PDA

View Full Version : Woes of the 3D World



Original1
08-04-2003, 12:33 PM
Those of you who use 3D studio max may like to take note of this


Attention all 3ds max users! Discreet has confirmed that installing the Windows 2000 Service Pack 4 causes .max files to become corrupted. All 3ds max files saved with Service Pack 4 installed will no longer load on Windows 2000 systems with SP2 or SP3 installed. Discreet relased the following statement to all 3ds max and VIZ registered users on July 15th:

We have identified and confirmed that installing the Windows 2000 Service Pack 4 causes the corruption of .max files. All 3ds max (.max) files saved with Windows 2000 SP4 installed will no longer load in 3ds max on systems with Windows 2000 SP2 or SP3 installed. Our Engineering Team has narrowed in on the problem and is working with Microsoft to resolve the situation. In the interim it is strongly advised that all 3ds max users do not install the Windows 2000 SP4. If Windows 2000 SP4 has already been installed it is suggested that customers revert back to SP2 to create usable .max file content. This affects all 3ds max files created in versions 3 through 5.1.

3ds max files created while Windows 2000 SP4 is installed can be retrieved through either of two workarounds:

Option 1
(Please be aware that some data will still be lost in this workaround.)
Revert Windows 2000 SP 4 Systems back to SP3 or earlier.
Use "File Merge" to retrieve data from corrupted .max files created under Windows 2000 SP4 and resave.
Note: If you have Render Effects or Atmospherics in your max file, use the Merge button in the respective dialogs.

Option 2
Open corrupted .max files created under Windows 2000 SP4 in Windows XP and resave.
Revert all systems back to Windows 2000 SP3 or previous.

Bear in mind that 3ds max 5.1 is officially supported for Windows 2000 SP2, so for optimum stability revert to this operating system platform to use 3ds max 5.

Thank you for patience and assistance in getting this problem resolved.


For those of you complaining about the Cost of LW 8.0

The cost for Maya Complete upgrade from 4.5 to 5.0 is $899
Maya Unlimited is $6999

Long Live Lightwave

bobakabob
08-04-2003, 04:07 PM
Yep, so much for the 'Maya is cheap' argument... Plus the upgrade is for the 'lite' version!

kevman3d
08-04-2003, 05:58 PM
However more bad news for all 3D artists using LightWave or Maya..

We're apparently not using the software of choice for 3D artists - Which was identified not through Market research, but from the pages of the EXPOSE' book! :D lol! Here's the quote at the end of the article which sums it all up...


"The results speak for themselves. 3D digital artists prefer 3ds max as the most productive and flexible 3D software to help them realize their creative vision, and create quality animations, visualizations and evocative works of art,” says Paul Lypaczewski, General Manager of Discreet and Executive Vice President of Autodesk, Inc. “We are absolutely thrilled that the 3D digital art industry continues to prove that 3ds max is the leading choice for 3D artists worldwide.”

The article is from here:
http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=1460

Narf! Narf! :)

Kuzey
08-04-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by kevman3d
Here's the quote at the end of the article which sums it all up...


It looks and sounds like a paid advertisement to me :p

Kuzey

cresshead
08-04-2003, 07:33 PM
discreet are definatley trying to place thier app toward the front of the que...they're also listed on hi end 3d website now..and coincidently have several adverts on the site...seems it pays to advertise...makes you jump up the league table...

there is quite a bit of max work in the ecpose book..and it's great work as well but i wouldn't use a sweeping statement to say that max is the leader for stunning artwork...i'd say it's the artists who push whatever 3d app they use.

steve g

policarpo
08-04-2003, 07:37 PM
hehehe...discreet are marketing wizards...that's for sure.

but honestly, they have a very good product line. i really enjoyed using 3dsmax when i did and still enjoy using it when i do.

:)

ToonShady
08-04-2003, 09:06 PM
Words about 3d that comes out of the mouth of those who don't do 3d day in and day out are all bull. I listened to a pitch from a Alias sales person here in the east coast. He totted how Maya is all that - it has 3 ways to model something (nurbs, polys, subds). In my mind, first, I would never use nurbs to do my modelling. Been through the pain, and never look back. And second, their poly/subd workflow is cumbersome as heck. Right out of the box, their poly tools sucks comparing to LW's. I can't find myself model anything with their product.

And as for Max. I would never go back to that thing for many reasons. This thread being one of them.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78960

Baloney Pony
08-04-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Original1
Those of you who use 3D studio max may like to take note of this



For those of you complaining about the Cost of LW 8.0

The cost for Maya Complete upgrade from 4.5 to 5.0 is $899
Maya Unlimited is $6999

Long Live Lightwave [/B]

I totally agree.

Long Live Lightwave. It is a spectacular tool that delivers a great product for a very resonable price!

ivanze
08-05-2003, 02:32 AM
That thread in CGtalk Max forum looks like other thread we have here in Newtek Lightwave Forum. :D

People complaining because max has incorporated plugins from others.

Matt
08-05-2003, 02:42 AM
I agree - long live LightWave - bringing high quality 3D tools to the masses!!

:)

Karmacop
08-05-2003, 03:29 AM
Ivanze, I think the difference is alot of the new features in Max 6 are bought from external companies. Compare that to Lightwave 8 where features are bought from external people and the programers now work at Newtek. ;)

ivanze
08-05-2003, 03:48 AM
You're right Karmacop, and that is very exciting to have those people working with Newtek now.

sailor
08-05-2003, 04:53 AM
Maya Complete has much more features than Lightwave itself so it is not "lite" it has less features than the Unlimited for sure"

saying that it is "incomplete" is forgetting that it has edges, hierrchical subdivisions, history and Nurbs all this in "incomplete" as you say...remiind you that for the moment a part a couple of plugs LW 7.5 MOdeler is LW 6 modeler....i wont pay for a 0 Modeler improvement....so even a 1 dollar upgrade will be too expensive for EXACTLY the same Modeler....

cresshead
08-05-2003, 06:05 AM
having looked at mayaple 4.5ple i can say that so far maya complete [which the ple version is really] is quite a handful to get your head around.i got the version that shipped with a 1 hour training dvd which helps quite abit bit i get "lost" in maya often with panels disapearing and all those icons are a pain when you start to learn a app [thay are good once you know what your looking for..i'm quite quick with max now for example]

to call maya complete a "lite" version is really missing the point
maya complete has some amazing tool like artizan, paint fx and pretty good poly tools now plus solid capable nurbs tools as well plus the dynamics is solid and predictable..with MR nowin maya 5 it's a great app which in my experience is only let down by how unfriendly it feels to be in the app compared to lightwave or 3ds max..that of course may not be so true if you only had experience with maya and not max and lw also...

the low price of maya is temping but the upgrade price means that after 3 upgrade you've paid for maya all over again!

i'll maybe get maya 6 instead of upgrading my max 4.2 up to max 6 seeing as max 6 features seem so poor in the current to be released max 6..but..i'll hold onto maya 6 for a while and not upgrade..

lightwave...you gota believe that i'm really excited about lightwave 8..the features seen so far [there will be more..] on the video streams last week make lightwave8 look amazing in comparison to max currently.

cheers

steve g

gjjackson
08-05-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by sailor
Maya Complete has much more features than Lightwave itself so it is not "lite" it has less features than the Unlimited for sure"

saying that it is "incomplete" is forgetting that it has edges, hierrchical subdivisions, history and Nurbs all this in "incomplete" as you say...remiind you that for the moment a part a couple of plugs LW 7.5 MOdeler is LW 6 modeler....i wont pay for a 0 Modeler improvement....so even a 1 dollar upgrade will be too expensive for EXACTLY the same Modeler....

If I remember correctly most enhancement are in Layout. Those who buy the 8 upgrade will be able to get the next revision with all the modeler enhancements at no cost. I'll probably get it even though most enhancements seem to be in CA and I use Motionbuilder for that. Since I had problems with 7.5b I haven't even tried any further updates until 8 comes out.
BTW I do like the new help file. I don't care for PDF's at all.

sailor
08-05-2003, 06:23 AM
"If I remember correctly most enhancement are in Layout. Those who buy the 8 upgrade will be able to get the next revision with all the modeler enhancements at no cost. I'll probably get it even though most enhancements seem to be in CA and I use Motionbuilder for that. Since I had problems with 7.5b I haven't even tried any further updates until 8 comes out.
BTW I do like the new help file. I don't care for PDF's at all."

Maybe we will have the enhancements in Modeler...or maybe not...all this is speculation....now what are we comparing here? the price of LW currently if you compare to Maya is "too high"....

i'm talking about the features here...because "friendly interface" is after all a personal choice...i've been using Maya for some months now and even if i recognize that i miss some cool stuff in LW i can't say either that Maya is inintuitive at all...

So some of you criticize Discreet or Alias price policy and expect from me to buy a software without even knowing the exact enhancements on it and "hoping" that they will put what i need in Modeler "next time" you know how many times it has been said "next time "by NT?

come on....a Maya upgrade is certainly expensive but at least you know whta is in...there...if you think it is wiser to make a "blind" investement i dont...

CB_3D
08-05-2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by sailor
...remiind you that for the moment a part a couple of plugs LW 7.5 MOdeler is LW 6 modeler....i wont pay for a 0 Modeler improvement....so even a 1 dollar upgrade will be too expensive for EXACTLY the same Modeler....

Incorrect.
Since 6 Modeler has had some hefty speed optimizations, which are most noticeable with something like "Select Connected" on a complex model.

CB_3D
08-05-2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by gjjackson
Since I had problems with 7.5b I haven't even tried any further updates until 8 comes out.


You should. 7.5c is quite stable.

Karmacop
08-05-2003, 08:08 AM
There will be modeler changes for 8. We'll get to see some examples in the next few weeks too from what I hear. They didn't say there'd be no enhancements until 8.5, they said that the 8 upgrade had more improvements to layout than modeler.

First off, look at the enhancments to layout. Great dynamics for just about everything. New IK. New bone tools. That is quite a hefty update. Modeler could get n-sided sub-d surfaces and edge tools and I for one would still say that layout certainly got more attention than modeler, but n-sided sub d and edge tools are what everyone wants (except for sailor who wants maya :p)

Secondly, Lee said if he compared Modo's toolset to Lightwave 8's modeler toolset he'd say Modo didn't have much extra either ...

dwburman
08-05-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by sailor

come on....a Maya upgrade is certainly expensive but at least you know whta is in...there...if you think it is wiser to make a "blind" investement i dont...

Well, There's no rule that we have to upgrade as soon as 8 comes out. We can wait until 8.5 and see if that has the features we want.

I decided to go for the DFX+ deal and have been having fun getting acquainted with that, but my specialty isn't modelling.

sailor
08-05-2003, 12:15 PM
"Incorrect.
Since 6 Modeler has had some hefty speed optimizations, which are most noticeable with something like "Select Connected" on a complex model."


ok ok now you are talking great enhancements....do you realize that pointing that kind of "improvements" only makes you enphasize even more my point? ....
I wonder how long you were looking for that one just to post something in here...so funny :p

i remind you that at work i've been workin with 7 and 7.5 it is only my personal copy of 6 that i havent upgrade...finally i was lucky enough to have a chance to have someone else (the studio i worked for) paying for what wasnt worth it....really...anyways talking Opengl speed Maya is far more efficient so now we can talk optimizations maybe? ...

"select connected" i can't belive you bring that as a "modelr feature" my god is gettin worse in here...can't wait to see what Modo has in his belly to get the F... out of here

:(

"Secondly, Lee said if he compared Modo's toolset to Lightwave 8's modeler toolset he'd say Modo didn't have much extra either ...
"

well if you consider construction history alone (wich modo seems to have by the screengrabs we have seen) this single feature is alone a great improvement ....(compared to oh my god a sel connected speed improvement)...and also give a very good perspective for future upgrades...

Remember as well that Lee said that he couldnt see so much room for improvement in Modeler (well he must be blind then )
i can again give some idea by just launching other programs and see what could be improved....

History
Hierarchical subdivs
UV smoothing
Nurbs

and lot more ...all of this exist for some years now...i can't believe he is saying there is not much to improve...this statement makes me really have doubts about LW developpement even more than before...
It is impossible not to know that this adavanced modeling paradigms exists in different flavor in different softs (including some cheap soft)...

for some feature requests i will seriously start thinking of a site taking a record of what have been asked for YEARS and that just pop ups everyday in the feature requests...all this request are not some kind of "experimental" stuff but STANDARDS in the industry....again not necessarily expensive soft has this....

have a look at the feature request and look at another edges request...since i can remember this has been asked at least 4 years ago
Newtek is listening.....


and btw i dont want Maya a want the intuitivity of LW with some extra control that Maya gives...not that difficult btw some enhancements are not "Maya centric" like history...this is something you find in XSI or Max as well :)

cresshead
08-05-2003, 01:47 PM
maya's open gl speed can be put fairly and squarely down to the FACT that SGI [silicon graphics] invented open gl in the first place
and remember that alias wavefront [now alias] is owned by sgi..little wonder that their 3d app is running faster then in viewports...eh?

steve g

sailor
08-05-2003, 02:39 PM
Cresshead :)

yeah that could be true i never thought about that actually...

well that is life :D

Karmacop
08-05-2003, 07:09 PM
Man I'm getting sick of this sailor, just forget about lightwave and use maya all the time already. Why don't you tell us why you're sticking with lightwave? :p

Anyway, here's my list of improvements in modeler since 5.6 ...

Skelegons
skelegon tools
everythingelse-gons
interactive tools
uv maps
endomorphs
weight maps
colour maps
uv tools
map tools
huge speed ups
symmetry tool
action centers
more layers
more options for layers
spline guide
surface editor
image editor
presets shelf
meta balls
meta edges
mets polygons
spray points
airbrush
editable interface
colour wireframes
new window options
independent window options
colour backgrounds
a more integrated Lscript

That is just between 5.6 - 7.5 ... I'm not sure what was added in each release but I remember modeler being much better in 7 even though alot of the core changes are from 6. I've probably missed things and lumped things together but that's abuot all I can think of.

Original1
08-06-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by sailor


"select connected" i can't belive you bring that as a "modelr feature" my god is gettin worse in here...can't wait to see what Modo has in his belly to get the F... out of here

:(



Dear Sailor,

There are those who would say that the sooner that happens the better, but lets take another tack...

What improvements would you like see in the next version of Modeller?

What does your superior intellect and gigantic ego think would really improve workflow?

Come on I would really like to know HOW you would improve it for the benefit of the whole community.

By the way, you are not forced to upgrade keep your money.

For me the cost of the upgrgade is small change, and the addition of DFX+ to my toolset is worth the money alone.

I am going to shut up following The advice of Thumpers mother.

"if you cant say something nice about someone you shouldnt say anything at all"

sailor
08-06-2003, 02:50 AM
Original1 :)

i have said many times what i would like to see in Modeler for "the next upgrade"....i wont ask again i'm tired of that...if you want you can go to the feature request forum and i bet that there is an "edge in modler" request right now...

i was just making the point that if you come with stuff like that as a "new feature" for LW modeler then certainly Modeler developpment is only on the hands of 3rd party developers...well actually i dont even know why i'm discussing this here because Modo is certainly a clear answer to the hardcore LW fans that until today still finds LW modeler is perfect and that there is "so little room for improvement".

anyways this was my last post here don't worry...for me then the only think you came to me with as developement between 6 and 7.5 is "sel connected speed"....yes you have also the "banglue" (aka as PBO since 6 and for free on Flay) and maybe Bandsaw pro....

Karmacop read clearly my posts please i was talking about MODELER improvements since LW 6....

now you can crop your list....

ow i just went to the feature request forum and look what i found

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8959

well that one you can go any day since version 6 and find it here...and it wasn't me huh? but maybe we are just 2 guys in the entire community asking for this...

cresshead
08-06-2003, 03:11 AM
sailor, i think some people are getting a bit terse with you because all your posts [if i'm right..not read all of them!] seem to be putting lightwave in such a negative light constantly...i'm sure you have done great work with lightwave and maya and overall you've benefitied from lightwave over the years..i think your quite eager for lightwave to move on to the next level and evolve into a new super 3d app..which is where you've placed modo.

my main concern for modo and luxology is their "lack" of information on their products other than4 screenshots which maybe just photoshop mockups for all we know at this stage..many people have seen modo and lux as the holy grail of 3d modelling for the future yet there's about 4 pics and 1000 words total in reality so far..i'm sure with time there will be real information on lux etc but currently it's vapourware.

i'm not saying that modo may turn out to be ace..if it does i'll look into it for sure but currently there's no app to try or review there of.

weird that if a company gives people information by the bucket load.. a negative response seem to be the order of the day and if they only dangle a tiny carrot the general public think it must be the most fantastic thing since sliced bread....

says alot about people's imagination huh?

steve g

sailor
08-06-2003, 03:29 AM
Cresshead :D

well i have personally bein saying exactly the same thing for a longtime now...the only reason you seem to see me here more often is because actually i have more time free...in a couple of days i will be busy as hell again and you will read my post less often (juts be patient guys :p)

Honestly my request have nothing to do with Modo or not modo LW 8 or not LW8...while this could be true for some it isn't my case nor the case of other users...i'v' been asking for Nurbs (wich aren't actually a Modo feature or not AFAIK) for a long time for example

in fact i'm not putting to much emotion in who is working at NT or not...i dont knwo them and for me it is just a company nothing more...who owns it or not i dont care...

in the other hand:

i have no idea of the quality of Modo but the only thing i can judge is that at least they are making a try and listen for what have been requested for a long time (edges for instance) this attitude alone makes me feel a certain nice mood about it...in the other hand Lee pointing that there is not so much room for Modeler improvement makes me the opposite effect....(all this is pretty easy to understand i guess)


So i'm just here sharing that feeling....if you (in general) don't like POV that are not the same as yours the only thing i'm asking is to elaborate clear arguments....i understand your POV and think that you could be right in a certain way but your post is talking more about personal feelings and emotions what after all is not the main purpose of this debates...but i agree that you are certainly right...

Karmacop is certainly a nice guy but to a from 6 to 7.5 Modeler list of what was improved he answers with a 5.6 to 7.5 list...eerybody knows that 90 percent of that improvements were maid between 5.6 and 6...considering that i didnt worked with LW 5.6 you understand my "upgrade" point...i take the time to read the posts and sometimes even take the time to make screengrabs to emphasize my POV...i expect at least some kind of "fair play" no? ;)


peace

cresshead
08-06-2003, 04:13 AM
okay here's my take...

i had inspire 3d back in 1998...looked hard at buying lightwave 5.6...then looked at maya 1.0, softimage and max2.5 in 1999

i bought max 2.5 and character studio...then got a bunch of plugins..upped' to max 3.1 then max 4.2 plus added final render...

last year i was debating what to get next...viz4 plus lightscape or lightwave 7.0 a an addition 3d app....

literally with a spin of a coin [i hate to decide!] i ordered lightwave..

now then max 4 [and max 5] has edges, an editmesh and a editablepoly method of modelling plus spline patching and other methods too...

my time in max for organic modelling was/is alsways slow and painful....then i started to use lightwave..it was a struggle at first because of it's quirky ways of working but slowly i began to really feel at home with it, and after learning the userdelta spinshift way of modelling a head..well...lightwave is very cool.

even wihout edges lightwave is a far better modeller in MY opinion that max for the stuff i'm trying to build..sure it has it's faults like any 3d app has but overall i have a great deal of fun in lightwave...i'd like to see edges and ngon subpatches but if they don't turn up i'm sure not going to dump lightwave and jump back to 3dsmax for example...i want to have some spare time to watch to t.v!

there are some tools and way of working that i'd like to see in lw8..a history would be nice, a smooth scale that is interactive rather than a type in field..well there's a few i could list but that's not my point...

i'd reckon the any app has it's good n bad points..for me 3dsmax is a great alrounder app with the addition of character studio it really shines for speed..and it's quite logical in it's workflow too..but i wouldn't be without my copy of lightwave...!

the only time i'm in 3dsmax nowdays is when i teach it at college and for a few things with character studio...

take a look at the new stuff for 3dsmax 6..other than mental ray and reactor 2 there's not much to shout about...

compare that to what we've seen so far [ti's not finished yet] with lightwave and well lightwave8 looks like a exciting release.

steve g

Original1
08-06-2003, 06:52 AM
My exprience is very simular to cresshead, and at the end of the day, its down to your own workflow, there are pipelines for which max is quicker, esp. Shockwave modeling if I want to use havok in my 3D sprite.

But theres not much else, and my exprience with Max has been less than perfect in a number of places I have worked.

Theres plenty I would like to see in Lightwave, improved Shockwave Export, SWF export built in? better import for CAD and architectural formats, along with tools to simplify the model.

Karmacop
08-06-2003, 07:52 AM
Sailor, I'm not sure what I'd need to cull from my list .. I looked in modeler for all those items :confused:

Anyway, i understand what you mean. I think Lightwave 7 was rushed and it wasn't a huge upgrade. I'm not sure why. Modeler improvements for 7 seemed to mostly be for uvmaps etc (I tihnk that's when they added discontinuous uv maps?) and workflow improvements. Other than that not much changed. Layout didn't improve much either I feel .. all I can think of really is hypervoxels, digital confusion and particles (minor upgrade). I know there's more than that but nothing really important.

I think Lightwave 8 will be well worth the money. I'm going to say the lightwave 8 upgrades (8 and the point releases) will be the most value packed upgrade for awhile. I can't wait till they announce the new modeler stuff in a week or two ..

lone
08-09-2003, 11:22 AM
to get back to the original subject of the post (upgrades hosing your files), that is why i never patch my OS, or update drivers (other than DIRECTX), unless it is absolutely necessary. it seems that the potential for damage to the system almost always outweighs any benefits.

faulknermano
08-09-2003, 08:55 PM
the original point of this thread bugs me. it doesnt feel right snickering over 3dsmax troubles and putting lw on top as a result of that. i feel sorry for 3dsmax user REALLY because i would going through hell if what happened to them happened to me.



come on....a Maya upgrade is certainly expensive but at least you know whta is in...there...

you never know what's REALLY in there until you get it. feature lists are lists but you cant access its stability or usefulness until you try it yourself in your projects. that applies to every app. thankfully, maya's pretty stable all around. but so is lightwave.. sooo.....

:D

Original1
08-10-2003, 01:48 PM
The original point of this thread was that I was fed up of the amount of bitching that was going on in the forums.

It does not matter which 3D Application you use there are issues with them.

Lightwave represents good value for money, for some of the TV stuff I do Lightwave is my choice For other jobs I have to use Max in a production enviroment, for some of the shockwave stuff I do I have no other choice.

So issues with MAX is not malicious glee, it is a PAIN in THE *** for me as a MAX user, Is Lightwave perfect? far from it, I would like to see better shockwave export, for one

MasterTux
08-10-2003, 08:13 PM
3dsmax has issues, so does maya and every other app for that matter, but lightwave seems to have the least amount of problems and for the money, is worth its weight in gold. Lightwave is always my choice cause i can afford it, and it is the easiest app to learn, u know what to do without training almost, thats why lightwave is the best :D