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UbiGuy
10-23-2008, 03:11 PM
Anyone hear this rumor..?

ctuller
10-23-2008, 03:17 PM
I think it's fact, not rumor.
http://community.softimage.com/showthread.php?t=2835

artstorm
10-23-2008, 03:17 PM
Yes, it's fact. http://www.autodesk.com/softimage

UbiGuy
10-23-2008, 03:24 PM
Good luck to newtek, houdini, cinema4D...

Bookman
10-23-2008, 03:31 PM
all this means really is that Newtek, and the C4D guys better step up because now all the big boys are under one roof. All that technology will eventully be cross platform between those apps. Which Imho is both good and a bad thing.

Also this probably means that all that tech will be rolled into Max. :)

tischbein3
10-23-2008, 03:32 PM
Good luck to newtek, houdini, cinema4D...

whats the ... for ?

spigolo
10-23-2008, 03:38 PM
we have to fight against this monopoly..
A reason more to use lightwave houdini modo..and cinema.

gerry_g
10-23-2008, 03:39 PM
whats the ... for ?

Looooooow Keeeeyboard Baaaaaaatery................

Pavlov
10-23-2008, 03:41 PM
I agree with spigolo.
It's harder to stitch with smaller companies now, but going otherwise will only spread a true cancer of this industry. Th eday Autodesk will run out of business i will make a very large party.

Paolo

WilliamVaughan
10-23-2008, 03:43 PM
Interesting times we live in...the 3d market is changing daily

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 03:45 PM
Will this affect Newtek?

3DGFXStudios
10-23-2008, 03:47 PM
Who thinks this is a bad thing? I do!

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 03:48 PM
Pardon my ignorance but is Maya apart of this buyout?

ctuller
10-23-2008, 03:51 PM
Who thinks this is a bad thing? I do!

Bad for Softimage customer support (or it's slide in quality now that it's Autodesk CS)? yeah.
Although maybe this will get XSI onto OSX.

ctuller
10-23-2008, 03:53 PM
Pardon my ignorance but is Maya apart of this buyout?

Autodesk already owns Maya. Now they own the big 3 (XSI, Maya, 3DS)

jin choung
10-23-2008, 03:53 PM
maya belongs to autodesk so they're involved in that they're the buying party.

jin

Wickster
10-23-2008, 03:54 PM
Pardon my ignorance but is Maya apart of this buyout?

Autodesk now own Maya, Max and XSI.

Now, if NT can post here and say they're not selling off LW to another company then I can go on my merry way.

(I'm still in shock and denial by the way.)

Matt
10-23-2008, 03:56 PM
This is not a good thing, AutoDesk are fast becoming a monopoly in the 3D market. When will they be happy, when they own ALL the competition?

I imagine they bought XSI so they could get their greedy mitts on ICE.

Dirk
10-23-2008, 03:57 PM
omg.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 03:59 PM
and again, newtek is privately owned so it can't be bought out unless they go willingly. but to be honest, i think they would consider the likes of lw and c4d small potatoes anyway.

but it does make an 800lb gorilla competitor a 1200lb gorilla competitor.

that's a LOT of market and mindshare.

jin

p.s. actually, what might have done it is ICE. it's next gen architecture borrowed from houdini (far AHEAD of its time) but buying xsi obviates the need to buy sidefx....

geothefaust
10-23-2008, 04:04 PM
Yeah, it truly does. Especially considering XSI/ICE is much easier to use then Houdini and you can achieve some very similar effects...

pixeltek
10-23-2008, 04:05 PM
I guess by 2020, Siggraph will have just a single gigantic 'superbooth' for participating 3D modelling and animation software companies, i.e. one: Autodesk...Oh wait! There will be a small booth for MS with Truespace represented. ;-D

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 04:08 PM
I don't like all these buyouts. In these tough times, we all need at least a few constants in this world. The only constant that I can depend on is nice hot coffee in the morning. It doesn't change. It's just there. I hope Newtek stays for a very long time and doesn't buy in to this buyout mess.

pixeltek
10-23-2008, 04:08 PM
The full text:

Dear Softimage Customer,

We are pleased to announce that Autodesk and Avid Technology have signed a definitive agreement for Autodesk to acquire substantially all of the assets of Softimage, a Canadian subsidiary of Avid Technology. We are excited by this opportunity to join forces, combining two strong teams into a world-class center for computer graphics software research and development.

Both Softimage and Autodesk Media & Entertainment are headquartered in Montreal, Canada. Softimage has been developing state-of-the-art 3D technology for more than 20 years. Its products are recognized as best-of-breed in the entertainment industry. With nine million users, Autodesk is a world leader in 2D and 3D design software for the media and entertainment, manufacturing, building and construction markets.

Softimage’s technology complements Autodesk’s entertainment products. Many film, television and game pipelines include products from both companies. Adding Softimage products and technology to Autodesk’s entertainment product line will allow us to offer you more complete and efficient workflows.

Upon completion of the acquisition, you will still be able to choose your favorite 3D modeling, animation and rendering solution – whether it is SOFTIMAGE®|XSI®, Autodesk® 3ds Max® or Autodesk Maya® software. We intend to continue driving innovation in all three products. Following close, we will also focus on improving interoperability through the Autodesk® FBX® software 3D data exchange solution to help improve your production efficiency when working with multiple Autodesk applications.

We are also excited by the proposed addition of Softimage talent and technology to Autodesk Media & Entertainment, as it will accelerate the work of our newly formed Games Technology Group, which includes technologies such as Autodesk® HumanIK® and Autodesk® Kynapse® software. The group’s purpose is to deliver the next-generation of real-time, interactive 3D authoring tools for games, film and television.

Autodesk will acquire and plans to continue developing the following Softimage products:
• SOFTIMAGE|XSI, including XSI Essentials, XSI Advanced, XSI Academic, XSI Mod Tool and the XSI software development kit (SDK). XSI offers a complete 3D modeling, animation, rendering and development environment.
• SOFTIMAGE®|Face Robot® software, which enables the creation of life-like human facial animation quickly and easily.
• SOFTIMAGE®|Cat ™, an advanced character animation system that is a plug-in for Autodesk 3ds Max software. It is intended that SOFTIMAGE|Cat will be integrated into the 3ds Max product line.
• SOFTIMAGE®|Crosswalk, an interoperability solution, is intended to be integrated with Autodesk’s interoperability technology.

The acquisition is expected to close in the next month. Until that time, Autodesk and Softimage will continue operating independently. Please continue using your existing contacts for sales, services and support. We will keep you updated on this acquisition, both directly and online at www.autodesk.com/softimage.

We look forward to welcoming you to the combined family and thank you for your business.

Sincerely,
....
Signed by the two muckety-mucks of the two companies.

Nicolas Jordan
10-23-2008, 04:10 PM
I guess by 2020, Siggraph will have just a single gigantic 'superbooth' for participating 3D modelling and animation software companies, i.e. one: Autodesk...Oh wait! There will be a small booth for MS with Truespace represented. ;-D

They will have to rename Siggraph to Autograph. :D

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 04:11 PM
A combined family or a greedy undertow?

Cageman
10-23-2008, 04:12 PM
Wow...

Didn't see this coming at all... what the heck?

I'm not sure if this is good or bad, and if so..for who? Good for Autodesk and bad for the few who remains (NT, Maxon, Pixologic, Luxology and SideFX)? Or is it the other way around?

In terms of technology, it's certanly a good thing for Autodesk, but looking at the upgrade policy of Autodesk, I'm not sure that owners of XSI will be that happy though?

I don't see this affecting the current LW market that much though.

Dirk
10-23-2008, 04:19 PM
"SAN RAFAEL, Calif., Oct. 23 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Autodesk, Inc. (NASDAQ: ADSK) and Avid Technology, Inc. (NASDAQ: AVID), announced that they have signed a definitive agreement for Autodesk to acquire substantially all of the assets of Avid's Softimage business unit for approximately $35 million."

http://pressreleases.autodesk.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=485%3C%2Ftd%3E



$35 million?

Adrian Lopez
10-23-2008, 04:21 PM
XSI just became a lot less attractive.

geothefaust
10-23-2008, 04:22 PM
XSI owners I'm sure a pretty pissed off. In fact I talked to one of them earlier, lol. He's going to be switching back to LW in the VERY NEAR future. Whatismore, prospective users of XSI7 such as myself, are no longer interested in supporting such a vile company. Thanks AD, but no thanks.


As for it being good for the rest of the companies. I guess it really depends. Fortunately, I think it's a good thing for NT, because a lot of people really do NOT like AD, and would rather use something that's not owned by a mean old giant. Hence the reason that they would be using XSI, or another program like LW. Now that XSI is part of the mean old giant, LW is on top competing with C4D. So really, where to go? C4D is bloated with is pricing and features (depending on the package you want...). I think LW tops it with it's price and features.

hunter
10-23-2008, 04:23 PM
I wondered why Softimage did away with Foundation. Now we know. :thumbsdow

parm
10-23-2008, 04:23 PM
Although maybe this will get XSI onto OSX.

Not much chance of that. Autodesk have never ported anything to the Mac OS.

Matt
10-23-2008, 04:23 PM
I think this kinda sums it up quite nicely! :D

virtualcomposer
10-23-2008, 04:25 PM
I think this kinda sums it up quite nicely! :D

Yes, but Newtek has a harpoon for that shark. :D:D:D

JamesCurtis
10-23-2008, 04:26 PM
Less attractive for sure!!!

I think Autodesk is BLOATED!!!

pixeltek
10-23-2008, 04:28 PM
Nicolas...very funny!!! :D

Wickster
10-23-2008, 04:37 PM
And the world stops.

What needs to happen now is NewTek releases LW 9.5.1. And announces the features for the upcoming LWX. It will serve to purposes, one is to get this disturbing image of the monopoly out of my head. The second is to remind people that there is another choice for 3D applications.

I mean can you imagine all the confused modeler/animator souls out there today? There are probably hundreds of them all curled up in a corner rocking back and forth whispering "What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do?" religiously. So NT better step up announce something. That something could just be the small light that might get LightWave noticed among those who only believe that there are only 3 major 3D apps.

That's my opinion on this matter. Now I'm gonna take a walk, when I come back I want the world all nice and smiley again. lol.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 04:38 PM
Not much chance of that. Autodesk have never ported anything to the Mac OS.

???

maya!

jin

Lightwolf
10-23-2008, 04:40 PM
maya!

Was ported before AD snatched them up, the same is true for the apps that eventually became Combustion.

Cheers,
Mike

3DGFXStudios
10-23-2008, 04:41 PM
Yes, but Newtek has a harpoon for that shark. :D:D:D

yea SHOOT IT!!!! :2guns:

Titus
10-23-2008, 04:46 PM
NewTek staff surely should feel like these poor folks of the The Warriors movie.

Titus
10-23-2008, 04:57 PM
This is not a good thing, AutoDesk are fast becoming a monopoly in the 3D market. When will they be happy, when they own ALL the competition?

AD is gonna collapse in one way or another.

Wickster
10-23-2008, 05:02 PM
Speaking of AutoDesk's ICE, NewTek should reveal "LightWave FIRE" aka LightWave's Fully Interactive Re-scripting Engine.

I don't know what it will do but it sounds awefully cool. :D

COBRASoft
10-23-2008, 05:04 PM
Hey all,

Actually, AD is doing the same as MS did for years: buying knowledge from other, smaller companies.

Is this good or bad? In my opinion it has 2 sides. Somehow the big fish becomes bigger, so their users benefit from it. On the other hand this is bad, because it will kill the freedom and imagination of the developers/architects somehow.

I hope (and think) this is a good thing for Newtek, because I don't think any existing LW customer will go for XSI now just because they've become AD. The other story is more lickely to happen. XSI will lose customers because they became AD. It is up to Newtek to get those customers on their side (again)...

Greetings,
Sigurd

alvin_cgi
10-23-2008, 05:08 PM
Yeah… upgrade policy of Autodesk is really sucks. They interested in your money more than any things else, afaik, if you skip one or two versions, then likely you will need to pay a heavy penalty price for skipping, like paying full price upgrade to current version, they are now have new upgrades every 6 months(Max and Maya) if I'm right, that really give you no option but to buy the maintenance to stay on latest, and the worst is that you are “not” allow to transfer license freely as you can on LW.
I really hope this is not happen to XSI... but I know I am going to disappointed anyway... :thumbsdow

[QUOTE=Cageman;770527]In terms of technology, it's certanly a good thing for Autodesk, but looking at the upgrade policy of Autodesk, I'm not sure that owners of XSI will be that happy though?QUOTE]

Lightwolf
10-23-2008, 05:09 PM
Speaking of AutoDesk's ICE, NewTek should reveal "LightWave FIRE" aka LightWave's Fully Interactive Re-scripting Engine.
ADs got all them already (as a legacy from discreet): Fire, Stone, Inferno, Flint, Smoke, Combustion...

Cheers,
Mike

Bookman
10-23-2008, 05:12 PM
Hey all,

Actually, AD is doing the same as MS did for years: buying knowledge from other, smaller companies.

Is this good or bad? In my opinion it has 2 sides. Somehow the big fish becomes bigger, so their users benefit from it. On the other hand this is bad, because it will kill the freedom and imagination of the developers/architects somehow.

I hope (and think) this is a good thing for Newtek, because I don't think any existing LW customer will go for XSI now just because they've become AD. The other story is more lickely to happen. XSI will lose customers because they became AD. It is up to Newtek to get those customers on their side (again)...

Greetings,
Sigurd

I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that XSI has some of the very best off the shelf technology. Better than Maya in most reguards IMHO, and while they for the time being will most likely keep it all seperate they will now be able to take everything that made XSI good and port it over to Max and Maya.

So if anything it will make all of those apps more attractive to people. I hope this lights a fire under some people to help LW development become much stronger as we enter the next cycle of LW development.

Titus
10-23-2008, 05:16 PM
I hope (and think) this is a good thing for Newtek, because I don't think any existing LW customer will go for XSI now just because they've become AD.

Well, I'm in the process of being a XSI user and I doubt this will change it.

toonafish
10-23-2008, 05:18 PM
Somehow the big fish becomes bigger, so their users benefit from it. On the other hand this is bad, because it will kill the freedom and imagination of the developers/architects somehow.


I think it will be good for shareholders and bad for users and the market...as usual.

archijam
10-23-2008, 05:19 PM
I wonder what this might mean for the (free) modtool...

Surely one of the three packages is going to suffer some lightscape-isation, and soon.

Lightwolf
10-23-2008, 05:22 PM
I wonder what this might mean for the (free) modtool...
If the press release is anything to go by, that'll probably be the main focus for XSI in the future, games. *shrugs* What a waste, but it's a huge market.

Cheers,
Mike

Wickster
10-23-2008, 05:23 PM
ADs got all them already (as a legacy from discreet): Fire, Stone, Inferno, Flint, Smoke, Combustion...

Cheers,
Mike

Darn, well there's still EARTH, WIND and ... SKY.

If all else fails there' always the "LightWave NORRIS"

New Organic Relativity and Rendering Interactive Scripting. :)

Matt
10-23-2008, 05:24 PM
This whole sad affair makes me even more glad I'm a LightWave user, I somehow feel like a rebel, different from the rest of the sheep!

:)

Matt
10-23-2008, 05:37 PM
Hehe! :D

jin choung
10-23-2008, 05:59 PM
i don't think this is necessarily bad.

in terms of STANDARDS, it can only be good actually and accelerate adoption of such.

xsi and houdini BOTH took huge cues from the maya playbook and so it's easier for most people to use multiple programs because of it. some of max's controls have been conformed to maya-like too. now with the big 3 under one roof, and with autodesk's stated plans revealing that they want to emphasize compatibility, there will likely form some extremely strong standards.

crosswalk will be an EXCELLENT centerpiece for crosstalk.

i want 3d apps to be like cars. sure there are different bells and whistles and certainly there are tremendous differences from car to car but the essential usability stuff is all the same. and much of what's different is styling or literally under the hood.

jin

hrgiger
10-23-2008, 06:08 PM
Well, I refuse to support Autodesk so it looks like I just became a primary Lightwave user again.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 06:22 PM
oh yeah... i refuse to support autodesk in terms of money!

ridiculously expensive in terms of cost of ownership.

jin

Mrjack
10-23-2008, 06:37 PM
Hehe! :D

that wil be cool if newTek Buy Autodesk...... Stop the massacre
evreybody here plz make donation to buy autodesk :D

Dexter2999
10-23-2008, 06:44 PM
Seems like owning the top three apps, gives them huge leverage with a company like say Realflow. They could begin to muscle them with exclusivity deals like MS did with Xbox. Not saying they will but they could.

I hope I am wrong, but I get a sick feeling from the whole thing. It just seems bad for a company this big to become bigger.

kfinla
10-23-2008, 07:14 PM
Alias ported Maya to OSX.. not autodesk.. autodesk just accuired alias and an OSX version of maya with it, i belive it was the same with Kaydara and Motionbuilder.. u dont see a MAX for OSX.. or even a 64 bit OSX maya.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-23-2008, 07:16 PM
This is the worst industry news ever. There is essentially no competition to drive innovation and features, other than Lux and Newtek.

If Soft was sold for 35 million then their sales must have been abysmal.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 07:17 PM
Seems like owning the top three apps, gives them huge leverage with a company like say Realflow. They could begin to muscle them with exclusivity deals like MS did with Xbox. Not saying they will but they could.

I hope I am wrong, but I get a sick feeling from the whole thing. It just seems bad for a company this big to become bigger.

yeah but would they really NEED to?

you usually muscle for exclusivity in order to increase marketshare and desirability of your product but autodesk simply doesn't need to do that.

the big 3 have nothing to fear from what remains. it's kinda like saying that the DS and PSP are gonna throw their weight around to keep the WONDERSWAN from coming up in the world.

jin

jin choung
10-23-2008, 07:18 PM
This is the worst industry news ever. There is essentially no competition to drive innovation and features, other than Lux and Newtek.

If Soft was sold for 35 million then their sales must have been abysmal.

and sidefx and maxon and of course blender foundation - and all the r&d depts of vfx companies like ilm, dd, mpc, framestore, and of course pixar.

3d market is different than other sectors - many features come not merely from competition with other products in field but through production needs. and that's never gonna lack.

innovation will not flounder.


jin

jin choung
10-23-2008, 07:22 PM
Alias ported Maya to OSX.. not autodesk.. autodesk just accuired alias and an OSX version of maya with it, i belive it was the same with Kaydara and Motionbuilder.. u dont see a MAX for OSX.. or even a 64 bit OSX maya.

to you and lightwolf,

gotcha... i see what you're saying now.

jin

Chris S. (Fez)
10-23-2008, 07:39 PM
and sidefx and maxon and of course blender foundation - and all the r&d depts of vfx companies like ilm, dd, mpc, framestore, and of course pixar.

3d market is different than other sectors - many features come not merely from competition with other products in field but through production needs. and that's never gonna lack.

innovation will not flounder.


jin

Man, I don't know. Sidefx and maxon strike me as fringe players in the off-the-shelf market. I'd be amazed if their combined market share was more than 1 %. AD buying Soft is a bit more like Microsoft swallowing Apple.

Sure, production will continue to drive innovation, as ever, but I still can't help but think AD is going to feel compelled to take it easy in terms of R&D. I mean, any urgency they might have been feeling to combat those Maxed Out campaigns has all but been doused...

kfinla
10-23-2008, 07:48 PM
Well I remember when Alias was bought.. everyone expected soem super app to succeed MAX and Maya.. it has never come.. and the same talk comes up again now with XSI in their pocket. I think XSI will remaind for a few more versions yet.. but i guess my pipedream of there ever being an OSX version even more crazy..

ADSK is making money by have 2, now 3 times the software to sell and subscriptions to administer. If some uber app comes it will have to cost what all 3 currently do to match the income generated.. ofcourse they could also ax 2/3 of all the developers making it.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 08:05 PM
Man, I don't know. Sidefx and maxon strike me as fringe players in the off-the-shelf market. I'd be amazed if their combined market share was more than 1 %. AD buying Soft is a bit more like Microsoft swallowing Apple.

Sure, production will continue to drive innovation, as ever, but I still can't help but think AD is going to feel compelled to take it easy in terms of R&D. I mean, any urgency they might have been feeling to combat those Maxed Out campaigns has all but been doused...

hahaha,

everybody that's LEFT is a fringe player!

anyway, i'm convinced production will drive innovation. big production companies like making their own proprietary sh1t anyway so AD can't be goin' around giving them an excuse.

i've got no worries in regards to this. and in terms of price, none of those products were in my "buy" range anyway so for me, the lack of competition for price is a moot issue.

jin

IMI
10-23-2008, 08:19 PM
evreybody here plz make donation to buy autodesk :D

Maybe we can convince Congress that Autodesk needs a bailout and then the US Government can buy Autodesk. It would be dead in a week after that.

Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

COBRASoft
10-23-2008, 08:22 PM
The reactions here seem all good/bad and all version inbetween :)

And we are all LW users somehow. I wonder if other forums have a similar thread going on and what they think about it... Let's say the XSI users themselves. Lucky NT, because they have at least 1 LW user back... Who's next?

Welcome back hrgiger :thumbsup:

Dexter2999
10-23-2008, 08:22 PM
When AD bought Maya the only thing I expected was an improved render engine for AutoCAD.

And there is also nothing that says the divisions will actually work together. Corporate America is very much about departments competing for resources and bragging about themselves to gain leverage in the organization. Inter-departmental competitiveness is akin to sibling rivalry...and can be just as disfunctional.

To a point, AD coul care less. From a business model, they only care about aquiring competitive, profitable assets. They have pretty much just cornered the market as much as is conceivable without becoming a monopoly.

And to harken back to a previous post of mine, they could decide to make the SDK for the three apps unavailable to Pixologic and steer all subscribers to Mudbox, another title they own.

dwburman
10-23-2008, 08:54 PM
That's what I was thinking... sure focusing on expanding cross-compatibility of 3D apps is great unless they're only talking about apps they own.

OTOH, I get the impression that 3rd party development is fairly strong for 3DS Max and Maya, so maybe they'll leave things like FBX open enough for other apps to use. Or maybe they'll start licensing the tech in order to extort more $$ from smaller vendors.

Ågrén
10-23-2008, 10:25 PM
This is bad for LightWave, Modo & C4D. So sad. I see some ridiculous industry-standard claims ahead. The first thing they'll do is restricting the FBX to their family breeding - or maybe they'll turn it into a way to make more money.
Newtek or Maxon should now invite all the talented demotivated workers away from the XSI team.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 10:44 PM
This is bad for LightWave, Modo & C4D. So sad. I see some ridiculous industry-standard claims ahead. The first thing they'll do is restricting the FBX to their family breeding - or maybe they'll turn it into a way to make more money.
Newtek or Maxon should now invite all the talented demotivated workers away from the XSI team.

errrrr....

that would result in substantially less pay.... i think the money will keep them pretty motivated. i would imagine this will result in a very comfortable operating and R&D budget for xsi now.

jin

geo_n
10-23-2008, 10:44 PM
what do xsi fans think about this? pooby or hrgiger? no comments? i think if you're making money out of xsi its no big deal it got bought.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 10:49 PM
That's what I was thinking... sure focusing on expanding cross-compatibility of 3D apps is great unless they're only talking about apps they own.

OTOH, I get the impression that 3rd party development is fairly strong for 3DS Max and Maya, so maybe they'll leave things like FBX open enough for other apps to use. Or maybe they'll start licensing the tech in order to extort more $$ from smaller vendors.

cross compatibility cuts both ways though-

having it is a "foot in the door". maybe if there wasn't a way to smoothly transition from lw to maya, a studio wouldn't do it... but if there is a good interoperability path, then maybe getting a seat will make sense, and that leads to another seat, etc.

actually, in my job before current, a house that had a single lw operator brought me on because they needed a maya operator. ability to interface well with lw made it possible to bring in more maya seats and now the place is primarily maya.

again, autodesk has such a position in the industry that being open doesn't HURT THEM, it THREATENS THE COMPETITION.

jin

Ågrén
10-23-2008, 11:20 PM
errrrr....

that would result in substantially less pay.... i think the money will keep them pretty motivated. i would imagine this will result in a very comfortable operating and R&D budget for xsi now.

jin

How can an ex-Blender developer say that ? I was not generalizing, I was talking about some people. You know, people are different.

jin choung
10-23-2008, 11:26 PM
???

i'm not an ex-blender developer! haha, how'd you get that?

i'm a current blender aficionado though.

and blender has nothing to do with my point - xsi was and is a commercial endeavor. so yeah, money kinda matters.

jin

coremi
10-24-2008, 12:56 AM
Linux is more stable, very little virus problems, advanced 3d interface, FREE and Microsoft owns more than 95% of the PC market, money is power, and thats almost everything a company need to ruin all others..

Mr Rid
10-24-2008, 01:01 AM
Will this affect Newtek?


Aww, didnt get invited to the ball.

65015

tonybliss
10-24-2008, 04:51 AM
well the fact still remains that XSI has a solid animation set ... but now i feel so cold about this ...
I wish that LW just speed up their animation/rigging development/stability so I can be with a respectable company once again .....

as i said over at cgsociety .. I feel like a prodigal son here 0_o

Kalt ..sie Kalt :(

mav3rick
10-24-2008, 06:26 AM
i vote for adobe buy newtek

Lightwolf
10-24-2008, 06:28 AM
i vote for adobe buy newtek
Great, that would be almost as bad as Apple buying NT.

I suppose that it would give Blender a huge boost though :)

Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 06:40 AM
what do xsi fans think about this? pooby or hrgiger? no comments? i think if you're making money out of xsi its no big deal it got bought.

I've already stated in several places that I'm not happy about it. I refuse to support Autodesk, so I don't think I will be upgrading my XSI. I think they're just buying out the competition that's in their price range and I see less development happening as a result of it. I referred to Max, Maya, and XSI over at CGsociety as Boo Berry, Count Chocula, and Frankenberry. It makes no sense to me that one company would try to maintain 3 different applications that all do the same thing at the end of the day. I would understand if they were trying to roll all that technology and development into a powerful, unified application, but as it is, they're just trying to increase their market share and the users are going to pay for it. I'm hoping they get slapped the same way that Microsoft did for monopolization of an industry.

StereoMike
10-24-2008, 08:06 AM
This forum is like a warm house with a cozy fireplace. All shortcomings of LW aside, this forum was always a nice (and fun) place to be. Seems the world outside just got colder.

Lets hope that some more guys find their way to this place. And fingers crossed for NT putting some serious energy into LW development. The money is surely not in marketing...

mike

tonybliss
10-24-2008, 10:18 AM
Mike ... hate to admit but true ..... very cold

last thing i expected, they SI was in the process of acquiring a company's liquid sim engine .. real hi tech to for ICE ....
now this ...
LW really need to step up for me to be unconditionally comfortable as a 'total' 3d artist

mduerr
10-24-2008, 11:10 AM
If anything will end in chaos .... I still have my Lightwave 3.5 dics and the dongle for my Amiga. Let's hope I never have to install again.

Martin

geothefaust
10-24-2008, 11:19 AM
This all kept me up lastnight... And it got me to thinking... What if NT put up on the site an early sale of LW10 with a wish list of features for it, to try and snag those wanting to use another program? I understand that most of the users that went to XSI were ex-LWavers, what better a way to snatch them back up, then to show them that the features that they wanted will finally be there? I don't know, just a thought. It's something I would personally consider. And for that matter, I'd probably plunk down the cash if it had what I was looking for.

toby
10-24-2008, 11:22 AM
If Adobe Photoshop's monopoly is an indicator, introduction of new features will slow to a trickle. I see Compositing applications owned by smaller companies than Adobe that are developing *much* faster.

There's three 3D apps under one roof now, but no company wants to support three apps that do the same thing. They'd rather have all those customers use one app, so eventually they will get merged or specialized.

So IMHO, this is a *bad* thing. But not the end of the world.

Albertdup
10-24-2008, 12:02 PM
To me it seems more like AVID NEEDS the money look at these results.

TEWKSBURY, MA--(Marketwire - October 23, 2008) - Avid Technology, Inc. (NASDAQ: AVID) today reported revenue of $217.1 million for the three-month period ended September 30, 2008, compared to $226.8 million for the same period in 2007. GAAP net loss for the quarter was $66.4 million, or $1.80 per share, compared to GAAP net loss of $5.9 million, or $.14 per share, in the third quarter of 2007.

GAAP net loss in the third quarter of 2008 included goodwill and intangible asset impairment charges associated with the 2005 Pinnacle acquisition, amortization, stock-based compensation, restructuring charges and related tax adjustments totaling $62.0 million. Excluding these items, non-GAAP loss per share was $.12. For the third quarter of 2007, GAAP net loss included $21.0 million of amortization, stock-based compensation, restructuring charges, other costs and related tax adjustments. Excluding these items, non-GAAP earnings per diluted share were $.37 in the third quarter of 2007.

As part of the company's business transformation efforts, Avid also announced today plans to divest the Softimage® 3D animation product line. In addition, the company announced a reduction in workforce to better align its cost structure around the core businesses.

"We've made solid progress in transforming Avid, by organizing around our customers, delivering solutions that will help our customers succeed, and taking necessary steps to align our cost structure to support our core product lines," said Gary Greenfield, Avid's chairman and CEO. "We are pleased with our progress and plan to leverage Avid's collective audio and video strengths, from the consumer to the enterprise, in ways that will deliver sustainable value to customers and prospects."

Revenue for the nine-month period ended September 30, 2008 was $638.2 million, compared to revenue of $671.1 million for the same period in 2007. GAAP net loss for the first nine months of 2008 was $97.9 million, or $2.59 per share, compared to GAAP net loss of $11.8 million, or $.29 per share, for the same period in 2007. GAAP net loss for the nine-month period ended September 30, 2008 included $82.0 million of impairment charges, amortization, stock-based compensation, restructuring charges and related tax adjustments. Excluding these items, the non-GAAP loss per share was $.42 per share for the first nine months of 2008. GAAP net loss for the nine-month period ended September 30, 2007 included $45.8 million of amortization, stock-based compensation, restructuring charges, other costs and related tax adjustments. Excluding these items, non-GAAP earnings per diluted share were $.82 for the first nine months of 2007.

At September 30, 2008, the company's cash balance was $122.4 million, down $102.0 million since the end of 2007. During the first quarter of 2008, the company used $93.2 million in cash to repurchase 4.3 million shares of common stock under the previously-announced share buyback program.

jin choung
10-24-2008, 01:29 PM
http://www.fxguide.com/article505.html

cool... they're gonna end up having one hell of a product once integration of features starts in earnest.

jin

pixeltek
10-24-2008, 02:26 PM
Albertdup
Yes, they apparently needed to stop the bleeding, and probably didn't exactly consider Softimage their 'cash-cow' holding. At the same time, getting rid of payroll obligations for all of the Softimage employees, will be a sizeable long-term saving to Avid.'s bottomline and a significant reduction in operating expenses.
Accountants have no hearts by design :(

DigiLusionist
10-24-2008, 02:30 PM
http://www.fxguide.com/article505.html

cool... they're gonna end up having one hell of a product once integration of features starts in earnest.

jin

But what will this uber-app cost?

Consolidation usually means higher prices.

Dexter2999
10-24-2008, 02:55 PM
[cool... they're gonna end up having one hell of a product once integration of features starts in earnest.

more icons wheeee......

hrgiger
10-24-2008, 05:17 PM
But what will this uber-app cost?

Consolidation usually means higher prices.

That's the catch of it. They're going to keep the products seperate and a few technologies may leak between them but they're just covering all their bases and it's us that's going to pay for it (consumers).

jin choung
10-24-2008, 05:33 PM
more icons wheeee......

ever since quick and ubiquitous tooltips came into vogue, this kinda became a non issue for me.

jin

jin choung
10-24-2008, 05:34 PM
That's the catch of it. They're going to keep the products seperate and a few technologies may leak between them but they're just covering all their bases and it's us that's going to pay for it (consumers).

considering the autodesk lineup's cost of ownership (as well as xsi) was not something i could swallow to begin with, this is a non issue too... : )

jin

3DBob
10-24-2008, 05:46 PM
This is terrible news - I for one will never Buy AD

Reason:

They bought Lightscape, ditched its development and the plugin for lightwave.

It is what they do - kill the competition.

I thought the US has antitrust laws - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

surely AD had more than a fair amount of Market share now?

3Dbob

Dexter2999
10-24-2008, 05:53 PM
It is what they do - kill the competition.

I thought the US has antitrust laws - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

As long as there are viable options out there, the govt. won't do anything.
Microsoft tried to say they weren't a monopoly and pointed to OSX, Linux, and even mentioned BeOS (which caused me to laugh until crying, I'm glad I wasn't drinking milk at the time or it would have shot out my nose.)

AD would point to C4D, Modo, LW, Houdini, and even Blender as alternatives. And they would have a stronger case than did Microsoft.


Still sux

JeffrySG
10-24-2008, 06:59 PM
If Adobe Photoshop's monopoly is an indicator, introduction of new features will slow to a trickle. I see Compositing applications owned by smaller companies than Adobe that are developing *much* faster.

There's three 3D apps under one roof now, but no company wants to support three apps that do the same thing. They'd rather have all those customers use one app, so eventually they will get merged or specialized.

So IMHO, this is a *bad* thing. But not the end of the world.

Pretty much sums up the way I feel about it as well.

Either way, I've been extremely happy with the LW 9.x cycle and I'm really eager to see what LW10 brings as well.

AbnRanger
10-25-2008, 12:42 AM
As long as there are viable options out there, the govt. won't do anything.
Microsoft tried to say they weren't a monopoly and pointed to OSX, Linux, and even mentioned BeOS (which caused me to laugh until crying, I'm glad I wasn't drinking milk at the time or it would have shot out my nose.)

AD would point to C4D, Modo, LW, Houdini, and even Blender as alternatives. And they would have a stronger case than did Microsoft.


Still suxThey may find that the FTC halt's their bid for Softimage, due to the fact that it will give them a virtual monopoly of MARKET SHARE.
Having 80-90% of the market puts them danger close.

Adrian Lopez
10-25-2008, 12:50 AM
I wonder how Autodesk will respond if I ever have to reactivate my copy of XSI 6 Foundation. Anyway... I'm glad I didn't upgrade to XSI 7 Essentials.

virtualcomposer
10-25-2008, 01:49 AM
I hope they do stop the buy out. The only monopoly I like is the game. I love that game and rare do I lose. It's one of the few games people can't beat me in usually. If it was only that easy in life. :eek: Now connect four, can't hardly win a game.

3DBob
10-25-2008, 02:16 AM
Couldn't agree more with the outcome of Adobes aquisition of Macromedia. We had two sets of licences - but the merger has created an annoying licencing set-up a massive plummeting in effective competition and a mere creepage of the package development.

The best example of how independants create far more innovative software is Andrew Shpagins' 3D-Coat - this is being developed faster than any other package I have ever experienced. He is developing best in class tools and allmost immediately responding to user requests. The software has an amazing value point and is turning the heads of even hardened users of the incumbant softwares.

The problem with listed capitalism is that the ownership of vital things can end up in undesirable hands that dont necessarily have the stakeholders best interests at heart.

EG. The US rail system, Global Utilities, energy production, Leveraged buy outs, competition crushing - the problem is that it is rarely, if ever, the small guy that benefits.

Citing mergers/buy outs that have produced good outcomes is flawed, as one can't know how much better off we would be if the competition had remained.

Here in India - Dealers that want to sell Autodesk products have to commit to not selling other competing products - they make me sick!

This is a symptom of a flawed system and people need to start recognising that and actually doing something about it.

3DBob

cresshead
10-25-2008, 02:33 AM
Not much chance of that. Autodesk have never ported anything to the Mac OS.


wrong...autodesk ported combustion

cresshead
10-25-2008, 02:36 AM
i like to hear why people hate autodesk so much...i find them to be okay actually..they're not perfect but i'd choose an autodesk product over ANY adobe product for a purchase.

adobe make over priced, under performing bug ridden rubbish on the whole.
ie> phototshop, flash, fireworks and nightmare weaver.

JBT27
10-25-2008, 02:36 AM
I wonder how Autodesk will respond if I ever have to reactivate my copy of XSI 6 Foundation. Anyway... I'm glad I didn't upgrade to XSI 7 Essentials.

Yes.....I was just thinking that.....regretting having dropped loot on that now.

Julian.

Tom Wood
10-25-2008, 03:16 AM
adobe make over priced, under performing bug ridden rubbish on the whole. ie> phototshop, flash, fireworks and nightmare weaver.

Heh. There are bugs? All this time I thought it was me...

I'm being forced to update all the programs in Web Studio 8 suite because Flash has moved from ActionScript 2 to 3. Still, for a limited time they will let me skip paying for the upgrade from Studio 8 to CS3 and go directly to CS4 for the same cost.

I'm still on LW8.5 and doing all I need, so the upgrade/consolidation wars don't affect me.

:lwicon: and :vticon: = :thumbsup:

akademus
10-25-2008, 03:57 AM
i like to hear why people hate autodesk so much...i find them to be okay actually..they're not perfect but i'd choose an autodesk product over ANY adobe product for a purchase.

adobe make over priced, under performing bug ridden rubbish on the whole.
ie> phototshop, flash, fireworks and nightmare weaver.

People hate monopolists! Microsoft makes (sort of) "ok" OS, but people hate (and use) it :)

Personally, I take this as a bad news. I have some XSI folks over here in studio almost crying when they heard the news. Some of them switched from Maya to XSI just because Autodesk acquired it (dumb thing to do btw.)

I just wish they'll keep their word and leave XSI develops on its own...

Pavlov
10-25-2008, 05:44 AM
Actually, as i said, i get this as a terrible new. Autodesk means monopoly and unfriendly policies. They dont care about users: they killed Lightscape just beause it offered GI to other packages, this should be enough to understand who these guys are and why we should stay away from them.
Anyway: given the diffused and motivated hate for autodesk in the industry, this could turn in a positive moment for NT... if LW 10 will be something good enough to get near big ones (so, something more than a step ahead 9.5), i guess many people who cant stand to work under Mammothdesk will look better at alternatives like LW.
BTW, same goes for Modo and cinema, the only free ones left i guess.


Paolo

bjornkn
10-25-2008, 06:19 AM
Somehow I'm not so unhappy any longer that Google bought SKetchUp. Although I'd have preferred that @Last stayed independent it certainly is much better that Google bought it than Autodesk.
It is definitely a very bad evolution in the software industry when we get such mammooths like Autodesk and Adobe, and Microsoft and Apple.
I'll never forgive Adobe that they bought and killed Canoma.
And that Autodesk killed Lightscape.
Let's hope that NT will stay away from those killing fields.

tonybliss
10-25-2008, 08:08 AM
reasons .. as they put it

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/autodesk_softimage_public_faq.pdf

Nicolas Jordan
10-25-2008, 08:37 AM
I thought Peebler had a pretty good take on the situation on this Fridays modcast. I think if anything this will probably be good news for companies like Newtek, Maxon and Luxology but could be bad news for Softimage users in the long term.

Since Autodesk took Maya and 3DSMax over their development has slowed down in my opinion. The exception to this is Mudbox. I think Mudbox 2009 was a huge leap above Mudbox 1.0 mostly due to the fact the original dev team had most of the work underway when Autodesk took them over. Now that Mudbox 2010 development will be completely controlled by Autodesk I don't expect it to be a huge improvement over Mudbox 2009 like 2009 was over 1.0.

I am one of the ones who have become an Autodesk customer by force since I bought Mudbox before Autodesk took Skymatter over. :foreheadsI haven't given them any money yet though for Mudbox 2009 so I guess at least I'm not a paying customer.

gatz
10-25-2008, 02:11 PM
I was this |...| close to picking up a copy of XSI. Primarily because I couldn't get any licensing questions answered by AutoDesk or their reseller network. XSI gave me pause when they changed the pricing structure. Now I'm back to square one.

rg

parm
10-25-2008, 04:45 PM
wrong...autodesk ported combustion

Hmmm! Is that a fact? Interesting.

So. In your honest opinion. What do you think the chance is, that Autodesk would actually initiate a move to port either: XSI, 3d Max, or Mudbox to the Mac platform at any time in the foreseeable future? (next two years, say).

I think it's highly unlikely myself. Autodesks business strategy seems much more akin to that of a 'holding company' than anything else. they prefer to acquire fully fledged and self contained going concerns. Rather than investing their resources, into what investors may see as blue sky style development.

As far as this acquisition goes. It seems pretty much an opportunistic move on the part of Autodesk. I don't think XSI users need worry that their app will disappear or anything. But the customer-centric ethos is definitely out of the window now.

Lightwolf
10-25-2008, 05:08 PM
wrong...autodesk ported combustion
Not quite, the predecessors paint and effect were cross platform to start with. So they didn't really port anything in the traditional sense of having a mature single platform app to start with.

Cheers,
Mike

kfinla
10-25-2008, 05:16 PM
That was going to be my question.. Did ADSK initiate the port.. sounds like Discrete had already started or perhaps done a lot of the port, it just completed under an ADSK label.

I believe Motionbuilder2009 is WIN exclusive at the moment.. OSX version is still at version 7.5. I would of loved to see Apple buy Softimage lol ..35 mil was a steal.

Tiger
10-25-2008, 05:36 PM
NT+Luxology=?
(I don`t know but I can feel something)

jin choung
10-25-2008, 06:45 PM
NT+Luxology=?
(I don`t know but I can feel something)

actually,

the better fit might be luxology + project messiah!

no overlap!

and the kids might not want to come back to live with the parents but they might want to shack up together....

non incestuously of course....

jin

tonybliss
10-25-2008, 07:35 PM
ewwwww !!!!

tonybliss
10-25-2008, 07:36 PM
lol .. it took a divestment from one company to bring me back here to the loving bickering of why's and how's of LW land ..
hhmmmmm mmm

t4d
10-26-2008, 12:58 AM
you guys are missing out of Amazing 3D tool,. if you don;t uses XSI just because Autodesk owns it

YES Sad that Autodesk now own it,.. BUT it's just software .. just a tool..

Cageman
10-26-2008, 02:37 AM
you guys are missing out of Amazing 3D tool,. if you don;t uses XSI just because Autodesk owns it

YES Sad that Autodesk now own it,.. BUT it's just software .. just a tool..

Works good with big corporations, but personaly I prefer not to own a license from AD. Just too much cash, with few (if any) advantages over LW for 95% of the work that one might do at home or as a freelancer.

sculptactive
10-26-2008, 02:45 AM
Well there can be a plus side to these things.

When AD bought Mudbox I dropped it like a hot potato and made myself learn Zbrush properly. I have never looked back.

t4d
10-26-2008, 04:42 AM
Works good with big corporations, but personaly I prefer not to own a license from AD. Just too much cash, with few (if any) advantages over LW for 95% of the work that one might do at home or as a freelancer.

I'm head of 3D here and we have EVERY 3D platform for R&D
Mudbox, Zbrush, Max, Maya, XSI, LW, C4D etc etc etc etc

I use XSI ALOT. and I do alot stuff that can't be done in Current LW.

I also do stuff in Maya that can't be done in XSI..

IMO Mudbox as Much better workflow then Zbrush
but Zbrush can do things Mudbox can't do..

BUT they are just tools, one tool does NOT do it all.
each tool has it's good and bad points so uses the best one for the job
and get the job done better, easier and Faster.


also the shareholders of the company that develop your Tool
do not really add or Take anything away from your tool business is Business.

all this Corporate " I don't like Big Corporations " is just silly :twak:

if you really want to " do the right thing " Uses Linux, Gimp and Blender.
and enjoy your toolset know you doing "right thing" :twak:

-EsHrA-
10-26-2008, 05:00 AM
"all this Corporate " I don't like Big Corporations " is just silly "

not its not... big corporations are silly and bad for all of us...


mlon

tonybliss
10-26-2008, 05:22 AM
LOL ... @ T4D

well true .. I will def continue using XSI .. cause the reason I started using it was soley for the fact I needed the animation tools CA and Dynamics ... will upgrade, will use will ...

but still not happy about the buyout :S

BTW what Maya does better than XSI as of XSI 7 (particles) ?????? @ T4D

Pavlov
10-26-2008, 05:32 AM
problem is kinda deeper that this imho, giving money to AD means financing a wrong attitude, and encouraging a given vision of things.
AD not only buys tools, there's nothing so wrong in this. AD also tends to prevent users from using other tools but theirs. This can have several names, no one of these is nice.
"So these viz masses want GI, eh ? Let's destroy Lightscape so they will be forced to use Max, bwhahah ! Oh, and these animators spreading money around, let's grab XSI so that money will be ours ! " Plus subscriptions, forced upgrades, grotesque pricing and so on.
Personally i think it's not just emotive, but quite a rational move to be against AD and to avoid using their tools, when possible.

Paolo

highlander_72
10-26-2008, 07:40 AM
Man, this is really bad news, but then again perhaps its not, at least from my personal perspective!

I partly switched from Maya to Lightwave because Maya modeling sucked and really loved LW, but had to step back because of char anim. Then with NEX I got back into Maya for that part, from where I stepped over to XSI to get away from that crashing ***** of a program and bloodsucking Autodesk and now I am back where I started.

I wont stop using XSI because of this, as a matter of fact I am upgrading to v7 right now to still get the benefit of the current features, prices and Eula, which are guaranteed to change dramatically in the coming year, which is damn close.

I wont be spending any money on it under the AD label though, so I will absolutely not upgrade or pay a single cent to that company in the future. I wont get shackled by their acid EULA nor support any other of their "evil" endevours. That alone will make some cash available to perhaps finally finance a nice, really long and excessive vacation! :hey:

This last upgrade is just to "stack-up on provisions" for the hopefully not-so-long wait until Newtek saves the day and LW sports some really nice Character Animation tools, which is really what I wanted all along.

I might be one of the very few who actually feels this way, but I love the modularity of LW. It really gives me the feel of a virtual workshop/stage environment. Beat me up, but I love LW's renderer. It produces great-looking stuff in a fraction of the time it takes with MR. Plus Layout is the only app that somehow really makes me feel as if I am looking through a window into an actual studio, where things I direct to happen unfold.

Hence I cant wait to see Newtek step up and make LW all that it should be and bring that to us at hopefully the same affordable pricing.

So here's my redundant geek-challenge to NewTek development:

It's time to fight back the Borg! Resistance is not futile, just gimme those damn quantum torpedoes and a new ship for christ's sake!

The Empire has almost completed construction of the 2nd Death Star, it's time to gather up all forces in a grand Rebel Alliance to prevent the galaxy from falling into complete darkness!

Anyways, you catch my drift. :D

My eyes are on NewTek and future LW-Releases!:thumbsup:

tonybliss
10-26-2008, 07:59 AM
I agree and feel almost the exact same way with you

t4d
10-26-2008, 08:19 AM
"all this Corporate " I don't like Big Corporations " is just silly "

not its not... big corporations are silly and bad for all of us...


mlon

how do you pay your power, Phone or internet bills ??
where is you money,? in a Bank or under your bed ?
where do you buy your food ?
been to any fast food places laterly ???

ALL BIG Corporations !!!

yet you want to draw lines as to what software you make money/living/enjoyment from ???

not me I don;t drive an hour to buy my food from a farmer
and i don't see the differents between Newtek and Autodesk.

lifes to short.

t4d
10-26-2008, 08:22 AM
L

BTW what Maya does better than XSI as of XSI 7 (particles) ?????? @ T4D


it's more Pipeline issues ( can't talk about )
and along the way there are some very fine features in maya I have found

BUT I prefer using XSI when i can :D

giacob
10-26-2008, 08:27 AM
[QUOTE=t4d;771928]how do you pay your power, Phone or internet bills ??
where is you money,? in a Bank or under your bed ?
where do you buy your food ?
been to any fast food places laterly ???

ALL BIG Corporations !!!

banks!!!! ah aha just the rigth exmple
they have just proven lately that perhaps one better put his money under the bed than in theyr bico corporation hands

t4d
10-26-2008, 08:36 AM
banks!!!! ah aha just the rigth exmple
they have just proven lately that perhaps one better put his money under the bed than in theyr bico corporation hands


have you taken your money out of them yet ?

cresshead
10-26-2008, 08:55 AM
Hmmm! Is that a fact? Interesting.

So. In your honest opinion. What do you think the chance is, that Autodesk would actually initiate a move to port either: XSI, 3d Max, or Mudbox to the Mac platform at any time in the foreseeable future? (next two years, say).

I think it's highly unlikely myself. Autodesks business strategy seems much more akin to that of a 'holding company' than anything else. they prefer to acquire fully fledged and self contained going concerns. Rather than investing their resources, into what investors may see as blue sky style development.

As far as this acquisition goes. It seems pretty much an opportunistic move on the part of Autodesk. I don't think XSI users need worry that their app will disappear or anything. But the customer-centric ethos is definitely out of the window now.

i'd say a 0.00000001% chance for 3dsmax as it's tied to windows api calls

xsi...seriously who cares, xsi has such a tiny userbase it's just not worth the cash to port...the future is in games for 3d content and osx doesn't have direct x so why bother making a 3d app for apple osx...autodesk have maya...that'll do for some die hard apple types wanting a mac 3d app for fx shots and alike.

however xsi does already have a linux port so it's 'possible' but i'd doubt it.
i'd expect the xsi essentials version to be dropped either in price or just dropped totally...their [autodesk] product line would look abit mushy in the middle if they kept it hanging around...still if it sells...why not keep it and just drip feed a feature or 2 from the top version for xsi 2009.

maya is the only app on all three platforms, windows, linux and osx and it's VERY large in colleges and uni's same with 3dsmax...the 'jobs' are in maya and max..i'm not sure where xsi fit's in really...other than being purchased
the could shelve it or use it as a base for their new app to take over from maya, 3dsmax and xsi in a few years time.

mudbox...maybe, as they have competition over on the mac with zbrush 3.12 but that really depends on how well mudbox has sold on windows first...if it's slow selling compared to zbrush you may as well concentrate dev on windows to expand that market first off.

guardonduty
10-26-2008, 09:00 AM
Why should NT not sell. Let's see...hmmm....LW gets bashed with every release....it never seems good enough for some....we get lampooned with every thing we do...from a simple 3D contest....to having too small a presence at 3D shows.....the economy sucks....hey, AutoD wants to give me $15 million.....SOLD!

cresshead
10-26-2008, 09:05 AM
apple computers are really good at>
1. home user pc types...those who want the internet and store their pictures.
2. print design
3. video editing
4. music

also apple do mp3 players and telephones now [gee wizz]

that's about it...
rubbish for games
not great for 3d apps [hardware and price]

if you want 3d on a mac then lightwave, modo, maya and blender.

xsi is for windows and linux and i reackon it'll stay that way too.

we might find>>

xsi for games
3dsmax for arch tech design
maya for film

that's 'maybe' the way they'll pitch them but 3dmax still dominates over xsi for games.
in early 2o00's 8 out of 10 games was made via 3dsmax....

parm
10-26-2008, 09:40 AM
i'd say a 0.00000001% chance for 3dsmax as it's tied to windows api calls

xsi...seriously who cares, xsi has such a tiny userbase it's just not worth the cash to port...the future is in games for 3d content and osx doesn't have direct x so why bother making a 3d app for apple osx...autodesk have maya...that'll do for some die hard apple types wanting a mac 3d app for fx shots and alike.

however xsi does already have a linux port so it's 'possible' but i'd doubt it.
i'd expect the xsi essentials version to be dropped either in price or just dropped totally...their [autodesk] product line would look abit mushy in the middle if they kept it hanging around...still if it sells...why not keep it and just drip feed a feature or 2 from the top version for xsi 2009.

maya is the only app on all three platforms, windows, linux and osx and it's VERY large in colleges and uni's same with 3dsmax...the 'jobs' are in maya and max..i'm not sure where xsi fit's in really...other than being purchased
the could shelve it or use it as a base for their new app to take over from maya, 3dsmax and xsi in a few years time.

mudbox...maybe, as they have competition over on the mac with zbrush 3.12 but that really depends on how well mudbox has sold on windows first...if it's slow selling compared to zbrush you may as well concentrate dev on windows to expand that market first off.

Yep! Pretty much how I see it. Other than there being another 'Uber App' on the horizon, that will replace all the others.

Autodesk seem to be following the Procter & Gamble business model. Ariel, Fairy, Bold and Daz. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if rather than a unification, the product line is further subdivided. Along the lines of an Arch Viz version, VFX and Games versions for each of the packages.

As to "seriously who cares". Well I think a lot of people do care. Apple users are clearly a valued part of Newteks user base, and as far as I know, valued by every other vendor of dual platform software.

With the possibility of Dual boot on my Mac. I for one am sorry that Avid decided to drop 'Foundation' from its line. On the other hand Avid XSIs loss has been Side Effects Houdinis gain, from me at least. It's a wonderful piece of software and I'm very glad of the opportunity to spend time with it. If I can ever afford it I will buy it.

I think this is what is at the crux of why people are a bit upset by the acquisition. The very real knowledge that certain business, does not matter to a company like Autodesk. XSI users have gone from valued customer to mere punter.

wacom
10-26-2008, 09:41 AM
T4D- I totally respect you but come on!

Just because I pay a phone bill to a large cooperation doesn't mean I have to buy my food from one, nor clothes, nor software, nor quite a few things.

Yes, it's true, you'll probably never be able to escape them entirely, but give me a break- pretending like you're cornered and there are no choices is simply a weak excuse to not have to think and act like a responsible, intelligent human being.

For example:

75% of my food is grown less than 15 miles from my home by a very small farm or in my own garden. I shop 60-70% of the time or more at a local chain for my other food needs.

Now I could just walk down the street to a major national grocer, but my wife works for the local one I mentioned above and I know that A- the company tries to do the right thing when ever it can (private company) and B- the employees are all treated VERY well for the industry they are in esp. compared to those working at "MEGA FOOD INC.". In turn, these people, making a better wage, put more money into my local economy.

Maybe it's just an Oregon thing though (I know it's not)- I'm not a hippy or exceptional here etc. just a guy who lives somewhere that likes CHOICES!:thumbsup:

Maybe OZ isn't that way...

Now you know I love me some XSI goodness, but I simply will not put up with AD and their licensing scheme. If I get a job at XYZ and they want me to use it, so be it, but I'm not going to directly contribute to AD while I can help it and make the choice for myself.

Besides- this industry is still VERY young in terms of innovation and possibilities...and a small(ish) team can do quite a bit. Not sure who it will be, they might not even be on the radar yet, but large studios don't sit around either and wait for innovation from AD and the like...

In the end this has been a good thing- it's made me evaluate the difference between NEEDS and wants in 3D- and take another look at companies I wrote off three years ago for numerous reasons (SideFX, Maxon, NewTek etc.) and seriously sit down and start to evaluate them- not just read the feature lust list.

So, in the end, it's you that's playing the victim card when you pretend you don't have choices or that others are "stupid/ignorant/lazy" for not "getting" your point of view that we're all screwed anyway so let's just go with the flow. Buck stops here bud.

t4d
10-26-2008, 09:43 AM
xsi...seriously who cares, xsi has such a tiny userbase

hmm XSI was eating into Maya and max user base in a big way
I feel the Main reason Autodesk purchased XSI is because they saw it happening ( silly to not see what your users are doing )

XSI is bigger then you think.




however xsi does already have a linux port so it's 'possible' but i'd doubt it.
i'd expect the xsi essentials version to be dropped either in price or just dropped totally...their [autodesk] product line would look abit mushy in the middle if they kept it hanging around...

explain maya complete and maya unlimited ??




maya is the only app on all three platforms, windows, linux and osx and it's VERY large in colleges and uni's same with 3dsmax...the 'jobs' are in maya and max..i'm not sure where xsi fit's in really...other than being purchased
the could shelve it or use it as a base for their new app to take over from maya, 3dsmax and xsi in a few years time.



man you really need to go out more and see what is happening in the 3D industry around you .... this comment is so odd ??????

I've worked in 3 countries in the last 2 years ( 4 citys )
you are Majorly under estamate what XSI was doing out there..

parm
10-26-2008, 09:52 AM
apple computers are really good at>
1. home user pc types...those who want the internet and store their pictures.
2. print design
3. video editing
4. music

Ha, Ha ha.

That's really funny. An 8 core 3.2 GHz machine for the home user type surfing the net and storing photos. Pull the other one. :)

cresshead
10-26-2008, 09:54 AM
you may find xsi 2009 release date slip to late 2009 as the autodesk product consolidation development team struggle to implement the 'view cube' in xsi as xsi currently doesn't have a left, bottom and back view to select on the view cube...

just joking!...but it's actually going to be interesting to see if xsi finally gets a back left and bottom 'view' to select and not just a mirror view of what it has now...

also i'm hoping xsi also get some units scale other than the generic which are based around a decimeter..

this is probably the best thing to happen for xsi..finally getting the basics of other apps so that xsi can move toward a wider audience of users wanting to take advantage of ies lighting and realworld scales for maps [textures].

wacom
10-26-2008, 09:55 AM
xsi for games
3dsmax for arch tech design
maya for film



Exactly- and why I'm moving on. I don't "DO" games. Where does ICE fit in for games- and please don't give me some craptastic rational. ICE was headed on a path to make XSI more and in some cases possibly better at doing many of the things Houdini does.

And what part of the industry does Houdini lurk in?

I have more than just anti-mega-corp and licensing issues to worry about. XSI is deep- and I like that, but I'm not going to waste X amount of years getting further with an application meant for "games" that might not even have a future.

Hence switching to one that does- preferably without AD finger prints on it.

And Cresshead- next to an AD marketing employee coming here and talking the gospel, your the last person on any forum I use that's I'd trust for an un-biased AD opinion since so much of your life is shaped around their tools.

You also look at things like an educator- number of seats means something is better? That's like saying there are more handguns so you're going to bring one to ground zero of a nuclear war! Sorry, some tools just kick more arse at the end of the day...even if they are more "special ops".

Who knows though- maybe now you'll finally give XSI a real shot since it will have AD over it and some unicorn logo or something...oh wait, they choose only creatures that strangle their prey or drink their blood...

cresshead
10-26-2008, 09:57 AM
Ha, Ha ha.

That's really funny. An 8 core 3.2 GHz machine for the home user type surfing the net and storing photos. Pull the other one. :)

so you can't read past the number '2' eh?:D...
or even upto number 2 in a list!

you need an iphone!:phone_cal

cresshead
10-26-2008, 10:01 AM
hmm XSI was eating into Maya and max user base in a big way
I feel the Main reason Autodesk purchased XSI is because they saw it happening ( silly to not see what your users are doing )

XSI is bigger then you think.



explain maya complete and maya unlimited ??





man you really need to go out more and see what is happening in the 3D industry around you .... this comment is so odd ??????

I've worked in 3 countries in the last 2 years ( 4 citys )
you are Majorly under estamate what XSI was doing out there..


re xsi bigger than i think...well autodesk and avid don't think it's particularly big....dropping in value from $285million to $32milion isn't big...

explain maya and maya unlimited...in what regard..how they dominate the edu area in uni's and colleges along with 3dsmax

how they dominate in film with their piplines to renderman?

re jobs...in the uk [where i am] 3dsmax and maya are the largest [by a mile] in jobs offered...other apps like lightwave, cinema and xsi are not even talked of in the job market.

wacom
10-26-2008, 10:03 AM
so you can't read past the number '2' eh?:D...
or even upto number 2 in a list!

you need an iphone!:phone_cal

Uh, what kind of things are you editing? I work in print quite a bit...and for the most part, besides RAM, that machine is WAY over kill for 99% of print work. Hell it's even over kill for most video editing.

But I digress with reality...

cresshead
10-26-2008, 10:11 AM
apple's pro area is editing for film and hd video and print work..a mac pro is indeed overkill on most occasions.

the fastest growing area in 3d currently is gaming...with osx not having direct x that really limits the use of such apps as maya and lightwave on osx for game development, being restricted to open gl is not a good thing for game dvelopment that's why it's so strong on the windows platform and where xsi has made some headway into that area of late..that's where i see growth for xsi so the idea of porting xsi to apple mac's with no direct x is abit of a dead end for the fastest growing area in 3d jobs.

t4d
10-26-2008, 10:21 AM
you may find xsi 2009 release date slip to late 2009 as the autodesk product consolidation development team struggle to implement the 'view cube' in xsi as xsi currently doesn't have a left, bottom and back view to select on the view cube...

hmm XSI 7 was only released afew months ago ?? i would not think anything would come from XSI untill 2009
the XSI 7 update was AMAZING !!
XSI ICE is the next level in 3D :thumbsup:





just joking!...but it's actually going to be interesting to see if xsi finally gets a back left and bottom 'view' to select and not just a mirror view of what it has now...


use the middle mouse button in XSI when you select the view ??

throwing stone as a peice of software you Don;t know how to use,.. is really silly cresshead ....



also i'm hoping xsi also get some units scale other than the generic which are based around a decimeter..

[textures].

XSi uses a Metric system ( tho they call is xsi UNITS )
Metric is a unit of measurement the rest of the uses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system)

it's a more flexiable system when dealing with Scaling from light years to millimetres.. try using Nulls and neutral pose ( scaling )

Again please don't try and put down software you don;t know much about .

t4d
10-26-2008, 10:24 AM
apple's pro area is editing for film and hd video and print work..a mac pro is indeed overkill on most occasions.

the fastest growing area in 3d currently is gaming...with osx not having direct x that really limits the use of such apps as maya and lightwave on osx for game development, being restricted to open gl is not a good thing for game dvelopment that's why it's so strong on the windows platform and where xsi has made some headway into that area of late..that's where i see growth for xsi so the idea of porting xsi to apple mac's with no direct x is abit of a dead end for the fastest growing area in 3d jobs.

come On Get out of these forums and see what's out there man??

this is getting silly have you heard of Unity (http://unity3d.com/) ???

parm
10-26-2008, 10:37 AM
apple's pro area is editing for film and hd video and print work..a mac pro is indeed overkill on most occasions.

the fastest growing area in 3d currently is gaming...with osx not having direct x that really limits the use of such apps as maya and lightwave on osx for game development, being restricted to open gl is not a good thing for game dvelopment that's why it's so strong on the windows platform and where xsi has made some headway into that area of late..that's where i see growth for xsi so the idea of porting xsi to apple mac's with no direct x is abit of a dead end for the fastest growing area in 3d jobs.

It may be the fastest growing area of 3d,( I wouldn't know myself, I'll trust your reliability on that). But it's not the only area of 3d content creation that's growing, fast. The Mac as you well know, is a perfectly viable 3d platform. And large enough for developers like Newtek, Pixologic, Side Effects and the makers of Rhino to think it worthwhile pursuing.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-26-2008, 10:39 AM
I heard from several AD sources that Max was smoking XSI in sales, if not in features and innovation. Money talks. Max development team was just doubled.

Technology is shared somewhat across the 3 apps. Motionbuilder animation layers just made it into Maya. Max soft selection just made it into Maya.

Max got...the view Cube. Woohoo.

cresshead
10-26-2008, 10:44 AM
xsi has done best in the gaming area, then the film fx area so unless you buy into the reality distortion field known as 'steve jobs' i don't believe xsi will move to osx anytime soon.

and the view cube will arrive in xsi 2009 so xsi WILL get a left right top bottom and front and back finally.

re scale/units...yep i know...if you actually read my text you would have read that a xsi 'unit' is a decimeter which is 10cm....but getting fully functioning unit's of scale will help
xsi expand into the arch design area with the addition of ies lights from autodesk in a new version.

i see as the autoesk aquisition as the HUGE positive for xsi...it'll get some much needed development to help it EXPAND from a niche market share to more like how maya expanded out from film and fx over to gaming and beig much more diverse selection of artists using it.

xsi future is looking better than ever imho...better autodesk than adobe for sure.

parm
10-26-2008, 10:49 AM
x.............' i don't believe xsi will move to osx anytime soon.

That's not in dispute. As already mentioned Autodesk has never ported anything to the Mac platform. They're famous for it.

I take it the 'View Cube' is the first thing that gets disabled in preferences, by the power users :)

cresshead
10-26-2008, 10:59 AM
I heard from several AD sources that Max was smoking XSI in sales, if not in features and innovation. Money talks. Max development team was just doubled.

Technology is shared somewhat across the 3 apps. Motionbuilder animation layers just made it into Maya. Max soft selection just made it into Maya.

Max got...the view Cube. Woohoo.

max 2009>>
* Spline UVW Mapping tool
* Reveal™ Iterative Rendering
* ProMaterials™: A set of new flexible mental ray materials
* Photometric Lights
* ViewCube™ and the SteeringWheels™ viewport navigation tools
* ForeFeet option for quadrupedal skeletons
* Rearranged UI
* mental ray: mr Proxies, for fast render time geometry loading
* mental ray: New render elements

and the subs additionally got>
3d sound design plugin
polygon reduction plugin


i'd have to say i'm not wow'd with max 2009 update overall...i hate the new select by name dialogue box and have configured max to use the old one..

the steering wheel is useless...
the viewcube...don;t really use it much..but it doesn't get in the way anyhow.

i'd be pretty happy running max 9 actually.:D

cresshead
10-26-2008, 11:00 AM
That's not in dispute. As already mentioned Autodesk has never ported anything to the Mac platform. They're famous for it.
:)


autodesk [who owned discreet] created combustion on windows and osx.

parm
10-26-2008, 11:10 AM
autodesk [who owned discreet] created combustion on windows and osx.

We both know that that's what's known as clutching at straws. When we say port, most people mean. Taking a full fledged mature piece of software and, well, porting it.

But back to the cube. I get that there's been some cannibalization of features between apps. Soft selection and so forth. But has Autodesk actually introduced anything novel, apart from the 'view cube.' into either app?

cresshead
10-26-2008, 11:18 AM
disagree...creating combustion and porting it to osx is not clutching at straws.

i WOULD agree that autodesk do not focus on mac osx

yeah....3d sound in 3dsmax you can place a model of a radio in your scene and agssign a sound file to it and as the camera moves toward/around you get stereo/red/blue shift in the audio file you render out via 3dsmax...sounds rather novel to me!

maya...muscles...novel?
maya n cloth/particles..novel??

Chris S. (Fez)
10-26-2008, 11:21 AM
max 2009>>
* Spline UVW Mapping tool
* Reveal™ Iterative Rendering
* ProMaterials™: A set of new flexible mental ray materials
* Photometric Lights
* ViewCube™ and the SteeringWheels™ viewport navigation tools
* ForeFeet option for quadrupedal skeletons
* Rearranged UI
* mental ray: mr Proxies, for fast render time geometry loading
* mental ray: New render elements

and the subs additionally got>
3d sound design plugin
polygon reduction plugin.

Yeah, I am pretty pleased with 2009 and was only listing some instances of technology trickling in from other packages. I was hoping Max would have PaintFX and decent NURBS by now, among other Maya features...

parm
10-26-2008, 11:25 AM
maya...muscles...novel?
maya n cloth/particles..novel??

Hey I was only asking. But didn't Maya have cloth and particles before?

jin choung
10-26-2008, 01:32 PM
hmm XSI was eating into Maya and max user base in a big way
I feel the Main reason Autodesk purchased XSI is because they saw it happening ( silly to not see what your users are doing )

XSI is bigger then you think.



first, autodesk WASN'T looking to acquire xsi... avid was shopping it around to get rid of it. autodesk ended up being the viable buyer.

second, WHY was avid shopping it around if it was doing so well? and MORE TELLING - why such a LOOOOOOOOOW sale price? someone worked out how many seats of xsi the sale of the ip worked out to. not a lot.

third, in terms of just looking at cg want ads, seeing maya/max dominance in the industry is not hard. how many maya/max (more maya though) operator ads for every xsi (or lw) ad?

jin

jin choung
10-26-2008, 01:56 PM
Why should NT not sell. Let's see...hmmm....LW gets bashed with every release....it never seems good enough for some....we get lampooned with every thing we do...from a simple 3D contest....to having too small a presence at 3D shows.....the economy sucks....hey, AutoD wants to give me $15 million.....SOLD!

ummm... with all those issues, ya think it likely someone would WANT to buy?

: )

jin

Tonttu
10-26-2008, 02:07 PM
I wont stop using XSI because of this, as a matter of fact I am upgrading to v7 right now to still get the benefit of the current features, prices and Eula, which are guaranteed to change dramatically in the coming year, which is damn close.

I wont be spending any money on it under the AD label though, so I will absolutely not upgrade or pay a single cent to that company in the future. I wont get shackled by their acid EULA nor support any other of their "evil" endevours. That alone will make some cash available to perhaps finally finance a nice, really long and excessive vacation! :hey:


If you later sell the license, would the buyer be able to upgrade it? Would Autodesk allow it? Trying to clear some confusion at another board..

Lightwolf
10-26-2008, 02:46 PM
yeah....3d sound in 3dsmax you can place a model of a radio in your scene and agssign a sound file to it and as the camera moves toward/around you get stereo/red/blue shift in the audio file you render out via 3dsmax...sounds rather novel to me!
If I'm not mistaken C4D offered that functionilty around 10 years ago or so. Quite novel back then, if a bit early.

Probably still a bit early as animators don't tend to be decent sound designers (and vice versa for that matter ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
10-26-2008, 02:51 PM
If I'm not mistaken C4D offered that functionilty around 10 years ago or so. Quite novel back then, if a bit early.

Probably still a bit early as animators don't tend to be decent sound designers (and vice versa for that matter ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

yes 3dsmax have had this as a 3rd party plugin for many years...it's now inside 3dsmax 2009 subscription version [not boxed version]

i'd imagine it lends itself mostly to game development..that and the ability to have 100 audio channels inside 3dsmax and not just 1 stereo pair.

cresshead
10-26-2008, 02:56 PM
If you later sell the license, would the buyer be able to upgrade it? Would Autodesk allow it? Trying to clear some confusion at another board..
once it gets the autodesk eula then no...you buy a licence to use it...that YOU...yourself ie YOUR name or YOUR COMPANY....

to transfer you have to buy the company it's been used by.

that's the standard autodesk eula for all their apps.


so if you have xsi 7 NOW your under the softimage eula...

as soon as the purchase of softimage concludes and they release a new version or a patch that you have to ''agree to'' you'll probably see the new eula on that autodesk branded xsi...be it autodesk xsi 7.0000000001 or autodesk xsi 2009 it's then under autodesk eula so will not be transferable.

so...you can right NOW buy and sell second hand xsi UNTIL autodesk takes ahold of xsi and releases any patch to it that then brands it 'autodesk'

is that clear enough?:thumbsup:

Tonttu
10-26-2008, 05:28 PM
as soon as the purchase of softimage concludes and they release a new version or a patch that you have to ''agree to'' you'll probably see the new eula on that autodesk branded xsi...be it autodesk xsi 7.0000000001 or autodesk xsi 2009 it's then under autodesk eula so will not be transferable.

so...you can right NOW buy and sell second hand xsi UNTIL autodesk takes ahold of xsi and releases any patch to it that then brands it 'autodesk'

is that clear enough?:thumbsup:

Yeah there was some suspicion that the future buyer would face trouble, but I don't see how, if no agreement to an Autodesk eula has happened before the new owner decides to install a patch and sign his name in blood.

alvin_cgi
10-26-2008, 09:42 PM
Yeah, this is a trouble now I am facing… the license and upgrade policy are the reason I am invested in XSI, hey, I am totally stuck again… :thumbsdow
If you miss an upgrade or two, then you need to pay for heavy penalty for skipping, which is no difference to buy a whole new license. :devil:
By the way, I hope I am wrong here… they are release new upgrade every 6 months, that mean if I am not on their subscription plan, I will be losing my license in a year time!!:mad:

mouse_art
10-27-2008, 12:35 AM
Err, DS was included in that $285M deal...


re xsi bigger than i think...well autodesk and avid don't think it's particularly big....dropping in value from $285million to $32milion isn't big...

explain maya and maya unlimited...in what regard..how they dominate the edu area in uni's and colleges along with 3dsmax

how they dominate in film with their piplines to renderman?

re jobs...in the uk [where i am] 3dsmax and maya are the largest [by a mile] in jobs offered...other apps like lightwave, cinema and xsi are not even talked of in the job market.

highlander_72
10-27-2008, 02:29 AM
If you later sell the license, would the buyer be able to upgrade it? Would Autodesk allow it? Trying to clear some confusion at another board..

As cresshead has already stated, the applicable Eula is the one you check off during installation, which is currently still the old Softimage one. Once Autodesk releases a patch and you install that, you have to agree to theirs and things change. If you dont, and just want to sell off your old copy or buy one, which is your right under the Eula you signed off, they will have to comply, but will most likely put a heavy fee on such a license transfer.

Upgrading should not be an issue, but you never know.

My advice, to be taken with a grain of salt, is to buy/sell now, as long as the deal is not 100% finalized and the 2 companies still have to function as separate entities.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

tonybliss
10-27-2008, 04:00 AM
Laugh you asses off .. this is ?VERY funny . and very true :P well except for the final part :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR7UWImpG54

Dirk
10-27-2008, 04:08 AM
they are release new upgrade every 6 months, that mean if I am not on their subscription plan, I will be losing my license in a year time!!:mad:

Losing your license because You do not upgrade?

jaxtone
10-27-2008, 04:19 AM
Autodesk = Heavy Blood Suckers

Softimage XSI = Captured by raw commercialism, first AVID and now the famous Autodesk

Lightwave = I have been trying to tell Newtek since 1997 to increase the possibilities of working more intimate with especially industrial CAD systems and also with Post Production Tools that are common. But until lately I have just received a very strange and cocky attitude that haven´t felt serious when looking at the professional side of 3D.

I really hope that this new and more customer friendly attitude that lately has been shown from at last Newtek Europe, means that Newtek is planning for a future that just don´t integrate Spaceships and spoiled brattitudes.

And may the good force prevent Autodesk´s greedy claws from capture Newteks products! Ever!

pooby
10-27-2008, 07:24 AM
I only just found out about this today.
It's an interesting development. At the end of the day it's decisions that are made for reasons we can't ever be sure of, so having a strong opinion on it seems like a misdirection of energy.
It is what it is.
It's not going to make XSI any less attractive to me so I don't really mind that much and I'm not going to yearn for what might have been but may not be anymore just as I'm not going to get excited about what might be.. I just go with what's best for me at the time. It's the work and the ideas that are the important bit.
Software is currently capable of doing pretty much anything you can imagine so it's not worth getting emotional about.
As David Brent once said.
'Nothing changes by staying the same'

t4d
10-27-2008, 08:27 AM
third, in terms of just looking at cg want ads, seeing maya/max dominance in the industry is not hard. how many maya/max (more maya though) operator ads for every xsi (or lw) ad?

jin


I'm hiring XSI artists and ALOT are Ex-Maya & Max AND LW users ....

And ALOT enjoy XSI so much they purchased personal copies of XSI..
some are very highly skill maya Artist wanting to use XSI More..


Sorry but i have to say ..
Reading Internet forums give you No real knowleage of what the REAL 3D industry is Doing get out of you ROOM !!!..
( this thread is a clear exsample if it )

I do Agree Autodesk did not shop from XSI,. Avid was looking for a fast cash

company wise Avid are in trouble and XSI was the quickest and easiest sale they could make but you need to think more about the why Autodesk got it.....

jaxtone
10-27-2008, 09:22 AM
I'm hiring XSI artists and ALOT are Ex-Maya & Max AND LW users ....

Sorry but i have to say ..
Reading Internet forums give you No real knowleage of what the REAL 3D industry is Doing get out of you ROOM !!!.. ( this thread is a clear exsample if it )

Hehehe... my room? You must be joking... I haven´t had my own room since I left my dads and moms home in springtime 1972! And I am assure that it´s not fair to count the Hotel rooms I´ve been sleeping in every night after more than 3000 live performances on the heavy road of rock ´n roll.

Own room? :D

t4d
10-27-2008, 09:41 AM
Hehehe... my room? You must be joking... I haven´t had my own room since I left my dads and moms home in springtime 1972! And I am assure that it´s not fair to count the Hotel rooms I´ve been sleeping in every night after more than 3000 live performances on the heavy road of rock ´n roll.

Own room? :D

I was gigging when i was 15 I'm a muso too... I move to 3D when i was 27.. after a LONG time Making a living from my guitar =)

email me What are you playing at the moment ? I've just starting gigging around Dubai ( where I currently have a long term 3D gig ;)

wacom
10-27-2008, 09:44 AM
max 2009>>
* Spline UVW Mapping tool
* Reveal™ Iterative Rendering
* ProMaterials™: A set of new flexible mental ray materials
* Photometric Lights
* ViewCube™ and the SteeringWheels™ viewport navigation tools
* ForeFeet option for quadrupedal skeletons
* Rearranged UI
* mental ray: mr Proxies, for fast render time geometry loading
* mental ray: New render elements

and the subs additionally got>
3d sound design plugin
polygon reduction plugin



i'd be pretty happy running max 9 actually.:D

That's a funny list since half of those things are mostly from mental images. All AD did was put the latest (least stable) build of mr in their app and connect to it. Some of those features aren't production proven by any means yet.

So much for innovation....

What many people didn't get is that softimage didn't stay one point release behind the curve on mr due to them having money issues or AD having special agreements with Nvidia (mental images parent co. now). It was because so much of what's new in mr is still "beta". They only wanted to put stuff out that was reliable.

wacom
10-27-2008, 09:50 AM
What many people didn't get is that softimage didn't stay one point release behind the curve on mr due to them having money issues or AD having special agreements with Nvidia (mental images parent co. now). It was because so much of what's new in mr is still "beta". They only wanted to put stuff out that was reliable.

In addition- some of you don't see the "real" numbers, only the glory. A lot of applications sell more seats than you think, and believe it or not, MAX IS NOT the only revenue stream for AD.

Their is a difference between what a studio uses and how many seats are sold.

tyrot
10-27-2008, 10:30 AM
I do Agree Autodesk did not shop from XSI,. Avid was looking for a fast cash



dear t4d

actually that is the part i dont understand exactly. XSI just released a new version ...got pretty good critics...probably in few months its worth would have been higher.. How come they wanted to get rid of a software that much quicker and almost under-priced...strange...really

Best

t4d
10-27-2008, 10:47 AM
dear t4d

actually that is the part i dont understand exactly. XSI just released a new version ...got pretty good critics...probably in few months its worth would have been higher.. How come they wanted to get rid of a software that much quicker and almost under-priced...strange...really

Best


Dear Tyrot

READ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_market

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_cash_flow

Avid needed cash
IMO XSI was the easiest asset to find a buyer for..
BUT that is only my opinion.

the real facts may come out IF Avid goes completely bankrupt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankrupt)

I feel avid have gone the way of SGI
AVID used to sell MILLION Dollar Video systems

but Nowadays a $3000 PC can do it just as well,. and with software being fairly Cheap,. why buy a Avid $200 000 product when a $500 - $2000 peice of software may do the job ???

Avid didn't change with the market,. They wanted to be "the upmarket Product" Best of the Best with a price to match ...

which clearly did not work ...

wacom
10-27-2008, 11:15 AM
Yeah it was like cutting out the only good organ in a rotting corps to try and save it.

Someone on the boards looked into the CEO of Avid (who came on not tooo long ago) and said this is what he does- slice and dice and re-focus a company that's gotten too big for it's own britches.

You'd have thought they'd have tried to at least form another company first- with separate stock or something...or offered the employees to buy a huge stake in the company...

Ah, don't you just love it when share holders, who only touch a mouse to email or trade stocks, control your software?!

StereoMike
10-27-2008, 01:36 PM
What many people didn't get is that softimage didn't stay one point release behind the curve on mr due to them having money issues or AD having special agreements with Nvidia (mental images parent co. now). It was because so much of what's new in mr is still "beta". They only wanted to put stuff out that was reliable.


Oh I heard something different. MI got pissed because Softimage wanted to open xsi for 3rd party renderers. And the source is quite reliable (xsi dev).

mike

Cageman
10-27-2008, 01:43 PM
Oh I heard something different. MI got pissed because Softimage wanted to open xsi for 3rd party renderers. And the source is quite reliable (xsi dev).

mike

If that is true, the I don't see how MR will ever get its arse over to LW?

I mean, LW already compete with MR on so many levels... so, MI is kind of pissed off even before starting to port to LW. *lol*

wacom
10-27-2008, 03:09 PM
IF that were true then why has this been the practice with XSI for so long- way before they opened it up to other render engines which they did LONG after Maya and Max did?

That info seems flawed.

Check your source or name them- it will not get them in trouble ya know.

jay3d
10-27-2008, 03:14 PM
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kR7UWImpG54

LOL :D

alvin_cgi
10-27-2008, 03:25 PM
Oops! Sorry… I was typed too fast… what I mean was you still have your license, but when you decide upgrade to latest version, you will need pay penalty for skipping, and normally cost like buying a whole new package, this is what my understanding.

Technically, you never lose your license.


Losing your license because You do not upgrade?

Tiger
10-27-2008, 03:28 PM
Hahah.."BLENDER BOY" Lol Good clip!

cresshead
10-27-2008, 03:29 PM
lots of info seems in various threads is guesswork...xsi got abit of a raw deal in regards unlimited render licences compared to 3dsmax which has unlimited licences via backburner even though mental ray was the solution for xsi and softiage 3.4 and xsi has mental ray for years before autodesk got it incorporated into 3dsmax and maya.

as for seats sold> i myself and 4 people i know [students] bought xsi foundation and only 1 of those 5 continues to use it [not me btw]....seats 'sold' and seats 'used' in 3d apps doesn't always balance out.
i have 2 seats of lightwave and only use 1 seat 95% of the time.

xsi has a bright future i think with autodesk..i know most people disagree.

robertoortiz
10-27-2008, 03:52 PM
I posted this in another thread, but what the hell...

(cresshead already hear this argument from me)
It cannot be downplayed how monumental this purchase is for our industry.

There is definetly a pattern of a desire of TOTAL market integration from Autodesk.


I just wonder were we stand in terms of our future. Not only for Lightwave, but for ANYONE trying to do graphics of any sort with a computer..

Lets think about it..
One company effectively controls most of the computer graphics market.

In effect we have one player now controlling the destiny of the most Entertainment graphics industry an frankly , if history is any indicator, they really want to become the ONLY player in the world of graphics
As a company Autodesk, has expanded in the past 10 years into a force that DOMINATES all the markets they enter.

Right now they control Architectural Design, Industrial Design & now the Gaming/ Film & Television markets.


This means that one player an dictate terms to other companies and set up industry wide standards that benefit them

As I said before...
They could drop support on any 2d/3d format they wish, and move to proprietary formats for all 3d work.

Not only that, they could REFUSE to open the format...
Apple does this right now with their iTunes music player.

Hell if they wish now they could now establish subscription certification programs to "certify" that you can use their software.

This is quite common in other markets.
*Oracle does this right for databases.
Microsoft does this for most of their tools

Chris S. (Fez)
10-27-2008, 04:30 PM
Who needs Mental Ray with 9.5.X?

I wonder how many XSI mental ray customizations can or will be ported to Max/Maya? ie. render region, passes etc.

wacom
10-27-2008, 06:33 PM
Who needs Mental Ray with 9.5.X?

I wonder how many XSI mental ray customizations can or will be ported to Max/Maya? ie. render region, passes etc.

The pass (and for that matter overrides) and region systems are completely independent of render engine. Hence you can use 3Delight with such things. AD is just a bunch of lazy arse bastards- that's why they don't have it.

Honest. Oh and share holders too- don't forget the share holders!

Dexter2999
10-27-2008, 06:54 PM
I know the stress here has obviously been about XSI, but they got Alienbrain as well. Have you guys seen the demo's for that? Ungodly expencive but by looks of it a "must have" for a post house.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-27-2008, 06:55 PM
The pass (and for that matter overrides) and region systems are completely independent of render engine. Hence you can use 3Delight with such things. AD is just a bunch of lazy arse bastards- that's why they don't have it.

Honest. Oh and share holders too- don't forget the share holders!

Ah well. Hopefully XSI's superior subds and render pass workflow will make it into Max.

StereoMike
10-27-2008, 07:02 PM
@Wacom: Your inbox is full...

jaxtone
10-27-2008, 08:57 PM
I was gigging when i was 15 I'm a muso too... I move to 3D when i was 27.. after a LONG time Making a living from my guitar =)

E-mail me What are you playing at the moment ? I've just starting gigging around Dubai ( where I currently have a long term 3D gig ;)

I just emailed you! Unfortunally I haven´t been in Dubai since 2001 when I overviewed an international 3G world-tour for Ericsson at the Emirates Towers. I was responsible for all 3D, Graphic design and films that were displayed in front of the Royal families and all politicians of the UAE. Well Ericsson didn´t sign a contract with UAE but I am sure that most people know 3G been quite popular any way all around the world nowadays.

Dubai is sure one of my favourite places and just I couldn´t imagine that there were so much interesting music in this little part of the world. From small jazz trios playing coctail music to big bands and nostalgia rock bands. Do you have any knowledge of the quality of the players in that area? I guess there are loads of western people living there, but are they good?

Here´s my plan! Give me a hint of a few companies that might need proven skills and experience for their customer targeted projects. I am a master controller/project designer either when talking of customer targeted projects or when its needed to increasing the value of a brand.

If any of these positions leads to an open contract or freelance position we will definitely have to start up a great band together.

Nice shot though!

Tonttu
10-28-2008, 04:33 AM
I know the stress here has obviously been about XSI, but they got Alienbrain as well.

Are you sure? http://softimageinsider.blogspot.com/

robertoortiz
10-28-2008, 08:18 AM
I wonder if as a result of this sale, we will see a tighter integration among the surviving apps?
They would be Luxology, Project Messiah,Houdini, Blender,Pixologic and who knows even Maxon.

Maybe a strategic partnership with a big company (like ADOBE) is in order for everyone who is not under the control of Autodesk.

bjornkn
10-28-2008, 08:50 AM
Maybe a strategic partnership with a big company (like ADOBE) is in order for everyone who is not under the control of Autodesk.
Partner with the Hammerhead to avoid the jaws of the Great White? I don't know if that's such a good idea ;)

robertoortiz
10-28-2008, 09:10 AM
It depends on who is the bigger fish...


Listing of World's Largests Software Companies:
Autodesk is 12th...
Adobe is 9th


http://www.softwaretop100.org/list.php?page=1

I am reminded of the relationships with Sharks and Remora fish.
It is symbiotic relationship that works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remora

Dexter2999
10-28-2008, 09:44 AM
Are you sure? http://softimageinsider.blogspot.com/


Thanks for that. That actually made me feel a little better.

archijam
10-28-2008, 11:13 AM
What is XSI? You guys talking about XAD?

Lightwolf
10-28-2008, 11:23 AM
Just to lighten things up, Avid is apparently also going to sell Pinnacle to Hauppauge.

I wonder if Avid accept donations by now, they should add a PayPal button to their website ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Dexter2999
10-28-2008, 11:40 AM
Well, I think AVID went overboard when they bought Pinnacle. I think the whole Liquid market was ill conceived.

All they every really needed to do was lower the price of the Media Composer Software only solution. That was the item to compete with Final Cut Pro, not AVID Express or ExpressDV. And at $2,500 it was just too high to compete effectively.

The fact that they can't keep Media Composer and ProTools working on the same OS is very frustrating as well. Those Digidesign guys are just doing laps around the AVID software developers. To be fair, I think ProTools is a much more focused product whereas video software can scatter your resources trying to do so much.

I have a question. From what I have been reading in this thread, AVID bought Softimage and got XSI, DNA, and Alienbrain. What role did DNA play with Softimage? Did it work with the 3D Software? Or was it a standalone product?

cresshead
10-28-2008, 01:03 PM
I wonder if as a result of this sale, we will see a tighter integration among the surviving apps?
They would be Luxology, Project Messiah,Houdini, Blender,Pixologic and who knows even Maxon.

Maybe a strategic partnership with a big company (like ADOBE) is in order for everyone who is not under the control of Autodesk.

imho the two words 'like' and 'adobe' simply cannot be put next to each other!
talk about choosing the worst company to arrive and save the day!

try living in the uk and being an adobe user for prices...
then look at their bloated old tech under performing software...

i'd soon have EA take over..and that's saying something!:cat:

robertoortiz
10-28-2008, 01:12 PM
imho the two words 'like' and 'adobe' simply cannot be put next to each other!
talk about choosing the worst company to arrive and save the day!

try living in the uk and being an adobe user for prices...
then look at their bloated old tech under performing software...

i'd soon have EA take over..and that's saying something!:cat:
Us Yanks sometimes dont know how good we have it in terms of prices.


And you are right on your comments on their technology, but man, they got a HUGE user base.

cresshead
10-28-2008, 01:20 PM
watch photoshop disapear as 'steam age computing' once some smart dev outfit make a image editing app but node based not layer based.

and really adobe made their mark with photoshop which is quite similar to microsoft office's 'word'...the most installed word editing app and the most installed picture editing app.

now if apple went on a spending spree and bought houdini, zbrush, modo, and cinema
and put pixar rendermen as the default renderer...

or..if pixar entered the frame with a FULL 3d app...

Dexter2999
10-28-2008, 01:31 PM
watch photoshop disapear as 'steam age computing' once some smart dev outfit make a image editing app but node based not layer based.

and really adobe made their mark with photoshop which is quite similar to microsoft office's 'word'...the most installed word editing app and the most installed picture editing app.

now if apple went on a spending spree and bought houdini, zbrush, modo, and cinema
and put pixar rendermen as the default renderer...

or..if pixar entered the frame with a FULL 3d app...

I hope Apple keeps their hands off the apps you mentioned. Look what they did to Shake. Largely made it Apple only, charged through the nose for the Linux version then pretty much shelved it altogether it seems. I have read the claims that something better was coming but I don't see it.

duellestyle
10-28-2008, 01:36 PM
humm I think that the only way to survive is.....

NEWTEK BUY AUTODESK !!!!!!

hahahahahaa :D

Titus
10-28-2008, 01:40 PM
Well, I think AVID went overboard when they bought Pinnacle. I think the whole Liquid market was ill conceived.

All they every really needed to do was lower the price of the Media Composer Software only solution. That was the item to compete with Final Cut Pro, not AVID Express or ExpressDV. And at $2,500 it was just too high to compete effectively.

Well, Avid and FCP hold two different niches. Avid is seen as the "Rolls Royce of non-linear editing" while FCP is "the app my cousin has in his room". No client of mine will finish a commercial using FCP, they will use the Nitris room. We all know both have the same features, but clients pay the bills.

Lightwolf
10-28-2008, 01:43 PM
No client of mine will finish a commercial using FCP, they will use the Nitris room. We all know both have the same features, but clients pay the bills.
You have cheap clients... it should be at least an iQ, and if you can't afford that a Smoke :D

Cheers,
Mike

Titus
10-28-2008, 01:50 PM
You have cheap clients... it should be at least an iQ, and if you can't afford that a Smoke :D

Oh man! the Smoke is a door stop here :D.

Lightwolf
10-28-2008, 01:56 PM
Oh man! the Smoke is a door stop here :D.
It must be a new one, they're smaller ;)

Cheers,
Mike

iaef
10-28-2008, 05:31 PM
Why should NT not sell. Let's see...hmmm....LW gets bashed with every release....it never seems good enough for some....we get lampooned with every thing we do...from a simple 3D contest....to having too small a presence at 3D shows.....the economy sucks....hey, AutoD wants to give me $15 million.....SOLD!

If AD wants to go shopping, they surely might be better with Modo, than LW, just because of the pipeline they already have with Maya. :thumbsup:

jin choung
10-28-2008, 10:15 PM
I wonder if as a result of this sale, we will see a tighter integration among the surviving apps?
They would be Luxology, Project Messiah,Houdini, Blender,Pixologic and who knows even Maxon.

Maybe a strategic partnership with a big company (like ADOBE) is in order for everyone who is not under the control of Autodesk.

no.

there's no point. a counter coalition against maya max and xsi is doomed to failure.

it's their world. we just live in it. interoperability WITH THEM is more impotant with each other.

FAAAAAAAAR more.

jin

wacom
10-28-2008, 11:45 PM
There are still a lot of kinks in their armor. They may not be the most "glorious" areas in terms of prestige but they are there.

I was reading a few places that AD might see modo as a competitor. I and others thought it was ludicrous, HOWEVER if you look at where AD makes some of it's serious money, which isn't in films/games/broadcast you can see they DO have some competition nibbling away at the edges or holding their own.

Engineering, industrial design, kiosk design, rapid viz for arch and such- they do have some serious competition in these areas that either innovates faster or is much cheaper/better in some way.

This kind of goes along with what many have said- they didn't purchase Alias as much for Maya as for studio.

I visited the Modo site and noticed direct import/export with Rhino curves surfaces! They also have a partnership with SolidWorks. This is a good indication of who has found and started to use MODO along side game developers etc. and I don't remember them going after that market directly...

These people need minimal animation and FX- and Modo DOES supply most of the rest...so...

This is why I think there is a huge area left of the 3D market to grow- where AD is weakest IMHO- the pure viz market and "lower level" broadcast. These are the areas that C4D, Modo, LW etc. are strongest on a price and feature level and I think it's a good niche to fill. I'm not saying these apps shouldn't/aren't/can't be used for film etc., just that the greater 3D market is far from wrapped up and finished.

None of the AD products, regardless of what Cresshead might say, control these markets. Funny thing is they make developers HUGE oodles of cash in actual seats bought...

Serling
10-29-2008, 12:00 AM
Avid needed to get rid of Softimage because it needed the capital to grow it's non-linear editing market, primarily due to the major inroads Apple and Adobe have made there.

I played with the XSI trial for a few days, but after having worked with Lightwave almost a year, icons drive me nuts. (Call me crazy but - as an educated adult - I can read and it's so much easier to find what I'm looking for in Lightwave.)

It seems Autodesk is in the same position Avid was in 10 years ago: buying up as much stuff as they could to be a "one-stop shop" for all your audio, editing and 3D needs. I can't imagine Autodesk continuing to develop and support all three apps (Maya, 3DS and XSI), but time will tell.

OTOH, if I were a betting man, I'd say XSI will eventually be positioned to compete head-to-head with Lightwave (and others) at this price point.

Illigitimus non carborundum, Newtek.

jin choung
10-29-2008, 12:32 AM
There are still a lot of kinks in their armor.

the term is "chinks in the armor" and in that case, i am horribly offended by your racial slur.

: )

yeah, no doubt the areas that you refer to are viable (if unglamorous and niche) marketplaces...

don't know about you but i usually get excited about cgi reading about it in cinefx and 3dworld and stuff... not in "product design monthly". but it's viable but imo still crumbs left over by autodesk eating our lunch. : )

and actually, in as much as you have motherfing PIXAR using modo for wall-e and stuff, there are opportunities even in their neighborhood. but in this, it is dependent that we can work in their established pipelines likely to be built on maya.

so yeah, i think coop with the 800lb gorilla is more important than trying to form a splintercell opposition party.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyway, since all those apps were out of my degree of price comfort anyway, this affects me zero.

i don't think innovation will lack AT ALL because of the behemoth of hollywood has a foot on the neck of the mini-behemoth of autodesk. the state of cg will be fine.

and lots of competition including sidefx, maxon, luxology and the blender foundation.

no fear. no big deal.

irksome and disagreeable probably - but not at all dramatic or apocalyptic.

jin

pooby
10-29-2008, 06:41 AM
I played with the XSI trial for a few days, but after having worked with Lightwave almost a year, icons drive me nuts. (Call me crazy but - as an educated adult - I can read and it's so much easier to find what I'm looking for in Lightwave.)


XSI is totally text except a few icons in the texture editor. I suspect that you were probably using the mod tool on beginner mode.

bobakabob
10-29-2008, 07:00 AM
irksome and disagreeable probably - but not at all dramatic or apocalyptic.


Perhaps, but I'd also add "profoundly - nay morbidly - depressing".

For those of us in the Newtek / Lux / Maxon sphere, XSI's superior CA tools were just within reach and a perfect pipeline fit with LW, Modo and ZBrush. Integration of Point Oven made XSI Lightwave friendly. What will happen to that now?

Autodesk's monopoly will surely mean remaining competitors will be frozen out of future pipeline and file exchange developments. Innovation will slow - where's the motivation? They also have a license to print money and in a formidable position to charge what they like for subscriptions. They might make a big deal of Max prices being relatively stable but it's already vastly overpriced and in the UK and Europe we've always payed twice as much for their software by comparison to the US. Newtek and Maxon are fair to their customers why not the big corporations?

Then there's the stranglehold on training and education as "serious" institutions will be forced to buy into "industry standard" product line... followed by world domination...

Sorry, just convinced myself it is apocalyptic :D

bobakabob
10-29-2008, 07:03 AM
Pooby is that a CGI Bowie / Ziggy you've created? It looks amazing.

Any links for a (slightly obsessive) fan?

robertoortiz
10-29-2008, 08:04 AM
no.

there's no point. a counter coalition against maya max and xsi is doomed to failure.

it's their world. we just live in it. interoperability WITH THEM is more impotant with each other.

FAAAAAAAAR more.

jin

If we play their game we lose...That simple.
They will make FBX their standard of communication between all their 3d assets. And they will have, as their say, home court advantage.

We should play our own game and continue to go after smaller shops and individual users. The users who will be hit HARD by this sale.

If possible I would suggest to continue supporting the FBX format (as long Autodesk allows it), but I think there is more future in open formats like Collada.


One of the least publicized things that NewTek has done a part of their 9x release is their expansion of the support of other 3D formats..(Collada, FBX and OBJ I/O)


Jin I strongly feel this Sale is a great chance for NT. A LOT of people are PISSED at Avid for this. People who would have laughed at NewTek a year ago, will pay attention now to their latest release.

And honestly I feel that the pattern of a diversification in the 3d market will continue. We will new in the next few years more and more 3rd party programs that specialize in certain areas (Animation, Modeling, etc). And open formats will be the common language among them.

And about other markets...


Well here is the thing, Right now there is a growing niche market in for 3d in the Graphic Design market.

And one company controls that market...
Adobe.

And no matter how much Autodek Grows, Adobe is still a huge monster.

Autodesk is ranked 12th...
Adobe is ranked 9th

http://www.softwaretop100.org/list.php?page=1
Not only that they are serious about making 3d a significant part of their pipeline
The irony is that market needs badly a reasonable priced/ easy to use 3d app.
It is a niche market that has a HUGE user base.

Lightwolf
10-29-2008, 08:12 AM
If possible I would suggest to continue supporting the FBX format (as long Autodesk allows it), but I think there is more future in open formats like Collada.
...
One of the least publicized things that NewTek has done a part of their 9x release is their expansion of the support of other 3D formats..(Collada, FBX and OBJ I/O)
That could of course backfire, afaik the Collada implementation is from the FBX SDK as provided by AD as well - which means that NT is currently at their mercy in that regard (not only, I presume eyeon is using the same SDK for Fusion 6).

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
10-29-2008, 09:06 AM
[QUOTE=

And no matter how much Autodek Grows, Adobe is still a huge monster.

Autodesk is ranked 12th...
Adobe is ranked 9th

[/QUOTE]

adobe control 'flat stuff' not 3d:D

autodesk control most but not all by a long margin in 3d now.

MooseDog
10-29-2008, 10:26 AM
...this Sale is a great chance for NT....

:agree:

small and nimble, especially in a niche software market, will always be successful. you can't make the gorilla go away, but you can run circles around him.

analogy time :D.....years ago you read, all over the place, about how wal-mart was destroying america, destroying mom-n-pop local based stores. what wal-mart "destroyed" were businesses that couldn't or wouldn't change or respond to wal-mart's sales strategy. over time, some very clever people wrote very clever stuff about how exactly one does respond to wal-mart (or insert national box chain here as well) so that recently, local retail businesses have been doing quite well.

the missing key to small and nimble is to add innovative and knowledgeable and responsive to your markets. i seems to me that newtek does possess this, to some degree, but it's really gotta come to the fore now.

wacom
10-29-2008, 03:40 PM
I played with the XSI trial for a few days, but after having worked with Lightwave almost a year, icons drive me nuts. (Call me crazy but - as an educated adult - I can read and it's so much easier to find what I'm looking for in Lightwave.)



Uh...Icons? Are you talking about the crappy shelf that only comes up if you enable it? It was put there for Maya users. Otherwise the US is fairly to almost 95% "icon" free. It's the closest thing to LW and modo out there in those respects.

Not saying the LW UI isn't over all the way to go, just saying...well did you really use XSI?

wacom
10-29-2008, 04:02 PM
adobe control 'flat stuff' not 3d:D

autodesk control most but not all by a long margin in 3d now.

I'd agree with you if it were not for the fact that 99% of the print and web people I work with don't even know the name of any other 3D package sans Maya- at which when they mention it they get a frightened expression all over their faces.

With that- many of them are more than happy to just plop down a 3D file into PS, add a few textures/color changes and call it good. Many of them, like me, also buy one of the bundles. If Adobe ever packaged in a half way good and user friendly 3D application aimed at that market (viz marketing and print illustration) in the bundles there would be no reason for the company to look else where- adobe drones are just that way.

Insert 3D app into the creative suite or MC that does basic animation, has good GI lighting studio like presets, generates vector files for flash and illustrator and integrate it and that market will be mostly locked up for some time.

Newtek made the right move IMHO in that partnership- it needs to be exploited more.

parm
10-29-2008, 05:23 PM
Well here is the thing, Right now there is a growing niche market in for 3d in the Graphic Design market.

And one company controls that market...
Adobe.



Looks like Strata (http://www.strata.com/strata3d_55new.asp) is a little ahead of the curve on that one. Even it's interface looks like enough like Photoshop, to make 2d illustrators and designers feel at home.

jin choung
10-29-2008, 05:39 PM
If we play their game we lose...That simple.


and if you try to make "united apps against autodesk" coalition "we lose". that's simple too.

WHY WOULD ANYONE CHANGE? a huge chunk of AD's business is from clients for whom the cost of software is an incidental expense. that certainly doesn't include ME but i simply don't see someone at ILM comparing the price of lw vs. maya and saying geeeeee, maybe we should think it over.

seriously, at this point, the autodesk 3d apps are more entrenched in the industry (film and tv) than windows is today...

kinda like going back a few years and say "alright, if beos and red hat and all those other guys can just get together we can be a viable option against M$!!!".

doesn't and won't work.

and there's NOTHING that will ACTUALLY bring sidefx and newtek and maxon and modo and etc to get together because all their interests are so disparate... i daresay newtek may care more about their video business than they do about lw.

and as for adobe... ack. might as well get AD to start making a photoshop competitor. not their core competency.
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but it's no different today than it was before the acquisition.

everyone HAD their niche before. they HAVE THE SAME NICHES TODAY. we get a tiny piece of the pie but fortunately the pie is large enough to sustain everyone.

as i said, it's AD's world. it's their table. it's their food. we get the scraps. and that's just the way it is.

just as it is with M$ and photoshop and other quasi-monopolies.

jin

jin choung
10-29-2008, 05:41 PM
adobe control 'flat stuff' not 3d:D

autodesk control most but not all by a long margin in 3d now.

right, when you say "adobe own the design space" this is ONLY IN REGARD TO "FLAT STUFF".

they have as much of a footprint in 3d as man on the moon....

jin

Dexter2999
10-29-2008, 06:16 PM
and as for adobe... ack. might as well get AD to start making a photoshop competitor. not their core competency.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
jin

I swear Jin, if AD buys Corel, I'm gonna hunt you down mister!:devil:

jin choung
10-29-2008, 10:23 PM
Autodesk's monopoly will surely mean remaining competitors will be frozen out of future pipeline and file exchange developments. Innovation will slow - where's the motivation?

in regards to both - the key lies in one place:

THEIR CLIENTS.

many houses and pipelines interface maya with houdini and massive and zbrush and lw etc. interoperability is desirable not just by their lesser competitors but by the people who use autodesk products.

also, like the DEFENSE INDUSTRY, cgi is governed less by what other contractors are doing and more by what THE CLIENT WANTS TO DO. contractors will then scamper off and try to build a better mousetrap but the needs of the war define the features.

and unlike the defense industry, AD is also in competition WITH their clients. R&D at large facilities cater completely to the needs of the industry and an inability to keep up will drive even more of production into proprietary solutions.

finally computer graphics is not just our hobby and work but an academic discipline... many features in modern 3d apps come not from the cgi industry but from universities and researchers.

so yeah...

NO FEAR FOR LACK OF INNOVATION! in my mind this is a RIDICULOUS concern.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

finally,

LARGE AND DOMINANT is a blessing and a curse.

even if your nearest competitor is 20 miles behind and 1/100th your size, if they get a feature that becomes desirable that you don't have, all of a sudden you look like a slow poke chump.

just as M$ must keep abreast (heh heh... breast... heh heh) of commercially negligible competitors like osx and linux, so will AD be driven by a desire to outshine chump change like us.

jin

jin choung
10-29-2008, 10:23 PM
I swear Jin, if AD buys Corel, I'm gonna hunt you down mister!:devil:

haha : )

jin

Larry_g1s
10-29-2008, 10:26 PM
the term is "chinks in the armor" and in that case, i am horribly offended by your racial slur.

: )

Classic....lol that was classic. Props Jin :thumbsup:

robertoortiz
10-30-2008, 08:16 AM
I'd agree with you if it were not for the fact that 99% of the print and web people I work with don't even know the name of any other 3D package sans Maya- at which when they mention it they get a frightened expression all over their faces.

With that- many of them are more than happy to just plop down a 3D file into PS, add a few textures/color changes and call it good. Many of them, like me, also buy one of the bundles. If Adobe ever packaged in a half way good and user friendly 3D application aimed at that market (viz marketing and print illustration) in the bundles there would be no reason for the company to look else where- adobe drones are just that way.

Insert 3D app into the creative suite or MC that does basic animation, has good GI lighting studio like presets, generates vector files for flash and illustrator and integrate it and that market will be mostly locked up for some time.

Newtek made the right move IMHO in that partnership- it needs to be exploited more.

Amen!
Most hard core designers just want to get product out the door.
Trust me I do design work as part of my duties and the turnover of the work is nuts.

And they don't have the time to use, let alone learn a complicated 3D app.
Of course there are exceptions, but I assure you all they are not the rule.


Newtek has a golden opportunity right now. None of the Autodesk core acquisitions in the 3D world targets this market.

Lightwave can do it.

But first, we need to have a seamless integration with the Adobe suite of products.

And I would suggest into the idea of developing a "custom" Lighwave interface for graphic designers, keeping in mind their core needs.

Rendition is one HELL of a good indicator that they know this.
http://www.newtek.com/rendition/

I would suggest to expand this idea for ALL the Adobe suite of
products. With special emphasis BTW on After Effects.

(For example it would be cool to get LW vector renders in Illustrator,
or custom vector animations in Flash)

Sarford
10-30-2008, 08:32 AM
Amen!
For example it would be cool to get LW vector renders in Illustrator,
or custom vector animations in Flas

This is already possible with the plug-in Swift 3D for Light-Wave, its a kind of flash and eps renderer.

wacom
10-30-2008, 08:59 AM
...And they don't have the time to use, let alone learn a complicated 3D app.
Of course there are exceptions, but I assure you all they are not the rule.


Of coarse there is one area that it does solve time that seems complicated. You don't have to use it...but it has saved my *** a bunch of times.

Enter the history stack. Here is a simple example.

Just the other day I had a client ask me for a "huminoid" that was basicly gender neutral with limited facial topology. I cranked it out (in Zbrush with Zspheres because it needed to have some complex anatomy but it's hands and feet needed to be "mitten like" and because I had 1 hour to do it in after getting off the phone) and got it off to them. Well they loved it sans the head- they forgot to tell me it needed to be a perfect sphere...but with a little edge flow/smoothing between the neck and head.

I go back to my zbrush model and it will not open!!! Shame on me for not saving a good back up file but there is a deadline.

I take the craptastic obj file (dense and triangulated), bring it into a certain application, put a sphere mesh where the head is, paint a weight map on the existing head, and then connect that to a shrink map deformer (moves points to nearest selected object basicly). Great- now I've got a guy with a round head and mesh is still clean, send that off to them- oops they forgot to tell me the head needed to be MUCH bigger.

No problem- selected all my parts (the sphere and the huminoid), made it a model and duplicated (cloned) that two more times. Grabbed their respective spheres and made them enlarged a few times- so now there are three sizes for them to work with. Saved a live file with stack intact just in case they wanted a small size change. Zipped them and sent them to the client. Job done in 1.5hrs total. Client happy.

I could have used a Boolean to do it, but the mesh needed to be VERY clean, I could of taken a sphere and manually welded it to it, but that would take for ever. I could have counted the edges or points around the neck and then made a sphere with that many divisions and then weld the edges, but every time I started to count I lost track. I could have looked up in the manual the way to have the program "count" your edges as a number etc. but that would have taken more time- and maybe not have worked in the end. I needed a smooth transition on a dense mesh that would not be sub-divided etc. and in a short time frame.

So yeah- this is a simple, yet illustrated example of where a history stack can save even the smallest of jobs- print/film/broadcast or otherwise esp. if the deadline is tight. I use it a lot for more complex things of coarse...but it's good for all sorts of tasks where you have very limited time and VERY picky clients!

I'm 100% confident thought that LW is getting at least a modeling and deformation history stack in 10.

wacom
10-30-2008, 09:05 AM
This is already possible with the plug-in Swift 3D for Light-Wave, its a kind of flash and eps renderer.

Unfortunately Sarford is totally correct.

Erain is a horrible company with horrible support IMHO, but they seem the only company actively working on 3D to vector that produces semi small files and human editable results. That said I've used the stand alone version and it's great if you want to hit your head against a wall going back to 3D animation in 1985. It's import formats suck butt too. The plugin for LW is over priced- but I bet it would save you a lot of headaches even though they haven't touched it in years.

C4D only outputs to illustrator through the sketch and toon plugin- which is good but pricey. However the files are insanely large and complex and require a lot of manual tweaking before you send them to a client unless you want a call back about your f'd up file structure and point mess. Maybe I've just used it the wrong way though. The flash exporter is trash in that program. Better than nothing...but trash.

That said- LW's toon shader is VERY fast- maybe limited, but fast. I've tried in the past doing VERY large renders and then live tracing them in Illustrator and had good results from it. Give it a go!

bjornkn
10-30-2008, 09:50 AM
Be aware that Swift LW plugin does not work with LW versions later than v9!
It only renders one layer/object.
Erain have been promising a bug fix since late 2007. !

sadkkf
10-30-2008, 01:06 PM
I just heard about this today and am already depressed.

I, as HRGIGER and others, looked to XSI to pick up where LW fell flat. I guess that's the reason most people use for switching apps, other than price.

This acquisition is clearly bad for us consumers. Was it Jin who pointed out AD now controls TV/FILM/GAMING with their apps? So where's the competition? Where's the urge to expand and develop new technologies? Where do people like me go when I need to create photorealistic fire, smoke, hair and cloth?

Yeah, LW can do all of that, but I'm not too pleased with its implementation. Not enough control or output that doesn't look very realistic.

Not to turn this into a gripe against LW, but I need better 3rd party support. When Photoshop can't do what I need well enough or fast enough, there's a plugin for it. Where are the plugs for LW? I'm asked to create fire and fluids regularly and cloth is becoming popular, but LW grinds to a halt with anything too sophisticated.

What I love about LW is the interface and modeler. Great tools and great workflow for me. I'll probably never stop using it for archvis work -- LWCAD Rules!

LW will almost always be part of my toolset if not for the fact that selling it for $500 or so really doesn't get me much closer to a new package costing $3000 or more.

It's very interesting seeing the selling price of XSI. $35 million? AD probably found that under the cushions of their lobby couches. Why so cheap? It's a great app!

Anyway, after having just bought Max and XSI to learn, I wonder how their development will continue.

wacom
10-30-2008, 01:42 PM
AD doesn't control broadcast believe it or not- that market normally has much smaller teams who are much more budget conscious. Newtek, Maxon and others probably still have a fairly good share of that market.

jaxtone
10-31-2008, 05:38 PM
This is already possible with the plug-in Swift 3D for Light-Wave, its a kind of flash and eps renderer.

Oh My God!

I bought the Swift 3D Plugin a while ago, and man I must say I was dissapointed! What a crap this was really!

So slow I couldn´t even imagine a snail being able to wait for it´s insane rendering times. Have contacted their support for two months now with questions about their software. But you know what?

They haven´t even answered yet. Mayby their slow behaviour is a war on all fronts. Anyway, this software pissed me off! :thumbsdow

WilliamVaughan
10-31-2008, 06:21 PM
http://area.autodesk.com/softimage_announce

jaxtone
11-01-2008, 02:30 AM
Oliver! So you have won shitloads of money on the lottery! :D


:bowdown:That's great news! :rock: I do not feel 'marketed' at all and this does not look like a somewhat helpless move in any way. Good job. Amazing editing - all those 'good will' nods and signs of happy collaboration. And they do not look forced a bit. :thumbsup: I guess I have to jump ship and buy the whole max, maya and softimage combo tomorrow. The future is there. They know. They say.

Greets.
Oliver.

cresshead
11-01-2008, 03:22 AM
whilst there are some LOUD opinions that the autodesk purchase of softimage is 'the end of the world as we know it' you also have to be aware of the silent lack of responses from those who are just getting on with it and using xsi wether it's owned by avid, autodesk or playschool!...they are focused on using the software not *****'in about who owns it.

if..and it's a HUGE 'if' people SO detest autodesk that they're going to give up on xsi in regards upgrades to future xsi releases under autodesk then and only then will there be any impact on what happens to xsi as a product..

in reality who's going to jump ship?

and if they do jump ship...where are they swimming to?
houdini
cinema
modo
lightwave
blender

i reckon the people who jump are the ones that arn't really xsi fanboys...it's like a marriage...thru good and bad times...your surposed to stick with the one you love, much like newtek and the dev of lightwave over the past few years.

and REALLY...who's to say under autodesk it will be bad times?
maybe the only thing to change will be the eula...
__________________

hrgiger
11-01-2008, 04:00 AM
whilst there are some LOUD opinions that the autodesk purchase of softimage is 'the end of the world as we know it'

No, just the end of XSI as we know it.

cresshead
11-01-2008, 04:37 AM
100 people shouting complaints in a crowd of 2000 xsi users does not mean that 2000 are unhappy and complaining.

we've had all this before with the alias buy out...and this is a much smaller userbase
maya's still doing it's thing and maya users still use maya.

toby
11-01-2008, 01:37 PM
your surposed to stick with the one you love, much like newtek and the dev of lightwave over the past few years.
You're supposed to speak with your dollars (or pounds) too. There's nothing wrong with avoiding businesses whose practices you don't agree with - ignoring what companies are doing is certainly worse. And in many cases this kind of deal results in stagnating development and fewer choices at greater expense.

Sarford
11-01-2008, 05:33 PM
100 people shouting complaints in a crowd of 2000 xsi users does not mean that 2000 are unhappy and complaining.

Hmm, I didn't see too many "Hurray, hurray, Softimage is bought by Autodesk!" - threads around. That, in my opinion, shows that more users are pissed than happy.

But... I also think most of those complainers (myself included) are one-man shops or small studio's. I don't think thats the core target group of Autodesk, they target the bigger studio's who don't care what software costs, if you still can update it after two releases and if the EULA allows you to use it abroad or not and if you can sell your software.

wacom
11-02-2008, 07:00 AM
This is going to take a few years to shake out IMHO, so who knows how many original and new XSI users there will be in, say, two years.

The migration from LW and Maya to XSI was a steady trickle until ICE was thrown in the mix- then a torrent of MAYA users started to pour in and a few curious others.

Many of these were people working in small to large studios. They probably wouldn't jump ship ASAP if even the Taliban acquired XSI since so much of their biznezz model is based around long term projects- and changing all your or a major part of your software mid production would not be cost effective or sane.

That said- if something evolved in the next few years that rivaled AD software, looked stable, and had a great licensing structure and a growing user base (or already established) from which to hire- these people would not hesitate to jump ship. The same thing that makes these companies not give a rats *** about AD is the same thing that will make them go where ever else they need to go is later if need be- lack of product loyalty for a number of relatively "good" reasons.

The funny thing is that so many XSI users who worked at studios were the ones who used a trojan horse like approach to get the software into the studio. They often would buy their own copies and use those along side the rest of the team. Finally the people in the studio, after quite some time, would see the benefit to the program and be converted or at least convinced that adding it to the pipe was a good idea. So often it seemed bottom up vs. a top down software decision. In the end what does the company care- if it gets it done should the care who makes it? OK...so if it's the Taliban...