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jaxtone
01-10-2009, 06:00 AM
History: (Short version!)
In the 80īs and part of the 90īs you had very few options as a creative artist if you wanted to work with 3D, unless you were born in a filthy rich family. The purchase prices on 3D-licenses and hardware were way above of what most of the creative souls on the planet could afford.

I can understand that the costs for technical developement were huge as always when someone takes the first steps into new challenges. For you who donīt remember or are to young, in the early days you had to pop up about at least $1 000 000 to even start your first 3D scene. (I am not talking Amiga now guys even if I admit I had a few of these as well!)

I went to Silicon Studios in London in the end of the 90īs to attend two Maya courses. This was probably the most worthless money I ever spent. These two weeks was a rip off that did cost me $ 8000 for a a teacher that actually stood in front of the class and read text from a text book and could hardly co-operate with the overhead screen behind him.

I hanged out with some persons connected to Silicon Studios and was chocked to hear their built in protectionism! At this moment Microsoft was about to put Silicon Graphics down from their throne of selfesteem. The guys at Silicon Studios in Londong announced that this probably was the death stab into all aspects of 3D. They said that Microsoft was about to ruin the whole world of 3D. In their opinion Silicon Graphics used their whole profit to develop the hardware and now we all have come to worlds end! (To me it sounded like ********!)

I confronted them with my thoughts, that high prices excluded millions of users. I told them I recently (1998) read that many of the film production companies in Hollywood bought render farms with hundreds of machines for the price of one Octane! I also added that the budget alternative O2 was kind of buggy. I can assure you I wasnīt the most popular guy at that place!

But unfortunally reality always have the same tendence for all commercial companies, it comes knocking at your door when youīre not willing to listen to your customers. What a pitty for James H. Clark that started it all up with good intentions in 1982!

http://www.computing.co.uk/itweek/news/2163972/sgi-confirms-mips-irix-systems

What then happend was that both 3D-studio and Lightwave were out on the market as low budget alternatives. This meant that suddenly millions of people had an option to try out a new technique that could express their creativity. (Of course not always legally! But the fact they learned it and learned it well probably lead to that loads of commerical companies later employed young and hungry self educated 3D-creators. And I guess they also bought new licenses for their new employees.)

Alias Wavefront was suddenly in trouble! Lower prices and different ownership came much to late as it always do when large companies acts! During that time, more and more users increased their knowledge in both 3D-studio and Lightwave and of course even a few others. For you guys that enjoy working with films and editing I just want to mention SONY and AVID that actually have exactly the same agenda as described above.

Question:
Why did Avid Express pop up on the scene so damn fast, with loads of bugs!

Answer:
Final Cut

Today:
Autodesk is about to do exactly the same thing as all giants out there. Creating a locked cage were no one except for them with fat wallets is welcome! Unfortunally creativity is less interesting to them than building a Fort Knox of all 3D-softwares on the planet!

Raising prices and creating very expensive support deals that excludes hobbysist, small companies and next generation users looks to me like they try to rewind the clock to were it was in the 80īand 90īs.

IMHO:
Itīs of great importance that both users and NT understands that LW probably is one of the last outposts worth mentioning in the 3D-world. And that if LW ends up under the feet of Autodesk it will probably die or be sold out as a low budget alternative without any further development. How interesting would that be for anyone?

How can we make a difference?

Users:
Always tell what you think can be better!

Developers:
Always listen to your customers!

Let the customer know whats happening in the future! So we know if thats what we want!

Increase the possibilities for LW to communicate with other important 3D applications!

I believe that every voice, input and critisism is valuable in the long run. I also believe that irony and sarcasms must not be taken too serious. These parts are most probably caused in frustration by the fact that LW is getting more isolated when Autodesk lock their positions against us with both a terrible price agenda and scripts that exclude us from communication with their users! I have some very unpleasant information of where at least some of Autodesks profit from the past went. By reasons I cannot tell because it could lead to a fatal personal consequense I canīt tell it right now. But when the years have passed and age takes out its right I might!

Well thats all for now! Interesting to see whats on your mind when talking of Autodesk!

cresshead
01-10-2009, 06:53 AM
interesting read, but not quite all there, silicon graphics intorduced the sgi 320 and 540 in 1999...yeah they were expensive but they ran on windows NT.

also 3dsmax and lightwave really made the humble 'pc' the alternative to irix based software fropm silicon graphics.

also microsoft paved the way for softimage 3 to be ported to windows..yeah it was still Ģ15K...

when maya 1.0 came out it was Ģ28K or Ģ7000 per module [artisan, live, fur] compared to Ģ2600 for 3dsmax or Ģ2500 for lightwave.

so where are we now...?
well autodesk have the three top 3d apps and by 'top' i mean apps that are taught to students at uni's and colleges around the world for future jobs over at game and film studios.

that's their domain now and i don't see anyone about to knock them off that spot anytime soon.

as for other apps well we have houdini which is now up against xsi/ice but costs much more unless you want the stripped down version of it.

also Blender is the real dark horse around here...it could be the future other/alternative top dog if/when the re write it and sort the u.i. out.

lightwave? well that depands on what newtek has in store for it with lightwave 10..if it's just a nudge up then it'll sit in the lower end 'also rans' along with messiah, modo, carrara, cinema4d, etc

if newtek do a new app [1 app] then who knows...they still have a mountain to climb but they also have a good track record and 'that renderer':)

also not that autodesk put up subscription for 3dsmax by 27% last year which didn't please me too much..but if they tack on c.a.t and the 3d camera/viewports i think it'll still keep me interested in subs...

modo is yet to make a full 3d app..no particles, bones, dynamics..

messiah has no modeler and it's dev has slowed..

that leaves cinema 4d and lightwave as the commerial alternatives...

cinema has a modular approach to it's app which keeps me away from it as the upgrades need to be all done otherwise it breaks..makes it expensive..more expensive than maya complete...

lightwave needs to 'move on'....lightwave 10 roadmap will hope to answer some big questions if newtek wants to only focus on tricaster or also wants to invest in the long term developemtn of lightwave and keep it evolving enough so it doesn't slip backwards as others [modo, cinema and blender move forward with new versions]

blender looks to be on the verge of pulling a huge number of users from other apps..it's going to be a no brainer if they sort out the u.i.

and then we have the specialist apps...
zbrush
3d coat
mudbox
modo [to a degree as it stands]

here's the thing...bottom line.

will lightwave try and rub shoulders with xsi, maya and 3dsmax again with lightwave x

or

will lightwave go in a different direction and become a specialist app?

MooseDog
01-10-2009, 07:38 AM
...
How can we make a difference?

Users:
Always tell what you think can be better!

Developers:
Always listen to your customers!

Let the customer know whats happening in the future! So we know if thats what we want!
...

this point's one's thoughts to the open-source model of software development and it's premise of constant communication, which while a bit more chaotic and less efficient, ends up providing software that excels in the marketplace. (i'd be willing to bet that if nt's servers kept a log of user-agents requests, firefox would be well over 50-70%. this is a reflection of nt's market though, which demands lightweight software that performs well.)

watching and participating in the open-beta programs leads me to believe that nt, in it's inimitably confused way, is listening to it's customers, is engaged in a dialogue with it's clients, and is moving to developing software it's markets need.

the 3D software market has followed a very natural economic path (from innovation to competition to consolidation), which should have autodesk executives very worried as horizontally integrated conglomerates are always very vulnerable to nimble competitors reacting quickly to the markets' needs.

the coming promised roadmap should be very interesting and telling.

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 07:56 AM
interesting read, but not quite all there, silicon graphics intorduced the sgi 320 and 540 in 1999...yeah they were expensive but they ran on windows NT. when maya 1.0 came out it was Ģ28K or Ģ7000 per module [artisan, live, fur]...

I hope you didnīt misunderstood me when I wrote: History! (Short version!) It was never my intention to being to detailed about each part of the past history of Alias Wavefront or any other soft- or hardware! Here are a more complete list for people who wants to put energy on old Silicon machines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics

Cress! For your interest, the price tag from "Anno Datzumal" you announced for the different Alias Wavefront suites that was needed to use the full application was from your point of view, in Sweden there was a completely different price tag on each application! Way above your numbers!

Maya - integrated modeling, animation, rendering
Advanced Visualizer - 3D animation
Kinemation - 3D character motion
Dynamation - interactive dynamicsand animation
Composer - compositing for video and digital movies
3Design - NURBS bases 3D modeling
Model - 3D modeling
StudioPaint3D - 3D paint application
Alias Renderer - rendering
Director - centralized graphical user interface for Alias|Wavefront packages

But honestly "because this thread was started pretty much becuase of it", how many of these Alias Wavefront suites could you afford paying for?

:stumped:

P.S. I didnīt know that C4D was that expensive! Thought it was dead cheap! Anyone information about its render capacity?

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 09:22 AM
Letīs forget the 10 year cycle, at least in the past because then Lightwave, (if you wanna mention it as a low-end solution), already hadr 5.6 up and running! It was somewhere here that Silicon and Alias experienced problems with their sales because smaller competitive companies like Newtek and Autodesk addressed their 3D applications to a big population of users! I clearly exposed that I was talking of the 80īs and part of the 90īs! In 1998 it was already possible for common user to work with 3D just because at least not the price tag was high-end!

I donīt believe the inflation have made $200 000 ten years ago become as low as $4 000 today! Then I have been totally tricked and working for free for about ten years!

I donīt want to be too exact when predicting the future but ten years from now I can at least say that its more likely that common users can afford being creative with a decent 3D-software than it was 20 years ago when almost no one could afford it.

I believe your future scenery is wrong since I at least hope I do not look backwards in the meaning of buying antique versions from Autodesk because they have ran out of value! My hope is that the software, Lightwave, I have used for at least ten years professionally will be rock hard and never a slave under the greedy feet of Autodesk!


SGI, Alias and others was HighEnd, they was doing products exclusiv for HighEnd Customer, today the things are different, the products are not anymore exclusiv for HighEnd-User everybody can buy a computer, that can do more than a Cray some years back... But there is still expensive Highend equipment today, many of us didnt need or can buy today... in ten years than you can ask the same question, how many of these HighEnd stuff could you afford paying for?

Lightwolf
01-10-2009, 09:54 AM
In 1998 it was already possible for common user to work with 3D just because at least not the price tag was high-end!

Even in '92... except that you were obviously sneered upon by the "pros" - if you ever met them in the first place.

If I remember correctly the game was basically over for SGI by 95/96 already.

Cheers,
Mike

shrox
01-10-2009, 11:42 AM
At Sega, by 1999, SGI machines where basically paperweights. I remember discovering three of them in a closet, with unopened software boxes. I think I just got LW6 about then.

shrox
01-10-2009, 11:44 AM
Even in '92... except that you were obviously sneered upon by the "pros" - if you ever met them in the first place.

If I remember correctly the game was basically over for SGI by 95/96 already.

Cheers,
Mike

Amblin was using LW for SeaQuest and Voyager in 95-96, they were running DEC Alphas.

cresshead
01-10-2009, 03:22 PM
the price difference between say lightwave and maya complete is around $1000 on paper as lightwave is $1000 and maya complete is $1999

but there's a few things to take into account

lightwave doesn't have instancing...there's a plugin but it costs around $200
no full on preview renderer like maya/metalray...there's fprime...around $400
cad style tools...lightwave cad...around $200
some sensie plugins?..say $100
output layers for AE and open exr etc $200
nurbs?..
vector renderer [flash/ai] toon renderer] there's a plugin around $200


as you can see if your trying to match up lightwave to be a similar capability then your at or over the cost of maya complete..of course you may not need ALL of those plugins but you can see that lightwave out of thre box does not compete on specs 'as is'

maya has 4 renderers in the box, software, hardware, vector and mental ray...now i'm not sure how the render node thing works for all of them but i recollect that software was something like 10,000 free nodes to match up with 3dsmax waay back...as for mental ray..no idea maybe just a couple so it's THERE where lightwave renderer scores

so on first glance lightwave appears to be 50% the cost of maya complete bu depending on what you NEED it may cost more than maya complete once you add your plugins that YOU NEED

as for 'upkeep' well maya gets a new version every 12 months and subs are pretty high at around $600, lightwave get a re write [cost upgrade] every maybe 3 years..much cheaper

lightwave would really start to score with it's $1000 price tag if most of those capabilities filled in by commercial plugins were actually developed and inside lightwave box as you bought it.

the thing that's making lightwave competative currently is the production renderer and the free 999 nodes

so it'll be really interesting to see what newtek come up with for 2009 in regards lightwave 10 and where it's going.

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 03:59 PM
Well, I guess youīre right in one way but thats only because you lived in the US by then, "I guess". But let me tell you this, before broadband was most mans choice Scandinavia unfortunally always have been a few years behind US in all aspects. I believe we were even left behind Great Britain and that sucked because there are only about one and a half hours flight time between us.)

I bought my first PC in -92 but I actually mostly used it for music production since the graphic software I could afford were not capable of doing anything worth mentioning. In daytime I worked as a CAD/CAM guy designing engines for Volvo Trucks in Catia, Cadds 4X and other not so very exiting softwares. These machines were huge and had loads od capacity when calculating and creating huge models. Unfortunally they were not designed for what I wanted to do! The Volvo guys scratched their heads when they suddenly started to see human faces modeled on the crankshafts, I just couldnīt stand fooling myself just because I wanted to create real 3D, so I quit! I am still proud when I hear some of them Volvo Trucks still rolling on the roads. Because even if it was a dirty job someone had to do it! :D

I used airbrush a lot to create X-ray originals for the industry but really wanted to transform my inner ideas to a digital environment. I had two Amigas that was pretty fun to play around with but they couldnīt do even half of what my airbrush gun was capable of. The guys over here that had option to get close to Alias systems and SG built a Fort Knox around every Indigo or similar and didnīt let any else in! So these options were totally locked if you see what I mean.

But back to your theory that SG was out numbered in -95, -96. Well again I have to say, not over here! That clash came about two, three years later and I remember both a really sad and great moment in -98 that maybe sounds like ********, but to me it became a truth that SGīs price tag didnīt survive the environment outside the high-end studios.

I signed a contract with a company who had asked me to create all 3D animations for a world tour for one of the worlds largest companies! But the mandator never told me that he actually hadnīt signed deal with the main customer! I just had a date and a meeting with the customer sent to me, but do you know where? At a competitors office, damn I thought I was screwed to the bone by then!

Anyway, I popped into the meeting without knowing anything about the competitor because my assigner suddenly went on a vacation without even giving me a light brief of the situation.

I knew that my assigner had about 130 PC machines in a network at their office building and that my version of Lightwave had a brutally strong network render capacity! It was a 6 week mission so time was pretty limited. I came directly from a photo session with my kind of popular rockabilly band and I guess the Armani dressed competitor misunderstood my rock style with leather boots and jacket, ear rings and mascara. So he challenged me in a very rude way in front of the customer and tried to frame me like an idiot by saying:

- We own a Silicon Graphics computer that is called Octane and we also have five PCīs in a network! How do you match that?

- Weīve got 130 machines running in a network and two 3D-animators working 24/7 in both Lightwave and 3D-studio! So as I see it you are the man with a problem since the more we talk, the more time we lose!

The customer might have thought I was a freak, but a freak with an attitude! They probably liked me because I travelled back home with a contract worth at least $ 300 000! I delivered the one hour animated content before the deadline!

But I always wondered where the Armani guy did put his sweet Octane?

Additional:
I told you that Scandinavia in the past always been a bit slow when new stuff are released in the US! I add something that maybe doesnīt belong one hundred per cent to the threads subject, but if I am doing something wrong I hope Iīll be excused and not executed.

I donīt know if you are aware of this, but everytime a film have had itīs premiere in US, cineasts in Scandinavia always have had to wait a couple of months before it was released here.

I love film and are kind of split minded in the debate of when people download films illegally. I believe that the big film companies in US would have minimized the risk of losing cash if they had this in mind. Maybe theyīre market agenda was water proof earlier, but nowadays I donīt really know! The masses rules! The masses donīt want to wait if they donīt have to! The masses donīt like to be the last in line! The masses now know how to get an instant kick!

Bad or Good is not for me to judge, but even I hate to wait for films so I understand the eager ones. Personally I am no fan at all of downloading films for hours and watch them on plasma screens on the wall. People may call me old and a traditionalist but I prefer watching great films at big cinemas, on huge screens, with great sound and a big bowl of popcorn!


Even in '92... except that you were obviously sneered upon by the "pros" - if you ever met them in the first place.

If I remember correctly the game was basically over for SGI by 95/96 already.

Cheers,
Mike

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 04:17 PM
Youīre right and I am literally screwed in every aspect! :agree:

But tell me then, cause I want to sleep this night!

Why am I still working with Lightwave, why does anyone?

P.S. I did dig into the whole of Maya somewhere before and after the millenium! But I didnīt like it because if you had to do something really quick you fell into a wormhole of possible options that both delayed the process and killed creativity. I must add that Mayaīs internal render machine was a total disaster.

I even tried out XSI for a while but then I decided to go back to the Lightwave interface because I didnīt have time learning other softwares at the same time I created productions for my customers.

Maybe if I have had cloned myself by then? :cursin:


the price difference between say lightwave and maya complete is around $1000 on paper as lightwave is $1000 and maya complete is $1999

but there's a few things to take into account

lightwave doesn't have instancing...there's a plugin but it costs around $200
no full on preview renderer like maya/metalray...there's fprime...around $400
cad style tools...lightwave cad...around $200
some sensie plugins?..say $100
output layers for AE and open exr etc $200
nurbs?..
vector renderer [flash/ai] toon renderer] there's a plugin around $200


as you can see if your trying to match up lightwave to be a similar capability then your at or over the cost of maya complete..of course you may not need ALL of those plugins but you can see that lightwave out of thre box does not compete on specs 'as is'

maya has 4 renderers in the box, software, hardware, vector and mental ray...now i'm not sure how the render node thing works for all of them but i recollect that software was something like 10,000 free nodes to match up with 3dsmax waay back...as for mental ray..no idea maybe just a couple so it's THERE where lightwave renderer scores

so on first glance lightwave appears to be 50% the cost of maya complete bu depending on what you NEED it may cost more than maya complete once you add your plugins that YOU NEED

as for 'upkeep' well maya gets a new version every 12 months and subs are pretty high at around $600, lightwave get a re write [cost upgrade] every maybe 3 years..much cheaper

lightwave would really start to score with it's $1000 price tag if most of those capabilities filled in by commercial plugins were actually developed and inside lightwave box as you bought it.

the thing that's making lightwave competative currently is the production renderer and the free 999 nodes

so it'll be really interesting to see what newtek come up with for 2009 in regards lightwave 10 and where it's going.

Lightwolf
01-10-2009, 04:53 PM
Well, I guess youīre right in one way but thats only because you lived in the US by then, "I guess".
You're wrong. I was in Germany but working my first 3D projects that made me money (granted, a little, but still) - on an Amiga.

Edit: By the game was over I meant the start of the SGI decline. It was quite obvious that it would loose the lower end market and had nothing up its sleeves to compare against cheap, Intel based workstations.
Faster OpenGL and i/o yes... but slower CPUs.

Cheers,
Mike

jaxtone
01-10-2009, 05:08 PM
Well it was a guess! But you can be sure that companies here still invested their money in SG machines even in -97. Donīt ask me why but thats a fact that probably is connected to what I said earlier, we have always been a little behind US.

Nowadays I canīt say that its an disadvantage since so many things have gone wrong in the US. Maybe we can learn something of US mistakes and cover up to not do the same during the approximated three months I am gagging about! During the time we can torture ourselfes sitting in IKEA furniture or driving our Volvo cars listening to ABBA and ACE of BASE! Uack!

You're wrong. I was in Germany but working my first 3D projects that made me money (granted, a little, but still) - on an Amiga.

Edit: By the game was over I meant the start of the SGI decline. It was quite obvious that it would loose the lower end market and had nothing up its sleeves to compare against cheap, Intel based workstations.
Faster OpenGL and i/o yes... but slower CPUs.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
01-10-2009, 05:13 PM
Well it was a guess! But you can be sure that companies here still invested their money in SG machines even in -97.
Oh, they did here as well... even if it only made limited sense for 3D. At least that was my take on it at the time (which is around the time we opened our studio...).

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
01-10-2009, 06:16 PM
on the plus side for lightwave newtek did a promo for an extra seat for just over Ģ300...so i have 2 seats..and the freeby apps are and were pretty good way to keep people on lightwave too.

this sounds a bit odd but for me THE reason for sticking with lightwave is probably THESE forums...they are the best..great people and great suporrt.

and like many have said lightwave delivers 90% and that's enough for most projects..i've done no character animation in lightwave..i'll leave that for my 3dsmax as it's so simple compared to lightwave..i tried meastro but couln't get on with it when i know i have biped just a couple of clicks away with 3dsmax..rigging up your own character in lightwave is doable but 3dsmax is far simpler to work with so no point making hard work of it in lightwave when i have the option of 3dsmax.

i bought xsi foundation but found it gave me nothing i didn't already have in 3dsmax or lightwave..not used it since..still in the box and not installed anywhere on my pc's.

so why do i have lightwave when i also have 3dsmax...well i had some spare cash when lw7 was around and decided to add it 'just to see'...also i was a good app to help students learn 3d when i was teaching 3d at college in 2003-2005...i also added xsi but many people including myself found it too 'techy' compared to max or lightwave and it had some odd ideas on the basics as well....basically learning xsi seemed hard work compared to lightwave or 3dsmax.

maya?..i have the ple and 3dbuzz training..i'll go thru that one day!

where next?

well we'll see where newtek takes us and also what happens with 3dsmax for the 2010 version due out at the end of april.

if i have time i may learn maya...could be useful in future job applications.

BigHache
01-13-2009, 07:27 AM
Does AutoDesk still have a no transfer policy on their software licenses? If so that adds a plus to apps like Lightwave. Because of that and because of these forums I was able to purchase a Lightwave license for ~$500. That of course does not increase revenue for NewTek but I will be looking to upgrade.

Even if I got my license new for full price, I still got my tool cheaper than most programs and I can add on as needed, if needed.

cresshead
01-13-2009, 08:17 AM
Does AutoDesk still have a no transfer policy on their software licenses? If so that adds a plus to apps like Lightwave. Because of that and because of these forums I was able to purchase a Lightwave license for ~$500. That of course does not increase revenue for NewTek but I will be looking to upgrade.

Even if I got my license new for full price, I still got my tool cheaper than most programs and I can add on as needed, if needed.

yeah autodesk products are EXTREEMLY difficult to buy ad get authorised second hand...last person i knew who did that bought max 3.1 second hand...so that was YEARS ago!

usual line from autodesk is you have to buy the 'company' to get their software they have authorised and be able to upgrade / go onto subs.

so to remind people that applies to>>
3dsmax
maya
mudbox
xsi
motion builder
sketchbook
combustion
toxic etc etc...

jaxtone
01-13-2009, 12:54 PM
cresshead: ... usual line from autodesk is you have to buy the 'company' to get their software they have authorised and be able to upgrade / go onto subs!

Damn! You made me laugh with this one! Great fun but sad as well...

In my opinion Autodesk are more like lizards just because they eat you alive when they can! Their policy may be great for those who adore free market politics on the egde to stupidity, (for you who disagree with my opinon please take a look around of whats happening in the western world of today.) This all seems to bery very unnatural compared to the old school business model! I may not have an agreement on this subject from American citizens because mostly raw capitalism is something many of theme get it with the mothers milk!

Of course I donīt wanīt anyone to work for free, just as little as I praise when a company plan to buy each independent 3D- and post software on the market. The reason they do this can of course be discussed but when the very same company keep prices, subscripton slave contracts and support on a level where itīs so easy to feel the greed itīs pretty obvious that their business goal is to create a one way ticket to empty our pockets! Only!

Derrick_SA
01-13-2009, 02:06 PM
I've just got to say,

I think lightwave 9.5 is awesome value for money, but one of the biggest advantages of owning it is the policies lightwave use, eg. dongle to work on any of your own pc's. and the 999 render seats, all this for a grand, can't beat that.

Their policies really seem to show that they actually care for their customers, and want to help you and build a relationship, not just make a quick buck out of you and move on.

even the 9.5 build that was free if you owned 9, autodesk and the rest would have charged you a handsome lot for so many extra features and improvements.

Newtek is awesome!

- Derrick

adamredwoods
01-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Lower cost of software has also paved the way for the training houses, thus lowering the "cost of entry" for the general public even more.

kopperdrake
01-13-2009, 04:25 PM
the price difference between say lightwave and maya complete is around $1000 on paper as lightwave is $1000 and maya complete is $1999

but there's a few things to take into account

lightwave doesn't have instancing...there's a plugin but it costs around $200
no full on preview renderer like maya/metalray...there's fprime...around $400
cad style tools...lightwave cad...around $200
some sensie plugins?..say $100
output layers for AE and open exr etc $200
nurbs?..
vector renderer [flash/ai] toon renderer] there's a plugin around $200

Does Maya Complete have Cloth and Fur?

Red_Oddity
01-13-2009, 05:09 PM
Does Maya Complete have Cloth and Fur?

Nope, and i wish Maya was as cheap overhere in the EU, Maya complete goes for 2650 euros (that's almost $3500 US) and offourse you want a subscription with that otherwise you'll pay too much when it's time to update, the price of a subscription is somewhere around 675 euros for a normal subscription or 1225 euros for a gold subscription (this means you can call customer support when Maya isn't working or wrecks your scene and then get told it is because of a bug they already know and you can do a workaround. So pretty much a 500 euro 'f' you)

And don't get me started on Unlimited, 6645 euros and 1395 euros for gold subscription (there is no normal subscription for Unlimited), so that would would be 8040 euros (which is $10580 US)

So to get an actual complete Maya you'd have to buy Unlimited, which costs as much as a brand spanking new car.


As to the original topic of the thread, no, AD still has a policy where you are not allowed to resell a license, unless you take it to court (like the Ebay AutoCad lawsuit) and you'd probably win if you have a favourable judge who still thinks 'selling' a license (rather then renting the software, which is bascially what a license is, a software rental as you never really own the software) and who thinks shrinkwrapped EULAs are bogus.
Then again, with the ebay case the software was never used or activated, so that might have worked in the ebay sellers advantedge.

cresshead
01-13-2009, 07:44 PM
when your looking at maya complete vs lightwave vs 3dsmax vs xsi vs cinema 4d etc and your comparing feature lists it's easy to favor on or the other depending on what YOUR priorities are for a purchase..also a feature 'list' doesn't tell you if the 'feature' actually works well in productions..it just 'lists' it...so beware the lists and dig deeper before you jump to conclusions of how they stack up against one and other.

maya complete has a load of things for example that lightwave doesn't..it all depends on what you want...re hair well there's paint effects or you can add shave and a haircut [extra cost plugin]

re cloth..depends on the simulation your trying to achieve..sometimes softbodies will surfice for a scene and maya complete has those i believe.

so it's far from cut n dry...if you want nurbs, muscles, great rigging, instancing, multiple undo's everywhere that actually work, vector rendering..then maya may be the way...
lightwave has it's great assests too like thew renderer, free999 nodes of it...portability from mac to pc and the usb dongle, being able to buy second hand, hypervoxels and a low learning curve as well.


if your looking for a 'job' then maya ands max is going to be where the most job opportunitues are....

hosres for courses really!

Also to cherry pick a 'missing feature' doesn't mean an app is now off the list unless it's totally needed and also if the feature not missing in the other app can actually deliver production worthy results...for exampe i have yet to see a single decent animated character with a great looking haircut in lightwave 9.x that also has dynamics and not a stickle brick fixed look to it....just saying!:devil:

btw free cloth sim>>
http://sourceforge.net/projects/freecloth/

and as EVER...blender does cloth!
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual/Cloth

in the end there is no perfect solution..their all crap and annoying in some respects!
and as seen there's loads of workarounds for short comings in apps that don't deliever 'out of the box'

i'm really eager to see where newtek are taking lightwave 10..maybe once 9.6 is out of the stalls we'll get the info finally..or maybe they'll hang on till siggy 2009 which is going to be a near autodesk lockout if you think about just how much of the competition autodesk has aquired of late!

A Mejias
01-14-2009, 01:22 AM
LW actually has infinite nodes if you use LWSN in Mode -3. And probably if you use a third party render node manager.

jaxtone
01-14-2009, 03:57 AM
I am convinced that very few of the Autodesk fans Iīve spoken to during the latest two years own a proper license of their software themselfes. The very same people many times complains that there arenīt jobs enough, that they live at their parents houses, havenīt finished school or have to donate kidneys to survive.

I am not a moral police and I donīt give a damn if anyone use cracked versions as long as they are learning the software. As said earlier by me, this "illegal" behavior actually supports the software in the long run better than any marketing strathegy known up to date. (The people at Autodesk probably know this to and realize why 3D-studio/3DMAX was and are the most spread 3D-software on the planet. Damn itīs a "f" virus! :) My opinion in this case isnīt so much about if one specific 3D-software in detail have better options for modeling, animation or FX than another, to me this is about one thing only:

Autodesk greedy price policy, slavery support deals or a weird immaterial right hocus pocus that sucks hard to anyone that has to pay for it by him-, or herself!

When looping around in endless discussions with Autodesk fanatics, (and I donīt discuss the software(s) itself), I donīt believe that each one of them are aware of that not everyone can, will or use cracked versions, a great mom that sells her soul for a license, or an employer thats fix the party!


Nope, and i wish Maya was as cheap overhere in the EU, Maya complete goes for 2650 euros (that's almost $3500 US) and offourse you want a subscription with that otherwise you'll pay too much when it's time to update, the price of a subscription is somewhere around 675 euros for a normal subscription or 1225 euros for a gold subscription (this means you can call customer support when Maya isn't working or wrecks your scene and then get told it is because of a bug they already know and you can do a workaround. So pretty much a 500 euro 'f' you)

And don't get me started on Unlimited, 6645 euros and 1395 euros for gold subscription (there is no normal subscription for Unlimited), so that would would be 8040 euros (which is $10580 US)

So to get an actual complete Maya you'd have to buy Unlimited, which costs as much as a brand spanking new car.


As to the original topic of the thread, no, AD still has a policy where you are not allowed to resell a license, unless you take it to court (like the Ebay AutoCad lawsuit) and you'd probably win if you have a favourable judge who still thinks 'selling' a license (rather then renting the software, which is bascially what a license is, a software rental as you never really own the software) and who thinks shrinkwrapped EULAs are bogus.
Then again, with the ebay case the software was never used or activated, so that might have worked in the ebay sellers advantedge.

dnch
01-15-2009, 03:35 PM
NEWTEK, PLEASE DON'T SELL LIGHTWAVE TO ADOBE!



(or autodesk, or anyone other!)
(btw. and make fprime an inbox part of lightwave:)

cresshead
01-15-2009, 07:48 PM
I am convinced that very few of the Autodesk fans Iīve spoken to during the latest two years own a proper license of their software themselfes. ][/B]



well i DO..i started with max 2.5 back in 1999 when i put some of redundancy money over to 3dsmax commercial and charcter studio2.2
fre update to max 3 then paid update to max 4..missed 5,6, and came back to update to max 7 from max 4 and went onto subs...

speaking of which we've found today that sofimage c.a.t. is now free for subs as of today and also puppet shop is also free [rrp $995] so subs has paid for this near twice over and we'll get max 2010 soon too..what's in that and when we don't know but it's looking good today...we also got given puppetshop for free today also.

dwburman
01-15-2009, 11:54 PM
I'm trying to remember something... Didn't Newtek make an Irix version of LW back in the 90's or was it just Mac, Windows, Amiga and Dec Alpha?

Lightwolf
01-16-2009, 02:12 AM
I'm trying to remember something... Didn't Newtek make an Irix version of LW back in the 90's or was it just Mac, Windows, Amiga and Dec Alpha?
There was an Irix version of 5.6, 6.0 was never ported though.
I also saw Modeler run in an Itanium based Win NT box at a Siggraph.

Cheers,
Mike

jaxtone
01-16-2009, 04:26 AM
Sorry Cress!

I wrote this in a hurry! What I meant was MAYA!


well i DO..i started with max 2.5 back in 1999 when i put some of redundancy money over to 3dsmax commercial and charcter studio2.2
fre update to max 3 then paid update to max 4..missed 5,6, and came back to update to max 7 from max 4 and went onto subs...

speaking of which we've found today that sofimage c.a.t. is now free for subs as of today and also puppet shop is also free [rrp $995] so subs has paid for this near twice over and we'll get max 2010 soon too..what's in that and when we don't know but it's looking good today...we also got given puppetshop for free today also.

cresshead
01-16-2009, 10:20 AM
I'm trying to remember something... Didn't Newtek make an Irix version of LW back in the 90's or was it just Mac, Windows, Amiga and Dec Alpha?

yeah lightwave 5.6 was also on irix:thumbsup:

DiscreetFX
01-16-2009, 08:42 PM
We would still like to try that Irix version on our SGI O2 or Octane.

jaxtone
01-18-2009, 05:04 PM
We would still like to try that Irix version on our SGI O2 or Octane.

Well isnīt that too late now? :hey:

Captain Obvious
01-18-2009, 06:17 PM
I have it on good authority that there was a semi-working version of LW running on Solaris, too.