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bugzilla
01-08-2009, 08:21 AM
I've been using Lightwave for a while now. Love the price point, the speed you can accomplish things and the new IK enhancements. But, the instability of the program is starting to get too much to bear. 3D animation takes so long to do that it's maddening to spend time modeling, texturing,rigging, animating only to have bugs in the program screw things up. Motion Mixer has become very buggy and is almost unusable. Merging a rigged character into a scene with Load Items from Scene does not work correctly. IK Booster is a mess. Game engine export is pathetic. Crashes are constant. The undo feature works for some items, but not others. The way LW handles rotations make character animation a pain.

I wonder if things are going to get better. It seems that for every step forward, there is a step back somewhere else in the software. I've started learning Blender and the rigging tools are very good. I can't believe how stable it is. In three weeks it has crashed once. Lightwave might crash 3 times in one evening's work.

I am really, really frustrated and angry right now. Is there any reason to continue with this software or is it time to move on?

ben martin
01-08-2009, 09:21 AM
I've been right where you are!

All what you say is mainly correct.
We all know that LW CA (Character Animation) is one of LW fragilities.

Nevertheless I truly believe that Lightwave has a lot to offer.

The solution I implemented to my team is 2 ways based:

1. Original modeled characters:
My team models all in Lightwave and exports to Blender to Rig and animate and back to Lightwave via MDD.

2. Poser Based Premade characters:
We use DAZ Studio (Free) to animate Poser Pre-made content (with morph alterations to achieve better looking results) and 3 extra paid plugins:

1. Animate: http://www.daz3d.com/i/software/studio/animate?_m=d

2. Animator: http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/daz-studio-add/animator-daz-studio?item=6848&cat=341&_m=d

3. Figure Setup Tools: http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/daz-studio-add/figure-setup-tools?item=8113&cat=341&_m=d

From here we use Collada to export from DAZ back to Lightwave and all our CA problems are solved.

No need to quit from the finest and fastest render engine and other things LW has to offer.
Anyway, Blender is a nice growing/powerfull aplication but the render engine is somewhat… huh… well… plastic?

My point of view.

Courage!!
Find a CA solution that works with Lightwave for you and you are done suffering. :)

Matt
01-08-2009, 09:44 AM
I go through this lack of faith every now and again when things go wrong, I understand how you feel!

I know I shouldn't mention this outside of OB, but I think an exception can be made here. I'm not sure what version you're using, but the soon to be released 9.6 has been solid as a rock.

Are you on Mac or PC BTW?

So I would wait for 9.6, and see how that works out for you.

Castius
01-08-2009, 10:04 AM
I haven't had time to really use LW in a production environment in a while. But i have felt your pain in the past.

IK Booster and Motion Mixer have gone down hill ever since they were added. I'm guessing to few people used them to produce enough bug reports on them. As well as very difficult to producing reproducible bug reports. Most problems arise when the scene becomes to complex to reproduce the bug. But i usually could narrow it down after awhile. At this point i think i can see LWs code working like it's the matrix. But then again that could be the rum.

Now the good new. If i submitted a bug report it usually got fixed. Newtek has done there best to fix any bug reports they can reproduce. 9.6 is almost done but i imagine if you could create bug reports for the issues. You could make a case that they needs to be fixed. Most certainly if they crash LW.

Can you post any scenes without mesh for other to try to recreate the bugs?

In the end you need to do what you have to get paid. But if more people use LW for CA. The more input we have to make LW better at CA.

RebelHill
01-08-2009, 10:17 AM
Well I never use motion mixer... mainly cos, yes, its rubbish...

But unstable... I cant even remember the last time LW crashed on me (win32)... as for CA... Ive never had any problems... not reli...

And all I see is the program getting better with each new release.

ah christ on a bike... now i sound like a frikkin fanboy.

have faith mon frere... it shall be rewarded.

biliousfrog
01-08-2009, 10:49 AM
I've had this with the last few major releases, since 8.3. They'll release the latest 'WOW' version and it's an instant disappointment...by the time it's gone through the 'patch' cycle and they're ready to release the next version everything seems to work ok and you start to get excited by the 'leaked' features of the next release....Then you get the latest 'WOW' version and it's an instant disappointment...by the time it's gone through the 'patch' cycle and they're ready to release the next version everything seems to work ok and you start to get excited by the 'leaked' features of the next release....Then you get the latest 'WOW' version and it's an instant disappointment...by the time it's gone through the 'patch' cycle and they're ready to release the next version everything seems to work ok and you start to get excited by the 'leaked' features of the next release....

etc.

I'm waiting to see what the next Modo release is like. From the siggraph videos it looks more than capable of what I need and the MDD support is supposed to be flawless.

bobakabob
01-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Merging a rigged character into a scene with Load Items from Scene does not work correctly. IK Booster is a mess. Game engine export is pathetic. Crashes are constant.

Which version are you using? I think Larry aka Splinegod has grumbled about 9.5 being buggy in productions. However apparently a lot of bugs have been squashed and the CA tools improved for the imminent release of 9.6.

I'm using 9.3 for modelling and basic CA and it's solid as a rock especially on XP 64. Also I've never had problems loading rigged characters from a scene and once objects are tweaked in the display to economise on memory, animation can be a pleasure.

bobakabob
01-08-2009, 11:03 AM
I've had this with the last few major releases, since 8.3. They'll release the latest 'WOW' version and it's an instant disappointment...by the time it's gone through the 'patch' cycle and they're ready to release the next version everything seems to work ok and you start to get excited by the 'leaked' features of the next release....Then you get the latest 'WOW' version and it's an instant disappointment...by the time it's gone through the 'patch' cycle and they're ready to release the next version everything seems to work ok and you start to get excited by the 'leaked' features of the next release....Then you get the latest 'WOW' version and it's an instant disappointment...by the time it's gone through the 'patch' cycle and they're ready to release the next version everything seems to work ok and you start to get excited by the 'leaked' features of the next release....

etc.

I'm waiting to see what the next Modo release is like. From the siggraph videos it looks more than capable of what I need and the MDD support is supposed to be flawless.

Hmmm, read the Modo forums, there are threads on stability issues. Still it looks like a great product, produced by the original LW geniuses. Weirdly as a LW user since 5 (and happy ZB dabbler) I've never got on with the interface (what's with the vertical tabs?). Also there's still no word on CA.

adamredwoods
01-08-2009, 11:44 AM
9.5 i found to be a bit unstable, but I havent used it in production.
9.6 seems to be MUCH more stable. And yes, Newtek responds to bug reports if you supply a sample scene.

bugzilla
01-08-2009, 11:46 AM
My team models all in Lightwave and exports to Blender to Rig and animate and back to Lightwave via MDD.

Find a CA solution that works with Lightwave for you and you are done suffering. :)

I didn't even notice that Blender exports MDD files. Doh! Rigging and animating in Blender has been awesome so far and I agree with you that the Lightwave render engine is far better than Blender's (and much faster).

If I can get the animation to export from Blender and render in Lightwave that would be the best of both worlds. I'll look into that. Thanks.

monovich
01-08-2009, 11:58 AM
I go through my dark valleys with LW as well, but in the end I know it so well and own so many plugins I just keep going. It does keep getting better too. The low point was during the late 7.x series.
I only use motion mixer for simple timewarping and stretching of motions like camera moves, and it works great for that. Just don't have multiple instances of the same object with the same name or it all goes to pieces.

geothefaust
01-08-2009, 12:01 PM
Just to reiterate... 9.6 so far has been super solid, I've tried to learn rigging and character animation in various versions of LW from 8.0 to 9.6, and all I can say, is that in 9.6 things function how you EXPECT them to and work pretty well. In previous versions... Well, let's just say it was less then desirable.

Try out 9.6, I don't think you'll be disappointed. :thumbsup:

PS- Blender is pretty sweet in that regard =AND= you can paint weights in any viewport and test deformations on the fly. Awesomeness ensues!

Weetos
01-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Ok guys now I need to test that modeler>Blender>mdd>Layout pipeline !
Thanks for sharing your experience, it's true LW's CA tools are definately not my friends ( and I'm tired of having to switch between modeler and layout, editing weight maps endlessly and ending up with bad deformations no matter what
This evening, I try Blender ! Wish me luck !

Bugzilla - I do hope you'll find a way to keep LW in your pipeline cause 9.6 really has some great advantages over the competition, and the renderer is a true godsend ;)

ben martin
01-08-2009, 01:21 PM
To test the Lightwave-> Blender-> (MDD) to Lightwave system just follow this steps:

1. Model the character in Lightwave and save as a LWO.
2. Open Blender and import the LWO file.
3. Rig in Blender / Weight maps paint in Blender.
4. Animate in Blender
5. Use Blender Export script MD2 (md2)

Back to Lightwave.
6. Load the LWO character to Layout.
7. Go to LWO Properties panel -> Deform Tab
8. Add Displacement -> MD_Plug
9. Load the MD2 file from Blender.

You are done!

Weetos
01-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Thanks Ben :thumbsup:

JBT27
01-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Hmmm, read the Modo forums, there are threads on stability issues. Still it looks like a great product, produced by the original LW geniuses. Weirdly as a LW user since 5 (and happy ZB dabbler) I've never got on with the interface (what's with the vertical tabs?). Also there's still no word on CA.

And let us never forget the original Modo 3 release.....an object lesson in when NOT to release a new version. It put me off Modo for months - I didn't even know there was a new version in the offing as that whole thing turned me away from Modo and Luxology. I like Modo, alot, but it's a bug and crash-fest, and the reason bugzilla posted this thread in the first place is how I feel many a time when using Modo.

That's not a Modo-kick, it's just making the point that the grass is rarely greener, etc etc.....I can only add to the barely legal :D comments that for your own sake at least, wait till you've test driven 9.6.....

Julian.

bugzilla
01-08-2009, 02:37 PM
For everyone who asked, I'm currently using 9.5 on a PC. I usually work on one PC and render on another. I have 9.5 at work as well, both Mac and PC, so I have the instability problems on a wide variety of hardware platforms.

There are many aspects of LW I definitely enjoy, but it's the instability that is killing me. The CA tools are hard enough to use in LW, Newtek, don't add bugs on top of that fact.

adamredwoods
01-08-2009, 03:36 PM
Bugzilla, do you have specific crashes you want to share?
Mine from 9.5 were that the modeler would sometimes crash when I'd update surfaces in Layout. Even more so when Viper was turned on.

I also had crashes with FiberFx, but I accepted those since FiberFx is still in its infancy stage (with 9.5).

calilifestyle
01-08-2009, 04:07 PM
I had it just crash, making parameter changes. scaling, moving X,Y,or Z.

Tom Wood
01-08-2009, 04:34 PM
I'm still on 8.5 and it's very stable now that the video drivers are stable. I crashed Layout a couple of days ago by closing all objects in Modeler, one of which was in a scene. I have noticed that it works smoother to open Modeler first, load objects to be used in a scene, then open Layout. Maybe should be closed in reverse order too, dunno.

MotionMixer has always worked fine for me, but my scenes are pretty simple.

Sensei
01-08-2009, 04:37 PM
Having many random crashes with LW is usually sign of not redirecting configuration directory for every single LW version that you're installing..
You really should have dirs f.e.
C:\Documents and Settings\[user]\LW90
C:\Documents and Settings\[user]\LW92
C:\Documents and Settings\[user]\LW93
C:\Documents and Settings\[user]\LW931
C:\Documents and Settings\[user]\LW95
C:\Documents and Settings\[user]\LW951
C:\Documents and Settings\[user]\LW96
etc.
every beta version with different dir.. or absolute remember to delete configs each beta update (every week or so)..

Otherwise you're asking by yourself to have troubles.. you will run older version "just to check something", it will overwrite cfg from newer LW.. and it's gone.. and you will see crashes, that would not happen without running older LW..

I don't remember when the last time LW crashed..

Iain
01-08-2009, 04:38 PM
I don't think many people using 3d software in a production environment feel they can or should rely on one application.

LW still has real strengths in intuitive modelling and quality, reliable rendering but few people are of the opinion that it rivals Maya or XSI for animation so guess what? They use Maya or XSI for that!

Carm3D
01-08-2009, 05:15 PM
I do most of my modeling in Silo. I use Lightwave for animation. Natch. :)

Matt
01-08-2009, 07:07 PM
Has to be said, 9.5 was never really ready, different story with 9.6

kojean
01-08-2009, 10:40 PM
I had random crashes in 9.5+ until I added lightwav.exe, modeler.exe, hub.exe and lwsn.exe to my Windows Data Execution Prevention DEP exceptions list. That made a big difference for me.

jaxtone
01-09-2009, 02:06 AM
To me 9.6 seems to be very reliable!

colkai
01-09-2009, 02:15 AM
I do most of my modeling in Silo. I use Lightwave for animation. Natch. :)

I'd love someone to do a setup for Silo that makes it 'feel' like LW. I bought it a bit back but can't stop myself thinking, "but in LW" when I'm using it. :p

Samus
01-09-2009, 02:41 AM
Hi all,

The funny thing is that you can complain alot about Lw crashing , but Maya like other 3d softwares crashes as well( often Modo while painting textures), there is no going around it! IMHO and some crashes also can be machine specific.


my advice would be to save alot and often before major actions like simulating dynamics, particles and what not.

good luck, sometime it's just a bad day.

Cheers

jaxtone
01-09-2009, 02:57 AM
One thing I have learnt lately is that its hard to be a Lightwaver if you want to share the benefit of communication between 3D softwares!

I am still on deep water when trying to integrate DAX studio or Animation rigs into Lightwave by using the Collada or any of the other optional import/export applications! Im still exhausted after trying to import rigs from Poser into Lightwave. I have tried some of the applications that are available but it doesnīt look good and the export/import procedure contains too many problems to make it worth spending more time on at the moment!

I just read that at least Lightwave OB 9.6 have killed some bugs on this issue. Gotta take a deep breath to get some fresh oxygene before give it another try!

mav3rick
01-09-2009, 03:13 AM
To me 9.6 seems to be very reliable!

can't believe you said that..

Cageman
01-09-2009, 03:36 AM
Just to add some info here...

Animation-Rig (http://www.newtek.com/forums/album.php?albumid=10&pictureid=39)

TD-Rig (http://www.newtek.com/forums/album.php?albumid=10&pictureid=40)

The TD-rig has tons of realativity and follower to create motions that works for a fish (with tweakable/animatable delay using the blue controllers). It consist of 520 bones. The animation-rig is what I use to animate, then I transfer the motion on the animation-controllers over to the TD-rig where I add and tweak almost all secondary motion.

This was done in LW9.5 release version... not only that, but I also used LW9.5 to bake the displacement map based on a highres export from ZBrush (thanks to Spiroza and his magic tricks with DPonts nodes).

During this whole rigging and animation process I didn't experience many crashes at all. It was very stable to me.

Exception
01-09-2009, 07:24 AM
May I suggest here that properly submitted bug reports that are complete with explanation and example scenes are listened to and acted upon very fast. Reconstructible crashes are certainly addressed within a very short time frame, sometimes even days.

The rotation system of Lw will likely be changed for Lw v10. Character animation is on the conveyor belt towards improvement, where it has not been for quite some time. This is quite possibly the most exciting time to be a LW user, ever. I'd make sure to keep an eye on any news concerning new releases, and hang in there for a while.

Matt
01-09-2009, 07:49 AM
Name a program you use that has NEVER crashed, ever! I'm struggling! :)

BeeVee
01-09-2009, 07:58 AM
Notepad! :D

B

Cageman
01-09-2009, 07:59 AM
Name a program you use that has NEVER crashed, ever! I'm struggling! :)

Cubase and Renoise are pretty stable!! :)

bugzilla
01-09-2009, 09:16 AM
Name a program you use that has NEVER crashed, ever! I'm struggling! :)

I'm afraid I did not state my problem clearly. The way I wrote it, it looks like crashing is the main problem I am having with Lightwave. It does crash at random times, but that's just one more straw on the breaking back of this camel.

When I say instability I mean crashing but also the fact that many of the tools do not work correctly. For example, something as basic yet important as "Import Items from Scene". Like many people, I use this to import a scene with a rigged character. It will work the first time, but if you try to import the same scene again (example, a crowd scene), the bones are all messed up. The only choice is to copy the character once loaded, but then you have to copy all the goals and point all your constraints to the new goals. What a pain!

colkai
01-09-2009, 09:23 AM
Name a program you use that has NEVER crashed, ever! I'm struggling! :)

Heh, true, compare to LW, VS2008 is a bomb-fest, I can pretty much make it crash by having a couple of resource dictionaries open and daring to attempt to edit them! :p

...Somehow, I doubt MS would be as concerned about fixing said crash as Newtek, as to our current dev software supplier, there are bugs in there I highlighted and told 'em how to fix 12 years ago, no, I jest not.

Me likes LW :)

-EsHrA-
01-09-2009, 10:47 AM
jup, renoise for the win. :)

mlon

ben martin
01-09-2009, 10:54 AM
Sooner or latter all software crashes, no doubt!
But to me there is a line that delimits what is admissible and what is not.

Just a small tip... Its amazing how stable software can become by the simple fact of a fresh Win/OS re-installation.

I learned my lessons and have done a fully installed Windows XP + Addon Software Ghost.
It takes me only 5 min. to revert to a fresh clean installation point.

To me, this method alone already solved several situations specifically when other users couldn't replicate my problems... even when I was in beta testing phases.

It's very common, to almost all software installations, to replace ".dll" files (upgrade files) and sometimes those are shared libraries. Those new "dll" versions due to recent software instalations are enough to creat problems to previous installed software.

Just a though!

Tom Wood
01-09-2009, 11:07 AM
Name a program you use that has NEVER crashed, ever! I'm struggling!


Notepad! :D

Notepad has never crashed on me while using it for animation. :hey:

bobakabob
01-09-2009, 11:34 AM
I For example, something as basic yet important as "Import Items from Scene". Like many people, I use this to import a scene with a rigged character. It will work the first time, but if you try to import the same scene again (example, a crowd scene), the bones are all messed up. The only choice is to copy the character once loaded, but then you have to copy all the goals and point all your constraints to the new goals. What a pain!

Has this been reported as a bug? Are you using LW 9.5? I'm using this function in 9.3.1 with no problems.

bugzilla
01-09-2009, 01:56 PM
Has this been reported as a bug? Are you using LW 9.5? I'm using this function in 9.3.1 with no problems.

I am using 9.5. I've seen people on other threads having the same problem with this function. So I think it is a 9.5 problem and that Newtek is aware of it. So you see the problem. 9.5 has the good IK/FK blending tools but the import items from scene function is not working as it used to.

I've been learning more and more Blender and I think I'm going to animate entirely in Blender and use LW only for modeling and maybe some particle effects. I'd rather wrestle with the render tools of Blender than the animation tools of Lightwave is what it comes down to right now.

geothefaust
01-09-2009, 02:18 PM
Why don't you use 9.6? That bug was fixed.

PS- Blender is a great tool, certainly don't stop learning it! I too am learning it, and love it. (though the interface is a clutter****). :D

Earl
01-09-2009, 02:45 PM
I use Notepad version 5.1. The latest release, while it has never crashed, renders a little slower. Maybe it's an Aero thing?

bugzilla
01-10-2009, 09:18 AM
Why don't you use 9.6? That bug was fixed.

PS- Blender is a great tool, certainly don't stop learning it! I too am learning it, and love it. (though the interface is a clutter****). :D

9.6 does not show up on the download page so either it is not made public yet or I am not allowed to access it for some reason. I should be allowed to get all the 9.x releases.

Speedmonk42
01-10-2009, 09:47 AM
9.6 does not show up on the download page so either it is not made public yet or I am not allowed to access it for some reason. I should be allowed to get all the 9.x releases.

You can. You just need to sign up for the open beta if I am not mistaken.

But the software IS beta.

It is a very good way of doing things. How many versions has this been done for now?

geothefaust
01-10-2009, 10:32 AM
The whole 9.x cycle.

9.2
9.3.1
9.5
9.6

As Speedmonk42 said, you must sign up for the beta to download it. It doesn't require more then a few keystrokes. It's much more stable then 9.5.

Giacomo99
01-10-2009, 10:41 AM
I just want to echo what others have said—NewTek has been incredibly diligent about fixing bugs in the new releases, and 9.6 is enormously robust and stable compared to all previous releases.

As far as crashing goes, it's impossible to tell what the problem is without seeing some content. In my experience, all 3D apps can be pretty crashy until one gets a feel for the basic workflow.

BeeVee
01-10-2009, 03:23 PM
And you will be able to get 9.6 from your downloads page once it goes final, or you can join the beta and get it on your downloads page that way.

B

jaxtone
01-11-2009, 03:03 PM
And remember you can use your permanent license key to register the 9.6 version of Lightwave! Thatīs a lot better than the 30 day license key cycles!



You can. You just need to sign up for the open beta if I am not mistaken.

But the software IS beta.

It is a very good way of doing things. How many versions has this been done for now?

jaxtone
01-11-2009, 03:04 PM
Damn right! Itīs stable! Itīs fast... and itīs flyyyyy-ing!

P.S. It could have been flying even higher if the Collada interface was up to date!


I just want to echo what others have said—NewTek has been incredibly diligent about fixing bugs in the new releases, and 9.6 is enormously robust and stable compared to all previous releases.

As far as crashing goes, it's impossible to tell what the problem is without seeing some content. In my experience, all 3D apps can be pretty crashy until one gets a feel for the basic workflow.

mav3rick
01-11-2009, 05:44 PM
And remember you can use your permanent license key to register the 9.6 version of Lightwave! Thatīs a lot better than the 30 day license key cycles!

there is nothing wrong with perm keys ... common on betatesting apps

bugzilla
01-12-2009, 07:08 AM
Does anyone have a clear release date for 9.6? I don't do Beta software. I've had bad experiences in the past. I can't use 9.5 as it is right now. It's sad because we finally have decent IK/FK blending and parenting options now, but some of the basic tools have been broken in the process. I sent a bug report to Newtek about this. Is anyone else experiencing problems specifically with "Import items from Scene" on scenes with characters with bones?

cagey5
01-12-2009, 07:20 AM
I doubt anyone can give you an accurate release date, but I don't think I'm revealing anything new when I say it is very close. That close in fact, that even though you don't do beta you should join and download the latest version, it won't be very different to the final general release. It is very solid and stable and will do a much better job for you than your current version.

jaxtone
01-12-2009, 01:56 PM
Why do you say that? Sometimes I donīt get why you respond at all... but it might be a language problem as well!


there is nothing wrong with perm keys ... common on betatesting apps

jaxtone
01-12-2009, 01:57 PM
Well you have optional ways to solve the problem then! Great!

But I must tell you that 9.6 seems to be very stable!


Does anyone have a clear release date for 9.6? I don't do Beta software. I've had bad experiences in the past. I can't use 9.5 as it is right now. It's sad because we finally have decent IK/FK blending and parenting options now, but some of the basic tools have been broken in the process. I sent a bug report to Newtek about this. Is anyone else experiencing problems specifically with "Import items from Scene" on scenes with characters with bones?

dmack
01-13-2009, 02:56 AM
re the original post. Try Messiah for CA, I've not updated to the latest version (not doing much CA ast the mo) but the version before that was absolutely fantastic for CA. 'Connect' it via MDD for a pain free way to transfer animation. I've been so impressed by messaiah animate that I never even look at the lightwave CA tools. Maybe one day but messiah really has got the ultimate setup and animation tools I know. If they'd stuck to pure CA (not rendering) and marketed a lot more, I think they'd be a 3D household name now. Still, good app anyway.

Carm3D
01-13-2009, 04:41 AM
re the original post. Try Messiah for CA, I've not updated to the latest version (not doing much CA ast the mo) but the version before that was absolutely fantastic for CA. 'Connect' it via MDD for a pain free way to transfer animation. I've been so impressed by messaiah animate that I never even look at the lightwave CA tools. Maybe one day but messiah really has got the ultimate setup and animation tools I know. If they'd stuck to pure CA (not rendering) and marketed a lot more, I think they'd be a 3D household name now. Still, good app anyway.

Do they still use meta-effectors or can they use weight maps in Messiah now?

bugzilla
01-13-2009, 08:02 AM
re the original post. Try Messiah for CA, I've not updated to the latest version (not doing much CA ast the mo) but the version before that was absolutely fantastic for CA. 'Connect' it via MDD for a pain free way to transfer animation. I've been so impressed by messaiah animate that I never even look at the lightwave CA tools. Maybe one day but messiah really has got the ultimate setup and animation tools I know. If they'd stuck to pure CA (not rendering) and marketed a lot more, I think they'd be a 3D household name now. Still, good app anyway.

I had Messiah a while back and I have to say that I DESPISE that application. It's all about writing expressions. I know alot of people swear by it, but I just cannot wrap my brain around it. I have used either the full or demo versions of just about every 3D app out there and I've found that they all pretty much have the same tools. It's the way the tools are implemented that makes an application useful or not. The tools in Messiah are powerful but just do not work the way you would expect.

I started out using Animation Master (a.k.a. Hash). The animation and rigging tools were fantastic (unfortunately, the app was so unstable and the render engine so poor it's unuseable for true production) because they work the way you would expect. Lightwave has some tools that are simple and elegant, but others are not.

4dartist
01-13-2009, 08:27 AM
bugzilla, do you disable the hub? Learning to work in a non-hub workflow and killing the hub can save you a ton of crashes. (at least on the mac). Plus then you can run more than one LW at a time w/out problems. :)

I get a couple crashes a day at the most. Defiantly true for 3dsMax too though. And don't get me started on modo. :)

cresshead
01-13-2009, 08:57 AM
the best way to fix 'hub' problems would be to make lightwave 1 application...
please newtek!

4dartist
01-13-2009, 09:14 AM
As long as modeling and animation were still separated I would be happy. I love modeling with the object at it's origin w/out having to set a key there. I also love that when I change a key model, all my scenes that reference that model are up to date. I just don't want it to be like modo.

I am for less crashing though!

bugzilla
01-13-2009, 09:23 AM
bugzilla, do you disable the hub? Learning to work in a non-hub workflow and killing the hub can save you a ton of crashes. (at least on the mac). Plus then you can run more than one LW at a time w/out problems. :)

I get a couple crashes a day at the most. Defiantly true for 3dsMax too though. And don't get me started on modo. :)

Again, I misstated the main problem I am having. Yes, LW crashes alot. The main problem, though, is that there are many features which do not work correctly. The main one that concerns me right now is how Load Items from Scene is not working correctly. Every release there are key features which implode like this. I have gotten to the point where I do not trust the tools in LW to work correctly. That is the main problem I have right now.

4dartist
01-13-2009, 09:40 AM
Ah ok i see your point. I hope they can release a well tested unbroken version of 9.6, especially if it's the last 9.x. It may be the last straw for people who feel like you do.

cresshead
01-13-2009, 09:48 AM
As long as modeling and animation were still separated I would be happy. I love modeling with the object at it's origin w/out having to set a key there. I also love that when I change a key model, all my scenes that reference that model are up to date. I just don't want it to be like modo.

I am for less crashing though!

there are ways...
re objects at 0,0,0,
xsi has 'object view' which places your object at ,0,0,0
max has isolation which moves it temp to 0,0,0

re updates..max has x-ref and works over networks and 'sees' a new updated object a modeler may have just saved and an animatior working on a scene will get the updated model live as he works..you can also 'lock' a model so you can put modifiers AFTER but cannot change the base mesh if you want animator not to fiddle with the design...

if newtek implement some stuff like this then lightwave is set for a great future

jin choung
01-13-2009, 01:49 PM
there are ways...
re objects at 0,0,0,
xsi has 'object view' which places your object at ,0,0,0
max has isolation which moves it temp to 0,0,0

re updates..max has x-ref and works over networks and 'sees' a new updated object a modeler may have just saved and an animatior working on a scene will get the updated model live as he works..you can also 'lock' a model so you can put modifiers AFTER but cannot change the base mesh if you want animator not to fiddle with the design...

if newtek implement some stuff like this then lightwave is set for a great future

actually, i don't know any app where this would be a problem... i mean... who DOESN'T model at the origin?!

even if you wanted to do it lw style, you could just model in a blank scene at 000 and reference into your anim scene and it would be just like lwo to lws.... and this is in ANY of the big 5 apps....

jin

tyrot
08-01-2009, 07:24 PM
dear bugzilla

i wonder which application you are using right now for your character animation needs..

We are about to get a long term job -with lots of character animation shots- i really do not know where to start...

Messiah? Blender? Damn MAX? or staying LW with Jimmy Rig (for mocap shots) and wishing to solve the IK puzzle with IKbooster or native rig?

Time is the biggest concern for us right now and because i enjoyed and followed your tutorials in your youtube days..i really do wanna know where you joined...for character animation..

Best

Matt
08-01-2009, 07:29 PM
Whoah! Old thread! :D

dballesg
08-02-2009, 05:18 AM
dear bugzilla

i wonder which application you are using right now for your character animation needs..

We are about to get a long term job -with lots of character animation shots- i really do not know where to start...

Messiah? Blender? Damn MAX? or staying LW with Jimmy Rig (for mocap shots) and wishing to solve the IK puzzle with IKbooster or native rig?

Time is the biggest concern for us right now and because i enjoyed and followed your tutorials in your youtube days..i really do wanna know where you joined...for character animation..

Best

Hi tyrot,

Whatever route you decide, in case you decide to use LW 9.6 on character animation, buy yourself a copy of the RebelHill tutorials.

www.rebelhill.net

I got them a week ago or so, and they are invaluable to solve the questions about LightWave rigging with the native tools and PLG IK.

David

jaxtone
08-02-2009, 05:27 AM
I know that this has been discussed from time to time with different heat levels so to say! But I am splitminded though I really donīt see whatīs the biggest advantage of merging these both apps should be, can you tell me in which way you mostly would prefer these both to be one only?

Im not sure of when I been playing around in for example Maya this should have given me a better worksflow... Donīt you think there will be an even more confusing interface when adding all parts of the modeler into one solution?

In the craziest of worlds we may need one application for each light, each camera and so on... NOT! :D


the best way to fix 'hub' problems would be to make lightwave 1 application...
please newtek!

bugzilla
08-02-2009, 08:23 AM
I've found a really good workflow by using, of all things, Blender. It's free and once I figured out how to use it the speed and ease of use for CA is fantastic. It's way better than fighting LWs tools. It's free and you can simply export an MDD file with the animation back into Lightwave for rendering, one area where I think Blender is not as easy to use as LW.


dear bugzilla

i wonder which application you are using right now for your character animation needs..

We are about to get a long term job -with lots of character animation shots- i really do not know where to start...

Messiah? Blender? Damn MAX? or staying LW with Jimmy Rig (for mocap shots) and wishing to solve the IK puzzle with IKbooster or native rig?

Time is the biggest concern for us right now and because i enjoyed and followed your tutorials in your youtube days..i really do wanna know where you joined...for character animation..

Best

tyrot
08-02-2009, 11:01 AM
dear bugzilla

thanks for your input. I read from your earlier post that you really dont like messiah.From your point of view what is the most strong aspects of blender over Messiah or Max...

Best

bugzilla
08-02-2009, 01:35 PM
I found the whole Messiah interface to be strangely laid out. It's all about writing scripts and algorithms in Messiah. Also, the IK did the old "flipping" thing if you tried to move the character around too much. That has NEVER happened to me yet in Blender. The biggest thing is that in Messiah you cannot paint the weight of the bones by hand if you need to like you can with Blender. I spent all my time adding tiny bones to keep a few stray points from following the wrong bones.

Also, don't forget Blender is free and cross platform!


dear bugzilla

thanks for your input. I read from your earlier post that you really dont like messiah.From your point of view what is the most strong aspects of blender over Messiah or Max...

Best

dwburman
08-02-2009, 11:46 PM
I think the main things would be the ability to make and adjust vertex weights/morphs while you're rigging a character and can see how the deformations are being altered in real time, the potential ability to animate modeling functions, and the possibility to more easily animate on a per-vertex level.

Hopefully, the UI won't turn into the confusion that the Maya UI is (or at least appears to be when you first start using it).

I'm pretty used to having modeler and layout divided and I kind of like it that way, but I'm sure there are some good reasons to combine them.


I know that this has been discussed from time to time with different heat levels so to say! But I am splitminded though I really donīt see whatīs the biggest advantage of merging these both apps should be, can you tell me in which way you mostly would prefer these both to be one only?

Im not sure of when I been playing around in for example Maya this should have given me a better worksflow... Donīt you think there will be an even more confusing interface when adding all parts of the modeler into one solution?

In the craziest of worlds we may need one application for each light, each camera and so on... NOT! :D

Tranimatronic
08-03-2009, 01:05 PM
The biggest thing is that in Messiah you cannot paint the weight of the bones by hand if you need to


you can in v4 ;)

lwaddict
08-03-2009, 02:13 PM
Bugzilla,

Do you really think that switching to an open source app will be the end all of your problems? Blenders good but it's had it's bout with bugs and will again, as will all software.

You state clearly that 9.5 isn't working for you but then you state that you won't use the beta 9.6 because that's not your thing...uh...if 9.5 just isn't working for you then what's the holdup?

Just curious, since the thread goes on and on with people trying to talk you down when, from an IS standpoint, they should be screaming "Jump"... what I mean is, you've been offered enough solutions to try already but don't want to try them and came in with your mind fairly made up about Blender (I agree with you about Messiah though, ick) so do it.

On a side note...
Notepad's been fairly solid here but working to and from other apps like Excel and Wordpad gets cumbersome...
and the animation from Notepad is just passe when held up to RayDream.

bugzilla
08-03-2009, 03:23 PM
As I've said here in this thread, what has worked for me is to use Lightwave to model and render and use Blender as a sort of animation plug-in. There's nothing wrong with using multiple tools as long as they play together fine. I think the reason why this thread has continued is that Lightwave has many good tools, but it also has some extremely frustrating aspects to it. I think it's god for the LW community to air their frustrations so the developers will know what is driving us crazy.

I am using LW 9.6 now so I don't see an issue there. It fixed one major bug but still has the same core problems.

I don't get this "Jump! Jump!" attitude. This scares me because it reminds me of how the forums for Animation Master were when I used that. This kind of bunker mentality where you are not allowed to point out any fault with the software. And when is the last time you saw anything professionally done in Animation Master?

P.S.: I don't know what that jab about using Notepad was all about. Were you trying to make a point? Really?


Bugzilla,

Do you really think that switching to an open source app will be the end all of your problems? Blenders good but it's had it's bout with bugs and will again, as will all software.

You state clearly that 9.5 isn't working for you but then you state that you won't use the beta 9.6 because that's not your thing...uh...if 9.5 just isn't working for you then what's the holdup?

Just curious, since the thread goes on and on with people trying to talk you down when, from an IS standpoint, they should be screaming "Jump"... what I mean is, you've been offered enough solutions to try already but don't want to try them and came in with your mind fairly made up about Blender (I agree with you about Messiah though, ick) so do it.

On a side note...
Notepad's been fairly solid here but working to and from other apps like Excel and Wordpad gets cumbersome...
and the animation from Notepad is just passe when held up to RayDream.

Nemoid
08-04-2009, 07:58 AM
I think you just should list all the Lw animation problemsboth feature and workflow wise, may be with examples and images and submit them to hardcore forum, so that those can became features requests to submit to the team or at least suggestions about errors to avoid when designing the new animation system for CORE.
9.6 is the last Lw old fashioned version.

boomforeal
08-05-2009, 07:00 PM
In terms of loading items from scene. A plugin that I have found absolutely invaluable is 'load from scene plus'.

you can get it at

http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/layout.htm

I dont know why Netwek dont just make this standard as it enables you to import with all your schematics and kinetics in tact, and has saved me so much time.

Siegfried999
08-05-2009, 07:11 PM
Hi! :)

I created a dinosaur tail model in Lightwave and exported it in Blender.
I rigged the tail with no weight maps. I want to export MD2 script but I receive always the same message "Model doesn't have UV (face or vertex) or sometime it want to create triangles. I don't understand...it's the first time I export in this format.

What I'm doing wrong?

Thanks
Bob