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norlight
08-10-2003, 06:12 AM
Looking at the upgrade offer to Lightwave 8 with the DFX+bundle I do feel a bit left out in the cold by Newtek. From what Iīve found out the DFX+ SW is Win only.

If the upgrade price to LW8 is the same for both Win and Mac I do feel itīs a bit unfair.

Anybody know whatīs going on here or if itīs just me that has missed out on some relevant information?

:confused:

Ade
08-10-2003, 09:57 AM
We sometimes wonder if mac is in newteks longterm agenda.

riki
08-10-2003, 10:12 AM
The idea is that you can sell you seat on ebay, which helps reduce the cost of the overall purchase.

Ade
08-10-2003, 10:17 AM
yeah thats a great idea.
I think theough NEWTEK should bite the bullet and endorse FCP for the mac side seeing we dont have toaster and make packages with FCP.

me myself am looking at buying LW8 soon with a g5.

Triple G
08-10-2003, 01:06 PM
I was under the impression that the DFX+ you get with your purchase is tied to your LW dongle...is this not the case?

norlight
08-10-2003, 02:31 PM
It seems I havenīt missed anything essential. I can understand that the win-world being larger itīs possibly easier to find companies for bundle-deals.

What makes me wonder is that Newtek must have spent a considerable amount of money developing LW for Mac & furthermore OSX.

With the recent significantly intensified battle for customers (i.e. the Maya prize-drop) in the 3D-world it makes Newtekīs strategy hard to understand. In my opinion Newtek needs to support the LW Mac-world different.

Either do it, or donīt!

Regards from Norway,
norlight

TyVole
08-10-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by riki
The idea is that you can sell you seat on ebay, which helps reduce the cost of the overall purchase.

The DFX+ deal is indeed tied to your LightWave dongle. You cannot sell the seat.

In the early days of the deal they were shipping dongles with DFX+, but no longer.

Beamtracer
08-10-2003, 04:14 PM
Newtek promotes Boxx computers (running Windows) as their preferred machines.

They promote Digital Fusion (Windows only) as their preferred compositing application, even though more Lightwavers use Adobe After Effects. There is now a forum section devoted to Digital Fusion.

If you pre-order Lightwave 8 for Mac, it gets bundled with Digital Fusion's little brother, DXF+, which is also Windows only. Useless for Mac users, in fact it could be taken as being insulting.

It would be easy to get the impression that they'd prefer it if you were using Windows. :(

noiseboy
08-10-2003, 04:51 PM
I read with interest that Digital Fusion is in Beta testing for Linux OS, surely then its not a huge step to OS X (naive assumption probably). I too looked at the deal as being poor for the Mac user, and it was also suggested to me that the software could be sold to recoup the cost of the upgrade ( by the venerable and higher respected in my mind CB). Alas with the news that its tied to the LW dongle that scuppers that plan.

luka
08-10-2003, 07:01 PM
well it would of been nice if they select something that was cross platform. It just creates a negative for the mac side:(

qwerty99oz
08-10-2003, 07:39 PM
Not only is the bundled useless for Mac owners, but the price of the upgrade has gone up by around $200 Aus dollars.


So I get to pay more and get a bit of software I can not use.

Great customer service there.

Still waiting for a reply to a message I sent Newtek on this around a month ago.

denny
08-10-2003, 10:16 PM
Heck, I would be happy to just have the "Non" DFX+ deal price back. Let me spend my $100 on a nice plug-in for LW or something like that, instead of buying a $100 box of software that will sit on the shelf, seeing I can't sell it and recoup my $100.

I agree it is a great deal for those with Windows machines, but I am not one of those.

You would think a simple fix to appease the Mac LW upgrades would be to drop the price back down that extra $100. That's an easy one.

Oh, I called and they said no.

Ade
08-10-2003, 10:20 PM
i always ask myself how long it would have taken to fix the modeller open gl bug if it were on the pc side...
I wouldnt be suprised if theres some agreement with BOXX to concentrate more on pc LW than mac.

Darth Mole
08-11-2003, 01:14 AM
Given the number of posts on this forum, and the huge number of different posters, I can't image that the user base of Mac LW users is too small to care about.

But NewTek seems to be doing a fine job of alienating them. I refuse to believe they couldn't have cut a deal with Adobe, Discreet or even Apple on a suitable alternative to DFX. And it doesn't HAVE to be a compositing or effects package; hell, what about Poser 5 – or as I suggested ages ago, a really good collection of LW plug-ins...

But what's really starting to worry me is NewTek's reticence to even discuss these matters – no-one on these boards seems able to even get a response out them, let alone any positive action...

Wouldn't it be nice to have a post from Tim Jenison or someone, reaffirming NT's stance on the Mac platform?

Ade
08-11-2003, 01:19 AM
In the meantime modeller keeps crashing, ppl keep getting more upset, moral drops...

Didnt see or hear of any features in LW8 that made us mac ppl feel accepted.
Newtek is wasting their time trying to get windows users, most of them use 3DS because of its autocad nature, the rest use Maya.

Well thats spoken from an Australian point of view, anytime one mentions lightwave , many always say "hey thats on osx right"....?

In melbourne many UNI's are running Maya and LW on macs, no pc's.
I feel this alienating is why Luxology was formed.
The original team must have had enough or taking a back seat to politics.

luka
08-11-2003, 07:03 AM
I sure would like to hear what Newtek have to say about the LW upgarde and why mac people where left out?

BrianW
08-11-2003, 07:44 AM
I think the reason why NewTek hasn't said anything to this post is because even though we b**ch as Mac users, we still buy LW Mac! Well, I am not upgrading to 8. I am tired of being treated like this. I have been using Maya PLE for around 5 months and have decided to go the Maya route. Sure Maya doesn't have all the functionality of LW, but, they are committed to Mac and OS X. And for what I use 3D for, Maya has all I need(excellent animation controls). I think the only way NewTek is going to keep my business is to either drop the price or bundle LW Mac with a Mac only application like FCP 4, no-if-ands-or-buts about it!

Brian W.

Jimzip
08-11-2003, 07:50 AM
Hmm. I thought I already posted on this thread. Must've been a different one..

Oh well.

Maybe a price drop for Mac users would do the trick. Nothing too drastic, just enough to compensate for the lack of VT?

I'm not too fussed.. I'm upgrading to 8.0 when I get enough money and I don't really feel that cheated about VT anyway.
Upgrades are always cheaper than buying outright obviously, so maybe making it cheaper isn't an option..

Just a thought.

Jimzip :D

mrunion
08-11-2003, 10:35 AM
OK, even though I'm a Windows user (stuck with it because I have Windows-only stuff) and don't have a Mac, I don;t understand what the issue is.

Forgive me if I understand any of this wrong (I'm just a newbie), but here goes:

The upgrade price for LW 8 is $495. That's it. The UPGRADE TO LW 8 is $495. You get DFX+ for FREE. They are not charging you $395 for LW8 and $100 for DFX+.

Just tell them to keep DFX+ if you want -- the UPGRADE is still $495.



Also, I know people are vocal and want what they want. I appreciate every opinion expressed, but some seem slightly skewed. I used to NEVER want to touch Windows. I STILL don't prefer it. I didn't like the PC platform either. I wanted to stay with Commodore. I harped about Commodore and how PCs sucked. Imagine if I had stayed with them. I wouldn't have a job doing what I'm doing!

Sometimes we make decisions we don't like because HAVE to. That's what being an adult is about.

If you love a Mac, then use it. If you don't want to upgrade, don't. If you want to start a business and cater only to Mac, do that too. I am a programmer and know that "porting" to Mac is difficult. I also know that if you plan ahead it can be made "easier" to do than if you just try to get around to it later. But PCs are so dirt cheap you can get one that will run DFX very decently for about $400.

The bottom line is that businesses do what they think they need to in order to make money and stay alive. Any of you PC and Mac owners out there that says you do business just to cater to whomever hollars louder is probably not being truthful. Newtek will do what they will do. Mac users will buy or not buy. PC users will buy or not buy.

There are choices. Make one and stick to it!

denny
08-11-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by mrunion
The upgrade price for LW 8 is $495. That's it. The UPGRADE TO LW 8 is $495. You get DFX+ for FREE. They are not charging you $395 for LW8 and $100 for DFX+.

Just tell them to keep DFX+ if you want -- the UPGRADE is still $495.

I understand what you mean and keep thinking about buying a cheap PC to handle some other things too, but for now, I am not.

The upgrade WAS $395 until they started this promotion. They increased the price $100 when they added DFX+. It DOES seem to me that they are charging $100 for DFX+. I was going to upgrade days before this deal came out only to log on and see the price went up and I am getting some PC software for my Mac.

LW upgrades have been $395 for one step for a while. If $495 is the new pricing structure, then Newtek say so. I couldn't get an answer out of anyone if the upgrade price will drop to $395 after the promo ends.

I just don't want to get burned and upgrade for $495 today, and find out next month when the promo is over they drop the price back to it's old price.

denny
08-11-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Jimzip
Hmm. I thought I already posted on this thread. Must've been a different one..

Yep, there was an entire other thread going on a few weeks ago. Much of the same discussion with no real answers.

serpicolugnut
08-11-2003, 05:47 PM
Notice that a recap of Siggraph is up now, and there are LW 8 screenshots posted. All PC, of course.

Me wonders if selling my copy of LW 7.5 (and all books) would garner enough to get and education discounted seat of Maya 5.....

mrunion
08-11-2003, 07:03 PM
denny:

OK, I understand now. Upgrades WERE $395 and now that the new DFX+ deal is around, upgrades are $495. I see what your point is.

Yeah, if upgrades just merely went up $100 with or without DFX+, it'd be nice to know before either missing the deal or spending extra.

Cool. Thanks for the info.

Ade
08-11-2003, 07:08 PM
NEWTEK really needs to get their act together and form a mini unit in NEWTEK called "mac team".

Like this they can listen to what we want, fix bugs and test freaking installers for updates when theyre released... 7.5b was really bad, for mac morale..... seriously not testing an installer...cmon...

mlinde
08-11-2003, 09:00 PM
Geez.

Ok, so Newtek offers a compositing application bundled with LightWave. On the Mac you have what, three choices? Commotion, After Effects, and Shake.
Only one of those 3 is available at a sub-$1,000 price point, and does anyone expect that Adobe would bundle any software for free?

It's not Newtek's fault that it's impractical to offer a free compositing application. And before you start crying for Final Cut Pro, why would Newtek bundle a competing video editing program when they sell the Toaster?

If there was enough competition in the Mac compositing marketplace, I'm sure there would be a similar offer.

Triple G
08-11-2003, 09:41 PM
THANK YOU, mlinde! I mean, seriously...the amount of complaining that goes on in this particular forum is to the point of being ridiculous! I'm a Mac user too, but come on...no one's twisting our arms to buy the upgrade offer...if you don't want it, don't buy it...simple as that. I highly doubt the people at Newtek are sitting behind their desks trying to find new and unusual ways to screw their Mac customers as some of you make it sound. I honestly believe that Newtek saw an opportunity to present a great deal to its customers with this bundle...it just so happened that the bundled program was PC-only. Yes, that's a little disappointing if you don't own a PC, but as Mlinde pointed out...I believe that's simply due to the fact that there aren't enough competing companies in the Mac marketplace to make a similar bundle available to Mac users.

Now let's all get back to work and focus on the tools we do have, instead of complaining about those that we don't!

luka
08-12-2003, 02:01 AM
Oh so sorry mlinde and Triple G but maybe you should try looking a bit harder and you will find their are a few more choices for mac than you think

entry level compositing (http://www.apple.com/finalcutexpress/)

toby
08-12-2003, 02:26 AM
And After Effects 6 is only 700 bucks, half of what they claim DFX+ is worth. Or a Worley plugin - something

When a company starts to neglect half of the people who will potentially buy LW (based on last years' sales) as well as all the people who've patronized them for years, there's going to be some complaining. It's a crappy thing to do when it's unneccessary.

What if they plan to drop the Mac version alltogether? Do you think it's ok for them to throw away all the time and money you've spent on LW, or forcing you to get a pc, for no apparent reason? Do you have 2 grand floating around to buy a crippled version of Maya? I don't.

They were stoked at the change to OSX, sold a record # of Mac copies, but now they act like we're not even here?

This wouldn't be a big deal to me, if this had only been the first, second, or third time this has happened, and with the follow-up apologies and promises to Mac owners of course.

lord
08-12-2003, 04:15 AM
seems like an act of a desperation, not much foresight, just do something real quick.



----------------------------------

thought I'd pop by, cos I'm

missing my Mac. :(

----------------------------------

toby
08-12-2003, 04:22 AM
I was thinking about that too.... they lost the major programmers, who are set to release some very competitive software - maybe they plan on putting Mac development on the shelf, focusing on making the pc version more competitive with Maya and Lux -

lord
08-12-2003, 04:43 AM
Possibly broader market reasons than just the ex team competition.

As soon as they posted the deal, I wondered how the Mac LightWave community would react.

I havn't really explored DFX much, just another comping app is all, I don't really care about it that much (though I spose I'll find that it's got things I'd quite like) what I did think though was that it wasn't much of an incentive for Mac users.

Personally I think sometimes we see more value in something that's free than something that costs, specially if the thing that's free normally costs a bit, and then there's the huge let down when you (and the others in your half of the population) can't use it.

Human nature, the damn thing sits there eating away at your good natured, reasonable self.

I think it was a foolish promotional thing. They would have been better off without any "extra software deal at all". Just dosn't seem like good marketing practice, particularly after the hoo har around the 7.5 and counting updates.
Would have been better to do an exclusive Mac only bonus deal to smooth public relations.

errr , ramble ramble,

forgetting to put in those IMHO bits.;)

Beamtracer
08-12-2003, 05:28 AM
Nothing is for free.

I'm sure that Newtek and Eyeon (DXF makers) would have split the revenue made on the deal. That means that users did pay to get DXF bundled in.

Each party would make up the revenue difference by increasing their unit sales.

I think the deal was a really bad move.

Right now is a critical time for Newtek with the Luxology split. It's not a good time for them to ignore their Mac customers. The competition is too fierce to drop the ball now.

serpicolugnut
08-12-2003, 06:23 AM
Here's my take on LW's attitude towards Mac users....

We were heavily courted back when LW 6.5 was set to be one of the first 3D apps ported over to OS X. Newtek sold alot of Mac licenses during that 6.5-7.0 time frame. Alot of users quickly came to realize through use and through these forums, that the Mac version was lacking some parity with the Windows version, not to mention, it has some serious, well documented bugs.

Mac users started complaining quite loudly. Newtek attempts to calm them down, but inaction continues to bewilder most of us.

At the time of the 7.5 release, Newtek starts selling LW as a dual platform package, with a duo upgrade only $100. Many Mac users ante up, because they would rather just load up LW on a PC then have to relearn another 3D.

I'm not crying conspiracy here, but I do believe Newteks dual platform strategy was created to stop unhappy LW Mac users from jumping to another package.

This, combined with Newteks lack of PDA for the Mac (that's public displays of affection folks) really makes me wonder where the Mac fits in with their strategy. Most of the Luxology guys are Mac fans, and I wonder if when they left, Newteks affinity for the Mac went with them. Certainly, issues like the 7.5b release and lack of reassurance from someone high up don't do anything to assauge that concern. Did Chuck leave for Luxology too?

lord
08-12-2003, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Nothing is for free.

I'm sure that Newtek and Eyeon (DXF makers) would have split the revenue made on the deal. That means that users did pay to get DXF bundled in.

Each party would make up the revenue difference by increasing their unit sales.


Sure, that may be the case but for LW users it essentially means that they're getting their LW as per price with this DXF thrown in, unless they're already using DXF.
No you're right Beam nothing is for free, especially it would seem for the Mac user.

Hrrrmmmm.....

theosmekhanes
08-12-2003, 06:59 AM
I think Chuck is dead...

or maybe sacked...

or maybe he left to train for a marathon... pphhht, who am I kidding!

denny
08-12-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
I think Chuck is dead...

or maybe sacked...

or maybe he left to train for a marathon... pphhht, who am I kidding!

I hope your statements are meant in humor? Regardless of the opinions of "How we would run the Mac division of Newtek", is no need to start making personal attacks or singling out someone.

What would happen if he was dead? Ok, not trying to be morbid, but I hope your comments are in jest. They're not that funny or relevant to the issue at hand, unless he really did leave for Luxology, which I really doubt.

Karl Hansson
08-12-2003, 07:27 AM
There are some very good points in the last few posts. I also have those same concerns. Basicly will LW8+ be available for the mac at all? If not I hope they have the decency to say so before people fork out their hard earned money for another upgrade. I would like to hear a statment from newtek about the future of LW on the mac. Chuck... anyone... hello...

Jean-Paul Lar.
08-12-2003, 10:57 AM
I second that ...hello anyone there...the sound just echo's, wait is that the answer no its just my words echoing back ....."hello anyone there"...:mad: :mad: :confused:

toby
08-12-2003, 01:46 PM
very good points serpico.

Chuck
08-12-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Nothing is for free.

I'm sure that Newtek and Eyeon (DXF makers) would have split the revenue made on the deal. That means that users did pay to get DXF bundled in.

Each party would make up the revenue difference by increasing their unit sales.

I think the deal was a really bad move.

Right now is a critical time for Newtek with the Luxology split. It's not a good time for them to ignore their Mac customers. The competition is too fierce to drop the ball now.

The deal was a really great move that has resulted in incredible sales for us and for eyeon. The competition is too fierce to miss such a great opportunity with a large number of new and upgrade customers in any portion of the current and the potential userbase.

We certainly do need to see if we can provide a great value add opportunity for Mac LW users, and we've received some great suggestions on this forum in that regard. Those and others are being explored.

Chuck
08-12-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
I think Chuck is dead...

or maybe sacked...

or maybe he left to train for a marathon... pphhht, who am I kidding!

Actually, I was away at SIGGRAPH for a week, and then on vacation for a week. Been back since yesterday, but busy catching up with all sorts of things. Yesterday I spent a pretty good part of the day going through mail, and lots of the new Mac beta folks we've recruited had sent in their paperwork, which I've processed. Today I need to send a heads up to the beta coordinator so we can get those guys added and busy on testing.

Darth Mole
08-12-2003, 04:17 PM
Now THAT is the reply of a man at peace with himself. If it was me, I'd have kicked Theosmackhead off the damn board...

Rude little man.

Beamtracer
08-12-2003, 05:18 PM
I must say I also found theosmekhanes' post offensive. I don't like to see personal attacks on anyone and hope that it gets deleted.

js33
08-12-2003, 07:20 PM
Really Beam you should do a better job of keeping your Mac troops inline. :D

Cheers,
JS

lord
08-12-2003, 07:40 PM
Firstly I wish I'd been able to ignore theosmekhanes remarks as easily as Chuck did, and they wern't even directed at me.


Originally posted by Chuck
The deal was a really great move that has resulted in incredible sales for us and for eyeon. The competition is too fierce to miss such a great opportunity with a large number of new and upgrade customers in any portion of the current and the potential userbase.

I disagree. Perhaps it did increase your sales, but it also marginalised your existing Mac users. Who already feel marginalised in a PC dominated world.
Personally I don't see that as particularly good marketing practice, which ever way you look at it.



We certainly do need to see if we can provide a great value add opportunity for Mac LW users, and we've received some great suggestions on this forum in that regard. Those and others are being explored.

IMHO the LW Mac users have been incredibly patient. and I'd be doing an aweful lot more to make it up to them.

I'm not trying to be rude but I think your quote should read....


We certainly will provide a great value add opportunity for Mac LW users

get rid of the see if we can.. bit and I think you'll be on the right track.

Cheers,

Looking forward to the future lightwaving...

policarpo
08-12-2003, 08:27 PM
we just need to get Eyeon to port DFX+ to OSX everyone!

How do we go about it? Come on...can anyone create a petition form that we can all vote on and send to eyeon? Not the standard voting form, but a real petition form like there was when everyone wanted Maya on OSX.

if they are afraid of marketshare on OSX, they can test the waters with DFX+ and see how it fares.

No reason to give Apple the free ride on the high end of the compositing market. :)

Beamtracer
08-12-2003, 09:46 PM
I worry that Windows-only promotions like BOXX or DXF+ will have the end effect of lowering the percentage of Mac users in the Lightwave user base.

policarpo
08-12-2003, 09:57 PM
Nah...if NT is smart, they'll offer G5's with LW installed as well.

No reason to limit themselves.

Now go forth NT and make the Apple connection.

:)

Beamtracer
08-12-2003, 10:58 PM
Now a G5 with Lightwave preinstalled would be a good move.

policarpo
08-12-2003, 11:26 PM
Well ya know...if they don't, we know who will. :D

Beamtracer
08-12-2003, 11:47 PM
Electric Image did a similar promotion about a year ago. With every purchase of Electric Image they "gave" away a "free" Apple iBook laptop computer.

The iBook was the cheapest model on Apple's list. Regardless, it was a tempting offer. I would have thrown Electric Image in the trash and kept the iBook! ;)

policarpo
08-12-2003, 11:58 PM
yeah, i remember that promo.

NewTek should really look into something like that as well.

They should be getting every new freshman who buys a PowerBook to get a copy of LW for OSX with it.

Hell...they should just convince Apple to sell their product on their site too.

Ade
08-13-2003, 09:37 AM
Newtek should sell a mac version of Lightwave that doesnt have the modeller freeze "feature"... That would be nice...:D

policarpo
08-13-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Newtek should sell a mac version of Lightwave that doesnt have the modeller freeze "feature"... That would be nice...:D

Hahaha...here here!

I now model as if i am walking on pins and needles. i save every 5 seconds for fear of the modeler freeze.

i hope someone let's us know if the 9800 drivers will work on the PB 15" 1ghz models that ship with the 9700 radeon cards. :)

HollowHull
08-13-2003, 11:00 AM
As hard as it is for me to say this but as mac users we don't really matter where like a stepchild that you want to go away sure them want our money but we are not worth any extra trouble if they really gave a dam about anything we say someone would reply you know someone is reading this for them they just don't care I fill ripper off with my purchase of 6.5 I got a half done product and what do they say to me when I have problems with features you should update to 7 for another 400 buck but what are we going to do

mlinde
08-13-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by luka
Oh so sorry mlinde and Triple G but maybe you should try looking a bit harder and you will find their are a few more choices for mac than you think

entry level compositing (http://www.apple.com/finalcutexpress/)

Final Cut is not.. wait, let me repeat that once more, with emphasis...NOT a compositing application. It is a video editing application. Luka, there are a big differences between what FCE/FCP or AE/Comm/Shake do. FCE is, if anything, a lower priced, Mac-based competitor to Newtek's own Video Toaster.

DaveW
08-13-2003, 01:40 PM
I think some of you guys are oversimplifying things here. The DFX+ deal was a good move for NewTek, they would've been completely stupid not to have taken Eyeon up on that deal. I can understand that Mac users are feeling left out, and NewTek needs to find a similar deal for Mac users. But that is easier said than done. Why would Apple bother bundling anything with LW? They already have a monopoly on video editing for the Mac platform. There is no reason for them to bundle FCP or FCE. Shake is far too expensive to include, although I could see Apple bundling Lightwave with Shake upgrades. But again, Apple has the monopoly on high-end compositing on the Mac, so there's really no big incentive for them to bundle apps. Discreet is a competitor, so even if NewTek decided to try bundling Combustion for Mac users, it's likely Discreet wouldn't be interested. It's also possible that bundling Combustion would upset Eyeon, since they're also a Discreet competitor. The same thing goes for Adobe, and also IMO Adobe is a pretty crappy customer and I seriously doubt they would be interested in bundling AfterEffects for Mac users. They also have a pretty healthy marketshare in low-end compositing for Macs, so there is little incentive to include AfterEffects with LW upgrades.

Bundling plugins is a good idea though, of course then it's likely PC users would get upset that they don't get any free plugins, as a lot of PC users getting the DFX+ deal don't really use compositing apps. I know Mac users wouldn't care about that (just as PC users don't care that Mac users can't use DFX+) but it's something NewTek needs to consider.

The Boxx deal I must've missed, unless you're just referring to the fact that Boxx will pre-install LW for you. The relationship between NewTek and Boxx is a good one IMO. Boxx is a respected 3d workstation vendor and having LW associated is good for NewTek. And it's good for Boxx, as LW users are more likely to get a Boxx workstation. Having LW preinstalled on G5's would be a good thing for NewTek, but all it does is create hassle for Apple. They're not in the business of catering to 3d pros. And any Mac user who does 3d is already going to get a G5 from Apple since there are no other vendors to choose from. Where is the incentive for Apple to bother preinstalling LW? It's possible NewTek could try to strike a deal with an Apple reseller, that would probably be easier to pull off.

And why are people bringing up the modeler freeze bug in here? WTF does that have to do with bundling software? And isn't it a video card driver bug anyway? Is NewTek supposed to start writing video drivers now? And the post about lack of PDA is just retarded. You want NewTek to give you a hug and a kiss on the cheek? I think you need to see a therapist. What NewTek needs to do is make the Mac LW as stable and feature complete as the PC version and keep it that way.

Ade
08-13-2003, 01:46 PM
Lightwave bundled with a PDA, thats a good idea.:D

policarpo
08-13-2003, 01:50 PM
:rolleyes:

pc/mac here my man...;)

HollowHull
08-13-2003, 02:23 PM
just had to say dave w had a very good point

Beamtracer
08-13-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by DaveW
The relationship between NewTek and Boxx is a good one IMO.... ...any Mac user who does 3d is already going to get a G5 from Apple since there are no other vendors to choose from. Where is the incentive for Apple to bother preinstalling LW?

I disagree. I think there is an incentive for Apple to do a bundle deal with Newtek.... if it is offered to both Mac and Windows Lightwavers.

Something like Shake is really expensive. Not many people have it, but everyone wants it. What if a half-price Shake was offered to both Mac and Windows Lightwavers. It would be the perfect switch campaign for Apple.

Apple is very cautious about bundling deals. They would love to bundle their high-end software and hardware together. For example, a G5 computer bundled with Final Cut Pro or DVD Studio Pro, or even Shake.

The reason Apple is not bundling its own hardware and software is because they are afraid of upsetting other software developers, in particluar Adobe.

However, if a double software bundle (ie Lightwave + half price Shake) was seen to be coming from Newtek (rather than being an Apple hardware bundle) it may be more acceptable.

For the same reason, Apple may be interested in a deal that bundles Apple hardware (ie the G5) with a 3rd party software product (ie Lightwave).

What if there was a deal in which Apple sells G5s with Lightwave bundled at a lower cost than what the two items would cost separately. Apple's incentive is that it would be an reason to buy a G5 rather than a Windows box.

HollowHull
08-13-2003, 05:17 PM
I'm not sure mac cares about us 3d users too much we are not the focus I don't think we pull a lot of money for them

DaveW
08-13-2003, 06:21 PM
You make some good points beam, I didn't think of using a bundle deal to convert Windows users. But I'm still not sure how attractive that deal is to Apple. First, consider the tiny 3d market. Then consider that LW is but a small percentage of that already tiny market. Then consider the number of people who want another seat of LW and are willing to pay $2500 for Shake and pay at least $2000 for a G5 and completely change their platform. I do think it would attract some new users, but I don't think it would be a whole lot. Probably not enough for Apple to consider it worth the time and money it would take to make such a deal available. I think Windows users who are interested in compositing are more likely to take advantage of the DF4 and LW deal, as DF4 compares pretty well to Shake (from what I hear anyway) and it wouldn't require a platform change.

Giving users a price break on LW8+G5 would be cool, but I think it is a better deal for NewTek than for Apple and again I doubt Apple would feel it's worth their time. That doesn't mean NewTek shouldn't at least try. I think it would be better if they also gave price breaks for LW upgrades, not just new seats. I still think they would have better luck with reseller rather than Apple.

lord
08-13-2003, 07:31 PM
Apples got Maya to rave about. Maya's got the right kinda flavour? that fits with Apples if you know what I mean. It just looks like it belongs on OSX.

Maya's got a higher profile too, rightly or wrongly, which I think Apple likes.


...but we are not worth any extra trouble if they really gave a dam about anything we say someone would reply you know someone is reading this

;)

http://www.oneglasseye.co.nz/stuff/ntmac.jpg

Sorry if anyones offended but I couldn't help it.:)

TyVole
08-13-2003, 08:16 PM
Did you do that in LightWave?

lord
08-13-2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
Did you do that in LightWave?

I wish!;)

Beamtracer
08-13-2003, 08:47 PM
If Newtek had two huts in the desert full of people doing nothing else but Mac development I'd be very happy!

I don't know what percentage of Mac to Windows users Newtek has, but you could estimate. Alias said that 25% of their user base is on Mac. The new unmentionable competitor also said that they are aiming for 25-35% Mac users.

Just after LW7 was released Newtek said they got more orders for Mac than Windows. This may have been a spike, but it shows the potential.

A DigitalMediaNet survey recently found that just over 50% of all content creators are using Mac. This figure includes both 2D and 3D. Once again it shows the potential, as it is this group that all 3D software makers should be aiming for.

For a company like Apple, who's niche is content creation, users of 3D software are more valuable customers. 3D drives sales of high-end machines. Office workers and users of MS-Word and MS-Excell or Powerpoint don't need a fast machine. Even Intel has admitted that 3D users are who they'd like to attract.

So a bundle deal with Apple hardware would be very attactive to Apple, especially if it was offered to Mac and Windows users.

A software bundle deal with Shake is also valuable. Because so many people aspire to own Shake but can't afford it, a discounted price on Shake+Lightwave would be enough to make some Windows users switch to the Mac. Good for Newtek, even better for Apple.

toby
08-13-2003, 08:49 PM
funny!! :D

policarpo
08-13-2003, 09:00 PM
what is really impressive is that mental ray is available on OSX under maya for $1999.00. Renderman will be shipping for OSX. Wings3D provides a RIB exporter...3delight is available under OSX. Softimage is considering the Mac platform...and other developers are embracing it with a frenzy (C4DXL is rock solid under OSX).

i think some big winds are kicking up and when the G5 lands our pocket books will guide us to the pastures where it can do the most damage for our buck.

Let's hope the NT ears are pressed firmly to the ground, cause a new revolution is picking up momentum...and when it kicks into full swing, you can only go with the force, and not catch up!


the experience economy (http://www.managingchange.com/masscust/experien.htm) is going into full swing.

:)

Beamtracer
08-13-2003, 09:41 PM
I agree, Policarpo.

Look at Alias. Maya has 25% Mac user base.
This is despite the early bugs.
This is despite a lack of a "complete" version.
This is despite a lack of graphic cards.
This is despite it running slower on a G4.

Now... what if these teething problems were solved. The G5 is much faster. It'll have more graphic cards. etc etc.
The 25% Mac user base can only go up, as the Mac is still the preferred platform for creative professionals (DMN survey).

Then look at Newtek. Probably somewhere between 25-35% Mac user base.
This is despite software bundle deals like DXF.
This is despite hardware bundle deals like BOXX.
This is despite Lightwave promotional videos being Windows-only.

My point is that Mac users have had to jump a lot of hurdles to use 3D, yet the percentage of Mac users remains significant despite this.

With the advent of the G5 most of those hurdles will be gone. The Mac will become much more attractive for 3D work. The situation "snow-balls" and gathers momentum as those other 3D companies (ie Pixar etc) embrace the Mac.

Because the planets are now aligning in Apple's favor (software, OS, hardware) the Mac 3D market will become more significant. There is absolutely no doubt about that. With a bit of nurturing Newtek could take advantage of this to their own benefit.

policarpo
08-13-2003, 09:52 PM
http://www.policarpo.us/samples/image_is.jpg

Chuck
08-14-2003, 09:13 AM
I'm just a tad leary of doing anything feverishly these days, but maybe that comes of hitting the high side of 50... ;)

policarpo
08-14-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
I'm just a tad leary of doing anything feverishly these days, but maybe that comes of hitting the high side of 50... ;)

Hahahah...okay...then coolly....like a miles davis of software then. :)

But OSX support and concentration needs to be launched out of a cannon over there ya know! It's too great of a platform to not completely exploit!

luka
08-14-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by mlinde
Final Cut is not.. wait, let me repeat that once more, with emphasis...NOT a compositing application. It is a video editing application. Luka, there are a big differences between what FCE/FCP or AE/Comm/Shake do. FCE is, if anything, a lower priced, Mac-based competitor to Newtek's own Video Toaster.

Hi ya mlinde
Yeah I know it's not an AE compositing prog but it's definitely got a lot closer.
read on.
"5. Multi-Layered Photoshop File Support Final Cut Express fully supports Photoshop files and layers within your video projects. When you import your Photoshop files, Final Cut Express will present them as a multitrack video sequence, with each Photoshop layer placed on its own fully editable video track. Then you can use the compositing and key framing capabilities of Final Cut Express to build amazing motion graphics. Since you’re basing these motion graphics on Photoshop images, you can maintain a consistent look between materials such as web-pages and printed matter and your video creations." qoted on apple.com

I was just trying to show there are packages for mac users. it's a good price for US$299.00

Chuck
08-14-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by policarpo
But OSX support and concentration needs to be launched out of a cannon over there ya know! It's too great of a platform to not completely exploit!

We completely agree! We brought the first 3D app to OSX and we intend to make sure we are the most kickass 3D app on OSX.

policarpo
08-14-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
We completely agree! We brought the first 3D app to OSX and we intend to make sure we are the most kickass 3D app on OSX.

That's great to hear!

mlinde
08-14-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by luka
Hi ya mlinde
Yeah I know it's not an AE compositing prog but it's definitely got a lot closer.
read on.
"5. Multi-Layered Photoshop File Support Final Cut Express fully supports Photoshop files and layers within your video projects. When you import your Photoshop files, Final Cut Express will present them as a multitrack video sequence, with each Photoshop layer placed on its own fully editable video track. Then you can use the compositing and key framing capabilities of Final Cut Express to build amazing motion graphics. Since you’re basing these motion graphics on Photoshop images, you can maintain a consistent look between materials such as web-pages and printed matter and your video creations." qoted on apple.com

Well, I just fired up my new FCE, and attempted to import an image sequence so I could apply DOF to it, like I would with AE if I wanted dynamic DOF, and it imported the images all right, but not as a sequence.

I'm not saying FCE isn't a good application (I'm just starting to play with my new copy), I'm saying it does different things than DFX or AE or any other compositing application. If you render straight out to Quicktime from Lightwave and you don't do massive compositing of graphics and text and video, you don't need a compositing application, and that's fine.

If you look at the spec sheet for FCE (or FCP) and the spec sheet for the Toaster, they do VERY similar things. Once again, why would Newtek bundle software that competes with their own products, regardless of platform?

As far as bundling the standard version of AE, why would Adobe bother? They have bundles of their own, and a huge chunk of the market already. I'm not saying it wouldn't be great for some sort of bundle for Mac OS X LW, but if you are looking for a comparable bundle to DFX, you can't look at FCE or FCP. Adobe wouldn't do just one platform (why let a competitor have the PC bundle?) and would be highly unlikely to do a bundle anyway, and the other Mac compositing applications sit way above the $1,000 mark.

The best possibility would be an Apple Authorized reseller who could configure machines for 3D, utilizing the application & hardware of choice, but since Apple limits customization by anyone but themselves, this isn't likely either.

toby
08-14-2003, 03:21 PM
it'll import an image sequence - just drag the folder into the bin and then to the timeline

crpcory
08-14-2003, 10:45 PM
Enough with the compositing bundle for mac (or lack there of). Honestly, i find it strange no one talks of discreets combustion. For the price, you could buy it and a LW8 upgrade for the price of the AE production bundle (more or less). The program is so rich and powerful with such a smart interface i saddens me more people don't use it. It's hands down better than AE, and no more expensive, and wayyy cheaper than Shake. SO if you're serious about compositing, this is the way to go. Of course id prefer newtek apple and discreet integrated together and got along at some tea parties but if it doesn't happens it's hardly a reason to cry. All great companies, i just hope combustion support stays, i'm afraid it's not going to.

noiseboy
08-15-2003, 02:39 AM
To try and put a positive thought into this thread, perhaps Newtek should encourage Eyeon to port their product, not just to Linux but to OS X as well, a undertaking to do that would certainly be of value to Mac users in the future, from a personal point of view I would be happy to buy into the deal if I knew that at some point I would be able to upgrade to a Mac version of DFX at an upgrade price. Maybe Eyeon could announce this at the IBC conference in September, just after the deal ends.

HollowHull
08-15-2003, 03:43 PM
did anyone notice that the marketing guy just said nothing inportant he was just like mac osx is good but nothing about us getting the shaft he would have been better off not replying at all

policarpo
08-15-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by HollowHull
did anyone notice that the marketing guy just said nothing inportant he was just like mac osx is good but nothing about us getting the shaft he would have been better off not replying at all

what are you talking about?:confused:

Chuck
08-15-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by HollowHull
did anyone notice that the marketing guy just said nothing inportant he was just like mac osx is good but nothing about us getting the shaft he would have been better off not replying at all

If my last reply to Policarpo were my only post then you'd be right, but I have in fact commented here and elsewhere that we stand by our decision to provide the DFX+ offer, though we know that not all users will be interested and able to take advantage of it. No value add offer that we make will necessarily appeal to all users, and in some cases may be of use only to customers with particular platforms or configurations. Bypassing a great opportunity because it may not fit all users would not be best either for us as a business or for those customers who can take advantage of the opportunity. Dave W was saying as much in his message, and you posted in agreement.

I've also mentioned in the forum in the last few, days, if not on this particular thread, that we are in fact looking for opportunities for great value add offers for our Mac customers. A great many suggestions have come from the forum users on that front, and we are researching those and other possibilities.

HollowHull
08-15-2003, 04:18 PM
I'm talking about chuck's comments but don't pay too much attention to me I'm just mad I paid a grand for 6.5 and my tech support is that I really should upgrade 7 runs better on osx if that was the case I feel like they shouldn't have sold me a half done product don't get me wrong I love lightwave but all the shut offs, saving problems I have to deal with are unreal

policarpo
08-15-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by HollowHull
I'm talking about chuck's comments but don't pay too much attention to me I'm just mad I paid a grand for 6.5 and my tech support is that I really should upgrade 7 runs better on osx if that was the case I feel like they shouldn't have sold me a half done product don't get me wrong I love lightwave but all the shut offs, saving problems I have to deal with are unreal

hrmm...okay.

if it's any consolation, i was using 6.5b at work and it ran pretty great. Why not find out if you can upgrade to 7.5 now and get a free upgrade to 8?

HollowHull
08-15-2003, 04:42 PM
I am getting out of the army in 2 months I just can't afford it

TyVole
08-15-2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Chuck

I've also mentioned in the forum in the last few, days, if not on this particular thread, that we are in fact looking for opportunities for great value add offers for our Mac customers. A great many suggestions have come from the forum users on that front, and we are researching those and other possibilities.

hint . . . hint . . .

http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/products/index.html

Ade
08-15-2003, 08:59 PM
How about as I mentioned once before -

BUY Lightwave 8 for MAC and get a customised Lightwave keyboard with all the shortcut keys + All the worley collection or some other 3rd party plugin collection?..

Karl Hansson
08-16-2003, 12:48 AM
I have the perfect bundle idea for LW. If NT could include THIS HARDWARE (http://www.lamborghini.com/eng/lamborghini.html) + LW ugrade for $495 I would put down the money today...NO PROBLEMS;)

HollowHull
08-16-2003, 08:00 AM
I think even I could dig up the money for that

hcoat
08-16-2003, 10:02 AM
I would rather have some great offer for mac users, but I understand that business is business and money takes priority over any platform. I remember Chuck had the idea to sell DFX online to make up the upgrade cost. (which is fine by me). I have heard that DFX is tied to your lw dongle, I don't have a duo dongle mine is mac only as far as I know it wouldn't work with a pc. Any way is there an option to sell DFX or is it stuck to my lightwave dongle for good?

TyVole
08-16-2003, 02:18 PM
Check to be certain, but I believe someone on this forum was saying that Newtek was offering to swap dongles for free if you bought the upgrade package.

Unless you bought one of the early versions that included a DFX dongle, DFX is indeed tied to your LW dongle. You can't sell it.

Ade
08-17-2003, 03:52 AM
I'd buy LW8 and worley collection and a mac lightwave keyboard straight away if it were available.

toby
08-17-2003, 04:00 AM
I'd buy LW8 now if Worley's G2 were included, but I'd be satisfied with 'merely' a Taft bundle -

Beamtracer
08-17-2003, 04:37 AM
I know this was suggested on a previous thread, but I want to repeat it anyway. My suggestion for a bundle would be LW8+....

RealViz Stitcher:
http://www.realviz.com/products/st/index.php
For anyone not familiar with this product, you stand in one place and shoot a whole lot of still photos in different directions and angles, then you feed all the images into RealViz stitcher and it'll automatically create a 360° 3D panorama. Then you can load this panorama into Lightwave and you've got a photo-realistic backdrop for your models. Not many people have it, everyone wants it, and every Lightwaver can use it. Works on Mac OS X as well as Windows.


Another suggestion is Synthetik Studio Artist:
http://www.synthetik.com/
Too hard to describe what this one does, but you can read it on their website.

Ade
08-17-2003, 04:40 AM
Worley plugs everyone can use.

Beamtracer
08-17-2003, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Worley plugs everyone can use. Worley Labs had huge Mac sales with their G2 plug-in. You may find that most who want G2 already have it.

Karl Hansson
08-17-2003, 07:21 AM
<<<...You may find that most who want G2 already have it.>>>

Yup! I have G2 and Sasquash both are really nice and are very stable on mac. I noticed that Newtek europe had an uppgrade offer bundled with 5 training dvds instead of DFX. I know its not what everybody needs it... some are already born masters;) but its always something. It seems that Newtek europe usually seems to have some great deals, they were also first with the DUO upgrade.

The Tin Man
08-17-2003, 04:14 PM
I hope that when any package deal for Mac users comes along that anyone with Lightwave already will be allowed to purchase it. Maybe as some sort of upgrade pricing structure (I suppose a little like the DFX+ full price and upgrade price is now).

With all this talk of a possible package being looked at I don't want to keep waiting to get into buying the Lightwave Product, and as everyone may agree you should not really keep waiting to see what may come along later. Here in the UK we have the DVD offer and DFX+, the DFX+ offer is something I have no real need for. Perhaps Newtek could look at having various partners were Lightwave owners could get great discounts on all sorts of software and plugins. It may keep more people happier as it could allow everyone to pick and choose what they want.

Here's hoping something could be announced soon.