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moc
09-01-2008, 09:17 AM
Do anyone tried the new FiberFX tools?
1.I want to know is this tools' development finished or not?
How do you think if it Compared with other hair stlyer.sorry,I think it's not enough to be a up standard tools.

2.when I change the fiber oibject 's sub-D order at layout.always crash.

3.the fiberfilter tools always set fiber to all surface set from begining.Although set to effect just *one* surface.the viewport preview can't automatic update.I must press a render processing then it finally preview right .

4.Can we set the guide's "editing" cluster?It is so hard to push a default two point guide to a curature shape.

5.I got many *red dots* at the final render.see the following pic.
Am I missed somthing?

6.I think the guide and the volumetric hair make a big different.

7.I must say Fiber rendering so slow.

SplineGod
09-01-2008, 10:43 AM
These are all known issues. I guess the important thing is they got it out in time for siggraph right....? :)

jasonwestmas
09-01-2008, 10:53 AM
It is strange how the fiber rendering was fast in previous builds and then slowed down big time in the final release of 9.5.0. The editing tools are indeed disappointing. From my experience so far though the quality is starting to look good in most of my renders. It will be a nice addition once it works properly.

SplineGod
09-01-2008, 11:00 AM
I start to get some decent looking results in between crashes. It would have been nice to have it actually working before being sold for public consumption...

jasonwestmas
09-01-2008, 06:48 PM
public consumption, hehe, yeah that's for certain.

Skonk
09-02-2008, 12:59 PM
The first time I tried it in the release version, all I did was create a ball, name it, save it, load into layout, add fiberfx and hit f9 and it crashed. Turns out it was because I had viper open.

After that I just lost interest in it.

Jim M
09-03-2008, 03:56 AM
Lets face it, we still have Sasquatch...

zapper1998
09-03-2008, 05:04 AM
Lets face it, we still have Sasquatch...



No, we still have Saslite

Jim M
09-03-2008, 05:05 AM
unlucky....

jasonwestmas
09-03-2008, 08:54 AM
Sas and Sas lite with a lot of LW incompatabilities. When the FFX crashes get fixed, as far as I'm concerned Sas and FFX are equals, it just depends on what you want to do or what your needs are.

Rendering speed of Sasquatch is really nice, I would gladly take a free Sasquatch 2.

Jim M
09-03-2008, 11:08 AM
I think FFX will be more useful in the long run...

peterpaw
09-03-2008, 12:34 PM
I think that the main target for FFX, and not only, is the Lightwave 10.
But then, how to fill a time hole... ;)
WIP and testing of a new toy(s) is also important.
Anyway, die the 1-9x architecture... I hope.

jasonwestmas
09-03-2008, 12:57 PM
Agreed,

FFX has a good platform going for it. It'll be ready one of these days. I'm glad NT chose quality of the render over rendering speed. NT is working on the backface-culling of the fibers right now so that'll be a good help in getting those times down.

adamredwoods
09-09-2008, 01:31 AM
After replaying around with FFX again, I'm coming to the same conclusion as everyone else.

It's really only powerful when you do short hair, fur, or grass. When attempting to style longer hair, or control it with dynamics, serious problems arise.

One of my initial gripes is that the Strand Modeler UI is very weak. The 3D rotation is frustrating when trying to rotate around the model. The guides are difficult to control accurately. The guides don't load/save. The whole process is trial and error, and requires many steps, repeating *back* to an empty head, if the stands don't look right.

I guess there is a comb plugin in Layout, but I kept getting errors when I tried to activate it. Not sure why's it's in the manual if it is unaccessable. And why isn't there a comb tool in Modeler?

... typical Lightwave: powerful backend, but such a weak/unfinished UI that it hampers the process.

adamredwoods
09-09-2008, 02:28 AM
Modeler's StrandTool does little as well. It doesn't move strand bases, while constrained to their base mesh. It doesn't shorten strands either.

One method I found more accurate is to create or draw curves in Modeler. Then select the curves and convert with the StrandMaker tool. UNFORTUNATELY-- one cannot control the amount of "divisions" in the new strands, so when rendering with Volumetrics, results are square hair (see attached image). Very poor control.

When using non-volumetric hair, I get very poor results, with the red dots as other users are getting (see attachment).

...Disappointing...

jasonwestmas
09-09-2008, 07:56 AM
Here's a plugin that subdivides splines for you and converts them to poly chains. It's kind of a bummer that we have to still rely on simple plugins for a brand new LW pixel filter.

http://flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1514

adamredwoods
09-09-2008, 11:32 AM
Thanks, but now will that work? I thought I still had to "convert" poly chains to fibers.
I will try it when I get a chance.

Titus
09-09-2008, 11:45 AM
A little bit tired of fighting with FFX we tried Blender, and one animator came with this image within a few hours after trying the program for the first time.

Modeling strands is amazing, they have collision so the strands don't get inside the object. I think NT may try it to get some ideas for improvement in the future.

adamredwoods
09-09-2008, 12:43 PM
I find short fur to be OK with FFX. It's very controllable with weight maps for length and density and clumping.

What specific problems did you have with the fur?

Intuition
09-09-2008, 12:44 PM
Fiber FX looks like it can do alot of neat stuff if you dive in a learn how it works. I think we will see some realy neat stuff when users get familiar with it.

That being said I like how XSI appraoches fur/hair and it makes it a non-issue. Even with little experience you can get a nice look quickly.

Also noted how Cinema 4d now has similar features to XSI in regards to hair and fur.

See here.

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/modules/hair/mov_hair_2.html

jasonwestmas
09-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Thanks, but now will that work? I thought I still had to "convert" poly chains to fibers.
I will try it when I get a chance.

Yes, just subdivide the curves with the plugin using Curve2Curve fuction. Then convert the curves to polys chains using the FFX Convert tool.

adamredwoods
09-09-2008, 12:59 PM
Also noted how Cinema 4d now has similar features to XSI in regards to hair and fur.

See here.

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/modules/hair/mov_hair_2.html

*weeps for LW*

But seriously, you can clip hair using another object in FFX as well. But I've never gotten the comb feature to work. FFX has potential, the UI is crap though.

Intuition
09-09-2008, 01:19 PM
Yeah I don't mean to play down FFX's potential. I bet it will evolve as it is used more.

I have seen some neat stuff with it and haven't really had a chance to push it through its paces yet. Though when I fired it up a few times it felt cumbersome but I saw what Matt was making for the guide and saw potential for sure.

Titus
09-09-2008, 02:56 PM
I find short fur to be OK with FFX. It's very controllable with weight maps for length and density and clumping.

What specific problems did you have with the fur?

Well, I don't find fun using it.

novawave
09-09-2008, 04:17 PM
After replaying around with FFX again, I'm coming to the same conclusion as everyone else.

It's really only powerful when you do short hair, fur, or grass. When attempting to style longer hair, or control it with dynamics, serious problems arise.


well,..as it for longer stylized hair...i think its powerfull and easy enough,. i just using a simpliest way to modelling the hair, no guide, no spline , only copying the mesh area where i want to be hairy to other layer, and make the shape to the hair style that i want and make it low poly(yes low poly).. and give some weight, i could control the mesh part by Weight map whether i want it to be long area or short area ....
here's some example,..so basically for me, FFX basic feature slider like bump or gravity are powerfull enough to control the hair shape, and dont forget those envelopes button where we could influence the shape by Weight or even by incidence angles.

as in my case, since i just too lazy to making a guide or spline or what ever lol i found FFX are very easy to use, as you only need to tweak where the hair to fall lol, and ussually i only control the gravity and hair size, and since this is a low poly guide , i guess its allright to play with the dynamics on it (haven't try yet) and ..

well for the most part of modelling till rendering on my PC it's stable lol(off course..even the buggiest plugin in the world will stable if it only dealing with 300 polys mesh:D)

great example about simple ffx setup that rocks, are Mr Turri's "young hero" model, check http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88583

adamredwoods
09-09-2008, 05:06 PM
novawave,

Thanks! Your method looks interesting. I will try it when I get a chance.
So, basically you're using a poly plane to control where the hair falls? Is this your polys to grow from, or is this a guide?

I understand using weight maps to control length. But it's the styling I'm struggling with.

Mr. Turri's model is great, but it's using short hair, which I don't have a problem with. Short hair is usually easiest. In the movie Final Fantasy: Spirits within, only one person had long hair because it was so difficult to do.

novawave
09-09-2008, 05:33 PM
novawave,

Thanks! Your method looks interesting. I will try it when I get a chance.
So, basically you're using a poly plane to control where the hair falls? Is this your polys to grow from, or is this a guide?

I understand using weight maps to control length. But it's the styling I'm struggling with.

Mr. Turri's model is great, but it's using short hair, which I don't have a problem with. Short hair is usually easiest. In the movie Final Fantasy: Spirits within, only one person had long hair because it was so difficult to do.

it's straight from my polys( great isn it:D)so the only thing i need to do are shape the hair (low poly mesh) layer to the hairstyle shape i want, and then tweak the ffx setup so those growing hair does not looks like an electrocution victim lol.. btw dont forget to kill any 2 point polys if you using this technique, dunno why, but if it was there the FFX wont render..

..here check this scene example,. the setup are easy, i only change the size, gravity and kink(you dont want your hair to be a rug...dont you lol)..
and make the size slider influenced by Weight map so we could control hair size..btw there's a tuft and stray slider if you wanna make some bob marley stuff lol..

have fun..

adamredwoods
09-10-2008, 01:18 AM
Well, I looked at your scene and it is a nice effect, but has limitations.
Basically you are using a high gravity to get your hair to curl down. This is not the solution I'm looking for as it still doesn't offer enough control.

But I want the hair to be controlled by myself. What if I want to part the hair to the side? what if I want two curls, one in, one out? What if I want one lock of hair to point forwards, and one back?

I wish I could use curves that I made in modeler as guides in layout, with non-volume hair. That would make everything easier.

novawave
09-10-2008, 02:04 AM
Well, I looked at your scene and it is a nice effect, but has limitations.
Basically you are using a high gravity to get your hair to curl down. This is not the solution I'm looking for as it still doesn't offer enough control.

But I want the hair to be controlled by myself. What if I want to part the hair to the side? what if I want two curls, one in, one out? What if I want one lock of hair to point forwards, and one back?

I wish I could use curves that I made in modeler as guides in layout, with non-volume hair. That would make everything easier.

yep Mr. Adam, you're right, this method have limitation on controling the hair since it was rely totally on Gravity effects,..but probably if you want to get a different curl or different stray, probably we could use some multiple weightmap gradient to control the shape,..but i havent try it yet..i guess i''ll try it this week,..

hope on the next update(9.5.1 probably) we got a better UI and non volume based hair, since on this release, as other allready said, it kind of premature to release and a lot of things not going as expected,..

\oh btw, since this method are lazy, dirty and fast one, yet has so many limitation , never use it until your boss saying you only have ten minutes for hair modelling :Dlol

cheers

SplineGod
09-10-2008, 02:06 AM
Bottom line...I wish Newtek would have given the plugin a REAL good look before deciding to aquire it. They should have also made sure it was further along then it is before releasing it for public consumption.
This seems to be a chronic problem with LW releases...theyre either very buggy, very late or both.

Jim M
09-10-2008, 02:45 AM
Well the way I see it, is the hair styling tools are ok, but you have native modeler tools to refine anything and thats always been fine for Sas. When they get better that will be nice, but doesn't really make a massive difference to me... The Strand tool could be modified to include a falloff effect so it effects mor than one end node etc... it will get better but it seems adequate, I mean what did you use before? :)

FFX Pixel Filter... well thats just buggy as hell aint it... what were they thinking? If it doesn't taste right, don't put it on the plate....

mav3rick
09-10-2008, 02:57 AM
well at the end we are still going back to good old sasq....... i just hope new one is in the works

moc
09-10-2008, 03:21 AM
I don't mind what the FFX filter in layout perform buggy or not temperily.Because it showed NT tried hard to find another playing method.

If that tools still under developing.I suggest NT take a look at what others(XSI,C4d,max,maya,blender) play with their fur/hair tools nowaday.Or just wasted a little time to see the [shave & haircut] stylist at 6 years ago.How does it styling long hair.



How can you styling hair node by node to style compicated hair like the following(I beg don't say about the older sasquatch guide making,LW need update improvement ):
http://aycu19.webshots.com/image/48258/2000402763974823078_fs.jpg
http://www.cyfw.com/f/h/UploadFiles_h/200606/2006619193632395.jpg
http://ent.tom.com/img/assets/200610/010_1160620571.jpg
http://hk.media1.88db.com/db88uploadfiles/2006/04/20/BAE9B454-C31D-4E35-9652-BDEF75314211.jpg

jasonwestmas
09-10-2008, 04:26 AM
well the only way to get the hair locks to do what you see above is with the use of long hair guides and lot's of them. If the strand modeler that NT provides can do what you are describing it's not really known to too many people. As far as I know the LW strand modeler only does more simple designs. For the above would have to either model curves by hand using rail cloning and the other traditional modeling tools. OR get an actual strand modeler plugin like meshpaint or perhaps hairspray, which aren't free.

Jim M
09-10-2008, 05:20 AM
Yep its not perfect, but I think people are missing a trick here.

Add guides,
Save guides
Edit guides in modeler using IK(or not) Strand tool... + Drag or whatever etc
Reload guides back in .. if you want to make some hair to do something apart from use the image filter plugin...
Long guides short guides... they are all there... just make em... whats up... its pretty easy...

moc
09-10-2008, 05:27 AM
hey,Acturally I know how to ideal those complicate hair style at other software package.

I 've used Shave&haircut stylist tools at 2001,it's the orginal concept of all hair style tools we see now.It's amazing useful !
I don't means LW should combinate S&H,but
I think the S&H like comb(push?) and relax(straighten?) tools a must have.And need to perform like what S&H can do.

We need to comb and brush hair naturally and no need to "learn" how to comb(Did someone teach your how to comb your hair?)FFX modeler processing still done works indirectly.(styling at layout was a right way!!)
Pls don't turn into the strand rail cloning way,It's 2008 no more guide cloning need at modeler!

Those who like older rail clone guide at modeler.(sorry,bros...)
Pls take a look at the free blender can do.
http://download.blender.org/demo/movies/HairTutorial.avi
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-240/new-particle-options-and-guides/

jasonwestmas
09-10-2008, 08:39 AM
hey,Acturally I know how to ideal those complicate hair style at other software package.

I 've used Shave&haircut stylist tools at 2001,it's the orginal concept of all hair style tools we see now.It's amazing useful !
I don't means LW should combinate S&H,but
I think the S&H like comb(push?) and relax(straighten?) tools a must have.And need to perform like what S&H can do.

We need to comb and brush hair naturally and no need to "learn" how to comb(Did someone teach your how to comb your hair?)FFX modeler processing still done works indirectly.(styling at layout was a right way!!)
Pls don't turn into the strand rail cloning way,It's 2008 no more guide cloning need at modeler!

Those who like older rail clone guide at modeler.(sorry,bros...)
Pls take a look at the free blender can do.
http://download.blender.org/demo/movies/HairTutorial.avi
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-240/new-particle-options-and-guides/


Yeah, I know what you are saying but the fact remains that we don't have tools like S&H in modeler. There are styling tools in layout but you may have to practice using that, it's not the most intuitive thing in the world when using longer strands of hair. As far as guide cloning. . .that's not meant to be a solution in itself you understand, there are many other things that are possible using older techniques. I suggest making a feature request. It seems you are talking to Newtek.

adamredwoods
09-10-2008, 10:56 AM
All good points.

My viewpoint is that the Fiber Modeler should be dumped and native tools be brought into Modeler itself. Brush tools, fiber push/pull, etc.

I've tried guides, and I find them useless. Still no control, too much trial and error. ANd worse of all, if you don't like the results, the save/load is buggy at best, and you generally have to start over from step 1.

FFX could be powerful, but seems the current state is a little premature. Unfortunately, with Lightwave, I see most tools being developed, then dropped for something newer. I'm afraid it will happen with FiberFX as well.

adamredwoods
09-10-2008, 11:02 AM
Oh, and I'm just specifically commenting about long hair control.

FFX for fur, short hair, and grass I think it's good enough for that.

Jim M
09-10-2008, 11:57 AM
Did someone teach your how to comb your hair?

No, I learned by watching other people, and taught myself. It was tricky at first because I wasn't used to it, but I got the hang of it...

sadkkf
09-10-2008, 02:42 PM
So am I understanding this correctly? The beta code performed better than the released code for FFX?

jasonwestmas
09-10-2008, 02:47 PM
Sorry I was going to say something about that but this isn't the beta forums.

jasonwestmas
09-10-2008, 02:53 PM
All good points.

My viewpoint is that the Fiber Modeler should be dumped and native tools be brought into Modeler itself. Brush tools, fiber push/pull, etc.

I've tried guides, and I find them useless. Still no control, too much trial and error. ANd worse of all, if you don't like the results, the save/load is buggy at best, and you generally have to start over from step 1.

FFX could be powerful, but seems the current state is a little premature. Unfortunately, with Lightwave, I see most tools being developed, then dropped for something newer. I'm afraid it will happen with FiberFX as well.

Well the problem is that there is too much control with hair guides, only it's kind of like making an oil painting with a tiny detail brush. There has to be broader tools that get things going in a good direction and then allow you to add details when you need it. (Kind of like Box Modeling or painting in general) In lightwave, making hair is just the opposite there are no tools that will give you the general shape QUICKLY that you are after with longer hair.

adamredwoods
09-11-2008, 12:34 AM
Ok. A bit more control.

in the posted wireframe, I created about 300 hairs in a selected area that just stuck out straight. No guides. No shaping. I then created a weight map of 100% on all except the base (0%) to pin the base hairs to the scalp.

Then I created 4 skelegon chains of 4 bones each. No joints, because joints can't use weight maps.

Created the bones in layout, set them to the hair, and activated the weight map for each one.

Then I did some IK for the four chains. I used this to shape the hair.
It's below-average work, but I am testing mostly for control rather than beauty right now.

adamredwoods
09-11-2008, 12:40 AM
Edit: Weird, it wouldnt let me do weight maps on joints, but now I can again. So you could use joints as well on this.

jasonwestmas
09-11-2008, 11:51 AM
That really is a nifty idea Adam. I was shocked when you said you coudn't use Weighting on joints. Glad to hear it does work with joints.

adamredwoods
09-11-2008, 12:28 PM
After playing with it, Joints are better control, actually. No need for IK either if one is just posing the hair for a still render.

Samus
09-12-2008, 03:24 AM
Hi Guys!!

Been Rolling my stone on this FFX. Still have Problems but the more i test it
the more attractive it looks. Despite some drawback that i have to work arround concerning dynamic hair and also deleting hair.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=749209#post749209

63190

63191

Samus
09-12-2008, 04:02 AM
Hi all!!

I've manage to Save a "edited guide" in layout by MD scanning the hair on 0 to 1 frame.

You can also save your presets by double clicking in your viper window.
but i dunno why when i reload it's looking for a Nodehandler????

Sam

jaxtone
09-16-2008, 11:56 AM
I got Sasquatch 2 but experience it as very complicated with an extremely slow render engine, but FFX shocked me by having and even slower render engine. My interest for FFX almost died at once when I experienced how slow it really was. NT, Please dope it with some speed or rewrite the script.

Now when I´ve read the earlier posts in this thread I agree on that FFX is kind of buggy, complicated and out of date. In 2008 and you could expect much more automatic interaction of a hair plugin. As told earlier in here FFXin is far behind other 3D softwares with more user friendly interfaces where you directly sees what impact different attractions have on the scalp or feather you create. So my advice to NT is to watch and learn how the others have done. We LW users would praise you for that.

I salute you guys who work hard to find smart ways to use FFX and I hope you find a satisfaction in doing it. And we are sure a lot of users that love you for doing it... but honestly you´re doing the job that would already been done before the software was released.

Shuggs
09-19-2008, 12:01 AM
I have loaded and reloaded my scene more than 10 times now. As soon as it reaches 100% for the model render it crashed as soon as the FFX render status loads up. It's frustrating as hell.

adamredwoods
09-19-2008, 11:48 AM
You can edit your scene with a text editor and try to remove the offending part.
Make a backup FIRST!

mav3rick
09-19-2008, 12:41 PM
I got Sasquatch 2 but experience it as very complicated with an extremely slow render engine, but FFX shocked me by having and even slower render engine. My interest for FFX almost died at once when I experienced how slow it really was. NT, Please dope it with some speed or rewrite the script.

Now when I´ve read the earlier posts in this thread I agree on that FFX is kind of buggy, complicated and out of date. In 2008 and you could expect much more automatic interaction of a hair plugin. As told earlier in here FFXin is far behind other 3D softwares with more user friendly interfaces where you directly sees what impact different attractions have on the scalp or feather you create. So my advice to NT is to watch and learn how the others have done. We LW users would praise you for that.

I salute you guys who work hard to find smart ways to use FFX and I hope you find a satisfaction in doing it. And we are sure a lot of users that love you for doing it... but honestly you´re doing the job that would already been done before the software was released.

how u got sasq 2? we all are waiting for it

A Mejias
09-19-2008, 01:15 PM
Sigh. Another new LW feature I'll be avoiding. I have yet to see anything that looks good/real come from FFX. Well, except for some dry grass.