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cresshead
08-05-2003, 01:57 PM
gushing water in children of dune....looked fantastic!..well "real"..
on the stream from the newtek booth the chap behind the fx said they used lightwave "out the box" with only sasquatch full as the only additional plugin...
when asked about the water fx in the film he said it was done with hypervoxels...and looking at it ..maya's new fluid fx would have been proud of the results...and we have it built in the the base version of lightwave...

i'd love to see a tutorial on how thay did it...or hints please!

deuce..proton??? can you ask for a bit of info on that??

steve g

EyesClosed
08-05-2003, 02:20 PM
Can't you start threads or reply to them without taking jabs at software you've never used? :rolleyes:

nonproductive
08-05-2003, 03:16 PM
Where was the jab? the Maya comment? I read that more as "Lightwave is a great value" rather than putting Maya down. *shrug*

Unfortunately, I can't comment on the technique used for the water.

I would like to add to the request though by asking about the cables being fired from the carryall to the ground. I believe it was said that they used an alpha map? Would love for somone to enlighten me on that as well.

pixelmonk
08-05-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
Can't you start threads or reply to them without taking jabs at software you've never used? :rolleyes:


where's the jab? How do YOU know what he has or hasn't used?

You could've just agreed and said, "yeah... a tutorial or hints on that would help the LW community tremendously.

:mad:

cresshead
08-05-2003, 04:29 PM
hi
i'll just add that the water fx looked amazing...something that maya unlimited can do with ease with the addition of the fluid fx..no i don't have maya unlimited..but it does look amazing for fluids..from their videos...so where's the put down there??...

maybe i missed something as i'm from the u.k...do you have wider gaps inbetween your lines over in the usa?..could it be your reading things i can't see!..or wrote.

bottom line is that the fluids in that t.v film are very good..as good as i've seen with real flow or realwave..and no i'm not putting those apps down either!!!

steve g

cresshead
08-05-2003, 04:36 PM
and my friend eyesclosed:

whole quote:
"Can't you start threads or reply to them without taking jabs at software you've never used? "


yes i can..and do..can YOU not reply to thread without putting down what anyone writes about anything?

i'm trying to hilight a positive about lightwave 7.5 and you turn it into a slanging match..just why i don't know..really some people have a funny outlook on life...

hope your time on the planet is fruitful and full of joy.

steve g

Elmar Moelzer
08-05-2003, 05:36 PM
Cresshead!
I am with you. This water is excellent!
I dont think it would have been easy to get that done with any software
A real good looking, convincing effect always is hard work, no matter what app you use (be it LW, MAYA, MAX, or whatever) or how you do it (compositing, 3d etc).
The work A51 has done on that miniseries (not only the fluids) is outstanding and it should be a benchmark for all of us and an example to everyone who doubts LWs capabilities.
CU
Elmar

anieves
08-05-2003, 05:43 PM
humm, I missed that shot in the stream... dang.
curious. does anybody has screen grabs or something?

cresshead
08-05-2003, 05:47 PM
i know you could call me a little sad but i have 24hours of video tape from the stream!..8 hours per day!!!....a 4 hour v tape set to long play..so yup i have the water section and have watched a few times..same with the worm which as just amazing...most of it was animated from 2 null objects!

soooo much to learn eh?

steve g

anieves
08-05-2003, 05:48 PM
can you post a still frame of the water?

cresshead
08-05-2003, 05:55 PM
sure check back here tomorrow [i'm off the sleep now!..it's nearlt 1am in the uk]

i'll do a few stills to show off the water animation.

or you can get the streamed video which is stored here.

http://www.3dgarage.com/Sig03/Sig03_DM2_Dune.wmv


steve g:D

chriz
08-06-2003, 01:03 AM
Hi:

Although I layed out the shots for the worm capture, it was Ryan Carter who did the particle and shading work for the water. Kudos to Ryan!

Original1
08-06-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by anieves
humm, I missed that shot in the stream... dang.
curious. does anybody has screen grabs or something?


http://www.tv3d.com/Sig03/LW8.htm

Yog
08-06-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by nonproductive

I would like to add to the request though by asking about the cables being fired from the carryall to the ground. I believe it was said that they used an alpha map? Would love for somone to enlighten me on that as well.

I thought they said a "displacement" map. As in the displacement helped create that whipping back and forth effect in the parts of the cable that were slack.

cresshead
08-06-2003, 03:23 AM
i've got it on tape but from memory i think he said a displacement map which was controlled with a gradient as well.

steve g

Original1
08-06-2003, 03:51 AM
This is one area were I feel Lightwave has been let down in the past couple of years , examples and tutorials were done by people who were mainly marketers and programmers, wereas to get the best out of Lightwave you need to be an effects artist working at the sharp end every day.


Hypervoxels are a case in point, they are a wonderful tool, but under documentented, so most people can't use them to best effect straight out of the box.

cresshead
08-06-2003, 04:18 AM
yup!

that's why i posted this message in the first place!!!!!

i'd really like to understand the "how to" on that fx shot as it look so darn amazing...

proton???
duce??
chuck??

newtek???

give that fx chap a call and make a tutorial that can show how it was done please!!!!!!

steve g

Howzat
08-06-2003, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by chriz
Hi:

Although I layed out the shots for the worm capture, it was Ryan Carter who did the particle and shading work for the water. Kudos to Ryan!
Hey Chriz, are you from area 51? If so, FANTASTIC work!
Great to see you posting here.

nonproductive
08-06-2003, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by Yog
I thought they said a "displacement" map. As in the displacement helped create that whipping back and forth effect in the parts of the cable that were slack.

Very possible I mis-heard.
When I did get the chance to fire the streams up I could never pay 100% attention to them. So very likely I didn't hear correctly.

:)

Cman
08-06-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
yup!

that's why i posted this message in the first place!!!!!

i'd really like to understand the "how to" on that fx shot as it look so darn amazing...

proton???
duce??
chuck??

newtek???

give that fx chap a call and make a tutorial that can show how it was done please!!!!!!

steve g

Maybe they won't because it's a corporate secret. Y'know, if you're a Producer and want that effect in your program, you have to call them.
If they told everyone how to do it, then that Producer could call anyone - and so they've lost their competitive edge by being friendly.
Maybe?

UnCommonGrafx
08-06-2003, 07:41 AM
You guys know the answer to the question: they used a ...boatload of particles for it and accepted some really extremely high render times for those scenes.

There was no shortcut, I'll bet. ;)

I think most of 'us' don't see such results because we aren't willing (read: time challenged) to spend the time waiting on two-hour renders per frame. :rolleyes:
The guys at Area51 truly have a lot to be proud of with their efforts on COD.

Chuck
08-06-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Original1
This is one area were I feel Lightwave has been let down in the past couple of years , examples and tutorials were done by people who were mainly marketers and programmers, wereas to get the best out of Lightwave you need to be an effects artist working at the sharp end every day.

Actually up until the last couple of years the tutorials in the manuals and on the website were typically done by marketing staff or dev team, but the more than one hundred tutorials added in the last year are by working artists. While William is now in our marketing department, he is in fact a working artist and he undertook the revision of our LW docs for the help file edition, as well as creating a series of interface walk-throughs and many of the tutorials. In addition, for both this SIGGRAPH and the previous, William, with able assistance from Deuce and other contributing artists, has created extensive content demonstrating many of the functions and capabilities of LightWave, and these scenes and objects constitute a major learning resource in themselves.

We have additional training material in progress for inclusion with LightWave, also developed by LightWave artists "working at the sharp end every day."



Hypervoxels are a case in point, they are a wonderful tool, but under documentented, so most people can't use them to best effect straight out of the box.

We're working on substantial improvements to our documentation and tutorial material for all aspects of LightWave, including entirely new content and sample scenes.

anieves
08-06-2003, 10:56 AM
just saw the gushing water video... humm, maybe the water is fast enough to get away with a volume cloud mixed with geometry... at least that's where I would start.

Mike Pauza
08-06-2003, 11:13 AM
cresshead:

I really enjoyed Children of Dune. The Worm Capture sequence is quite impressive. :) Either Area 51 has some nice new dynamics tools (LW8) or thier animators are incredible (using dynamics would have been the easy way to do it though). Either way they deserve their Emmy!!!

-Mike Pauza

WilliamVaughan
08-06-2003, 11:20 AM
They created all of Children of Dune with LightWave 7.5 and a full version of Sasquatch.....pretty amazing stuff! Imagine what they will be doing with LW8 :)

Mike Pauza
08-06-2003, 11:27 AM
That's amazing.

I rewatched the worm capture sequence before I posted, and I couldn't tell if it was done "by hand" or not.

cresshead
08-06-2003, 11:27 AM
hi chuck n proton..well done on the show..was a blast to watch over here in the u.k. [i taped it too]

i 'm hoping there may be some teaser tutorials from such effects in lightwave 8..maybe not a full run thru from area 51 but a starting point or two!

good luck

steve g

WilliamVaughan
08-06-2003, 11:35 AM
We will have lots of LW8 tutorials when the time comes....and I will ask Don at Area 51 if they are up for a few tutorials....

Exper
08-06-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by proton
We will have lots of LW8 tutorials when the time comes....and I will ask Don at Area 51 if they are up for a few tutorials.... Come on... and thanks a lot! :D

Bye.

cresshead
08-06-2003, 11:46 AM
cheers,
newtek really rocks [as if we didn't know it!]

it's truly a breath of fresh air to see a company like netek actually talk to their users and listen...such a difference from my other 3d app that i use and teach with...

looking forward to finally retiring the "max" this year.

steve g

Original1
08-06-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Chuck




We're working on substantial improvements to our documentation and tutorial material for all aspects of LightWave, including entirely new content and sample scenes.

Chuck,

I am well aware of the work William is doing, I did a flash piece for him based on the manual on the image editor which didn't make it on to the site, then I got tied up on another programming project, and havenot had time to contribute further. Compared to what went before from "he who must not be named";) JOKE Williams stuff is a breath of fresh air.

I am not been critical, I am trying to make sure that you guys know what is needed, esp. in Europe if you want to increase your Market share. In my opinion the package is undersold here and 90% of the users don't know what Lightwave is capable of.

It took me ages to find the selection Info tool which is on of the most useful tools for close modelling when you have selected 2 or more points/polys that are really close together.

Original1
08-06-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
cheers,
newtek really rocks [as we didn't know!]

it's truly a breath of fresh air to see a company like netek actually talk to their users and listen...such a difference from my other 3d app that i use and teach with...

looking forward to finally retiring the "max" this year.

steve g

For that I need a better shockwave exporter :p

Original1
08-06-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
Actually up until the last couple of years the tutorials in the manuals and on the website were typically done by marketing staff or dev team, but the more than one hundred tutorials added in the last year are by working artists. While William is now in our marketing department, he is in fact a working artist and he undertook the revision of our LW docs for the help file edition, as well as creating a series of interface walk-throughs and many of the tutorials.

Holy ****!

Has William been there 2 years already???

Where did those years go

chriz
08-06-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Howzat
Hey Chriz, are you from area 51? If so, FANTASTIC work!
Great to see you posting here.

Thanks!
I was a 3d supervisor on Children of Dune, and one of my main responsibilites was the worm capture sequence. Although there is a little bit of legacy Relativity used on parts of the worm (i was too lazy to rewrite all the expressions in the LW engine), that whole scene is otherwise vanilla Lightwave. Ryan's water is PFx, objects, and hypervoxel sprites, as are many of the dust/dirt/fire plumes. Other than PFx on particles, there's no dynamics plugins or any beta stuff in there. It's all LW 7/7.5. Ted Helmers tackled the whipping harpoon cables, and he used displacement maps with some clever gradients to govern falloff. There might have been some morphs in there, but i think the final was all displacement maps.

Another tidbit: the worm has LoD textures that are governed by 'distance to camera' gradients. This allowed us to use the worm at any distance without it sparkling.

In short, gradients can be your friend.

Original1
08-07-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by chriz
Thanks!
I was a 3d supervisor on Children of Dune, and one of my main responsibilites was the worm capture sequence. Although there is a little bit of legacy Relativity used on parts of the worm (i was too lazy to rewrite all the expressions in the LW engine), that whole scene is otherwise vanilla Lightwave. Ryan's water is PFx, objects, and hypervoxel sprites, as are many of the dust/dirt/fire plumes. Other than PFx on particles, there's no dynamics plugins or any beta stuff in there. It's all LW 7/7.5. Ted Helmers tackled the whipping harpoon cables, and he used displacement maps with some clever gradients to govern falloff. There might have been some morphs in there, but i think the final was all displacement maps.

Another tidbit: the worm has LoD textures that are governed by 'distance to camera' gradients. This allowed us to use the worm at any distance without it sparkling.

In short, gradients can be your friend.

Chris may I just say that CoD looks a phenominal piece of work,
I'm a big Frank Herbet fan, do you know when it is due to air in the UK.


I look forward to tutorials on all 3 techniques shipping with Lightwave 8.0 HINT HINT PROTON & CHUCK :D :D :D

PS William I dont care how much you have to bribe these guys

colkai
08-07-2003, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by chriz
Ryan's water is PFx, objects, and hypervoxel sprites, as are many of the dust/dirt/fire plumes. Other than PFx on particles, there's no dynamics plugins or any beta stuff in there. It's all LW 7/7.5

Aww - come on, give us a hint - please???
At least tell us if the particle count was huge or if some of it was faked ;)

OOhh - hang on 'pfx, OBJECTS and V Sprites.
Maybe some of the water was morphed stream objects with mapping - yeah? maybe? possibly? :p

RCFX
08-11-2003, 04:30 PM
As Chriz said, I did the water effects for Children Of Dune. Basically it was 3 particle emitters with a polygonal water plate for the areas where you see a little blue. If I remember correctly (it has been a year since I did it), there was one emitter that mabe up the bulk of the water, which had the volumetrics said to a fairly large size. Then there was a second emitter that was for all the churning water at the very front. This emitter was hand animated to move with the other particles. A third emitter, also at the front, gave me some spray and splashes at the tip. All of the sprayed over a subdivived, fractally-displaced plate that was shaded sloghtly blue, high specularity, and had white foam mixed in using more fractal textures. All of the particles moved down an extremely low poly trench which served as a collision object, invisible to the camera, that I could raise along with the polygonal water to give the impression that the trench was filling. Additional emmitters were also used for the waterfall and corner shots, just to give me a bigger splash at the point of impact. All the volumetrics were in Sprite mode and each particle object, the poly water, and the trench were rendered seperately. When comped in After Effects, I was able to reshade, soften, blur, and even mask out stray particles. Even going element by element. some renders took over 3 hours a frame on a 1 ghz machine. I had the technique down by about take 4, the particle motion right by about take 10, but I didn't get the volumetrics right until take 29.

cresshead
08-11-2003, 04:52 PM
thanks for the info...it looks amazing well done on that shot and your very dedicated to making stunning fx by no mistake [take 29!]


steve g

colkai
08-12-2003, 02:27 AM
Ryan,
Many thanks for the info1 :)
You deserve a great deal of praise for what I think is the best Lightwave water so far seen! :cool:

It is still amazing to me that we get to share with people who do these sort of things, so us mere mortals have a chance at raising our game.

Looking into my crystal ball, I see lots of animators furiously trying to reproduce the same effect with their setups :p

Thank you once again for explaining the details, we are, most assuredly, not worthy.

Cresshead 'Take 29' - I guess this is what most tutorials mean by "tweak it until you're happy" ;) ;) ;)

Hervé
08-12-2003, 02:34 AM
That look cool, but where can I see this fabulous splash fx ..?

Thanks

Preferably on the web as I have no TV or dvd or vcr... please...

RCFX
08-12-2003, 02:40 AM
Here are some stills . I also have an online demo reel which has the water shots, but its a 40 meg Quicktime file. That can be found at http://www.hallofshadows.com/reel.htm. Its three and a half minutes long and the water is at the very end

RCFX
08-12-2003, 02:41 AM
Another Still

Hervé
08-12-2003, 02:58 AM
Woaw, Thanks a lot Ryan, I am checking right now....

Thanks

Hervé
08-12-2003, 03:04 AM
Dunno, but All I get is the QT logo on a black page with your name...

any ....

dwburman
08-12-2003, 11:35 AM
I got the logo too, but IE's status bar tells me it's loading. (right now 17MB of 40.5 MB)

RCFX
08-12-2003, 11:39 AM
Told ya it was a big file! :-P

Original1
08-12-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Hervé
That look cool, but where can I see this fabulous splash fx ..?

Thanks

Preferably on the web as I have no TV or dvd or vcr... please...

http://www.tv3d.com/Sig03/LW8.htm

Hervé
08-12-2003, 11:51 PM
The splashing FX is realllllly goood, also the bridge destruction is woaw... !!! thanks for the link....

Thanks a lot.... you should make some tuts, they 'll sell like pina coladas in middle of desert....

R4s1n
12-01-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by RCFX
Here are some stills . I also have an online demo reel which has the water shots, but its a 40 meg Quicktime file. That can be found at http://www.hallofshadows.com/reel.htm. Its three and a half minutes long and the water is at the very end

its seems like the link doesnt work anymore....Is it possible to link it back since i havent had the chance to preview the video?

Thanx in advance!

RCFX
12-01-2003, 04:18 PM
I'm not sure where or if the raw clips for that scene are still up, but if you're willing to download a 40 meg file and sit thru to the very end of a 3 1/2 minute demo reel, the 3 water shots can be found at http://www.hallofshadows.com/reel.htm . There are a couple stills on that site as well.

Jockomo
12-01-2003, 10:13 PM
"some renders took over 3 hours a frame on a 1 ghz "

Thank you, now I don't feel so stupid, or my computer doesn't seem as lame is it did when I saw that the first time anyway.

Just curious, did you guys set out with a goal of trying to do it all in Lightwave? Or did it just sort of happen that way?

Thanks for the info guys, you're work is really inspiring.

RCFX
12-01-2003, 10:22 PM
Well doing the show in Lightwave was really a topic for debate. Many television effects houses such as Area 51 have always been Lightwave based so that if you give them a show, its gets done in Lightwave. Besides, digital enviroments (which were a huge chunk of the project) have always been one of Lightwave's strong points. And lets face it......from a budget standpoint....Lightwave is hard to beat :)

Hervé
12-01-2003, 11:29 PM
3 hours are nothing on LW... I mean some renders I do take 4, 6, 20 hours to render..... he he he

RCFX
12-02-2003, 03:51 AM
Ya... we had worse on Dune. The hypervoxel dust storm took 7 hours in some shots if I remember correctly (Ken's awesome particle work). And just to clarify, thats PER FRAME...and that was just for a single water element. Most shots had at least 3 seperate voxel elements, a polygonal water element, a trough element, and often a background plate. All combined, you're looking at 6-7 hours per frame combined and these shots were all around 100 or so frames long... meaning over 600 hours of processor time. Gotta love that render farm!!!

Zarathustra
12-02-2003, 12:51 PM
so how exactly do you know how you're doing as you put together a scene like that if a test shot takes over 5 hours?

Nemoid
12-02-2003, 12:52 PM
Jeez! you guys at Area51 made an astonishing work! really I hope to see this series here in Italy soon too. if not i will buy the dvd!!

as for render times, fortunately with Lw we have unlimited rendering nodes to build huge renderfarms with the "only" price of the machines!!! :) I think this is great in such cases.

anieves
12-02-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
so how exactly do you know how you're doing as you put together a scene like that if a test shot takes over 5 hours?

probably the same way we do at work... low res test renders and comping, turning raytracing off, no transparencies, no fancy stuff for visualization and single frame comps to see how the elements are coming toghether...

You tend to find "creative" ways to get around huge rendertimes for that kind of situation.

oh, and the kick *** renderfarm comes kinda handy too;)

RCFX
12-02-2003, 01:09 PM
Ya...basically what he said......half rez and no frills. With enough procs on it, usually there were enough frames done by the following morning to do a quick and dirty comp to check motion. Open GL voxels, Viper, and plain ol' particle previews were a big part of it as well.

riki
12-02-2003, 06:19 PM
I can't wait to see the reel, downloading it now. The screenshots of the water look amazing.

CB_3D
12-03-2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by chriz
Another tidbit: the worm has LoD textures that are governed by 'distance to camera' gradients. This allowed us to use the worm at any distance without it sparkling.

In short, gradients can be your friend.

Now there´s a tut i´d like to read.;)