PDA

View Full Version : Autodesk buys Softimage!



robertoortiz
10-23-2008, 03:15 PM
Autodesk Signs Agreement with Avid Technology to Acquire Softimage
Acquisition to Accelerate Autodesk’s Games Strategy; Complements Digital Entertainment and Visual Communications Offering; Lets Artists Choose their Passion


SAN RAFAEL, Calif., Oct. 23, 2008 — Autodesk, Inc. (NASDAQ: ADSK) and Avid Technology, Inc. (NASDAQ: AVID), announced that they have signed a definitive agreement for Autodesk to acquire substantially all of the assets of Avid’s Softimage business unit for approximately $35 million.

Softimage was founded in 1986 by Daniel Langlois and is headquartered in Montreal, Canada. Softimage develops 3D technology for the film, television and games markets. Its flagship product is SOFTIMAGE|XSI, an extensible 3D animation software solution used by leading media and entertainment companies, including Digital Domain, Ubisoft, SEGA Corporation, CAPCOM, Animal Logic and The Mill. Autodesk Media & Entertainment provides animation, visual effects, editing/finishing and color grading solutions for the 3D market, including entertainment and design industries.

“Softimage has been developing state-of-the-art 3D technology for more than 20 years, and its products are recognized as best-of-breed in the entertainment industry,” said Marc Petit, senior vice president, Autodesk Media & Entertainment. “Upon the completion of this acquisition we will be adding Softimage technology and products to our portfolio, and welcoming one of the most talented teams in the industry to Autodesk Media & Entertainment. Both will help us accelerate the work of our Games Technology Group, as we build the next-generation of real-time, interactive 3D authoring tools for games, film and television.”

Gary Greenfield, CEO and chairman of Avid Technology, added: “We are excited about what this transaction means for customers of Softimage. The Softimage 3D product line has performed well in the video games market, a sector where Autodesk has a track record of success. Autodesk will provide a great home for the business.”

Softimage Product Integration
Upon completion of the acquisition, Autodesk intends to continue developing and selling Softimage’s core product line, while integrating certain Softimage technology into future versions of Autodesk solutions and products. Autodesk plans to acquire and continue developing the following Softimage products:
• SOFTIMAGE|XSI: Including XSI Essentials, XSI Advanced, XSI Academic, XSI Mod Tool and the XSI software development kit. XSI is production-proven 3D animation software for games, film and television. It offers a complete 3D modeling, animation, rendering and development environment for visual effects and custom tools.
• SOFTIMAGE|Face Robot: A complete software solution for easily rigging and animating 3D faces. Face Robot enables studios to create life-like facial animation at incredible speeds.
• SOFTIMAGE|Cat: This advanced character animation system is a plug-in for Autodesk 3ds Max software. It is intended to be integrated into the 3ds Max product line.
• SOFTIMAGE|Crosswalk: This interoperability solution is intended to be integrated with Autodesk’s own interoperability technology.

Petit commented: “As we have demonstrated since the acquisition of Alias in 2006, we’re committed to giving our customers choice when it comes to their 3D tools. We plan to maintain and grow the Softimage product line, and through Autodesk FBX provide better interoperability between Softimage products, 3ds Max and Autodesk Maya. FBX also provides interoperability between Softimage products and our specialized applications such as Autodesk Mudbox, Autodesk MotionBuilder, Autodesk ImageModeler and Autodesk Stitcher, as well as numerous third-party applications.”

Petit concluded: “At Autodesk, we care deeply about 3D technology; we know users invest a lot of time and energy into mastering their favorite 3D product. To all 3D artists out there, I want to tell you that we understand your passion for the creative tools you use daily, and that with Autodesk, you can choose your passion.”

For further information please visit www.autodesk.com/softimage.

Safe Harbor Statement
This press release contains forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties, including statements regarding product offerings and the performance of its business. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially include the following: difficulties encountered in closing and integrating Softimage’s business; whether certain market segments grow as anticipated; the competitive environment in the software industry and competitive responses to the acquisition; and whether the companies can successfully develop new products or modify existing products and the degree to which these gain market acceptance.

Further information on potential factors that could affect the financial results of Autodesk are included in the company's annual report on Form 10-K for the year ended January 31, 2008, and Form 10-Q for the quarter ended July 31, 2008, which are on file with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

About Softimage
Softimage is a part of Avid Technology, Inc., and develops leading-edge 3D technology used in customer-centric solutions that enable professionals in the games, film and television industry to realize their creative vision. Award-winning feature films, television productions and top-selling video games are made using Softimage software. Its flagship product, SOFTIMAGE|XSI, is an extensible 3D animation software solution built on the most modern architecture in the industry and is used by leading media and entertainment companies such as Digital Domain, Ubisoft, SEGA Corporation, CAPCOM, Animal Logic, and The Mill. Other solutions from Softimage include: SOFTIMAGE|FACE ROBOT, lifelike facial animation software; SOFTIMAGE|CAT, a complete character animation plug-in; and SOFTIMAGE Alienbrain, a digital asset management solution for artists. www.softimage.com.

About Avid Technology
Avid is a worldwide leader in tools for film, video, audio, 3D animation, gaming and broadcast professionals – as well as for home audio and video enthusiasts. Avid professional and consumer brands include Avid, Digidesign, M-Audio, Pinnacle Systems, Sibelius, Softimage and Sundance Digital. The vast majority of primetime television shows, feature films, commercials and chart-topping music hits are made using one or more Avid products. Whether used by seasoned professionals or beginning students, Avid’s products and services enable customers to work more efficiently, productively and creatively. Avid received an Oscar statuette representing the 1998 Scientific and Technical Award for the concept, design, and engineering of the Avid Film Composer system for motion picture editing.

About Autodesk
Autodesk, Inc. is the world leader in 2D and 3D design software for the manufacturing, building and construction, and media and entertainment markets. Since its introduction of AutoCAD software in 1982, Autodesk has developed the broadest portfolio of state-of-the-art digital prototyping solutions to help customers experience their ideas before they are real. Fortune 1000 companies rely on Autodesk for the tools to visualize, simulate and analyze real-world performance early in the design process to save time and money, enhance quality and foster innovation. For additional information about Autodesk, visit www.autodesk.com.
http://www.autodesk.com/softimage

geothefaust
10-23-2008, 03:24 PM
Man, what a crock of ****. Seriously. I can't believe Avid sold XSI to them. I WAS considering purchasing XSI7, but I definitely will not now. Especially after reading that autodesk will be laying off the support staff (which, by the way, they rule and are very nice). What a huge, ****ing mistake.

/endrant

PS- BS.

JeffrySG
10-23-2008, 03:30 PM
WTF!!!!

I really thought this was a joke thread.... I'm still in too much shock to actually read the entire post....

geothefaust
10-23-2008, 03:34 PM
Yeah man. I don't believe it. It's actually truly shocking, and it's hard to shock me.

I mean, Avid had it going pretty damn well with XSI. Like my friend just said (whom uses XSI), the CEO & board members at Avid are just a bunch of capitalist dogs. OK, I added the dogs part. :D

In summary: WTF!!!!

CMT
10-23-2008, 03:35 PM
Holy s#!t!

So much for competition, eh?

Nicolas Jordan
10-23-2008, 03:39 PM
All 3 major 3d software apps under one roof? That's just crazy! Only ones left on thier own are Lightwave, Modo and Cinema 4D now.

hazmat777
10-23-2008, 03:44 PM
Adobe is gonna be around the corner any second picking up somebody.:cursin:

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 03:47 PM
Does this mean they are going after the smaller companies now to create a monopoly? Newtek is allot more then LW it's Tricaster and other stuff so at least all the eggs are not in the same basket.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 03:49 PM
WTF?!?!

jin

jin choung
10-23-2008, 03:49 PM
they can't touch newtek unless newtek sells willingly... newtek privately owned....

jin

jin choung
10-23-2008, 03:51 PM
i'd much rather have adobe buy autodesk than the other way around.... if it ever comes down to a choice between evils....

jin

geothefaust
10-23-2008, 03:51 PM
What happened was, that Avid put it up for sale. So I don't think it can be construed as a monopoly. ...Yet, that is. Now if they start actively pursuing small companies, NT, Maxon, Lux, etc., then users such as ourselfs are up a **** creek with no paddle.

Adobe LightWaveX anyone? :bangwall:

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 03:53 PM
they can't touch newtek unless newtek sells willingly... newtek privately owned....

jin

8~ (sigh of relief) I guess that means the other companies sold out or weren't selling enough product to stay in business so they merged. I'm not sure really.

Bog
10-23-2008, 04:10 PM
Oh balls. *pinches bridge of nose* Give it a few years, and it'll be Autodesk films made with Autodesk animators with Autodesk products. And if you don't have your Autodesk Degree ($35,000 for the Personal Learning Edition, $250,000 for the Producer's Degree) then y'ain't workin' in this town.

Okay, that's very pessimistic, and I don't think it's going to get *that* bad, but I'm not pleased about this.

Stooch
10-23-2008, 04:13 PM
lol well us LW users have nothing to worry about.

im not surprised personally, i was wondering when not if.

Iaian7
10-23-2008, 04:16 PM
Just got this announcement in an email. Weird. Very weird... and bad, generally. This is Adobe + Macromedia all over again. Competition, even if it was a rather small percentage of users, seemed to keep Adobe on their toes. Now we have bloated, buggy, high-priced apps with little chance for reprieve (excluding CS4, which I haven't attempted to use yet, probably because it comes at a premium price from a company I simply no longer trust to make rock-solid apps).

So long as Newtek's Lightwave is the champion to keep Autodesk on their toes... I guess this news is perfectly fine! :D Long live the :newtek:

dballesg
10-23-2008, 04:17 PM
Bad news indeed.

At least I am glad we didn't incorporated XSI on our pipeline. I hate Autodesk business model.

I think it is the right moment for Newtek to start showing a killer Lightwave X.

And Newtek, please keep yourselves as a private company! :)

David

GregMalick
10-23-2008, 04:19 PM
I wonder if that huge price increase XSI had for v7 was somehow involved.

Maybe the price increase was in anticipation of this buyout or meant to increase apparent value.

Or maybe Softimage was trying to make up for the development costs of ICE and the increase resulted in crushed sales and the company had to be sold off.


And I wonder if Vue is next?

Lightwolf
10-23-2008, 04:21 PM
Or maybe Softimage was trying to make up for the development costs of ICE and the increase resulted in crushed sales and the company had to be sold off.
Or maybe Avid has been loosing so much customers to Apple that it needs a bit of financial relief, concentrating on the core product range.

Bad news though, imho.

Cheers,
Mike

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 04:24 PM
I've never liked Avid anyway. To much hype and so little quality. Final Cut Pro ran rings around Avid and gave you more plugins and ease of use. As long as Newtek and Apple stay in business, I'm a happy camper. If not, I'm moving to the mountains and study archeology.

Andyjaggy
10-23-2008, 04:27 PM
Oh that's just sad.

Tonttu
10-23-2008, 04:30 PM
Wigga pleeze!

Matt
10-23-2008, 04:30 PM
I think it is the right moment for Newtek to start showing a killer Lightwave X.

And Newtek, please keep yourselves as a private company! :)

David

Totally agree, NewTek could use this to their advantage if LightWave 10 is all it's cracked up to be.

geothefaust
10-23-2008, 04:33 PM
Totally agree, NewTek could use this to their advantage if LightWave 10 is all it's cracked up to be.

Agreed. NT will hopefully capitalize on this mess and come out on top.

More customers = More $ = More programmers = Better stable program with more features!

Bog
10-23-2008, 04:53 PM
Once again, just to reiterate, I don't mind paying more for LightWave. It's incredible value for what it does, and if it's CA tools and dynamics rivalled XSI and Maya's, then I'd cheerfully pay for that privilege.

Whatever it takes, guys.

wacom
10-23-2008, 05:03 PM
Well, now I'm faced with selling off my XSI ess license (with 2 years maintenance) and pickup up C4D and focusing back on LW.

Don't get me wrong it IS and amazing program and the support staff were/are awesome. That however is today...tomorrow Autodesk starts ruling over softimage and marks the long, slow decline into what we all know is craptastic development cycles.

At first I felt betrayed, then I felt like and idiot for feeling betrayed, now I just loath Avid share holders. Makes perfect sense right- sell the only profitable part of the company and put those earnings back into a loosing gamble in the form of Avid.

They should have allowed a company stock option or something for the employees to have first say in shares- then they could have formed their own company. Now 90% of the staff is down the tubes...

Have a nice day and expect to see a lot more of me on these boards in the future.

There is no way Autodesk could buy Adobe- Adobe dwarfs autodesk by many times.

Well looks like I'll be investing in LW 10!

dballesg
10-23-2008, 05:27 PM
Welcome back wacom! :)

I was reading on the SoftImage forums, and users are quite depress, in fact a few wrote messages like on the verge of suicide! :(

But someone posted there about the number of programmers that left Alias when was acquired by Autodesk to go to Softimage. And he was speculating it could happen again.

Maybe it is time for Jay, Chuck and the others to start opening the doors of the 3D development guild and welcome them! ;)

David

hrgiger
10-23-2008, 05:35 PM
Makes me glad I only paid $175 for XSI. Somehow, I feel it just lost value.

SaturnX
10-23-2008, 05:36 PM
I thought this was a joke thread to. lol Cant wait for it to be old news tomorrow. Its a brutal deal.

Who knows where this will lead...
The world's going mad.

IMI
10-23-2008, 05:44 PM
Makes me glad I only paid $175 for XSI. Somehow, I feel it just lost value.

Only $175? How'd you manage that? Is it an educational version or did you buy someone's license?

Wow, though... just...wow. They're like, the Taco Bell of the 3D world. ;)

Now I guess it'll be Autodesk XSI 2009.
Speaking of which, I find it hilarious that you can browse products by alphabetical order at the Autodesk site. It's completely useless, because every damn product begins with Autodesk in its name. ;)

tyrot
10-23-2008, 05:48 PM
dear NT

stay cool ok... we are here ..you better be ..as well..


Best

Matt
10-23-2008, 05:53 PM
Interestingly, I've just been to Softimage's forum and read through the threads about this, no one mentions LightWave as an alternative to escaping Autodesk.

But they mention C4D, Modo and Blender.

NewTek marketing need to correct this ASAP.

Netvudu
10-23-2008, 05:57 PM
aaaand there it goes for XSI...here comes the terrible development cycles and ridiculous updates. It´s a bye bye for Softimage out of the industry...
I work with LW and Houdini, which makes me what...some kind of prophet? ;D

Titus
10-23-2008, 05:59 PM
Interestingly, I've just been to Softimage's forum and read through the threads about this, no one mentions LightWave as an alternative to escaping Autodesk.

But they mention C4D, Modo and Blender.

NewTek marketing need to correct this ASAP.

Yup, many online friends mention only Houdini and C4D as an alternative, NT is below the radar.

hrgiger
10-23-2008, 06:05 PM
Interestingly, I've just been to Softimage's forum and read through the threads about this, no one mentions LightWave as an alternative to escaping Autodesk.

But they mention C4D, Modo and Blender.

NewTek marketing need to correct this ASAP.

There were a few mentions and even those got a scoff or two. One guy said he didn't even know that Lightwave was still around. Newtek marketing, wake up call.
I think Newtek should offer a competitive buy in price for XSI users who dont' want to be owned by Autodesk.

Netvudu
10-23-2008, 06:16 PM
Dunno...maybe this heads down politics are keeping Newtek safe from Autodesk-like sharks :p

Matt
10-23-2008, 06:18 PM
I think Newtek should offer a competitive buy in price for XSI users who dont' want to be owned by Autodesk.

If NewTek can afford it, that's a pretty good idea!

hrgiger
10-23-2008, 07:02 PM
If NewTek can afford it, that's a pretty good idea!

They can always afford to increase their market share. Question is in a lot of cases like this, can they afford not to?

wacom
10-23-2008, 07:04 PM
Apparently adobe and other companies were allowed to bid on it. They knew about this since siggraph!!! WTF!

It was a steel at 35 million but what do I know. In the end AD owns my XSI dollars and for that I feel horrible.

It's true in the thread LW doesn't even get much mention. Too bad. I'd hate to see LW turn into Eclectic Image in terms of market...

Houdini master should come down a bit in price...some of the rats leaving the XSI ship WILL jump.

I'm jumping ship for sure- where I land besides LW I haven't a clue yet...

hrgiger
10-23-2008, 07:05 PM
Well, I'm just going to focus on Lightwave I think for now. I went to XSI for the character tools but Newtek has since at least added some functionality in this area. It's no XSI for sure, but there are things in the beta and 9.5 I'm pretty happy about.

Intuition
10-23-2008, 07:13 PM
I really doubt this purchase will harm anything as far as Softimage's quality. If anything it may improve XSi's own FBX import exporter. The max 2009 version is tops. Even kept multi layered modo UV textures intact.

Think about this. Avid was taking losses (Final Cut too good arg!) and was putting Softimage up for sale.

Autodesk said "ok" I bite.

Not sure if there are some monopoly laws in play here what with all the MRay apps in one house but overall you'll see three teams developing the different apps. We did not see Maya or Max merge the way everyone said but you do have some nice ideas being traded that makes both apps better. If Softimage keeps XSi's workflow and interface intact then it can only benefit from other tech that AD has around the house. Not to mention that CAT will probably be native in max instead of An "extra".

No one should jump the XSi boat. Its not going anywhere. AD is much more willing to invest money in XSi then Avid ever was.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-23-2008, 07:21 PM
There were a few mentions and even those got a scoff or two. One guy said he didn't even know that Lightwave was still around. Newtek marketing, wake up call.
I think Newtek should offer a competitive buy in price for XSI users who dont' want to be owned by Autodesk.

Great idea. 500 dollars. Call it the Autodesk Exodus Sale.

Get 9.5.1 out the door and let's everybody contribute a demo reel.

TonyEdwards
10-23-2008, 07:33 PM
Great idea. 500 dollars. Call it the Autodesk Exodus Sale.

Get 9.5.1 out the door and let's everybody contribute a demo reel.

Actually, NewTek already offers an impressive companion upgrade price for licensed users of other products at the very price you mention. I've actually been seriously thinking about it since Softimage dropped Foundation.

hrgiger
10-23-2008, 07:38 PM
Actually, NewTek already offers an impressive companion upgrade price for licensed users of other products at the very price you mention. I've actually been seriously thinking about it since Softimage dropped Foundation.

Yes, they just need to actually push it.

Bog
10-23-2008, 07:41 PM
This is actually one heck of an opportunity for NewTek.

I'm assuming Autodesk will treat XSI as they've treated Maya, which they did pretty sensibly. Though this does torpedo the talk about the Alias buyout just being to get their hands on the CAD tools - XSI always was an animator's package first, more than being CADdy.

I once bagged a whole license of Softimage for a pair of Manx kittens, oddly. It just got lost in a house-move about a decade back. Always did kinda like it, though.

I dunno. I'm a believer in free markets and stuff, so I can't have any moral objections or complain that one company shouldn't have it all (aside from the simple fact that monopolies do breed complacency), I just feel a bit sad, really. Can't say why, it's an emotional reaction not a sentient one.

AbnRanger
10-23-2008, 08:15 PM
Does this mean they are going after the smaller companies now to create a monopoly? Newtek is allot more then LW it's Tricaster and other stuff so at least all the eggs are not in the same basket.On one hand I can see why AD would want to do this, as far as making many mixed pipelines more cooperative between the programs, and also to glean some of the technology (let's face it XSI is the most modern and well thought out program of the bunch), but if they take another step in the acquisition area, they are going to have the SEC breathing down their neck...and that's no joke at all. This effectively IS a monopoly now...owning the 3 major programs in the market...talk about price fixing.

Nevertheless, I did like the little quote about CAT being integrated into Max. That is the answer to Character Studio's limitations, and it has muscles as well.
A bevy of different preset bipeds, quadruped rigs, etc. It is currently a $1k plugin. If they add that to Max without charging more for the program, that will be a huge feature boost.
http://www.softimage.com/products/cat/

adamredwoods
10-23-2008, 09:10 PM
Wow, I just heard about this.

Barrier to entry for 3D software is SOOOOO HIGH, that only M$ and Adob3 can enter now to create any type of competition.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 09:16 PM
i'm tellin' ya, blender's gonna be a contenda'....

btw,

i've been watching CNN all day and guess what? NOT A PEEP about this!

do you think it's some kind of conspiracy to keep it quiet?!

jin

Dennik
10-23-2008, 09:33 PM
i'm tellin' ya, blender's gonna be a contenda'....

btw,

i've been watching CNN all day and guess what? NOT A PEEP about this!

do you think it's some kind of conspiracy to keep it quiet?!

jin

35 mil buyout is not news. If it was in the billion range it would be news worthy.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 09:49 PM
35 mil buyout is not news. If it was in the billion range it would be news worthy.

yeah it was a joke.

it amused me to think of a character that is so self absorbed that he thinks that if it's interesting and critical to him, it must be to everybody.

jin

geothefaust
10-24-2008, 12:46 AM
Well, now I'm faced with selling off my XSI ess license (with 2 years maintenance) and pickup up C4D and focusing back on LW.

Don't get me wrong it IS and amazing program and the support staff were/are awesome. That however is today...tomorrow Autodesk starts ruling over softimage and marks the long, slow decline into what we all know is craptastic development cycles.

At first I felt betrayed, then I felt like and idiot for feeling betrayed, now I just loath Avid share holders. Makes perfect sense right- sell the only profitable part of the company and put those earnings back into a loosing gamble in the form of Avid.

They should have allowed a company stock option or something for the employees to have first say in shares- then they could have formed their own company. Now 90% of the staff is down the tubes...

Have a nice day and expect to see a lot more of me on these boards in the future.

There is no way Autodesk could buy Adobe- Adobe dwarfs autodesk by many times.

Well looks like I'll be investing in LW 10!


Glad to have you back over here man. :thumbsup:

Let's hope LW10 is a killer.

Limbus
10-24-2008, 01:47 AM
Another "untouchable" app. Now I sure hope NewTek and Luxology would hurry up with development.

Stooch
10-24-2008, 01:59 AM
Interestingly, I've just been to Softimage's forum and read through the threads about this, no one mentions LightWave as an alternative to escaping Autodesk.

But they mention C4D, Modo and Blender.

NewTek marketing need to correct this ASAP.

lol because most people over there left LW for XSI to begin with.

colkai
10-24-2008, 02:32 AM
Newtek rocks hehe....
Imagine your pain if you'd bought XSI to avoid the Autodesk domination :p

How long before XSI doubles in price I wonder? Anyone recall how they stuffed MotionBuilder users? XSI 'total complete mega' will be the only available package when I wonder. ;)

Dirk
10-24-2008, 02:47 AM
I'm wondering though - is avoiding Autodesk really an issue?

Dirk
10-24-2008, 02:57 AM
What I want to say with this is, there seem to be so many studios working here (in Germany) with 3ds Max, seems they couldn't care less.

ingo
10-24-2008, 03:23 AM
All 3 major 3d software apps under one roof? That's just crazy! Only ones left on thier own are Lightwave, Modo and Cinema 4D now.

C4D is owned by Nemetschek ( http://www.nemetschek.com/ ), so they are not on their own anymore. So when will Autodesk buy blender ?? :screwy:

cresshead
10-24-2008, 04:54 AM
cool news!...

3dsmax>with luck i'm on subs for 3dsmax so could be getting softimag cat in the next version of max due out in april/may 2010

xsi may finally get ies lighting and some measurment tools to work with arch design projects

maybe xsi mod tool will be expanded and bring in some 3dsmax tools too.

i'd guess that xsi will be stripped to 1 version> xsi advanced to be placed next to maya 2009 unlimited.

sure has given xsi users some jitters today...but better that autodesk bought them rather than some investment company with no interest in '3d'

Verlon
10-24-2008, 05:12 AM
Sad really. Autodesk owning everything can't be good.

I think the extra competition andall was good for the industry.

It is a golden opportunity for an rapidly improving Lightwave though.

-EsHrA-
10-24-2008, 05:28 AM
now lets hope NT's marketing will step up and make it work for them.


mlon

prometheus
10-24-2008, 05:48 AM
Anyone noticed that Lightwave and Houdini has almost the same logo could be nice to merge them:)
not sure if that would complement eachother or if one tool would get lesser development thou.

so what´s else out there, real flow,endorphin,vue..

Oh well..no need to merge companys just for sake, perhaps the investements
could stay focused on getting damn good program developers and having stability and listen to community.

Michael

Bog
10-24-2008, 05:52 AM
Funny how your thoughts swirl sometimes. The XSI sale is probably tied in with the US's economic woes right now, which led me to the hope that everyone at NewTek owns their own house outright.... ;)

Ivan D. Young
10-24-2008, 05:55 AM
it is time to go shopping for programmers. Luxology will!

Julez4001
10-24-2008, 06:02 AM
Modo, Messiah and LW should stop playing and merge.

biliousfrog
10-24-2008, 06:18 AM
Modo, Messiah and LW should stop playing and merge.

Absolutely! They'd all benefit and so would the 3d community that used it...but there's nothing stopping us from buying all three, it would work out cheaper than XSI 2009 - Unlimited-Ultra.

Personally, I'm concerned for the future of Newtek and Lightwave. Let's be honest, most places that use Lightwave with CA also use XSI. It's obvious why the XSI users aren't considering Lightwave an alternative, they probably already use it or moved away from it...it isn't even worth considering as an alternative. Sure, they compliment each other well but given the option of an all-in-one solution, you're not going to move from XSI to Lightwave.

There's now a bunch of people who are unhappy with this buyout and looking for alternatives. Personally, if I was in their position, I'd be looking towards Modo+Messiah. As it is, I didn't really get on with Messiah or Modo and LW does everything I need at the moment but XSI users are used to more.

I was actually considering switching to XSI earlier in the year...the price increase put me off...phew!

glebe digital
10-24-2008, 06:28 AM
Please Newtek, don't sell out!

:)

Netvudu
10-24-2008, 06:42 AM
Modo, Messiah and LW should stop playing and merge.

I don´t understand this kind of statements. Software programming ain´t a modeling operation. You´re not gonna select all three packages press a button and get one new software.
In fact, in many areas I´m sure this is de facto impossible.

Personally, I´d rather have Newtek keep on improving Lightwave and the software will sell itself.

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 07:01 AM
I would love to see Newtek grab one or two of the programmers from XSI. Especially the ones who dealt with character animation.:devil:

cresshead
10-24-2008, 07:18 AM
I would love to see Newtek grab one or two of the programmers from XSI. Especially the ones who dealt with character animation.:devil:

yeah would be cool if they could for the new intergrated lightwave 10

one app to rule them all!:agree:

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 07:25 AM
yeah would be cool if they could for the new intergrated lightwave 10


People keeps suggesting that Lightwave 10 is going to be integrated but we've heard no such revelation from Newtek. People should be prepared to be disappointed on that front.

cresshead
10-24-2008, 07:37 AM
disappointed would not be apt description...

i would be exit stage left if lightwave remained stuck as a 2 app system with a flaky 'hub' for lightwave 10 and would not upgrade either of my seats of lightwave unless they solve some fundamental flaws in lightwave's workflows being 2 app based.

if they could and still remain 2 app based then fine....but the writing is on the wall that 1 app is the way to go for future development.

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 07:43 AM
i would be exit stage left if lightwave remained stuck as a 2 app system with a flaky 'hub' for lightwave 10 and would not upgrade either of my seats of lightwave unless they solve some fundamental flaws in lightwave's workflows being 2 app based.



I don't doubt that they will address the discrepancies between modeler and layout in Lightwave 10, but it may not come in the form of integration (yet). I have no doubt that they at least have an integrated app on their mind, but we don't know how much more work there is to be done in this area.

StereoMike
10-24-2008, 07:49 AM
Just think how long it takes for the bugfix version 9.51... now think of writing completely new stuff....

mike

still shocked about xsi moving to the axis of evil...

DiedonD
10-24-2008, 07:56 AM
So... Max is attempting to have the maximum from the market!

I imagined a bold worlord named Max, with his red headed ***** Maya on his left, and his softy (Softimage) pushover faggit sidekick on the right!

Thus much power is no good to any app. Its a shame XSI got caught, but there will be other stronger apps who'll fight off the evil with their own free existence. Dont worry :thumbsup:







Turns to the other 3D peer online:Damn... XSI is gone!! Did you hear that!!! What will the world come to now!!!

Cohen
10-24-2008, 08:10 AM
I just want to say that $35 million dollars for xsi is a steal. Was it not a few years ago that autodesk purchased maya for $168 million? Given that XSI has the same capabilities as Maya, one would think that Autodesk got a bargain. Perhaps this aquisition is more a reflection of the economic problems and fears all markets are having these days.

Quick question: how much did autodesk pay for skymatter's mudbox?

StereoMike
10-24-2008, 08:15 AM
As I read Avid actually offered XSI to whom would pay best, so Autodesk wasn't really hunting.

mike

Nemoid
10-24-2008, 08:23 AM
@ Cohen

but xsi didn't have the same value in the market. it was something Maya = 80% diffusion and XSI 8 % or something

Netvudu
10-24-2008, 08:24 AM
The fact that Autodesk paid 35 millions just means that Avid wasn´t selling XSI. It´s a giveaway. They didn´t want that project in the house anymore.
I understand they paid about 280 millions when they bought it from Microsoft...enough said.

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 08:25 AM
Yes, but Autodesk probably knows that XSI is better then Max so they sponged it.

Nemoid
10-24-2008, 08:27 AM
disappointed would not be apt description...

i would be exit stage left if lightwave remained stuck as a 2 app system with a flaky 'hub' for lightwave 10 and would not upgrade either of my seats of lightwave unless they solve some fundamental flaws in lightwave's workflows being 2 app based.

if they could and still remain 2 app based then fine....but the writing is on the wall that 1 app is the way to go for future development.

it HAS to become a single application with a new rewritten core. no doubt! i do hope this wil happen with v10

harlan
10-24-2008, 09:57 AM
Some are too closed minded here. I think it's cool they bought XSI (sucks, but still cool) - if ever there were a physical definition of the word Monopoly, it would be in the form of Autodesk.

Aside from the obvious negative concerns, change is good and it will be interesting to see what happens.

Personally, I'm kind of glad they bought them, I just wish they intertwine all the best parts of each program (XSI, Maya and Max) into one bad *** beast called SoftiMayaX.

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 10:04 AM
Personally, I'm kind of glad they bought them, I just wish they intertwine all the best parts of each program (XSI, Maya and Max) into one bad *** beast called SoftiMayaX.

Except they won't, and that's the problem. And if they ever do, they're going to chage the combined price of what Max, XSI, and Maya currently cost.

StereoMike
10-24-2008, 10:09 AM
The bad news on this side of the fence is, that you need an Autodesk product to get hired for a project, cause 90 % (did you know that 86.7 % of all statistics were made up on the spot?) of the production houses out there use an autodesk pipeline...now.

If they're really nasty they will make sure their software can work together nicely, while delivering a PITA for the guys using other packages.
90% of the creative guild probably won't care (cause they use e.g. a max-mudbox-cat pipeline) but it will hurt the competition badly (whose userbase doesn't get a foot in the door without AD apps)

mike

Netvudu
10-24-2008, 10:16 AM
Except they won't, and that's the problem. And if they ever do, they're going to chage the combined price of what Max, XSI, and Maya currently cost.


Exactly. The only close minded around here are the Autodesk guys, as they are showing once and again. It´s not easy to suppose based on marketing strategies, but it´s very easy to give opinions based on repeating facts which is what we got here.

Ask yourself, since Autodesk bought it, what has happened to Maya? Ncloth and nparticles? those were already existing third party efforts. Muscles? it was a cheap plugin gone expensive thanks to Autodesk implementation (which otherwise it´s exactly the same). Geometry caching? Houdini had that 5 years ago. Assets? blatant copy of Houdini digital assets. Polygon modeling tools? stuff that should have been there forever and everybody else has long ago....

Other software can accept that kind of development, but if you are supposed to be the avant garde of CGI this is unacceptable.
Compared to some of XSI (FaceRobot, Gator, multithreaded core) and Houdini (Particle and volume fluids, new volumetric engine, revamped rigging system) efforts for recent years, those Maya updates are laughable at best.

If this is the future for XSI, then I´m sure XSI users see it as no future.
It´s not about being close minded. It´s experience talking around here.

AbnRanger
10-24-2008, 11:31 AM
Sad really. Autodesk owning everything can't be good.

I think the extra competition andall was good for the industry.

It is a golden opportunity for an rapidly improving Lightwave though.
"Rapidly" is definitely not descriptive of Lightwave's development currently. They've been stuck on 9, going on 4 years now...with 10 no where in sight.

Nothing will change with LW's current development strategy as a result of this.
And I doubt many will be willing to leave XSI just because of its ownership...at least not until or unless they start jacking up the asking price. Maya went down in price since AD owned it, so there is no informed basis to just ship over some contrived Corporate allegiances. It's silly to get lathered up over what actually amounts to much of nothing. Avid needed the cash, and this likely caught AD by surprise, too.

I have no idea why Softimage bought CAT in the first place. It's a plugin for MAX, and it's apparent that they had no plans to bring it into XSI. But XSI 7 is a hot piece of software and technology, and with the Max team having designs on getting CAT brought on board, I think it makes good business sense for those reasons. I'm not real happy where this puts them in the market, as far as having more leverage now to set market pricing.

But, again, with C4D, Lightwave, and Houdini remaining, there are good options still on the table if AD gets crazy with pricing.

AbnRanger
10-24-2008, 11:46 AM
The fact that Autodesk paid 35 millions just means that Avid wasn´t selling XSI. It´s a giveaway. They didn´t want that project in the house anymore.
I understand they paid about 280 millions when they bought it from Microsoft...enough said.Somewhere beneath the surface, I'm sure AD is taking note at Avid's current plight. Final Cut seemingly came out of nowhere and (within a few years time) stole their lunch money! Avid was always overpriced due to its market saturation and leverage (that's why they bought Pinnacle Liquid edition, to kill off low-priced competition), and now market winds have changed so rapidly they suddenly find themselves in dire straights.

So, AD is not above having a low-priced competitor come in and pull the same trick that Final Cut did.

eyelandarts
10-24-2008, 11:57 AM
Isnt this grounds for an antitrust suit? Anybody know?

cresshead
10-24-2008, 12:20 PM
So, AD is not above having a low-priced competitor come in and pull the same trick that Final Cut did.

maybe modo could do that if they get their skates on and finish the app to ake it a full 3d app and not just a modeler/renderer...the thing that will stall that though is the embeded seats of maya, max and xsi in studios and also taught in colleges...

it would take a HUGE swing to change that and someone like apple to put a FORCE behind it..basically do what they did with final cut pro...thogh 3d apps are waaay more complicated to learn/use than a video/film editor.

bobakabob
10-24-2008, 12:46 PM
Abysmal news for the industry and a crushing disappointment for users. Like many here I've invested time learning XSI to complement Lightwave and just can't see that continuing. As a former registered 3DS user who rather foolishly splashed out nearly a grand on an educational copy in the mid 90s when you had to mortgage your house to do serious 3D, I'm still - ten years later - receiving occasional bizarre letters from Autoduck spelling out in threatening legalese their licensing terms and the perils of piracy. After discovering Lightwave my copy of 3DS long ago turned into a coaster.

Newtek have always served the 3D community well in every respect. Let's hope people will start appreciating Lightwave more. It's always been the best value 3D app out there. This could be good for Newtek, provided their competitors don't start playing games running loss leaders exploiting their Mr Creosote like monopoly.

evolross
10-24-2008, 01:31 PM
Actually, NewTek already offers an impressive companion upgrade price for licensed users of other products at the very price you mention. I've actually been seriously thinking about it since Softimage dropped Foundation.
That's how I got in. Earlier this year when I started working for myself, I bought my first personal copy of LW 9.3 for $595! Just because I had a license of Photoshop! That's pretty cool.

What's crazy is Newtek never even asked for my license key. They just took my word for it, charged me $595 and sent the software out. That's pretty cool too.

cresshead
10-24-2008, 01:34 PM
newtek also throw in free apps on upgrades like vue infinate, digital fusion and speed edit...you don;t get stuff like that with upgrades on 3dsmax, maya etc...

Titus
10-24-2008, 02:00 PM
newtek also throw in free apps on upgrades like vue infinate, digital fusion and speed edit...

And we know why they did this, not always a good sign from a software developer.

flakester
10-24-2008, 02:24 PM
For me, very sad news. Not quite sure why, just a gut feeling.

Seems like Autodesk are just buying up any publicly owned app producer that shows competition of any kind. I'm pretty sure [judging from the posts here] that I'm not the only one thinking that.

It all amounts to a larger market share for them. In theory; that's what business is about - to a point.
But there has to be fair competition; coming from someone who likes to think that his thought process is within 'reasonable' bounds.

Sure, it means they can offer interoperable apps that in essence - give a more consolidated workflow, but I do worry about the way that apps under their [Autodesk's] belt play with the rest of the field as others have stated: It could turn into a scenario akin to editing on a Mac, in FCP - and supplying your PC using editing-friend [or post artist] an HDV file.... No worky, never will worky.

As a user [and quite a happy one] of Softimage|3D - yeah, back in the day!.... I was a big, big fan of their f-curve workings, which I saw carried through to XSI - though I didn't spend long enough using XSI to glean a useful working knowledge of the whole app.
As someone who used Max for a bit, I can see why they want that piece of that XSI pie! :p

Maybe it is the case that they want to bring all of the labels that they now own into one package - a Killer App in their eyes, as it were.
Maybe it is the case that they want to snuff out interoperability between applications that they own Vs the few that remain outside of their ownership, forcing people to work on different planes [which I'm pretty sure would amount to Monopoly / Antitrust cases all round].

Or maybe it is as simple as just wanting to own a bigger slice of a growing market. We won't know for a while.

We have some high-punching people in this community - someone has got to know someone who knows someone who knows something..... if you know what I mean. Apologies that I'm not one of them - but I'm thinking outside of the single app box here. [Can't believe that I just typed a sound-bite. :hey: ]

Chances are that we might be able to get some inside info on the situation. Even if it is just a quiet word with A who knows B who knows C.

Well, just as long as LW remains where it is, ownership-wise.... I know where I am.

Apologies also if any of the points here have been covered already by folk in this thread - been busy and only skimmed.

flakester.

tburbage
10-24-2008, 02:26 PM
Well, to paraphrase the Car Talk Guys, "I just wasted a perfectly good morning reading the CGTalk XSI->AutoDesk thread..."

HRGiger -- Man, hope you haven't thrown your computer out the window this morning. I felt the same way when I had become an unwilling AutoDesk user by way of my Alias Maya 7 Complete license. Don't expect any outreach from AutoDesk to do anything tangible to make you feel better: it won't be coming.

I agree with most others' sentiments about the change being bad for the industry overall, as XSI was really innovating, which raises the bar for all others.

Thinking about the ramifications of this news for LW...

* It will strengthen AutoDesk's position in being able to solely own and define the binary, proprietary data exchange format: FBX (because then all 3 of these major players will emphasize it). I suspect they will de-emphasize the non-proprietary, extensible, XML-based COLLADA in favor of FBX as the means of data exchange (because they can't control it). LW is really working at their FBX support -- and a good thing. I just hope AutoDesk doesn't put up barriers to 3rd party implementation of importer/exporter tech. Of course, if you have some proprietary data you would like to transport not supported by FBX (that is not in AutoDesk's strategic interest to support), too bad.

* I suspect AD will eliminate Maya Complete, and focus their 3D offerings in the $4-6K price range. This won't really bother the big studios that much, but definitely opens up the competitive arena in LW's market niche. No more XSI Fundamental to muddy the waters. I see plenty of opportunity for LW to fill this vacuum, but based on the few, mostly dismissing comments in that XSI->AD thread (except by a few LW users), LW still has a long way to go to establish a strong reputation in the minds of this herd-driven industry which it was just edging up on attaining when the old team took a hike several years ago. With some overall workflow and UI improvements, continued focus on animation capability improvements, and a re-vitalized modeler -- and a lot of marketing and outreach -- I think it can get there.

* AutoDesk clearly believes the game market is where most of the growth will be in the market in the years ahead. LW will need to work on some key pieces to be seen as a serious contender in that niche now dominated by Max (but where Maya and XSI were hot on their heels). Most of it is in truly re-vitalizing modeler as the premiere polygonal/SubD modeler. This includes the critical UV toolset. Modeler should be able to hold up favorably to Modo, Silo, etc. in terms of both modern workflow and features. The FBX *and* COLLADA support also needs to be top notch. Luckily, the team is already aware of these needs and is showing commitment to making investments in these areas (well, we have to just believe for Modeler until we see what the team has in mind). I think it will dawn on many smaller game developers that they don't really *need* a multi-thousand dollar one-size-fits all package with expensive maintenance to create their game data/assets. I'd like to see LW be the first package they think of when they come to that conclusion.

* LW's support for complex meshs such as ZBrush and Mudbox is also critical. Not just being able to physically be able to get the data in/out, but being usable with really large data sets in memory. I don't have experience with this, but it sounds like the ZBrush<->LW workflow is pretty good. In any case, it needs to be really solid.

* LW's support, open-ness, user community, licensing, pricing/upgrade policies will continue to distinguish it from AutoDesk. I would have to PAY AutoDesk to move my license from its current machine, or to switch to running it under a different OS. Nuts to that.

tburbage
10-24-2008, 03:14 PM
I don't doubt that they will address the discrepancies between modeler and layout in Lightwave 10, but it may not come in the form of integration (yet). I have no doubt that they at least have an integrated app on their mind, but we don't know how much more work there is to be done in this area.

My fear is that the very deep, architectural level re-design implied by this change would take up virtually all of the attention of the small dev team, and would be at least a couple of years to get right (and stable). Layout's current design revolves around objects, Modeler's around low level components (verts/polys ... edges, to some extent).

I had hoped they might find some reasonable, workable middle ground, like introducing vertex map manipulation directly into Layout, limited rendering/lighting support into Modeler -- *whatever* it is that people need in one or the other module, but don't have access to now. I think there are a lot of people who spend most of their time in one or the other who see the ability of each module to have its design and focus around its primary task area well as a *good* thing. Model construction to me really is a very different workflow from scene setup, animation, lighting setup, rendering management, etc. Anyway, that's a whole separate area of debate from XSI->AD...

Andrewstopheles
10-24-2008, 03:17 PM
I think that Newtek Lightwave Layout should buy out Newtek Lightwave Modeler and merge the two apps - then we'd see an increase in market share. Call it "Master Collection Premium Plus Pro Special Edition Gold" or something.
Personally I think Adobe buying Macromedia worked out for the better. Autodesk, which I was raised on, hasn't been on my radar for the last 8 years and probably never will be again.
Is this wrong? I like Adobe buying Macromedia but I don't like Autodesk doing essentially the same thing to 3D? Maybe I just don't care cause I can do everything I need to do in Lightwave fast, cheap, and high quality.

adamredwoods
10-24-2008, 04:27 PM
Personally I think Adobe buying Macromedia worked out for the better. [....]
Is this wrong? I like Adobe buying Macromedia but I don't like Autodesk doing essentially the same thing to 3D? .

Adobe buying Macromedia was good and bad. Innovation has slowed down to a crawl, and new releases are expensive but barely worth it. But interoperability has increased, and there's a bigger parent company to fight against M$ and their Windows-only Silverlight.

I see that XSI will go bye-bye, but Maya and 3DS max will absorb their technology.

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 04:30 PM
My fear is that the very deep, architectural level re-design implied by this change would take up virtually all of the attention of the small dev team, and would be at least a couple of years to get right (and stable). Layout's current design revolves around objects, Modeler's around low level components (verts/polys ... edges, to some extent).



Well, there has been a lot of work done to the core of Lightwave since during the Lightwave 8 series. I got the impression from the start that the idea was to make Lightwave more modular so that pieces of code could more easily be swapped out. Whether or not this implies an object oriented approach, I don't know, but I don't think that they've been sitting on their hands when it comes to bringing Lightwave and modeler closer together. I think we'll probably all be surprised at what they have in store for us for Lightwave 10, but that's just the impression I have gotten.
As far as throwing my computer out the window at Autodesks 'consumption' of XSI, no, not that big of a crisis, it really just pisses me off more then anything. I was only invested for an educational version for $175 (still the full XSI unlimited though feature wise) so at least I just hadn't dropped $3000 or more like some others are kicking themselves for now. Then I would have been writing them every single day for the rest of my life until they gave me a refund. Even if it didn't work, I would have enjoyed bugging them.
I agree with your assessment from above with it opening up some market possibly for Lightwave sales. Some people don't like it when you refer to Lightwave as a hobbyists tool but I dont' understand that position. Most everyone starts out as a hobbyist and I think it's an important market to have. We all know that Lightwave is capable and can be and is being used in production all the time. But yes, I think it's still suffering from market visibility and Newtek marketing really needs to figure out to get it into as many peoples hands as possible. I don't care if they have to give out free copies. In fact, I think they probably should. Give away free licenses to the first 1000 people who respond to an ad. You may get a good percentage of people to upgrade when the time comes, all sales that they never had before. In fact, I think now is the time to make such an offer while people are still reeling and wondering if they should continue with XSI or not.

caesar
10-24-2008, 06:06 PM
I think we'll probably all be surprised at what they have in store for us for Lightwave 10, but that's just the impression I have gotten.

Since its a good surprise, no problem at all...


Give away free licenses to the first 1000 people who respond to an ad. You may get a good percentage of people to upgrade when the time comes, all sales that they never had before. In fact, I think now is the time to make such an offer while people are still reeling and wondering if they should continue with XSI or not.

Thats a good strategy, bring NT your XSI copy/license and 100 bucks and receive a bright and new LW copy!

Snosrap
10-24-2008, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by cresshead
newtek also throw in free apps on upgrades like vue infinate, digital fusion and speed edit...


And we know why they did this, not always a good sign from a software developer.

Your kidding right? Just ask Viktor-he's a marketing genius! He and Newtek give away LWCad during the 8 upgrade cycle and Viktor's sales and upgrades increase 300%
(did you know that 86.7 % of all statistics were made up on the spot?)

Cheers
Snosrap

Titus
10-24-2008, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by cresshead
newtek also throw in free apps on upgrades like vue infinate, digital fusion and speed edit...



Your kidding right? Just ask Viktor-he's a marketing genius! He and Newtek give away LWCad during the 8 upgrade cycle and Viktor's sales and upgrades increase 300%

Cheers
Snosrap

So do you think is a good sign to give a third party gift to help sell your own software. I wonder about the cost of Vue or Fusion compared with the profit of LW. In my case the Fusion offer made me to upgrade Fusion, not LW.

jin choung
10-24-2008, 10:02 PM
Your kidding right? Just ask Viktor-he's a marketing genius! He and Newtek give away LWCad during the 8 upgrade cycle and Viktor's sales and upgrades increase 300%

i think the point is not necessarily how it affects the third parties that participate but the reasons why such things are included in the first place.

i.e. probably not done out of the goodness of their hearts and because the upgrade was overwhelmingly compelling in itself....

*cough*

jin

Snosrap
10-24-2008, 10:41 PM
So do you think is a good sign to give a third party gift to help sell your own software. I wonder about the cost of Vue or Fusion compared with the profit of LW. In my case the Fusion offer made me to upgrade Fusion, not LW.

That's exactly why eyeon participated. Marketing monies are budgeted with the hopes of getting the best return for the investment, so from my view I see Newtek, e-on, W-Tools, and eyeon joining marketing forces to get the best bang for their (probably) limited budgets. Everyone wins. The end user gets new software solutions and the vendor has an extremely high probability of getting a new paying customer for future upgrades etc. I think its really good marketing by smaller players that want to expand their business. Unlike traditional manufacturing business models, software vendors have almost zero inventory and monies tied up in producing "products", so giving away software costs virtually nothing to the vendor. If the user never upgrades, what are they out, a 59 cent DVD? Bandwidth? On the upside, they possibly get a life-long paying customer. It's simply good marketing by all involved parties.

Cheers
Snosrap

Titus
10-24-2008, 10:47 PM
If I recall correctly LWCad or Fusion was offered after NT being late with the already paid upgrade. But I might be wrong.

Titus
10-24-2008, 10:49 PM
i think the point is not necessarily how it affects the third parties that participate but the reasons why such things are included in the first place.

i.e. probably not done out of the goodness of their hearts and because the upgrade was overwhelmingly compelling in itself....

*cough*

jin

You described my point with better words.

jin choung
10-24-2008, 10:52 PM
* I suspect AD will eliminate Maya Complete, and focus their 3D offerings in the $4-6K price range.

this is wishful thinking. WHY WOULD THEY? it's not hard to implement or maintain and it keeps their lower cost competitors at bay. if you can see an opening for enemies, they can too.


* LW's support for complex meshs such as ZBrush and Mudbox is also critical. Not just being able to physically be able to get the data in/out, but being usable with really large data sets in memory. I don't have experience with this, but it sounds like the ZBrush<->LW workflow is pretty good. In any case, it needs to be really solid.

totally agree here and i've expressed this sentiment in the "lw10 if it is only incremental" thread.

technologically, we lag but our lower overhead in having a modeler that does nothing but model and layout that has no modeling overhead - this should BUY US SOMETHING.

in terms of raw poly pushing power, in the ability to work where others bog down, this could and SHOULD be our saving grace. this can be the thing that drags even people who disdain and dismiss lw kicking and screaming to it.

where the techy apps get mired in their tech, we're stripped to the metal and ready to rock and roll.

ak47s ain't pretty or hitech but they "just work". they "get it done".

maybe have the lw logo holding an ak47? nah nah, won't play....

jin

Stooch
10-24-2008, 11:17 PM
i like that. although personally im more fond of the an94 abakan and the 103 model with the counterweight recoil compensator.

geothefaust
10-24-2008, 11:34 PM
After much use with the AR-15 & 203 attachment, I can say that I'm more fond of the P90. :)

Anyway, Jin is absolutely right. If LW can't do everything the big boys do, then they should at least be brute force tools that no single person or team can turn down. Period.

Stooch
10-24-2008, 11:50 PM
you know whats really funny. i went to a range with a 5.56 caliber AK72 (civilian export model made by SAIGA - basically a deballed AK, made to be 33% less accurate than the military variants by law)

Anyway, no scope, iron sights, 100 yards. there were people with ARs with scopes who were barely hitting their targets, while i was putting rounds into <inch targets with my cheap pos. :)

you must have served in the military in order to be shooting off m203 right?

http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/7871-2/DSC00402.JPG

http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/7868-2/DSC00401.JPG

we had an AR with us as well (sighting it in) using the same caliber so thats not all my groupings.

Cageman
10-24-2008, 11:59 PM
There were a few mentions and even those got a scoff or two. One guy said he didn't even know that Lightwave was still around. Newtek marketing, wake up call.
I think Newtek should offer a competitive buy in price for XSI users who dont' want to be owned by Autodesk.

I'm not sure if that particular guy would change his mind even if you glued his eye to the screen while browsing www.lightwave3d.com. I find it interresting that he is a FX TD working in Hollywood, but seems to have not noticed LWs presence in several movies, such as Iron Man, and pretty much all TV-series with vfx. He is just plain ignorant and should be concidered a minority. Generally though, I get it that the perception of LW is that it is a hobby tool. Nothing you would use on real production, which is kind of sad, really.

Cageman
10-25-2008, 12:12 AM
Geometry caching? Houdini had that 5 years ago.

And LW got MDD (which is now crossplatform through PointOven, except some apps that support it natively) around LW6 or 7 (or was it earlier?). Anyhow... the Geocache in Maya is quite useless at times, because it never caches non-deformed/non-binded geometry, which makes it a PITA to work with, when you have intricate rigs and hiearchies. The only thing you want to do is to select all the geometry, cache it, and get rid of ALL the rigstuff. But no... everything that is constrained or, for some reason, not skinned, has to be baked manually and will never be a part of the GeoCache.

MDDs, on the other hand, could care less about how the verts are animated. If they move, you can cache it...simple! *sigh*

EDIT: The GOOD thing with GeoCache (and this is something I would like to see in LW to further support MDD), is that they are all visible as traxclips (trax = MotionMixer...well...sort of) so it is a breeze to retime them or make them go faster or slower.

Cageman
10-25-2008, 12:33 AM
If I recall correctly LWCad or Fusion was offered after NT being late with the already paid upgrade. But I might be wrong.

No... those deals (Fusion and Vue) were pre-pay deals...

EDIT: And LWCad came as a complete surprise. It was a giveaway... I had already payed for my upgrade to LW9.0 and then, from a clear sky, LWCad was avaliable as a download. Maybe LWCad was a compensation for LW9.0 being late (very likely), but still... it's a sign of goodwill...

geothefaust
10-25-2008, 01:29 AM
Hey Stooch, that's not too shabby at all. :) Pretty good for using your posts. I'm not familiar with that weapon! How's it feel in the hands?

You know, I haven't gone shooting in ages, at least not proper shooting. Just your standard 9mm pistol (Ruger) and random objects out in the woods. Anyway, I like the 5.56, but nothing beats blasting off some rounds from a 7.62.

I was in the Army some years back. It feels like a whole life time ago now. Kind of odd really.

virtualcomposer
10-25-2008, 01:46 AM
you know whats really funny. i went to a range with a 5.56 caliber AK72 (civilian export model made by SAIGA - basically a deballed AK, made to be 33% less accurate than the military variants by law)

Anyway, no scope, iron sights, 100 yards. there were people with ARs with scopes who were barely hitting their targets, while i was putting rounds into <inch targets with my cheap pos. :)

you must have served in the military in order to be shooting off m203 right?

http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/7871-2/DSC00402.JPG

http://www.stooch.net/gallery/d/7868-2/DSC00401.JPG

we had an AR with us as well (sighting it in) using the same caliber so thats not all my groupings.

You must have been thinking of the autodesk buy out when you were shooting. LOL

Dodgy
10-25-2008, 01:47 AM
The phrase is 'I/he/she/it COULDN'T care less'

If you could care less that implies you do care...

warmiak
10-25-2008, 01:49 AM
Anyway, no scope, iron sights, 100 yards. there were people with ARs with scopes who were barely hitting their targets, while i was putting rounds into <inch targets with my cheap pos. :)




Well.. you just went to the wrong gun range ... :)

virtualcomposer
10-25-2008, 01:52 AM
I'd like to go to the target range and use those autodesk agreement contracts and the bullseye. Then I could sleep at night again and know that LW is going to make it to LW 10.

Cageman
10-25-2008, 01:54 AM
The phrase is 'I/he/she/it COULDN'T care less'

If you could care less that implies you do care...

Please quote if you reply to someone... makes it easier for everybody. :)

yeah... my sentiment is that MDDs couldn't care less HOW verts are animated. If they move, you can cache them, which is the way it should be with any type of Vertex Cache.

Stooch
10-25-2008, 03:56 AM
Thanks, I like the feel of the Saiga compared to a cheaper knockoff. its more solid and better put together than most of the foreign junk floating around. Most people think of AKs as rickety and cheap and thats mainly due to all of the home made knockoffs out there. Its heavier than the AR frame but the heft soaks up more of the recoil and helps to dampen shaky hands. Overall it seems to be just as solid and well put together as the AR so at that caliber its really up to the shooter and the quality of ammo. Overall though I agree, id take a 7.62 or a 308 any day. Atleast you can actually see the holes from 100 yards away lol. The bang it makes is also more satisfying.

anyway the reason why i brought up this example in the first place is that its not the price or ergonomics of the tool, its the user holding it. If you show up at a 100 yard range with a scope, you will end up hitting the target eventually, once you dial that sucker in. But fact is too much tool for the job just gets in the way of keeping it simple.


Hey Stooch, that's not too shabby at all. :) Pretty good for using your posts. I'm not familiar with that weapon! How's it feel in the hands?

You know, I haven't gone shooting in ages, at least not proper shooting. Just your standard 9mm pistol (Ruger) and random objects out in the woods. Anyway, I like the 5.56, but nothing beats blasting off some rounds from a 7.62.

I was in the Army some years back. It feels like a whole life time ago now. Kind of odd really.

Stooch
10-25-2008, 04:10 AM
Well.. you just went to the wrong gun range ... :)

I can go to any range if i wanted to find someone better than me. Im sure there are lots. However if it came down to it, at 100 yards by the time you finish fumbling with your scope and your tunnel vision, ill have a few rounds in that 1 inch dot - a perfect analogy for LW actually. cheap, simple and gets it done faster.

Verlon
10-25-2008, 05:18 AM
$35 million, isn't that less than the cost of 1000 seats of XSI? Never mind the other stuff.

That is pretty telling.

StereoMike
10-25-2008, 05:33 AM
more likely 10.000 or am I wrong?
2500$ * 10.000
(dunno the exact retail prize in $, in Euro it's 3000 for ess.)

mike

Verlon
10-25-2008, 05:33 AM
"Rapidly" is definitely not descriptive of Lightwave's development currently. They've been stuck on 9, going on 4 years now...with 10 no where in sight.



I would say LW's development is proceding quite nicely.

9.5 was a very substantial update for a point increase, feature wise (oh and it was free - we know Autodesk wouldn't do that. Probably charge you a full seat for the update and another $100 for the required installer).

Everyone has been clamoring "fix the #$%^#! bugs before adding new features. Well, they are fixing the #$%^#! bugs. Its not like the others are bug free.

9.5 may not be exactly what I wanted, but I could not honestly say that it is not being updated - often...

Anti-Distinctly
10-25-2008, 07:55 AM
The phrase is 'I/he/she/it COULDN'T care less'

If you could care less that implies you do care...

Present for you...

jasonwestmas
10-25-2008, 08:06 AM
Man, what a crock of ****. Seriously. I can't believe Avid sold XSI to them. I WAS considering purchasing XSI7, but I definitely will not now. Especially after reading that autodesk will be laying off the support staff (which, by the way, they rule and are very nice). What a huge, ****ing mistake.

/endrant

PS- BS.

I know man, I feel the same exact way. To see a major competitor sell out toa monster of a company like that is. . .well, kind of depressing.

jasonwestmas
10-25-2008, 08:16 AM
Oh balls. *pinches bridge of nose* Give it a few years, and it'll be Autodesk films made with Autodesk animators with Autodesk products. And if you don't have your Autodesk Degree ($35,000 for the Personal Learning Edition, $250,000 for the Producer's Degree) then y'ain't workin' in this town.

Okay, that's very pessimistic, and I don't think it's going to get *that* bad, but I'm not pleased about this.

Oh Gawd, you just resurrected my latest nightmare!

tonybliss
10-25-2008, 08:45 AM
reasons .. as they put it

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/file...public_faq.pdf

Verlon
10-25-2008, 09:11 AM
Pretty much says they intend to focus on FBX in their press release....

And why would you have three product lines competing with each other at the same price point?

We are dedicated to giving our customers choices....as long as they choose Autodesk.

wacom
10-25-2008, 11:41 AM
...If this is the future for XSI, then I´m sure XSI users see it as no future.
It´s not about being close minded. It´s experience talking around here.

Man- too true. I forked over a "hefty" sum for XSI and two years of maintenance based on using it for three versions and seeing substantial improvements and innovation at each stage. Things that many companies would tout as HUGE improvements often didn't even make the front page of an XSI release- but were in there!

Now, anyone who's been paying attention to the AD market system knows those things are DEAD. You can't just smash these apps together either- you might be able to put all the heads of each one together for a few years and come up with an new application- but we know the reality of that scenario. The core of how all three work couldn't be more different- not to mention the work flow styles.

For all intents and purposes, in about a year, the "spirit" along with the support staff etc. of XSI and softimage will be dead- and so goes the program as well. XSI 7 will exist for at least three years with little improvement...but with a different name.

I can't believe that earlier the same day I was talking to one of the head support staff, Steve, having a friendly chat about and XSI issue he was resolving for me AND what it's like to cycle in Montreal (he's bikes over 30 miles a day to work even in freezing weather) and just an hour later the guy was told he'd be let go- in this economic climate. That guys saved my ***** a couple of times...now he's f'ed. Sad.

BTW- it's AVID who sold out. 99.5% of the softimage staff had NO idea even though it had been going on for months! Talk about cold hearted market capitalism. Thanks Avid share holders! Why did you sell off the only profitable part of the company? Because you're market wimps who freaked at the low part of the market and were trying to get rescued from a sinking ship (avid) by selling the last life ring to a seal (XSI). Look for avid to be DEAD soon BTW- fools.

No- I'm not bitter...no sir...

LW is great, but there are some key things missing for me, so now I'm forced to look to houdini and C4D for augmentation.

Besides- I can see why AD wouldn't want to see something like ICE all the way through because it enables the users to make their own tools and be innovative. Somehow that just doesn't fit into their plugin buying based business model...

wacom
10-25-2008, 11:42 AM
My only hope is that some of the staff go to other companies such as sidefx, and newtek.

That is the only silver lining I can see...

jin choung
10-25-2008, 02:24 PM
But no... everything that is constrained or, for some reason, not skinned, has to be baked manually and will never be a part of the GeoCache.


kind of curious... if it's not being deformed in any way, WHY IN THE WORLD would you WANT to vertex cache?

baking the keyframes "manually" as you say is extremely quick and easy and without deformation, you're saving yourself a TON of cache memory by just tracking the movement of the transform node and not each vertex!

and getting transform animation to export via conversion apps has never been an issue.

jin

Cageman
10-25-2008, 02:40 PM
kind of curious... if it's not being deformed in any way, WHY IN THE WORLD would you WANT to vertex cache?

baking the keyframes "manually" as you say is extremely quick and easy and without deformation, you're saving yourself a TON of cache memory by just tracking the movement of the transform node and not each vertex!

and getting transform animation to export via conversion apps has never been an issue.

jin

Sure...

But we often retime things and having everyting in the trax editor without a rig is really neat (and that is what happens with geocaches, except those items that aren't cached). Now, we geocache and bake constraints, then we get rid of the rig and then, for some reason we have to retime things, open trax, retime, open graph editor, select all other non-cached items and retime, or create a new CharSet that encompasses the keyframe objects, create a trax clip for that and retime.

We have tons of issues with rendering and upon delivering a scene like this to the renderdudes we end up doing alot more work that eats away time, instead of just baking everything to geocaches. Fire and forget mentality... but no.. Maya has some shity stuff going on with pretty much every tool you use. Another thing is that we could possibly load a geocache to a totaly clean scene that ONLY has the geometry loaded without ANY rigs or ANY constraints IF Geocaches could be used on non-deformed or non-binded geometry.

In this case, I'm not really interrested in working outside of maya when working with GeoCache, since I use Pointoven for things that we want to move over to other apps.

jin choung
10-25-2008, 02:48 PM
i'm still not getting it-

if you're not deforming any of your geom, then they're parent constrained or simply parented to your rig.

1. you could STILL bake it such that you can get rid of your rig. "clean scene" as you say.

2. you could still swallow up your non rigged transform animations to CharClips and retime in TRAX. and with a reduced overhead, it would be a LOT faster.

so again, why would you WANT to geocache non deforming geometry?

jin

tburbage
10-25-2008, 02:49 PM
Maybe LWCad was a compensation for LW9.0 being late (very likely), but still... it's a sign of goodwill...

It was more than a sign of goodwill -- it was smart thinking by both the LWCad developer and Newtek. It gets more exposure to LWCad, and with the promise of upgrades in the future, and for Newtek gives them a better entry point into the important ArchVis market -- a market coveted to a large extent by AutoDesk. Based on comments by those users on the forums, it has really helped them to compete (coupled with LW's strong rendering pipeline).

Cageman
10-25-2008, 02:57 PM
i'm still not getting it-

if you're not deforming any of your geom, then they're parent constrained or simply parented to your rig.

1. you could STILL bake it such that you can get rid of your rig. "clean scene" as you say.

2. you could still swallow up your non rigged transform animations to CharClips and retime.

so again, why would you WANT to geocache non deforming geometry?

jin

Because it eats away time for us to dig into rigs and find ALL things that are not binded. 15 minutes / character for a cleanup pass is not uncommon, and we have ALOT of them. Most of the time goes into digging into all the mess, find the peices, bake them. It's not like you can just select ALL geometry and bake the keys, because that screwed up totaly because of grouping.

There are simply too many variables that doesn't allow us to work fast enough with this. Simplicity: select all the geo, bake, delete rig, done.

Memory: Well, we have 8GB/Core on the renderfarm, and mostly the scenes are rendered multithreaded so, memory is not of any concern, and harddrive space is cheap.

Bottomline: I could shave of 10 minutes/character and the best thing of all, I can fire and almost forget (Maya doesn't allow for 100% forget, because there are things that needs to be optimized ALWAYS).

What I want: Choice... just like with PointOven (vertex cache constrained objects, or keyframe bake)...

Choice...

That is what I want...

Stooch
10-25-2008, 06:57 PM
stop being melodramatic. its a tool. this is as stupid as mac pride. i use maya and at first i almost bought into the popular notion that it must be a bad thing for AD to buy it, from my pov nothing really happened as a result. maya is still developing at the same pace and still doing the same ****. Everyone is saying how autodesk doesnt innovate and how maya now just adds plugins and copies featues.

hello... go to any feature request forum and look at all the requests that cite other applications and beg the developers to copy them.

if you dont like the way autodesk buys up plugins instead of innovating, why are you using lw?

maybe some day i will be so lucky that my plugin gets purchased and added to the app.

oh and keep in mind that what happened with lux and newtek. its the opposite of a buy out but its not any better. or is it?

sure we have an innovative unfinished product and an older product that had to take a few steps back.

Stooch
10-25-2008, 07:03 PM
I think that autodesk will develop software as long as people use it. even if they compete with each other. the only blame for not enough development is a lack of interest from customers. so if you drop XSI, it will die for sure.

JohnMarchant
10-25-2008, 07:21 PM
Well i cannot see any financial or business reason to keep 3 applications that do the same thing with different codes or relatively different codes going. They will eventually be merged/dropped and then we will see what happens to the licenses already held of the applications that are dropped/merged.

Dont care what anyone who owns an autodesk product says this will eventually happen maybe not in the next year or two but it will. Its like Adobe et al and thier policy which is buy it integrate it or kill it.

Of course your software will always work but will it keep up with your hardware changes and you know that if you update hardware you will eventually have to update software

Stooch
10-25-2008, 07:28 PM
you cant. autodesk can. Thats why they are autodesk and you are you. :)

what if autodesk didnt buy XSI? what would happen then? no more xsi at all? is that what people prefer?

software comes and goes, now there is actually more reassurance that xsi will stick around than before. so you guys should be celebrating.

frantbk
10-25-2008, 07:42 PM
Instead of biting at each other over something that is already done. Why don't you ask the question why Avid felt it wasn't in their long term interest to keep XSI. I doubt very much that this is the last company that will be selling off products over the next few years. You still have Lightwave, Houdini, Cinema 4D. So what is the big cry about,...when Avid stopped selling XSI foundation you should have known something was happening at Avid that wasn't good.

frantbk
10-25-2008, 07:44 PM
Present for you...

If I could care less would that not be -1?

Stooch
10-25-2008, 09:55 PM
Instead of biting at each other over something that is already done. Why don't you ask the question why Avid felt it wasn't in their long term interest to keep XSI. I doubt very much that this is the last company that will be selling off products over the next few years. You still have Lightwave, Houdini, Cinema 4D. So what is the big cry about,...when Avid stopped selling XSI foundation you should have known something was happening at Avid that wasn't good.

who is biting?

jin choung
10-26-2008, 12:05 AM
It's not like you can just select ALL geometry and bake the keys, because that screwed up totaly because of grouping.

http://media.quilime.com/files/mel/Bake_under_parent.mel

super sweet lil' script that makes it so that groupings are irrelevant and you CAN simply select all geom and just bake.

but sure... it's nice to have a choice. got nothin' against that. but when choice seems limited, a trip to highend3d can solve a great many problems.

jin

Cageman
10-26-2008, 02:52 AM
http://media.quilime.com/files/mel/Bake_under_parent.mel

super sweet lil' script that makes it so that groupings are irrelevant and you CAN simply select all geom and just bake.

but sure... it's nice to have a choice. got nothin' against that. but when choice seems limited, a trip to highend3d can solve a great many problems.

jin

Thanks... :)

Mailed it to the cinematics group... will have take a look at it tomorrow at work.

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 04:29 AM
I think its kind of funny for some to be encouraging Newtek to offer some kind of incentive for people to migrate from XSI to LW when those same people rave about how much better XSI is then LW...

As far as Newtek marketing taking advantage of the situation well doesnt anyone seriously think thats going to happen? This same situation has happened several times in the past. Max was bounced around then picked up by Autodesk...never saw NT take advantage of that. Maya was bounced around even worse and NT never took advantage of that as well. Now XSI has been bought and I dont expect to see anything different out of NT.

If youre going to woo anyone over it has to be thru having a product that is actually better or even perceived to be better. One of those relies on something existing that is better or at least being developed in a timely fashion that will be better. The other depends on marketing. Its no wonder that some ppl see Blender as a viable alternative. Besides, that last thing you want to do is sell your product to ppl just because they dont like their new parents rather then offering something better.

Once the dust settles from this I think we shall see business as usual from all camps.

t4d
10-26-2008, 04:56 AM
Once the dust settles from this I think we shall see business as usual from all camps.

Agree

I think all up alot of studios and freelancers have mixed pipelines and with autodesk crosswalk & FBX etc we may get a REAL 3D format everyone can load ( if LW keeps up to date ) that may be good ..

cresshead
10-26-2008, 05:30 AM
and next for Autodesk?

i reckon buying xsi was a means of competitors Not getting their hands on xsi such as adobe or other corporations...autodesk will just add it to their lineup and maybe drop a couple of apps from the softimage buyout in a few months to thin out their options for customers.

as for next...
Renderer>>
well autodesk could really do with their own renderer in their products which at least matches mental ray so maybe buy Vray, final render or Brazil...maybe lightwave even!

Fluids/particles>
realflow, flood or Krakatoa

lipsync>
voice 0 matic as this runs on max and xsi

other apps>
zbrush, vue infinate, modo [despite what b.p. says if they are offered enough cash..they'll sell!]


i'm sure their quest to buy the whole market has not finished..and in the current state of business with autodesk having a good pile of cash available you never know what's next on their hit list.

everyone has their price!...even newtek and luxology

Matt
10-26-2008, 06:25 AM
Theoretical question ... if Autodesk announced they'd bought LightWave (I know that won't happen, but play along) what would do?

a) Stick with LightWave knowing there would be more cash to develop it

b) Leave for Modo / C4D

c) Find the nearest tree with a rope

:)

flakester
10-26-2008, 06:32 AM
Good question.

C4D looks quite capable these days, but I'd probably have a good sniff around Modo - more for knowing where it came from in thought. Would maybe take some time to look at blender too.

But, sometimes it's better the devil you know for your workflow; picking up a different app means picking up a new way of thinking too.
It's quite possible I'd stay with LW for a reasonable amount of time to see what the Powers That Be, had planned for it.

flakester.

-EsHrA-
10-26-2008, 06:51 AM
i'd leave lw in a heartbeat, which allready nearly was the case several times.

my choice - blender and c4d.

c4d is quite capable but dont be fooled, there's still stuff not there that we (lw-ers) do have.


mlon

cresshead
10-26-2008, 06:54 AM
Theoretical question ... if Autodesk announced they'd bought LightWave (I know that won't happen, but play along) what would do?

a) Stick with LightWave knowing there would be more cash to develop it

b) Leave for Modo / C4D

c) Find the nearest tree with a rope

:)

d)look forward to seeing lightwave finally have instances, renderable splines,ffd lattices and mental ray, radiosity like that of 3dsmax built into lightwave as well as moving it to be 1 single app:)...also drag n drop capabilities and shift drag copying.

actually...i'd probably stick with 3dsmax and hope to se some of the good stuff in lightwave trickle down into 3dmax/xsi and maya in the next release
before Autodesk srtip out the renderer and put lightwave's renderer into all their apps.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 07:32 AM
who is biting?

It's pretty clear you and some of the others are not aware of the tone of your posts.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 07:41 AM
BTW- it's AVID who sold out. 99.5% of the softimage staff had NO idea even though it had been going on for months! Talk about cold hearted market capitalism. Thanks Avid share holders! Why did you sell off the only profitable part of the company? Because you're market wimps who freaked at the low part of the market and were trying to get rescued from a sinking ship (avid) by selling the last life ring to a seal (XSI). Look for avid to be DEAD soon BTW- fools.

You do know that employee's have a responsibility to take an interest in the whole workings of the company and not just their day job. if these people had no idea than they weren't paying attention, I think the drama is getting a little thick here. Maybe Avid is dying company, or maybe they've realized that that type of software package is dead. With so many of the big FX shops using in-house software and multiple software packages Avid may have concluded that full package software is on the way out.

jasonwestmas
10-26-2008, 07:43 AM
Stooch doesn't bite often (Never Bit me when he probably could have), he's just a critic like many people here and there is nothing wrong with that per say.

Bog
10-26-2008, 07:50 AM
Well, no copies of XSI on eBay right now, they can't be panicking that badly ;)

frantbk
10-26-2008, 08:06 AM
Stooch doesn't bite often (Never Bit me when he probably could have), he's just a critic like many people here and there is nothing wrong with that per say.

I know I can be accused of being biting and negative, but to say Stooch is a critic isn't supportive of consent negative tones. You can be critical without being negative. When reading Stooch's and many of the other post in this thread there seems to be a lot of anger. I haven't bought XSI because when I was thinking about it they dropped foundation. That told me something wasn't right at Avid. The signs were there, many of you just didn't pay any attention to them, so you should be angry at yourselves instead of Avid. What happened at Avid is what happens with all publicly trade companies that have stockholders to worry about. The product is just a tool for generating cash for the stockholders. Privately owned companies are the ones that build products that try to last, ie., NewTek and Lightwave.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 08:08 AM
Well, no copies of XSI on eBay right now, they can't be panicking that badly ;)

If you just shelled out $6000 for XSI would you sell it on eBay? I think people have found out the Autodesk, from a companies point of view, doesn't damage their bottom line any worst than Avid did.

hydroclops
10-26-2008, 08:16 AM
Every post in this thread seems to see software sales 1 by 1, license by license. But isn't there a completely different way to do business?

What about a big effects company gearing up or a big movie in pre-production. Doesn't most money come from big, complex, negotiated contracts involving custom pipelines, custom code, and various promises regarding all kinds of things like publicity, future development, future sales, etc.

If this is true, then AD is in a good positition to combine all three products on a custom shop by shop basis.

How much of the market is about selling software seat by seat? Are small operations really different than hobbyists?

I'm just speculating but some people know...

sculptactive
10-26-2008, 08:28 AM
Theoretical question ... if Autodesk announced they'd bought LightWave (I know that won't happen, but play along) what would do?

a) Stick with LightWave knowing there would be more cash to develop it

b) Leave for Modo / C4D

c) Find the nearest tree with a rope

:)


If LW got swolled. MODO / MESSIAH.

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 08:51 AM
Id probably go with A. because I dont see much in the way of resources going into LW development and marketing right now that it should have.
Luckily I dont have to be in a situation of using LW or using something else when I can use LW AND use something else. They things are going its a necessity.

hrgiger
10-26-2008, 10:17 AM
I think its kind of funny for some to be encouraging Newtek to offer some kind of incentive for people to migrate from XSI to LW when those same people rave about how much better XSI is then LW...

As far as Newtek marketing taking advantage of the situation well doesnt anyone seriously think thats going to happen? This same situation has happened several times in the past. Max was bounced around then picked up by Autodesk...never saw NT take advantage of that. Maya was bounced around even worse and NT never took advantage of that as well. Now XSI has been bought and I dont expect to see anything different out of NT.

If youre going to woo anyone over it has to be thru having a product that is actually better or even perceived to be better. One of those relies on something existing that is better or at least being developed in a timely fashion that will be better. The other depends on marketing. Its no wonder that some ppl see Blender as a viable alternative. Besides, that last thing you want to do is sell your product to ppl just because they dont like their new parents rather then offering something better.


I know you're referring to me so I'll bite. You could at least have the balls to say so.
XSI is better then Lightwave, especially when it comes to character animation, hands down. But I'm not fond of supporting a corporation like Autodesk. And I fear that the innovation that Softimage has been bringing it's users has just hit a brick wall and I don't think it's going to see the same kind of development with Autodesk. Maya hasn't exactly been propelled forward with any kind of groundbreaking development since AD took over and it will be the same story with XSI. Right after ICE is released...you've just seen the peak of XSI development. I think it's going to be fairly plateau from here on out. No more innovation then we see out of a smaller company like Newtek. Unless AD can somehow convince me otherwise that the development of their newly acquired program is a priority, I won't upgrade when the time comes.
I never disparaged Lightwave and I never felt like it was software not worth using and said so when I started using XSI. I chose to pick up XSI because of its strong focus on character animation, an area where Lightwave has been lacking. Newtek has made some improvements to character animation with the most recent release and while I believe someone used to working in XSI would be sacrificing some power and flexibility, it is still a capable program and I have no problems recommending that Newtek market it as such. Right now I feel my main investment is in Newtek and Lightwave and of course I want to see them market their product, do well, and in turn, provide me with a constantly improving product. Not sure what you find so funny about it. Besides, not everyone who uses XSI does character animation and Lightwave has lots of strengths that XSI does not. A big reason that I upgraded my older LW license can be summed up in two words; LWCAD 3 and Fprime.
You're implying that I think people would just use Lightwave because they don't like Autodesk rather then because Lightwave is a good software package. I wouldn't be here if that were the case.

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 10:24 AM
Awww and i was trying to be nice about it. Problem is that you bite regardless...Youre so perceptive to see thru it Steve. You should be on NTs marketing team with all your industry experience and savvy.:thumbsup:

hrgiger
10-26-2008, 10:27 AM
Awww and i was trying to be nice about it. Youre so perceptive to see thru it Steve. You should be on NTs marketing team with all your industry experience and savvy.:thumbsup:

Thanks. And I was being nice, just clarifying my position which you so obviously slanted because you thought you had an 'Ah-hah!' moment going.

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 10:34 AM
Yes Steve your niceness is known world wide. Youre always one big ah ha moment. I always like to follow the pearls of wisdom that experienced industry insiders and professonals have...you know... people like you who have their pulse on the industry.

hrgiger
10-26-2008, 10:53 AM
I could care less about the industry or having it's 'pulse'. I think you mean 'people like you who have their finger on the pulse on the industry.'

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 11:04 AM
I Couldnt agree more, thanks for your help clarifying that. :)

hrgiger
10-26-2008, 11:06 AM
You're welcome, if only teaching you to model, texture, or animate were that easy as correcting your english.

Nicolas Jordan
10-26-2008, 11:07 AM
XSI is better then Lightwave, especially when it comes to character animation, hands down.

Lightwave has come a long way with it's rigging tools in 9.5 in my opinion even though they still need a bit of polishing. Maybe not enough to be as good as what XSI has to offer but it definitely narrows that gap. From what I have seen so far the new rigging tools in 9.5 even make rigging in a program like Messiah look really clumsy and slow in some ways.

Sande
10-26-2008, 11:09 AM
Hah, I ignored this thread for days, because I thought this to be just another old autodesk-is-going-to-buy-this-and-that-joke thread...

Oh well... Like usually - it's funny, because it's true. :D

jasonwestmas
10-26-2008, 11:17 AM
Ding, ding ding! Round2. . .Fight!

Intuition
10-26-2008, 11:18 AM
Meh,

I posted earlier in this thread and here I go again.

XSi under AD is in a better place. They will continue to develop it. They will probably be adding the fluid box simulator from the exocertex technologies.

http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=29;action=display;threadid=37695

They are also adding Vray and Final Render to the list of 3rd party renderers.

Look I know many people think its all down hill from here but Maya 2008 and 2009 are better then 8.5 across the board and Max has a much better open GL display since the merger as well.

XSi just got started with ICE and many other features in 7. They will add a few features for 7.x as well for a release in 2009 I bet.

I'll be happy to come back here and admit I was wrong in a year but I don't think its likely. I know that people would feel better if Softimage was not owned by Autodesk but back when they bought Maya people thought Max and Maya were going to merge and that didn't happen.

They sky is not falling. Heck when Avid bought Softimage everyone thought XSI was going to the dumps. "Oh no Softimage will now be a 3d text tool for Avid editing workstations". Didn't happen.

All will be fine.

hrgiger
10-26-2008, 11:27 AM
Lightwave has come a long way with it's rigging tools in 9.5 in my opinion even though they still need a bit of polishing. Maybe not enough to be as good as what XSI has to offer but it definitely narrows that gap. From what I have seen so far the new rigging tools in 9.5 even make rigging in a program like Messiah look really clumsy and slow in some ways.

That's why I said I see no reason to promote during this time with the AD turmoil. There have been some good improvements with the latest release but there are still some fundamental and underlying issues to deal with. It's not just about adding missing features.

tburbage
10-26-2008, 01:35 PM
You're welcome, if only teaching you to model, texture, or animate were that easy as correcting your english.

Guys, please stop :)

I think both of you have always had good ideas and interesting perspectives, but running each other down isn't getting anybody anywhere.

Steve and I had both just noticed, after reading that hideously long CGTalk thread about XSI->AD, that the very few times LW was even mentioned in terms of "what non AD choices do we have?", it was either dismissed outright, or even with "is that app still out there?". This just suggested that LW's visibility is way too low. What Newtek can realistically do about that, I don't know for sure, but, if that thread is representative, more clearly needs to be done.

Larry, you're comment (paraphrasing): "LW has to really bring the goods" is certainly true and the ultimate bottom line. If people drop by to check out an app, it has to look promising to them and invite deeper exploration pretty quickly. I suspect most people used to the Max, Maya, or XSI interfaces will not be impressed with LW after a *cursory* look.

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 01:54 PM
Tburbage,
Very true. Problem is that all they have to do to validate their belief that LW isnt a professional level app is to go by Newteks booth during siggraph. Ive never seen anyone spend money on a booth to convince people that all you can do with LW are cartoony stuff or show 'new' features that are ancient history in every other 3d app...

tburbage
10-26-2008, 02:39 PM
Tburbage,
Very true. Problem is that all they have to do to validate their belief that LW isnt a professional level app is to go by Newteks booth during siggraph. Ive never seen anyone spend money on a booth to convince people that all you can do with LW are cartoony stuff or show 'new' features that are ancient history in every other 3d app...

I certainly agree with you -- perception means so much. I've been watching the 3D/CG world for 10 years now I guess (far fewer than many here), and demonstrated "high end" usage seems to have always been the key to establish a strong reputation in the industry and bring new people in.

I suppose a lot of that means hard, hands-on behind-the-scenes work with the studios which *are* using LW to keep those relationships going strong.

But I think it would also be well worth the investment for NewTek to contract with a few well-known and well-respected industry folks to create some really high quality content for LW to be able to provide as examples, and then build good documentation around that content. If that had been done with IK Booster, for example, it might not have languished in obscurity. If at least one or two of these people weren't already long-time LW users, the team learn a ton from the feedback they would get from those people.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 03:19 PM
It's pretty clear you and some of the others are not aware of the tone of your posts.

who did i bite exactly?

Stooch
10-26-2008, 03:22 PM
I know I can be accused of being biting and negative, but to say Stooch is a critic isn't supportive of consent negative tones. You can be critical without being negative. When reading Stooch's and many of the other post in this thread there seems to be a lot of anger. I haven't bought XSI because when I was thinking about it they dropped foundation. That told me something wasn't right at Avid. The signs were there, many of you just didn't pay any attention to them, so you should be angry at yourselves instead of Avid. What happened at Avid is what happens with all publicly trade companies that have stockholders to worry about. The product is just a tool for generating cash for the stockholders. Privately owned companies are the ones that build products that try to last, ie., NewTek and Lightwave.

when i read your post i sense alot of whining. of course its a bit immature for me to judge your tone because i dont know you personally. however now that you made a personal issue where there was none id like to clarify that i will be biting you from now on on purpose. I cant stand people like you btw. you sit here and ***** about me being negative. have you looked up the definition of hypocrite lately? im sure everyone in this thread really wants to hear how you feel people should interact. its soooo important for us to fit your idea of a proper way to post.

thanks so much for being a moral cop. we really need someone like you cluttering a thread with your personal gripes.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 03:25 PM
i think that you really should check yourself bfore accusing autodesk of not innovating. Personally i see NT doing alot of catching up and very little of innovation.


I know you're referring to me so I'll bite. You could at least have the balls to say so.
XSI is better then Lightwave, especially when it comes to character animation, hands down. But I'm not fond of supporting a corporation like Autodesk. And I fear that the innovation that Softimage has been bringing it's users has just hit a brick wall and I don't think it's going to see the same kind of development with Autodesk. Maya hasn't exactly been propelled forward with any kind of groundbreaking development since AD took over and it will be the same story with XSI. Right after ICE is released...you've just seen the peak of XSI development. I think it's going to be fairly plateau from here on out. No more innovation then we see out of a smaller company like Newtek. Unless AD can somehow convince me otherwise that the development of their newly acquired program is a priority, I won't upgrade when the time comes.
I never disparaged Lightwave and I never felt like it was software not worth using and said so when I started using XSI. I chose to pick up XSI because of its strong focus on character animation, an area where Lightwave has been lacking. Newtek has made some improvements to character animation with the most recent release and while I believe someone used to working in XSI would be sacrificing some power and flexibility, it is still a capable program and I have no problems recommending that Newtek market it as such. Right now I feel my main investment is in Newtek and Lightwave and of course I want to see them market their product, do well, and in turn, provide me with a constantly improving product. Not sure what you find so funny about it. Besides, not everyone who uses XSI does character animation and Lightwave has lots of strengths that XSI does not. A big reason that I upgraded my older LW license can be summed up in two words; LWCAD 3 and Fprime.
You're implying that I think people would just use Lightwave because they don't like Autodesk rather then because Lightwave is a good software package. I wouldn't be here if that were the case.

cresshead
10-26-2008, 03:37 PM
if any corporation out there can turn me into an xsi user rather than a 3dsmax/lightwave user it would be autodesk.

all it will be down to would be price, ease of use and features...get some of the standard 3dsmax and maya features and you may get me to try out xsi again.

it' a good app but for 'me' it lacks some features and workflows i'm used to from 3dsmax and ones i'm not willing to trade just the be trendy and get a xsi hoodie.

maybe xsi 2009 will change that.

looks like xsi is in the best hands now from the options avialble.

i'd guess that xsi has sold about 10,000 seats...last i heard 3dsmax sold over 200,000 to show market share.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 03:53 PM
who did i bite exactly?

Any view that doesn't conform to yours. Telling people to get real about their posts and views. Of course when you think about it because this is a 3D site there is some humor in that.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 03:57 PM
Any view that doesn't conform to yours. Telling people to get real about their posts and views. Of course when you think about it because this is a 3D site there is some humor in that.

ah I see. well if you make an illogical post and you find me biting you then you should be more concerned about your lack of logic rather than my biting. of course ill be happy if you actually tried to dispute my logic using actual logic instead of throwing a hissy fit. unless of course you are throwing the hissy fit because you cant throw some logic.

either way logically speaking, arent you expressing angry, negative thoughts to me because i dont conform to your idea of proper posting etiquette?

but i do agree, this is a 3D forum, not a posting etiquette forum. so i do find this funny.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 04:04 PM
when i read your post i sense alot of whining. of course its a bit immature for me to judge your tone because i dont know you personally. however now that you made a personal issue where there was none id like to clarify that i will be biting you from now on on purpose. I cant stand people like you btw. you sit here and ***** about me being negative. have you looked up the definition of hypocrite lately? im sure everyone in this thread really wants to hear how you feel people should interact. its soooo important for us to fit your idea of a proper way to post.

thanks so much for being a moral cop. we really need someone like you cluttering a thread with your personal gripes.

It only becomes a personal issue if one person makes it. Wow! you can't stand people like me, but you call me whining. What is your negative bitching, but whining. It wouldn't be so bad but your negative whining is over at the Lux site, its here at the NewTek site. What are you and the others bitching about - the big bad Autodesk buying up Softmiage XSI - what wrong with them, they already have Maya and 3D max, boo-ho, boo-ho."

Kids, it is not the end of the world. It's business, but you kids don't want to talk about that, you just want to whine about how mean the big bad Autodesk company is and how they are ruining your lives, boo-ho - because there is one less company to choose from boo-ho.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 04:09 PM
ah I see. well if you make an illogical post and you find me biting you then you should be more concerned about your lack of logic rather than my biting. of course ill be happy if you actually tried to dispute my logic using actual logic instead of throwing a hissy fit. unless of course you are throwing the hissy fit because you cant throw some logic.

either way logically speaking, arent you expressing angry, negative thoughts to me because i dont conform to your idea of proper posting etiquette?

but i do agree, this is a 3D forum, not a posting etiquette forum. so i do find this funny.

And what is your logic? Logic states that your post and my post are two stupid people trying to one up one with snit fits. :neener:

Stooch
10-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Kids, it is not the end of the world. It's business, but you kids don't want to talk about that, you just want to whine about how mean the big bad Autodesk company is and how they are ruining your lives, boo-ho - because there is one less company to choose from boo-ho.

yes thats my pov and there is nothing wrong with it, you dont like it? deal with it. get witht he program, thats the reality of life. you can whine and throw a hissy fit and stop using XSI because AD bought it now but logically from my POV its the best possible outcome. the worst thing people can do is stop using XSI just because AD bought it, because THAT will kill XSI. So if you really love using XSI and think its so great, then by all means keep using it. afterall AD isnt going anywhere.

i feel that this kind of thinking is melodramatic and immature, you think im biting you? FINE. im biting you. EAT IT. Im not directing this pov to anyone specific until you come here and try to make it personal. Yes you are absolutely right, it only becomes personal when you make it personal. Do go ahead and read back, notice who made it personal.

thanks.

the real idiot is the one that fails to use logic. again thats my POV and it only applies to you if you fit the bill.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 04:22 PM
yes thats my pov and there is nothing wrong with it, you dont like it? deal with it. get witht he program, thats the reality of life. you can whine and throw a hissy fit and stop using XSI because AD bought it now but logically from my POV its the best possible outcome. the worst thing people can do is stop using XSI just because AD bought it, because THAT will kill XSI. So if you really love using XSI and think its so great, then by all means keep using it. afterall AD isnt going anywhere.

i feel that this kind of thinking is melodramatic and immature, you think im biting you? FINE. im biting you. EAT IT. Im not directing this pov to anyone specific until you come here and try to make it personal. Yes you are absolutely right, it only becomes personal when you make it personal. Do go ahead and read back, notice who made it personal.

thanks.

the real idiot is the one that fails to use logic. again thats my POV and it only applies to you if you fit the bill.

Logic would state that you were directing it at everyone that didn't think like you, so you're telling everyone to EAT IT. Everyone not thinking like you can take your comments as a personal attack on their views. On every forum your at you tell everyone their to EAT IT wit the tone of your attack. You want to use logic, you've just been talked to in the same manner that you talk to everyone else - You don't like it, your telling me you don't like me and you'll me it personal from now on and to EAT IT. Talk about immature and illogical.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 04:26 PM
lol. whatever. you arent changing my mind. but if it makes you feel better do vent.

logic also states that you are bitching at me because i dont share your POV so you are a hypocrite.

i find it logical to let a child cry himself out and let the emotions subside. your insults are pretty empty from where i stand.

now get yourself a tampon, some monistat and a thinking cap. im out.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 04:32 PM
lol. whatever. you arent changing my mind. but if it makes you feel better do vent.

logic also states that you are bitching at me because i dont share your POV so you are a hypocrite.

i find it logical to let a child cry himself out and let the emotions subside. your insults are pretty empty from where i stand.

now get yourself a tampon, some monistat and a thinking cap. im out.

You like the word hypocrite, and bitching, and EAT IT. You and I do share the basic view that too many people here having nothing better to do but generate drama about nothing. The question I have to ask is why are you at all the sites spreading your view of negative joy. Doesn't Logic state that would make you a junk for the drama just as much as the others are junkies for their end of the world drama.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 04:35 PM
i think that you are enjoying your little drama too much. but dont take that personally.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 04:46 PM
i think that you are enjoying your little drama too much. but dont take that personally.

Non taken, I think the community is enjoying the drama of two unarmed guys in-a-snit of stupidity. :thumbsup:

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 05:24 PM
But I think it would also be well worth the investment for NewTek to contract with a few well-known and well-respected industry folks to create some really high quality content for LW to be able to provide as examples, and then build good documentation around that content. If that had been done with IK Booster, for example, it might not have languished in obscurity. If at least one or two of these people weren't already long-time LW users, the team learn a ton from the feedback they would get from those people.

What I see is newtek always asking/begging for content donations rather then bellying up and doing something like was done for Blender (Elephants Dream and Big Buck Bunny). Those were done by relatively small teams with free software.

I have to agree with Stooch about what he said about seeing more of an attempt at catching up rather then innovating. Most of the new features IMO especially with the rigging tools dont even bring LW up to so called industry standards. Apparently this is one of the goals as far as LW is concered - to make it more industry standard.
The problem is that the other more industry standard apps are already better at being industry standard. I can buy any of them anytime or go get Blender. I would like to see Newtek be clever about using what small resources they have an innovate. Do things with a twist that nobody else is doing. Keep LW as a mean, lean good workhorse generalist app. What Ive always loved about LW is the spontonaety of its use... that I can jump into it and get things done at a high quality in a short period. LW used to be FUN to use and I am having trouble finding the fun in it anymore. These new features actually add little IMO to make it easier to use while retaining that high quality. Right now just about every aspect including the new features have a caveat of some sort associated with each.

What I remember is a quote from years ago that said."when ppl settle upon a standard its usually at the cost of performance". I think we are seeing Lightwave moving away from where its always been strong into areas where other apps are much stronger.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 05:56 PM
ill say this. if i were to pick the most innovative and unique thing about lw, i would say its hypervoxels. it really makes lw stand out. it really does. in terms of sprite based effects its second to none and believe me - i have spent alot of time hacking with mayas mental ray sprites. Oh the pain.

in terms of a fast pipeline, caching, render speed and viper preview, hv workflow is really REALLY effective.

i would love to see HV be the FUME of lightwave. but at a much more accessible price.

with maya 2009 nparticles, the door is beginning to shut.

but hey, im probably biased.

jasonwestmas
10-26-2008, 05:57 PM
Hi Larry, in the areas these new features ARE working, I think it is even more FUN to use and I can still keep things simple if I want to. :) Innovation, yes it is lacking in that dept. but then again I have never used lightwave to use a cool new tool that nobody thought of, I use it because it was easier to get things done faster. (An exception would be that rigging has always been a pain in the past) For what I do with characters I do it to have fun and create things I've never seen before as fast as I have the time for. I do this because I have to do the mind numbing technical stuff for the bread and butter outside of that.

So I don't really see why you don't think that LW 9.5.x is not user friendly, it seems pretty straight forward when it works as intented. Maybe you are talking about the people who have never used LW before? I think the simplicity is still in there imo. I am waiting on an update for Fprime however so I can go back to using that with Nodal. Render previews are Ace!

Larry_g1s
10-26-2008, 07:07 PM
This is junk! This has really nothing to do with "will AD keep XSI", i think they will, this has everything to do with Monopolizing the market & killing competition by purchasing them up. Even if I liked AD, this just isn't right.


I would love to see Newtek grab one or two of the programmers from XSI. Especially the ones who dealt with character animation.:devil:This is the only thing good I could see coming out of it for a LW user. NT get some of the CA XSI devs.!

Stooch
10-26-2008, 07:15 PM
like i said. avid was going to unload XSI at a crackhead price. AD made a smart purchase.
better than throwing the dev team on the street... but i guess its the hot thing right now. fighting the man. i guess all of a sudden the current xsi developers will lose their creativity right?


This is junk! This has really nothing to do with "will AD keep XSI", i think they will, this has everything to do with Monopolizing the market & killing competition by purchasing them up. Even if I liked AD, this just isn't right.

This is the only thing good I could see coming out of it for a LW user. NT get some of the CA XSI devs.!

Larry_g1s
10-26-2008, 07:39 PM
like i said. avid was going to unload XSI at a crackhead price. AD made a smart purchase.
better than throwing the dev team on the street... but i guess its the hot thing right now. fighting the man. i guess all of a sudden the current xsi developers will lose their creativity right?I didn't say it wasn't going to move forward or get better, but you can't honestly tell me it will at the rate it would have with healthy competition...not possible.

And the fact of the matter is, this is still close to a monopoly in some ways, which is never good.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 07:56 PM
Well everyone keeps making bets on which AD will unload, maya, or 3D max. I don't think they'll unload any. Motion builder is more likely to be discontinued before any of the major 3 full packages. There is a investment that has to be drawn out of the purchase before any package can be discontinued. I think they bought XSI for face robot and ICE.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 08:13 PM
I didn't say it wasn't going to move forward or get better, but you can't honestly tell me it will at the rate it would have with healthy competition...not possible.

And the fact of the matter is, this is still close to a monopoly in some ways, which is never good.

ok i agree with you that competition is good. however if xsi is all of a sudden no more. then there is no competition.

right now XSI will still be XSI so competition is there. not between companies but between departments. i dont think anyone will all of a sudden decide to not be competitive. you are talking about individual programmers here who are very smart and naturally competitive. If i was a lazy MAX programmer (if there is such a thing) I would honestly be worried about my job with XSI brains floating around.

I really want to get pro experience in XSI to be honest its so attractive and sexy, its just hard to spend time with it when my day jobs bounce me between maya and LW. to me the biggest obstacle is that not enough studios use it! maybe with AD this will change...

so i am genuinly optimistic. also id love to see maya fluids in XSI!

SplineGod
10-26-2008, 08:37 PM
Going back to AD aquiring Max, then Maya, XSI, MotionBuilder, Mudbox etc what have they stripped and discontinued? Im curious if they actually have done this.

frantbk
10-26-2008, 08:41 PM
Well if you listen to everyone, AD has to drop something,...the just can't have the ability to buy everything,.....can they?

Anyway, the industry is shrinking, which is to be expected with the current down turn of the economy.

Stooch
10-26-2008, 09:01 PM
i think they can keep everything. for autodesk its like a pool of profit thats spread across different assets so that the risk is shared and reduced as a collective. now whatever profit XSI makes simply add to this pool instead of taking away from it. lol capitalistic socialism. if anything they stand to make more this way instead of making a single uber app. this is speaking about all the people that use multiple apps, even while paying full price for each.

toyotas car business is actually a small piece of the pie :) look into their other business markets.

hrgiger
10-26-2008, 10:17 PM
i think that you really should check yourself bfore accusing autodesk of not innovating. Personally i see NT doing alot of catching up and very little of innovation.

I never implied otherwise about Lightwave. Most of the things I see coming from the 9 series are things that other apps have had for some time and I would agree that most of the things are about playing catch up. But as I said, I find Lightwave to be a very capable app, innovation or not, especially when you factor in LWCAD into Modeler workflow and Fprime into Layout.
We'll wait and see how much work XSI receives under AD.

JustBob
10-27-2008, 01:18 AM
This didn't take long to appear:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kR7UWImpG54

Larry_g1s
10-27-2008, 01:22 AM
I saw that...pretty dang funny. lol when that one gal consults the other by saying "it's okay, were on a contract"...funny.

jin choung
10-27-2008, 01:32 AM
This didn't take long to appear:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kR7UWImpG54

AWESOME!!! LOL!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

that was probably the most obscurely (to most) hilarious thing i've seen in a long time!

what movie was that from? forgot the name of it but remember the hoopla about it....

jin

p.s. that [email protected]#$ that made the view cube! BLENDER BOY!!! hahaha... oh man... that's hilarious.

cresshead
10-27-2008, 02:19 AM
fantastic youtube clip!

dude!...love it!

Stooch
10-27-2008, 02:24 AM
nice. i kinda feel ashamed to be laughing at this but it was funny.

so if autodesk are the nazis, who are the allies? is lightwave the soviet union? is luxology USA? houdini would be the UK i guess.

jin choung
10-27-2008, 03:18 AM
hmmmm... lux is too small and not yet a "combined arms" app....

actually, under this scenario, the u.s. would probably be best represented by lw - not as techy as it should be for the america role but there's idealism and numbers. blender could be the soviets....

hahahaha... so is xsi france? : )

jin

StereoMike
10-27-2008, 03:27 AM
LMAO!! Thanks for the link! btw it's "Der Untergang", a very good movie with a brilliant Bruno Ganz as A.H.
I think it's actually a bit harder to read english while you hear your mother language :)

mike

hrgiger
10-27-2008, 03:40 AM
This didn't take long to appear:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kR7UWImpG54

That was super. Good medicine for some of us.

COBRASoft
10-27-2008, 07:04 AM
For people understanding german it's a littlebit confusing :) But it is funny.

P.S.: Pitty they always abuse the germans from 60-70 years ago for these kind of things. Most of the world is not better for the moment: USA, Israël, Islam, Half of Africa, ... They all kill innocent people daily...

cresshead
10-27-2008, 07:14 AM
i surpose it's because the nazi's and hitler are such a strong icon for 'the evil ruler'...invading and taking over the world on a path to dominate everybody and everything plus destoying whole areas of competition...that's where some see autodesk as the third reich [3rd dimension?...]

as a user of autodesk products [3dsmax and combustion] i still find it funny even if they are poking fun at products i like and use....and it should have been the steering wheel gizmo not the viewcube...the steering wheel gizmo is truly stupid idea....exceptfor the rewind function.

robertoortiz
10-27-2008, 08:00 AM
Before we get off track..(

Well I just wonder were we stand in terms of our future. Not only for Lightwave, but for ANYONE trying to do graphics of any sort with a computer..

Lets think about it..

One company effectively controls most of the computer graphics market.

It cannot be downplayed how monumental this purchase is for our industry.
In effect we have one player now controlling the destiny of the most Entertainment graphics industry an frankly , if history is any indicator, they really want to become the ONLY player in the world of graphics
As a company Autodesk, has expanded in the past 10 years into a force that DOMINATES all the markets they enter. Right now they control Architectural Design, Industrial Design & now the Gaming/ Film & Television markets.

They still don't control the Web Design, Application Programming* & the Video market. But that might be in the development stages...


What this means for us is that if this market integration continues you will have to deal with ONE company , Autodesk, to (as they say) make a buck...

Is it right for ONE company to have that much power over ALL the computer graphics markets?

This means that one player an dictate terms to other companies and set up industry wide standards that benefit them

They could drop support on any 2d/3d format they wish, and move to proprietary formats for all 3d work. Not only that, if they wish now they could now establish subscription certification programs to establish that you can use their software.

Case in point

Architectural DesignAutoCAD*is the standard of that industry.
Industrilal Design
AliasStudio.(AKA studio tools)
Gaming/ Film & Television
One company, thanks to wise adquisitions, now controls the 3 biggest competitiors

Maya
3D Studio
Motion Builder
Mud Box


And of course Softimage...
The only markets they do not yet control are:

Desktop Graphics & Publishing (Adobe, Microsoft)
Web Design*(Adobe, Microsoft)
Application Programming (Microsoft, etc)
Non Linear Editing (Pinnacle, Avid, Apple & Sony etc)

jasonwestmas
10-27-2008, 09:20 AM
There should be only a "fewer" select individuals who control offices/ of great power. That's why there are CEOs, Presidents, Emperors etc. It should create unity and out of that should come innovation and constructive thought. Question is, WHO should be granted that amount of power, the owner and directors of AutoDesk? Sheesh, sounds scary indeed. I'd be curious to know how many people that entails who are in charge of providing the world with creative tools if creativity is even in their minds at all.

cresshead
10-27-2008, 02:03 PM
Before we get off track..(

Well I just wonder were we stand in terms of our future. Not only for Lightwave, but for ANYONE trying to do graphics of any sort with a computer..

Lets think about it..

One company effectively controls most of the computer graphics market.

It cannot be downplayed how monumental this purchase is for our industry.
In effect we have one player now controlling the destiny of the most Entertainment graphics industry an frankly , if history is any indicator, they really want to become the ONLY player in the world of graphics
As a company Autodesk, has expanded in the past 10 years into a force that DOMINATES all the markets they enter. Right now they control Architectural Design, Industrial Design & now the Gaming/ Film & Television markets.

They still don't control the Web Design, Application Programming* & the Video market. But that might be in the development stages...


What this means for us is that if this market integration continues you will have to deal with ONE company , Autodesk, to (as they say) make a buck...

Is it right for ONE company to have that much power over ALL the computer graphics markets?

This means that one player an dictate terms to other companies and set up industry wide standards that benefit them

They could drop support on any 2d/3d format they wish, and move to proprietary formats for all 3d work. Not only that, if they wish now they could now establish subscription certification programs to establish that you can use their software.

Case in point

Architectural DesignAutoCAD*is the standard of that industry.
Industrilal Design
AliasStudio.(AKA studio tools)
Gaming/ Film & Television
One company, thanks to wise adquisitions, now controls the 3 biggest competitiors

Maya
3D Studio
Motion Builder
Mud Box


And of course Softimage...
The only markets they do not yet control are:

Desktop Graphics & Publishing (Adobe, Microsoft)
Web Design*(Adobe, Microsoft)
Application Programming (Microsoft, etc)
Non Linear Editing (Pinnacle, Avid, Apple & Sony etc)


you forgot to list audio, audio fx and music!

...we don't watch silent movies, silent games, silent adverts on tv or silent tv shows.
autodesk have nothing for audio recording and music compostition, scoring..so they have no end to end product lineup
as yet..still their apps in other areas are quite capable in the compositing area, product design etc.

but their sub catagory media and entertainment has nothing on offer or sound design.


autodesk is nowhere with audio.

cresshead
10-27-2008, 02:11 PM
maybe at somepoint in the near future autodesk will do a similar move to that of what apple did and buy an app like logic to add in a sound design app to their media and entertainment arm.

achrystie
10-27-2008, 05:21 PM
Before we get off track..(

Case in point

Architectural DesignAutoCAD*is the standard of that industry.
Industrilal Design
AliasStudio.(AKA studio tools)
Gaming/ Film & Television
One company, thanks to wise adquisitions, now controls the 3 biggest competitiors

Maya
3D Studio
Motion Builder
Mud Box


And of course Softimage...
The only markets they do not yet control are:

Desktop Graphics & Publishing (Adobe, Microsoft)
Web Design*(Adobe, Microsoft)
Application Programming (Microsoft, etc)
Non Linear Editing (Pinnacle, Avid, Apple & Sony etc)

Is Alias Studio really that prevalent in ID now? Back when I was doing Mech Engineering, most of the ID guys either used Solidworks directly, or Rhino. In fact Rhino was pretty much the standard and what most Universities taught them to use and our biggest issue(s) (and most design houses issues) were staying true to the Rhino surface design when the engineering was being done (importing or recreating the surfaces). This also points out an area that AutoDesk IMO hasn't done as well, despite being one of the first to market (mechanical engineering design). As far as I know that part of the market is pretty much dominated by Solidworks and Pro/Engineer, with some using the crappy Mechanical Desktop and/or AD Inventor. Pretty much every Monster job offer I get emailed to me, past and present, has Solidworks and/or ProE as the requirement, despite the fact that I have AutoCAD, Mech. Desk, and Inventor listed in my expertise/search criteria.

Not to argue. I think your points are completely valid. I'm just curious if Alias Studio has really taken over the market now, 8 years later.
Anyone doing ID for a large or small firm that sees a lot of Alias Studio in use and/or another Autodesk product?

bobakabob
10-27-2008, 05:47 PM
Before we get off track..(

Well I just wonder were we stand in terms of our future. Not only for Lightwave, but for ANYONE trying to do graphics of any sort with a computer..

Lets think about it..

One company effectively controls most of the computer graphics market.

It cannot be downplayed how monumental this purchase is for our industry.
In effect we have one player now controlling the destiny of the most Entertainment graphics industry an frankly , if history is any indicator, they really want to become the ONLY player in the world of graphics
As a company Autodesk, has expanded in the past 10 years into a force that DOMINATES all the markets they enter. Right now they control Architectural Design, Industrial Design & now the Gaming/ Film & Television markets.

They still don't control the Web Design, Application Programming* & the Video market. But that might be in the development stages...


What this means for us is that if this market integration continues you will have to deal with ONE company , Autodesk, to (as they say) make a buck...

Is it right for ONE company to have that much power over ALL the computer graphics markets?

This means that one player an dictate terms to other companies and set up industry wide standards that benefit them

They could drop support on any 2d/3d format they wish, and move to proprietary formats for all 3d work. Not only that, if they wish now they could now establish subscription certification programs to establish that you can use their software.

Case in point

Architectural DesignAutoCAD*is the standard of that industry.
Industrilal Design
AliasStudio.(AKA studio tools)
Gaming/ Film & Television
One company, thanks to wise adquisitions, now controls the 3 biggest competitiors

Maya
3D Studio
Motion Builder
Mud Box


And of course Softimage...
The only markets they do not yet control are:

Desktop Graphics & Publishing (Adobe, Microsoft)
Web Design*(Adobe, Microsoft)
Application Programming (Microsoft, etc)
Non Linear Editing (Pinnacle, Avid, Apple & Sony etc)

Nicely summarised Roberto. Autodrek now monopolise the 3D industry. Their fears of XSI's growing user base and reputation hurting sales of Max and Maya are now over - they can neuter the program or put it in development limbo. One thing's for sure... there's now no longer any real urgency to innovate with any of them as most of the competition's gone.

Hard to see how Autoswivelchair can converge the progs into one super app, but they'll surely work on streamlining interopability and freeze out the remaining competitors (Maxon, Newtek) as best they can. Once that's accomplished they can start rationalising.

A shame Adobe missed out on a takeover. I'm no fan of the company - for years in the UK we've been paying twice as much for their software as in the States - but 3D Wars would have continued to have been interesting and probably bad for Newtek and Luxology. Everyone could see XSI had the potential to be a Max and Maya killer and if reasonably priced would clean up elsewhere. Now there's just a black cloud and a feeling of malaise that will linger over the industry for years.

I was learning XSI as a CA animation complement to Lightwave and loved it. Buying into XSI will probably just be prohibitive. Now I'll probably switch to Messiah and start giving Blender more attention. The big three will be out of reach for most freelancers and hobbyists.

It feels like the mid 90s all over. Lightwave has always been the plucky underdog bringing 3D to ground level. Kudos to Newtek for working so hard to produce such a good value quality program. I really hope they take the gloves off with development and marketing and persuade more of the disillusioned to return to the fold.

hrgiger
10-27-2008, 07:18 PM
Well, I have several months left of free updates and maintenance on the XSI contract I bought so I'll reserve judgment other then to say I don't think this is going to be good for anyone except Autodesk. I just feel kind of deflated when I think about continuing to learn XSI when I'm so unsure if it will even be the same or better application in a year or two. Honestly, I'm hoping that Lightwave 10 will address some of the longstanding core issues that made me want to look at another character animation alternative in the first place. While there are some missing features, most of it is how parts of Lightwave fail to communicate with other key parts of the program. Opening up Layout to be able to use key modeling functions (such as vertex info/manipulation and weight painting) would be a good first step. People have this idea that Lightwave 10 is going to be integrated but I think that may be too optimistic, we'll just have to wait and see.

bobakabob
10-27-2008, 07:40 PM
Opening up Layout to be able to use key modeling functions (such as vertex info/manipulation and weight painting) would be a good first step. People have this idea that Lightwave 10 is going to be integrated but I think that may be too optimistic, we'll just have to wait and see.

Vertex manipulation / weight painting in Layout would be rather good... but how soon is now? Perhaps one far flung day it will happen. We can but hope.

Meantime Messiah is looking more and more appealing as a complement to CA in Lightwave. Spent some time with the demo a while back and loved it (before being seduced by XSI). No weights but the bones are so ridiculously quick and intuitive they're telepathic.

Celshader
10-27-2008, 07:46 PM
Going back to AD aquiring Max, then Maya, XSI, MotionBuilder, Mudbox etc what have they stripped and discontinued? Im curious if they actually have done this.

Autodesk acquired the LightScape render engine in late 1997 (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-84221710.html), then discontinued it in January of 2003 (http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/2769-lightscape-retired.html).

I did a Google search for "Autodesk acquired discontinued" and found a few more candidates:

QuickCAD (http://www.woodbin.com/docs/articles/obsolete_ww_software.htm) -- acquired by Autodesk in 1997, discontinued several years later.

RealViz StoryViz (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?id=11247884&siteID=123112) -- discontinued after Autodesk acquired RealViz in 2008. From the same press release: "Matchmover, Retimer and VTour will no longer be available as standalone products; core technology from these REALVIZ products will be integrated into future versions of Autodesk’s existing products..." <-- so three products were stripped for parts and then discontinued.

Solid Dynamics (http://worldcadaccess.typepad.com/blog/2005/08/autodesk_acquir.html) -- Autodesk integrated the technology into Autodesk Inventor and killed the standalone and plug-in versions of the software.

bobakabob
10-27-2008, 07:54 PM
Interesting... and the small print of recent press releases couldn't be more (rather amusingly) non committal...

The documents, information and references included on this page, including the video presentation, contain forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties, including statements regarding our acquisition of Softimage, the impact of the acquisition on our product offerings and the performance of our business, and the impact of our combined product capabilities. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially include the following: difficulties or delays encountered in closing and integrating Softimage’s businesses; whether certain market segments grow as anticipated; the inability to realize the anticipated benefits of acquisitions; the competitive environment in the software industry and competitive responses to the acquisition; and whether Autodesk can successfully develop new products or modify existing products and the degree to which these gain market acceptance.

We caution you that such statements reflect our best judgment based on factors currently known to us, and that actual events or results could differ materially.

mosconariz
10-27-2008, 09:58 PM
A good place to curse and shout:

I HATE AUTODESK.blogspot.com (http://ihateautodesk.blogspot.com/)

cresshead
10-28-2008, 06:09 AM
i like autodesk 3dsmax!:D

wacom
10-30-2008, 02:09 PM
Well let me just say that Newtek should think outside the box a bit, but there are some areas that might seem like pure catch up, but how else would they do it?

History stacks and procedural work flows? Can anyone find some great alien way of doing otherwise and getting the same results? It would require different human brains, different programming, different computers.

That said- I think developing a stack and or some procedural work flows in LW would relieve the developer from having to field every feature request under the sky and return some of the responsibility to the user base- where IMHO in this day and age it belongs. There are so many unnecessary little widget plugins and such in LW that don't connect or speak to each other that it's just creating a soup of half back solutions. Most of these are from users who beg for a feature in LW that shouldn't have to be created by NewTek.

Where NewTek can come in is always being innovative towards user work flow- so that the user can create these tools quickly and share them easily. No company has in any way perfected that aspect yet by any stretch of the imagination. NewTek seems to understand simplicity with the user in mind- so I think they have a good shot at something like this.

Look at it this way- there are two basic kinds of 3D users- problem solvers and whiners with feature lust. Granted it's a gradient, but when the developer has to cater to only one side we ALL lose- even worse if they're in the middle all the time. So let the problem solvers fix 90% of the problems for them AND the whiners as best as we can and let them do the other hard 10% that only focused development resources can do.

I see no reason we can't have a UGC app in the guts and a head in the sand exterior. How many people drive cars everyday but know what goes on under the hood or wants to tinker with it? If you need your car fixed you don't have to drive all the way to the Ford or Toyota factory- you go to a mechanic.

I want LW 10 to be open enough to allow some mechanics in who don't have a PHD in "car" engineering!

Bog
10-30-2008, 02:37 PM
History stacks and procedural work flows? Can anyone find some great alien way of doing otherwise and getting the same results? It would require different human brains, different programming, different computers.

Sure I can. Make every operation a node. Then, you can go back through your modelling-process node-tree, and sidestep outside to insert another node branch, nonlinearly altering your geometry data from that locale. Yes, it'd be data-rich and yes, you could shoot your own foot off pretty easily, but that's one way to do things other than the standard linear stack or procedural approach. Also, make all the node input values editable.

It's not easy, but it could be bloody interesting. Just for the sake of argument.

wacom
10-30-2008, 04:52 PM
Sure I can. Make every operation a node. Then, you can go back through your modelling-process node-tree, and sidestep outside to insert another node branch, nonlinearly altering your geometry data from that locale. Yes, it'd be data-rich and yes, you could shoot your own foot off pretty easily, but that's one way to do things other than the standard linear stack or procedural approach. Also, make all the node input values editable.

It's not easy, but it could be bloody interesting. Just for the sake of argument.

Uh- so like houdini, ICE and Xpresso to some degree and...

Did you read my post? There is nothing you've said that isn't already in some software packages.

You're basically describing procedural nodes with a stack overlay or merged trees no mater how you visualize it because there DOES have to be an order at the end- unless you want to make copies/duplicates/alternates.

You can do it with nodes, you can do it with a stack to some degree, and you can just dive in and do it with code OR do all of them- but in the end you have to feed one end into another and have a result.

Almost all of these applications let you pass info to a "user node" as well to share things between totally different objects, models, and even scenes. All with out writing code (though in a way your just doing it visually).

So you can your computer can think in multi-dimensions or something?

Go eat a cheese steak and think about it cause there is only "with or without" in this case!

Bog
10-30-2008, 04:55 PM
Did you read my post? There is nothing you've said that isn't already in some software packages.

Perhaps not as well as I could have, to be honest. Sorry. I thought I had thought of something more stimulating than a linear stack, but if you disagree, then I'm always willing to be wrong - I learn from it.


So you can your computer can think in multi-dimensions or something?

Yes, of course it can. It just has to compact them down to a 2D display plane. Same as yours. The fun bit is - how do to represent and interact with that multidimensional processing? ;)

Bog
10-30-2008, 05:01 PM
Look at it this way- there are two basic kinds of 3D users- problem solvers and whiners with feature lust. Granted it's a gradient, but when the developer has to cater to only one side we ALL lose- even worse if they're in the middle all the time. So let the problem solvers fix 90% of the problems for them AND the whiners as best as we can and let them do the other hard 10% that only focused development resources can do.

Having just re-read what you posted a little more carefully....

*Sweeps Wacom up into a hug and spins him/her around a couple of times*

You said it. Sing it from the mountain. If a person doesn't want to work hard, and think hard, then 3D is not for them.

Hooraw.

robertoortiz
10-30-2008, 05:26 PM
Uh- so like houdini, ICE and Xpresso to some degree and...

Did you read my post? There is nothing you've said that isn't already in some software packages.

You're basically describing procedural nodes with a stack overlay or merged trees no mater how you visualize it because there DOES have to be an order at the end- unless you want to make copies/duplicates/alternates.

You can do it with nodes, you can do it with a stack to some degree, and you can just dive in and do it with code OR do all of them- but in the end you have to feed one end into another and have a result.!

Another thing that would be cool is to allow the ability to open up these
nodes to third party scripting languages like Python...

wacom
10-30-2008, 08:35 PM
Another thing that would be cool is to allow the ability to open up these
nodes to third party scripting languages like Python...

The pros to this are flexibility- the cons are speed as far as I know (in terms of playback etc). Still, I was thinking just the other night- why not have two kinds of "official" nodes from Newtek- hard coded and scriptable that on the outside- sans some color and symbol/letter designation (like scalar.s for script or scalar.p for python script or scalar.c for C coded).

If you were working normally, with low level nodes, there would be very little reason to ever script, so normally you'd work in the hard coded ones. Then you hit a snag and a TD or someone needs to script them- then you can convert your tree over to a scriptable tree on the fly (but maybe not back again) and enter and tweak any node you wish and save it as a preset.

Another thought I had is- what about a mix? I know very little about how this would really work- but here goes: use them together- with each one running each code on an independent thread. It would be slower than pure hard coded nodes, but faster than just scripted ones. So it would be like a hand off of variables to each node- in between the numerical data would flow- but inside it would be computed by its respective format.

Maybe I'm way off on this though or maybe it's already done. I have no idea- but I can't imagine it gets much more flexible than that.


Softimage's idea was to make them all very low level- so that they are basically almost like lines of hard code. With those you form compounds- which look like nodes, but inside are complex- scripted nodes if you would. The beauty to this is, if you know basic programing logic, then there is no need to learn a language. It's like writing working pseudo code.

Of coarse you'd want to make every parameter in the node animateable though- preferably with curves etc. for even more flexibility...

Netvudu
10-30-2008, 10:07 PM
Don´t wanna be repetitive but you are describing exactly Houdini VEX operators in VOPs...

...it´s so hard to be truly original....

Iaian7
10-31-2008, 09:31 AM
Don´t wanna be repetitive but you are describing exactly Houdini VEX operators in VOPs...

...it´s so hard to be truly original....

Yeah, it is pretty hard to be truly original... though I doubt the winner is the one who does it first, but the one who does it best. Trite, sure, but true, no?

From my very limited perspective? One of Lightwave's biggest assets is the nodal texture and displacement editors. I can't think of a better way for Lightwave to improve, than to expand this to the entire system. It's one of the single biggest reasons I like Lightwave, beyond the basics of an easy modeler, speedy turn around, quality native renderer, and of course, price. :D Ok, so there's lots of big reasons I use Lightwave... but...

I was ready to buy Softimage, to finally use a system that implements nodes at a fundamental level, with seemingly enterprise-level development and a high-end platform, for lack of better terms. Obviously this thread addresses a key point here; I'm not about to buy into the Autodesk empire. Not because I have "principles", but because it's simply fiscally irresponsible for smaller studios and individuals such as myself.

I'd like to think that, despite the difference in price, Lightwave can, and should be able to, compete with what has become the triple juggernaut. I'm sure that's Newtek's goal as well.

On my laundry list? Nodal displacement should be integrated closer to the core of modeler, and the same goes for subdivision order, and every other modifier. Textures should include vector displacement, both before and/or after subdivision, saved as part of the model, and seamlessly integrated with Layout, where cloth dynamics, bones, and other modifiers should be mixed at will, in any order. I guess that's asking for a single app, something I haven't pushed for in the past, but something I'm hoping for more and more, if this is the sort of thing that comes of the union.

Lightwave is, in a broad sense, crippled by features not being able to talk to each other. Cloth dynamics, surface following, textured displacement, subdivision... all of this should be able to be mixed and matched on a level that's impossible in many systems (which is why XSI and Houdini are so important to the industry). In my opinion, Lightwave X should make this simple, fundamental. Well, as simple as it is to build a complex nodal texture already! As has been pointed out before, 3D isn't easy - it's not an applications job to make art into an automatic procedure. The purpose here is to give the artist the best possible tools that work together in a logical, seamless, fluid way.

This is just my take on it. Animators, architects, illustrators, hobbyists... we will all have different, and very valid, perspectives.

wacom
11-02-2008, 11:20 PM
Don´t wanna be repetitive but you are describing exactly Houdini VEX operators in VOPs...

...it´s so hard to be truly original....

Well ya got me!

Check this out- MAX users talking trash about...MAX...then getting all depressed when they find out AD buys SI- cause they think AD is going to stop development on XSI just like they did MAX. They were depending on XSI to save their patooties!

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/15123/P0/

Looks like there are a few MAX users without their head in the sand on this after all!

Have fun finding any thread like that on an XSI forum Cresshead! See you in the borg cube...

cresshead
11-03-2008, 05:35 AM
Well ya got me!



Have fun finding any thread like that on an XSI forum Cresshead! See you in the borg cube...

resistance is futile, join the collective:D
we are one, we are the 'autodesk'

there's a borg view cube on it's way to you now...embrace..be one with us.:thumbsup:

jasonwestmas
11-03-2008, 07:27 AM
Yeah, it is pretty hard to be truly original... though I doubt the winner is the one who does it first, but the one who does it best. Trite, sure, but true, no?



Heeeya! Got that right. :)

Netvudu
11-03-2008, 07:29 AM
LMAO....that was great, cresshead

jasonwestmas
11-03-2008, 07:40 AM
resistance is futile, join the collective:D
we are one, we are the 'autodesk'

there's a borg view cube on it's way to you now...embrace..be one with us.:thumbsup:

I'm more "rogue squadron" but without the director.

cresshead
11-03-2008, 12:54 PM
now what have i done!:D

cresshead
11-03-2008, 01:14 PM
adjusted the black [was on rubbish monitor]

http://www.cresshead.com/blog/auto_borg.jpg

jasonwestmas
11-03-2008, 02:57 PM
I knew max was that ugly the moment I opened her up! :D

cresshead
11-03-2008, 04:14 PM
actally that's 'maya'..'max' is her elder brother...

jasonwestmas
11-03-2008, 04:44 PM
Oh I thought it was Max for Maxine. Geeze I was way off!