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Matt
12-02-2008, 03:25 AM
That's right!

Yet Another XP Pro 64 vs Vista Ultimate Edition 64 Thread! :)

I'm thinking of taking the plunge into the wonderful world of 64 bit computing, but I'm stuck.

I have some questions, which I know you guys will be generous enough to help me with!

:D

1) What are the pros and cons of XP Pro 64 vs Vista UE 32, is the same deal as XP Pro 32 vs Vista UE 64? I.e. Vista is still buggy and a bit slower?

2) Can I run 32 bit apps in a 64 bit environment? Is there any slow down / issues I need to know of?

3) Drivers are clearly a big thing, from checking, it seems most of my hardware drivers have 64 bit versions (thankfully). But do 32 bit apps need to use 32 bit drivers? Or can they use the 64 bit ones? Basically what's the combinations that will / won't work?

4) What's LightWave 64 bit like? Stable?

5) Are there any LW plugins that don't have 64 bit versions that will stuff my possible switch over?

6) Lastly, anything else I've missed I need to know?

BTW: Just checked the RAM situation out, the RAM that cost me loads when I bought my machine is cheap as chips! Only problem is I have 4 x 1GB in 4 slots, so I need to lose those and get the 4 x 2GB in replacement.

Thanks for any advice!

Cheers
Matt

Lightwolf
12-02-2008, 03:34 AM
1) Not in my opinion. I run XP64 as well as Vista Ultimate x64, and both are extremely stable. Surely more stable than XP32 in both cases.
2) Yes. No. And they may even be slightly faster (slightly, a few percent) due to the OS being 64bit
3) 64bit drivers all the way.
4) Yup. I've been using it exclusively for the past few months.
5) I have no idea. All the ones I use are there.
6) Not that I can think of.

Ouch for the RAM. I got my quad with 2x2GB and recently plunked in another 2x4GB (for a miserly 190€ to boot). Not for LW though but for matchmoving (hehe, I can playback 1000 2K frames from RAM :D ).

Cheers,
Mike

Chris S. (Fez)
12-02-2008, 04:17 AM
I just upgraded my primary workstation. My test runs have been hard but far from extensive. So for what it is worth:

1) I went with XP mainly because I mostly use Max and the XP benchmarks are far faster. Not sure about Lightwave.

2) 32bit apps run fine. Modo, Illustrator CS4 and the rest of the Adobe suite are still 32 bit. Photoshop CS4 is 64 bit.

3) So far all applications, both 32 and 64 bit, have simply worked on install. Knock on wood. I know I am overdue for a fussy driver and suspect it will be Wacom related.

4) Awesome performance. Poor stability. Hub problems abound. Fprime and nodes are like gunpowder and flame (ie. disastrously volatile). However, I don't think it is any LESS stable than 32bit.

5) Sensei plugins good to go. Worley plugins are problematic. Rendering in 64bit Fprime with 16GB is pretty awesome. Unfortunately, Fprime and Lightwave are not in synch... I expect Worley and Newtek will work it out.

Those are the only plugs I have tested so far.

6) If you use Photoshop CS4 the new advanced OpenGL that lets you rotate the canvas etc. is NOT supported on XPpro. There is a workaround, but it might lead to instability so I have not bothered.

Max viewport speeds are pretty insane on 64bit. Layout and Modeler need to be integrated AND optimized.

biliousfrog
12-02-2008, 04:23 AM
I've been running XP64 for about 18 months and I'm really happy with it. No problems with drivers or software, I even manage some COD4 when things are quiet (or stressful).

32bit apps work fine, just install them and run them as normal, there's no faffing about with emulation or anything they just work as 32bit but can access up to 4gb RAM rather than the 2gb available on a 32bit OS.

I guess Vista is where it's at but I'm sticking with XP for the foreseeable future because it works and I don't see anything in Vista that I need. I had to buy a new router when I got a Vista laptop because, for some reason, it wouldn't connect...that's the only issue I've had with Vista.

If there's some plugins that haven't been updated to 64bit you can still install 32bit LW and use the plugins with that.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-02-2008, 05:12 AM
Are those your own tests or something you read on the internet? Hopefully You're not talking about the horrible Jon Peddie benchmarks, those have long since been fully debunked as downright bad science. Both in terms of performance between the applications involved and XP/Vista differences.

I have XP and Vista running on the same machine and practically no difference in GL performance. That's running nVidia video drivers post 175.xx.

Prior to that there has been differences, but these days not so much.

Naw. No hard numbers here. A couple former colleagues/Max gurus tested both and told me to go with XP for better performance and stability. This was apparently more an Autodesk/Max problem than a Vista problem.

I suspect now that they switched to XP and have a stable setup it will be years before they switch again. As for me, my pipeline is far smaller and more flexible so I might give Vista a go after the next service pack.

Matt
12-02-2008, 06:52 AM
Cool, thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated!

Matt
12-02-2008, 06:53 AM
1) Not in my opinion. I run XP64 as well as Vista Ultimate x64, and both are extremely stable. Surely more stable than XP32 in both cases.

Thankfully Mike you saw through my copy and paste 64 / 32 error in question 1, what I meant to ask was:

1) What are the pros and cons of XP Pro 64 vs Vista UE 64, is the same deal as XP Pro 32 vs Vista UE 32? I.e. Vista is still buggy and a bit slower?

Salv8or
12-02-2008, 02:06 PM
This is my oppinion:

Vista eats alot more memory compared to XP on startup.(No running applications, on my laptop around 750 MB.) There are stuff in vista that makes me wanna sink my teath in the keyboard and there are stuff that are tremedesly wounderfull.

Both OS's are stable and at this time most applications are available for both. If I where to build a workstation I would go with XP 64, just becouse im more used to how things should work and act in XP.
For a multiperpous machine I'd go Vista.

Hope it helps.

Lightwolf
12-02-2008, 02:40 PM
This is my oppinion:

Vista eats alot more memory compared to XP on startup.(No running applications, on my laptop around 750 MB.)
It does, but it's by design an no issue at all. It uses available memory to prefetch/cache files that you're likely to load anyhow. Absolutely normal behaviour that is designed to speed up the system. If another app needs the memory, it's there.
From my experience Vista uses maybe a bit more memory, but that would be less than 50MB or so (you'd want to look at Kernel memory in the task manager, and only a part of it is in RAM as well).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
12-02-2008, 03:23 PM
If Mike sees 50 MB you can probably count on something between 50 and 150 MB.
You're right, I just checked, 213MB/64MB Total/Non-paged on XP64 (a 4GB machine) vs. 381Mb/92MB on Vista 64 (a 12GB machine).
Effectively, looking at the non-paged memory it's only 32MB, the total is a difference of 170MB though.

Cheers,
Mike

safetyman
12-04-2008, 06:03 AM
I don't understand why people are still buying XP over Vista at this point. If you already have it and it works for you, great, but I wouldn't want to invest in an OS that is 1) Going to be gone in a few months, and 2) Not supported anymore. As software matures and 64 bit becomes more mainstream (at least in the graphics/3D world), XP is not going to be part of that, 64-bit or not, trust me.

Vista may have a few issues (none for me), but companies are not going to support an OS (XP) that is a dinosaur and that's because of dollars and sense -- they cannot provide software support to an OS that Microsoft no longer supports/maintains; it wouldn't make sense to provice tech support for "downgraded" software, when they sell a Vista version. It just wouldn't be cost effective.

This is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, but I would caution people against buying XP at this point.

Matt
12-04-2008, 06:41 AM
I guess the other question is, what's the deal with Windows 7. The replacement for Vista. Do you wait until that comes out? When is it pencilled in for release?

biliousfrog
12-04-2008, 07:08 AM
Personally, I use XP because I don't want any issues with mixing OS's on the network. It works perfectly and I can't see any reason to switch to Vista...there is nothing in Vista that I need at this time and I don't want to 'upgrade' just for the sake of it. I'm very much 'small-time', imagine a large studio with hundreds of computers running XP. There are implications beyond having a fancy desktop, issues affecting one or two computers is one thing but when it affects a whole studio it's a different matter.

Another reason to stick with the 'dinosaur' is because it has gone through all the service updates and is now very stable. Vista is pretty good now but there have been a lot of horror stories from when it was released and many people that jumped too early got burned. There's a lot to be said for using ol' reliable when you've got a dealine to meet.

Personally, I don't see Vista as anything more than an updated Windows ME...remember that? It was that stop-gap OS between Win98 and XP...now we have Vista, the stop-gap OS between XP and Windows 7. Windows 7 was announced before Vista even hit the shelves so Vista obviously isn't seen as a long-term solution....and that doesn't fill me with confidence.

That doesn't make Vista bad but I see it as another reason to hang on to a bloody good OS that works until a worthy successor comes along.

Just my 2p

biliousfrog
12-04-2008, 08:22 AM
Nothing could be farther from the truth. Vista is completely rock solid unlike the crap that was ME.

You write that you use XP and not Vista. How are you qualified to make that statement? Because you read it somewhere?

Just curious what your motivations are.

It's perfectly fine to stick with XP, nothing wrong with that, but please don't talk trash about something you don't seem to fully understand.

I have Vista on two laptops...actually one of them has been in for repair for 3 months but that's another story...so I do use it. I don't have a problem with it, it works fine but I don't see anything that makes it stand out from XP.

I'm not claiming that Vista is as bad as ME, just that it doesn't appear to be anything more than a filler until Win 7 is released...which I guess is why XP's support has been continually extended (currently until 2014).

I'd gladly use it instead of XP but I don't see any logical reason to switch unless I upgrade to CS4...which I don't intend to.

biliousfrog
12-04-2008, 09:07 AM
If you want a 64-bit OS today, there's little reason not to get Vista.


I agree totally. It's a bit like running a fleet of cars. If you need a new car then get one but why upgrade one if the new model isn't much different to the old one?

In your experience, what are the benefits of Vista? Aside from the prefetching (which causes issues for some people) I don't really see any at this time. I certainly don't think it's any worse than XP but I also don't see any benefit beyond the interface.

Matt
12-04-2008, 09:21 AM
Looks like it will be Vista UE 64 Bit and 8 of your finest GIGs please! :D

(This is where I need a new graphics card too, and then a new processor!)

Lightwolf
12-04-2008, 10:35 AM
I'll probably get a new graphics card when/if the GTX 200 series gets a die shrink or otherwise is made less power hungry and less bulky.
Don't hold your breath, apparently they got it already and it didn't work out well. It seems that nVidia had nothing but problems this year with their manufacturing.

Cheers,
Mike

Matt
12-04-2008, 12:25 PM
Yeah, while my graphics card (EVGA 880GTX ACS) is quite adequate at the moment, I've never been keen on the size of the thing, two of those slimmer ones looked quite tempting early on.

I think my Intel 2.66GHz Quad Core Extreme will do for a while yet, as there's no point upgrading to a faster one of that series, might as well go for the i7 later on, but that will mean a new motherboard as you've pointed out, and that may mean new RAM too.

So going 64 bit will be the only upgrade for some time.

I think I will go for the faster RAM that my Striker Extreme supports though (DDR2 - PC8500+ (1066Mhz) instead of DDR2 - PC6400 (800Mhz) that is in there now)

IMI
12-04-2008, 01:11 PM
GO with Vista Ultimate x64, Matt. Only Ultimate has Aero, and you'll love it, believe me. I know you're a graphic-kinda guy, and Aero is beautiful.
And like neverko said, get the OEM version. Retail is a waste of money unless you're making major changes to your hardware all the time.



EDIT:
Wait a minute, is that right that only Ultimate has Aero? Suddenly I can't remember. I know Ultimate has something important the other versions don't. Dream Scene? Hmmm...

Mike_RB
12-04-2008, 01:18 PM
I built a system recently and I put XP64 on it. But we've been using it successfully for all our needs for a year and a half now, including all our work on Iron Man. I'm not one to change things that work perfect for something new, not on an OS level. Quicktime is the only real PITA.

intel q9550
quadro 3700
8gb ram
asus pq5 motherboard.

great system.

Lightwolf
12-04-2008, 01:23 PM
EDIT:
Wait a minute, is that right that only Ultimate has Aero? Suddenly I can't remember. I know Ultimate has something important the other versions don't. Dream Scene? Hmmm...
It's not. Only Home Basic doesn't have.
Ultimate has all the "Pro" features of Business (like the ability to hook up to a domain) as well as the media centre that you get with home and those "special" extras like DreamScape and BitLocker (I'd rather use TrueCrypt though).

Oh, and home only supports single socket systems, it surely works with multiple cores though.

Cheers,
Mike

BeeVee
12-04-2008, 01:56 PM
And you can get Dreamscene for other versions of Vista anyway.

B

Matt
12-04-2008, 03:53 PM
Ordered! Vista 64 UE, and 8 GB of this stuff:

8GB (4x2GB) Corsair Dominator DDR2 PC2-8500 (1066Mhz) (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/4GB-(2x2GB)-Corsair-Dominator-DDR2-PC2-8500-(1066)-240-Pin-Non-ECC-Unbuff-CAS-5-EPP-DHX-plus-Fan)

Lewis
12-08-2008, 01:58 AM
Welcome to 64bit world Matt :) :).

BTW faster ram won't help you if you aren't overclocking and even 800MHz Ram is enough for your CPU 'coz CPU will hit limit/wall much sooner than RAM at 2x ratio :). But since price difference between PC6400 and PC8000/8500 it's small it won't cost you too much :).

P.S. I was "driving" 800Mhz SuperTalent DDR-II at 1050MHz perfectly stable ;).

Matt
12-08-2008, 02:12 AM
I will be installing it this week, wish me luck! :)

Just gotta make sure I've downloaded all I need driver-wise, backup all files copied any preferences settings I might need and de-registered any software that needs it (iTunes etc.)

Lewis
12-08-2008, 03:48 AM
Suggestion - Buy NEW HDD and install on it while keeping current system as backup in case you have some problems i.e. don't overwrite current until you are sure everything works on 64bit as you want/need.

Hieron
12-08-2008, 04:25 AM
I run both Vista 64 (Ultimate, non OEM.. yes I paid way too much but needed it that same day, and the entire city only had that one 64 bit... pff) and XP 64.

For me now the differences in performance are really small, and then I prefer Vista for the fancier looks etc. Sure Vista uses 1.2 GB upon start up and the XP boxes use 400 or so.. but who cares with the current RAM prices anyway. So I got Vista on the main, cheaper and less mem heavy XP on the farm.


Little tips:

-Vista likes to prefetch, and some people appreciate this function. I don't. It is all nice and handy, but when you occasionally hit F9 for a render that needs much of your RAM, it will clear it out in a snap. Fine. But when the render is done, it'll try to fill it up again, and that needs alot of HD access. If I hate something, it is a loud and not snappy responsive HD. So I turn it off always.

-Indexing. Yes.. another loud HD function :) Turn it off right away too. It just keeps my HD's waay too busy, and the actual use of it is sooo low for me. If you search your HD's for files all the time, keep it on I guess.


-User Account Control: aargh. Turned it off. Some programs do not like this function, and sure it may be their own coding fault but you are the one wondering why on earth thing A doesn't work with thing B.


After that and perhaps a few other tweaks Vista became fine for me and it renders just as fast as XP (or seems to at least).

Earl
12-08-2008, 01:55 PM
I will be installing it this week, wish me luck! :)

Good luck! And good choice. I upgraded to Vista Ultimate 64-bit over the summer and within a week I ran into a render at work (where I run XP 32-bit) that ran out of memory and wouldn't render at poster print resolution.

I took it home and it rendered on my 64-bit Vista machine beautifully. I don't ever want to be on XP 32-bit again. :D

Oh, and there are some strange bugs in Vista, but nothing that prevents me from using LightWave or being productive. For instance, if you use a percent sign in a file name (or if you download a file that has a percent sign) then it will crash Explorer.exe if you right click the file or try to rename it. Very strange.

RollerJesus
12-08-2008, 02:09 PM
I have one piece of advice (this will definitely demonstrate just how dense I can be)... In Vista, you do not right click and hit search to look for files in Explorer. There is a search bar in the upper right of each explorer window.

A little OT, but it's been killing me lately and I needed to tell someone. Thanks!

IMI
12-08-2008, 08:35 PM
I have one piece of advice (this will definitely demonstrate just how dense I can be)... In Vista, you do not right click and hit search to look for files in Explorer. There is a search bar in the upper right of each explorer window.

A little OT, but it's been killing me lately and I needed to tell someone. Thanks!

Do yourself a favor and rely instead on a consistent standard of where you place what kinds of files, and make shortcuts to the important stuff as you put it there. First thing I do when installing or reinstalling Vista is to turn off indexing for all drives, effectively disabling it, because otherwise Vista will thrash your HDD's all day and all night and before, after, and during everything you do, especially after making any major changes to large files, such as installing, uninstalling, defragging or cutting and pasting.

I've used the same filing conventions for years, and it's been years since I needed to do any searches on my drives for anything - I know where everything is, and if I forget, I know exactly where to look for any type of file on my computers.

Matt
12-11-2008, 10:38 AM
Well, the time is approaching to re-format my C drive and install Vista 64 bit, if I don't post again in a few hours time, something drastic went wrong!

Cripes!

:D

Lewis
12-11-2008, 11:02 AM
Noooooo, don't format c: , buy new HDD just for Vista, we could "loose" you for two days otherwise :D :D.

Good Luck

Matt
12-11-2008, 02:01 PM
Phewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Not installed yet, but I flashed my BIOS to 1801 "64 bit" from 1102 "32 bit", restarted and ......... tumble weed ......... absolutely nothing, no POST, notjhing!

I crapped my pants.

Then remembered one of the cool things on my motherboard, a button to clear the CMOS.

Tried that ....... didn't work! ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!

Then after calling _US_ tech support (my poor phone bill) he reminded to do the same thing - clear CMOS (and remove everything but 1 stick of RAM / Processor / Graphics card).

That's when I noticed the safety jumper switch that prevents the CMOS button working wasn't set in the right position. Changed that, cleared CMOS, and now it works again! YAY!

Only thing is, I just tried booting from the Vista DVD from the boot menu, it looked like it did something, but never came up with any text, just a green desktop backdrop.

Now I'm scared to format my HD in case the DVD doesn't boot.

So am on here to research a bit before going back in again!

At least my motherboard wasn't knackered!

Lewis
12-11-2008, 02:11 PM
Good to have you back, don't do that again :D

Matt
12-11-2008, 02:24 PM
Good to have you back, don't do that again :D

I've not installed Vista yet, just got a HUGE scare after flashing my BIOS!

Lewis
12-11-2008, 02:37 PM
Yeah i got that and now you are even more scared to install VISTA so you will wait for few days and listen my advice and buy new HDD to install VISTA :D :D.

I've flashed BIOS's hundreds of time but i got scared few times too when MB wouldn't boot or so but Clear CMOS jumper always helped except one time on P4 MB where I had to remove battery for 30 sec and then it finally cleared BIOS :). Since then i always buy MB with 2 bios or Quad bios as GB MBs have in last few years :D.

Matt
12-11-2008, 02:48 PM
Here's the thing. When I boot from the Vista DVD (OEM by the way) it goes through the first part, progress bar (loading files or something) then it looks like it's starting Vista, difficult to tell really. But then I get a green, gradient backdrop (default Vista wallpaper I guess) and then it stops. I get no messages, install wizard, nothing, just this green backdrop.

Any ideas?

Lewis
12-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Hmm weird behavior. Do you have all components VISTA ready? Can you run that vista compatibility test. IIRC there was even online compatibility test somewhere on Microsoft site.

Matt
12-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Hmm weird behavior. Do you have all components VISTA ready? Can you run that vista compatibility test. IIRC there was even online compatibility test somewhere on Microsoft site.

Yep, as far as I'm aware, the mobo is, the DVD-Drives I guess should be, they get so far, the GFX card is, nothing else is plugged in.

Matt
12-11-2008, 03:03 PM
Windows Vista Upgrade Advisor reports no issues preventing me from upgrading.

WTF! I hate Vista already! ;)

Lewis
12-11-2008, 03:06 PM
Heheehe that's a new one, HATE even before installing it :D :D.

You tried Microsoft free 0800 number for support ???

Matt
12-11-2008, 03:16 PM
Do you have it? Or is it this one: 0870 60 10 100

Lewis
12-11-2008, 03:26 PM
I have it for Croatia but i doubt it's same for all countries. It should write somewhere on DVD/CD BOX cover.

here in Croatia is 0800 300 300

hazmat777
12-11-2008, 03:36 PM
Do OEM versions include free phone support? I didn't think that was the case.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070130-8730.html

Lewis
12-11-2008, 03:42 PM
Do OEM versions include free phone support? I didn't think that was the case.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070130-8730.html

Not sure about VISTA but My XP Pro64 is OEM and i called them several times in this past 2 years and nobody asked me about OEM/retail :).

hazmat777
12-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Not sure about VISTA but My XP Pro64 is OEM and i called them several times in this past 2 years and nobody asked me about OEM/retail :).

That's good to hear.:)

Matt you can also try turning off any NCQ or AHCI type stuff for your hard drive controller in your BIOS and see if that helps.

IMI
12-11-2008, 04:02 PM
Some people have reported installation issues with Vista on machines with 4 GB(+) memory. Maybe your motherboard is affected? Try removing a stick or two and install with minimum memory in the system. Then plug it back in. The issue is only during installation.

I didn't have the issue and I don't know anyone who's had it. But it is a known issue on some systems.


Edit: I don't remember anything about any green gradient backdrops, but it's been a while since I installed my system. I don't think that's supposed to happen...


Yeah, what neverko said.
I've installed it several times, on several machines, not once had any issues like you're having, Matt. Did you build this PC, or is it an OEM box you bought and are trying to stick Vista on it?
Try this out: Memtest (http://www.memtest.org/).
It's a free utility you download and burn to disk and then use it to boot up. it doesn't go into Windows, but runs independent, prior to booting and needs no OS installed. test all your memory with it first to make sure you don't have a bad RAM slot or two, and then try to install Vista with only 2 GB. You can add the rest of your RAM later.



Here's the thing. When I boot from the Vista DVD (OEM by the way) it goes through the first part, progress bar (loading files or something) then it looks like it's starting Vista, difficult to tell really. But then I get a green, gradient backdrop (default Vista wallpaper I guess) and then it stops. I get no messages, install wizard, nothing, just this green backdrop.


How long do you wait? How do you get out of it, with the reset button? What happens afterwards? Sounds like it's trying to load, but hitting a stumbling block, possibly a HDD problem or a RAM problem would be my guess. DID you in fact reformat the drive?

Matt
12-11-2008, 04:10 PM
Will see and try Hazmat.

Question is, when installing XP, the first part is in DOS mode, until it gets to the Wizard bit. This Vista one seems to be going straight into an install with a proper GUI. Is that right?

I get no options to format any drives etc. prior to install, it just looks like it's about to bring up some sort of install wizard but never does. I just get a screen something like the attached and a mouse pointer. Then it does nothing, no intro text, no options, no error messages, nada.

It goes through the 'Loading files' (boot files I guess) then I see a startup type progress bar for about a second, and it doesn't appear to go all the way to the end, gets about 3/4 segments in and then brings up the below screen.

I've Googled my heart out, but no one seems to have encountered the same issue.

I tried copying all the DVD files to disc to see if it threw up any errors while reading the DVD, but nothing, copied fine.

This is really annoying, and MS tech support doesn't open until tomorrow now.

Grrrrrrrrr.

IMI
12-11-2008, 04:13 PM
Do you have a copy of XP, either 32 or 64 bit around? You could use that to format the HDD and even install XP then install Vista through the XP installation. I remember now had to do that once for someone, but now I can't remember why, what the problem was.

Yeah, that's the default Vista wallpaper, alright.

Matt
12-11-2008, 04:14 PM
To answer the other questions:

Am installing with only 2GB RAM, Processor and GFX card installed (oh and my two Pioneer DVR-112 drives).

I built this myself ages ago, never had an issue with installing XP Pro (which I've done several times)

These 2GB in there is brand new, could test the other three sticks and / or the other 4 1GB sticks taken out to be replaced!

I've waited a good 5 minutes on that screen, no DVD activity can be heard, the mouse pointer still moves, I have to hard reset to get out.

IMI
12-11-2008, 04:24 PM
These 2GB in there is brand new, could test the other three sticks and / or the other 4 1GB sticks taken out to be replaced!



No, what I meant about testing the RAM is, it's not always a module. You can have a bad RAM slot, and the mobo will still work normally, just the RAM in that slot won't be getting used. Happened to me with a mobo I bought not too long ago.

AGES ago? Vista and XP are two entirely different creatures. You sure the board is up to it?

Matt
12-11-2008, 04:43 PM
I'm typing this on the same machine I'm trying to install on! If the RAM slot was kaput, surely I know when booting / running XP?

Here's a video of what happens (the pause on the black screen doesn't always happen, just did when I recorded this time)

MP4
www.creactive-design.co.uk/download_temp/Vista_64_Fail_MP4.zip

AVI
www.creactive-design.co.uk/download_temp/Vista_64_Fail_AVI.zip

WHY me!!!!!!! :(

Lewis
12-11-2008, 04:47 PM
weird stuff Matt, just weird :(.

Matt
12-11-2008, 05:17 PM
Hmmmm, could this be it?

http://forums.techguy.org/windows-vista/637706-vista-crash-before-install-because.html

Because watching it go through the install does make me wonder whether it hangs / gets confused or actually crashes, but no BSOD.

Because that startup progress bar does dive out pretty quickly.

The post on that link is the closest I've found to what I'm seeing.

Matt
12-11-2008, 05:24 PM
I might try updating my 32 bit SATA drivers, maybe they're just too out of date and are causing issues on the install.

After that, gonna try uplugging all but the boot hard drive.

IMI
12-11-2008, 05:27 PM
I might try updating my 32 bit SATA drivers, maybe they're just too out of date and are causing issues on the install.

After that, gonna try uplugging all but the boot hard drive.

I think at this point, I'd jut buy a fresh, new HDD, format it with my XP installation, and then install Vista on that.

Matt
12-11-2008, 05:39 PM
Well, I have four HD's in my machine, so I could try it on the one I use as a scratch disk.

I just don't wanna lock out my current XP install until I know the Vista 64 install is going to work!

Matt
12-11-2008, 07:36 PM
AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! !

FFS!

This is getting RIGHT on my wick now!

I've tried with only one hard drive connected up, that didn't work either.

What I don't get is why a fresh XP install might help, as it DOES boot from the CD, so none of the 32 bit drivers should be getting in the way.

Why can't these damn things just work!

All my hardware is 64 bit compatible (according to either the manufacturer or Vista's own "check your hardware" site).

I have taken everything out except the bare minimum you need to install.

Yet it gets to that same point and sits there like a dumb fk!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

P.S. My chipset / SATA drivers were the latest anyway.

Hopper
12-11-2008, 07:40 PM
Don't hold your breath, apparently they got it already and it didn't work out well. It seems that nVidia had nothing but problems this year with their manufacturing.

Man, that's a no-shitter. And I'm so glad I didn't upgrade to the GTX280. A few guys at work got the upgrade and hate it. For some reason, they can't get their drivers straight with Vista 64 and it locks constantly running Aero. However, on the brighter side 2 of the guys went back to XP 64 and said it runs smooth as silk with no issues for any apps - including OGL apps. And one poor bastard had FOUR of them overheat and it fried them. He got his money back and went back to the 9800GX2. He said it worked great with Vista.

I'm sure Vista would work fine, but my preference is to not touch it. I'm constantly wrestling with it on my wife's machine and I can't stand it. But in all fairness, she's got some weird hardware and still running some pretty old 32bit apps. If I loaded it on my box, I'm sure I could get it tweaked out to my liking, but I just don't want the hassle yet. I dual boot 32/64 XP.

IMI
12-11-2008, 07:45 PM
Man, that's a no-shitter. And I'm so glad I didn't upgrade to the GTX280. A few guys at work got the upgrade and hate it. For some reason, they can't get their drivers straight with Vista 64 and it locks constantly running Aero. However, on the brighter side 2 of the guys went back to XP 64 and said it runs smooth as silk with no issues for any apps - including OGL apps. And one poor bastard had FOUR of them overheat and fried them. He got his money back and went back to the 9800GX2. He said it worked great with Vista.



Really? I guess I'm glad now I've stuck with my 8800 GTS's. I had intended to get a GTX 280 or two by now but decided to wait since the 8800's can handle everything currently out there and the GTX will come down in price.
Some of the Vista x64 drivers for the 8800 have been a bit unstable, but IMO, the current 180.whatverthehellitis release is pretty good. Except for that fan disabling thing, that is, but I did as you suggested and got the new EVGA Precision Tool and all is well again with that.

*****


I don't know what to tell you, Matt. I wish I could help, but I'm out of suggestions. :(

Matt
12-11-2008, 07:58 PM
I don't know what to tell you, Matt. I wish I could help, but I'm out of suggestions. :(

I think all I can do now is shout at some Microsoft techie down the phone tomorrow.

I am sooo pissed off, I have not had one issue with this machine until I tried to install this crap.

IMI
12-11-2008, 08:50 PM
I think all I can do now is shout at some Microsoft techie down the phone tomorrow.

I am sooo pissed off, I have not had one issue with this machine until I tried to install this crap.

Who knows - maybe you got a defective DVD, although that's pretty unlikely.

Matt
12-12-2008, 05:02 AM
Just rang a tech guy I know, and his first idea makes sense actually, he said it sounds like the install can't see the hard drives with the SATA controller (non RAID Silicon Image) and just doesn't know what to do next.

This is very similar to the post in the thread I posted above. Question is, how can I fix that!

IMI
12-12-2008, 05:09 AM
If it worked during your XP installation, it should work for Vista, IF the mobo is up to it. I haven't put Vista on anything *but* SATA HDD's and never had a problem.

Are you SURE your motherboard is Vista ready? You did say you've had it for "ages".

Matt
12-12-2008, 08:41 AM
Hello World!

Well, after all that ranting, hair pulling, shouting, swearing, turns out all I needed to do was .... dum dum dummmmmmmmmmm .... wait a little longer for the install to kick in!

It just takes longer than expected, but it was working fine!!!! I must have been restarting my PC a second before the install wizard came up!

How fricking easy would it have been for Microsoft to put a message up saying "Checking System" or "Install in Progress"?

Now I just need to install stuff, switch stuff off (including figuring out how to stop the "UAC is off" reminder message from coming up every now and again!)

Phew! Gonna switch off now and put the 8GB RAM in!

Thanks for all the replies and help guys, made me feel I wasn't alone in my hour(s) of need!

:D

Oh, something else, my antivirus software doesn't have a 64bit version yet (there's a beta but am waiting to be accepted for that). Out of interest, what 64 bit antivirus / firewall software are you guys using?

Lightwolf
12-12-2008, 09:02 AM
Hello World!

Good to see you made it to the other side.

I use avast, which was one of the first 64-bit AV tools.

Cheers,
Mike

Matt
12-12-2008, 10:13 AM
Ahhhhh, thanks for that Neverko, that was bugging me!

Now, what about that horrible menu on all the windows (the one with 'Organise' / 'Burn' etc.) anyway to turn that off? Or at the very least change the colour of it, that green is horrible!

In fact, I'd quite like the Zune theme I had before!

Matt
12-12-2008, 10:26 AM
Something else, codecs.

I read somewhere about needing 64 and 32 bit versions of each so that both types of programs have access to them. Is this right?

I downloaded a WMV file from Microsoft and it failed to play due to a missing codec!!!!

IMI
12-12-2008, 11:54 AM
This might help you: Vista Codec Pack (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Codec-Packs-Video-Codecs/Advanced-Vista-Codec-Package.shtml).

I haven't tried this, just found it on Google in about three seconds, so you might want to research it first. Far as I know, you don't need separate 32 or 64 bit packages. I think WMP is only 32 bit anyway.

You might need to separately download DivX and other proprietary codecs separately.
You won't need separate packages for XP and Vista, since your codecs will go into your Windows folder, or your Windows partition for each OS.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Vista. By the end of the day you'll be tearing your hair out, if I know you. ;)

Matt
12-12-2008, 01:21 PM
Thanks IMI, I did find a codec package, but wanted to know what you guys had done!

I have to say though , I find Vista Aero UGLY! There are just WAY TOO MANY colours all vying for attention.

This is where the Mac has it right.

Does anyone know of any themes that DON'T need installation of third party skin tools?

IMI
12-12-2008, 02:00 PM
You can change all that, Matt, far as the colors of Aero is concerned, in Control Panel\Appearance and Personalization\Personalization. I wrestled with it too, at first, but you can get what you want.
Well, maybe not what YOU want, but I'm happy with its appearance. There is nothing like Zune though, without a 3rd party solution. Then again, I haven't looked into it too much because, as I said, I like its out of the box look. Even so, even if nothing else, the fact Aero eliminates the "window painting" effect is enough for me. And Dream Scene is pretty cool to turn on when not using the PC. :)
Far as codecs go, a friend of mine sent me a Vista codec pack in an email when I was asking the same thing. It had everything but DivX in it, but I don't know the source of it. It may very well be the same thing I linked you to. All I know is I have yet to come across a video I can't play.

Oh, BTW, I'm glad to hear you got your installation problem sorted out. :)
I never thought to mention the time it takes - yeah, it takes way too long, IMO.

Matt
12-12-2008, 02:29 PM
I'm okay with most of it, but what I REALLY want to change are these bits:

BeeVee
12-12-2008, 02:35 PM
Dreamscene doesn't actually take much more processor time than a static background, that's the cool thing. It uses the GPU to animate the background.

B

IMI
12-12-2008, 02:54 PM
I'm okay with most of it, but what I REALLY want to change are these bits:

I doubt you could change the colors, but maybe something like Window Blinds could, if they have a Vista version of it.
Or, you could just go to regular folder view and even assign a picture for the folders to display, and I believe you can assign a background picture too.
Personally, the colors within the folders is not a big deal to me. I use my PC's, not just look at them. ;)

BeeVee
12-12-2008, 02:58 PM
Directory Opus! ;)

B

IMI
12-12-2008, 02:58 PM
Dreamscene doesn't actually take much more processor time than a static background, that's the cool thing. It uses the GPU to animate the background.

B
Cool, thanks for that info. :)
I never considered that, just assumed it was using CPU and RAM. Does it use the VRAM or system RAM?

Hopper
12-12-2008, 03:36 PM
Good to see you made it to the other side.
I use avast, which was one of the first 64-bit AV tools.

I put avast on my wife's system. Works like a champ. I don't use it personally, but it has proven it's worth several times as sometimes the children know not where they are going... :)

Matt
12-12-2008, 04:05 PM
I doubt you could change the colors, but maybe something like Window Blinds could, if they have a Vista version of it.
Or, you could just go to regular folder view and even assign a picture for the folders to display, and I believe you can assign a background picture too.
Personally, the colors within the folders is not a big deal to me. I use my PC's, not just look at them. ;)

Classic view still has that 'tools' bar at the top unfortunately.

WHY don't Microsoft allow users to change simple things like this, it's just crazy!

It seems all these greenish tinted items are following a 'highlight colour'. Why not give the user the ability to change that?

Seriously, Microsoft have NO IDEA when it comes to user interface design, none whatsoever.

Hopper
12-12-2008, 04:10 PM
Seriously, Microsoft have NO IDEA when it comes to user interface design, none whatsoever.
That couldn't be any more true.... You'd think they would take a look around once in a while and see what the cool kids are doing with their interfaces... :)

Speedmonk42
12-13-2008, 11:24 AM
That couldn't be any more true.... You'd think they would take a look around once in a while and see what the cool kids are doing with their interfaces... :)

Or everybody is actually so deeply hand tied by patents and lawyers we all get screwed.

That is more likely than MS being stupid.

Matt
12-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Neverko, you might wanna get this this though!

Vista Shortcut Manager
http://www.frameworkx.com/download.aspx

Gets rid of those HUGE shortcut arrows Vista likes! You can also use your own by supplying it a .ICO file.

Also option, removal of the "- Shortcut" text.