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pixelforce
12-30-2008, 11:48 AM
Hi there Lightwave users!

I have been a C4D user for a number of years and have fallen behind in my upgrade - of which has no become an $1800 investment. I am about to download the LW demo (MAC) to try it out but wanted some opinions from LW users.

I found C4D incredibly easy to learn and use - what is the learning curve like for LW?

What should I expect LW compared to C4D?

What is it like to texture in LW?

How stable is Vue 7 xStream within LW?

Can I export a decent model with textures to use in Vue7?

Is LW just the initial investment - then I will need to purchase a bunch of modules to get the "good stuff" like particles, smoke, hair etc...?

I don't do much character stuff - mostly Arch Viz and effects for broadcast and such. Any insight to this rash decision would be greatly appreciated.

Lee

Mitja
12-30-2008, 12:48 PM
Hi there!

-LW is pretty easy to learn, at least easier than max! You can learn a lot on this forums, and there are lot of useful video tutorials around here.

-Dunno, never usd c4d! LW has one of the best natives renderers around, and I think it's better and faster than c4d.

-In LW you can texture the "classical" way or with nodes. It's pretty easy though.

-I think xstream has still some bugs, but others will say more.

-Vue can import directly the lwo/lws format, so you can import/export whatever you want.

Particles, hair... are all there already, ready to use, no extra money for them. The new hair system is really cool! You'll see.

If you do arcviz there are some 3rd party plugins you may want to consider, like KRay (renderer), LWCad (modeling tools), FPrime (previewer/renderer). Check their websites.
Hope I helped you somehow! And happy new year!
Cheers!

Verlon
12-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Learning curve in Lightwave? I like it. I like the words instead of the icons. How do you icon a julienne, for example? Others call the interface 'quirky' or 'unique' (in that left handed, condescending sort of way). With the download, you can experience the UI for yourself. In the end, keyboard shortcuts will be your friend.

I don't own C4D, so I can't compare them effectively. I can say bodypaint looks really cool, and I don't have that. You can expect lower upgrade prices. :)

There are two texturing systems in Lightwave. The traditional method and the new node based textures. Both are powerful. You can animate anything. Gradients and procedurals abound, if you like them. Unless you get into really really large textures, image maps have not been a problem. If you do like gigantic image maps, infini-map will help.

I have Vue 6 Xstream. I have not yet bought Vue 7 (considering it, but not yet). I have no more issues running xstream than I do running V6. If you can deal with Vue, LW will seem rock solid in comparison (my opinion of Vue is that is is amazing, when it works, but it can be a difficult child to play with).

Yes, you can export your LW models and texture them in Vue. I have done this. Vue doesn't like some kinds of polygons (like 2 point polys). You'll need to clean those up.

No, LW comes pretty much all in the box. It is NOTHING like C4D in that regard. LW's hairs, particles, animation, and what have you all come in the box. There are some REALLY good plugins that you might consider depending on your needs....

1. FPrime (http://www.worley.com) is a real time preview and ALTERNATE renderer. I do not use it for renders. I use it as a previewer to help with lighting and texturing.
2. LWCad (http://www.wtools3d.com/) is an incredibly handy set of tools, and not just for buildings and such.

Neither of these plugins are mandatory. You can do great work without them. I find them useful, and others maychime in on that. You can do everything they do without them, but I find it takes me quite a bit longer.

There are quite a few actual arch-viz guys here, and I am not one of them. Exception (forum name here) comes to mind. While I do not agree with all his opinions, he does work in that field and could provide more answers than I. There are others, if you look around.

What we do have is a really nice community, at least most of the time.

I hope you enjoy the LW demo, and let us know if you have questions.

wacom
12-30-2008, 01:11 PM
First off- keep in mind this is an opinion based on the current LW- once 10 is out quite a bit of this will most likely change. If I were you I'd wait and see what's in store- as much of what you learn now...might be somewhat moot or different soon!

C4D IS very easy to use IMHO, probably easier than LW for a new user on certain fronts.

However, depending on what your needs are, LWs initial price maybe all you need to spend.

On the texturing side, there is no "bodypaint" for LW. Look to programs like 3D-Coat (http://www.3d-coat.com/texturing_sculpting.php?un=6879) to fill in any gaps and add even more functionality (http://www.3d-coat.com/texturing_sculpting.php?un=6879&page=voxel_sculpting). Its support for LW is very good.

On the plus side- the LW procedural texture set, esp. when you augment it with the free nodes etc., is VERY robust as is the render tree. C4D still has no render tree, and so you're at the mercy of shader writing coders still for a lot that can be done in LW via the tree.

C4D's preview engine is nice and well integrated. While some here will say you can get Fprime or the like, it's an expensive option for LW, and the support can be lacking. I'd pass on it if you can and tough it out the old fashioned way.

As far as rendering goes, LW really does have a nice render engine with plenty of options. While not always the fastest (nor is C4D's) it can do just about anything you need it to do esp. when you throw in the rendertree. The fact that they've opened up the api for things like lights has seen a huge boon in improvements. C4D does have micro poly displacement that works more like you'd expect (though in my testing it was REALLY SLOW) while the LW solution is fast...pending you're not doing a huge scene with it and a limited amount of RAM!

LW9, while having newer guts, is still feeling a little 6.0 and dated in terms of integration and UI features in comparison to C4D IMHO. This will more than likely change VERY quickly with the LW10 cycle as that's supposed to be a extremely big release of the new code base and future UI etc.

C4D has an pseudo operator stack of sorts (doesn't really go as far as MAX, XSI, or Houdini) but LW currently doesn't have anything like that. However, it's more than a rumor that LW 10 is going to at least have a stack, if not be nodal. Even cynical me would be shocked if that's not in 10...

As far as modeling goes- well it's a personal thing really. LW, though lacking good support for N-gons and edges still that is on par with other programs (another thing to change soon) is still a very solid modeler. Keep in mind you could still do some modeling or all of it in C4D if you find it's too cumbersome to learn LW9 modeler while you wait for LW10.

However- if you do architectural modeling and rendering be sure to check out a plugin called LWCAD- it will cost you, but it's an amazing viz tool.

Rigging and animation in LW is getting better- maybe in some ways better than C4D, but I still would give C4D the edge if you have cactus dan's stuff or mocca 3. If you don't do a lot of intensive character animation then this is a moot point IMHO.

Particles are solid in LW IMHO. Nothing earth shattering, but there are a lot of features there that will get you through most things well- and they are flexible. While there isn't a thinking particles type of thing for LW that's as well integrated as the dated one for C4D, I find LW very good for the day to day particle needs- and very easy to use on that level.

In the end, it's up to you trying it and seeing what you think. The LW user base, like the C4D one, is very friendly and helpful with probably the lowest RTFM post rate out of any application!

beverins
12-30-2008, 02:13 PM
>>What should I expect LW compared to C4D?>>

From what I have seen and played with, C4D is an all-in-one program. You never have to leave the interface, all you have to do is select a new module. Lightwave has the layout and the modeler, connected with a small application called Hub which seems to work over a local TCP/IP (firewalls pick it up). Some people hate the two-app approach, some love it. Search for threads on that, there are a lot of them.

You may find the Dual App current design to grate... or not. :devil:

>>What is it like to texture in LW?>>

I think LW's texturing engine is fantastic and very open to experimentation. Even if you don't use Fprime and instead rely on the VIPER previewer, texturing with Lightwave is as fun as you are willing to let it be. Try presetcentral for some great presets to get you started.

>>How stable is Vue 7 xStream within LW?>>

Vue 7 is stable in 9.5.. dunno yet how it will be for the final 9.6 coming soon. The LW Vue is missing the ecosystem painter and one or two other features that the C4D version has. You can still ecosystem-paint in Vue itself, though, if you open the interface for Vue. You just can't yet do it in the LW Layout interface.

>>Can I export a decent model with textures to use in Vue7?>>

Vue has direct LWS and LWO import and export, plus there is an excellent plugin that attempts to bring over motion data from LW to Vue for rendering in Vue.

>>Is LW just the initial investment - then I will need to purchase a bunch of modules to get the "good stuff" like particles, smoke, hair etc...?>>

Depends on what "good stuff" you want. I consider FPrime a must-have, but it doesn't work at all with Vue. For Arch-Viz, you definitely need LWCad. HOWEVER... LW has everything pretty much built in for the price if you are willing to be patient and learn the tools. The reason I say that is because I see new discoveries all the time on these boards by people who were trying out new tools in different ways.... and achieving output that others thought was "impossible" with Lightwave. I suppose this goes without saying on all 3D software, of course, but seems that Lightwave is much more open to experimentation to see what is possible.

You should go to the http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/training.php page and watch the videos, they will show you what I mean. :thumbsup:

For Arch-Viz I think LW is one of the top tools out there, especially if you can spring for the LWCad 3rd party plugin as well (Modeler can hack it on its own without the plugin, but LWCad brings very nice tools to the table that make it even easier)

pixelforce
12-30-2008, 03:11 PM
WOW! Great intel.!

I've done some more research on LW and it looks pretty good. As well, I have looked at LWCad and that is too looks great. FPrime is PPC only for Mac - no UB :( I am going to look into the other stuff you guys mentioned and be back with more questions I'm sure.

The biggest drawback I can see right now is that the modeler is a separate app. Electric Image was this way when they introduced their modeler and I didn't like it very much. Then the dropped their modeler all together :( hope that doesn't happen to LW. Yes C4D is a great environment to work in but has it's drawbacks.

I'm not really sure what the workflow is like between the two apps. and why you would need a TCP/IP connection between them.

Oh does LW support multipass rendering? couldn't find that listed as a feature.

What is the Companion Upgrade?

Will be back later with my shopping list to see if what I have chosen makes sense. Thanks for the help!

Lee

kojean
12-30-2008, 05:09 PM
What is the Companion Upgrade?
The Companion Upgrade is a discounted price for a full version of LightWave for owners of qualifying competitive products, which currently includes C4D. You will have to enter your C4D serial number when ordering.

Dodgy
12-30-2008, 07:30 PM
There aren't any plans to drop the modeler as far as anyone is aware. It hasn't really had much done to it the last few years, but LWCAD fills most of its shortcomings, and it's still a reasonable modeler on its own. LW 10 shouldn't be too far away, but no-one knows what that'll bring. LW uses the TCP IP to communicate between modeler and layout, so as you change a model in one, the other gets updated.

Layout does have various outputs for multipass rendering.
Also, it's worth mentioning the huge number of free plugins which are available, many of which extend LW's capabilities a lot, especially with nodes, which can be used in all sorts of areas, including getting output for multipasses.

AbnRanger
12-30-2008, 08:00 PM
Normally I would say stick with C4D. I don't know what version you have, but if it is 10.5 then there aren't that many reasons to upgrade to 11.
The particle system in C4D (Thinking Particles) is more robust, and it does a much better job with volumetric shaders (smoke, clouds, fire, etc) with PyroCluster built in...which is very similar to the venerable plugin, Afterburn, in 3ds Max.
With C4D, as of R10, they now have an FPrime of their own (interactive preview renderer) built into the Advanced Render. BodyPaint being integrated makes it a very tough package to compete with.

Having said that, with LWCAD 3, HD Instancing, FPrime (I believe the staff has been working hard to get FPrime tied into the UB version, but it may be worth it to run LW in Windows via Bootcamp in the meantime) and LW's new lighting and rendering improvements, it's a very economically sound choice for an Arch Viz freelancer or small studio.

It's certainly worth buying a Companion Upgrade license along with LWCAD, and incorporating it into your workflow as you learn it. If the $1800 C4D upgrade really is an issue, then LW, LWCAD, and FPrime is a good answer.
They are wrapping up the LW 9 series, and are due to speak about the new direction after the first of the year. I suspect that merging or integrating modeler and layout will be a high priority. It has outlived it's purpose for being separate in the first place, and keeping them divided presents a range of development issues/headaches. So, stay tuned.

pixelforce
12-30-2008, 09:33 PM
I am not a freelancer but own a small studio - used to be pretty big for NH USA but scaled things way back - after 13 years - and now do the stuff I like to do.

I am at C4D version 9.1 Studio and have found I just can't stay there any longer. I was ready to do the upgrade, and ordinarily the $1800 would not be an issue. But having just upgraded to Adobe CS4 Master Collection ($900), about to purchase Vue 7 xStream ($1200) Poser Pro ($500) New rear disc brakes on my truck ($600) Plus I need a half decent architectural solution without the price tag of Archicad or AutoCad - I can't keep modeling architecture in C4D - it's stupid

That's why LW seems so attractive.

This is what I have decided - feedback is welcome.

My System: Mac Pro 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core - 6 GB RAM - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT - 30" + 20" Cinema Display

- LW Companion Upgrade
- LWCad
- XRay

- Vue 7 xStream
- Poser Pro

Someday I will get current with C4D and have a pretty good solution.

Thanks for the help!

Lee

Snosrap
12-30-2008, 09:53 PM
I think you can "cross-grade" to LW from C4D for some crazy low price. Around $395 I think. I agree with what most have said, but it still comes down to the artist as most apps have the capability to deliver great art. What you can afford and what app feels right is the way to go. Most of us here think LW feels right, so we use it.

Cheers
Snosrap

hrgiger
12-31-2008, 02:38 AM
Newtek said that they're going to be announcing after the first of the year what's next in Lightwave development. Why not wait until then to make your decision.

The Dommo
12-31-2008, 04:12 AM
They did? I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for that then. Cheers HRG!

cresshead
12-31-2008, 04:24 AM
Newtek said that they're going to be announcing after the first of the year what's next in Lightwave development. Why not wait until then to make your decision.

I'm quite eager to hear what they have to say about lightwave 10 and the direction it's going to take..i'm hopeful it's going to be some fantastic news that'll stir up the pot so to speak!:):lwicon:

DiedonD
12-31-2008, 04:34 AM
Should I switch from C4D to LW?

Yeap you should! :D











There I said it, was very tempting and was ignoring it till now.

LW is also easy to learn. Theres a post about Houdini's fire particles and such, and by comparison LW is WAY easier to learn than that.

Basically, and I know this by experience, if anyone would just screen grab his make of anything in modeler, and have it be animated in LW, would be good enough for a foundation for you to build you own way afterwards.

But you can start from free tuts, free tips and tricks designed for you that youll find on my signature below. And if you prefer you can find used DVD tuts, or even buy some from Larry Schults (AKA SplineGod) and or Dan Ablan.

Youll build knowledge in less then 2 weeks, just keep away from books for the time beeing.

pixelforce
12-31-2008, 06:55 AM
Newtek said that they're going to be announcing after the first of the year what's next in Lightwave development. Why not wait until then to make your decision.

That's what others have been saying, but this is also a business decision and will contribute to my tax right off for the year. I would think the upgrade price would be pretty inexpensive if 10 comes out in January of maybe February. If later, well the current upgrade price is $395 so I might as well get the tax benefit this year and begin learning - 'cuz who knows how long it will really be...

Another thing - How soon could they be to releasing 10 if the Mac demo is still at V9.3.1 and have a statement that 9.5 for Mac is coming soon? This is not very encouraging. Maybe PC users will get 10 and Mac users will get something else.

Anybody try LW in Boot Camp or Parallels?


I thought that "Companion Upgrade" was if you already have Lightwave and wanted an additional copy.

"Competitive Upgrade" is for those with competing products - i.e. C4D.

This is what I thought - and so I asked here. But the online shop states that it's a full version and I need a qualifying product (Softimage XSI, Maya, 3ds max, Cinema 4D, Modo, After Effects, Photoshop, Shake, Digital Fusion) Who wouldn't take advantage of this - everybody has at least one of these. And look what the price break is doing - it moving me from C4D to LW. If LW were the same price as C4D, I'd stick with C4D - it's what I know.

Maybe I'm foolish - maybe I'll hate LW and end up upgrading C4D anyway - but at the very least I will end up with another tool in the toolbox and an $800 solution for modeling my archviz projects.

Happy New Year to all

Lee

Tonttu
12-31-2008, 08:23 AM
Even if you didn't have a competing product, you could get a really good deal from someone selling their LW license (eBay or forums).

AbnRanger
12-31-2008, 09:24 AM
You've love LWCAD, no doubt about it. 3ds Max is about the only other program that can rival it. Make sure to catch the new video tutorials covering FiberFX. One of them shows how to quickly build a tree and branches (using the MagicBevel tool), then use FiberFX to quickly create and position leaves. You, of course also use it for grass and such.

This is a decent place to get up to speed in LW before you get involved in more advanced topics (there's an Advanced LW modeling course there as well)
http://www.vtc.com/products/LightWave-3D-9-tutorials.htm

archijam
12-31-2008, 10:33 AM
This is what I have decided - feedback is welcome.

My System: Mac Pro 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core - 6 GB RAM - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT - 30" + 20" Cinema Display

- LW Companion Upgrade
- LWCad
- XRay

- Vue 7 xStream
- Poser Pro

Someday I will get current with C4D and have a pretty good solution.

Thanks for the help!

Lee

I was going to suggest pretty much the setup you suggest.
You won't go wrong with LWCAD, which has its own very robust snapping, imports, etc etc.
As you may be aware, KRay also has it's own render-instancing (similar to VRay's proxies). Till now its use has largely focussed on interiors, but the new version and current forum activity is all exteriors, and looking good.
People have suggested FPrime , but it's not (yet) out for the UB (Intel Mac) except under emulation.

If you used C4D's archi packs, then you probably had a large material library included - this is not really the way LW comes packaged, there is some onis on the user to build their own library (for some reason - I personally think they should charge a little for it like Maxon). There are however GREAT LW specific texture resources, such as preset central, which is also a good way to get some nice Nodal setups to play with.

Enjoy! ;)

jaxtone
12-31-2008, 11:36 AM
Hi there Lightwave users!

I have been a C4D user for a number of years and have fallen behind in my upgrade - of which has no become an $1800 investment. I am about to download the LW demo (MAC) to try it out but wanted some opinions from LW users.

I found C4D incredibly easy to learn and use - what is the learning curve like for LW?

What should I expect LW compared to C4D?

What is it like to texture in LW?

How stable is Vue 7 xStream within LW?

Can I export a decent model with textures to use in Vue7?

Is LW just the initial investment - then I will need to purchase a bunch of modules to get the "good stuff" like particles, smoke, hair etc...?

I don't do much character stuff - mostly Arch Viz and effects for broadcast and such. Any insight to this rash decision would be greatly appreciated.

Lee

I would like to say that SUPPORT always been the weekest link in Lightwave. Totally worthless if you are a non US user!

The latest years Newtek Europe has been a great source to information of problem solving issues. But of what I´ve heard they´re gonna sack the strongest link there. That worries me a lot since I live on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean if you need Lightwave support.

For people like yourself that I assume lives in the US there have been more positive words about the support team. But now remember that it´s a great difference in what you crave from a support team depending if you belong to producers that work with major projects or if your´r a crew in the fantasy of the Space Ship Mob!

Cageman
12-31-2008, 11:51 AM
I would like to say that SUPPORT always been the weekest link in Lightwave. Totally worthless if you are a non US user!

The latest years Newtek Europe has been a great source to information of problem solving issues. But of what I´ve heard they´re gonna sack the strongest link there. That worries me a lot since I live on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean if you need Lightwave support.

OR... you involve yourself with the community (that is, this forum and SpinQuad)... I have NEVER had to contact NewTek support to solve an issue. Either I figured things out for myself, or I simply popped a question here on the forums. Simple!

Sekhar
12-31-2008, 12:25 PM
OR... you involve yourself with the community (that is, this forum and SpinQuad)...

I completely agree. NT/LW forums are fantastic, probably the best I've seen, with *lots* of knowledgeable/helpful folks - if you ignore the occasional pointless threads/bickering, of course.

archijam
12-31-2008, 12:51 PM
The forum is a veritable treasure trove of helpful users, information and .. Those guys. ;)

pixelforce
12-31-2008, 02:26 PM
The first thing I did before I purchased C4D is look for a good support forum - the crew over at c4dcafe.com are great!! Their help was tremendous, and with plenty of challenges to get me to learn the software. So needless to say I looked to see if LW had such a supportive and knowledgeable group - and voila - here it is! Over the years I have given back to c4dcafe, offering support and knowledge in areas I understand.

Like Cageman - I have never had to look to the manufacturer for any support. Ok I did have to call Adobe once for an install issue but that's it.

So as long as you guys can tolerate me being an idiot for a while - I'm in. Who knows maybe someday I will be good enough to return the favor.

Lee
ps. Yes Jaxtone, I am in the US

Cageman
12-31-2008, 02:50 PM
Like Cageman - I have never had to look to the manufacturer for any support. Ok I did have to call Adobe once for an install issue but that's it.

So as long as you guys can tolerate me being an idiot for a while - I'm in. Who knows maybe someday I will be good enough to return the favor.

Lee
ps. Yes Jaxtone, I am in the US

The cool thing with the LW-community is that everyone has been in the "I feel like an idiot" situation. Not all of the members share their trade-secrets, but some of us do...further more... some of us also drives some of the third party coder-talents into making tools that aid creating certain types of things. They then release their stuff for free or for very little money.

It's awesome, really!

aSkeptic
12-31-2008, 06:36 PM
My advise is thus:

get the free trial version of 9.5, it is non crippled it does everything. Try to do something that is a challenge in c4d and see if lightwave is as bad better or worse. I bought c4d a long time ago for just one task and it was a blind gamble and I lost. It didn't do what I wanted. So I sold my copy and recouped some of my costs. But if I had a free trial like newtek has provided I wouldn't have made that mistake.

If you are looking for a program that does dynamics well, then try lightwave, you'll surely be disappointed if you are used to programs like Maya. But in my opinion lightwave excels in the rendering and shading department. I can't live without lightwave modeler. It really is nice. Lightwave + 3d coat is an unbeatable texturing team.

But don't buy lightwave until you've tested the hell out of it. You've got that luxury thanks to newtek's 1 month trial. That should be enough to sell the program. Lightwave does some things extremely well and other things not so good. I'm no lightwave fan boy. Heck while you are at it try blender.. If you can get used to it's highly non standard interface it is has a lot of nifty features. I use its sequence editor for my lightwave renders. Ironic but hell it works great!

Try a lot of common tasks with lightwave. See what does and doesn't annoy you. One thing that might make it easier for a c4d user is that lightwave's interface is very customizable. You can set any hot key, any menu item, you can rearrange the interface anyway you want. Make it like c4d if you want ;)

kopperdrake
01-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Hi pixelforce - just to answer you, we run LW 9.5 on Intel Macs here both as an OS X app and under Bootcamp running XP Pro 64 (running LW 64 bit PC version) and it's fine. LW's Mac version I believe hasn't been great in the past but with our very own Mac dude developer Chilton on the job the Mac version seems to be getting better and better. I'm hoping to move from Bootcamp to OS X across all machines soon :)

Nicolas Jordan
01-01-2009, 07:35 PM
I apolagise if any of this was mentioned already. Didn't have time to read all the posts.

Yes of course by all means switch to Lightwave unless you don't mind paying more for what you get with C4D. Cinema 4D is a great program I have played with it a bit here and there but to get all the fancy features together it just ends up costing way to much compared to Lightwave.

The only add ons you might consider getting are all 3rd party and include FPrime, Lightwave CAD and HD Instance. None of them are really needed though since they just make doing certain types of work faster and easier.

adamredwoods
01-01-2009, 07:53 PM
I really like Cinema4D.

But honestly, I found Lightwave to be easier on the wallet. I bought Lightwave back with LW8.5 and it has been a very solid investment. Maxon's modules and upgrades get to be rather pricey after a while.

Try out the demo, see if you can model a few things and get the hang of the interface. Be aware that great strides have happened since that 9.3.1 demo.

AbnRanger also pointed out some good difference between the two. The other is that the modeler in Lightwave is a separate app-- both good and bad. If Layout crashes, modeler is still open, and vice versa. Also, it minimizes the number of buttons and GUI clutter. Modeler also does not have a history stack, which can be frustrating, but LW has layers which means you can isolate what you're working on in one layer, then copy/paste into another later for final assembly.

Good luck in deciding, they're both great tools.

akrantz
01-22-2009, 09:37 PM
Well, seeing as this post is almost a month old, no doubt by now you have made your decision. It is an interesting subject to me and I have recently gone through he same debate. I have been a Lightwave user for a long time but I recently bit the bullet and purchased C4D. For the last few months I have been taking classes to learn it. The two apps are very different in the way they approach 3d. From my perspective I would have to say that they both have strengths and they both have weaknesses. I am very accustomed to the way Lightwave modeling works and it has been challenging to me to learn the method for doing similar things in C4D. That being said LW has nothing even close to the motion graphics functionality of C4D. In the end I have to admit that I feel as if C4D R11 is a stronger app overall. Pretty much the only thing LW does that C4D cant do is LWCAD. And if you are big in to architectural modeling thats probably enough right there. As others have said LWCAD is fantastic. I really don't see why Newtk just doesn't buy that plug in. Anyway thats my two cents.

dmack
01-23-2009, 02:16 AM
Wait 12 days and you might have your answer! :)

JBT27
01-23-2009, 02:39 AM
Be curious about the announcement, as you are not yet a LW user, but don't base your decision on what might be. If you prefer C4D, then buy that.

The great crit of C4D seems to be that once you've bought into all the modules, it is very expensive - that's my view, having looked at the website and assessed the cost every now and then.

That said, my license of LW cost me hundreds of pounds more than the list price because I kitted it out with what I deemed to be essential extra tools missing from the core app - HDInstance, LWCAD, Fprime - but that's a common experience with LW (and probably a few others out there).

LW's pricing policy is undoubtedly changing - we've all been 'warned' about that, and the announcement is eagerly awaited. Quite when we will see the first signs of LWX we'll just have to wait and see.

From the outset though, buying into 9.6 will probably be a cheaper option, even if you add LWCAD - if that's important to you, and you have seen that C4D has nothing like that, then perhaps you should consider LW.....

Julian.

Darth Mole
01-23-2009, 02:45 PM
I used to own C4D but bailed early last year because the upgrade costs were crippling. Sold it on ebay, took a loss but am happy that it's no longer clogging my HD.

With almost no exceptions there's nothing I couldn't model, texture, light and animate faster - and often better - in LW. I can build a stupidly detailed spaceship in LW in an afternoon; C4D would take... I dunno. Maybe weeks.

LW's new render is lightning quick - and I don't really optimise much; just click on radiosity and let my 8 procs burn through it.

Don't get me wrong: C4D is some very smart software, but after a long, long time, LW is finally out of the doldrums and heading somewhere good. Great community support, nice little line in plug-in authors and some great training DVDs and books. I own modo too (supposedly the clever new kid on the block), and LW still blows it away for most of the tasks I need in terms of speed and ease of use.

slacer
02-07-2009, 03:54 AM
I made a competitive upgrade from my Cinema 4D XL which I bought in 1999 to LightWave 9.6 this week :)

It is a kind of time jump.

andywright
02-07-2009, 04:16 AM
Well I have Cinema4d 11 with all the modules and LW9.6

I find modelling more intuitive and free feeling in C4D and the realtime preview is more representative of what you will get in the render, and the interactive renderer is better than Viper.

The history stack and way you associate objects and properties is easier in C4D too as its drag and drop and visual. And the property sheet is more interactive.

I find that texturing is a lot more powerful in LW 9.6 and it is capable of a lot more complex materials easier.

The renderer is faster in LW for many things, and its output was better until the 11 upgrade where the advance render module improved C4D's output a lot. Bodypaint is very good, and again improved in V11.

The one thing you can't ignore though is C4D is very expensive, and for the price you could get LW with a lot of plug-ins that make it as powerful. The only drawback of LW plugins is they don't always work on everything (e.g Fprime) where C4D modules are very integrated and merge into the main program seamlessly.

My current opinion is that C4D with its modules is easier to use and more powerfull than native LW9.6 with its plugins except for render quality / texturing and possible Fiberfx is better than C4D Hair/fur.

BUT ...... I have just joined HardCORE because I just can't shake the feeling that I like LW, and CORE looks like it will bring the program up to date and i hope match C4D's feature set (instancing, cloth, 3d paint, drag and drop properties etc). In addition, I like NewTek's atttude to its customers, Maxxon is very distant and money grabbing in comparison. I think LW is now on a fast track to be something good :thumbsup:

silviotoledo
02-07-2009, 04:57 AM
Lightwave is an amazing software for doing generalist work.

For me, the advantage of C4D over LW is:

1st) better tools for doing flying logos

2nd) possibility to use V RAY as renderer

On the other things LW have more advantages over C4D.


Do a test drive 1st in both applications and choose wich one you are more confortable to work with.

bjornkn
02-07-2009, 05:44 AM
One thing that is really bad about Maxon is their pricing policy, where they punish their customers hard if they skip a version number. That really p***ed me off so badly that I refused to have anything more to do with them some years ago.
I switched to LightWave, and have never regretted it :)
I also work mainly in archvis, where LW works great.
For modelling I mostly use SketchUp, which is a fantastic modeller that works pretty well with LW.
And now, with the CORE coming soon, it looks like there is very bright future ahead :)

pixelforce
02-15-2009, 10:56 AM
I am very accustomed to the way Lightwave modeling works and it has been challenging to me to learn the method for doing similar things in C4D.

Funny you should say this. I have found LW MOST CONFUSING - makes me feel like an IDIOT. I can't seem to get past creating a box and selecting a polygon. With imposing deadlines I had to put things off and been away from the forum, but today I download 9.6 (mac) and am back to pounding my head on the desk.

I have looked at hours of tutorials but I can't wrap my apparently puny little brain around the basic functionality of LW. I follow the tutorial and have to stop because I have polygons selected and seem to be stuck. Saying to myself how did he those and grab another. I don't understand why you can't select a polygon, and click on a different one and have it deselect the previous one.

If C4D had a LWCAD solution I would have ponied up the dough by now. I was about to purchase Form-Z but I to spend that much money for an ArchViz solution doesn't make much sense. bonzai 3d was just announced (by Form-Z) but I would rather figure out the thought process behind LW and use LWCAD because everything I would create in bonzai 3d would have to be exported to render.

LW seems like a GREAT solution for me. LW - LWCAD - VUE Infinite - it perfect if I can get beyond the simple box and actually create something.

It seems like so many steps to create and edit an object - constantly have to switch tabs and select/deselect/select polys and points. AAAARGH! I know once I get the concept of the app all will be ok, but man - THIS IS NOT LIKE C4D AT ALL.

archijam
02-15-2009, 12:44 PM
I had the same experience coming from ACAD/3DSMAX to LW .. it wasn't until I saw the way Exception (forum member) used modeler that it clicked, and then it was easy to see the benefits of modelling in LW - and how much time I had wasted in MAX (tho I'm sure it's improved since then)..
It really helps to see the "modelling logic" of a program in action.
For example, I never knew I could move individual points without selecting them - ctrl-G - until I saw Taron's Gnomonology video on organic modelling .. which I recommend, for it's unique mix of being simultaneously impressive and depressing ;) ($25 btw)

colkai
02-15-2009, 01:37 PM
LW seems like a GREAT solution for me. LW - LWCAD - VUE Infinite - it perfect if I can get beyond the simple box and actually create something.


That's really bizzare as LW for me was the only package where I could do just that from the get-go.
Question, what are you wanting to create? How are you going about it?
I came from a package that was 'boolean based' so I made a huge mistake in my modelling methods.
Seriously, if you want to produce an awesome model in LW, first go and dip through some "basic" tutorials from here
http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/Main_Menu.htm

Then tackle something like this...

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281

I NEVER thought I'd be capable of doing anything like that, but I found it easy to follow and recommend it to just about everyone.

andywright
02-15-2009, 03:52 PM
It seems like so many steps to create and edit an object - constantly have to switch tabs and select/deselect/select polys and points. AAAARGH! I know once I get the concept of the app all will be ok, but man - THIS IS NOT LIKE C4D AT ALL.

:agree:

Thats why I prefer C4D for modelling....it is a lot closer to working with 'clay'. I find it more intuitive in the way you select/deselect polys and the tools work more intuitively. Hexagon works in the same way also.

I am hoping CORE will move more towards this approach, tear off toolbars so the tools can be grouped easily as I want is a good start.:D

andywright
02-15-2009, 03:58 PM
Then tackle something like this...

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281

I NEVER thought I'd be capable of doing anything like that, but I found it easy to follow and recommend it to just about everyone.


Thanks for this...just the sort of project I was looking for to get my skills in LW modelling better :D

colkai
02-16-2009, 02:21 AM
Thanks for this...just the sort of project I was looking for to get my skills in LW modelling better :D

Trust me, as impossible as it seems to get that Serenity anything like, you will amaze yourself as you work through it. Sean takes it step by step, tackling each piece but never 'dumbing down', you will have to think for yourself at times, but they are always there for help. :)

archijam
02-20-2009, 03:28 AM
If C4D had a LWCAD solution I would have ponied up the dough by now. I was about to purchase Form-Z but I to spend that much money for an ArchViz solution doesn't make much sense. bonzai 3d was just announced (by Form-Z) but I would rather figure out the thought process behind LW and use LWCAD because everything I would create in bonzai 3d would have to be exported to render.

Bonzai3D does indeed look interesting, with nurbs support etc. and aiming to grab the sketchup crowd, but i would also be wondering about the separation from the renderer .. nurbs are great but difficult to exchange between formats outside .stl etc.

I wonder if Markus or any of the FormZ users can share any info from the Bonzai3D beta experience :thumbsup:

http://bonzai3d.com/