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DiedonD
10-26-2008, 12:03 AM
Morning everyone

I went to Gallery of Finished work again! And there wasnt a reply to it yet.

So I had an thorough look to all the other threads, and I noticed that there isnt much going on over there! So I thought perhaps we could open up, and understand as to why isnt that happening enough.

Theres only one 186 replies to Reeds thread, and 47 about the space SF movie. Then theres a 27 and the rest are way below!

So why is that? Seeing Proton's thread has 504 replies, and Reeds 186 replies, makes you wonder that perhaps it has to be something for the replier for one to choose to make a reply! Surely Proton has alot to give. And that one on Reeds was about dynamics. So perhaps thats one of them. But even they it took almost two months to get to that many replies. While Virtulcomposers - How do you think the elections will turn out, reached 850 for 12 days!

Then perhaps a majority are beginners and may not feel confident to make a remark.

And then some may be too bussy.

Does anyone else has any ideas as to why the Galleries arent geting it enough?

Matt
10-26-2008, 05:16 AM
Laziness?

DiedonD
10-26-2008, 05:27 AM
Laziness?

Hey Matt

You really think so?

Bah, I think its sad really. I mean if we dont show the work done from LW to ourselves with the intention of receiving some feedback...

I dont know. It was suppose to come naturally I think, to critique, to spot something and say: 'Yaaawnnnn. Njham, njham. That there buddy. That sucks, cause the light is bad' or something.

How hard can it be?

IMI
10-26-2008, 05:53 AM
Personally, I don't feel right about giving criticism unless asked for it, and when it comes to technical things in LW, I don't believe myself to be particularly qualified to give criticism, except in a few areas. I'll leave that up to the pros. ;)

And I've never been much of a "Wow, awesome work, man!" type of guy either, except very rarely. I figure, the guys who make the awesome work already know it, and don't really need to hear it from me, too. ;)

warrenwc
10-26-2008, 08:27 AM
Well,
criticize is spelled without an "s"...
:-)

mkiii
10-26-2008, 09:31 AM
Well,
criticize is spelled without an "s"...
:-)
Actually, not everyone in the world uses American spellings. In fact quite a few use the proper Queens English (some of them even live in Britain).

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticise

Criticise, colour, tyres. Take that!
Aluminium, aeroplane, axe, analyse, programme, dialogue, favourite, flavour, honour, flavour, ... and that!
Centre, metre, theatre,


And finally. Encyclopaedia, manoeuvre, mediaeval


Bwhuhaha!
http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwesl/egw/jones/spelling.htm

Dexter2999
10-26-2008, 10:02 AM
I stopped critisizing "Finished Works". To me the title seemed to imply the artist is done with them. They are what they are.

I feel like I have more constructive input in the WIP threads but I rarely go in there much.

JeffrySG
10-26-2008, 11:58 AM
:agree:

Yeah, I always though the WIP area was a better place to really get constructive crits, but either way I always did find that the WIP and the gallery areas here do not get a lot of traffic. Usually when i work on something, I'll post it in another forum if I'm looking for actual crits on it. Such as foundation3d.com or spinquad.com or CGTalk.com, etc.

WilliamVaughan
10-26-2008, 12:18 PM
For alot of people it's a Time Issue. But for some I agree with Matt...laziness.

Who knows... I'm just happy when I see the "views" ...having people see something i did is equally as cool as people leaving comments

Also- The 503 replies in my thread is not really accurate. That thread turned into an R&D thread and is a great resource for exploring those tools. Not just a Look at this image" thread. So it is weighted different then other thread sin that section...

Something to think about

geothefaust
10-26-2008, 12:57 PM
I think it's a couple of issues. Time, laziness, and qualifications.

For me, it's that most of the time I don't feel qualified to judge someone's work. I do like to go in to WIP threads and check out what is going on frequently though.

warrenwc
10-26-2008, 02:03 PM
Actually, not everyone in the world uses American spellings. In fact quite a few use the proper Queens English (some of them even live in Britain).

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticise

Criticise, colour, tyres. Take that!
Aluminium, aeroplane, axe, analyse, programme, dialogue, favourite, flavour, honour, flavour, ... and that!
Centre, metre, theatre,


And finally. Encyclopaedia, manoeuvre, mediaeval


Bwhuhaha!
http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwesl/egw/jones/spelling.htm

C'mon guy's.
He just asked for critisisms ;-p
Didn't say they had to be correct.

DiedonD
10-27-2008, 02:14 AM
Good morning everyone. Slept well? Alright :)

@IMI



Personally, I don't feel right about giving criticism unless asked for it, and when it comes to technical things in LW, I don't believe myself to be particularly qualified to give criticism, except in a few areas. I'll leave that up to the pros.

And I've never been much of a "Wow, awesome work, man!" type of guy either, except very rarely. I figure, the guys who make the awesome work already know it, and don't really need to hear it from me, too.


The problem is I think, the pro's, they are probably the busiest people to begin with!

Besides. I think not all here are pro's, and I personally would much rather appreciate the common day to day language of evaluating an image, however much a person is qualified, and just bring it out there in such a manner.

It reminds me of the US Psychodynamics professor that we use to have. The previous regime gave way too much power to previous professors here. And since how well of a comprehension was made was immediately understood in a question, students would hesitate to ask, even if they didnít understood the slightest bit from the lecture!! When applied the same to that US professor, he would be angry as he would find us totally silent and observing him numbly while he would go on saying 'Have you understood it!? Ask me anything!! ' And the more he asked the more silence we gave ironically.

Anyway. IMI, if someone has put his work on the Gallery of Finished, he is definitely asking for it man. And any feedback is better then none. ANY, at all! Be it crushing the work to bits, or even the unclear usual one like 'I find it bad, period' that doesnít really say as to why be it 'bad' thus lacking the much needed and starved for feedback!

@Neverko


Everyone's busy in the political threads.

Yeah, including ourselves! But I think we ought to balance it out man. I believe that we are artists that sometimes are thed up from performing, and then dwell in all kind of other topics including politics. And NOT the other way around! Thatís just me. I think that The Galleries deserve a better flow. I think its sadly starving for it presently!

@Dexter & Jeffrey SG



I stopped criticizing "Finished Works". To me the title seemed to imply the artist is done with them. They are what they are.

I feel like I have more constructive input in the WIP threads but I rarely go in there much.


Well yeah. I agree. Apart that, if everyone just bothers with the WIP, they should then probably remove the whole Finished one by that logic! I mean, the later also needs to hear out what people have to say after the 'TADDAAA, What do you think :hey: '

And Jeffrey, I think we oughta make this place as good as them there. If you say they are so good to give feedbacks, we oughta make one here just like it.

@ Proton



For allot of people it's a Time Issue. But for some I agree with Matt...Laziness.
Who knows... I'm just happy when I see the "views" ...having people see something i did is equally as cool as people leaving comments
Also- The 503 replies in my thread is not really accurate. That thread turned into an R&D thread and is a great resource for exploring those tools. Not just a Look at this image" thread. So it is weighted different then other thread sin that section...
Something to think about


Yes thatís what Iím talking about! I too VERY, VERY much would ENJOY seeing just the VIEWS then! If making a crit MUST come with qualification (Which I donít think it should if the cost is starvation from them!) then a normal POV would be a feedback as well!

Also regarding your 503 replies, I knew it had something to do with your lectures even without getting in it LOL. Cause I had a feeling that there oughta be something for the replier, in order to make it that high, and you sure give ALOT to us to benefit from :thumbsup: We're so glad to have an enforcer like you onboard :thumbsup:

@Javis



I think it's a couple of issues. Time, laziness, and qualifications.

For me, it's that most of the time I don't feel qualified to judge someone's work. I do like to go in to WIP threads and check out what is going on frequently though.


You wrapped it up quite well Javis. Time, Laziness and Qualifications indeed. I just would like to tell you that, in a present sad Starving for Feedback situation that the Gallery currently is, with the great things to show for ourselves, perhaps we could just skip the Qualification part, and give out a comment with the least amount of energy required whenever someone finds time to make a simple POV.

As if walking on your way to the cinema and you see a poster on the siding, and say to yourself 'I sure hate that one'. I think the Starving Galleries would like to hear you on that one weather youíre qualified or not!

@WarenWC



C'mon guy's.
He just asked for critisisms ;-p
Didn't say they had to be correct.


Thatís right. If one starves, he couldnít care less if the food is a Caviar or Bread and Butter really!

zardoz
10-27-2008, 04:03 AM
well...usually I have one or two reasons for not commenting on something...one is that the subject isn't interesting for me, and this is not a critic on someone else's work but as an example I'm not a big fan of cars, so...when I see a car rendering I don't feel like saying something...(I'm a fan of WW2 planes...) I would only say anything if some technical aspect may interest me.
Interior renders...same reason...actually right now I'm trying to do an interior. But it's not my thing...

And if I don't think I'm going to add anything to the already posted comments I won't do it too. I guess that's it.

IMI
10-27-2008, 04:17 AM
@IMI
Anyway. IMI, if someone has put his work on the Gallery of Finished, he is definitely asking for it man. And any feedback is better then none. ANY, at all! Be it crushing the work to bits, or even the unclear usual one like 'I find it bad, period' that doesn’t really say as to why be it 'bad' thus lacking the much needed and starved for feedback!


Depends on how you look at it. As someone else said, if it's in the "Finished" category, it's finished. I'm not going to say, "hey, you call this finished - what's up with that [insert technical mumbo-jumbo here]" ;)

And the other thing to consider is, just because someone posts some work, doesn't make anyone else obligated to comment on it. There have been times when I've been really impressed with something and left a positive comment, there have been times when I've been really impressed and said nothing - all depends on my mood, really.
OTOH, when *I* ask for comments, equally I expect nothing, and I ask politely for something specific and follow it up with a "Thanks" and a :)

In the end, it's all up to every individual how he/she wants to use this site, how he/she wants to interact with others, and nobody here should feel obligated to do anything but follow the rules. :)

It's not rude to not comment, and it doesn't make you a better member for having done so.

biliousfrog
10-27-2008, 11:16 AM
Do you really need to be skilled, qualified, experienced or 'better' to have an opinion?

I have been made to feel guilty for giving contructive criticism but I have also had some very appreciative comments from people that wanted 'genuine' comments.

As an example, I spent several years chasing a record deal in the early - mid 90's and we would regularly travel to various gigs around the UK and Europe. It was very hard work and we did our fair share of crappy shows to a handful of people with no interest in us what-so-ever, when our friends would regularly play to full clubs in our home town every week.

So why did we stick at it?

Because every so often we'd get a complete stranger come up to us and say, 'I really enjoyed that, thanks'. To me, that meant much more than having the same friends and family patting me on the back every week...and, because we pushed ourselves, we got to play some great shows and tell some great stories about A&R guys and VIP areas.

So don't feel that you need to qualify to have an opinion. Your opinion is just as vaild as anyone else's and if the thread starter can't take criticism then they'll suffer in the long-term. I'm not very good at character animation but I know whether someone else is and will gladly point out faults so that they can improve. If they would rather make excuses then so be it.

Perhaps you can't offer a solution but everyone can offer critique.

virtualcomposer
10-27-2008, 11:42 AM
Do you really need to be skilled, qualified, experienced or 'better' to have an opinion?

I have been made to feel guilty for giving contructive criticism but I have also had some very appreciative comments from people that wanted 'genuine' comments.

As an example, I spent several years chasing a record deal in the early - mid 90's and we would regularly travel to various gigs around the UK and Europe. It was very hard work and we did our fair share of crappy shows to a handful of people with no interest in us what-so-ever, when our friends would regularly play to full clubs in our home town every week.

So why did we stick at it?

Because every so often we'd get a complete stranger come up to us and say, 'I really enjoyed that, thanks'. To me, that meant much more than having the same friends and family patting me on the back every week...and, because we pushed ourselves, we got to play some great shows and tell some great stories about A&R guys and VIP areas.

So don't feel that you need to qualify to have an opinion. Your opinion is just as vaild as anyone else's and if the thread starter can't take criticism then they'll suffer in the long-term. I'm not very good at character animation but I know whether someone else is and will gladly point out faults so that they can improve. If they would rather make excuses then so be it.

Perhaps you can't offer a solution but everyone can offer critique.

Well said. I think critique is good but the encouragements help me keep going on the project. I feel like, "hey, if other animators like this with different points of view, then it must be good, but if they don't, then I'm probably missing something since more then one person said it". It's everyone's choice to either critique or uplift a project. For me personally, I like good, constructive criticism but not constant. It all goes down to balance. We're all here to help and encourage people on this forum. Especially now in days in these hard times. Speaking for myself, it feels good to have a feeling of accomplishment with something I've been working on and spending hours studying tutorials to make it look great. It's that little boost of satisfaction of hard work paid off. I have personally noticed a good balance on this forum of critique that is usually not harsh but just basic info. Don't get me wrong, I love criticism because it shows the weaknesses I need to focus on but not to the point where the people criticizing acts arrogant or nastily blunt. I don't think anyone likes that.

ben martin
10-27-2008, 12:05 PM
To me, this place (NT forum), is a place where I come to discuss problems, solutions, and call bad names to NT because they don't developed LW-CA like they should.
Even now I can't threatened them to leave to XSi cause e I really hate AutoD, but don't get much comfortable (NT) cause Blender is right there at the corner, approaching at speed-of-light! :D

Anyway, sometimes I come here to help and sometimes because I like to discuss some issues not always fully 3D related.

About criticize (the word criticism is with "s"… but criticize is not) other's work, huh… most of the times that I did it, two bad things happened:
1. The guy didn't liked it much. :screwy:
2. There are always weird explanations to the image to look like it is, so I quit doing that. :stumped:

Each image worst what it worsts; some a thousand words others a "phweww".
Anyway… this is my point of view!

CMT
10-27-2008, 01:03 PM
If you can't say anything nice about a piece, you shouldn't say anything..... Which is why if I can't find anything good in an image, I won't. :D

Nah, seriously though, a lot of the time I just pass over posts without critiquing is because I am just not in the mood. Sometimes I just want to look at some cool pics.

But when I do end up offering a critique, I'll give it no matter if it's finished or not. But I'll offer my crits, then add what I DO think is working. Positive and negative. If they know exactly what's working, they can concentrate more on what's not.

zardoz
10-28-2008, 03:22 AM
Do you really need to be skilled, qualified, experienced or 'better' to have an opinion?

I couldn't agree more.
Dont' we always criticize football players while watching a game? or some actor in a movie? Or when we go to some restaurant and the food is crap? I'm a lousy cook but I can say that some food is bad...Do we have to be better than them to criticize their work? No. We know what we like. That's what happens here...I criticize anybody's work...sometimes I don't because I don't feel like it.
Sometimes we know more about some technical aspect than the person posting the work and maybe we can add something to that person's knowledge (we have some great users of this forum that do that all the time. Thanks to them).

I guess it's that simple.

DiedonD
10-28-2008, 04:47 AM
Morning everyone!

@biliousfrog


Do you really need to be skilled, qualified, experienced or 'better' to have an opinion?
I have been made to feel guilty for giving contructive criticism but I have also had some very appreciative comments from people that wanted 'genuine' comments.
As an example, I spent several years chasing a record deal in the early - mid 90's and we would regularly travel to various gigs around the UK and Europe. It was very hard work and we did our fair share of crappy shows to a handful of people with no interest in us what-so-ever, when our friends would regularly play to full clubs in our home town every week.
So why did we stick at it?
Because every so often we'd get a complete stranger come up to us and say, 'I really enjoyed that, thanks'. To me, that meant much more than having the same friends and family patting me on the back every week...and, because we pushed ourselves, we got to play some great shows and tell some great stories about A&R guys and VIP areas.
So don't feel that you need to qualify to have an opinion. Your opinion is just as vaild as anyone else's and if the thread starter can't take criticism then they'll suffer in the long-term. I'm not very good at character animation but I know whether someone else is and will gladly point out faults so that they can improve. If they would rather make excuses then so be it.
Perhaps you can't offer a solution but everyone can offer critique.


Definitely! Just like Proton and I suggested! A common say, a simple POV.

Cause see you make an artwork that you think its nice. Its outdone you. Now usually the ones that know you, their judgement is compromised by that close relation. Now we need non-physical, or even complete strangers as you say, to just come out and say WHATEVER that artwork has caused them to feel or think! A reaction! A simple response! You dont need to be qualified in order to do that!

As zardoz says, whats good its good for one, and whats bad its bad for one. Simple! Nothing to it. Why! If we HAD to be qualified in order to express what we feel about something, then ALL of us, MUST be qualified in ALL profession!

But IMI pointed out something quite interesting! I kinda felt like, there wasnt anything to gain for the replier in a post. In order to reply there wasnt anything to gain from it, cause surely I too have seen trouble when people got criticized! Some didnt new to take it.

Perhaps we oughta make some sort of star status for each person to cover the reward per critique thing! Lets say someone criticizes another, he gets an evaluation for that critique from the author who gets the critique, and that fills in the star, of lets say 5 of them right below our names!

And the stars show statue in here. You see someone with 5 stars, you know he makes good POV's, and Balanced critiques, otherwise, ordinarily, he wouldnt have gotten that far with the cross evaluation of the critique itself!

What Im getting at, is that we need some sort of positive stimulation, to get it rolling again. The above is just one idea about that stimulation. That would make the galleries a specials place, since only there could one obtain these stars.

What do you guys think? I know its easy to just get out there and make a POV! But hey, I havent critiqued or told them how good their art is for a long while aswell. Perhaps we need something like that to get us started at least!

DiedonD
10-30-2008, 12:12 AM
Was it something I said?

zardoz
10-30-2008, 03:43 AM
I think that your idea of rating the critiques with a star is a good one. Really.

Matt
10-30-2008, 05:41 AM
This might have been said, but I'm too lazy too read up! ;)

The other reason people don't post critiques is because the work might not stir enough emotion in them to warrant a decent post, I know I've felt this way on many WIP / Gallery posts. Looked at some and gone "meh".

Or, just can't think of anything to say that might help.

Mrjack
10-30-2008, 09:09 AM
Personally i reply but i have only one problem; MY BAAAAD and Poor english :(

geothefaust
10-30-2008, 08:48 PM
Hey Mrjack,

No worries. Not everyone can speak English "Prim and Proper". Not even native speakers, heh. :)

Diedond, I love your idea of rating critiques! I've seen this kind of thing on computer hardware forums, paper model forums, etc.. Where if your post is helpful, people can rate you on it. Now that would be awesome for the NT forums. If your post is helpful, people can rate it. Then we can have a meter under or near our post counts showing how helpful each person's posts have truly been, based on what the people in the community think.

Anyway, I like the idea. Now someone only needs to communicate with NT to get the ball rolling, assuming they would want to implement something such as this.

DiedonD
10-31-2008, 05:04 AM
Right with the idea given by me the, I suppose I should be the one contacting them.

Alright then. Here goes. Fingers crossed!

adrian
10-31-2008, 10:20 AM
I find it easier to offer critique if someone is specific about what they are looking for feedback on, which is why when I look for critiques I make it clear I'm looking for feedback on the lighting or texturing or whatever.

Like others here I won't generally put in a "wow that's the best thing in the history of 3d graphics" comment for the sake of it. Sometimes I will if the image strikes a chord with me but most often not.

Re: the star idea - good in one way but bad in another for the reasons mentioned above. If you want feedback on a specific thing then an overall star rating isn't going to help much.

JGary
10-31-2008, 10:53 AM
When posting in the Zbrush Central forum, I always receive much more critique than in the Newtek forum. I'm sure part of it is a very large user base with lots of great artists. However, I also think the poor design of Newteks gallery limits activity. Zbrush Central is one of the nicest galleries that I have used and there are lot of great user friendly features Newtek could steal from that site.

1. Ability to view a threads images collectively on one page...no digging through a 20 page thread for images!
2. New gallery submission thumbnails that show up at the top of forum page
3. Selected works gallery, with recent additions showing up on top of the forum page

And just in case you have been living under a rock and haven't look at the incredible work on the Zbrush forum:

www.zbrushcentral.com

jasonwestmas
10-31-2008, 11:08 AM
If I like something about something then I will find what I don't like about something else related to that thing I like. When I find that thing that I don't like then I tell the person how to make that thing better so that it makes the thing I do like even better because the entire piece has therefore become more balanced. If someone tells me not to say anything then I won't.

shrox
10-31-2008, 11:44 AM
I don't like the idea of a rating system, that's what awards and contests are for.

geothefaust
10-31-2008, 02:29 PM
Contests show your ability to do something in an activity, awards are recognition for that ability. Rating system would be for how helpful a post or posts are. Both are obviously two very different things.

THREEL
10-31-2008, 02:54 PM
I'm too lazy to read all of these, too. Actually, I think I have a problem with tracking. So, I tend to read a few lines and then start skipping down. It probably has something to do with ADD.

I don't know if anyone has mention this, but some people might be afraid to critique, because of banishment from the forum. Do you remember a certain critiquer (Is that even a word?) that seemed to be an expert in his field (at least he thought he was a legend in his own mind). His "screen" name started with an O. He seemed to critique almost everything that everyone posted on the forum. The only problem, his critiques were usually mean spirited and hardly ever constructive.

The other thing with me is an artist should have the right to make their "art" the way they see it. People see and reproduce things differently. Some can literally reproduce things while others take the "Picasso" approach to art. I have a son that takes the "Picasso" route.

tHREEL, but you can call me AL

jasonwestmas
10-31-2008, 03:27 PM
You have to do A LOT of unacceptable behavior to get banned from here let alone permanently banned. That is not to say NT doesn't warn people frequently.

Dexter2999
10-31-2008, 03:30 PM
The other thing with me is an artist should have the right to make their "art" the way they see it. People see and reproduce things differently. Some can literally reproduce things while others take the "Picasso" approach to art. I have a son that takes the "Picasso" route.

tHREEL, but you can call me AL

My problem with the "Picassso approach" is that many who use modern techniques have not mastered traditional and fundamental techniques. If you were to look at the early work of Picasso you would see had mastered those techniques at a very early age. His later work was a move to "go beyond" established methods.

A four year old can slosh paint on a canvas, it doesn't make him Jackson Pollock. I can arrange geometrics and swirl some colors but it doesn't make me Kandinski.

I am all for some leeway on stylized items. Someone referred to Oddity before. I remember he was relentless on anatomy. But a character that isn't meant to look photoreal should have a little "wiggle room" where the rules are concerned.

I guess to me the level of my critique has a scale proportionate with how realistic the work is trying to be. If you are going cartoony or stylized, there isn't much I feel like I can input, it is their style. All I can say is if I like it or not, there isn't a measure against reality at that point.

When someone goes for photoreal, then I feel more inclined to point out inconsistancies in texture, scale, structural viability...in other words compare it to the real world.

Dexter2999
10-31-2008, 03:56 PM
I just remebered an incident that caused me to stop giving critiques for a while.
On another forum an unnamed artist posted a picture that was good.

I made some comments about how the composition didn't accentuate things to the best. I also mentioned that they should add some motion blur to certain elements and change the color of one item because it brough the eye to the wrong part of the image. I did a photoshop version to illustrate my points and sent it to the artist in a PM. What I got was a reply of "I'll take it into consideration."
He redid the image ALMOST IDENTICAL to the photoshoped image I had sent him (less motion blur). No credit. No thanks.

Put me off for a while.

virtualcomposer
10-31-2008, 04:02 PM
I've noticed, for the most part, people are really open to criticism in this forum and the animation world. I for one want criticism because I want to better myself and there are so many things that look good to us, mainly because we're so used to looking at it, that a fresh look is necessary to create good work. I remember when I created my earth picture, I had a lot of good points but quite a bit of room for improvement. Like Dexter2999 said though, some people kind of make it hard to want to critique things. Most on this forum, I've noticed, are really good about listening to other fellow animators. It really is the only way to become a pro. We should all be open to listen and learn.

jasonwestmas
10-31-2008, 05:48 PM
I've noticed, for the most part, people are really open to criticism in this forum and the animation world. I for one want criticism because I want to better myself and there are so many things that look good to us, mainly because we're so used to looking at it, that a fresh look is necessary to create good work. I remember when I created my earth picture, I had a lot of good points but quite a bit of room for improvement. Like Dexter2999 said though, some people kind of make it hard to want to critique things. Most on this forum, I've noticed, are really good about listening to other fellow animators. It really is the only way to become a pro. We should all be open to listen and learn.

Here! Here!:thumbsup:

zardoz
10-31-2008, 06:25 PM
when you accept criticism (the constructive type) you take your renders beyond what you can do. What I mean is this: I did a picture with a shark...and for me that was really good and it couldn't be improved 8how far I was from the truth) and I posted it in cgtalk. People there said it was ok but I could do a lot better. So they said some stuff that I could change. And I did, I listened to them and my render in the end was so much better. And they even gave me front page for that...mostly for listening what other people said.
So, sometimes you think what you did is really good, and then, other people that never saw that work, can bring new, fresh ideas.

About 'art'...well, this is one of those discussions that IMHO takes us nowhere. What is art is relative to each person, so it's hard to comment on something based on the 'artistic' side of it. What I think is art others may think its crap.
And when someone makes a render of some car, or some airplane, or like me, mostly animals...are we creating art? Would you put one of your car renders in a museum? or one of my sharks?...

jasonwestmas
10-31-2008, 07:29 PM
when you accept criticism (the constructive type) you take your renders beyond what you can do. What I mean is this: I did a picture with a shark...and for me that was really good and it couldn't be improved 8how far I was from the truth) and I posted it in cgtalk. People there said it was ok but I could do a lot better. So they said some stuff that I could change. And I did, I listened to them and my render in the end was so much better. And they even gave me front page for that...mostly for listening what other people said.
So, sometimes you think what you did is really good, and then, other people that never saw that work, can bring new, fresh ideas.

About 'art'...well, this is one of those discussions that IMHO takes us nowhere. What is art is relative to each person, so it's hard to comment on something based on the 'artistic' side of it. What I think is art others may think its crap.
And when someone makes a render of some car, or some airplane, or like me, mostly animals...are we creating art? Would you put one of your car renders in a museum? or one of my sharks?...


You're lucky then to have people help you out like that. :)

DiedonD
11-01-2008, 07:42 AM
G'Day everyone :)

@adrian


I find it easier to offer critique if someone is specific about what they are looking for feedback on, which is why when I look for critiques I make it clear I'm looking for feedback on the lighting or texturing or whatever.
Like others here I won't generally put in a "wow that's the best thing in the history of 3d graphics" comment for the sake of it. Sometimes I will if the image strikes a chord with me but most often not.
Re: the star idea - good in one way but bad in another for the reasons mentioned above. If you want feedback on a specific thing then an overall star rating isn't going to help much.


Cool! Specific or general, anything is better then nothing really!

@JGary


When posting in the Zbrush Central forum, I always receive much more critique than in the Newtek forum. I'm sure part of it is a very large user base with lots of great artists. However, I also think the poor design of Newteks gallery limits activity. Zbrush Central is one of the nicest galleries that I have used and there are lot of great user friendly features Newtek could steal from that site.
1. Ability to view a threads images collectively on one page...no digging through a 20 page thread for images!
2. New gallery submission thumbnails that show up at the top of forum page
3. Selected works gallery, with recent additions showing up on top of the forum page
And just in case you have been living under a rock and haven't look at the incredible work on the Zbrush forum:
www.zbrushcentral.com


I contacted NT immediately after I said that I would. And currently we (at the forum, I dont know if NT is evaluating it or not!) are evaluating the star system as means at boosting one's ordinary reaction in giving an opinion after a given image.

They havent replied to me yet on that simple single star system seen in many other forums, a request from us for the galleries for that purpose mentioend above. I think if they see what YOUR implying for, they might get a heart attack LOL!

@jasonwestmas


...If someone tells me not to say anything then I won't.


I find the implification rather strange! Did it happen to you before, that someone put his art in the galleries and immediately said: "GUYS I KNOW ITS GOOD, I DONT NEED YOUR REACTION TO IT, SO DONT SAY ANYTHING, OK?!"

Cause I really wouldnt be able to understand such a person! I mean why did he put it in the galleries anyway! Its like going out to find a date, and not wanting anyone at the party?!

Unless your talking about v9.5 Images and Anims Only?

http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80543

Thats not in the galleries though. And yeah, its not open for discussion! I think they just want the images there for adv purposes maybe, I dont know :stumped:

@shrox

I don't like the idea of a rating system, that's what awards and contests are for.

Yes, just like Javis says. We are looking into, some sort of a statue reward for people to have something to gain after theyve reacted expressively after looking at aye image. Something to get us going, for starters at least.

@Al


I'm too lazy to read all of these, too. Actually, I think I have a problem with tracking. So, I tend to read a few lines and then start skipping down. It probably has something to do with ADD.
I don't know if anyone has mention this, but some people might be afraid to critique, because of banishment from the forum. Do you remember a certain critiquer (Is that even a word?) that seemed to be an expert in his field (at least he thought he was a legend in his own mind). His "screen" name started with an O. He seemed to critique almost everything that everyone posted on the forum. The only problem, his critiques were usually mean spirited and hardly ever constructive.
The other thing with me is an artist should have the right to make their "art" the way they see it. People see and reproduce things differently. Some can literally reproduce things while others take the "Picasso" approach to art. I have a son that takes the "Picasso" route.
tHREEL, but you can call me AL


Hey Al. Let me calm your banishment fears by telling you from my own experience that they most probably warn you before they ban you man. So dont worry. You'll know that youve crossed the line by a sent e-mail. Youll get the idea, and would stop believe me. Otherwise, off with your head!! LOL

To be honest I wasnt warned at all! But I know they warn you cause I had a warning later on on something else, so...

Oddy got warned. NT openly declared that he got warned several times. He had to go out IMHO. He even told us that we here are just game characters, something to make fun of, cause it helped him doing that. Thus he couldnt stop. It was a waste loosing him, but NT knows darn well that all LW users are equal.

And no matter what one's perception of art is, any image that we do, probably would cause some reaction. Now, if we could just go ahead and say it out laud somehow :) .

@Dexter


I just remebered an incident that caused me to stop giving critiques for a while.
On another forum an unnamed artist posted a picture that was good.
I made some comments about how the composition didn't accentuate things to the best. I also mentioned that they should add some motion blur to certain elements and change the color of one item because it brough the eye to the wrong part of the image. I did a photoshop version to illustrate my points and sent it to the artist in a PM. What I got was a reply of "I'll take it into consideration."
He redid the image ALMOST IDENTICAL to the photoshoped image I had sent him (less motion blur). No credit. No thanks.
Put me off for a while.


Im sorry to hear that really. It seems youve went a long way to proove your point, only for the guy to take advantage of the secrecy in a PM and showing your ideas as himselfs! And your asking 'to what gain'!?

Well I think thats what we are working on here. The reaction expressed in written oughta have a gain for the replier! Yours I would put the highest level of a star if I were he.

Who knows now, it may be exactly because of that that he didnt gave anything back to you! If thats not the case, then he oughta be a backstabing egoist as a personality! Then he probably may have done the same to others aswell!

In the star system, if one doesnt gives crossexamined rewards in them stars to people, his non gratefulness is proven in deed! The repliers star would be the same as before for all to see! Thus next time he would be filtered out from the rest who deserve those much needed reactions, and wouldnt deserve himself a critique! That oughta change his mind! Otherwise his art would starve from any reaction, and may even be punished by having 500 views and no reply at all! Lets hope nobody goes there to that!

@Virtualcomposer


I've noticed, for the most part, people are really open to criticism in this forum and the animation world. I for one want criticism because I want to better myself and there are so many things that look good to us, mainly because we're so used to looking at it, that a fresh look is necessary to create good work. I remember when I created my earth picture, I had a lot of good points but quite a bit of room for improvement. Like Dexter2999 said though, some people kind of make it hard to want to critique things. Most on this forum, I've noticed, are really good about listening to other fellow animators. It really is the only way to become a pro. We should all be open to listen and learn.


Yessss, we all do want that :) . We all do want them indeed :thumbsup:

@zardoz

when you accept criticism (the constructive type) you take your renders beyond what you can do. What I mean is this: I did a picture with a shark...and for me that was really good and it couldn't be improved 8how far I was from the truth) and I posted it in cgtalk. People there said it was ok but I could do a lot better. So they said some stuff that I could change. And I did, I listened to them and my render in the end was so much better. And they even gave me front page for that...mostly for listening what other people said.
So, sometimes you think what you did is really good, and then, other people that never saw that work, can bring new, fresh ideas.


Lets hope we get there and enjoy such a great experience like you did :thumbsup:

jasonwestmas
11-01-2008, 08:04 AM
I find the implification rather strange! Did it happen to you before, that someone put his art in the galleries and immediately said: "GUYS I KNOW ITS GOOD, I DONT NEED YOUR REACTION TO IT, SO DONT SAY ANYTHING, OK?!"

Cause I really wouldnt be able to understand such a person! I mean why did he put it in the galleries anyway! Its like going out to find a date, and not wanting anyone at the party?!

Unless your talking about v9.5 Images and Anims Only?

http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80543

Thats not in the galleries though. And yeah, its not open for discussion! I think they just want the images there for adv purposes maybe, I dont know :stumped:


The reason I said that is because I make comments even why nobody asked. If they ask me not to make comments then I won't. But you are right, that doesn't happen very often.

DiedonD
11-05-2008, 01:01 PM
Alright. They are checking it out! Lets see where this all goes :)

adamredwoods
11-05-2008, 06:15 PM
We designers live and die through criticism, so I try to give it in a very constructive sense. But there's so much to write about on this forum, it's difficult to make it a priority.

THREEL
11-05-2008, 09:40 PM
My problem with the "Picassso approach" is that many who use modern techniques have not mastered traditional and fundamental techniques. If you were to look at the early work of Picasso you would see had mastered those techniques at a very early age. His later work was a move to "go beyond" established methods.

A four year old can slosh paint on a canvas, it doesn't make him Jackson Pollock. I can arrange geometrics and swirl some colors but it doesn't make me Kandinski.

Actually, my son is 8. :) But, really... I think the "Picasso approach" is literally how he sees things in his own mine right now. In an abstract manner, if you will. Now as for me, I have what I consider a great imagination, but I see objects more as they are, or at least I think I do... :D I just wish I could route these images from my head to my finger tips. I believe I'm getting there, but there is always room to learn more. I don't know about any of you, but one of my problems is, I'm my own worst critic. That's why it's another good reason to hang out in forums like this... to get other perspectives of how something might, or should look.

DiedonD
11-06-2008, 01:01 AM
We designers live and die through criticism, so I try to give it in a very constructive sense. But there's so much to write about on this forum, it's difficult to make it a priority.

Yeah I agree. Especially in the General Discussions where I imagine as if its a real gathering, and we're just chatting away :)

Well, if all goes fine, the galleries would be different and a more special place. I just hope that it works out with the Star System ratings per critique ordeal. If it could only make it more exciting and pleasurable to everyone, I think we would get it going in the galleries just as much as in the General Discussions hopefully :thumbsup:

@Al


I don't know about any of you, but one of my problems is, I'm my own worst critic. That's why it's another good reason to hang out in forums like this... to get other perspectives of how something might, or should look.

Ohhh, so your at the other side now are you :) . Youve got plenty of critique going on, you need a different POV if someone might have, or an applause to balance the heavy critique coming from yourself maybe :) .

Im not that much of a self critique. To the contrary, Im largely dependent on the other ones view. Three times I have put things at the galleries throughout my time in here. And for those three times, I didnt get it enough. Thats what this is all about. Im trying to make it better for the next newcomer.

starbase1
11-06-2008, 05:38 AM
I steer clear of objects / subjects I don't feel I know about, but make an effort to give feedback where I do.

I also try and find something nice to say about any image, which is normally not difficult.

It's a problem on many forums, but this is worse than some - I seem to get much more feedback over at Foundation 3d, but I suspect that is largely because there is a core of people with a strong interest in space topics there.

Rating rarely do much good in my experience, because people are reluctant to give low ones. I was hoping for feedback on what went down well with non techies when I stsrted putting pics up on Renderosity, but it is hopeless - people there think it is rude to give less than 5*, so you end up weighing responses rather than learning anything. And the number you get seems dominated by the subhject matter rather than image quality.

I find these forums the best for getting technical advise and tools though, by a considerable margin. The number of gurus willing to offer advice on getting the best from tools is superb.

I think there is a key to getting more feedback here though, and that comes down to making it clear in the title what the subject matter is.

That way you will attract the attention of the people who are interested, and best placed to give you feedback, (and they may be less technically proficient, but have a better knowledge of teh subject matter).

I also think it helps to get a first image up that works as a thumbnail. And let people know the level of realism you are going for or your level of experience. I feel more comfortable advising someone who has said they are a beginner, I feeel they won't be offended if I point out something basic. Whereas saying to an industtry pro "Do you know about tripling polygons?" may not go down so well!

Ask people specifically for comment on areas you are unsure of, that helps deflect silence out of politeness.

Nick

Iain
11-06-2008, 05:56 AM
The ratings would be useful and this board could be improved but it's important to remember that CGTalk is what CGSociety is all about.
Newtek probably aren't as concerned about feedback and improvement as this forum is just a service they provide for their users.

I think critique is essential, regardless of the artists' ability.
I often post a render that I consider 'done' even though I know it could be improved.
Then if someone makes a good suggestion, it spurs me on to revisit the render when I have time.

The suggestion could come from anyone-if I agree with it that's all that's important. Fresh eyes see things you just get used to and ignore.

starbase1
11-06-2008, 06:21 AM
I often post a render that I consider 'done' even though I know it could be improved.
Then if someone makes a good suggestion, it spurs me on to revisit the render when I have time.


Yes, I think we have to accept that 'done' or 'completed' in practice have to mean 'I don't want to do any more to it right now'.

If someone comes up with a simple effective change to improve it, it would be perverse to say 'But it was finished!'. Or a suggestion may be useful for future work.

(In forums where they get more pushy about this, I sometimes cheat by moving the camera as well as improving and saying, "and here's another finished render!")

Nick

DiedonD
11-06-2008, 09:05 AM
...Rating rarely do much good in my experience, because people are reluctant to give low ones. I was hoping for feedback on what went down well with non techies when I stsrted putting pics up on Renderosity, but it is hopeless - people there think it is rude to give less than 5*, so you end up weighing responses rather than learning anything. And the number you get seems dominated by the subhject matter rather than image quality....

I think that having the luxury to decide weather to give a low evaluation or a higher one, after one has been rewarded with a response, is something to be dealt with on the next step in the future.

It sounds like dealing with the problems of the oil in the burning pot first, while the fish has not yet been captured yet and is still in the sea!

Its a good point though. But I think we should stress that one, after one atually starts getting more critique or a response in the first place.

@Iain


The ratings would be useful and this board could be improved but it's important to remember that CGTalk is what CGSociety is all about.
Newtek probably aren't as concerned about feedback and improvement as this forum is just a service they provide for their users.

I think critique is essential, regardless of the artists' ability.
I often post a render that I consider 'done' even though I know it could be improved.
Then if someone makes a good suggestion, it spurs me on to revisit the render when I have time.

The suggestion could come from anyone-if I agree with it that's all that's important. Fresh eyes see things you just get used to and ignore.


Dont say! You think they dont care about the crucial step of feedback! I hope thats not true. Otherwise would also explain the present low flow at the Galleries though.

But we are artists, and artists need feedback! Thats how it works! I think they should cinsider it as they are doing it now!

@Nick again

Yes, I think we have to accept that 'done' or 'completed' in practice have to mean 'I don't want to do any more to it right now'.

If someone comes up with a simple effective change to improve it, it would be perverse to say 'But it was finished!'. Or a suggestion may be useful for future work.


It all depends on the artwork really. Sometimes you just dont want to have to do anything with it. Thed up with it really. And only care about the response from 'tadaaa wht do you think?'