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bugzilla
01-12-2009, 12:50 PM
Here's a video I created that shows some of the issues I have with Lightwave I have long hoped would change as well as some features I wish LW would implement. Check it out and add what you wish would change, improve,update.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmEe72sgtqc

Chris S. (Fez)
01-12-2009, 01:30 PM
Good suggestions.

bugzilla
01-12-2009, 02:24 PM
I agree, Newtek should fix the animation problems,
it should be possible to fix Quaternion problems automatic, like other application are also doing... It is not enough to put the QuaternionBooster as a plugin in theMotionOptions panel, as a modifier... many people didnt can know about stuff like Quaternion!Many great animators are not so Technical, this is also a reason why Lightwave sometimes is to complicated for animation


Also, Quaternion Booster does not work with Motion Mixer. I suspect it acts weird with other motion plugins as well.

GregMalick
01-12-2009, 02:35 PM
Boy did you ever prove that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Nicely done. :thumbsup:

Kuzey
01-12-2009, 03:47 PM
Interesting....good stuff.

Kuzey

COBRASoft
01-12-2009, 04:05 PM
You should make tutorials :)

Nicely illustrated and very to the point.

kfinla
01-12-2009, 04:46 PM
Great suggestions.. i hope we see all these things implemented in 10.

Matt
01-12-2009, 04:53 PM
You should make tutorials :)

Nicely illustrated and very to the point.

Bugzilla does make video tutorials!

Great explanations on there Bugzilla, hope NT are listening.

Stooch
01-12-2009, 05:10 PM
cliff notes:

-he wants a fix for gimball lock (this is being asked for alot in the beta forum)
-he wants a better manipulator gizmo, like the one in blender (ditto)
-he wants animation layers (also asked for in beta)
-he wants a workflow that steps away from the drop down list for goal objects. again this is asked for already in beta. personally i want to see that handled in nodes.
-he also wants to have visibility layers... again this is also asked for already. personally i want that to be not just visibility layers but render layers as well.

zapper1998
01-12-2009, 05:28 PM
Boy did you ever prove that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Nicely done. :thumbsup:


Ditto

Bog
01-12-2009, 05:36 PM
Can't really complain with any of that, to be honest. While we're about it, how about a Zoom function on the Scene Editor? Go on, you know you can do it - you did it in the Node Editor... let me select 400 similar things with a middle drag.

Buy you a pint, I would.

4dartist
01-12-2009, 05:48 PM
I've gotten so used to the gimble and rotations right now, changing it scares me a lot. I just use nulls to help when needed, but I don't do a lot of character stuff. I do remember though, when using systems other than standard HPB that make what he wanted to do easier, you lose the ability to really control your curves, other than just tension, etc. They start making less sense to me the more the program is messing with your rotations.

I guess I just like the rough but extremely simple and clean way of rotation right now. Call me old school i guess.

I freaking love, LOVE the item pick idea for pull downs.. I loathe hunting a pulldown for an item...

Nice video. Thanks.

COBRASoft
01-12-2009, 06:40 PM
Matt: ok, I had no idea :bangwall: his tutorials must be good then (like yours :))

Castius
01-12-2009, 07:01 PM
I agree we need many more robust tools for animation.
Full Undo Support.
Rotation order option and quarternian controllers.
Scene display/Render Layers
consolidated/Improved graph and dope sheet editor.
More gizmo options. (BTW 9.6 has improved gizmo wireframe drawing. )

But you're not going to get rid of gimble. Not without taking away a easy to edit curves. I tested Maya in dealing with your gimble test. In Maya if you pass the gimble threshold it won't wobble but in stead it will rotate the shorted path to that value. In both cases you won't get what you want. It's a problem that just can't go away without giving up something.

Also as a side note i wouldn't be doing pitch orient command on a animated rig or while animating. The bone edit tools won't destroy animation but it's not something you want to be doing.

hrgiger
01-12-2009, 08:20 PM
What a great way to express your concerns for Lightwave development and can't argue with much of what you said. Pickers would be nice and a layer system in Layout would be swell. There was the plug-in Surpasses by Lukasz Pazera which allowed you to layer but that didn't go too far.

lwanmtr
01-13-2009, 02:00 AM
That was a very descriptive video..lets you see exactly what he's talking about. Getting into rigging in lw im seeing those rotation issues more than with the tech stuff i normally.

Castius
01-13-2009, 04:22 AM
I modified a script i got a long time ago. To help setting up IK Goals, target and Poles for 9.5.

It's a Master script with a Non model window. So you can leave it open while you work.

To use it, first select a bone and set it as the focus. Then pick the item you want to be the IK goal. Choose the type of method you want. Then set the item. You should now have you bone with the IK goal set.

You can also use this to snap your IK Goal to your FK keyed limb while you animate.

I hope it helps.:)

lwanmtr
01-13-2009, 04:55 AM
Cool. I'll have to check it out tomorrow..is it pc only, or a generic lscript?

Castius
01-13-2009, 05:05 AM
Generic, should work fine on mac

bugzilla
01-13-2009, 07:18 AM
I modified a script i got a long time ago. To help setting up IK Goals, target and Poles for 9.5.

It's a Master script with a Non model window. So you can leave it open while you work.

To use it, first select a bone and set it as the focus. Then pick the item you want to be the IK goal. Choose the type of method you want. Then set the item. You should now have you bone with the IK goal set.

You can also use this to snap your IK Goal to your FK keyed limb while you animate.

I hope it helps.:)

Thank you. I will try that out.

3DGFXStudios
01-13-2009, 07:49 AM
I 200% agree with you!!!!

jin choung
01-13-2009, 02:21 PM
i gotta say that video was SOOOOOO well done... it's so cogent and articulate and the stuff being asked for is concrete with relevant counter examples from blender when applicable.

great stuff bugzilla!

totally totally totally agree with the drop down list critique... something as simple as your dropperselect tool would be a brilliant addition (although this is a problem that LOTS of blender tools suffer as well... hahaha, in fact i asked for the exact same dropper tool in the blender forums!!!).

biggest problem i have with lw's manipulators is that unlike in blender or maya, it draws them in such a way so that at different angles you can't tell how they're oriented... it suffers from the qbert "am i looking into a concave space or a convex box" problem. they definitely need to change how they draw their manips.

as for gimbal lock, yeah, that's a pretty common problem. in lw, it's as prevalent as it is because i don't think lw actually has different coordinate systems (world, local, etc) - it ONLY has world and the local system is just drawn for the user as a manipulation aid... it converts EVERYTHING back to world. that's why it's wigging out... because the gimbal lock you THOUGHT you avoided wasn't avoided at all... when the animation happens, those keys are still in world space. (can anyone confirm?)

but i DO like that in the maya manip display, you can SEE when you did hit gimbal lock. that's one area where lw's view is helpful by showing the coinciding axes. now we just need a real way to AVOID IT!

with maya, you can overcome it by changing rotation orders under euler or going quaternion. i believe blender is quaternion already, that's why you don't have that problem. but i would like to make the point that blender people are ASKING FOR EULER! so the best option would not be to get rid of euler rots for quats but to have quats, euler and the ability to change ROTATION ORDERS with euler (if you change what axes get evaluated FIRST, you can frequently avoid gimbal lock on the axes that matter for a particular limb - it's still possible to induce gimbal lock of course but most limbs in characters are NOT 360degree 3 axis ball joints!

(BTW, LOVED THIS "people say there's some kind of mathematical reason why this happens but all i know is it doesn't happen in other apps".... fing brilliant. that's the thing that matters.)

also, your example about being able to just draw a spline in layout very clearly illustrates a basic case where having the split apps ends up being a problem. and certainly, having to jump back and forth between layout and modeler in the case that you're demonstrating would be a hassle.

and you put the whole thing on youtube so it's easy to stream/watch.

all around a classy, intelligent and compelling presentation.

5 thumbs up.

jin

lwanmtr
01-13-2009, 02:30 PM
when the animation happens, those keys are still in world space. (can anyone confirm?)

The numbers are local to the object not world space...although there is always some value even when a bone is at rest. At least on the rig I'm working on.

What is the difference between Euler and Quaternion? I never really paid any attention..and until this thread I didnt even know about the quaternion plugin..heh. I assume that LW is using Euler?

Andyjaggy
01-13-2009, 02:45 PM
(BTW, LOVED THIS "people say there's some kind of mathematical reason why this happens but all i know is it doesn't happen in other apps".... fing brilliant. that's the thing that matters.)

Haha seriously. I love it when you get people on here explaining the technical reason behind why something doesn't work, saying how hard it would be to do, And I'm like I don't care about the reasons, or the technicalities, or how hard it is to make work. I just want it to work.

Wickster
01-13-2009, 02:49 PM
cool video.

did you forward this to "lw-features @ newtek.com" it's another way of getting it noticed.

Bog
01-13-2009, 02:52 PM
The Eulers were a football team, and Quaternion had something to do with a pit...

(I'll get my coat).

jin choung
01-13-2009, 03:37 PM
The Eulers were a football team, and Quaternion had something to do with a pit...

(I'll get my coat).

lol! brilliant!

jin

jin choung
01-13-2009, 03:54 PM
in answer to that question though, a trip to wikipedia would likely answer better than i could (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion_rotation#Quaternions_briefly) but it's mostly to do with stuff we don't need to know - i.e. math...

(yeah i know... it's funny that a computer graphics person just said that. a professor in a 1970s MIT class just strangled a kitten)

in the caveman terms that i understand it - euler is the thing with the familiar axes and to find the final orientation, it has to evaluate one axis at a time. the ability to change the ORDER OF EVALUATION is present in maya but not in lw and i know from first hand that it is tremendously valuable.

quaternions arrive at final orientation by mapping your current orientation to the desired orientation along the surface of an imaginary sphere. that's why in quat systems, you get stuff like "shortest distance", "longest distance" etc as options... that's how the quat system is evaluating the inbetweens. there is no such thing as gimbal lock in quats but you can still get weird results and flipping.

and there ARE disadvantages with quaternions, starting with the fact that the graph editor looks alien.... which is why maya still gives you an euler front end even when working under quats.

jin

Tonttu
01-13-2009, 04:07 PM
Quaternionmass (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062168/)

kfinla
01-13-2009, 04:08 PM
Also I believe there is a forth peice of data with Quaternions.. Euler just has H,B,P.. Quaterniorn I think the 4th value is a vector giving it an orientation/location along that sphere Jin mentioned.

lwanmtr
01-13-2009, 04:23 PM
ahh ok...makes a little more sense now

Just looking at that wiki Jin linked..I gotta was ..what? Hehe....those strings are too long for me to think about..LOL I need an aspirin.

In Maya, I've experienced the flipping in my early attempts at rigging..mainly because of the joint order and trying to push things.

I think it would be good to have both systems available..and if possible have them be able to work together on a single rig..but not sure how well that would work.

Revanto
01-13-2009, 05:07 PM
cliff notes:

-he wants a fix for gimball lock (this is being asked for alot in the beta forum)


Gimbal lock can be fixed with an extra rotational bone added as a parent to the main bone. It's not the perfect fix as you lose joint compensation but it is a workable solution. I don't know how hard it would be for Newtek to implement this but by making the gimbal fix bone virtual, I don't see how this could be implemented into normal bones. Basically, Pitch and Bank would be one set of values while Heading would have its own value. Two sets of values but one bone. Can it be really difficult to implement such a thing?

I just don't see how the math would be so complex in regards to this.

Revanto :p

jin choung
01-13-2009, 05:22 PM
there is NO math in regards to that solution. you're just pushing off the rotation that would induce gimbal lock to another entity.

but how would that "buffer" look to an entity's properties if it was "embedded"? so instead of an x channel, you have an x1, x2, x3, etc.... ? and how would that evaluate then with y1, y2, y3 and z1, z2, z3..... likely to create a bigger mess.

the math to the solution (with ROTATION ORDER, MITIGATION) is not exotic or cutting edge. quats and rot order fixes are out there for the taking. newtek just needs to implement it.

jin

Cageman
01-13-2009, 08:54 PM
A very good video bugzilla!

However, the gimbal problem is evident in other apps as well. As Jin mentioned, there are rotation order options that let you choose which axis should work (you will always have one axis that will go into gimbal, but in Maya you can at least choose which one).

The solution to this (and this isn't really rocket sience and something I implement in my rigs) is to use 2-item setups where one is parented to the other where the first one takes care of two axis and the second takes care of the axis that the first will make a gimbal of.

EDIT: With this approach, you are not limited to rotation orders, and I've yet to run into any problems with it. Advanced rigs in Maya where the rigging artist has made use of rotation orders rather than 2-item setups, can take ALOT of time to troubleshoot.

adamredwoods
01-14-2009, 03:07 PM
cliff notes:

-he wants a fix for gimball lock (this is being asked for alot in the beta forum)
-he wants a better manipulator gizmo, like the one in blender (ditto)
-he wants animation layers (also asked for in beta)
-he wants a workflow that steps away from the drop down list for goal objects. again this is asked for already in beta. personally i want to see that handled in nodes.
-he also wants to have visibility layers... again this is also asked for already. personally i want that to be not just visibility layers but render layers as well.

+1.
Sounds good to me!

We need quaternion internal solvers, but keep Euler HPB for the UI.

Animation layers... dont we have this in Motion mixer? Or is MM too buggy/confusing to use?

One thing I've noticed is that LW users have been asking for these things for years, but these are all UI issues. LW developers don't seem to be as robust in the UI division, so it seems there's a skill gap. I could be wrong, but I would bring in a UI specialist.

Matt
01-14-2009, 03:18 PM
Here are some awesome tutorials explaining rotation issues in 3D:

The Rotation Problem (http://www.guerrillacg.org/home/3d-rigging/the-rotation-problem)

Euler Rotations Explained (http://www.guerrillacg.org/home/3d-rigging/euler-rotations-explained)

Castius
01-14-2009, 03:24 PM
Yes those are all good requests. Newtek has to know those are very important issues. But it's never a bad idea to remind them. 8)

I know it's not a dev ability issue. It's has to do with. How much should be done to 9.X before your wasting time on breaking old code and not working on new and better platform? Personly I'm all for moving forward.

We got many features in 9.5 that improve how complex a CA rig can be developed in LW. 9.6 Refinded those features. Now we just need to live with them untill somone makes plugins for these featues or LW 10 comes out.

Acually we had a plugin for layering animation with Keytrak plugin. (Same person that made Motion Mixer) In my opinion someone should have picked up were that plugin left off a long time ago. But there are only so many plugin developers supporting LW ATM. But if more people do CA in LW there will be more need for these tools.

jin choung
01-14-2009, 04:58 PM
We need quaternion internal solvers, but keep Euler HPB for the UI.

that's what maya does when you switch to quats but i would argue that we want ALL options. quats DO have issues at times where euler angles would solve it better. so ideally, we would indeed be like maya:
1. euler angles
2. for euler angles, the ability to determine ROTATION ORDER (of evaluation) (xyz, yxz, zyx, etc)
3. quaternions with euler front end.


Animation layers... dont we have this in Motion mixer? Or is MM too buggy/confusing to use?

actual animation layers are different from what we traditionally call "non linear animation" and yeah - MM is our own poor implementation of that.

with animation layers, every channel in an object can just have multiple motion graphs and you can determine how they mix together (like photoshop layers). less steps and more immediately accessible.

and yes, MM is stuck in the stone ages. it needs to work like a modern video editor in its ability to work with clips. instead it's like stuck in a 1967 nasa space capsule where you have to break out the slide rules every now and then.

again, shouldn't be a case of either/or. we should have both.


One thing I've noticed is that LW users have been asking for these things for years, but these are all UI issues. LW developers don't seem to be as robust in the UI division, so it seems there's a skill gap. I could be wrong, but I would bring in a UI specialist.

yep.

walfridson
01-14-2009, 05:08 PM
The quatro thing that was added (in 9.2?). How's that suppose to help in all this? Anyone used it?