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Mr1108
01-13-2009, 10:50 PM
Lightwave is good no doubt but.....All the other big packages allow you to pick the renderer that you want. Why won't Newtek do the same and stop forcing us to use the Lightwave renderer? Vray, Mental ray, and Renderman are by far the best renderers out there. Why can't we work how we work in Lightwave and be allowed to use them?! I've been using Lightwave for 13yrs and I'm tired of seeing killer renders all over the net saying 3d Max rendered with Vray.

Cmon Newtek.

Dodgy
01-13-2009, 11:16 PM
Ummm, funny you should mention that. A lot of work has been done in 9.6 to allow 3rd party renderers more access to LW. You can have Kray and Fprime currently, as to whether other renderers will link in, that's really up to them.

cresshead
01-13-2009, 11:23 PM
you could also make a VERY strong arguement that just WHY is it that 3dsmax, xsi and maya have to put up with mental ray, vray when there's SUCH a great renderer like lightwave around for SO little and that has tons of free render nodes and it's on MAC and PC...come on Autodesk!...dig that wallet out of yours and buy lightwave renderer for all your apps rather than that 2cpu limited [free] mental ray for maya etc...

SplineGod
01-14-2009, 12:28 AM
LWs renderer has been the reason why people have used LW for years. I doubt that Newtek themselves will do much to change that.

StereoMike
01-14-2009, 06:40 AM
Lightwave is good no doubt but.....All the other big packages allow you to pick the renderer that you want. Why won't Newtek do the same and stop forcing us to use the Lightwave renderer? Vray, Mental ray, and Renderman are by far the best renderers out there. Why can't we work how we work in Lightwave and be allowed to use them?! I've been using Lightwave for 13yrs and I'm tired of seeing killer renders all over the net saying 3d Max rendered with Vray.

Cmon Newtek.

WTF?
You can right now use 3rd party renderers as others pointed out. And there's brilliant work out there what has been done with lightwave (and it's renderer). If you haven't seen stuff that makes your jaw drop, then you spent too little time on boards as this and spinquad.
Looks like a typical grass is greener opinion. Really I love LW for it's renderer. The renderer is the best thing about the package.
And if you want to try something different, try fprime or kray.

mike

Matt
01-14-2009, 06:43 AM
Let's not forget the 999 free render nodes that ships with! (Or more if you use something like ButterflyNet Render)

Mr1108
01-14-2009, 06:45 AM
your joking right? Put up with Mental Ray, Vray? That's my point!!! In Max, Maya you can choose! You can render with Mental Ray, Vray, Renderman, Brazil etc etc. Lightwave SHOULD give us that choice. If you want to render with the Lightwave renderer than so be it but give me a choice. Thank god for Fprime though. That is the sole reason I have stayed with Lightwave as no package has anything like that. Now it does'nt work right with 9.5 and Vray is coming out with an interactive renderer. It may be time to move on.

archijam
01-14-2009, 06:50 AM
Let's not forget the 999 free render nodes that ships with! (Or more if you use something like ButterflyNet Render)

Damnit matt, I'd almost forgotten! ;)

It's also a bit weird to have LW with a $850(or so, $450 x-grade) price tag and then have to buy VRay for $999(or so). Especially since you buy VRay per-app as far as I am aware, so you can't just switch your VRay from MAX to C4D.

The number of nice renders is also proportional to the:
- number of users (especially arch vis)
- number of pirated downloads (both MAX and VRay .. actually I know 3 studios personally that are running VRay cracked)
- age of plugin (KRay is young)

Mr1108
01-14-2009, 06:57 AM
forget the cost! If I choose to pay $999 to render with Vray than let me do that! I can't believe C4d has Vray now and we don't...Unbelievable

3DGFXStudios
01-14-2009, 07:09 AM
Newtek should make an external render for max Maya Cinema etc! I'm sure it would be one of the biggest renderers in no time!!!!

Mr1108
01-14-2009, 07:14 AM
yah right man. There's tons of Max and Maya users asking for the Lightwave renderer.....cmon! Show me 1

walfridson
01-14-2009, 07:32 AM
Listen to neverko..

It's not NT job to write VRAY for lightwave. But they have made it alot easier in 9.6 for external renderers.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-14-2009, 07:41 AM
**** Vray.

At the risk of repeating myself endlessly, Newtek needs to make robust channel output and render pass management number one priority. Until that happens Lightwave will be a Light Saber without an "ON" button.

jasonwestmas
01-14-2009, 07:49 AM
yah right man. There's tons of Max and Maya users asking for the Lightwave renderer.....cmon! Show me 1

You're not listening man. Newtek is improving the LW SDK as we speak and it will enable such options. The developers of the rendering engine in question need to then seek to develop their rendering engine for lightwave using the SDK that NT has provided.

Matt
01-14-2009, 08:06 AM
Listen to neverko..

It's not NT job to write VRAY for lightwave. But they have made it alot easier in 9.6 for external renderers.

Exactly that!

beverins
01-14-2009, 08:30 AM
yah right man. There's tons of Max and Maya users asking for the Lightwave renderer.....cmon! Show me 1

Those that have tried it, want it.

Those that scoff and haven't, don't know what they're missing.

Here's a hint - IRON MAN. A brilliant job with the LW renderer in that sequence with the V1 Suit as he lays waste to the terrorist encampment. No Vray, Mental Ray, or Renderman in that entire sequence. Sure looks capable to me...

AdamAvenali
01-14-2009, 08:31 AM
i am currently using lightwave and maya for arch-viz and can say that i prefer lightwave over maya's mental ray (granted vray would be the way to go with this, but the company i work for doesnt have it). the quality can be nearly identical, but lightwave almost always tends to be faster. i have also never maxed out my machine rendering a scene in lightwave, but have had many instances where i have had to rework scenes because i have gotten a memory error with mental ray (and dont even get me started on photons haha). so that is my opinion, but to each his/her own. i would agree that it is probably more of an issue with vray being compatible with lightwave than lightwave accepting vray, because as this thread has indicated, most people are happy with the lightwave renderer and vray may just not see it as being a market.

Cageman
01-14-2009, 08:38 AM
yah right man. There's tons of Max and Maya users asking for the Lightwave renderer.....cmon! Show me 1

Everyone I work with agrees that LWs renderer would be a great asset to have access to in Maya. They really don't wan't to spend time learning how to deal with dataflow in LW... but... they DO like the LW-renderer, for sure!

cresshead
01-14-2009, 08:38 AM
yah right man. There's tons of Max and Maya users asking for the Lightwave renderer.....cmon! Show me 1

surpose it's time to raise my hand then:thumbsup:

...i'm a 3dsmax artist who bought lightwave cos of it's renderer...i use mental ray over in max and it's okay..but always slower than what can be done in lightwave...last project in 3dsmax i had to use scanline's radiosity and and a mental ray ambient occlusion pass as just mental ray on it's own was far too slow using g.i.

same with the felix catfood project where i wanted a semi 'drawn' look...3dsmax was 5 times slower than lightwave...so i built most of the models in 3dsmax, exported them and rendered them over in lightwave.

gotta love 'the wave" for rendering!:lwicon:

and on my 6000 post i'm a lightwave evangelist!!:hey:

Intuition
01-14-2009, 12:01 PM
Lightwave is good no doubt but.....All the other big packages allow you to pick the renderer that you want. Why won't Newtek do the same and stop forcing us to use the Lightwave renderer? Vray, Mental ray, and Renderman are by far the best renderers out there. Why can't we work how we work in Lightwave and be allowed to use them?! I've been using Lightwave for 13yrs and I'm tired of seeing killer renders all over the net saying 3d Max rendered with Vray.

Cmon Newtek.

Yeah and Vray is available for XSi and Maya as well as c4d now.

Vray is more and more becoming a sort of standard in the industry.

The only other engines I would compare to Vray are modo's and final render by cebas.

I use Vray XSi for my freelance and also use Maya Vray here at DD.

It has all the bells and whistles. DD aslo has modo running on the render farm (some miracle of coding/tech genius they have here) so modo is getting put through its animation paces by myself. It is comparible to Vray but you need another app to do animation and dynamics.

Vlado mentioned that Vray s possible for LW but the demand is the lowest compared to maya and XSi so he built these versions first.

Kray is like LW's Vray. Why not give it a look?

Matt
01-14-2009, 01:12 PM
Can I get Renderman while were at it?

I don't know anything about it, but Pixar use it, so it must be good, so I want it too! :D

:p

Cageman
01-14-2009, 02:59 PM
Can I get Renderman while were at it?

I don't know anything about it, but Pixar use it, so it must be good, so I want it too! :D

:p

Renderman is confusing, because it refers to so many different things, both Pixar-related and not. Renderman as a renderer is used (probably) by all major VFX studios, and my guess is that there are as many versions of Renderman as there are studios using it.

All these renderers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RenderMan_Interface_Specification#RenderMan_compli ant_renderers) (scroll down to 'RenderMan compliant renderers') are compatible with Renderman (in this case, I assume that Renderman is refered to what Pixar developed). Scroll down further (under External links) and you'll see that there are already two translators/exporters avaliable for LightWave.

However, the biggest difference is that Renderman (whatever incarnation) is a stand alone application, pretty much like FryRender or Maxwell. However, Pixar developed a version for Maya called 'Renderman for Maya' (https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rfm_webinfopage.html) which, safe to say, is a very limited version of their stand alone version.

Matt
01-14-2009, 03:20 PM
I was only kidding anyway, I'm happy enough with LightWave's render engine and FPrime!

;)

Intuition
01-14-2009, 06:18 PM
Testify!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cET7jx1t5vU

A plug-in for Vray that makes use of vray instancing all in a nice little interface. Renders fast, looks great. What else do you want?

Mr Rid
01-14-2009, 07:55 PM
**** Vray.

At the risk of repeating myself endlessly, Newtek needs to make robust channel output and render pass management number one priority. ...

Second that.

Mitja
01-15-2009, 02:04 AM
Another "We need VRay for Lightwave" thread?! No, please...

3dworks
01-15-2009, 03:43 AM
while having more options is always a plus, try kray... apart proxies and subpixel displacement it has basically all vray features (because of a comparable GI system), it is extremely fast, it renders with superb image quality, has good layout integration with 9.6 and last, but not least, it is even much cheaper than any vray implementation on concurrent platforms!

cheers

markus

biliousfrog
01-15-2009, 04:02 AM
I know of several studios that use XSI or Maya for modelling and animation and render in Lightwave....so I guess demand for Lightwave's renderer is quite high.

I'd also like to say that I don't see any advantage to having access to Vray within Lightwave. All it will do is make renders look even more generic. Search the web for arch-viz and you'll see hundreds of interior images using evermotion models and rendered in Vray. Some of them are great but they all have that Vray look...because the user has relied on the renderer to make a better image rather than learning about composition and lighting. 'Buy Vray and everything will be better'...hmm, I'm not sure it works like that.

archijam
01-15-2009, 04:09 AM
Almost OT ..

What LW needs is a few more start to finish tutorials from the community.

I would love to see this one reproduced in a similar way in LW:
http://evermotion.org/?unfold_exclusive=302&unfold=exclusive

With a LW renderer / KRay alternate ending ;)

Perhaps Exception and I will find the time soon .. not in the next few months tho :P

jdomingo
01-15-2009, 04:14 AM
love to see other rendering engine plugged in to lightwave

blender now have vray plug in.......if blender is for free, does the vray plug in for free too?

archijam
01-15-2009, 04:24 AM
blender now have vray plug in.......if blender is for free, does the vray plug in for free too?
Not sure if I follow that logic, if only the world worked that way ;)

It is not an 'official' release by ChaosGroup, but developed by someone in the bBlender community .. It still is limited in it's implementation - you can read more info here:
http://blender.bevice.ru/

It uses the Vray for Maya plugin, so that's a 1000$ price tag.

However, I don't see why someone couldn't do the same for LW, given the release of 9.6.

ingo
01-15-2009, 09:57 AM
Almost OT ..

What LW needs is a few more start to finish tutorials from the community.

I would love to see this one reproduced in a similar way in LW:
http://evermotion.org/?unfold_exclusive=302&unfold=exclusive


Oh yes, i especially like to see how they do the image modelling in LW :bangwall:

Cageman
01-15-2009, 11:25 AM
Testify!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cET7jx1t5vU

A plug-in for Vray that makes use of vray instancing all in a nice little interface. Renders fast, looks great. What else do you want?

That is truly impressive! :) Some very neat instancing tech in VRay, yes. :)

lwanmtr
01-15-2009, 04:54 PM
LW's sdk and renderer are getting much better..LW's render speed easily trumps the other renderers..I've used mental-ray in Max and Maya, and ish..talk about slow.. I tried Brazil..

I havent used FPrime since 9.2 when I kept getting objects out of place during renders..If it gets fixed, I'll try it again.

Personally, I am quite pleased with LW's render engine. I've even wow's some maya users by rendering 1080p sequences in a fraction of the time maya or mental ray could have.. I mean c'mon.. I put out 12000 frames of animation in about 14 days (give or take)..ranging from 1-3min/frame. Mental Ray wouldn't have been able to do that..specially with radiosity and full tracing...and that was using 9.3's engine...9.6 is even faster.

Intuition
01-15-2009, 05:01 PM
Yeah I don't mean to rip on LW's renderer at all. I mean there are things it doesn't do as well as MR or Vray but, for Photoreal Mblur its 2nd to none.

There are many little things about each engine which result in overall strengths and weaknesses. LW render engine has many strengths.

lwanmtr
01-15-2009, 05:04 PM
Yeah..I've done some nice renders in those others...They have their strengths to be sure.

And for ease of setup LW's renderer is tops..i dont have worry about photons and quarks or other such things..i just say how many rays, bounces and off i go..then i hit esc and change it because i really didnt need 40 bounces on a starship..LOL

archijam
01-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Almost OT ..

What LW needs is a few more start to finish tutorials from the community.

I would love to see this one reproduced in a similar way in LW:
http://evermotion.org/?unfold_exclusive=302&unfold=exclusive

With a LW renderer / KRay alternate ending ;)

Perhaps Exception and I will find the time soon .. not in the next few months tho :P

OT continued:

Search the KRay forums for 'evermotion interior free scene' to see the KRay version of the same VRay scene.

Matt
01-15-2009, 11:38 PM
Testify!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cET7jx1t5vU

A plug-in for Vray that makes use of vray instancing all in a nice little interface. Renders fast, looks great. What else do you want?

That was frickin' awesome!

cresshead
01-16-2009, 01:08 AM
That was frickin' awesome!

that's what you get when your app and renderer has instancing and proxies plus lazy loading...

lw110>>> native instancing please!

Dirk
01-16-2009, 02:57 AM
Here in Germany, more and more Max User seem to go to VRay. As I understand, it's easier to use than Mental Ray.

I'm curious, what else is it that makes it interesting?

Iain
01-16-2009, 04:21 AM
Here in Germany, more and more Max User seem to go to VRay. As I understand, it's easier to use than Mental Ray.

I'm curious, what else is it that makes it interesting?

- Render quality. For speed and Maxwell-like natural or artificial light quality and material reproduction, it has become the engine of choice over Mental Ray and Final Render for good reason.
- First class displacement/fur rendering. Unbeatable for realistic, animation-proof grass etc.
- Caustics and volumetrics that are truly believable.
- Scatter (see above)
- User base. The tutorials and support are excellent.

To be honest, LW's renderer plus Kray (and good ol' FPrime) really are a killer combination these days.
I second the calls for the improvements mentioned already. I'm sure they're on the way but it's been a long time now.

It's also worth mentioning that VRay for C4D wasn't instigated by Maxon or Chaos Group but by C4D users.
So, again, no point shouting at Newtek.

Dirk
01-16-2009, 11:47 AM
Hehe, I was reading at some max forums, and all I found was like "You know, both VRay AND Mental Ray are good renderers". But why buy an extra renderer if it isn't better than Mental Ray?

jasonwestmas
01-16-2009, 12:40 PM
Hehe, I was reading at some max forums, and all I found was like "You know, both VRay AND Mental Ray are good renderers". But why buy an extra renderer if it isn't better than Mental Ray?

lol, it's funny when people answer their own questions or maybe he was just being sarcastic.:tongue:

inakito
01-16-2009, 02:10 PM
So many companies use Lightwave as the final product to render even if the use different softwares to animate the scenes. I donīt think Lightwave users need Vray afte all as the native render engine is one of the best on the market since it came out. How many companies can actually say the render engine is included with the package is ready for production.

Thanks

jasonwestmas
01-16-2009, 02:37 PM
How many companies can actually say the render engine is included with the package is ready for production.

Thanks

XSI, C4D, Houdini and Lightwave?

Intuition
01-16-2009, 09:19 PM
No one really needs to say if Mental ray is better then Vray or LW or anything. What you have is the need for a render engine's specific capabilities. In the case of Mental vs Vray you have two completely different approaches. Yes you can do most cg things with both of them but once you get a decent amount of time in each engine you start to really get what each one does well. I use Vray more then Mental Ray but in some cases I would use MR over Vray.

Stooch
01-17-2009, 12:39 AM
**** Vray.

At the risk of repeating myself endlessly, Newtek needs to make robust channel output and render pass management number one priority. Until that happens Lightwave will be a Light Saber without an "ON" button.

precisely.

Iain
01-17-2009, 04:19 AM
So many companies use Lightwave as the final product to render even if the use different softwares to animate the scenes. I donīt think Lightwave users need Vray afte all as the native render engine is one of the best on the market since it came out.

Yes but not many of those companies do the more demanding work a renderer can face.
Very few use it for architectural work for example.

Your 'Best on the market' tag is possibly erroneous nowadays unless you're talking about best for vfx or some other specific.

AbnRanger
01-17-2009, 09:42 AM
your joking right? Put up with Mental Ray, Vray? That's my point!!! In Max, Maya you can choose! You can render with Mental Ray, Vray, Renderman, Brazil etc etc. Lightwave SHOULD give us that choice. If you want to render with the Lightwave renderer than so be it but give me a choice. Thank god for Fprime though. That is the sole reason I have stayed with Lightwave as no package has anything like that. Now it does'nt work right with 9.5 and Vray is coming out with an interactive renderer. It may be time to move on.On the surface, it seems to make sense to have all those wonderful choices...but LW is a different animal than Max, Maya, and XSI for the simple fact that it's native renderer is on par with Mental Ray.
As for Max, which I use myself, Mental Ray sucks tailpipe cause it is incompatible with a host of Max plugins...like Afterburn, Dreamscape, FumeFX, etc. You can't even use the Hair and Fur plugin properly (post render hair shader is much faster than having to use MR primitives).
I use finalRender Stage 1 R2 instead of Mental Ray for mainly that reason.

With LW's renderer, you have none of those issues/headaches. The only thing LW needs to compete with MR is mult-pass rendering management, and you have 3rd party options for that.

lwanmtr
01-17-2009, 03:16 PM
Well, any 'quality' arguments aside....NewTek is moving the sdk to allow these sorts for other 3rd party renderers to be created...so all these 'LW should..." comments are kinda moot..hehe.

Each one has it's strengths and weaknesses....

Will we ever see Vray, MR, Brazil or whatever be seen? Well, thats not up to NewTek..it's not up to them to try and solicit. But to be honest, I doubt we'll ever see them because they probably dont view LW as a large enough market to warrant the development.

Dirk
01-17-2009, 05:11 PM
As for Max, which I use myself, Mental Ray sucks tailpipe cause it is incompatible with a host of Max plugins...like Afterburn, Dreamscape, FumeFX, etc. You can't even use the Hair and Fur plugin properly (post render hair shader is much faster than having to use MR primitives).

Wow, wouldn't have thought that it is that bad.

vsele
01-17-2009, 05:14 PM
Almost OT ..

What LW needs is a few more start to finish tutorials from the community.

I would love to see this one reproduced in a similar way in LW:
http://evermotion.org/?unfold_exclusive=302&unfold=exclusive

With a LW renderer / KRay alternate ending ;)

Perhaps Exception and I will find the time soon .. not in the next few months tho :P
There you go....you can find it here http://www.kraytracing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1422...the scene has been translated from johnny in LWO and then rendered with Kray RC1

Captain Obvious
01-17-2009, 05:52 PM
When it comes to Lightwave, rendering and the SDK, I would argue that LW actually has better integration of third party renderers than pretty much everything else on the market. Even with complex shading using third party shader nodes and stuff like that, Lightwave's native render output can actually be pretty much pixel-to-pixel identical with the output from Kray or FPrime. This is hardly the case with 3dsmax's scanline/mental ray/Brazil/finalRender/etc, or Maya's, or anything else that I can think of.

lwanmtr
01-17-2009, 06:07 PM
Thats a good point...the other apps need the 3rd party renderer because their own renderers are generally bare bones and cant handle alot...NewTek has always put alot inton LW's renderer...FPrime was a great renderer because of it's speed..but LW's renderer can render faster than FPrime in most cases..and doesnt suffer from objects moving out of place or any of that...I'm sure Worley will fix that with the new SDK improvments, but Fprime will really have to be super impressive for me to consider it as a render solution...

And if you think thet LW is the only one with 3rd party renderer problems, just read Don's post above..Mental Ray and Max dont work perfectly together either..I havent put MR through any tests in Maya, simply because I use LW as my renderer.

Im not saying there is no point 3rd party renderers, I just think people have a tendancy to take the 'grass is greener' approach too much. But hey, if MR works for you, use it.

jasonwestmas
01-17-2009, 06:22 PM
When it comes to Lightwave, rendering and the SDK, I would argue that LW actually has better integration of third party renderers than pretty much everything else on the market.

I think that is true of Fprime but I really can't forgive the lack of high density meshes for displacements and lack of fur. Not that was ever worley's responsibility.

lwanmtr
01-17-2009, 06:24 PM
Yeah, there were alot of connections FPrime needed to have that just werent there..but we'll see how things go with 9.6

Matt
01-17-2009, 06:25 PM
Remember this?

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82349

:D

lwanmtr
01-17-2009, 06:30 PM
Lol

jasonwestmas
01-17-2009, 07:38 PM
Remember this?

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82349

:D

For some reason I didn't get excited when I saw those picts. :D

Exception
01-17-2009, 07:43 PM
I can switch from LW's great native renderer to Fprime and Kray without changing any of my lights, cameras or surfaces. Try that in Max! Also, Kray gives Vray a run for its money in many cases, and LW's native rendere is more than up to the task for demanding GI applications, and certainly provides more flexibility than any other render engine out there (cel shade line render combined with full GI and motion blur, anyone?).

I think we're in a pretty good spot. Vray would be nice, but I doubt I'd be using it. Why would I? Kray does what's needed if LW can't cut it, at a fraction of the price.

That said, I do look forward to better buffer management and gamma control.

jasonwestmas
01-17-2009, 07:47 PM
I was never able to figure out what was so different about Kray other than the nice GI. I suppose I would need to give it a test run. My guess it's about the subtle differences?

Captain Obvious
01-17-2009, 07:49 PM
Regarding the whole compatibility thing... I did a test a while ago and rendered the same object in LW, FPrime and Kray. It looked the same in all of them. This was with a very complex shader, with about 100-150 nodes. Three different kinds of ambient occlusion, the grit node, and a whole bunch of procedurals and god knows what else.

I don't think there are many applications out there with such good compatibility between the renderers. It still needs to get better, of course, but it's already not too shabby.

misko
03-26-2012, 12:38 PM
Guy Sketchup realized how important is to have a good final render like Vray can have done (they are growing and we are getting less people), and now sketchup have this as an alternative

http://www.lumenrt.com/ShowYoutube.php?k=4JiJ44gbS8Q

I feel Newtek is way behind free softwares like Sketchup

archijam
03-27-2012, 01:12 AM
This thread is broken, methinks ..

silviotoledo
03-29-2012, 09:19 PM
I discovered a Way to have V ray in Lightwave.

Lightwave --->FBX or Collada --->Max or Blender ---> V ray


So, I decide to try another easier pipeline soon

Lightwave ---> K ray



I also want a Gerardo Estrada trainning video showing how to get his nice pics from Lightwave to compositing :)

silviotoledo
03-29-2012, 09:21 PM
I discovered a Way to have V ray in Lightwave.

Lightwave --->FBX or Collada --->Max or Blender ---> V ray


So, I decide to try another easier pipeline soon

Lightwave ---> K ray



I also want a Gerardo Estrada trainning video showing how to get his nice pics from Lightwave to compositing :)

silviotoledo
03-30-2012, 08:26 AM
So, the problem is solved!

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56940&d=1207021092