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OOZZEE
10-17-2008, 01:49 PM
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/newsletter/

hi, looks like a $600 price hike to $1495.00

Andyjaggy
10-17-2008, 01:51 PM
If it works like they say it does then it is worth it, otherwise you'll be hard pressed to get many people to fork that out.

AbnRanger
10-17-2008, 02:12 PM
I just noticed that. I think they are targeting that price for the studios and relegating the lesser models to freelancers.I wonder what the upgrade price is.

alvin_cgi
10-17-2008, 02:58 PM
I wondering have they done any (BIG!) improvement on the rendering speed and solved the animation flickering issue!:devil:

calilifestyle
10-17-2008, 03:04 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=162&t=686092

i think its a ploy. If you guys recall this happened when going from 5 to 6. At sigg one of their Reps did bring up such a case. And even if it now works as advertised ... 50% price jump, please. can you imagine if everything worked this way. No way guys, please it worked for XSI but look at the difference.

rezman
10-17-2008, 03:59 PM
In this economy I think they are in for a big surprise as far as sales.
:thumbsdow

virtualcomposer
10-17-2008, 04:23 PM
I think everyone should not buy it for a while, E-on will get scared and put a great big sale out. I agree about the economy part. How does E-on expect people to afford that. I wonder if the $500.00 version is just as good without all the extra stuff I would never use in the first place. Hmmmm. For that kind of money, they should improve their tech support as well.

JamesCurtis
10-17-2008, 04:45 PM
I agree with all the points!!!

Money is tight for me as well!!!

Who knows though, they do say special introductory pricing on Vue7 Extreme!!

Have to wait and see.

IMI
10-17-2008, 05:20 PM
It seems "Complete" is more... well, more complete than "Infinite". How's that again? If infinite means, not finite, then how is Complete more complete? Or has Complete become infinite now? If so, where does that leave Infinite? It's been rendered finite, making the earlier claim to eternally-reaching software a lie?
:D

Used to be you could buy Vue in simpler flavors, and you knew what you were getting. There was 1, 2, 2.1, 3, 3.1, 4... 4.1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14..... 5... and it was all less than 500 bucks, well, until Vue 5 came out.
Then you had Vue 5 Junior, Vue 5 Apprentice, Vue 5 Journeyman, Vue 5 Master... then they did a bit of backpedaling and released Vue 5 Elementary, which didn't go over so well, so they came out with Vue 5 Sooper-Dooper, which quickly became Vue 5 Totally Excellent, then Vue 5 Almost Complete, and finally, Vue 5 Infinitely-Soon-To-Be-Improved-Upon.

I think I'd just be happy with Ozone Almost There But Not Quite...

virtualcomposer
10-17-2008, 06:13 PM
My question though is can I spend $400 on Vue Complete and get what I want out of it. I just want to have pretty mountains, skies, and ecosystems. I'm a Lightwaver all the way and would use Vue for only these things. What's so good that I have to spend an extra $500 or so for the Vue Infinite?

IMI
10-17-2008, 07:19 PM
My question though is can I spend $400 on Vue Complete and get what I want out of it. I just want to have pretty mountains, skies, and ecosystems. I'm a Lightwaver all the way and would use Vue for only these things. What's so good that I have to spend an extra $500 or so for the Vue Infinite?

I'm not sure (and I don't feel like wandering through numerous pages on their website), but I think "Complete" (at $599) is... far less complete. Maybe no, or limited network rendering, maybe no "eco system". Who knows, but the next step up, Infinite, is $300 more and probably contains everything except for the xStream plugin. The xStream plugin for LW is, of course, the only way you'll get your Vue scenes into Layout. As it is now, you can export terrains and generate bitmap texture maps for them out of procedurals as .lwo and import them into LW that way. Have been able to do that since at least Vue 3 though.

I don't think though that any of the Vue versions short of xStream allow you to actually import an environment, plants, eco systems or animation. xStream allows you to actually host your Vue scene within LW, and have access to the best of both worlds - including Vue's slow render engine...

I could be wrong about some of those details though. It's probably all there hidden in their spider web of a website, if you search hard enough, and are able to make it past the reviews, accolades, acievements, credits and backpatting they've put up as a barrier to any real, easily-accessed information.

Nah, I'm only kidding... sort of. But the vast majority of the site seems to be devoted to pricing. Indeed, in 5 minutes at the site I learned more about pricing than features....

jasonwestmas
10-17-2008, 07:27 PM
Lol, I rather buy syflex or Real Flow for that price, what a joke. I'll just stick to my free Vue5 Infinite package ;)

IMI
10-17-2008, 07:33 PM
It's still kind of silly though -If you're going to call something complete, it ought to be complete. As it turns out, Complete is less complete than Infinite, while "infinite" implies... waht? Never-ending? Eternal? I'm not sure how that can be applied to software.

Maybe eventually your Infinite installation evolves into xStream? No, that can't be right.
So then you have xStream, which apparently is as much more infinite than Infinite is complete over Complete.
Someone please stop me - I could go on like this all night. ;)

Yeah, I know, they're divided into categories: Products for 3D Artists and Small Studios, and Products for Professionals...

Boy, I'm glad I learned that distinction before it became too late! I want to be a Professional one day! Sure glad I know now not to apply to a "small studio", or else I might never make it.
Or, I think I mean if I work for a small studio I won't be a complete professional. I guess what I really want is to be Infinitely professional? No, xStreme-ly professional - that's what it is. I think. ;)

OOZZEE
10-17-2008, 07:43 PM
It's still kind of silly though -If you're going to call something complete, it ought to be complete. As it turns out, Complete is less complete than Infinite, while "infinite" implies... waht? Never-ending? Eternal? I'm not sure how that can be applied to software.

Maybe eventually your Infinite installation evolves into xStream? No, that can't be right.
So then you have xStream, which apparently is as much more infinite than Infinite is complete over Complete.
Someone please stop me - I could go on like this all night. ;)



I dont want to keep you up all night but please go on... I totally agree.

they have stupid names, stupid support and really stupid licensing...

and now looks like they are going the autodesk way of stupid pricing.

Silkrooster
10-18-2008, 12:04 AM
I like Vue for what it does. But I have a hard time grasping that Vue is a better all around program than Lightwave. If Vue is $1495.00 then Lightwave should be three or four thousand. Vue's price should be cut to 1/2 of what it is if not more.
Silk

prometheus
10-18-2008, 12:49 AM
sounds bad!

well if only the newtek team could get in to applying environment and landscape tools in lightwave it would be The deal.

former ogo taiki was way ahead years ago,(for atmospheres) but has frozen.and to hard to setup and to slow.

It would be nice with a general monster overhaul in lightwaves all volumetric handlers included with a preview system that progressively renders every item aspect, that together with L-system and instancing for trees and some normal polysculpting tools and terrain procedural shaders designed for terrain.
Then there wouldnīt be much of a need for vue xstream. and guess what..Imagine that Newtek would probably steal some of those vue customers
No fuzz with zync comping or matching, itīs all good in Lightwave and works with everything.
Please allow me to dream a little.

Michael

Silkrooster
10-18-2008, 01:17 AM
sounds bad!

well if only the newtek team could get in to applying environment and landscape tools in lightwave it would be The deal.

former ogo taiki was way ahead years ago,(for atmospheres) but has frozen.and to hard to setup and to slow.

It would be nice with a general monster overhaul in lightwaves all volumetric handlers included with a preview system that progressively renders every item aspect, that together with L-system and instancing for trees and some normal polysculpting tools and terrain procedural shaders designed for terrain.
Then there wouldnīt be much of a need for vue xstream. and guess what..Imagine that Newtek would probably steal some of those vue customers
No fuzz with zync comping or matching, itīs all good in Lightwave and works with everything.
Please allow me to dream a little.

Michael
Now that would be cool.
Silk

prometheus
10-18-2008, 02:42 AM
It sure would be cool, and it would build a strong case to use Lightwave even more in production, it has itīs strong values in that most stuff is so easy and fast to set up compared to other apps and with that an awesome fast render.

Im not sure if they have that planned right now since they also have to face other stuff to be able to compete out there, such as dynamics and particles and fluids and even more character improvements.

But a strong environment and landscape implementation would probably build a strong case for using Lightwave more.
I am not sure whatīs out there for the other Full 3d applications, maya or cinema or houdini.

The thing about vue that makes it sweet, well itīs specialized in landscape ofcourse, but I have the feeling that itīs mostly how fast you can get the things in there and with a progressive viewer showing the clouds,trees,water and terrains directly, so that would require a similar previewer inside of lightwave.
and ogo taiki is the closest thing to the atmosphere,not near in speed to vue thou and it hasnt got that nice air propertie setup as vue has, and vues spectral atmosphere does a good job together with the shading and lights on the clouds.
so either a complete vamp up or something new for lightwave atmospheres.

Then theres the trees, not that fond of vue trees except for the eco system options and variation and the fact that you can simply add wind forces to it.
So somekind of L-system ecosystem instancing would be nice.

Terrains in vue..well its easy to sculpt in lower resolutions, and procedural terrains are sweet but slow, but worldmachine or geocontrols terrain editors gives more realistic stuff.
Also vues opengl sucks, itīs way more nicer having a subpatch terrain with an image map from worldmachine displaced in Lightwave, then trying to view it in vue.

so lets vamp up ogo taiki, or create something like it but better faster, and a full progressive viewer, together with a sculpting tool in layout and perhaps a terrain shader or plugin ala world machine and then introduce an L-system based treegenerator with wind dynamics, voila there you go..no need to switch app, no need to loose Time.

Michael

virtualcomposer
10-18-2008, 02:35 PM
Oh man that would be cool! If LW could do quality landscaping scenes, E-on would go out of business! I also think that would probably put Maya & other programs out of business if LW could do nearly everything. Don't get me wrong, I love Vue but they seem to be greedy with their software and the render engine is pretty slow and terrible tech support. I wonder if there's a better landscape type program that is better and cost less?

Verlon
10-18-2008, 09:50 PM
unless they have some pretty generous upgrade pricing, I think I might have to stick with Vue 6 Xtream.

virtualcomposer
10-18-2008, 09:58 PM
I might just stick to my Vue 5 Infinite. I'm sure they've done some nice updates but is it worth $1500. They have a terrible upgrade plan. UGGG.

IMI
10-18-2008, 11:11 PM
Far as trees and other plants go, IMO, XFrog is a viable alternative. There's not much limit to what you can create, and then in LW you can, of course animate them with wind effects, using bones and morphs or any of the other usual ways. Plus now with LW's fur and hair, you can actually make plants with that, just need to make the "hairs" larger and have some texture and trans maps for the leaves. William Vaughan uploaded a cool video here recently showing that.
Or for that matter, the Magic Bevel tool is *really* good for creating tree branches and spindly things, and simple transmapped planes can be used as foliage.

Terrains, of course, as mentioned by prometheus, can be easily enough made in LW, and you can bake any kind of combination of procedurals and/or lighting into a texture map for them with the surface baking camera or surface baker shader. A little more work than doing it in Vue, but, really, just a little - it's a fairly straightforward and simple process.

Obviously though the big thing lacking in LW is environment. We have Sky Tracer, and Sky Tracer 2, which are cool, plus a rudimentary fog, but none of that is any comparison at all to what Vue can do. Pity they seem to have lost interest in further developing those Layout plugins.

Vue also makes Ozone - at least they did, don't know if they still do or if it's been updated to 64 bit and LW 9.5. If I had to guess, I'd figure they'd abandon it, forcing people to pay alot more for xStream...

Yeah, e-on's pricing (in addition to its naming conventions) is ridiculous. Vue began as a hobbyist app at a reasonable price, and had some relatively slow progress at first, but once they started getting more success under their belt, they began releasing more, more quickly. And, their releases were *very* buggy, but they were always working on the next upgrade instead - the next moneymaker - more than they were working on patches and fixes.

Now their prices are just off the chain. I'm sure they look at it as a matter of fact that big pro studios are using their products to create big money productions, and there's no real arguing with that, nor is there any reason why they *shouldn't* charge according to that idea. Autodesk does, as do other software companies. Then again, ZBrush is helping out ALOT in movies and games and Pixologic seems to be unconcerned about raking their customers over the coals for a license...

Makes me appreciate Newtek more, it does. As LW has continued to advance, the price has dropped considerably over the years. That may change soon, but I doubt it's going to be anything ridiculous or excessive.

virtualcomposer
10-19-2008, 12:57 AM
It seems like Newtek has the costumer in mind though. Being on these forums and having Wiliam, Chuck and the rest of the gang talking to all of us brings, I believe, a more personal touch. I also see how Newtek is more concerned about getting their product right and into the hands of people who aren't rich but have the ability to pursue their dream as animators. If it wasn't for Newtek, I, along with many other people wouldn't have the chance at anything trying to save $6-10,000 for Maya and other programs. Newtek seems to be a more personalized business.

AbnRanger
10-19-2008, 08:26 AM
I wondering have they done any (BIG!) improvement on the rendering speed and solved the animation flickering issue!:devil:
Reducing something that shouldn't be there in the first place (flickering), is no reason to jack up the price, and even if they speed up the rendering 2-3 times faster, it's still dog slow, and in no way justifies such a steep price hike...especially considering how buggy the last version was. Paying that much for what is essentially a beta version isn't going to get it. That price hike probably cost them half their sales or worse.

jasonwestmas
10-19-2008, 08:27 AM
It seems like Newtek has the costumer in mind though. Being on these forums and having Wiliam, Chuck and the rest of the gang talking to all of us brings, I believe, a more personal touch. I also see how Newtek is more concerned about getting their product right and into the hands of people who aren't rich but have the ability to pursue their dream as animators. If it wasn't for Newtek, I, along with many other people wouldn't have the chance at anything trying to save $6-10,000 for Maya and other programs. Newtek seems to be a more personalized business.

Yep, I was pretty impressed with LW when I first used it 9 years ago. I wanted to buy max but started with Animation Master because Max was too much$ and had none of the good plugins out of the box. I quickly abandoned AM when I tried Lightwave, just because the rendering and detailing capabilities were so much better.

trick
10-19-2008, 08:50 AM
I'm still amazed that there are so many people working with E-on's Vue Infinite or XStream. Because of the impressive demo images and movies I have tried every trial they released and even have Vue 5 Inf as an addon with my Lw9 upgrade some time ago (or was it v8 ?). I have been working in 3D since 20 years now and there never has been a program that has so many crashes (both consistent AND random) as Vue. I know that there are a lot of possibilities resulting in crashes with such a complex and OpenGL dependant program as Vue is, but if you are somehow going to depend professionally on Vue, you will be in for a VERY hard ride. As an artist you will absolutely have to enjoy your work to keep being creative, but with Vue this is simply not possible. Unless you are prepared to report all the issues on a one to one error report to Vue support !! For large terrains with lots of green stuff I either use Max-Vray(proxy)-Groundwiz or Lw-HDInstance and both are a real joy to work with and get near the same results as Vue; you just need some smarter thinking, but you will spare yourself a lot of headaches. I really, really wished Vue had the stability which is absolutely needed to keep being creative instead of endless disappointments. On paper Vue is one of most impressive tools around. But until I can use this tool (nearly) crashproof on the same system where my other tools work (nearly) crashproof, I just can not see the advantages of using it !!!

And then after 6 versions in a time like this raising the price...8~

Dexter2999
10-19-2008, 10:54 AM
Not sure if it is accurate or not but I just took a look at the pricing index. Vue 6 xStream download is list at $995. The sidegrade to Vue6 xStream is from Vue 5 Infinite download is $599.

So, $395 less for an upgrade/sidegrade?

Upgrade to Vue 6 xStream from Vue 5 xStream is $299. So that is $696 less?

So with this set of numbers I am guessing the Vue 7 upgrade will be somewhere between $800 and $1,000.

Does that seem accurate?

prometheus
10-19-2008, 11:45 AM
The word about vue that seems to be spread through out effects studios seems to be that itīs so fast to learn and

fast to set up, and itīs solid growth and ecosystem seems to be more efficient and easy to work with compared to

everything else.

Well we have Hd instance but we canīt get "True variations" unless making different kind of trees, and still we have

to create the trees or rely on other tree generators such as x-frog,tree-designe,tree cage,onyx etc..etc.

That sumatra plugin was interesting,if it could work with instances and also creating different tree generations
it could get close to ecosystem.

Learning x-frog or modeling trees takes time,and you still have to get x-frog and I am all for having
serious atmosphere and landscape tools Out of the box in Lightwave.





In vue you have fast acess by simply going to the tree icon or load a plant an paint away or use materials or image

maps to distrubute them.

Taking the best trom that approach but introducing it with L-systems instead would offer Even more control to
tree generation, with options to connect even more different L-systems on to previous built trees, and if they are

implemented with full parametric history it would be easy to simply change or replace L-system trees where and

whenever you like.


The number one thing thou to start with, I would perhaps say that a full preview system is needed, vue previews

Almost Everything, terrain,texture,lights,volumetrics,fog,trees,globa l illumination and radiosity..so whenever a

change is done it automaticly updates the preview instantly in either fast,standard or best quality modes...That is

something rearly seen anywhere else...Terragens preview system is a snail when compared.

Right now we have Fprime and viper, Fprime handles radiosity, lights and object displacements and camera changes,

but it canīt handle volumetrics,& fog as a previewer..hopefully someday thou.
My step suggestions for getting these tools in Lighwave would be something like this.

1. Full preview system..Expand on Fprime..or viper and include it with Lightwave.

2. Create a new volumetric system or get intouch with The developer with Ogo Taiki, itīs the best looking stuff but
Air Atmospheric properties and cloud quality and setup ease, must be improved to match vues wonderful spectral

atmosphere..also itīs way to slow compared to vue.

3. Match ecosystem/and solidgrowth by introducing L-systems ala Houdini, studios working with houdini today would

probably not give a glance at vue since their L-systems seems to be so much more powerful and every branch in the

L-system could be different as to the solid growth system.

Houdini can create great clouds too.However learning Houdini doesnīt seem to be easy..so no wonder other studios

choose vue for landscape mattes.

4. Terrain tools..well, lets start by adding some decent mesh editing tools in layout, I heard that was coming

someday:) and please for the love of god, get a sculpting brush tool in there. Then theres a need for somekind of
Terrain displacement shader with some nifty procedural and erosion filters.


One thing to keep in mind, this should be implemented in an easy acess way, you shouldnīt have to dive in to

learning too much in order to work as an artist, Maybe that is a good reason Many would use vue as a landscape/matte

paint artist.

I was thinking of other applications who might have decent tools for landscaping, Houdini of course, but the steep

learning curve and not that easy to set up makes you think twice.

Then we have carrara wich I tried the demos on, and some of the stuff was pretty good..it has a terrain generator with an even better terrain shader than vue materials and the global illumination on terrains actually looks much
better I think, it also has volumetric clouds that can be instanced..it doesnīt have that same fog and nice airproperties as vue thou.

carrara also have a tree generator that can be instanced all over the terrain with itīs built in instancer..and the trees can be affected by wind too in carra 6 I believe, and also affected by dynamics or exploding them.

Well I Believe Lightwave would literally Gain Terrain with a proper atmospheres and landscape, vegetation tools.

Oh..ps ..sasquatch grass still looks better than polygrass in vue..would be nice if they could show up in

waterreflections thou...and Fiberfx can surely be expanded on too.

I wonder what would be most difficult for the developers, making vue a fuller 3d program with modeling,character animation,hardfx,softbody,particles or
or Creating similar Landscape atmospheric tools for Lightwave.

Sure it will take time and resources but I believe it could make a huge impact on how studios would look at lightwave and would probably utilize it a lot if they are in need for mattes and that seems to be alot in the movie industry today, so why not use lightwave instead if the tools are there and you would get so much more in terms of speedy high quality renders and everything else interactive with it in terms of hardfx,cloth,fur/hair,particles etc.

Michael

prometheus
10-19-2008, 11:47 AM
Geez..this latest reply text from me was stacked up strangly..canīt help it
I have so many Ideas and too much text.

Michael

Andrew March
10-19-2008, 12:04 PM
Vue 7 will be as buggy as hell for a year and a half and then they'll announce Vue 8, it happens with every release from Vue 3 onwards.

Pricing is becoming increasing rediculous and with Cornuconia3d being the only place for semi decent vue content sales will bottom out in no time, with only hardcore users remaining.

IMI
10-19-2008, 12:37 PM
Geez..this latest reply text from me was stacked up strangly..canīt help it
I have so many Ideas and too much text.

Michael

Did you type it out in Notepad, Word, Wordpad, or anything else like that? That's what happens to me if I type in Notepad (in word wrap mode) and resize the Notepad window after I've started, then paste it into the reply field. Screws the return lines up somehow.

prometheus
10-19-2008, 12:40 PM
[QUOTE=IMI;768087]Did you type it out in Notepad, Word, Wordpad, or anything else like that? QUOTE]

yeah exactly, I did that because sometimes Iīm Having hang ups on the computer and I want to save the document if I have much to write.
But yeah..I should have known that.

Michael

Sekhar
10-19-2008, 02:00 PM
It certainly better NOT be. If it is... I most definitely will NOT be upgrading.

What's the case for upgrading even if the upgrade price is half that - $400 to $500? I may have missed this, but what're the benefits of 7 xStream over 6, really?

IMI
10-19-2008, 02:12 PM
What's the case for upgrading even if the upgrade price is half that - $400 to $500? I may have missed this, but what're the benefits of 7 xStream over 6, really?

That's a good question. You certainly can't find an answer to it on e-on's Vue 7 Page (http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/newsletter/), though.

I found this though:


Product availability, detailed pricing and upgrade options, as well as a complete comparative chart will be announced soon.

* A special, time limited introductory pricing will be available on Vue 7 xStream.


And this:


Vue 7 xStream
$1,495.00*
The integrated solution for natural 3D environments. For production houses and digital content creators working with other 3D packages


And several places where they say "more information coming soon"...

We may not know what it's going to do or do better - or what it won't work with and what's been broken, and how much of it is still "buy-as-you-beta"... but we damn sure know how much it will cost. ;)

krimpr
10-19-2008, 03:15 PM
Well I for one am finished with flushing down the toilet with Vue. I've been upgrading since Vue 4 Professional and my current installation of Vue6Xstream crashes my LW 9.5 like a bad virus. Tech support is a joke, the pricing structure and product line definitions are beyond my comprehension anymore, and the ratio between actually using it to create scenes vs. trying to find ways to simply get it to co-operate with my computer almost always leaves me doing my best to create everything that I can in Lightwave anyway. I'm not even interested in new features or improved "this or that", because if it did everything as promised I honestly wouldn't have the need for anything else. The truth is that I have no doubt that they'll move onto V7 without ever finishing debugging V6, and with money as tight as it is I'm simply not going to bite anymore. I'll save my upgrade money for future versions of Lightwave because I have always been able to trust them to deliver software that works and their support is second to none, but as a hobbyist I can't justify gambling any more money with eon anymore. I'd love for Newtek to incorporate many of Vue's features as has been discussed here; I'd have complete faith that they'd be able to make them work as advertised, and it would really round-off their product. Heres hoping that one day it will happen...

dgrigo
10-19-2008, 03:46 PM
I agree with everyone here, and i don't understand why they don't! fix it before supply a new version..
Check this tho, to have an idea of whats coming , i may try an update for the last time if update price is logical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYjmMhMnyH0

Dinos

Dexter2999
10-19-2008, 03:46 PM
Again I am just guessing. If you have already upgraded to Vue 6 xStream the upgrade to Vue 7 xStream will probably be around $500.

I still have Vue5 Infinite at home. We upgraded to Vue 6 Infinite at work. I made some nice stills but never made any useful animations due to flicker.

krimpr
10-19-2008, 04:05 PM
I agree with everyone here, and i don't understand why they don't! fix it before supply a new version..
Check this tho, to have an idea of whats coming , i may try an update for the last time if update price is logical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYjmMhMnyH0

Dinos

Yeah.. that video is certainy an interesting enticer. The problem for me with Eon is that too many issues never seem to be resolved before they introduce new versions. (Flickering, crashes.. etc.) I'd much rather give Newtek my $500 in addition to their regular upgrade price for an optional "Lightwave Landscape Edition" or something to that effect for those who could use something like that. (Acrhviz guys maybe for example..) Just dreaming out loud I suppose, as I know that they already have their own priorities. I hate those "crash to desktop before saving" episodes, especially since I have never had the feeling that Eon was addressing them once they had their money.

dgrigo
10-19-2008, 04:32 PM
I agree so much with you... as i had exchanging email with them..
just to understand my frustration with the VUE on my last email.. i wrote..

"Ok so you say that instead of recompiling the plugin to make it compatible with the existing software i paid for. i have to pay an update to get the functionality.
Ok whats the Phone number to you legal department please?"

And the reply

"Hi Konstantinos,

Support for Lightwave 9.5 will be available in our next version of Vue that will be released shortly.
I understand your frustration, but keeping up with all new releases of products can be a daunting task. If at all possible, we will update Vue 6."

Well what can someone do? just throw out the previous money he spend? or update.. guess i am talking to myself.. as the Xtream version never worked right..

I guess whoever is interested should post something to the support..

Dinos

krimpr
10-19-2008, 05:46 PM
I agree so much with you... as i had exchanging email with them..
just to understand my frustration with the VUE on my last email.. i wrote..

"Ok so you say that instead of recompiling the plugin to make it compatible with the existing software i paid for. i have to pay an update to get the functionality.
Ok whats the Phone number to you legal department please?"

And the reply

"Hi Konstantinos,

Support for Lightwave 9.5 will be available in our next version of Vue that will be released shortly.
I understand your frustration, but keeping up with all new releases of products can be a daunting task. If at all possible, we will update Vue 6."

Well what can someone do? just throw out the previous money he spend? or update.. guess i am talking to myself.. as the Xtream version never worked right..

I guess whoever is interested should post something to the support..

Dinos


I feel your pain dgringo. I've had at least 3 "support tickets" with Eon that I can remember, and 2 telephone calls. The representation in all cases was exactly like yours. I've never even had an opportunity to try those "ventillators" for wind animation for foilge simply because I never was able to to render sequences using the XStream plug in reliably. I know that I could probably use Vue6 standlone and gotten render sequences out of it, but that's not why I paid premium price for Xstream.. I want to use Lightwave. New features are useless unless it's at least reasonably stable, and I would think that as a company who wants to have a loyal following that they should get the software solid before trying to get into peoples pockets again. Why they don't seem to make getting the program to run solidly is baffling to me if they are even remotely interested in establishing a loyal following; E-on must have the highest customer/complaint ratio in the consumer 3d industry. How I wish Newtek would integrate some of these cool features into LW... :agree:

IMI
10-19-2008, 07:43 PM
And the reply

"Hi Konstantinos,

Support for Lightwave 9.5 will be available in our next version of Vue that will be released shortly.
I understand your frustration, but keeping up with all new releases of products can be a daunting task. If at all possible, we will update Vue 6."



..."If at all possible, we will update Vue 6"

Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that if I were you. ;)

And you know, Vue 7 xStream may very well be compatible with LW 9.5, but since they say it's soon to be released... who knows - will something in 9.5.1 break it? 9.6...?
Of course, the moment they're *cough cough* finished *cough cough* with Vue 7 xStream, they'll be working on Vue 8 xTra-Super-xStream, and updates for the plugins will be put way on the backburner, maybe something for some code monkey to play around with on a slow day at e-on and see if anything useful happens...

Myself, I don't use it, but they do where my wife works, and from what I've heard, unless you're from some big important major studio or a VERY persistent individual, you're likely to be SOL on any kind of satisfying tech support.
They didn't use to be that way. I started with Vue at version 2.1 way back in 2000 or 2001, and back in those days, particularly during the Vue d'Esprit 3.x run, you could have nearly instantaneous email dialogues all day with tech support, even emailing files back and forth. A few times they even sent me beta patches as they were working on them. One day the guy sent me a patch, I told him it didn't solve my problem, and he recoded a few things and sent me an update a few hours later. Now THAT was support!

Sadly, those days are gone forever. Too many customers, too many bugs and problems not enough techhies, I guess.

I can see their point though, and the guy's right - it IS a daunting task to keep up with all the software updates, but still, if you have a major release and it's billed to work with a major release of another app, such as Vue 6 xStream is *supposed* to work flawlessly with LW 9.0, and it doesn't - if ANYTHING at all is wrong, ESPECIALLY if it's something that kills your production, they NEED to be on it and fix it.
As it is, too many software companies look at a 30% disapproval rating and see a 70% APPROVAL rating and consider it a raging success. Especially if they can point at the latest Indiana Jones movie and say, "Look! Look what it can do!!!!" :thumbsdow

Like I said earlier - makes one appreciate NewTek even more. :thumbsup:

virtualcomposer
10-19-2008, 07:55 PM
I have a feeling that E-on is going to lose allot of money this time around. The tech support is a joke, they never fix any crash issue, they don't communicate and expect us to think that the next version is going to solve all the problems. Pure greed. I think the fact that Vue has been used on movies is getting to their head so they figure, hey, we're great, let's jack up the price since we're worth it. Nope, I'll stick with LW any day and if I have to make a landscape, I'll follow a tutorial or use Vue 5 Infinite. I understand a company needs to make money but don't jack the price up to a program that has more bugs in it then a rain forest cave. Gosh, Newtek is fixing every nick and cranny before they release the final version. There's something to be said about a company like that. Even if Maya or other apps came out with something LW didn't have, I would still stick with LW due to the outstanding service & attention to detail.

JamesCurtis
10-19-2008, 09:21 PM
Agreed!!!

calilifestyle
10-20-2008, 02:54 AM
Well all i can say is World builder.... if they plan to be a company that doesn't play nice, then they will end up like Worldbuilder. I recall a day when they had great piece of software. but again they forgot who was paying there bills. Oh well.

Oh i forgot if you own 3dcoat- he has a free version of tree builder. at one point he wants to get back to it.

starbase1
10-20-2008, 06:47 AM
I have to agree about the dumb profileration of names that don't mean anything... Loooking at the mess of upgrade options to the various Vue 6's from all the older and lesser versions shows dozens, and these will multiply up exponentially...

They also seem to me very unclear on what the actual different versions are for - contrast this with Adobe who seem to bme to do a very good job of splitting between professional and amatuer / elements versions, such that the elements versions are generally actively better for the amatuer.

So perhaps the should have, in descending order of price:

Vue "I'm Not Paying", for users who get their software provided by their employer. This has all options included, and an arbitrary 40% price increase on top. And a recurriing fee of 20% of the cost per anum, for access to a Mumbai call centre where someone will read the manual to you at $5 a minute.

Vue Everything, for advanced users who are not stupid enough to buy option one. Otherwise identical apart from fancy packaging on the other one.

Vue Basic. Remove the stuff that will thrash a system to death if used incorrectly, or require umpty three petabytes of ram, or produce renders with a run time longer than the lifetime of the Sun.

Vue Broken. Cut down demo type lite version, with everything that makes Vue worth using delivering a watermarked image. This version for giving away
on magazine covers, or for sale to students who can't read. This will also let the magazines print "as sold for $xx!" on the free CD.

Nick

virtualcomposer
10-20-2008, 09:05 AM
I have to agree about the dumb profileration of names that don't mean anything... Loooking at the mess of upgrade options to the various Vue 6's from all the older and lesser versions shows dozens, and these will multiply up exponentially...

They also seem to me very unclear on what the actual different versions are for - contrast this with Adobe who seem to bme to do a very good job of splitting between professional and amatuer / elements versions, such that the elements versions are generally actively better for the amatuer.

So perhaps the should have, in descending order of price:

Vue "I'm Not Paying", for users who get their software provided by their employer. This has all options included, and an arbitrary 40% price increase on top. And a recurriing fee of 20% of the cost per anum, for access to a Mumbai call centre where someone will read the manual to you at $5 a minute.

Vue Everything, for advanced users who are not stupid enough to buy option one. Otherwise identical apart from fancy packaging on the other one.

Vue Basic. Remove the stuff that will thrash a system to death if used incorrectly, or require umpty three petabytes of ram, or produce renders with a run time longer than the lifetime of the Sun.

Vue Broken. Cut down demo type lite version, with everything that makes Vue worth using delivering a watermarked image. This version for giving away
on magazine covers, or for sale to students who can't read. This will also let the magazines print "as sold for $xx!" on the free CD.

Nick

I agree. That's what they should call all of those versions. I just don't get them. They have the potential of being a very good company but my god, I have a Mac Pro machine with 4GB RAM at 2.66 proc speed and I can't even get one frame at Broadcast quality to render within 3 days. I understand the tweaking part but I also didn't pay $1000 to get poor quality pictures because I don't have a 25 computer render farm. It seems like, for the most part, that Vue is impractical and needs to find out from Newtek how to make a real render engine that works for people that don't have $100,000 to invest in a dedicated render farm for decent pictures. With LW, I can render a frame with photo-real MB, allot of antialiasing and other nice features with radiosity and a fairly complicated scene which usually takes less then 1-3 hours per frame and that's a pretty heavy load to with lots of integrate parts. With Vue, I could go visit my family in Kansas, come home, invent a new type of fuel that would help this country, and go grocery shopping, at ease, come home and it might be half way finished. LOL The upgrade isn't worth it to me and it sounds like no one is happy with it. I haven't heard one positive thing about Vue 6 never-the-less pay for an upgrade to seven without them even addressing any type of fixes. I don't think E-on will stay in business long if they continue to be greedy.

starbase1
10-20-2008, 09:28 AM
I agree. That's what they should call all of those versions. I just don't get them. They have the potential of being a very good company but my god, I have a Mac Pro machine with 4GB RAM at 2.66 proc speed and I can't even get one frame at Broadcast quality to render within 3 days. I understand the tweaking part but I also didn't pay $1000 to get poor quality pictures because I don't have a 25 computer render farm. It seems like, for the most part, that Vue is impractical and needs to find out from Newtek how to make a real render engine that works for people that don't have $100,000 to invest in a dedicated render farm for decent pictures. With LW, I can render a frame with photo-real MB, allot of antialiasing and other nice features with radiosity and a fairly complicated scene which usually takes less then 1-3 hours per frame and that's a pretty heavy load to with lots of integrate parts. With Vue, I could go visit my family in Kansas, come home, invent a new type of fuel that would help this country, and go grocery shopping, at ease, come home and it might be half way finished. LOL The upgrade isn't worth it to me and it sounds like no one is happy with it. I haven't heard one positive thing about Vue 6 never-the-less pay for an upgrade to seven without them even addressing any type of fixes. I don't think E-on will stay in business long if they continue to be greedy.

Have you seen the other threads with tips on faster flicker free rendering? A lot of it comes down to bad default options.

virtualcomposer
10-20-2008, 09:40 AM
no but I will check them out do some test.

pumeco
10-20-2008, 09:52 AM
It seems "Complete" is more... well, more complete than "Infinite". How's that again?...
It's otherwise known as marketing psychology. For starters it tells us they want the 'Complete' edition to be the biggest seller of the range, although with e-on's pricing I think they're starting to get a little 'up themselves' if you know what I mean.

I think they're getting Adobe, Autodesk or AliasWavefront syndrome as I like to call it. I was actually contemplating grabbing xStream, but the price of version 6 put an end to that; and now that I've seen the prices for version 7 ... well ... need I say more!

Their naming system is illogical but that's nothing compared to offering a 'Learning Edition' that doesn't even come with documentation!!!
It's true I tell ya :rolleyes:

virtualcomposer
10-20-2008, 10:34 AM
It reminds me of Starbuck. What is it...tall, ?, grande? In other words, small, medium, large? Why can't people just call things for what they are??? Maybe calling it a grande helps me to feel good when they charge me $2.50 for a coffee. Maybe that justifies high prices. This is why I make my own coffee at home. Average cost, 5 cents a cup. I can make it grande by adding water and putting it in the microwave for an extra 2 cents. That's what I love about LW. One version, lots of stuff, great price.

IMI
10-20-2008, 11:22 AM
I think they're getting Adobe, Autodesk or AliasWavefront syndrome as I like to call it. I was actually contemplating grabbing xStream, but the price of version 6 put an end to that; and now that I've seen the prices for version 7 ... well ... need I say more!



Forget about the prices. That alone is enough to deter alot of people, but the better reason is to listen to what people here in this thread alone have said about its quality, and e-on's tendency to release scene-killing, bug-infested software. It's not a new thing at all, and if you google it you can find *loads* of threads all over of people complaining about their buggy releases and seeming lack of concern. They release *alot* of patches for their products. Vue 4 alone had at least 22 service releases. The problem is, they reach a certain point and just say the hell with it, even if thousands of people still have the same problems.
And all they do is add features. Their render engine has been mediocre for years, yet still... new features...

Dirk
10-20-2008, 11:31 AM
I have to agree about the dumb profileration of names that don't mean anything... Loooking at the mess of upgrade options to the various Vue 6's from all the older and lesser versions shows dozens, and these will multiply up exponentially...

They also seem to me very unclear on what the actual different versions are for - contrast this with Adobe who seem to bme to do a very good job of splitting between professional and amatuer / elements versions, such that the elements versions are generally actively better for the amatuer.

So perhaps the should have, in descending order of price:

Vue "I'm Not Paying", for users who get their software provided by their employer. This has all options included, and an arbitrary 40% price increase on top. And a recurriing fee of 20% of the cost per anum, for access to a Mumbai call centre where someone will read the manual to you at $5 a minute.

Vue Everything, for advanced users who are not stupid enough to buy option one. Otherwise identical apart from fancy packaging on the other one.

Vue Basic. Remove the stuff that will thrash a system to death if used incorrectly, or require umpty three petabytes of ram, or produce renders with a run time longer than the lifetime of the Sun.

Vue Broken. Cut down demo type lite version, with everything that makes Vue worth using delivering a watermarked image. This version for giving away
on magazine covers, or for sale to students who can't read. This will also let the magazines print "as sold for $xx!" on the free CD.

Nick


ROFL :D:jester:

MachineClaw
10-20-2008, 01:14 PM
I got Vue 5 Infinate with my Lightwave 8.5/LIghtwave 9.x deal.

E-On won't let me upgrade it, said it was part of the lightwave deal and it's not upgradable ever, can get VueInf patches but not 6.

I had bought Vue 4, and standard 5. I can't pay to get an upgrade? company just lost a customer and money. I don't mean that to sound harsh it's just the reality, I'm certainly not going to buy a full seat of Vue 7 Infiniate - haven't considered upgrading from my Vue 5 Standard licence as the price is too much - especially with a Vue 5 Infiniate CD sitting on my desk.

BTW I bought a full seat of World Builder 3 - had no manual, CD installation was hosed and had to get filed sent via email to get it working and after 4 months they came out with 3.5 and wanted me to pay for the bug fixes. Then they abandoned WB 3/3.5 users and said WB 4 would solve all the problems. I threw the CD in the drawer and bought Vue.

Some people have great experiences and I have seen some amazing artwork come for a Vue artist - I have no clue how they do it cause none of my copies will produce anything like what I've seen - well almost, then it crashes and I give up.

If newtek puts instancing into Lightwave then we can have forests of trees and stuff, I'd love to see that happen as I'm tired of all these other companies.

starbase1
10-20-2008, 01:27 PM
I got Vue 5 Infinate with my Lightwave 8.5/LIghtwave 9.x deal.

E-On won't let me upgrade it, said it was part of the lightwave deal and it's not upgradable ever, can get VueInf patches but not 6.


That's just wrong - they let me upgrade V5i from Lightwave to V6i.

Nick

Lito
10-20-2008, 01:32 PM
Hmm that is surprising, I bought the upgrade from Vue 5 to Vue 6 with my LW included copy with no issues in 2006. I am surprised they didn't let you upgrade unless that is some new policy.

JBT27
10-20-2008, 01:45 PM
Sounds like the greed is getting deeply ingrained over at e-on.....they really ought to wake up and see what that's done to various institutions (and the rest of us) recently. I won't be spending any money with that company, not with these policies and prices in force. And anyway, like so many others here, I have rarely done anything useful with Vue - round of applause for the big studios, but then I don't count them in the regular course of the daily work the vast majority of the rest of us are engaged in.

And before anyone chips in and says it works fine if you work with it and tweak the settings.....fine.....agreed as a general principle, but seriously, what company in their right mind would use default settings that give crap results?

Julian.

Verlon
10-20-2008, 02:49 PM
That's just wrong - they let me upgrade V5i from Lightwave to V6i.

Nick

Also upgraded from Vue 5 Lightwave package to Vue 6. If you search their forums (and they go back far enough), this qiestion was asked and answered when V6 came out.

Heck, I think that was the POINT of giving us all V5

starbase1
10-20-2008, 02:56 PM
Heck, I think that was the POINT of giving us all V5

:agree::agree::agree:

virtualcomposer
10-20-2008, 04:04 PM
Maybe if nobody buys it, they'll keep lowering the price and next thing you know, you can get Vue 7 in a bargain bin near the $5 DVDs in the grocery store. LOL

MachineClaw
10-20-2008, 04:15 PM
Well I guess I'm the special one. I tried to buy and put in my Vue5i serial when asked and the E-On store rejected it. I called them on the phone and was told by a real live person I could not upgrade.

I agree it seemed like the whole point was to GET more users and get more money by having people upgrade. I tried emailing got no, not possible from two different people emailing me from e-on and a live person on phone. I thought that pretty much sucked *** and gave up after that.

Maybe I'll look into vue7i if it's possible - after at least a few patches have been released.

virtualcomposer
10-20-2008, 04:19 PM
Tech support should start getting better soon since they'll only have 10 people left to talk to. LOL

pumeco
10-21-2008, 04:10 AM
In all honesty I was surprised by Vue6, I got to like the PLE quite a lot (even without a bloody user guide). I've been thinking though, what it was about it that gives it that 'wow' factor. I came to the conclusion that it's the instancing technology that really 'makes' the program.

But now, we LightWaver's have got HD Instance, and from what I've heard it's pretty amazing - and the manual reads like it's a really well sorted plugin. So, why the hell would I pay all that money to e-on for instancing when our own plugin developers have taken the time and created a better solution especially for LightWave?

As a LightWave user my money is on HD Instance. Not only will it be waaaaaaaaay more affordable, but also the combination of LightWave with HD Instance would obviously knock the crap out of Vue. So yup, can't afford it just yet, but when I can, I'll be going the HD instance for LightWave route.

Bollocks to Vue :D

Andyjaggy
10-21-2008, 08:22 AM
Well it's not just instancing, it's the ease of which you can populate the instances, the way that it varies every single instance so no two trees are alike, the atmosphere and terrain generation, Being able to quickly and easily apply wind to all your vegetation, etc.....

As soon as HD instance lets you literally paint vegetation onto your objects and each tree is varied then it won't be the same. Still though, I am sure you can get similar results with HD instance, it just won't be as easy.

starbase1
10-21-2008, 09:05 AM
Well it's not just instancing, it's the ease of which you can populate the instances, the way that it varies every single instance so no two trees are alike, the atmosphere and terrain generation, Being able to quickly and easily apply wind to all your vegetation, etc.....

As soon as HD instance lets you literally paint vegetation onto your objects and each tree is varied then it won't be the same. Still though, I am sure you can get similar results with HD instance, it just won't be as easy.

I agree, the realistic controllable atmospheres, and the ecosystem generation are the crown jewels of the product, and there's a bit more to that than just replicating swarms of identical objects. The key you can use to control which vegetation apears at what mix of slope, altitide etc, will it tuck low plants under tall ones, mean that an ecopsystem material can be immensley powerful, and flexible, adapting automatically to the terrain you use it on.

virtualcomposer
10-21-2008, 09:08 AM
In all honesty I was surprised by Vue6, I got to like the PLE quite a lot (even without a bloody user guide). I've been thinking though, what it was about it that gives it that 'wow' factor. I came to the conclusion that it's the instancing technology that really 'makes' the program.

But now, we LightWaver's have got HD Instance, and from what I've heard it's pretty amazing - and the manual reads like it's a really well sorted plugin. So, why the hell would I pay all that money to e-on for instancing when our own plugin developers have taken the time and created a better solution especially for LightWave?

As a LightWave user my money is on HD Instance. Not only will it be waaaaaaaaay more affordable, but also the combination of LightWave with HD Instance would obviously knock the crap out of Vue. So yup, can't afford it just yet, but when I can, I'll be going the HD instance for LightWave route.

Bollocks to Vue :D

I totally agree. With LW's render speed, how can you go wrong? I also agree with someone else who said that a program like view should have default render settings that don't require 3 hours of tweaking. I agree. Look at LW's default settings. They are totally workable and quite a few times, I just leave things in default.

pumeco
10-21-2008, 09:12 AM
Well I'm really glad I mentioned this now 'cause you guys might have just saved me a wasted purchase.

I don't have HD Instance yet so I'm only going by what I'm getting from the downloadable manual. I'll have to do some carefull re-reading because I was under the impression you could paint instancing and you could even do it a layer at a time and merge various layers, etc. I think it was something to do with using weight maps to make it work or something - I'll have to read it again tonight just to check I'm not kidding myself.

Aaargh!!!

virtualcomposer
10-21-2008, 09:23 AM
Well I'm really glad I mentioned this now 'cause you guys might have just saved me a wasted purchase.

I don't have HD Instance yet so I'm only going by what I'm getting from the downloadable manual. I'll have to do some carefull re-reading because I was under the impression you could paint instancing and you could even do it a layer at a time and merge various layers, etc. I think it was something to do with using weight maps to make it work or something - I'll have to read it again tonight just to check I'm not kidding myself.

Aaargh!!!

If you are going to purchase Vue 7, just make sure you buy what you need and not all the extras that you'll never use. I still like Vue but the pricing and crashes and bad default settings take allot of the fun out of it. Buy what you need and you'll probably be a lot more content as to what you paid for.

pumeco
10-21-2008, 09:34 AM
Hell no - I'm not buying Vue - not at those prices!

Nah, I just meant I might make a mistake buying HD Instance if you can't just paint instances in the scene. As for Vue though, they can stick that where their super spectral sunrays (or whatever they call them) don't shine. I'm not one for astro' pricing policy I'm afraid.

virtualcomposer
10-21-2008, 09:52 AM
I'm telling you, greedy companies go out of business!

starbase1
10-21-2008, 09:53 AM
Hell no - I'm not buying Vue - not at those prices!

Nah, I just meant I might make a mistake buying HD Instance if you can't just paint instances in the scene. As for Vue though, they can stick that where their super spectral sunrays (or whatever they call them) don't shine. I'm not one for astro' pricing policy I'm afraid.

They call them, God Rays. Perhaps because you need to sell the treasures of the Vatican to 'rays' the cash for the software!
:devil:
:devil:
:devil:

virtualcomposer
10-21-2008, 09:59 AM
I'm hoping Vue will come back down to earth and realize the costumer comes first. When they do, they become loyal and cash won't be a problem.

calilifestyle
10-21-2008, 11:27 AM
Anyone know if Sumatra works with HD-I.

calilifestyle
10-21-2008, 11:33 AM
never mind my last post. It wouldn't matter if they work with each other. After viewing the videos i figured this out. sorry

pumeco
10-21-2008, 11:54 AM
They call them, God Rays. Perhaps because you need to sell the treasures of the Vatican to 'rays' the cash for the software!
:devil:
:devil:
:devil:
You're good, that's a good crack :thumbsup: :D

manholoz
10-21-2008, 01:26 PM
Seems I'll stick to my vue5 infinite while those upgrade prices are around. And in the middle of a financial crisis... I'ld rather eat than upgrade.

Sekhar
10-21-2008, 01:59 PM
People: we're talking about the software that made "Pirates of the Caribbean" and "Indiana Jones." $1,500 is a steal - you better take it and run before e-on changes its mind! :D

Heck, looking at e-on's marketing, may be there will be unsuspecting pocket-heavy studios that'll drool and shell out the dough. I mean, the age-old adage is "you get what you pay for," right? So xStream 7 must be great.

manholoz
10-22-2008, 08:21 AM
People: we're talking about the software that made "Pirates of the Caribbean" and "Indiana Jones." $1,500 is a steal - you better take it and run before e-on changes its mind! :D

Heck, looking at e-on's marketing, may be there will be unsuspecting pocket-heavy studios that'll drool and shell out the dough. I mean, the age-old adage is "you get what you pay for," right? So xStream 7 must be great.

You could say the same about Lightwave, and it costs just about half.

virtualcomposer
10-22-2008, 10:29 AM
LW has been used in many more movies then Vue and they aren't greedy and non-responsive like E-on.

prometheus
10-22-2008, 10:32 AM
They call them, God Rays.

Ogo taiki does them too..and the Lightwaves procedurals even has better density textures than vues awful function noises, Lighwave procedural textures such as dennis p weather plugin,gardner cloud, or most of the rest procedurals are way more adapted for clouds than vues function editor nosies.

Too bad thou that ogo was so slow and so hard to get good quality.

otherwise a wamp of ogo taiki would be nice and get it in to lightwave out of the box and throw in L-systems for trees and improve on viper or fprime to render Everything fog,volumetrics,radiosity..thats it.

Michael

Sekhar
10-22-2008, 10:49 AM
You could say the same about Lightwave, and it costs just about half.

Not really, because NT doesn't promote LW the way e-on is promoting Vue - that was my point. It's kind of like how a clueless self-promoting careerist can draw a bigger paycheck than a brilliant but modest self-deprecator.