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ben martin
11-04-2008, 01:49 PM
Hey people,

If someone is thinking to upgrade from xStream 6 to 7, you first should clarify with E-on Software about the new maintenance policies:
To the ones with rivers of money that shouldn’t be a problem.
I just felt the need to clarify this point: Check this out!

Extracted from E-on Software site:
---------------------------------
This is an annual maintenance contract that includes a number of benefits:
• Unlimited, priority web-based technical support,
• Access to EEF releases (Expedited Engineering Fix),
• Access to “Maintenance Only” forums,
• Your own private ftp on our servers, where you can upload issue-related content,
• Free upgrades during the subscription period, including free upgrades to all .5 and full versions,
• One priority support incident per product under maintenance (see above).
Cost per year and per license, Infinite: $395, xStream: $595. Unused priority support incidents expire with the maintenance plan. Requires that all licenses intalled on a License Server be under Standard Maintenance. Read the Maintenance Plan Agreement here.

----------------
This is my doubt:
I understand that people must be smart to make money.
What I don’t understand is this new policy of:

Vue 7 xStream – Boxed + Standard Maintenance - US$1,790
Vue 7 xStream – Boxed + Premium Maintenance - US$2,230

I know, specialized maintenance costs money, no problem here, but stating that beside all the phone calls and Engineering support the Standard Maintenance and Premium Maintenance will get:
“Free upgrades during the subscription period, including free upgrades to all .5 and full versions,” ????

Specify please!
Does this mean that if I buy a simple xStream 7 without any extra packs, I’ll be stuck in that version without any rights to get free access to updates and bug corrections, (incremental versions) till 8?

Rephrasing:
If I buy xStream 7 and the product comes bad coded, Eon-software won’t give access to support, if I don't pay for that maintenance access?
Does this mean E-on does not cover bug-fixes and xStream 7 updates freely like it did with previous versions (like Vue 6 xStream till Vue6xStream6.60(292711))?

This means that Eon is changing the support and updates policy (following Autodesk tendencies)?

I was almost clicking in the check out button to get xStream 7 when this jumped to my attention. This very small detail can make a huge difference to my decision to upgrade to 7.

So, I won’t do it until this point is correctly clarified by E-on!

Thank you.

ben martin
11-04-2008, 03:11 PM
Ok, they replied to my question.
So, things are not that bad! :)

Reply From E-on Software
---------------------------------
Hi Ben,

If you do not purchase a maintenace plan, you basically get the same support you have always had in the past. You will get free updates and bug fixes and this online system is available to you for support.

Best regards.
Lee Randall

wsantiago
11-07-2008, 03:03 PM
which means wait for the patches and good luck with support. I would like to know, now that it is supposedly a fully integrated plugin will it work in a renderfarm or do you need a licensed for each node and if so how much per node. They have a fancy way of giving you all the wonderful things that xtream does while avoiding or telling you the extra cost that you will incur. if you are not able to use a renderfarm xtream is a very useless software. If you have to pay for each node in a renderfarm xtream is an extreamly expensive buggy software package. I have nothing good to say about e-on and their ways of doing business. I think that they are very deceptive almost bordering on extortion with the buggy software they put out.

tonybliss
11-07-2008, 03:34 PM
149.00 USD per render node for Xstream ...

and Ben that info that they emailed you back was on the same page as the maintenance options ....

ben martin
11-07-2008, 06:30 PM
Well.... I did the update... and.... crap... :foreheads I wish I didn't!

animotion
11-07-2008, 07:03 PM
I just took the plunge and purchased xStream 7. could not upgrade from 5.
I have bought so many hi-end plugins and am still not a millionaire yet.
What the heck is up with that!!

Animotion

LW3D
11-08-2008, 04:03 AM
same here...I have Vue5Infinite (LightWave Bundle) and there is no way to upgrade it to Vue7...

Andrew March
11-08-2008, 04:19 AM
Not a chance in hell of me upgrading

The Dommo
11-08-2008, 09:15 AM
Well.... I did the update... and.... crap... :foreheads I wish I didn't!

too buggy or just not worth it for features??

ben martin
11-08-2008, 11:15 AM
too buggy or just not worth it for features??
Too buggy!!! Definitively, yeah!

About the features, well it’s kinda sad that we don’t have the options Max and C4D users have, but that’s not E-on's fault instead is Lightwave that is missing some important developments to such Vue features work on. The most annoying ones are:

Capacity to paint ecosystems directly inside the host application stage.
Capacity to pain instances upon native host objects.
And some other “minorities”! :bangwall:

cresshead
11-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Too buggy!!! Definitively, yeah!

About the features, well it’s kinda sad that we don’t have the options Max and C4D users have, but that’s not E-on's fault instead is Lightwave that is missing some important developments to such Vue features work on. The most annoying ones are:

Capacity to paint ecosystems directly inside the host application stage.
Capacity to pain instances upon native host objects.
And some other “minorities”! :bangwall:

so if your pipline is 3dsmax or cinema then the update is worth it:thumbsup:
if however your pipline is not the above then your paying alot of cash for a not so great connection:thumbsdow

Sekhar
11-08-2008, 01:14 PM
So, is it fair to say then the new stuff is about integrating the interface and not about improving speed (the single biggest issue - for me anyway) or quality? I.e., you don't have to work in the Vue app, but do it all within LW.

Is that really a bid deal in the first place? I had no problems working with two interfaces (heck, we already do that with Modeler and Layout), except for cases where placing the Vue objects precisely was a bit tricky, having to go back/forth for trial/error.

IMI
11-08-2008, 01:51 PM
149.00 USD per render node for Xstream ...

and Ben that info that they emailed you back was on the same page as the maintenance options ....

$149.00 per render node? :eek:

You mean to say that the price of xStream doesn't include at least a handful of render nodes - that you have to pay $149.00 for each node you want to use?

So I have my little 3 machine render garden - I'd have to pay the full price for Vue 7xstream, PLUS another $450.00 to be able to use those machines to render a sequence? None included with the cost of the software?

tonybliss
11-08-2008, 01:53 PM
I promised myself not to get involved with Vue stuff on this forum ...

but I have to ask ..... Mr. Martin what are the bugs you are encountering ??

tonybliss
11-08-2008, 01:56 PM
render garden .. lol

you get five render cows for vue
but i think you have to pay for each node for the application plugin

it really would have bn nice to give at least three nodes .. to start off

that really kinda disgusted me tho' .. just can't waste to much time to think about it atm .. but really its unethical at worst

ben martin
11-08-2008, 04:16 PM
I promised myself not to get involved with Vue stuff on this forum ...

but I have to ask ..... Mr. Martin what are the bugs you are encountering ??
Hey Cgswami,

Before I reply to your question (and I will) let me clarify one thing.
I only post my notes because I believe people should be aware of some issues before spend a certain value to upgrade to a problematic software.

I don’t have any problem with E-on, Vue or the people that is buying it.
I‘m a user and I also need it!

Regarding E-on, I was Alpha tester to 4 Professional and 5 Infinite and didn't continue cause I had no time to carry on on 6 and probably on 7 despite Nicholas invitation.
In fact some of the features you are dealing in xStream are my suggestion coming form Infinite implementation.

I’m proud to have such nice friendship and relation with E-on president, Nicholas Phelps and some nice members of the dev team. (can't say the same about others E-on dev. team guys though)

In fact after done my upgrade I sent my notes directly no Nicholas and he exchanged some e-mails regarding my considerations about xstream 7, so, I’m not making anti-trust wars or warning the people against the big-bad-money-eater-monster. To me, that role is already taken by Autodesk.

Here you have one transcription of the final e-mail exchange between me and Nicholas, this one does not contain anything that can’t be public domain:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ok,
>>
>> Thanks for your time, patience and for receiving my notes directly.
>>
>> I hope that 7 becomes what you planned cause I know that, if so we (the
>> users) will be very pleased with it.
>>
>> Anyway, I had a lot of crashes (inside Lightwave) and had sent the
>> auto-reports to the dev.team.
>> Hope that in time all this hassles are completely surpassed, but for now I
>> can't relay on 7 to production, I'll keep the good v6.60 instead.
>>
>> Again, thanks for receiving me, cheers.
>
>You're welcome.
>You are right. It's always better to avoid switching tools in the middle of >production. Still, I'm very surprised about all your crashes. Feedback (from >people who bought the product) is generally excellent, and a lot of studios >have actually already switched (which is not something that would be >generally recommended, as stated above).
>
>I recommend you re-test Vue 7 when you're not on a deadline. I'm sure >you'll love it when you get it working right.
>
>Regards
>Nicholas Phelps
>e-on software
>www.e-onsoftware.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, back to the point.

1. I had several crashes when I tried to do basic stuffs like exchange node procedural textures with image mapped ones.

2. I had crashes after hit render.

3. I had cameras movement freezes.
Here you have one of those auto-bug reports and noticed the reply:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Ben,
This is a courtesy e-mail to let you know that a response to your message #1225929508 to e-on software online support services has been posted by one of our technicians.
Your can read the response below, or view the complete message history by clicking here.
The e-on software support technician responded:
________________________________________
Hi Ben,

crash in function editor are very likely to be due to an outdated graphic driver.
try installing a recent and certified driver.

Best regards.
Voodoo
________________________________________

This is an automatic message. Please don't respond to this message by e-mail, but respond online instead.

Thank you for using our online support service. We hope you were fully satisfied with this service.
Best regards from the e-on web team.
This is the kind of reply of someone that doesn’t know what else to say… I have the last video card drivers installed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, computer systems all different, specs have a role to play but buggy software is indeed the most probably guilty one. specially when the previous version does not behave so erratically.

About your involvement on this discussion, hey man, don’t take it all too serious, we are all trying to help people.

Maybe someone’s go and buy Vue after read this thread and maybe some are demoted…
I need it… till now xStream is the only software that can give me environments like any other around, not to talk about the seamless integration (xstream 6.60) and the more interesting Xstream 7 menus branch fusion inside LW.

But I see no justifications to such price in this upgrade just because 7 have a semaless integratiosn and some claimed new generation modules.

Compare this results and let me know what you think about this: (see attached images)

tonybliss
11-08-2008, 04:53 PM
Hey Ben ....

I apreciate the feedback and agree that people should know the issues involved .. its just it seems people are looking for issues with vue .. i myself have experience its bugginess back in 6 and i had one crash this evening .. but i as excessively experimenting with terrains and water .. with the new foam on shore feature .... made the report and when it came back up repeated the process and it did not hapen again.

I guess i am just amazed at the problems people are geting with 7 given my own experience or my hormones are acting up and it is 0_o

plus i did a simple video to show the features and and a very basic run of the integration ... howwever some want me to do a full feature ilm tutorial for them showing the integration ... genuinely i would if i had the time cause i looove to share knowledge but these are some of the things i despise about humans anyway never can make them happy ....
morle

7 is slower than 6 in those renders .. ouch .. same settings ???
to console myself the 7 render is nicer .. nice clouds btw

Cheers and rec to Mr. Phelps to give at least three application nodes to Xstream buyers .. its only fair aftr that price point

buy the software .. col
buy the maintenance .. cool
buy the trees and plants .. not cool ...
buy your first node for xstream .... over 4cking doing it at this point ....

Foda-se .... you know !!!!

ben martin
11-08-2008, 06:47 PM
Hey Ben ....
.... made the report and when it came back up repeated the process and it did not hapen again.

That's part of the problem, many Vue Xstream bugs are completely random, are not coherent in any way... it almost seems a virus walking around Vue internal processes. The funny thing is that the standalone Vue 7 Infinite is more stable that Xstream 7... go figure!


... howwever some want me to do a full feature ilm tutorial for them showing the integration ...
I usually don't give much credit to such kind of defiance. I understand these kinds of people behavior but I truly don't own them that much. If they ask nicely I can even climb a mountain for a friend but I don't buy defiance of any kind.


7 is slower than 6 in those renders .. ouch .. same settings ???
Yup, exactly same scene, same settings... keep in mind though that 7 has different render settings than 6 and the scene coming from 6 are "kind of" adapted to 7 new options, but the settings that we can select are matching in both versions. If you compared boot renders side by side or in sequence you'll notice that the light is more interesting scattered in 6 version render that in 7.



Foda-se .... you know !!!!
Wow... where did you hear or get that Portuguese word? ;D

tonybliss
11-08-2008, 07:34 PM
makes sense .. lol


.. and i love languages .... know a little of some random ones (spanish, japanese, hindi .. learning german now [blame rammstein] .... even the nasties ... have a site for those :P

adrian
11-11-2008, 08:21 AM
Well I have to say the Vue6 Infinite upgrade price is way too steep for me - Das kotzt mich an! - there you go cgswami, a half-naughty German one for you if you didn't know it already :)

(BTW do share the site - would be handy to know when I'm losing on the tennis court!)

DiscoBurgess
11-11-2008, 10:03 AM
I was considering the upgrade just yesterday, until I saw that version 6 had disappeared, and there was no way to go from 5 to 7. So, unfortunately, no sale.

prometheus
11-11-2008, 10:12 AM
hmm..longer renders, that´s interesting.

If I look at one of the images in the vue 7 features page, I can however see a difference in the cloud detail, it´s the image of clouds from above, it has a much nicer perlin billowing effect that I don´t think was possible with vue 6 so that´s a nice improvement and there´s a difference in the light scattering inside cloud aswell.

Ohh by the way, if you haven´t seen it, check out battlestar galactica season four..vipers flying over lots of clouds and Im pretty sure it is vue clouds, probably version 6 thou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oneEAQZGChU&feature=related

Michael

dyls_E
11-11-2008, 10:22 PM
not that ive had much trouble with vue 6, but i have emailed for help once or twice and they were really good. i think thats all i need, simple help for problems specific to individual setups that are not in the FAQs.(such as their auto downloads from cornucopa, and strange content setups) looking foward to 7, should be in mail box any day :)

tonybliss
11-14-2008, 11:14 AM
danke adrian :P

the site

http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/

enjoy and offend with taste :P

JohnMarchant
11-14-2008, 11:49 AM
Well i wont be upgrading, not used enough to justify the cost. I would get Ozone 3 for Lightwave and the rest i will do myself. Heard some bad things about bugs & stuff.

Wonder when Autodesk will bid for Eon then :):):)

flux71
09-11-2009, 05:04 PM
to all,

how to best match atmophere and lighting to LW objects when working with a Vue scene in LW?

say you have the vue plugin going and start a preset scene and drop in "car".

how does one get the car to match all that beautiful Vue Lighting and atmosphere ??

Anything posted on the process regarding this ??

best,

steve

calilifestyle
09-11-2009, 05:29 PM
i would upgrade to 7 if they just give me a damn discount. like they did last year to go from 5 to 6.

am thinking of getting Terragen 2.

ben martin
09-12-2009, 06:13 AM
to all,

how to best match atmophere and lighting to LW objects when working with a Vue scene in LW?

steve

Hi,

I'm not sure if I understood your issue correctly... Vue Xtream, is fully integrated in Lightwave Layout now.
This means that you can kill all Lightwave lights and use only Vue Lights (inside Lightwave Layout) to illuminate your Lightwave scene/objects as well.

Plus, Xtream computes all reflections, lights, shadows on booth worlds.

I only see that specific problem happening if you are not using Xstream and instead you are trying to use the provided Vue/Lightwave camera sync external plug-in witch does not integrates booth aplications (only syncs cameras - and maybe lights position, but I'm not sure about this one).
This is a problem... but for that (if you do not want to get xStream and use the camera sync plugin) you have Ozone for Lightwave.
It brings all the lights and atmospheres to Lightwave Layout solving that problem.
You can test the Ozone 4 PLE version for free.

Let me know if I get your problem right or if am missing something.

Cheers.

lwaddict
09-14-2009, 07:41 AM
Fact is that "on the box" Vue claims to have had integration with Lightwave since 6 XStream, well...sort of.

Also, let's not forget that even 7 continues to have things like random frame to frame lighting issues, random crashing, etc...

Most of the big guys have been using it for mattes, which it's still great for...but for full on animation? Especially HD or greater? Uh...no.

Not yet.

I think maybe, just maybe...
if enough people DON'T buy this next version...
E-On might start listening to the customers instead of working on one of the largest tech support books of excuses I've ever heard.

It's your drivers (check...nope)
It's your OS (check...double check with others...nope)
It's your <page turning>, uh yeah, it's your 3d app (check...double check with others...nope)
It's your <page turning> wait, can you repeat the problem (I could if your software would consistently do anything...nope)
Have a nice day!

For mattes you don't need to kahuna package...
COMPLETE is great and does the job.
I'd wait until I heard crowds, literally crowds of followers praising the software before I'd move forward with another rendition of promises from the XStream packages.

Seriously.

On a bright note...
if and when you get this package to work, it's like none other.
I think it's why so many of us what it with baited breath...
because on the day that they fix it and fix it good...
I'd pay a lot more than they're asking and I'm sure others would.
But it's got to do what it says on the box first.

ben martin
09-14-2009, 01:15 PM
Most of the big guys have been using it for mattes, which it's still great for...but for full on animation? Especially HD or greater? Uh...no.


I hear you!
I'm Nicholas friend and I was part of some Vue developing cycles main-BETA team.
I had my opportunities to let them know what was failing (from my point of view).

I hear your claims and agree but I also must say that they do try to create solutions!
If they succeed, well, that's another completely different story.

Reminds me of Newtek during the 7 to 8 and 8 to 9 cycles.
They always gave us more of the same and no real solutions to very old problems.
I also must say that I'm a little septic about this CORE version... let hope and see!

Final Note:
I believe this:
They sure know how to do it and how to do it right at the first attempt, but hey... why should they kill the businesses doing it?
I’m pretty sure that, by now, everyone understands that this kind of business is like gum. You chew and chew and it goes-on and on and on… in the mean wile, money fall into their pockets.

About the issue, sadly there are no much choices to Vue in the market.
Excluding Terragen 2, that in my opinion has a very slow rendering engine plus the interconnectivity to Lightwave is almost inexistent.
We can rumble and do a lot of noise, but in the end, when it comes to production... Vue is present and people can use it... I do anyway.
If you can do your stuff with a cheaper and basic version using the camera sync plug-in instead of xstream, well, great!

I have the xStream versions (7.4 and 6) and yet, I still prefer using the old 6 instead… it does what I need faster than 7, so why bother?
It is exactly the same with Lightwave 9.6, it does what I need, so why bother about CORE?

Cheers

lwaddict
09-16-2009, 08:05 AM
Exactly.

Why bother?
Not just with Core but with any of the latest 'upgrades'.

I've got several packages that I've been upgrading forever with and there seems to have been a stopping or extreme slowing point with the progress...but not with the accepting of my money or with the frustrations of resetting up my workflow around said 'newer' versions of software.

I'm sticking with what I've got for now...
I'm old school so I know mattes, backdrops, roto, matchmoving, comp, etc... all the tricks to get what we need.
In the end, it's the shot that matters and not how you got there.

Still...I'm a loyalist to those that have done me right. And Newtek's got my ear with this Core business. E-On on the other hand...well...customer service anyone? LOL.

And anyone tell you how much you look like a very young Savini?

ben martin
09-16-2009, 01:02 PM
Exactly.
And anyone tell you how much you look like a very young Savini?
LOL, nop you are the first... besides I'm turning 43 this month so, not very young too. :)

lwaddict
09-17-2009, 06:27 PM
In that case, you'll always be the young looking Savini. LOL.