slip&Slide (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86081)
Project Backup makes duplicate copies of video clips inside SubProjects (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91110)

It looks like the code for SubProjects needs to be revisited, first to fix the anomalies listed above, and secondly to include the improvements which have been often previously requested (apply Effect to SubProject, etc).

Lightwolf
01-19-2009, 09:54 AM
I like to wax philosophical in these threads.

SpeedEdit positions itself as a Speedy Editor, so it is less likely to support anything which requires intense processing which prohibits realtime playback (such as computationally intensive compositing tasks).
...
In this vein, it is important that SpeedEdit be able to correctly receive footage which was keyed by an external app.
Well, make up your mind. It should either allow for computationally intensive compositing tasks, that would mean proper alpha support as well... or not.
After all, a pure editor wouldn't allow for alphas in sequences anyhow ;)

I don't agree in general though. SE supports background rendering - which it wouldn't need if it was realtime in all cases. And there's no reason not to leverage that technology.
Otherwise one might even grab a US$100 editor that has AVCHD support now.

Cheers,
Mike

Dufusyte
01-19-2009, 10:07 AM
I was thinking "Divide by Alpha" (Un-PreMultiply) was a pretty swift operation which would not inhibit realtime rendering. In fact, it could be an Effect which the user applies to a clip.

By computationally intensive compositing, I was thinking more of Blend Mode support, or sophisticated keying (with animated masks etc) built into SpeedEdit.

Pete Draves
01-19-2009, 10:31 AM
yes SE is a stand alone editor, but it has background rendering.
That sort of makes the more complex things not real time.

DO NOT keep changing the entire core with every point upgrade.
Then solicit support by Boris fx.

I am tired of being left out or to edit in several editors just to do one effect or fancy double alpha transition.

nuf said
Pete

Bobt
01-19-2009, 12:38 PM
Eugene -- ALL of them are long overdue --

SBowie
01-19-2009, 01:42 PM
OK, but before Steve can again pipe in that Newtek has added many features over the years, which I agree they did, I simply have to ask: "What has Newtek done for SpeedEDIT users lately?"Nah, that would have been true when I last wrote it, but - setting aside semantics (SpeedEDIT serves lots of users every day, but I know that's not what you meant) - I agree with John that a number of updates are highly desirable; and I also agree with those here who pointed out that the list has gotten a bit longer in the last year rather than shorter (from an outside perspective, at least). I even agree with Bob (I'm just an agreeable sort of guy). :D I'm sure anyone at NewTek would honestly admit an update is running later than hoped. I've commented elsewhere on why, so won't repeat it here.

I will quote Rich, though: "I read the Tricaster threads as well and have start to notice that even Tricaster users use SE and are starting to ask for features! Wow, imagine that!"

And that's exactly what I said in another thread. Some seem to think TC is an impediment to SE progress. I personally think that TC's proliferation provides more 'push' for SE growth, and will do so all the more in days ahead. Again, this is my personal feeling, not an official statement of any sort.

ScorpioProd
01-19-2009, 03:21 PM
I'm sure anyone at NewTek would honestly admit an update is running later than hoped. I've commented elsewhere on why, so won't repeat it here.

I will quote Rich, though: "I read the Tricaster threads as well and have start to notice that even Tricaster users use SE and are starting to ask for features! Wow, imagine that!"

And that's exactly what I said in another thread. Some seem to think TC is an impediment to SE progress. I personally think that TC's proliferation provides more 'push' for SE growth, and will do so all the more in days ahead. Again, this is my personal feeling, not an official statement of any sort.
I certainly respect Steve's opinion, but since I completely disagree with him in this case, I am going to elaborate.

Steve stated that one shouldn't think of SpeedEDIT as a stand-alone application, one should think of its development totally tied into TriCaster and VT as well, which both also use for their NLE.

Therefore, everything at Newtek being put into TriCaster HD instead of SpeedEDIT right now is a good thing for users in the long run.

The entire point, at least to me, of SpeedEDIT stand-alone was that it was supposed to be an INDEPENDENT application. It would no longer have the albatross of real-time in support of switching around its neck. This would let it implement more complicated features as users have been requesting. I certainly think Newtek would be able to provide these features IF SpeedEDIT didn't have the real-time or death requirement, but it does, and if the philosophy that Steve suggests at Newtek is correct, then it always will be that way, keeping SpeedEDIT LIMITED in the scope of its possible features.

This is a real problem for any SE NLE-only users.

I agree that TriCaster and TriCaster HD do/will make tons of money for Newtek, but if part of that money isn't going into a truly independent "dedicated SpeedEDIT development team", then no, I don't see a benefit for SE-only users.

ScorpioProd
01-19-2009, 03:41 PM
DO NOT keep changing the entire core with every point upgrade. Then solicit support by Boris fx.

OK, well, I can address this one personally.

I have been a beta tester for BorisFX.

I had the ear of the right engineer, and even the owner of the company, Boris himself.

I pushed the idea of BorisFX supporting SpeedEDIT. I really did. This was back in 2007. I even personally connected them up with Dr. Andrew Cross to help make it happen.

And they were interested. No reason not to grow their market by supporting as many NLEs as possible.

But once they looked at the SDK for SpeedEDIT, they lost interest and told me they didn't think it would be possible.

Now I'm not a programmer, so I can't judge the SDK myself, but you don't see any "standard" third-party developers jumping at the bit to develop for SpeedEDIT, do you? Even NewBlue talked about developing for SpeedEDIT back in 2006, and that never happened. It's my understanding that there are certain standard interfaces these companies need to work with SpeedEDIT, that simply aren't there in the SDK.

Perhaps Bob can comment on the SDK further from his actual experiences programming with it?

Meanwhile, yes, let's add a "17) Improved SDK for third-party plug-in and third-party I/O board use" to my list.

Pete Draves
01-19-2009, 04:13 PM
Yes Eugene I also beta tested for Boris. Also for speed Razor.
The biggest thing is the "hooks" for third party development are not there.
The hooks are pretty much the same for all of the other editors on the market.

As for real time and speed edit... I realize that the editor for vt and tc MUST be real time, but other fx should be able to be used with the disclaimer that they are not realtime. We need those fx and transitions as well although not for realtime playback.
This is why the sdk is so bad, it changes from update to update while the other editors work even through major upgrades.

Pete

Bobt
01-19-2009, 04:40 PM
I am on my famous train so I can't go into detail but the se sdk lacks many basic features that are needed to create a nice plugin. That's about all I can say quickly.

ted
01-19-2009, 05:03 PM
Great list Eugene.
I just got off my tractor and gotta take the wife bowling. :D I'll have to digest it better and follow-up.
Better slo-mo is among the top for sure.

SBowie
01-19-2009, 05:25 PM
The entire point, at least to me, of SpeedEDIT stand-alone was that it was supposed to be an INDEPENDENT application. It would no longer have the albatross of real-time in support of switching around its neck.I honestly don't recall that particular sentiment ever being expressed in those terms in the entire long period of demand for a 'standalone VT-Edit', Eugene.

What people did ask for over an over was 'VT-Edit for laptops', for portable use by NewTek system editors. And that's what we finally got. The notion that its development would become completely unglued from its roots runs counter the primary raison d'etre for most for the standalone app at the time.

To me, ripping out the realtime heart of SE would be a crying shame (now supplementing it in some fashion to support some non-realtime processes, that's something I could get behind). Your personal ambitions for SE might have differed from the majority of expressions - but my recollections are clearly a little different. (I'm also not saying SE's potential cannot ultimately encompass things beyond the original targets, though - that would be silly.)


if the philosophy that Steve suggests at Newtek is correct, then it always will be that way, keeping SpeedEDIT LIMITED in the scope of its possible features.First, let me emphatically state that I have not posted anything suggesting 'a philosophy at NewTek'. I'm just offering a few personal reflections, aspirations, and recollections.

Second, and again, I think quite a number of the things in the pipe are very, very cool indeed, and - rather than worrying that developing them in any way limits SE's potential - it is my very sincere and earnest hope that in due course they make it into SE in one form or another. And it takes no inside information to see why, in some cases, it could be a waste of time to work on certain aspects of an app when parallel developments might render that work obsolete.

You've identified what, once or twice (? ;) ) a few personal show stoppers in SE, given your workflow. Mayhaps later this may change, but at this very specific moment in time it really isn't very likely to, long threads or not. I expect that, as my Mom used to say, "It'll be done when it's done." Rehashing all of this minutae (or daily reminders of your showstoppers) doesn't really seem very productive. Someone may argue, 'It wouldn't be necessary to rehash it if my wishlist was fulfilled' - at which point I write the same post I did earlier and we begin an endless loop. But then, as I've written a few times - I'm a 'glass half-full' guy. :)

ScorpioProd
01-19-2009, 08:48 PM
Well, if that's all people really wanted, those many years ago, then yeah, I guess they got that. Was that really what people requested back before HDV even existed? Yes, it was, back then. You know how many years ago that was? Is that all the rest of you expect today from SpeedEDIT? Please everyone, comment, I could be totally wrong.

I NEVER once thought the concept of SpeedEDIT was as some kind of auxiliary editor for notebooks in support of a VT workstation back at the office. I was in the middle of all the excited conversations at NAB 2006 that said SpeedEDIT would be this glorious new NLE without limits that would take the independent filmmakers by storm with all its great features. This doesn't sound like your description to me. In fact, either John Perkins or Dr. Andrew Cross clearly stated during SpeedEDIT development that because it was the NLE on its own, it would get the latest developments FIRST, improvements that would later be rolled into the more complicated VT and TriCaster suites, which do NOT have NLEing as their primary raison d'etre.

Expectations should have been managed better by Newtek back then for what SpeedEDIT was really intended to be. So maybe you're right, especially when I remember a quote from Philip Nelson about the intended audience for SpeedEDIT. Ah well.

Sure, there would be parallel design, except it's going in the WRONG direction to logic. You don't get the NLE software from the live switcher, the live switcher should get the NLE software from the independent NLE. Going the direction you suggest, it's quite clear which application gets the short end of the stick.

As for me Steve, I'm done. I promise you I won't start a "Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2010" thread next year.

Rich Deustachio
01-19-2009, 10:27 PM
Thinking back I remember that the hopes of the "new editor" was that is was going to allow many of the requested items on our lists because it was being written from the ground up so we all thought this was NewTeks opportunity to eliminate the limitations that didn't allow the features we wanted.

After the long wait we found out this was not the case and SE/VT5SE still have the same limitations as before, not allowing us to obtain the needed features.

If it is possible to write in some/many of the requested features without rewriting from scratch again, I believe NewTek will figure out how to do it.

I also believe the future of SE depends on it.

SBowie
01-20-2009, 07:16 AM
In fact, either John Perkins or Dr. Andrew Cross clearly stated during SpeedEDIT development that because it was the NLE on its own, it would get the latest developments FIRST, improvements that would later be rolled into the more complicated VT and TriCaster suites, which do NOT have NLEing as their primary raison d'etre.And in the context of that time this proved to be true - for 'many of the requested items on our lists' ... long requested major features that involved a lot of work (HD support, for example). Not the entire list, certainly, but a substantial number. And even in later updates, SE standalone was the first beneficiary of updates (as you well know, having pointed out yourself numerous times that VT updates were running a step behind SE).

However, I seriously don't think anyone intended any such a general remark to be taken as a hard and fast rule, as if saying 'Some really cool core technology is in development for a sibling product; those engineers must now drop their project and come over to work on SE, wedge their work into SE and complete it there first... then, maybe, we will release them to go back to their normal duties'.

SE did add a number of important features, and it is untied from the hdwe., and it is definitely possible to 'write in some/many of the requested features without rewriting from scratch again'. And there's no reason at all that some great tech from a live switching system can't benefit a standalone NLE too. It has already done so many times, and I really, really hope it does so again - so your 'WRONG direction' argument falls flat Eugene, sorry. Moving fwd. on another project sometimes saves a lot of work or opens up new horizons in a different one. The simple fact is that the very best way to address a number of the things people repeatedly ask for often requires this approach. (If I gave specific examples, I'm afraid I'd have to kill you.)

If you can't wait, you can't wait, and everyone understands that - but I simply cannot subscribe to this particular argument ... even allowing for hyperbole. Sure, if everyone dropped everything else to concentrate on SE, it would doubtless advance more quickly. Maybe in short order it would become the only NLE in use on the planet. Maybe that would fully offset the losses from other products both existing and in the pipe. Maybe we wouldn't really miss any new features that wouldn't even be possible to contemplate for SE without parallel development. Even if that were my decision to make, though, (and as much as I'd personally like to see a new release of SE) I doubt I'd bet the farm on that plan. I am fully confident that many very vocal armchair CEO's - if they really had to sit where the decisions are made - would find that they were making exactly the same choices.

I'd state again that I'm sure everyone likewise wishes an update had come along sooner, or even was here today ... and that all the above is just my own perspective - but this is where we [/Loop]

joseburgos
01-20-2009, 07:54 AM
Wow like the list but I would add:
Fix the alpha problem and add premultiplied alphas
Ability to use any image format as a sequence or stand alone image
Better spline tools or spline tool shed wizards
Better HDRI format use or just exposure ability
AE plug-in support (hey we are wishing right)
LiveMatte type of keying for more control of the key
CG Post effects that can be added to a letter, word, line or page (snake, explode, rotate in, etc.)

Obviously my list relates more to animation.
Take care,

SBowie
01-20-2009, 08:03 AM
p.s. - although I have added disclaimers, thinking about the above I really wouldn't want anyone later converting personal opinion and speculative remarks into any sort of promise later ... so know this:

I'm not suggesting above any particular spectacular new tech from parallel projects is definitely going to appear in an SE update, nor even a full release version in any short order if ever. That it could well and hopefully will do so (and I do have a number of very specific notions in mind), sure - but development paths are full of bumps and twists. Things change, sometimes even at the last minute, so it would be a mistake for me or anyone else to infer specific assumptions based on what I wrote above.

[/invoke Mom]

rbartlett
01-20-2009, 05:34 PM
From my perspective, SpeedEDIT was about helping the otherwise unattended market reach meet the entrance qualifications for VT-Edit. Part of the more-for-less philosophy that has encouraged the R&D of high capability systems to have a smaller buy almost equal sibling.

Contrast to this, SpeedEDIT has provided the crown jewels. Yet this is of a product that hasn't had uplifts in all aspects of post-production. It has followed VT[5] which has had some developments in certain areas which haven't been high on the list of needs for everybody.

So there is still hope and need. The competition has sharpened their tools and the amount of headroom in the PCs we use today has allowed the annoyances of the non-realtime-all-of-the-time NLEs to noticeably dissipate.

NewTek has some proprietary marvels. As do ORAD and Brainstorm-Multimedia with network CG and tracking virtual-sets. Each vendor takes their line in slightly different directions.

To the initiating post on this thread. I've not seen anything listed that is contentious. I'd expect to see facilities in SpeedEDIT to better serve the LW animator. SpeedEDIT ought not to be falling short of the mark for bringing together 3D works into finished works.

We'll see when we see, and I enjoy being wrong. It currently looks like the software house is working very fast but gaining little ground compared to previous years of product output. I look to be inspired rather than appeased. I just know that inspirational works are entirely NewTek's preserve from their past performances.

xpycm
01-21-2009, 10:30 AM
...More importantly, if Newtek implemented these feature requests, or at least the show stopper ones that I need, I would certainly give SpeedEDIT another shot at being my NLE. Of course, the longer I am away from it, the less desire I have to go back to it, but as of right now, I'd still give it a shot...

Let's hope, it will all happen after this:
http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=52292

ScorpioProd
01-21-2009, 02:59 PM
Let's hope, it will all happen after this:
http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=52292
One can hope, but as Robert stated, the LW groups and video groups tend to operate rather differently from each other at Newtek.

More importantly, being an employee of Newtek has given Steve a much better feel for Newtek's internal thoughts than we users have, so I now see he was correct in the "intent" of SpeedEDIT.

Here's what Andrew says: "Our goal at that time was to do what the users and dealers were asking for, which was to unbundle the non linear editor from the VT suite and that was the primary focus of that effort."

Also, Andrew points out that "SpeedEDIT was not a re-write of VT-Edit", so that is a correction to what I and others have said in the past as well, though I'm sure we didn't get that idea from thin air at the time.

So I guess I really did overestimate the intent and goals of SpeedEDIT. :(

radams
01-24-2009, 04:01 AM
Hello all,

Eugene, Steve, etc....
I know it's been a long time...but let me wade in here a little.

First let me give some positive comments to Andrew and the Dev team at NewTek.

Speed Edit was a complete rewrite and part of the next generation code base that Newtek have been putting together...for the whole video platform.

That takes time...and when SE first appeared...that was amazing they got that far so soon.

Now thou...they've had some time...and there are still some huge holes in the workflows...that need some attention.

SE as a straight cuts editor...is great...the ability to work with multi resolutions...and being for the most part resolution independent...is wonderful...

But there needs to be much more.

There is a need to have something more than a balls to the wall cut ups editor...we need better post and finishing abilities as well...along with that we are needing to break that 8 bit color space barrier....

There is a need to NT to look past just video...
SE has the possibility to become an editor for ANY media base production...

ie: arena ribbon displays...or huge multidimensional LED displays, etc...

because SE can create and work with any kind of input or output resolution...that is a huge thing...

This would then also open up markets for all of us to help create content for....etc.

I've been waiting for an editor that will work with floating point color space as well...SE are you going to finally get into that ? it was part of where it was headed...but seems to have been stalled...time to see that completed.

With the advent of tape seeing it's last days...put more time into MXF and direct support for raw files.

I would love to see a RED RAw support...but I don't expect it any time soon.

Then there is the audio side of things...which does need some help...There are too many workflow and routing issues..and basic concepts here which I won't rehash...that still need some addressing.

One last thought thou.

The video/post world have so completely changed since SE started and came out.

Avid is on the ropes, Final Cut has marginalized the Editing and finish post for video and some films these days....Adobe's suite has positioned itself to tackle the online and other media markets...thou is till limited.

But there are still markets out there...the need for realtime is still there...but also there are needs to fit into specific workflows...from end to end.
For an expanded color space (with the new cameras, etc...)

I would like NT to take a new look at the whole video product direction...including SE...
the Nextgen..is way over due...thou maybe that's a good thing...since so much has changed....

But we need to stop thinking of media as SD, HD, etc...
we are now in a time of resolution and color space independence...heck...we are looking at the whole concept of 3D movies and even TV becoming more a reality...

NewTek...take another look passed where you are.
Look to where you see the markets and future going.

Re align your targets and development...
at least from an outsider...its looking like your a little out of step.

Cheers,

Richvideo
01-24-2009, 08:27 AM
Hello all,

Eugene, Steve, etc....
I know it's been a long time...but let me wade in here a little.

First let me give some positive comments to Andrew and the Dev team at NewTek.

Speed Edit was a complete rewrite and part of the next generation code base that Newtek have been putting together...for the whole video platform.

That takes time...and when SE first appeared...that was amazing they got that far so soon.

Now thou...they've had some time...and there are still some huge holes in the workflows...that need some attention.

SE as a straight cuts editor...is great...the ability to work with multi resolutions...and being for the most part resolution independent...is wonderful...

But there needs to be much more.

There is a need to have something more than a balls to the wall cut ups editor...we need better post and finishing abilities as well...along with that we are needing to break that 8 bit color space barrier....

There is a need to NT to look past just video...
SE has the possibility to become an editor for ANY media base production...

ie: arena ribbon displays...or huge multidimensional LED displays, etc...

because SE can create and work with any kind of input or output resolution...that is a huge thing...

This would then also open up markets for all of us to help create content for....etc.

I've been waiting for an editor that will work with floating point color space as well...SE are you going to finally get into that ? it was part of where it was headed...but seems to have been stalled...time to see that completed.

With the advent of tape seeing it's last days...put more time into MXF and direct support for raw files.

I would love to see a RED RAw support...but I don't expect it any time soon.

Then there is the audio side of things...which does need some help...There are too many workflow and routing issues..and basic concepts here which I won't rehash...that still need some addressing.

One last thought thou.

The video/post world have so completely changed since SE started and came out.

Avid is on the ropes, Final Cut has marginalized the Editing and finish post for video and some films these days....Adobe's suite has positioned itself to tackle the online and other media markets...thou is till limited.

But there are still markets out there...the need for realtime is still there...but also there are needs to fit into specific workflows...from end to end.
For an expanded color space (with the new cameras, etc...)

I would like NT to take a new look at the whole video product direction...including SE...
the Nextgen..is way over due...thou maybe that's a good thing...since so much has changed....

But we need to stop thinking of media as SD, HD, etc...
we are now in a time of resolution and color space independence...heck...we are looking at the whole concept of 3D movies and even TV becoming more a reality...

NewTek...take another look passed where you are.
Look to where you see the markets and future going.

Re align your targets and development...
at least from an outsider...its looking like your a little out of step.

Cheers,

If SE was a rewrite why the heck did they not add standard hooks in the code so we could have some sort of chance to use popular plug-ins directly in our SE NLE?

radams
01-24-2009, 11:54 AM
If SE was a rewrite why the heck did they not add standard hooks in the code so we could have some sort of chance to use popular plug-ins directly in our SE NLE?

They did in a limited way....and remember most plugins were not designed for realtime performance...

Along with that many plugin architectures are proprietary..ie Adobe: which requires an additional licensing agreement....

I would love to see OFX ...but that is more for compositors...and is still in its infancy...and not designed for realtime. NT is commited to making as much realtime as possible...thus the reason many of us use NT video products...

But after saying all that...what plug-ins are your wishing SE to have...remember that it is also up to the plug-in developer to support SE not just that NT is support them....

Yes I would love for magic bullet suit, trapcode, colorista, etc...be usable in SE...I know that some would love to see Boris...(thou that is more up to Boris).

There are a host of others...but understand that time and resources are limited...I agree that like Bob as stated...there needs to be an updated and improved SDK...but that isn't the whole story...plug-in developers need to also see SE as a market...at this time they don't.

Just my 2 cents. (which is worthless in todays economy)

Cheers,

radams
01-24-2009, 12:14 PM
Now you guys got me going....

There are several things on Eugene's list that I concure with...

especially the control and working with sub-projects /groups, etc...

That there are issues with the workflow that need to be ironed out...to complete it, streamline it, and improve it overall to be a proper end to end solution...at this time SE thou the fastest cut up editors on the planet...is slowed down...to a crawl, dealing with everyday post and finish...and at times requires to many workarounds...
Even for LW users...which shouldn't be.

Since NT does have such a hold on TV FXs, etc...

Better integration with LW...and with (Eye On's Fusion)...
Would only benefit everyone...and make SE a got to have...for any FX artist...or production/ad agency, etc...

Add into that adding floating point color space....will then push SE into the highend film/ad projects...

Being able to work with 4:4:4....and with some additional hooks....SE could be the go to app for any media/display work...for digital signage (which is starting to explode)...etc...

Think about how we use media these days...abd tomorrow

We need to be able to work and deliver thru the internet,
thru DVD's -Blue Ray (I hate Blue-Ray)....but our viewing and delivery have completely changed....
Even Movies are being delivered digitally for projection...and in 3D...

We've all been pushing to get things we used to need...or have been driven into from old pracitices...

Things are changing...even in this economic slow down.
Avid is on the ropes, etc...

It is less about how did we do things 5 years ago....
Adobe is the one who've I got to give some credit to.
They've looked ahead...and gave up the finish post to Apple's Final Cut....they are now squarely focused on business, and media production...with the internet...and mobil devices...are they there yet...no...but this is the kind of strategic planning NT needs to look more into. To open markets and compete...

NT from the start has been one of the few companies trying to give us the creators cost effective tools to make our vision into a reality....or those of our clients.

Now everything has changed in our production world...
tools, price points...the commodities that Apple and Adobe have made things (Hard to make a living with a limited market).....

I think that instead of pushing NT for things...
It might be helpful for us and them to better define our needs now and the future...as to why we need things...what are our workflows and things that make it difficult to achieve our's and our customer's vision.

Steve has made some good points...that no one tool etc...can do it all....then we need better workflows into and out of SE to help us deal with it.

Cheers,

ScorpioProd
01-24-2009, 02:10 PM
With respect Ray, Andrew stated this very week on the VTNT, in both an original statement and a revision to it: "SpeedEDIT was not a re-write of VT-Edit; I do not think that I have ever represented that it was."

And from the user's point of view, I think most of us can see it wasn't a rewrite based on the legacy limitiations that are still in it.

Were there underlying changes, sure there were. Does that currently affect the user experience? Beyond HD, no it does not.

SpeedEDIT has independence in resolution and frame rates, but does it have it in formats? No, it doesn't. Other modern NLEs support as many formats and more than SpeedEDIT does. Formats have become the new criteria that independence is needed in. New formats seem to pop up every week.

It's good to know what we need in the future, when the future can be predicted, but I think many of us need the features of your average NLE in the now. My work is done now, not in the future. In the past, Newtek has been bitten before by trying to design too far into the future. Remember the hard drive limitations hit in Newtek products in the past? Sure, eventually hard drives caught up, but for a long time, the limitations of any one part of the chain kept Newtek products held back. This is probably why we saw a TriCaster HD prototype demostrated at NAB 2006, but we don't see it announced till NAB 2009 when the supporting capabilities and demand are finally there. Hopefully we all did a lot of work and made a lot of money in the now between NAB 2006 and NAB 2009.

Oh, and BTW, welcome back to the forums! :D

radams
01-24-2009, 02:39 PM
Hi Eugene,

Thanks for the welcome back.

As per your comments...I haven't read Andrews comments on VTNT...so I can't comment on them.

But from my recollection...from the beginning of SE.
It was stated that SE was part of the transition to the NextGen products for NT. That it was a new codebase.
and that this was just the start of things to come.

Do you remember that ?

I agree that file formats are an issue that NT needs to address in regards to supporting additional video/media formats...thus my comments on MXF and Raw.

There is a revolution going on with cameras and formats...including the new Cannon and Nikon DSLRs (not just with RED).

And my suggestions and push for rethinking is just that...the way we used to do things is changing...some things will stay the same...and others won't.

Does SE need to be and end to end solution...YES.
Are there holes in it now...YES.

But how these get resolved...along with where are we and NT needing to go...is up to be evaluated.

both on their part and ours.

I know where I would like to see them take their whole product line...but that doesn't mean that is where they wish to take it...

Remember...you, I and many others were wrong in regards to Tricaster...

Cheers,

Richvideo
01-24-2009, 03:13 PM
They did in a limited way....and remember most plugins were not designed for realtime performance...

Along with that many plugin architectures are proprietary..ie Adobe: which requires an additional licensing agreement....

I would love to see OFX ...but that is more for compositors...and is still in its infancy...and not designed for realtime. NT is commited to making as much realtime as possible...thus the reason many of us use NT video products...

But after saying all that...what plug-ins are your wishing SE to have...remember that it is also up to the plug-in developer to support SE not just that NT is support them....

Yes I would love for magic bullet suit, trapcode, colorista, etc...be usable in SE...I know that some would love to see Boris...(thou that is more up to Boris).

There are a host of others...but understand that time and resources are limited...I agree that like Bob as stated...there needs to be an updated and improved SDK...but that isn't the whole story...plug-in developers need to also see SE as a market...at this time they don't.

Just my 2 cents. (which is worthless in todays economy)

Cheers,

Hi,
Fast is good but polished is needed in some cases.
I don't think that many would take issue if SE had two modes
Real time and render mode if using 3rd party plug in filters like Trapcode, Magic bullet, etc.
In other posts it has been said that some of the main Plug-in developers did look to port to our system then they looked at the SDK's and saw no standard hooks to work with and they said goodbye.

ScorpioProd
01-24-2009, 05:38 PM
But from my recollection...from the beginning of SE.
It was stated that SE was part of the transition to the NextGen products for NT. That it was a new codebase.
and that this was just the start of things to come.

Do you remember that ?

Oh yeah, that's how I and others remember it as well. That's why it surprised me when Andrew said it wasn't so.

And yes, I never expected the TriCaster to be such a cash cow, and good for Newtek that it is. Newtek just about created an entirely new market with the TriCaster.

ted
01-24-2009, 05:54 PM
And yes, I never expected the TriCaster to be such a cash cow, and good for Newtek that it is. Newtek just about created an entirely new market with the TriCaster.

I honestly don't think NewTek did either. Then it busted wide open in the sports market and they had to really step up development on tools to support the industry.
I see it as a mixed blessing. No doubt development on VT & SE took some stutters, but TriCaster has also made new features available for VT especially.
I know that the revenue from TC has allowed NewTek to add people which also helped VT-SE.

It's like Microsoft's success in various later products come back to help the initial products. There might be growing pains, but it's better than not growing enough to support the initial products.

doc debolt
01-29-2009, 08:07 AM
Along with the super subprojects, etc, etc......lockable clips, I would really like to see some better file management tools - a simple "Replace Clip with" would be very nice - i don't know how many times i have had to go through the spreadsheet view and replace every single instance of a clip......

the slow motion - that would be very nice as well - that has bit me on a number of occasions......

a few CG bug fixes would be nice as well

All in all though, i don't do any HD editing right now(although it will be coming this next year)mostly SD editing - but this last year i decided to try alternate editing software, to see if i could find something that allowed me to edit as fast and as well as SE.......vegas, edius, premiere, avid......tried a plethora of them and still kept coming back to SE to post the job......

I like the true multicam in Edius, but sync-ing up the clips was not near as easy as in SE.....vegas has 3rd party support and a large base of users writing scripts and sharing them, closer, but still a wierd workflow for me......premiere, Ugh, avid, Double Ugh......

anyway, back to the grind - 3 shows that i have to post today....just saw the thread and thought i would weigh in.

Doc

ixlor8
02-01-2009, 08:57 AM
As we all have seen in the news. The ecomomy has slowed and businesses are doing what ever possible to generate sales.

Many companies are investing R & D money in areas that will provide the greatest return on investement. Companies are dropping low volume sales items and low profit items.

Innovation and product designs will shape the market going forward. In today's world, brand loyality is question with every purchase.

Marketshare will follow the manufacturers that can capture the customer true needs in product being offered.

Yes - I would like to see a new Speed Edit 2.0, but I do not want the software to be dropped either. I am willing to wait for the new release. Others will find they can not be productive with the current software based on client needs and equipment being used.

I would like to see SpeedEdit 2.0 in the future too.

ScorpioProd
02-01-2009, 05:37 PM
Very true, and really, we have no idea how the recession may have affected Newtek.

Sure, TriCaster is a big success, but who knows how the creation of it was actually funded. That can come back to bite a company in this economy.

As for SpeedEDIT, it won't go away, if for no other reason than TriCaster needs a basic editing program in it.

Verlon
02-02-2009, 01:47 AM
At this point, any news would be welcome.

SBowie
02-02-2009, 05:44 AM
At this point, any news would be welcome.Verlon, I don't think you're on the VTNT list, so perhaps this 'clipping' from a recent post by Dr. Andrew Cross will be of interest to you:

"SpeedEDIT development has not stopped, and we continue to develop it actively ... our goal is to continue to innovate and make an application that clearly provides a different editing experience from others; if you look at SpeedEDIT today it clearly achieves that and we have every intention of furthering this ... and YES ... that means implementing new features ... some that other apps already do ... so which they do not"

Verlon
02-02-2009, 07:18 AM
You're right. I am not on that list, and this is news to me. I wish the SE guys were more active on this forum.

ScorpioProd
02-02-2009, 12:53 PM
Of course, do consider, Steve IS a REAL Newtek employee nowadays, so he counts.:hey:

He's the only Newtek employee actively participating in these forums lately, since their forum participation overall went down a lot in the last year.

Anyway, as for this thread I started, it has served its purpose. There is certainly interest from users in new features. As for a what and when from Newtek on it, who knows.

I would hope there would be an official statement from Newtek at NAB 2009 on future SpeedEDIT features.

I definitely feel that NAB is an important decision point for a number of us regarding our future with SpeedEDIT.

It's in Newtek's hands now, and we'll all see the result in 2.5 months, one way or another.

Verlon
02-22-2009, 11:38 PM
I didn't realize he was a real NT guy.

I just thought he was very helpful. Lesson learned I suppose.

SBowie
02-23-2009, 06:43 AM
He's the only Newtek employee actively participating in these forums lately, since their forum participation overall went down a lot in the last year.I'm probably just the only one addicted to the forums. ;)

I 'arrive' at work a few hours before the gang, don't have to go out for lunch or down the hall to grab a coffee, and often work after supper and on weekends - so when I need to give my brain a moment or two out from my duties I'll pop in here to see what's going on. That said, as a rule I don't speak for NewTek in here or anywhere else ... just 'one of the boys'.

joseburgos
02-23-2009, 06:53 AM
I'm probably just the only one addicted to the forums. ;)

I 'arrive' at work a few hours before the gang, don't have to go out for lunch or down the hall to grab a coffee, and often work after supper and on weekends - so when I need to give my brain a moment or two out from my duties I'll pop in here to see what's going on. That said, as a rule I don't speak for NewTek in here or anywhere else ... just 'one of the boys'.

Yes you are and it is refreshing :)
Hope you don't get a lot of flack over it because as Eugene says, you do interact the most or better put, your interaction has not changed since becoming a Newtek employee :thumbsup:

SBowie
02-23-2009, 07:10 AM
... better put, your interaction has not changed since becoming a Newtek employee :thumbsup:Oh, sure it has - I now try even more earnestly to find polite ways to deal with someone who I suspect is probably only pretending to be an adult. (If I occasionally take the gloves off a bit when 'playing' with those who have been around longer, it can be viewed as affection, not malice.) ;)

ScorpioProd
02-23-2009, 01:12 PM
Of course Steve has changed since being assimilated, EVERYONE does. :)

Verlon
02-23-2009, 02:07 PM
Oh, sure it has - I now try even more earnestly to find polite ways to deal with someone who I suspect is probably only pretending to be an adult. (If I occasionally take the gloves off a bit when 'playing' with those who have been around longer, it can be viewed as affection, not malice.) ;)

Who around here pretends to be an adult? Why?

More importantly, why would anyone around here BELIEVE anyone was an adult?

All I admit to is having survived enough days without respawning or reincarnating to be eligible to chase women, vote, and buy booze. Beyond this, no warranties are expressed or implied.

SBowie
02-23-2009, 03:52 PM
Who around here pretends to be an adult? Why?I know your post was tongue in cheek, and I've never seen a case where anyone in this thread behaved in a manner I think is objectionable ... but since it has come up, here's a partial quote form the forum moderation policy:


The NewTek Discussion Forums are not a free speech zone, they are for professional and civil discourse regarding NewTek products by NewTek users.

The following items are not considered professional or civil discourse allowed on these forums:

* Off-topic and controversial subjects such as Religion and Politics
* Comments of an "off color" nature inappropriate for viewing by minors
* Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature
* Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members
* Promotional messages and material for competing products

Those who are unable to keep their posts on topic, unable to maintain responsible civil conversation with others or who have no purpose on the NewTek forums other than to promote competing products will have their accounts removed.

I think these rules are entirely reasonable, and any community which routinely ignores them will quickly become a very unpleasant and unproductive place. (Had I written them, I'd have extended the "Personal attacks" prohibition to include all members, not just staff). No-one's input is so valuable that it gives them license to treat others like ... errrr .... "carp".

ScorpioProd
02-23-2009, 07:29 PM
Just eight weeks left till we see if this thread served any purpose or not. :seicon:

SBowie
02-23-2009, 08:09 PM
Of course Steve has changed since being assimilated, EVERYONE does. :)Sleep tight, Eugene. (Muwahahahahahahah!)

http://records.viu.ca/~soules/medi402/walker/borg1.GIF

Verlon
02-24-2009, 12:09 AM
Hey, if assimilation by Newtek comes with a paycheck, I could sign up. Maybe I could get some real inside scoop information, too.

billmi
02-26-2009, 10:36 AM
Sleep tight, Eugene. (Muwahahahahahahah!)


Time for an avatar update.

joseburgos
02-26-2009, 10:40 AM
lol
Good one :)

SBowie
02-26-2009, 11:07 AM
hehehehehehe - excellent!

csandy
02-28-2009, 09:52 AM
Steve the borg. LOL Great work Bill! Lightwave?

Quiet1onTheSet
02-28-2009, 10:01 AM
Steve the borg. LOL Great work Bill! Lightwave?
Ahhhh-haaaaa! Steve's facial profile in that pic particularly invited such whimsical tampering. Photoshop or Aura would be my guess...

billmi
02-28-2009, 03:11 PM
Yep, just a minute in Photoshop. Steve's head was at nearly the same angle as one of the Borgs so it was just a cut and paste of the headgear.

ScorpioProd
03-21-2009, 01:28 PM
Just four weeks left till NAB Show 2009.

Then we shall see what the future of SpeedEDIT holds or doesn't hold. :seicon:

SBowie
03-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Or not .. oh wait, didn't we already do this thread? ;)

rs402931
03-21-2009, 07:20 PM
if nothing new by NAB 2009.....I say we cancel All Their million dollar retention bonus's at NEWTEK :D

ScorpioProd
03-21-2009, 09:35 PM
The thread had rather derailed in its last page, so I felt the need to put it back on track. :hey:

And in total seriousness, with the lack of development visible by the end users of SpeedEDIT in the last year, I really do feel NAB Show 2009 will be an important decision point on SpeedEDIT.

SBowie
03-22-2009, 06:29 AM
Just making it clear that your timeline is based on your personal criteria, Eugene, not something NewTek has specifically said about NAB. (We've previously covered this, but I wouldn't want someone who arrived late and read only the last couple of posts to get the idea anything had been promised in connection with NAB. ).

billmi
03-22-2009, 11:45 AM
The thread had rather derailed in its last page, so I felt the need to put it back on track.

So, to merge the two threads together, I expect to see announcements at NAB as to how Borg implants will greatly increase SpeedEdit productivity through a more efficient man-machine interface.

More realistically, seeing how SE was originally shown at NAB well before it was a working product, I hope we get a taste of some of the features we can expect in SE's next releases.

ScorpioProd
03-22-2009, 02:03 PM
Just making it clear that your timeline is based on your personal criteria, Eugene, not something NewTek has specifically said about NAB. (We've previously covered this, but I wouldn't want someone who arrived late and read only the last couple of posts to get the idea anything had been promised in connection with NAB. ).

Of course, Steve. We all know Newtek never promises anything with regards to SpeedEDIT.

It's up to everyone to judge the development of SpeedEDIT as it pertains to their own needs, as always.

SBowie
03-22-2009, 02:36 PM
Of course, Steve. We all know Newtek never promises anything with regards to SpeedEDIT.If I didn't know better, I'd think you were pulling my chain Eugene. ;)

We both know there are a few SE-related promises that have yet to be fulfilled, so maybe (who knows?) the feeling is that adding new ones before they are would be inappropriate.

Verlon
03-23-2009, 05:52 AM
"The SpeedEdit Update Patch: We may not have much in the way of news, but we're still doing better than the 3D Arsenal Update with Sports Ammo Pack."

I still long for the day to see both of those updates AND Core available to me.

ScorpioProd
03-23-2009, 11:52 AM
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were pulling my chain Eugene. ;)

We both know there are a few SE-related promises that have yet to be fulfilled, so maybe (who knows?) the feeling is that adding new ones before they are would be inappropriate.

Who, me? :D

That's a valid point, but based on the time elapsed since those statements, I really wouldn't consider ANY of the old SE-related statements as "promises".

If you're thinking the lack of fulfillment of those "promises" would make users take any new "promises" with a rather large grain of salt, I think that is another valid point, and a possible reason for Newtek to not make any new "promises".

Equally important, in the time since the "promises" were made I would question if they are even the highest priority for the users anymore. Times and needs change, and frankly, I think my list here, with all the input of the members of this list, is the most recent and up-to-date survey of the actual USER needs.

If Newtek is operating on a "promise" from long ago without current user input on desired features, I would recommend they reassess that plan.

donx
03-23-2009, 09:54 PM
After reading many of your posts, Eugene. I am of the impression that you are not using SE for editing although are very knowledgeable of the programs features and lacking promised features. You are a good resource for comparing editing applications as you have apparently used many of them.
On the other hand, me, as a naive newbe to SE am sailing along and getting everything that it offers as a bonus. I haven't pushed it's limits obviously and am enjoying playing in the SE yard. Maybe someday I will reach it's limits and move on to other software or wish SE had more features.
For now... :) I am in bliss even though my post has no point, I'm listening and learning.

ScorpioProd
03-23-2009, 11:07 PM
Nope, I'm not using it. I would like to use it for some projects if it could support Sony XDCAM MXF files, but it can't. :(

Depending on what you use it for, I'm sure it can be quite useful. It's just, I really don't consider most of the things I do to be that complex of an editing task, so when I find shortcomings in it, that rather surprises me.

What seems like simple stuff, like being able to group audio tracks together after you offset them in time to sync them up. Basic features like that, missing in a professional NLE is bizarre to me.

I know, SpeedEDIT is only a tool, I shouldn't be that passionate about it, it's just I feel it has so much unrealized potential.

Ah well, back to work, SpeedEDIT will be what it will be, nothing more, nothing less.

Rich Deustachio
03-24-2009, 11:09 AM
I read an article in Videography Magazine about the upcoming NAB09 and in the NewTek section only a mention of 3Play and Tricaster, nothing about SE or VT5 so I wouldn't get any hopes up.

wvp
03-25-2009, 07:04 PM
donx,
The bigger issue is not so much specific features, but the general support of the editing apps. After VT4, VT5 was released long after "promised". It was delayed to add new switching features and since then Newtek has focused on Tricaster and the switching / live business.
So whatever features, fixes people are looking for in the editing apps, well there is no official word on when or even if anything is in the works.
This is what the real issue is. If SE does what you want right now, great. IF at some point it does not, there is no official word on when or even if an update is coming.

SBowie
03-25-2009, 07:25 PM
... well there is no official word on when or even if anything is in the works. This is what the real issue is. If SE does what you want right now, great. IF at some point it does not, there is no official word on when or even if an update is coming.Actually, there has been official word on *some* things that are in the works, and it has been re-confirmed several times that work is ongoing ... but admittedly the 'when' has not been established and has already dragged on longer than expected.

Rich Deustachio
03-25-2009, 10:38 PM
That is why most SE/VT5 users feel that more effort is being put into Tricaster than the editors. Plenty of new products and updates for Tricaster but man it's been forever coming for SE/VT5.

SBowie
03-26-2009, 07:32 AM
... but man it's been forever coming for SE/VT5.I don't disagree with that.

csandy
03-27-2009, 08:12 PM
This won't seem off topic if anyone remembers what I'm talking about. Has anyone on this thread ever been a member of Apple's long defunct eWorld? It was essentially an Apple clone of AOL for Macintosh users. If you ever looked through the support forums, or posted anything there yourself, you would have been given a lesson on manufacturer-run discussion forums. This forum by NewTek way-past-the-Left Coast-liberal in comparison, but some of the structured PR is similar. That's a compliment. I haven't before seen, or seen since a better team at managing user generated comments and content. It was brilliant. I say that as someone with a PR degree who's given it some study.

Hmmm.... I feel like I had a point when I started typing this. :foreheads

ScorpioProd
04-05-2009, 10:58 PM
Yippee! Just two weeks left till we can all see what Newtek has been up to lately! :)

I expect they'll have a great show with their new products, with or without any SpeedEDIT announcements.

Lots of interesting stuff coming at NAB Show from a number of companies, not to mention companies launching new products just in the NAB Show timeframe without actually being there.

Some companies have even been quietly hiding clues! Sony Creative Software, for instance. They haven't mentioned ANYTHING anywhere about a Vegas Pro 9, but what does one find if one blows up an image of their software boxes in the invitation e-mail for their NAB party? One finds a box that says "Vegas Pro 9"! :)

csandy
04-06-2009, 11:52 PM
You sure do push Sony a lot for a NewTek forum.

ScorpioProd
04-07-2009, 12:17 AM
I look at it this way. I have bought plenty of Newtek products over the years. I've had Newtek products since 1992. They were a VERY important part of my success.

When they're being developed and updated, they can lead the world, they certainly have in Newtek products in the past. And they certainly do in Newtek products of the present and future like the TriCaster line.

Choosing between a Newtek TriCaster and a Sony AnyCast? No question. I would pick a Newtek TriCaster.

But if a product is left to stagnate, well, other products will be coming along and leaving it behind, especially in a very commodity driven market like NLEs.

Can any user actually consider a product released over two years ago with no major update not to be stagnation?

If you don't know what other companies (Sony, GV, Adobe, Apple) are doing, they can drive right on by. Knowledge is power.

But don't worry, as I promised, this is the last "Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 20xx" thread I'll ever start. And this one will be done soon, cause once NAB Show 2009 is over, so's this thread. :)

csandy
04-07-2009, 12:43 AM
Oh... believe you me. I fully understand where you're coming from. I'm new to this forum but have been in the game a long, long time.

I'm currently dabbling with a cross section of the NewTek product line (VT, TriCaster, SpeedEdit) and have personally run into many of the challenges expressed in this forum by you and others.

I think NewTek makes some really good products and in many cases has an attractive price point.

But I also believe NewTek has to meet some challenges to remain successful in a highly competitive and rapidly changing market.

That's a loaded statement that I don't care to elaborate on - but you've been around for a while and exhibit a good deal of common sense so you can build your own story.

I do think that the Q&A published by Mr. Plant last year http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=690603 laid out a reasonable and realistic product deployment strategy.

In a nutshell this strategy employs using revenue from products in high demand to offset the cost of research and development, staff, and marketing for future products. There are few better positions to be in than having the ability to produce your own operating capital.

This strategy has been alluded to earlier in this thread. Sell lots of hot product; use the revenue to jump start other hot products and expand your customer base.

Does SpeedEdit fit into this strategy? Only NewTek knows whether the product still makes sense to them. In the meantime other users like you, Eugene, will be asking themselves whether SpeedEdit still makes sense to them.

Soon enough NewTek will speak, or the market will speak for them. So life goes.

ted
04-08-2009, 09:45 PM
csandy, very true. Having multiple product lines is always a challenge for a company.
I think the TriCaster market exploded even faster than NewTek expected and that's a great position for a company to be in. I am sure some of the resources and technology will benefit VT-SE as Jim expressed. But I too would like to see more happening.
Hopefully NAB will have some announcements for VT-SE as well.

ScorpioProd
04-09-2009, 12:12 AM
TriCaster was and is, as said to me by Tim J. himself, the "low hanging fruit" that it made sense to go after, and I agree completely.

As for the future of SpeedEDIT, well, it won't go away.

At the least, a basic editor is needed for a product like the TriCaster, and SpeedEDIT is what its NLE module is based on.

Beyond that, I don't know. If you look at VT, VT is greater than the sum of its parts, so SpeedEDIT fits well as the NLE in that.

As for SpeedEDIT stand-alone, THAT is the real weakness, since there isn't anything else there to "balance" any shortcomings in SpeedEDIT. No DVD or Blu-ray authoring workflow to completion, either.

vncnt
04-11-2009, 07:06 AM
Having multiple product lines is always a challenge for a company.


I think multiple products enables Newtek to allocate developers to tasks that have a high priority and to fill the gaps with tasks that need less attention.

With the development of Core I don't expect a lot of v2 development for SpeedEdit.
Maybe some minor v1.x updates.

A future version of SpeedEdit v2 could even benefit from the lessons learned with Core.

Lightwolf
04-11-2009, 07:14 AM
I think multiple products enables Newtek to allocate developers to tasks that have a high priority and to fill the gaps with tasks that need less attention.

With the development of Core I don't expect a lot of v2 development for SpeedEdit.
Maybe some minor v1.x updates.

Those are completely different development teams (3d/Core and the video related stuff).
Now, Tricaster, 3Play, VTNT vs. SpeedEdit in any combination... that's more like it.

Cheers,
Mike

ScorpioProd
04-11-2009, 02:38 PM
Those are completely different development teams (3d/Core and the video related stuff).

Exactly, for example, looking at the keyframing systems in LW versus SE, it's like, the same company made this? Really? The different modules of VT even don't seem like the same company. There is something to be said for Adobe's style of if you know one Adobe apps convention, you know them all.



Now, Tricaster, 3Play, VTNT vs. SpeedEdit in any combination... that's more like it.
It would have been nice if the "dedicated video development team" had meant exclusive to SpeedEDIT, as some took it to mean, but that's not what was actually meant.

I don't realistically expect anything to be announced on SpeedEDIT next week, but one can always hope. :)

For the VT people, I don't expect any VT news, either.

I only expect to hear about TriCaster HD, 3PLAY, and Core. Which for one NAB Show, is actually a lot for Newtek to launch.

Lightwolf
04-11-2009, 03:03 PM
I don't realistically expect anything to be announced on SpeedEDIT next week, but one can always hope. :)
It would be about time though...


I only expect to hear about TriCaster HD, 3PLAY, and Core. Which for one NAB Show, is actually a lot for Newtek to launch.
I doubt they'll show much of Core at NAB. It's too early and also not the right crowd at NAB (at this stage it would imho only make sense to show to a Siggraph crowd at most). Then again, what do I know...

Cheers,
Mike

billmi
04-13-2009, 01:01 PM
I only expect to hear about TriCaster HD, 3PLAY, and Core.

Exactly what I'm expecting, though I'm not expecting much attention focused on Core.

robewil
04-16-2009, 02:08 PM
Experience 3PLAYT, a multi-channel, HD/SD, ISO recording, replay device and the TriCaster line including a preview of TriCaster model XD300 a high-definition, portable, live production and streaming appliance.

Looks like Eugene was right...again :D

SBowie
04-16-2009, 02:34 PM
Actually, I think Steve was right ... :D


I wouldn't want someone who arrived late and read only the last couple of posts to get the idea anything had been promised in connection with NAB.

robewil
04-16-2009, 02:54 PM
Just because I hadn't posted earlier does not mean I arrived late. :D

SBowie
04-16-2009, 03:27 PM
Yes, well ... I did write that about a month or more ago, so take it with a grain of salt ;)

p.s. - this is not to say that one should necessarily expect to hear nothing about SE, either. We'll all know for sure next week.:thumbsup:

ScorpioProd
04-17-2009, 03:08 AM
p.s. - this is not to say that one should necessarily expect to hear nothing about SE, either. We'll all know for sure next week.:thumbsup:
Well, that may depend on one's definition of "nothing"...

We'll see in three days. You gonna be there, Steve?

SBowie
04-17-2009, 06:30 AM
Regrettably, no. Working, working ...

Quiet1onTheSet
04-17-2009, 10:52 AM
Exactly, for example, looking at the keyframing systems in LW versus SE, it's like, the same company made this? Really? The different modules of VT even don't seem like the same company. There is something to be said for Adobe's style of if you know one Adobe apps convention, you know them all.


It would have been nice if the "dedicated video development team" had meant exclusive to SpeedEDIT, as some took it to mean, but that's not what was actually meant.

I don't realistically expect anything to be announced on SpeedEDIT next week, but one can always hope. :)

For the VT people, I don't expect any VT news, either...
Would be nice indeed, Eugene, to see evidence of NewTek giving greater attention to providing us the sheer coolness and practical benefit of redesigning the various NewTek tools for user interface uniformity.

For increasing NewTek's sales of additional tools to current customers, and those new to the table, I think that would be a significant plus.

What's more, methinks that kind of development could actually serve as a means for more solidly placing NewTek on the path to developing a tightly-integrated tool chest for their endusers, to the nth degree: one that even outstrips the interoperability and ease of use, for components within the current VT "suite".

Then there's the need, IMHO, for filling in the current, yet temporary, let's hope -- "codec gaps" that seem to be evident exist across key aspects of the product line. Resolving that matter would better facilitate going from, say -- TriCaster to SpeedEDIT/VT[5] SpeedEDIT-VT, and back.

Add to all that, the value of making sure the codecs NewTek tools write to and are able to play -- are playable in NewTek's DDRs, clip preview players and the like.

For the record, we have yet to see an "informed" response to the questions relating to MPEG2 Studio and Non-Studio Profile codecs from NewTek (currently featured for native file-writing, editing and rendering in the TriCaster 2.5 Upgrade).

See:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=872383#post872383

:hey:

Verlon
04-23-2009, 07:13 PM
all right, did something get announced at NAB? THere sure have been strong hints. Someone cough up a press release already. :)

ted
04-23-2009, 10:14 PM
Sure did. John Perkins talks about it here.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97897&page=2

ScorpioProd
04-25-2009, 01:25 AM
Alright, well, we have reached the end of this thread, thank you all for your time and efforts. NAB Show 2009 is over, so is the purpose of this thread.

SpeedEDIT 2.0 is not shipping as of NAB Show 2009.

SpeedEDIT 2.0 is not fully demoed or announced as of NAB Show 2009.

SpeedEDIT 2.0 does not have a locked feature set.

SpeedEDIT 2.0 is being worked on for the future.

I do find some irony in that one of the new features in the NAB build of SE that I saw involved a new feature that, though I think it is useful, I have NEVER seen anyone EVER ask for it! To me that just feels rather ironic with such a long list of long requested features.

Not that the ones promised last year aren't planned to be included as well, they are.

Ah well, it is what it is.

I will be optimistic and predict that SpeedEDIT 2.0 will ship by NAB 2010. But I don't expect it to ship before the TriCaster XD300.

donx
04-25-2009, 11:05 AM
Hey Eugene
I hope you don't treat Santa Clause this way. pouting over all the toys you didn't get for xmas :)
Fortunately last years toys are still working for me.

Verlon
04-25-2009, 12:17 PM
I think his gripe is that it ISN'T working with his camera.

donx
04-25-2009, 01:52 PM
In that case, Sony Corps. may be the problem. You can be sure that every few months Sony will come out with a new way of building cameras and try to impose new standards. They are one of the biggest corps in the world and often get away with this implementation (or marketing ploy). Their customers are at their mercy and Vegas seems to be the answer that suits their needs. By the time the smaller software companies accommodate their tech, they will have introduced a whole new method of capturing images.
:jester:

ScorpioProd
04-25-2009, 02:18 PM
Well, as I said in this thread, I made my intentions clear, either at least some of these long requested features were coming for this NAB or they weren't.

And like you, I've also been having a good time with my toys from last year. :)

And yes, as pointed out, for me, lack of support for XDCAM HD is a showstopper, since that is my acquisition format.

And though it's easy and correct to point out that Sony tends to come up with a lot of new formats, I really can't name any manufacturer that doesn't. Look at JVC's ProHD, that's actually outside the HDV standard as implemented by everyone else. Panasonic has their unique AVC-Intra and DVCPRO formats. And Sony has DVCAM, different enough from DV to cause some issues, and then MXF and MP4 XDCAM wrapper flavors.

This is the reality of the situation, and it's up to the NLEs that want to be successful to support as many as possible, and if not, to give at least an alternate workflow to support them.

For instance, as you would expect, Sony isn't interested in going out of their way to support Panasonic's formats. This isn't good for the users, but it's how they feel. Well, I talked with them about it at NAB, and they said they don't have any plans to support Panasonic's codecs coming up, BUT users can simply buy RayLight, and with that third-party plug-in, the users can edit Panasonic codecs natively without using an intermediate codec. To me, that's a good deal.

This is similar to what Paul Lara had suggested for AVCHD or XDCAM HD needs with SpeedEDIT via CineForm, and though I didn't ask him about it lately, I think that's certainly a valid solution that could be used with SE 1.5.5. But it depends if Newtek and CineForm can make that work. Frankly, I think that would be the quickest solution for more codec support in SpeedEDIT, and doesn't need a SpeedEDIT upgrade.

Verlon
04-25-2009, 04:47 PM
When you read about how all the manufacturers had to work to make anything remotely like HDV, you'll be amazed that there even was such a thing. Even Sony had restrictions to work with.

And speaking of which, that is one of the advantages of being a big company: you get to define the standards that work for you. Part of the HDV format is derived from having to use DV hardware (you niticed they used the same tapes? some of the internals are also the same). Whatever smart guy there was at Sony probably wasn't thinking in terms of "how can I screw some customers," but probably trying to eek out the most performance with the most cost effective solution - and all by the end of the quarter."

There are easier way to planned obselence than a new format every 'fem months.' Besides, XDCAM HD isn't exactly a 2009 introduction.

And what about Red? They aren't a giant company, but they are innovative. Better Red support would be nice (actually owning a Red would be nice, too, as far as it goes, but I digress).

ted
04-25-2009, 10:37 PM
By the time the smaller software companies accommodate their tech, they will have introduced a whole new method of capturing images.
:jester:

Well said! And yet very few express anger at this type of business practice. Even though it hurts their customers.
Don't get me wrong. I've used Sony products for 30 years. But I've grown to not like Sony for their bait and switch techniques over and over on their customers. :tsktsk:

ScorpioProd
04-26-2009, 02:48 AM
Part of it is also that big companies like Sony are not just "one" company at all.

For instance, the XDCAM EX line and the HDV Z5/Z7/S270 line though all "Sony" are made by different sub-companies. And they try to one up each other. So reality is, as told at a Sony presentation I attended, the HDV line I mention above actually has significantly more advanced 3D color correction tools in them than the higher cost/higher end XDCAM EX line does!

In my opinion, it is stupid that the XDCAM EX line and XDCAM HD lines use different wrappers.


Well said! And yet very few express anger at this type of business practice. Even though it hurts their customers.
Don't get me wrong. I've used Sony products for 30 years. But I've grown to not like Sony for their bait and switch techniques over and over on their customers. :tsktsk:

ted
04-26-2009, 12:59 PM
Hey Eugene, sorry I didn't get to see you at NAB. I was only able to make it Monday. Maybe next year!

radams
04-27-2009, 11:40 AM
I do find some irony in that one of the new features in the NAB build of SE that I saw involved a new feature that, though I think it is useful, I have NEVER seen anyone EVER ask for it! To me that just feels rather ironic with such a long list of long requested features.

What is the feature you commented on that wasn't on the list but has been added ?

Cheers,

SBowie
04-27-2009, 11:57 AM
My guess would be Play Range. There were requests for this, but I don't remember seeing any here. As you'd know Ray, it's more important to animators than editors, although its not uncommon in NLE software either.

Or Eugene might have had something else in mind...

ScorpioProd
04-27-2009, 12:10 PM
Steve is correct, that is the feature I was referring to.

I think the feature is important to editors as well as animators, but like I said, with so many long requested features not yet added, I found it odd to see that instead of others. (Yes, I said instead, since working on one thing does take time from other things that users have requested for years, that's reality.)

And to be quite frank, I really hope the current implementation of "play range" changes a lot before SpeedEDIT 2.0 is released, since it currently takes WAY many more steps to execute than in competing NLEs. And this is "SPEED"EDIT, afterall. But again, it's only an alpha right now, so it certainly has room to improve.

Ironically, the only two new features that I actually saw working first-hand at NAB one could call animator features, the play range and the frame number time readout. And yes, I have seen animator requests for the frame number time readout before.

SBowie
04-27-2009, 12:24 PM
And to be quite frank, I really hope the current implementation of "play range" changes a lot ... I had some slightly different ideas on this too, Eugene - be interested to hear yours.

ScorpioProd
04-27-2009, 12:51 PM
Yay, something we agree on, Steve! :D

Currently, one needs to first turn on "play range" from a menu. Then one has to drag the inpoint from the left of the screen and drag the outpoint from the right of the screen. Then one needs to turn it off from the menu when you want to go back to "normal" after playing it.

Wow. That's a lot of unnecessary steps!

Even if keyboard shortcuts for all those steps are added, which I would expect, it's still a lot more steps than the more typical NLE.

Other NLE: Move your cursor to where you want it start, hold left mouse button while dragging out a range, release at the end of the range, hit play. That's it. Keyboard shortcuts available for the I/O point setting of the range as well. Drag the range around as well by simply grabbing it.

I don't know if Newtek just wants theirs to look "different" or what, but I think this other way is MUCH more efficient.

SBowie
04-27-2009, 01:14 PM
Yay, something we agree on, Steve! :DIn all fairness to you, I'm sure there are many more than just one, Eugene. :)


Currently, one needs to first turn on "play range" from a menu. Then one has to drag the inpoint from the left of the screen and drag the outpoint from the right of the screen. Then one needs to turn it off from the menu when you want to go back to "normal" after playing it.Well, that does sound pretty lame. Be assured the spec calls for a good deal more convenience, so it sounds like you saw a pretty raw version.

I don't want to say too much as changes to the spec could occur yet, too - but just to comment on a couple points, the initial range setting should occur when you Ctrl-drag in the timescale, and dragging between the start and stop markers should move the entire range left or right.

radams
04-27-2009, 01:24 PM
Well, I've had a work around for play range for a long time.

It was to put a still image clip that I could position any where or any length...then just play that clip...it would play thru the area I wanted to look at....

This is a work around I use in both SE, & Aura...it's simple and easy. It is also useful when you need to render a range as well.


Cheers,

ted
04-27-2009, 06:20 PM
Leave it to Ray to find and easy option! :thumbsup:

joseburgos
04-27-2009, 06:28 PM
Well, I've had a work around for play range for a long time.

It was to put a still image clip that I could position any where or any length...then just play that clip...it would play thru the area I wanted to look at....

This is a work around I use in both SE, & Aura...it's simple and easy. It is also useful when you need to render a range as well.


Cheers,

I've been doing the same thing for viewing a range but never thought to use it to render a range.
Cool tip Ray :thumbsup:

rs402931
04-27-2009, 07:39 PM
unless I misunderstand - you can render a "range" right in the render window. Simply by marking the start and end frames on the right side of the render window.

Bob S

radams
04-27-2009, 10:50 PM
Leave it to Ray to find and easy option! :thumbsup:

Yeah, I like taking more time to create rather than fiddle around ;)
and getting things done faster and then paid sooner :)

Hey if anyone has any freelance gigs...I'm looking...
Just got laid off this month.

Cheers,

radams
04-27-2009, 10:56 PM
I've been doing the same thing for viewing a range but never thought to use it to render a range.
Cool tip Ray :thumbsup:

Hi Jose,

Yeah it works great to auto setup ranges to render with...
somthing I also forgot to say is that they are also good to use as markers and notes right in the timeline...you can quickly move between them...and use them in many ways :)

I started doing this with Aura...and now I use this in many timeline based applications...it just keeps things simple and easy to use....yet powerful.

Hey Steve, I've got an idea for an SE feature....
to be able to auto create a still/control clip....that can do all the same functions' I've just described...

What do you all think ?

Cheers,

SBowie
04-28-2009, 07:01 AM
Hey Steve, I've got an idea for an SE feature....
to be able to auto create a still/control clip....that can do all the same functions' I've just described...What do you all think ?I think you should spell it out in detail and email it to me. :)

ted
04-28-2009, 10:30 PM
Hey if anyone has any freelance gigs...I'm looking...
Just got laid off this month.

That bites Ray, sorry to hear. I'm currently helping several people in our market in the same boat. I have some great talent who's companies have had to let go. Hopefully if I get busy enough I can keep some of them on regularly.
Best of luck!

joseburgos
04-29-2009, 06:31 AM
Damn that sucks Ray. Hope you find something soon.
Good luck,

radams
04-29-2009, 07:32 AM
Thanks guys,

I'm hitting the pavement...but still no bites yet.

Cheers,

Dufusyte
04-29-2009, 02:47 PM
it currently takes WAY many more steps to execute than in competing NLEs
The SpeedEdit interface takes approximately four to six times as many clicks to navigate than a standard Windows interface.

This was the first thing I noticed about SpeedEdit, and is documented in my first post (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=568231&postcount=1).