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jin choung
11-04-2008, 09:59 PM
further discussion at "why obama will be elected" thread...

but just as a nice announcement.

thank Christ.

jin

jameswillmott
11-04-2008, 10:01 PM
I pity the guy, I really do. What a mess to inherit!

Oh well, Gobama! ( and good luck to him. )

JonW
11-04-2008, 11:02 PM
Jin
Quote:
watching the aftermath of obama's speech and i'm just struck by the faces in that crowd. heck, the faces ON STAGE!
black and white and asian and hispanic, young, middle, old.
that's awesome. so awesome.





Well done.

Hopper
11-04-2008, 11:08 PM
And so, we finally come to the "End of an Error"... :D

Sande
11-05-2008, 12:13 AM
USA - congratulations! :)

valu
11-05-2008, 12:20 AM
Very good choise out there.
Congratulation for you, USA citizens!

Stunt Pixels
11-05-2008, 12:20 AM
I deeply hope for Obama to be the agent of change he has promised.

Congratulations America, was a classy show of democracy all round.

akademus
11-05-2008, 12:43 AM
Congratulations to all the intelligent Americans who made the right choice.

Congratulations!

I second that. Let hope we'll all see some better days and forget the previous 8 years!

Congratulations to all!

warmiak
11-05-2008, 12:50 AM
Obama won but it looks like, of all places, California is going to approve ban on same-sex marriages !

Where the hell are Obama voters ?
They voted for him and then turned around and voted for this as well ?

As you probably know, I am not an Obama supporter but I thought, given a democratic year, these types of idiotic propositions would get defeated (as they should) and it looks it is going to pass everywhere (California, Florida, Colorado)

WTF ?

Panikos
11-05-2008, 12:56 AM
warmiak :)

I feel compassion for you. Courage and patience dear till the next elections.
Peace and change at last!

warmiak
11-05-2008, 12:58 AM
warmiak :)

I feel compassion for you. Courage and patience dear till the next elections.
Peace and change at last!

Uhh ?

jin choung
11-05-2008, 01:02 AM
Obama won but it looks like, of all places, California is going to approve ban on same-sex marriages !

Where the hell are Obama voters ?
They voted for him and then turned around and voted for this as well ?


wtf indeed. but there were lots of lie filled ads from the other side making it about children's education.

the ol' "think of the children" ploy.

i did my part. in california, it was no on 8, no on hate.

sigh. can't win 'em all.
---------------------------------------------------------------
but we'll get it overturned... or redressed with another proposition.

the future is bright. history is made. america is new. people are dancing in the streets.

we have hope.

there will be change.

jin

Darek Laszczyk
11-05-2008, 01:08 AM
USA - congratulations from Poland. Right choice.

warmiak
11-05-2008, 01:18 AM
Thank You! :thumbsup:

And now comes the hard part.... fixing the mess.....

The funny thing is .... nobody really knows what he is going to do.

I mean, yeah, building more roads, windfarms , more people being insured etc ..but these are not really solutions ... they are just additional expenditures - how is that going to help anything ?

jin choung
11-05-2008, 01:24 AM
I mean, yeah, building more roads, windfarms , more people being insured etc ..but these are not really solutions ... they are just additional expenditures - how is that going to help anything ?

thinking too small.

universal health care means that american industry will finally be competitive in the world marketplace. the burden of worker's health care has been one that completely overwhelmed the bottom line for american companies.

WHY?

because almost every other modern industrialized nation we competed with ALREADY HAD government subsidized health care that their companies did not have to worry about.

this will be HUGE.
-----------------------------------------

thinking too small.

obama will be focused on bringing the iraq war to a quick and orderly CLOSE.

HOW MUCH MONEY WILL THAT SAVE (PER DAY?!?!)? will that "BRING IN" simply by ceasing to "GO OUT"!

-----------------------------------------

thinking too small.

building wind farms and investing in alternative energy CREATES AN INDUSTRY. an industry that CANNOT POSSIBLY be outsourced. an industry that creates jobs for the middle class.

------------------------------------------

thinking too small.

sometimes it TAKES money to make money.

------------------------------------------

as i said in one of these posts, there was a guy waving a little sign printed on a handkerchief. it said:

"OBAMA WINS! HANG ON! HELP IS ON THE WAY!"

jin

StOuen
11-05-2008, 01:28 AM
Congratulations America from the 51st state of Great Britain.

warmiak
11-05-2008, 01:41 AM
thinking too small.

universal health care means that american industry will finally be competitive in the world marketplace. the burden of worker's health care has been one that completely overwhelmed the bottom line for american companies.


It isn't going to happen.
Obama is not stupid .. he saw what happened to Clinton in 1994.

In any case the plan is to provide more tax cuts and benefits for companies who provide health-care.
Much better solution imho.




thinking too small.

obama will be focused on bringing the iraq war to a quick and orderly CLOSE.

HOW MUCH MONEY WILL THAT SAVE? will that "BRING IN" simply by ceasing to "GO OUT"!


No argument here but the total savings will be minimal .. most of it has already been spent and the total cost of war is really a statistical noise compared to the size of the budget and other social expenditures.

Actually, I think getting rid of all these 700+ imperial outpost all over the world would have been much better in the long term .. alas that won't happen either.

Frankly, I think Obama is really in a tight spot Ö he will have to break his promise and massively increase taxes to be able to implement half of what is listed on his agenda.
Donít forget , he just got a parting gift from Bush in the form of 700 billion in the red ( which he supported as well ) so ÖI just donít see where he will get the money.

Darth Mole
11-05-2008, 01:47 AM
Congratulations to All American LW users from the UK - nice bit of history you made last night! Obama seems like a good guy - I really hope he does you proud.

P.S. And he's getting a puppy for the White House, not one of those evil snake-eyed cat things. So bonus points here.

*Pete*
11-05-2008, 01:56 AM
The funny thing is .... nobody really knows what he is going to do.

I mean, yeah, building more roads, windfarms , more people being insured etc ..but these are not really solutions ... they are just additional expenditures - how is that going to help anything ?

building roads, windfarms and so on...will produce jobs, it will employ construction companies, sub contractors, transport, producers of construction materials etc etc...its a long, long list.

those companies will either need more employees or will not need for fire people they have today.

the people who get jobs or get to keep jobs get salaries, those salaries can be used for consumption..new tv set, new car, tires, music, movies..food.
its money spent in USA that will go to the producers of tv sets, cars, tires and so on.

this will employe people in those industries as well, the workers in those places will keep their jobs as well, or some might even get emplyement in those companies, which again allows for more people to get salaries that they can spend.

the key out of a recession is spending, not govt spending, but you Warmiak, and me, spending our hard earned money on things we want to have.

when the economy is in a recession, private sector does not want to invest in new stuff, or new buildings, since there is a risk of low or no profit, even loss.
so at these times govt steps in and spends money for constructions, roads, windmills etc to fill the vacuum left by the lack of will from private sector.

it works the same, it will give growth in GDP, the cost will be inflation...its not good, but the alternative is a long, deep recession, huge unemployement and perhaps the end of the financing system as we know it today..even the end of capitalism is possible.

both canditates would have been forced to do this, Bush is doing it as well..Obama might do it on a slightly larger scale, but its healthy economics that is the reason, not simple idealism.

Stooch
11-05-2008, 01:59 AM
im very happy that obama won. not surprised but happy none the less. I am going home to MA for thanksgiving and we have some republicans in our extended family so its going to be hard not to gloat.

im dissapointed that of all places, CA still has closed minded people, considering prop 8. but oh well, maybe they can call it a different name.

jin choung
11-05-2008, 01:59 AM
It isn't going to happen.
Obama is not stupid .. he saw what happened to Clinton in 1994.

oh please....

he's NOT stupid. he WINS TONIGHT ON A PLATFORM THAT PROMISES UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE?

that completely, fundamentally, ABSOLUTELY eradicates whatever precedent you think hillary's attempt during her husband's presidency set.

AND - it makes american companies competitive again. that MAKES money.

and you have dam well near (if not actually) a super majority in the senate, and a landslide victory that gives him the MANDATE OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

he has a blank check.

and if we can afford billions a week in iraq, we can get health care for the american people.

be an american.

not an american't.

: )

jin

ingo
11-05-2008, 02:06 AM
The funny thing is .... nobody really knows what he is going to do......

He is a politician build up by the media for the media, so what do you expect ?? But congrats to the democrats, now they finally made it ( with the help of election machines :p ).

Although i too believe that they still has to proove that change-thing, when they choose J.Bidden as vice-president for example they prooved that the democrats are not willing to take a risc, so not much of a will for a change. So lets see what W tries to do on his last days to make O's work even harder.

warmiak
11-05-2008, 02:09 AM
oh please....

and he WINS ON A PLATFORM THAT PROMISES UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE?

that fundamentally eradicates whatever precedent you think hillary's attempt during her husband's presidency set.

and you have dam well near (if not actually) a super majority in the senate, and a landslide victory that gives him the MANDATE OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

he has a blank check.

and if we can afford billions a week in iraq, we can get health care for the american people.

be an american.

not an american't.

: )

jin

Oh well .. will see.

I am getting older every day ( in my 30s now ) so 20-25 years from now (if I am lucky that is, much sooner if I am not ) I will become a customer.

I will get back to you then ... either with my profound thanks ...or a bill.

warmiak
11-05-2008, 02:10 AM
He is a politician build up by the media for the media, so what do you expect ?? But congrats to the democrats, now they finally made it ( with the help of election machines :p ).



Oh come on .. it was their year , election machines or not :)

jin choung
11-05-2008, 02:13 AM
most of it has already been spent and the total cost of war is really a statistical noise compared to the size of the budget and other social expenditures.

that sentence doesn't even make logical sense. how can it "already been spent"?

IT'S NOT DONE YET!

here's a simple equation:

(TIME WE WOULD BE IN IRAQ UNDER BUSH/MCCAIN) - (TIME WE WOULD BE IN IRAQ UNDER OBAMA) = A LOT OF MONEY.

and here's an excellent little washington post article ... especially about "upfront cost" vs. total. we'll being paying a CONTINUING PRICE for years to come:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846.html

besides, conservatives aren't allowed to bring up the price of anything anymore. lost all credibility. cuz cost of war? negligible. cost of bailout? meh... chump change.

dam straight we got the money for health care then. emergency socialism for the rich but no health care? good.. luck.. selling... that... logic. even if we throw in a bunch of BLUE CROSS LEATHER JACKETS in with that deal, we're gonna be lookin' right at the conservatives with the STFU look.

jin

ingo
11-05-2008, 02:19 AM
Oh come on .. it was their year , election machines or not :)

Oh well, a bit sarcasm maybe allowed :beerchug:

meshpig
11-05-2008, 02:57 AM
further discussion at "why obama will be elected" thread...

but just as a nice announcement.

thank Christ.

jin

The Conservatives are dead... long live the Conservatives!!!

m:)

IMI
11-05-2008, 03:16 AM
... even if we throw in a bunch of BLUE CROSS LEATHER JACKETS in with that deal...

jin

Blue Cross leather jackets?
Nobody ever said anything about that before. Hell, that alone would have done it for me. ;)

DiedonD
11-05-2008, 04:16 AM
So youve picked Obama huh :) . Congratulations USA.

As I said previosly, anyone wouldve done just fine as much as we're concerned :)

krimpr
11-05-2008, 04:43 AM
Congrats USA!!! As a Canadian who has previously had no interest in politics either here at home or anywhere else I have to admit that I've been following this intensly for many months now.. probably because of of my absolute astonishment of the failure and questionable principles of Bush/Cheny/Rove/Rumsfeld/..... (the list is too long; but you get the idea.) I sincerely hope that the historic relevance of Obama's election into office transcends more than just the race issue, but instead is the beginning of the "change" which he has used as his platform since the very beginning. He's inherited a real mess to clean up, and I wish all my American friends the absolute best under the leadership of a man who truly seems to believe that he can make a positive difference. All my best to you over there, and to him in becoming a president who can be remembered for making a positive difference on this planet. :thumbsup:

mattclary
11-05-2008, 05:44 AM
Obama won but it looks like, of all places, California is going to approve ban on same-sex marriages !

Where the hell are Obama voters ?
They voted for him and then turned around and voted for this as well ?

As you probably know, I am not an Obama supporter but I thought, given a democratic year, these types of idiotic propositions would get defeated (as they should) and it looks it is going to pass everywhere (California, Florida, Colorado)

WTF ?

The ban passed here in Florida. They banned gay marriage, but elected Obama. I personally voted against the ban and (as you all know) against Obama.

I don't get people.


And all you folks, if you liked Carter, you're going to love Obama.

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 05:50 AM
I don't get people.


That's what I've said for the previous two elections, especially the last one.

mattclary
11-05-2008, 05:55 AM
That's what I've said for the previous two elections, especially the last one.


Yes, the last one just makes you question people's sanity.

IMI
11-05-2008, 05:57 AM
Yes, the last one just makes you question people's sanity.

I'd agree. :D

akademus
11-05-2008, 06:04 AM
Change will probably be slow and painful, but I feel things will start moving to better. The whole world supported Obama (well, almost the whole world :D ) and at this point he simply seems as better leader.

It is historical event and I'm glad to see a black man in the White House for the first time.

We can look forward to changes in front of us and the US!

Thanks

mattclary
11-05-2008, 06:37 AM
painful,

You got that right.




he simply seems as better leader.


I think I just vomited a little.

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 06:41 AM
I think I just vomited a little.

Wow, not even in office yet and you're already vomiting. You've got a rough 4-8 years ahead of you my friend.

mattclary
11-05-2008, 06:47 AM
Wow, not even in office yet and you're already vomiting. You've got a rough 4-8 years ahead of you my friend.

Especially considering the Democrats now have a more complete control of Congress.

You guys have the helm now.

Good luck, and I hope you manage to keep her off the rocks. :thumbsup:

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 06:50 AM
Good luck, and I hope you manage to keep her off the rocks. :thumbsup:

Yeah, hopefully they can get it turned around in time. We do have a real mess to clean up. Thanks for everything Bush.

IMI
11-05-2008, 06:59 AM
Yeah, hopefully they can get it turned around in time. We do have a real mess to clean up. Thanks for everything Bush.

Don't forget to thank all the idiots in Congress who helped him out along the way, many of whom are still there and have been for far longer than Bush has.

I'd hate to see you forget to acknowledge their voluminous contributions.

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 07:06 AM
Don't forget to thank all the idiots in Congress who helped him out along the way, many of whom are still there and have been for far longer than Bush has.

I'd hate to see you forget to acknowledge their voluminous contributions.


Everybody hates congress, I thought that was a no-brainer. What do they have, like a 13% approval rate?

But I think that starting to control the hemoraging that is the Iraq War would be a good start for them.

IMI
11-05-2008, 07:10 AM
But I think that starting to control the hemoraging that is the Iraq War would be a good start for them.


IIRC, it was their very promise to do just that which won them the majority in '06.

In fact, they could have been doing that all along, but they decided it was more important to use the Iraq war as a political tool, than to try to end it.

Yeah, it's just peachy that they have such a low approval rating. Not that that changes anything as they very skillfully hid from all that with the election as a smokescreen, and they're too powerful for it to matter anyway.

Not to mention the idiot public largely doesn't seem to mind what they're up to and gives them free pass to continue, year after year, preferring to place all the blame on the pres.

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 07:14 AM
IIRC, it was their very promise to do just that which won them the majority in '06.

In fact, they could have been doing that all along, but they decided it was more important to use the Iraq war as a political tool, than to try to end it.

Well, I don't think they had enough of a majority to do so. Now might be a different story.
But even if they did use it as such, it's a means to an end. Literally.

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 07:20 AM
I think I'm done with the political threads now. I would like to get back to more Lightwave.
Democrats won a landslide victory last night. Discuss away.

IMI
11-05-2008, 07:24 AM
Shouldn't matter what their majority was. The majority of American citizens wanted to see them do something.

For that matter, they had a clear majority (and presidential approval, no less!) when trying to sneak that "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" bill through last Summer, but when the people made it clear they didn't want it, end of story, no go. More politics.

So I guess Congress alternates between being "representatives" when it's convenient or politically expedient, and being excuse makers, liars, and politicians the rest of the time.

JeffrySG
11-05-2008, 07:30 AM
It is historical event and I'm glad to see a black man in the White House for the first time.

We can look forward to changes in front of us and the US!
:agree:

And maybe now we can get back some of our constitutional rights that were non-so-slowly being removed from us.

Sarford
11-05-2008, 07:36 AM
Lets hope they don't pop him off like JFK or MLK.

DiedonD
11-05-2008, 07:51 AM
:agree:

And maybe now we can get back some of our constitutional rights that were non-so-slowly being removed from us.

Which consitutional right were beeing removed from you?

IMI
11-05-2008, 07:56 AM
Which consitutional right were beeing removed from you?

Mostly, the right to have a Representative Congress, but that's been going on for quite a while and shows no signs of slowing down.

Aside from that, pretty much all other rights, most notably rights to privacy.

Unfortunately, Congress never gave us the right to vote them out before the end of their terms, but to now allow that would be an excellent first step on the road to CHANGE!

CMT
11-05-2008, 07:57 AM
Obama won but it looks like, of all places, California is going to approve ban on same-sex marriages !

Where the hell are Obama voters ?
They voted for him and then turned around and voted for this as well ?

As you probably know, I am not an Obama supporter but I thought, given a democratic year, these types of idiotic propositions would get defeated (as they should) and it looks it is going to pass everywhere (California, Florida, Colorado)

WTF ?

This should be no surprise. Just because Obama promised people a everything, doesn't mean they will suddenly embrace a different way of thinking.

Just because Obama had a big turnout, that doesn't mean people will automatically change their thinking on issues like gay marriage, abortion, or any other major issue.

People elected Obama because they blame the economic crisis on the current administration. All the problems we have had economically were placed squarely at the feet of the Bush and the Republicans by the Democrats and Obama and people bought it. And Obama successfully linked McCain to that during his campaign. McCain was ahead in the polls by a small margin when the crisis hit, then he started falling behind quickly.

But time will tell if we elected the right man who will bring about real change,... or just another man who will play on the same political stage as everyone else.

I certainly hope he's the bringer of change he makes himself out to be. I just hope it's the right kind of change.

Andyjaggy
11-05-2008, 08:34 AM
:agree:

And maybe now we can get back some of our constitutional rights that were non-so-slowly being removed from us.

The constitution, what's that? Oh yeah that piece of paper that we don't use anymore. Gotcha.

Andyjaggy
11-05-2008, 10:54 AM
Yep Palin ended up being a mistake. My parents who have always been republican supported Obama in the election simply because McCain picked Palin.

flatpyramid
11-05-2008, 11:15 AM
Well, Obama seems to be the right man for the job. Lets just hope all his "promises" don't go down the drain.

Lightwolf
11-05-2008, 11:15 AM
Personally, from what I've seen, I don't really have anything against McCain apart from his fairly low social skills displayed during interviews. He seems like an agreeable person on many levels.

But with his age and Palin behind him, I don't think he stood a chance. He possible might have, had he not picked someone as rabidly fanatical as Palin.
Absolutely. I almost feel sorry for him... but then again, he made the wrong decisions. And if he didn't pick Palin personally then his advisors did - which he hired as well. If it wasn't for that and his smear campaign (which, by the looks of it, isn't his style either)...

Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
11-05-2008, 11:17 AM
I disagree. McCain did as well as he did BECAUSE of Palin. Most people I know didn't give a crap about the election until she came along, and she was what motivated them.

Obama is an Orator, Palin is a leader. You might despise her because she doesn't agree with aborting unwanted babies, but that doesn't make her a bad person or a bad leader.

CMT
11-05-2008, 11:39 AM
We can only speculate as to what effect Palin had on his chances, but in reality what did him in was the financial crisis. Obama was all along shouting "We don't need another 4 years of Bush policies" and after the meltdown, people really started buying it and making the connection to Bush. Even after the market has been recovering (and then some) ever since 9/11 up until then. And it's evidenced in the polls leading up to and after the crisis started.

By my recollection, Palin was a boost to the Republican party. Even with her popularity waning, McCain was still ahead right before the crisis.

mosconariz
11-05-2008, 11:45 AM
Congratulations people! Yeah, Palin was a great cheerleader and Mc Cain a nice grandpa... You made the right choice with Obama, I'm confident

mattclary
11-05-2008, 12:05 PM
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2008/11/022003.php



A recent Rasmussen poll indicated that more Republicans were happy with Palin as the V-P nominee than McCain as the Presidential nominee

wacom
11-05-2008, 12:18 PM
Given the mess we're in, if he does only 10% of what he wants/purposed it would be a huge step in the right direction- given there is much to fix.

As far as the "money" goes for these programs...well it all depends at how you look at it- and if he has the "balls" to cut out certain black box parts of the budget there just might be some money around for certain programs...

Regardless of what happens in the next four years this has made it clear that things are changing in America as a new electorate comes of age.

The proposition in CA was odd, but I think if it had been about not giving gays the right to marry (which IMHO is a religious/social contract), but basic, recognized rights, like the ability to visit their dying partners etc. it would have passed as well.

We need to keep that separation of church and state around- but people keep using this as an emotional lightning rod to sway votes. I hope I live to see the day that gays have = rights, and that "church issues" don't have so much say in government. Marriage is a "church thing" and should be removed from government IMHO.

Marriage is between a man and a woman- fine. Human rights are for everyone.

Taxes should be collected on all "partners" and rights given to all "partners".

On a side note I find it funny that the Utah Mormon church poured so much money into a campaign about "One man, One woman" marriage! I know the Mormon church has "come a long way" in some regards...but I still can't help find the comedy in this!

Too any racists out there: I'm going to love imagining your twisted faces as a "black" man addresses you as your president every time he's on TV! Maybe now you'll finally "get over it" and move on with the rest of us!

In the end, I hope people also realize that we elected a centrist politician. Some of your communist/socialist fears are so unfounded. There are many of us who voted for him, but see him as too centrist. I live in a very liberal/libertarian area though...we have a gay mayor and lots of guns!

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 12:19 PM
Ok, I said I was done but Palin really cheeses me off. Of course she's popular with Republicans, that was never the problem. It's everyone else that doesn't like her. Her numbers dropped the more we found out about her. Oh, and of course she was popular in her state, she paid for their loyalty with checks from the Oil companies. $1300 for every family from what I remember.
But it really didn't come down to her. As CMT mentioned, the economy was the number one issue and democrats had the advantage.

jin choung
11-05-2008, 12:21 PM
palin? are you FING kidding me?

she absolutely energized the base of the christian right.

and COMPLETELY drove the CENTER AWAY! all the sane people in the house saw bushjr. in those vacant, begoggled eyes and ran screaming. even DENNIS HOPPER was driven away because of her. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/04/dennis-hopper-i-voted-for_n_140940.html?page=4

it energized the base but it was the last nail in the mccain campaign's coffin.

seriously, i sincerely hope with ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL MY HEART that sarah palin will be adopted by the republican party.

may they clutch her tightly to its bosom in 2012.

i can see no easier path to a sure democratic win in 4 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5hydi64-Ds

bushjr. i love it.

please oh please. may she be the future of the republican party.

: )

jin

mattclary
11-05-2008, 12:22 PM
Ok, I said I was done but Palin really cheeses me off. Of course she's popular with Republicans, that was never the problem. It's everyone else that doesn't like her. Her numbers dropped the more we found out about her. Oh, and of course she was popular in her state, she paid for their loyalty with checks from the Oil companies. $1300 for every family from what I remember.
But it really didn't come down to her. As CMT mentioned, the economy was the number one issue and democrats had the advantage.


From the link above. Palin hardly was a burden to this campaign. Or if she was, you are saying your boy sucks worse than we thought.


Obama won around 52 percent of the popular vote, defeating John McCain by between five and six points. That's nothing like the true landslides of the past: Reagan by ten points in 1980 and 18 in 1984; Nixon by 23 in 1972; or even Bush by eight in 1988. And yet, with hindsight, it is remarkable how much Obama had going for him. After breaking his pledge to take public financing he raised more money, by far, than any Presidential candidate in history, outspending McCain nearly two to one. Millions of new voters, many of them minority voters, were registered, and they went heavily for Obama. Obama enjoyed the monolithic support of the entertainment industry and was something of a fad among the young. He benefited greatly from being an African-American; the idea that his victory would be a good thing for America, on that ground, was widespread even among his opponents. He ran largely against a retiring President who, for three years, has rarely seen his name appear in a sentence that did not include the word "unpopular." He had the active support of essentially 100 percent of the nation's news media. And, perhaps most important, he benefited from a financial crisis that struck at the most opportune moment (for him) and was unfairly blamed on the Republicans by most voters.

Despite all of this, Obama mustered only a five-point win.

wacom
11-05-2008, 12:25 PM
Absolutely. I almost feel sorry for him... but then again, he made the wrong decisions. And if he didn't pick Palin personally then his advisors did - which he hired as well. If it wasn't for that and his smear campaign (which, by the looks of it, isn't his style either)...

Cheers,
Mike

Good point- you elect those who will surround and council the president- not just the prez. Just look at how much sway those in the Bush cabinet had over policy. I wish it was a bigger part of the political campaigns since it is so important- and says more about a candidate and their policies than any stump speech or political ad.

mattclary
11-05-2008, 12:25 PM
palin? are you FING kidding me?

she absolutely energized the base of the christian right.

and COMPLETELY drove the CENTER AWAY! all the sane people in the house saw bushjr. in those vacant, begoggled eyes and ran screaming. even DENNIS HOPPER was driven away because of her. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/04/dennis-hopper-i-voted-for_n_140940.html?page=4

seriously, i sincerely hope with ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL MY HEART that sarah palin will be adopted by the republican party.

may they clutch her tightly to its bosom in 2012.

i can see no easier path to a sure democratic win in 4 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5hydi64-Ds

bushjr. i love it.

please oh please. may she be the future of the republican party.

: )

jin


Your self righteousness is beginning to nauseate me. See my post above.

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 01:02 PM
From the link above. Palin hardly was a burden to this campaign. Or if she was, you are saying your boy sucks worse than we thought.

From the link above, I can't distinguish it from all the other biased stories you link to. I see an opinion peace that's trying to make excuses for why their side lost. And lost big. Citing the popular vote doesn't show much considering that a majority of Americans consider themselves either democrat or republican(not to mention the popular vote does not decide the winner). McCain won a large number of the republican vote, what a shocker. I mean, that's got to get him at least 40% of the vote just for party affiliation. And black voters usually go democratic so citing black voters as a reason Obama won doesn't hold much water. Also, the black voter turn out went from 11% in the last election to 13% in this election so it's not exactly a deluge of black voters making the big difference here. It wasn't even close like it was in 2000 and 2004, it was very obvious from early on in the evening as the results started coming in that McCain/Palin were facing an uphill battle and it never swung back from those odds. Obama won states that typically go Republican. Obama elected because of the advantage of being black? That's a laugh. I would say that it's just as good of odds that he was elected despite the fact that he is black.
As far as Palin goes, I see her making a bid for 2012 and then slowly fading off into obscurity once she loses in the primaries to somebody less frightening.

wacom
11-05-2008, 01:09 PM
I say bring Palin on! We can find a million other Dem. AND Rep. woman that would toast her patootie in any debate and be much more presidential!

America can do better.

Lightwolf
11-05-2008, 01:15 PM
I wish it was a bigger part of the political campaigns since it is so important- and says more about a candidate and their policies than any stump speech or political ad.
Over here the candiates (well, the parties) usually present a shadow cabinet, so you have a hunch of who might be in what position after the election. Obviously the exact cabinet will depend on coalition partners (if needed), but still, you have a hunch.

Cheers,
Mike

DiedonD
11-05-2008, 01:15 PM
Mostly, the right to have a Representative Congress, but that's been going on for quite a while and shows no signs of slowing down.

Aside from that, pretty much all other rights, most notably rights to privacy.

Unfortunately, Congress never gave us the right to vote them out before the end of their terms, but to now allow that would be an excellent first step on the road to CHANGE!

Dont you have one of them phone lines where you can complain? And someone gathers them all up and represents them as an issue in some high place?

What other rights Im curious really?! How can they take your rights? How?

Privacy rights? They havent installed hiden cams on your bedroom have they?

warmiak
11-05-2008, 01:15 PM
From the link above, I can't distinguish it from all the other biased stories you link to. I see an opinion peace that's trying to make excuses for why their side lost. And lost big. Citing the popular vote doesn't show much considering that a majority of Americans consider themselves either democrat or republican(not to mention the popular vote does not decide the winner). McCain won a large number of the republican vote, what a shocker. I mean, that's got to get him at least 40% of the vote just for party affiliation. And black voters usually go democratic so citing black voters as a reason Obama won doesn't hold much water. Also, the black voter turn out went from 11% in the last election to 13% in this election so it's not exactly a deluge of black voters making the big difference here. It wasn't even close like it was in 2000 and 2004, it was very obvious from early on in the evening as the results started coming in that McCain/Palin were facing an uphill battle and it never swung back from those odds. Obama won states that typically go Republican. Obama elected because of the advantage of being black? That's a laugh. I would say that it's just as good of odds that he was elected despite the fact that he is black.
As far as Palin goes, I see her making a bid for 2012 and then slowly fading off into obscurity once she loses in the primaries to somebody less frightening.


I was actually quite amazed that the Republicans managed to get relatively close last night... this should have been a blowout of biblical proportions but ended up being just a solid victory.

We got this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_Electoral_College_Map_2008.svg

And given the current political climate, it should have been more like that ( with reversed colors):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1984.svg

wacom
11-05-2008, 01:25 PM
I was actually quite amazed that the Republicans managed to get relatively close last night... this should have been a blowout of biblical proportions but ended up being just a solid victory.

We got this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_Electoral_College_Map_2008.svg

And given the current political climate, it should have been more like that ( with reversed colors):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1984.svg

I think there are many reasons why that kind of out come is highly unlikely for any time in the next 50 years given the way politics have become so biased towards special interest topics. (For example- many E. Christians are against wars and greed, but some how the hot button issues have become abortion and gays alone. Politicians play people like fiddles this way now and are armed with better poll and marketing tracking to target these groups).

That and the fact that there are still a fair amount of sub-conscious racist people in America makes me think the outcome last night was BETTER than I would have expected for Obama.

jin choung
11-05-2008, 01:28 PM
Your self righteousness is beginning to nauseate me.

don't be nauseous. REJOICE!

as i said.

it is my earnest, fervent wish that you get YOUR wish and palin becomes the future of the republican party.

jin

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 01:28 PM
I was actually quite amazed that the Republicans managed to get relatively close last night... this should have been a blowout of biblical proportions but ended up being just a solid victory.

We got this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_Electoral_College_Map_2008.svg

And given the current political climate, it should have been more like that ( with reversed colors):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1984.svg

How is it that everyone on the republican side was saying they were going to win, they felt good about it going into the election, and that polls were wrong. Now they're all saying it should have been a complete wipeout in favor of Obama? Talk about your flip flopping.

warmiak
11-05-2008, 01:41 PM
I think there are many reasons why that kind of out come is highly unlikely for any time in the next 50 years given the way politics have become so biased towards special interest topics. (For example- many E. Christians are against wars and greed, but some how the hot button issues have become abortion and gays alone. Politicians play people like fiddles this way now and are armed with better poll and marketing tracking to target these groups).

That and the fact that there are still a fair amount of sub-conscious racist people in America makes me think the outcome last night was BETTER than I would have expected for Obama.

I actually think it has more to do with the quality of candidates ..

Some people are simply more inspirational than others.. and they don't come along very often.


FRD (1932)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1932_Electoral_Map.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1936_Electoral_Map.png

Reagan (1980)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1980.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1984.svg

warmiak
11-05-2008, 01:42 PM
How is it that everyone on the republican side was saying they were going to win, they felt good about it going into the election, and that polls were wrong. Now they're all saying it should have been a complete wipeout in favor of Obama? Talk about your flip flopping.

Who said that ?

First of all I didn't vote Republican and furthermore I actually said McCain was going to lose.

mosconariz
11-05-2008, 01:55 PM
Let's celebrate!! :jester::jam::bday::alien::yingyang::yoda::beerchu g::beerchug::beerchug:

CMT
11-05-2008, 02:05 PM
How is it that everyone on the republican side was saying they were going to win, they felt good about it going into the election, and that polls were wrong. Now they're all saying it should have been a complete wipeout in favor of Obama? Talk about your flip flopping.

The polls were wrong. The media backed polls showed Obama up by double digits in points. The win was not unexpected, but far from the margin shown by the media polls.

The polls had tightened a bit going into the last few days. A natural tightening, but slightly suggesting McCain was gaining ground. Any Reps who said "We can take it" were saying it just as any other would hoping to pull it off. Don't make it out to be anything other than that.

hrgiger
11-05-2008, 02:18 PM
The polls were wrong.

All the national polls I saw showed Obama with about a 6 point lead going into election night. Looks to me like they were just about dead on balls accurate as Marisa Tomei said in My Cousin Vinny.

Stunt Pixels
11-05-2008, 02:23 PM
All the national polls I saw showed Obama with about a 6 point lead going into election night. Looks to me like they were just about dead on balls accurate as Marisa Tomei said in My Cousin Vinny.

Actually, you're both right :)

The media backed polls were in double figures. The polls hrgiger was looking at may well have been less. Together, they gave 7.1%... From electoral-vote.com on election eve:

We have 10 national polls today. On average, Obama's lead is 7.1%. Here are the data.

- CBS News (Obama +13)
- Diageo (Obama +5)
- Gallup Expanded (Obama +9)
- IBD (Obama +2)
- Opinion Research (Obama +7)
- Pew (Obama +6)
- Rasmussem (Obama +5)
- Research 2000 (Obama +7)
- Washington Post/ABC News (Obama +11)
- Zogby (Obama +6)

Nangleator
11-05-2008, 02:56 PM
Let's see... what did this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s30vqJEM1do) media poll look like?

"Split." Heh.

Tonttu
11-05-2008, 02:57 PM
Republican/democrat switching is like the routine of good cop/bad cop, they're both working under the rule of corporations.

warmiak
11-05-2008, 03:21 PM
Republican/democrat switching is like the routine of good cop/bad cop, they're both working under the rule of corporations.

So start the damn revolution already ...

Tonttu
11-05-2008, 03:34 PM
So start the damn revolution already ...

Heh, I think you just got to learn to live in any environment, accept certain things as they are. Look how many different countries there are and different conditions, they're like laboratory experiments on how people cope with various realities. It is what it is, either you're happy or sad, whether in North Korea or Switzerland.

IMI
11-05-2008, 05:45 PM
Dont you have one of them phone lines where you can complain? And someone gathers them all up and represents them as an issue in some high place?


Yeah, sure we do. 1-800-TLK-2HND :D



What other rights Im curious really?! How can they take your rights? How?

Privacy rights? They havent installed hiden cams on your bedroom have they?

It's too complicated for any sort of quick explanation. Look up "patriot act" and you'll see a good example.
It's not so much anyone's taken away any rights, as they've limited what used to be our most cherished rights and made people afraid of exercising others, plus have set the stage for further abuses.

rakker16mm
11-06-2008, 01:25 AM
don't be nauseous. REJOICE!

as i said.

it is my earnest, fervent wish that you get YOUR wish and palin becomes the future of the republican party.

jin
:agree::agree::agree: She's done so much for the Democrats already that I was going to thank her for running and encourage her make a bid 2012 :D

In the meantime it's nice to know she's taking care of business for the good people of Alaska.

ingo
11-06-2008, 01:44 AM
don't be nauseous. REJOICE!

as i said.

it is my earnest, fervent wish that you get YOUR wish and palin becomes the future of the republican party.....

....Palin as President with Arnie as Vice-president ??? Now that would be cool. I guess that Palin gets more acceptable if she had the two year drill Obama had, but maybe than she isn't Palin anymore.

Matt
11-07-2008, 04:54 AM
Congratulations to all the intelligent Americans who made the right choice.

Congratulations!

My thoughts exactly, this is a POSITIVE move by America in my book.

MooseDog
11-08-2008, 05:15 PM
Congratulations to all the intelligent Americans who made the right choice.

Congratulations!

modded down for being intolerant and gratuitously condescending.

for the first time in 30 years of voting, i checked the big D at the top of the ticket. i WILL NOT consider those who exercise their freedom differently then me to be less intelligent than me.

this thing we call freedom to vote is rare enough in the grander scope of history, denigrating how one chooses to exercise it puts it into peril.

Stooch
11-08-2008, 06:18 PM
lol im sorry but a system that narrows down your choices to 2 isnt exactly geared for the smartest individuals.

in this case obama was the smart decision :)

jin choung
11-08-2008, 06:43 PM
modded down for being intolerant and gratuitously condescending.

maybe condescending but the republican party DESERVES to be marginalized right now. they've had their chance - 8 years - and they've proved pretty much beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are incompetent AT BEST.

this is not an exaggeration or a lie. they plum FAILED. and did a lot of damage to america to boot.

they need to take some time out and re-evaluate.

as for intolerant - in this case, it is warranted. shall we be tolerant of INTOLERANCE? that is a sentiment that sounds oxymoronic but it is not.

and the republicans have shown themselves to be extremely intolerant to all those who do not share their worldview.

jin

p.s. hmmmmm, actually, i think i just articulated to myself something i held nebulously in my head for a long time re:REP v DEM.

- BOTH PARTIES say that the other is INTOLERANT of an opposing world view.

BUT -

- REPUBS are "my way or the highway" (christian right).
- DEMS are "live and let live" (secular pluralism)

but the essential dynamic here is that one side embraces FUNDAMENTALISM and seeks to control others while the other side is a rejection of that fundamentalism.

in this case, the dems are indeed intolerant of intolerance and i said earlier, this is not a oxymoron.

cool. glad i nailed that down for myself.

wacom
11-08-2008, 08:48 PM
Well let's not group all Rep. together. There are a lot of representatives of the house and senate that vote on things in ways which most people would agree with. There was a fairly good Rep. Senator here, Gordan Smith, who was ousted by a Dem., Merkley, mainly due to the "tide" washing away even OK, truly moderate republicans.

In this highly partisan day and age we need to reward those who call a spade a spade- regardless of stripes.

There are others as well- I'm not saying I agree with the neo-con-evangelistic side, nor even always the old school Rep., but at least I can understand those who are old school Rep. and agree on several topics (like not wanted to be wire tapped etc.).

Two party systems DO suck though...maybe we'll get a REAL third party in 8 years though. One that doesn't have underdog written on it from the get go.

jin choung
11-08-2008, 08:51 PM
that's true. i was speaking of the rep "base" that seem(ed)(s) to be overridden by neo-cons and christian right (i.e. the w. era).

jin

Nangleator
11-08-2008, 08:53 PM
- REPUBS are "my way or the highway" (christian right).
- DEMS are "live and let live" (secular pluralism)
I mentally separate people into those who wish to make laws to control other people (for good motives or selfish ones,) and those who prefer to leave other people alone, whenever possible.

You'd think the repubs would be like the latter, with their consistent railing against "big government," but another few republican administrations and we'd have so many laws governing all our public and private actions, it would make the Soviet Union look carefree.

Here's two incendiary subjects for you...

Repubs would love to have a law against flag burning as a protest. The flag represents America, and America represents freedom (of speech, in this example.) So, to a repub, the symbol is more important than what it stands for.

Abortion. The repub side argues for life and call their opponents pro-abortionists. That sidesteps the issue. The issue is about whether we should enact a new law to control people, not whether abortion is bad.

For me, the republican party is the group of people that wants to box me in with laws to force me to be their idea of moral, (while continuously breaking all those laws themselves and conducting every lewd act imaginable. Morality is for other people.)

warmiak
11-08-2008, 09:03 PM
Here's two incendiary subjects for you...

Repubs would love to have a law against flag burning as a protest. The flag represents America, and America represents freedom (of speech, in this example.) So, to a repub, the symbol is more important than what it stands for.

Abortion. The repub side argues for life and call their opponents pro-abortionists. That sidesteps the issue. The issue is about whether we should enact a new law to control people, not whether abortion is bad.


That's why they got punished.

Now we shall see how the other side will behave.

jin choung
11-09-2008, 10:56 PM
I mentally separate people into those who wish to make laws to control other people (for good motives or selfish ones,) and those who prefer to leave other people alone, whenever possible.

haha,

actually, the funny thing is that for "personal morality" it is indeed the way you describe it but when it comes to COMMERCE, it's almost the EXACT OPPOSITE!

ha.

what you said about how the dems are in your quote - that's exactly what repubs want when it comes to business - hands off, small government, laissez faire, etc... but they're fine legislating morality because, as you say, they give lip service to that already and it doesn't affect the thing they really worship-

MONEY!

it's a funny little oxymoron - but as you can guess, i think the dems have it the right way round

- personal morality is PERSONAL. not the purview of govt.
- commerce needs to be REGULATED - and considering our current situation - regulated to within an inch of its life! CERTAINLY the purview of govt.

jin

Nangleator
11-10-2008, 05:00 AM
... when it comes to business - hands off...
Bad Reporter had a hilarious cartoon that showed the result of the deregulation of traffic laws. "Don't let the government tell you what to do at intersections!" Heh.

... the thing they really worship-

MONEY!
Amen, brother.