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Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 12:39 PM
On the new Vista 64-bit system here, the LED for the C:\ (system drive) is constantly flashing, at least once per second, even though the system is brand new, and the OS install is new, with no other programs installed yet.

Tech support for the new, Vista-equipped PC claims that's normal for a Vista system.

My Vista notebook (32-bit) doesn't do that! Is that tech guy pulling my leg?

Q1
:help:

Sekhar
08-27-2008, 01:04 PM
Yeah, Vista goes wild in the beginning as it apparently tunes the system. It also has a field time if you're short on main memory (e.g., just 2GB). Get a 4GB USB flash drive for ReadyBoost - that's the best thing I did for my system, the system has been fast and the disk dead quiet since.

Be sure the drive is ReadyBoost compatible though - only a few are (need high enough throughput). I'm using SanDisk Cruzer, works great.

Weetos
08-27-2008, 01:05 PM
You may want to disable superfetch service (Windows key + R then services.msc to get to the service manager, then search for Superfetch, stop it and set it to 'start manually')

This service is supposed to accelerate your computer by prefetching stuff before you make use of it - the problem with that is that it keeps playing with your hard drive - that drove me nuts the first time I ran Vista :2guns:

Hope that helps :)

Lightwolf
08-27-2008, 01:08 PM
That is absolutely normal. It will get better over time though. Vista has a prefetch mechanism that speculates on what you might load next and tries to load that into unused memory.

Cheers,
Mike

Liber777
08-27-2008, 01:08 PM
Also turn off the indexing service for your system drive. The tradeoff is that searching the drive for files will be slower.

Sekhar
08-27-2008, 01:16 PM
BTW, you can track the source/volume of the disk activity through the excellent Resource Monitor tool (under Task Manager -> Performance).

shrox
08-27-2008, 01:53 PM
You may want to disable superfetch service (Windows key + R then services.msc to get to the service manager, then search for Superfetch, stop it and set it to 'start manually')...



Excellent! I have been trying to firgure out how to find that!

IgnusFast
08-27-2008, 02:42 PM
Killing Superfetch was the biggie for me - I do enough different things with my main machine that it was just silly trying to cache anything. :)

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 03:00 PM
Yeah, Vista goes wild in the beginning as it apparently tunes the system. Now that's true -- but the beginning?
Appreciate all you guys' input so far. buy Vista 64 Ultimate so far is a huge disappointmen.t for us.

Making matters worse, the folks at Microcenter (the Winbook resellers) don't seem to want to pick up the phone in the PC department. A person minding the main phone line was kind enough to walk back into the sales area, and confirmed that the drive lamp on their PowerSpec E361 is flashing constantly, too.

It's been over a month now, and that dastardly LED just keeps flashing me, so I re-installed the OS 3 days ago. Problem's still there.

Thanks for the tip on ReadyBoost but still, the lack thereof shouldn't cause drive thrashing, on a 4 GB system, now should it?

Q1
:2guns: Vista 64-Bit Ultimate (so far...)

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 03:06 PM
BTW, you can track the source/volume of the disk activity through the excellent Resource Monitor tool (under Task Manager -> Performance).Correct, Sekhar, nice tool, only when checking to see what items are the offenders in the drive-thrashing ritual that seems to plague this particular OS, you'll stare, as file images randomly appear, then vanish, inexplicably, making it more nerve-wrecking to track down the worse offender.

As for superfetch, how can that be the problem, when a user hasn't even used the OS to get any work done yet?

I'll say you guys have a lot of heart -- you actually sound like you love this thing!

If I could only go to just one place on the 'net, and find a systematic approach to whacking down Vista 64's most common pitfalls...

Q1
:hammer:
Super-fetch drive-thrashing, and a bunch more...

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 03:12 PM
Also turn off the indexing service for your system drive. The tradeoff is that searching the drive for files will be slower.Thanks Liber, but as an ardent NewTek editor, that's the very first thing I tried. That drive is still flashing like mad.

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 03:16 PM
That is absolutely normal. It will get better over time though. Naw, not from what I've been told by Microcenter tech support. Says it won't ever stop. Trust me: this ain't normal.

Microsoft has got to get their act together or they're gonna' lose out against some other OS in our lifetime.

Q1
:hey:

Lightwolf
08-27-2008, 03:19 PM
Naw, not from what I've been told by Microcenter tech support. Says it won't ever stop. Trust me: this ain't normal.


I dunno, I've been running Ultimate since November last year... it doesn't bother me.

Cheers,
Mike

kremesch73
08-27-2008, 03:38 PM
I don't have that problem. Maybe my Vista's broken. Hm, either that or the class 6 scandisk I'm using for readyboost actually does make a difference other than me honestly not really seeing what friggin advantage it's giving to me.

As for it not bothering you: I'd be concerned about the wear and tear on my hard-drive. But then again, I could just be stuck in old-school thinking still.

Sekhar
08-27-2008, 03:50 PM
Correct, Sekhar, nice tool, only when checking to see what items are the offenders in the drive-thrashing ritual that seems to plague this particular OS, you'll stare, as file images randomly appear, then vanish, inexplicably, making it more nerve-wrecking to track down the worse offender.

You can sort high to low by clicking on the Read and Write tabs at the top - the worst ones will stay stuck at the top. Once you set up ReadyBoost, you'll see that most of the disk activity will occur on that flash drive (silently!) - huge deal. I have 4GB main memory on Vista 64 too, but the disk was going crazy all the time (and if you have a noisy drive, it'll drive you nuts). Vista is heavy duty.

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 04:18 PM
Vista is heavy duty.Vista is not only heavy duty, it's ill-designed.

No video editor in his/her right mind would want a drive thrashed to death, on a brand new system with a brand new OS install like that.

Nevertheless, Sekhar, your explanation of Readyboost effected on a USB flash drive sounds like a mere "workaround" to me, but I suppose I have no choice but to give it a whirl, in the interest of giving the diskdrive a decent life expectancy.

Shame on Microsoft for this requirement for a "normally-functioning" system.

Come to think of it, what does that Readyboost scenario portend for seemingly unnecessary, constant excess data throughput across the system bus?

Thanks again, all of you, but goodness -- are Windows Vista-related forum users on the Internet really settling for this foolishness as "normal"??

Q1
:confused:

Lightwolf
08-27-2008, 04:20 PM
No video editor in his/her right mind would want a drive thrashed to death, on a brand new system with a brand new OS install like that.

If a video editor uses the system drive for video or audio data then he/she isn't in his/her right mind to start with ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Sekhar
08-27-2008, 04:43 PM
Yes, Vista can drive you crazy initially; but once you get over these hiccups and Vista does its magical learning thing, the performance can be amazing. I got my Dell Precision 390 in March 2007 with Vista Ultimate 64 bit and have had all these initial problems (not to mention the issue with 64 bit drivers, which I think is a lesser problem these days). Then a few months into it, boy did it begin kicking butt!

The crux of the problem I think is that Vista needs some serious hardware, including main memory - like 8GB or so to run flawlessly. 4GB is great, as long as you have another 4GB in ReadyBoost. My experience anyway.

I also since got a Dell XPS 1530 with Vista 32, and it has been great as well.

Bottom line, hang in there, you will reap many rewards. I would wholeheartedly recommend Vista Ultimate 64 bit to anyone doing 3D/video, especially on the Dell machines.

zapper1998
08-27-2008, 04:55 PM
Win XP 64 Bit
The Led hardley ever blinkys, I have every thing that I don't need Shutdown..
15 processes, running, that does not include the Mouse, and Wacom, and Java running
Indexing and the Language bar thingy are shut down..


Michael

DiscreetFX
08-27-2008, 05:47 PM
@Quiet1onTheSet

Your right about Vista, we gave up using it and went back to XP.

IgnusFast
08-27-2008, 06:07 PM
I wouldn't say that everyone here loves Vista- I'm actually somewhat of a hater. But I'm using it at this moment (I alternate between XP 64 Pro and Vista 64 Ultimate), and once I disabled Superfetch, all the thrashing stopped.

With Superfetch enabled, it didn't matter if I'd ever done anything with it or not - it thrashed constantly until nearly all 8 GB of RAM was full, then it would thrash a ton more as I loaded/unloaded apps. Frustrating!!

IMI
08-27-2008, 06:21 PM
I dunno, I've been running Ultimate since November last year... it doesn't bother me.

Cheers,
Mike

Since last October, for me. Ultimate x64 with 8 gigs RAM and four SATA drives (not in RAID). I don't have those problems with the drives (or anything else), and drive diagnostics show them to be perfectly healthy with normal start up times.
Indexing: off. UAC: off. Defender: off. Prefetch: On (Just because I think it's cool. ;) )
You really couldn't force me to go back to XP, even 64 bit XP, which I have installed in a dual boot. Every now and then I boot into it just to keep it updated, but while I'm there, everything seems so comparatively slow and drab.

XP is like a Monday morning on only two hours of sleep. :D

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 06:41 PM
If a video editor uses the system drive for video or audio data then he/she isn't in his/her right mind to start with ;)

Cheers,
Mike
LOL! But of *course*!

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 06:49 PM
Win XP 64 Bit
The Led hardley ever blinkys, I have every thing that I don't need Shutdown..
15 processes, running, that does not include the Mouse, and Wacom, and Java running
Indexing and the Language bar thingy are shut down..


Michael


Well Mike -- thanks for your kind assurances, but I'm puzzled:
If you've got only 15 processes running in 64-bit Vista, what on earth did you shut off other than Indexing and a "Language Bar thingy"(whatever *that* is)?

While we're at it, anybody got a list of things to shut off in services.msc (or whathaveyou) for Vista 64?

Thanks in advance.

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 06:54 PM
@Quiet1onTheSet

Your right about Vista, we gave up using it and went back to XP.

I tell you Bill, if I get my hands on a good deal for Windoze XP Professional 64-bit, I'm jumpin the over-hyped Vista-bandwagon, and fast!

If ya'ask me, Microsoft ought'a summarily apologize for Vista 64. What a gaffe!

Q1

aurora
08-27-2008, 06:57 PM
Thanks for all the Vista64 tips. But got my new laptop with Vista64 last week. Good info to know and use. Any other good tips for performance, besides turning the UAC off and turning the Aero transparency off(which I still have on)?

Quiet1onTheSet
08-27-2008, 07:03 PM
Defender: off. OK, so what are you folks using as a firewall, pray tell? Heck! Try as I might, to install ZoneAlarm, this hack of an OS won't let me.

Q1
:bangwall:

Hopper
08-27-2008, 07:11 PM
As for it not bothering you: I'd be concerned about the wear and tear on my hard-drive. But then again, I could just be stuck in old-school thinking still.
There's no question that it really is wear and tear on your drive but almost all the new drives these days have an MTBF rating of over a million hours(Raptors have 1.2 million). Pretty impressive actually considering in 1995 the average was 17,000. I wish they'd make cars that way.

But even with that, constantly beating up your drive doesn't make it healthier.

IMI
08-27-2008, 07:15 PM
OK, so what are you folks using as a firewall, pray tell? Heck! Try as I might, to install ZoneAlarm, this hack of an OS won't let me.

Q1
:bangwall:

Oh, right. I have a hardware firewall/router combination.
Aside from that, Windows Firewall isn't part of Defender. Defender is for automatic (and manual) scanning for malware. You can access both Firewall and Defender through Control Panel.
To turn off UAC, Control Panel> Security Center> Other Security Settings. You can also find all the information you need by typing F1 while the desktop has focus, and typing UAC, Defender, whatever... in the Windows Help which pops open.
(F1 of course being the universal shortcut key for Help in Windows apps)

UAC is probably preventing you from installing Zone Alarm. You have to be logged in as administrator, or you can right-click on the file and select something like "install as administrator" or something like that. Been too long since I had to worry about it I'm afraid I forgot.
UAC, is Window's version of Mary Poppins - the ultimate nanny. ;)

IMI
08-27-2008, 07:27 PM
I might as well add I *do* think it's all rather silly. I need an OS, not another mom. ;)

But I can see MS's rationale: they know most average home PC users are idiots and will download everything with FREE! stamped all over it, and will fall for all that "Your computer's security might be at risk! Download and install this now..." adware/spyware/malware crap.

So, they modeled Vista after a cross between all the Gods and yer mom. But it *can* be beaten into submission and defeated, and after that, it's fast, smooth, rock-steady, and overall very powerful, not to mention pretty. :)

I used to have some links, but just Google anything you want to know about. There TONS of Vista love and hate sites out there in internetland, and thousands of pages of "how-to", in addition to some very high tech articles explaining exactly why those of us who love Vista do... even if we can't explain it it technical terms most of the time.

jpleonard
08-27-2008, 07:37 PM
I've been using Vista 64 bit since? Well over a year now with no problems, other than it doesn't play well with Corel Paint Shop Pro Photo X2. Other than that I've never had a problem.

kremesch73
08-27-2008, 07:51 PM
Thanks for all the Vista64 tips. But got my new laptop with Vista64 last week. Good info to know and use. Any other good tips for performance, besides turning the UAC off and turning the Aero transparency off(which I still have on)?

Get rid of the stupid (system hogging and useless) sidebar.
Shaves minutes off of start-up, among other things.

Also,

I keep the Aero appearance. But under system performance, the only things I have checked (because I like them) are:

Enable Desktop composition
Show Preview and filters in folder
Show thumbnails instead of icons
Smooth edges of screen fonts
Use visual styles on windows and buttons

Everything else is unchecked, unnecessary, and everything runs fine without them.

kremesch73
08-27-2008, 07:57 PM
I've been using Vista 64 bit since? Well over a year now with no problems, other than it doesn't play well with Corel Paint Shop Pro Photo X2. Other than that I've never had a problem.

Have you tried running it in xpsp2 compatibility? Dunno if it'll work, but worth a shot if you haven't tried. Also, some paint programs that don't play well with Vista benefit from lowering your virtual disk space.

mattclary
08-27-2008, 08:30 PM
The fdisk command will usually fix most Vista related issues. I just used that to fix a customer's laptop today.

kremesch73
08-27-2008, 08:38 PM
Ah yes, fdisk...

Now... Where did my partition go?

Hopper
08-27-2008, 09:09 PM
The fdisk command will usually fix most Vista related issues. I just used that to fix a customer's laptop today.
format c: /MBR is also a favorite fix-all solution to a nasty virus like that.. :D

IMI
08-28-2008, 01:56 AM
format c: /MBR is also a favorite fix-all solution to a nasty virus like that.. :D


Works great for those off-the-shelf so-called computers people pick up at Best Buys, Circuit City, and even Wal Mart. ;)

You know what the coolest thing about Vista is though?
Used to be we PC people only had Mac people to pick on, but Vista has enabled us to go at each other for a nice change of pace. :D

IMI
08-28-2008, 02:02 AM
Best OS for me, so far. Runs like a dream.

Yeah, and I don't know about you, but I've noticed my 8800 GTS shows considerable performance boosts in both OGL and DX apps using the appropriate and current Nvidia 64 bit drivers, under Vista x64, as opposed to XP x64, on the same machine.
Better benchmarks in 3D Mark and Deep Exploration as well.

IMI
08-28-2008, 02:06 AM
"Why can't I have [insert application name here] for OSX?" seems to be their favored battle cry. :)
I hear it everywhere, over and over and over...

Yes, it does seem odd that the best graphics platform on the planet would always be the last to get the bestest graphics apps. They're still waiting on 9.5, aren't they? ;) Do they even have 64 bit technology for Mac yet?

Lightwolf
08-28-2008, 03:10 AM
OK, so what are you folks using as a firewall, pray tell?
Defender isn't the firewall, it's more of a virus/spyware checker.

Cheers,
Mike

Verlon
08-28-2008, 05:08 AM
Quiet1...
Perhaps you would like to try Windows Mojave instead. I hear its MUCH better than Vista. Microsoft is still testing it. :devil:

If you want, I have a full copy of XP64 that I am not using (I got a full version of Vista). I am not sure about the transfer, but its a legit copy of XP upgraded to X64 that isn't installed on any system right now.

As for OSX, I hear the new version is actually 63/65 bit hybrid so that the Mac guys still have something to complain about, but can brag about the extra bit when they want to be better than pcs :)

safetyman
08-28-2008, 06:14 AM
I wholeheartedly agree: Going back to XP now seems like returning to the dark ages. I had drive thrashing in the beginning, but turning off Superfetch, the search caching, and Defender, fixed it. Even with the search thing turned off, I find that searches are fast. I have never had a crash, an incompatible driver, or a virus of any kind. People can hate on Vista all they want -- I just laugh and go back to enjoying my system.

SBowie
08-28-2008, 07:24 AM
Depending on what you do, I'd consider leaving Defender on. I don't find it very intrusive, and it's fairly decent at what it does.

ted
08-28-2008, 09:35 AM
We've been happily using Vista Ult-64 for over a year with no problems. Of course we only use it for editing, PhotoShop and Encore.
We have defender on.
I'll have to check on the Super Fetch.

Great discussion. Keep it going.

avkills
08-28-2008, 09:41 AM
Yes, it does seem odd that the best graphics platform on the planet would always be the last to get the bestest graphics apps. They're still waiting on 9.5, aren't they? ;) Do they even have 64 bit technology for Mac yet?

Funny though that LW9.5 is not really what I would call a "graphics app". Desktop publishing or photo work is pretty much what I'd consider when someone says "graphics apps". And although Vista will get 64bit Photoshop before OS X, the main reason for that is that Apple boned Adobe by not developing the carbon 64bit APIs. Although in Apple's defense the writing was pretty much on the wall to convert to Cocoa APIs. And the main reason nearly everyone in desktop publishing uses Macs is the fact that color syncing and profiling has been a part of the Mac OS since the old school OS 8 and 9 days.

Myself personally can wait for Newtek to get things right before releasing 9.5 as they also have the Carbon vs. Cocoa API problem for the 64bit version; so you can't really blame Newtek or Apple; things progress and things break in the world of Apple - which to some just does not fly; but I am not really broken up too much since OS X is a lot less bloated than many other OSs.

Technically Apple had 64bit CPUs before the switch to Intel, so in reality Apple went to 64bit hardware before Wintels. Not much good though without a 64bit OS; I guess you could have installed Linux... :D

Personally all the jib jabbing you guys do about OS X and Mac hardware is either wrong, stupid and a plain waste of time since both platforms use the exact same hardware.

---- Enough of that ----

Personally I have found Windows in general to be a lot harder on drives than any other OS I have dealt with.

-mark

Titus
08-28-2008, 09:43 AM
I have all flavors of Windows on my studio, I can't run all my apps on Vista, that's a bummer.

Lightwolf
08-28-2008, 09:44 AM
Technically Apple had 64bit CPUs before the switch to Intel, so in reality Apple went to 64bit hardware before Wintels.
Not quite, AMD released the Opteron months before the G5 Macs came out, and it did have a running 64-bit version of Linux as well.

Cheers,
Mike

avkills
08-28-2008, 09:44 AM
You may wonder why I am posting in this thread...well I am considering which version of Windows I will be putting on the Mac Pro when it arrives; so I am interested in any weirdness that Vista64 has. ;)

(I need Windows for certain things... mostly Powerpoint conversions)

-mark

avkills
08-28-2008, 09:45 AM
Not quite, AMD released the Opteron months before the G5 Macs came out, and it did have a running 64-bit version of Linux as well.

Cheers,
Mike

True, I was going to bring that up.. but forgot... but then again a Opteron + Linux isn't really a "Wintel". :D

-mark

kremesch73
08-28-2008, 10:48 AM
You may wonder why I am posting in this thread...well I am considering which version of Windows I will be putting on the Mac Pro when it arrives; so I am interested in any weirdness that Vista64 has. ;)

(I need Windows for certain things... mostly Powerpoint conversions)

-mark

Only weirdness/annoyance I know of is the hard drive thrashing and the UAC (turn it off if you want to avoid grief). But I believe we already covered that. At this point in time, most bugginess has been worked out by software and hardware vendors through patches and upgrades. Therefore, depending on the conversion software you're using, and depending on how conscious the vendors are about their software being compatible, things can either run smoothly or disasterous. Also, regarding powerpoint, I believe anything including and above office XP should run fine.

Quiet1onTheSet
08-28-2008, 11:22 AM
I'm not sure what people whine so much aboutThe unnecessary harddrive thrashing, most particularly epitomized in Vista 64-bit Ultimate edition.

At its best behavior, newly installed, (and after high-volume drive activity has "settled down", even after three weeks), the drive LED flashes at least once every single second, even if no additional programs were installed on the system.

So, Never -- what did you (or anyone else still lurking) do to circumvent that? Thanks for sharing your experience...

Q1

kremesch73
08-28-2008, 11:50 AM
You have the sidebar on? I found it really lagged my startup.

avkills
08-28-2008, 12:13 PM
More bloat -> waste bin.

That is something we can all agree on. I wish Apple would allow more "eye-candy" BS to be turned off.

-mark

Lightwolf
08-28-2008, 12:19 PM
True, I was going to bring that up.. but forgot... but then again a Opteron + Linux isn't really a "Wintel". :D

True... but then again, it took Apple until Leopard to release a full* 64-bit OS.

Cheers,
Mike
*Well, half of the APIs are 32bit only, but it's a start.

kremesch73
08-28-2008, 12:39 PM
That is something we can all agree on. I wish Apple would allow more "eye-candy" BS to be turned off.

-mark

That's the least impressive thing that MS thinks we want - eye candy BS.

I have nothing against a modern look, but when it comes to the dashboard appearance - apple, or vista's sidebar, it really puts me off, and from the speculation on windows 7, MS is under the impression that this is what the mass majority wants (they could be right). But it's not what I want, and I'll be happy as long as I can turn those useless features off.

I don't know about other people, but I don't turn on my pc to sit there and stare at the pretty widgets, and when I open an application, I can't see them. Therefore, they're useless, and useless = bloatware, and bloatware is only good for one thing - turning it off.

avkills
08-28-2008, 01:01 PM
*Well, half of the APIs are 32bit only, but it's a start.

I hope you're not holding your breath for the other half... ;) :p

-mark

Lightwolf
08-28-2008, 01:49 PM
I have nothing against a modern look, but when it comes to the dashboard appearance - apple, or vista's sidebar, it really puts me off, and from the speculation on windows 7, MS is under the impression that this is what the mass majority wants (they could be right).
Probably. I just use Launchy nowadays and that's it. And if I need to browse my files... win-e and I'm there.

Having said that, the window previews in Vista (on the Taskbar) are very useful, i.e. to check the progress on a task running in the background without needing to switch over or shuffle windows.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
08-28-2008, 01:51 PM
I hope you're not holding your breath for the other half... ;) :p
No I tend to use cross platform APIs whenever I can anyhow. I might pick up Objective-C out of curiosity in the future, but that's just about it.

Cheers
Mike

kremesch73
08-28-2008, 01:55 PM
the window previews in Vista (on the Taskbar) are very useful, i.e. to check the progress on a task running in the background without needing to switch over or shuffle windows.

I agree. That's one of the features that I keep because I find it useful. In fact, I really like it.

IMI
08-28-2008, 03:45 PM
You have the sidebar on? I found it really lagged my startup.

I can proudly say that was the first thing I turned off, the first time I booted.
I looked at it and thought, what the hell is that supposed to do for me?
ZAP! Gone, never to be seen again...

Anyone else interested, if you type services.msc into the Run box, it'll open a window showing all the services installed on your system and enable you to disable them, set them to automatic or manual, as well as give a semi-detailed explanation.
There are some which would be a really bad idea to turn off, and those come with warnings. Most are optional and just there to help with some non-critical task or other. Superfetch, for one, is found there.

DiscreetFX
08-28-2008, 07:45 PM
@Lightwolf

Objective-C is awesome.

IMI
08-28-2008, 08:09 PM
Personally all the jib jabbing you guys do about OS X and Mac hardware is either wrong, stupid and a plain waste of time since both platforms use the exact same hardware.


-mark

You know, I really wasn't serious, just messing around, which is why I included the little wink icon thingy.

Well, you get a bunch of Windoze people hanging around in a thread, discussing O/S's, sooner or later, someone is going to make a Mac crack. It's all in good fun. You Mac people are entirely too defensive and serious much of the time. ;)

"Jib jabbing" is a waste of time, eh? Well, sure, but then again, I suppose almost all forms of entertainment are a waste of time, too. ;)

danielkaiser
08-28-2008, 09:43 PM
Correct, Sekhar, nice tool, only when checking to see what items are the offenders in the drive-thrashing ritual that seems to plague this particular OS, you'll stare, as file images randomly appear, then vanish, inexplicably, making it more nerve-wrecking to track down the worse offender.

As for superfetch, how can that be the problem, when a user hasn't even used the OS to get any work done yet?

I'll say you guys have a lot of heart -- you actually sound like you love this thing!

If I could only go to just one place on the 'net, and find a systematic approach to whacking down Vista 64's most common pitfalls...

Q1
:hammer:
Super-fetch drive-thrashing, and a bunch more...

Try this.

http://www.speedyvista.com/registry.php

Also set up a thumb drive for ready boost, speeds alot of things up, I have Vista Ultimate X64 booting up from log on to usable desk top in about 10 seconds.

RedBull
08-28-2008, 09:51 PM
Here is a post i posted on the subject quite sometime back. (1 year or so)
I have 2x Vista x64 machines and both suffer from the same issue.

"Does anyone else (or everyone else) have this issue with Vista...
My HDD LED flickers continuously every 1 second for as long as my PC is on (all the time)

Most files are being written by System (PID 4)

C:\$MSFT
thumbcache_idx.db
NTFS Volume.log

However these only occur every 30 seconds to a minute.
svchost.exe(LocalServiceNetworkRes*tricted) (PID 984) Looking at PID 984, we see the following 3 services(processes) using that PID.

Eventlog. (My guess is this one, because Access is denied to shutting down the service, and it would be very Microsoft of Microsoft to not allow such an important feature be shut-off)

DHCP Client (Possibly?)
Windows Audio (I doubt it)

lastalive0.dat, lastalive1.dat is Written by svhost.exe is written every 1 seconds or so. I have turned off most things like indexing, search, readyboost, superfetch, and any other non-necessary services. It's writing 1KB/sec constantly.

Anyway i can't shutdown Eventlog and stop this from happening, at this point it makes me want to go back to XP64. HDD can never sleep or quieten down, because Vista won't allow it too.

Was this addressed in SP1 at all? I notice that the problem seems common, but i have seen no solutions or reasoning behind the constant activity."

After i posted this i tracked this thread down on the MS forums, but again it seems Microsoft just ignored the thousands of people with the issue (surprise!)

http://forums.microsoft.com/technet/showpost.aspx?pageindex=1&siteid=17&postid=1994652&sb=0&d=1&at=7&ft=11&tf=0&pageid=5

Quiet1onTheSet
08-29-2008, 08:17 AM
I agree. That's one of the features that I keep because I find it useful. In fact, I really like it.Hmmm. This "Windows Preview on the Taskbar" thingy -- How do'ya effect that, and what's it really called?

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
08-29-2008, 08:19 AM
Try this.

http://www.speedyvista.com/registry.php

...I have Vista Ultimate X64 booting up from log on to usable desk top in about 10 seconds.
What, on an 8-core desktop, Dan? :D Seriously, we appreciate your input on this, and thanks for that handy link. Will get on it shortly.

Q1

Lightwolf
08-29-2008, 08:22 AM
Hmmm. This "Windows Preview on the Taskbar" thingy -- How do'ya effect that, and what's it really called?

"Taskbar window preview/thumbnail" ?
http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/help/45a1b648-87a8-4e1a-86ab-1becc2a581441033.mspx#section_4

Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
08-29-2008, 08:47 AM
Daily Vista Rant:

I use Vista daily. Every. Single. Day.

I do QA testing for a software company, I test our product on Vista. Been using Vista pretty much since it went public.

Today's gripe:
When you search for files in Vista, when said files are listed you are not allowed to display them in a true "Detail" view. In XP, when you ask for a detail view of search results, it will show you the path to the file. Vista won't allow you to do that. If you have a list of 10 files and want to know their location, you have to right click and open the location. Don't get me started on how things have to take 20 seconds to refresh before you can right click the next found file....

When you use a computer in such a way that you need to dig into it's guts, you need to have full access to everything on that computer.

I feel like Vista fights me at every step. Linux is often difficult to get stuff done, but I never feel that it is actively attempting to thwart your every move.

I've said it before and I will say it again: MS has dumbed Windows down. In an attempt to make it idiot proof, they have made it more difficult to use for people who know what they are doing.

If all you ever do is run an app, yeah, Vista get's the job done, but step out of that little circle and you will find that MS has fenced you in.

kremesch73
08-29-2008, 09:22 AM
Hmmm. This "Windows Preview on the Taskbar" thingy -- How do'ya effect that, and what's it really called?

Q1

Show Preview and filters in folder (not available in Vista Basic)

Right click on 'computer' in the start menu, select properties, go to advanced tab and select 'settings' under the performance tab. In there you can turn things on/off.

On page 2 of this post, I have a short list of the things I have turned on.

@mattclary
I found a workaround for that, but I can't remember off-hand and I'm on XP at work right now. I'll take a look later (unless someone else comes up with a solution before then) :)

kremesch73
08-29-2008, 09:28 AM
@mattclary
I found a workaround for that, but I can't remember off-hand and I'm on XP at work right now. I'll take a look later (unless someone else posts a solution before then) :)
Also, it shouldn't be taking that long to refresh, I highly suspect something else is interferring (antivirus, sidebar, third-party firewall, etc...) I don't know how serious you are about about seeing an improvement, but try disabling different things of the aforementioned nature (one at a time) to find the culprit.

mattclary
08-29-2008, 11:00 AM
@mattclary
I found a workaround for that, but I can't remember off-hand and I'm on XP at work right now. I'll take a look later (unless someone else posts a solution before then) :)
Also, it shouldn't be taking that long to refresh, I highly suspect something else is interferring (antivirus, sidebar, third-party firewall, etc...) I don't know how serious you are about about seeing an improvement, but try disabling different things of the aforementioned nature (one at a time) to find the culprit.

Yeah, unfortunately, tracking down little niggling things just takes too much time, just usually deal with it or figure out another way to accomplish my needs. But by all means, if you remember how you fixed it, let me know.

mattclary
08-29-2008, 01:30 PM
Next gripe of the day:

Change view of a folder, apply to all folders. Guess what? It will RESET the view you just set for the "My Computer" folder and will not apply to all folders. Only ones it thinks you don't "really" want to see as freaking tiles!

kremesch73
08-29-2008, 03:04 PM
Next gripe of the day:

Change view of a folder, apply to all folders. Guess what? It will RESET the view you just set for the "My Computer" folder and will not apply to all folders. Only ones it thinks you don't "really" want to see as freaking tiles!

That one's a big gripe of mine too. Still haven't figured that one out. Even if I change the view of a folder, then leave, come back, the friggin thing is set to the view that I changed it from again. I have a tendency to create holding (temp) folders so I don't get confused as to where I'm at when editing documents, and I often have to jump between folders that I have open in two different windows to simplify things, and I'll tell ya, it really gets my goat when the view reverts without me even closing the [email protected]#ing window.

That's basically the only thing I hate about Vista though, besides the fact that I miss how a folder would automatically expand when I clicked on it in the explorer view with XP. (not enough to go back though, just enough for me to continue to try and find ways to show windows that I'M THE FRIGGIN BOSS!

Quiet1onTheSet
08-30-2008, 08:13 AM
That is absolutely normal. It will get better over time though. Vista has a prefetch mechanism that speculates on what you might load next and tries to load that into unused memory.Just another thought or two on this:

My issue likely isn't the prefetch mechanism at all. I spoke to PowerSpec Technical support people about our recently-acquired machine with Windows 64-bit Ultimate, and while he asked me to delete all the Prefetch files (which had absolutely no discernible benefit by the way), he says that the reality is, that the harddrive thrashing seen especially in 64-bit Vista, is not normal, and that Windows Vista 64 needs to be fixed by Microsoft.

In a normally-behaving OS, you really shouldn't have to disable a bunch of functions to get the harddisk activity to quiet down.

He also says that adding 4GB more memory (than the 4 GB which ships with this system!!) will often help minimize the effects of the problem reaching the hard drives.

He suspects Microsoft isn't being very helpful to those posting drive-thrashing complaints to their very own forums, because they haven't got a true fix for the problem yet.

Q1
:2guns::hammer:

Quiet1onTheSet
08-31-2008, 06:35 AM
You may want to disable superfetch service (Windows key + R then services.msc to get to the service manager, then search for Superfetch, stop it and set it to 'start manually')

This service is supposed to accelerate your computer by prefetching stuff before you make use of it - the problem with that is that it keeps playing with your hard drive - that drove me nuts the first time I ran Vista :2guns:

Hope that helps :)Thanks, Weetos. Tried this, but the one-thrash-per-second or so harddisk conundrum under Vista 64 continues...

'Have to bump this system up to 8GB from 4, to get the system to thrash the RAM sticks instead(?)

Q1
:thumbsdow

IgnusFast
08-31-2008, 03:44 PM
I totally agree that disabling Superfetch fixes a lot of the problems with Vista. But I still disagree as far as it not being inherently broken. It has some major file i/o issues that SP1 still hasn't fixed. Whether it's because of DRM or just too much of a re-write, both network AND local file copies are slow and occasionally fail.

Vista is MS's future, so unless we want to just switch to something else, we just have to suck it up. But MAN I hope they can/will patch it better.

RedBull
08-31-2008, 08:40 PM
Disabling Superfetch will completely disable this behaviour. I have a Vista x86 system and a Vista x64 system. The behaviour is exactly the same for both systems and disabling Superfetch will eliminate the constant disk access issue. It also works for every single person I know who runs Vista.

If you read the Microsoft Technet forums link i posted, you would realize it has nothing to do with SuperFetch.

"I have turned off most things like indexing, search, readyboost, superfetch, and any other non-necessary services. It's writing 1KB/sec constantly"
As has everybody else on the technet forums, and the problems still exist.

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 07:47 AM
I have to call Bull on that support answer you got there. Sounds like they're trying to sell you more memory. If you need more then fine, but if you don't specifically need 8 Gb, I wouldn't go out and buy it in hope of that fixing your problem.Naw. Tech support isn't selling more RAM at all (I'd buy it elsewhere besides).

Instead, they're suggesting that Vista 64 has a more pronounced, habitual abuse problem with slinging drives around like they're of no value to the owner.

As for any additional RAM not solving the problem, even after 4GB has already shipped with the system, what of the positive, glowing testimonies of quite a few individuals relative to increasing RAM or adding a 4GB flash jaunt to stop the madness?


... Get a 4GB USB flash drive for ReadyBoost - that's the best thing I did for my system, the system has been fast and the disk dead quiet since.

Be sure the drive is ReadyBoost compatible though - only a few are (need high enough throughput). I'm using SanDisk Cruzer, works great.

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 08:03 AM
...I've been running Vista Ultimate x64 for a long time and there's nothing inherently broken about it...

I have to call Bull on that support answer :D

...The disk-thrashing on a new system is completely normal as described. Superfetch is learning and optimizing it's read patterns.
But Neverko, my friend, that seems so pre - er, I mean, far-fetched. Think of it: Superfetch shouldn't need to learn anything on a fresh, 64-bit Ultimate system if its user hadn't even performed a software install, nor used the box for anything just yet -- even after 4 weeks.

You must mean it's been sitting there thrashing my drives to an early grave, while learning to play with itself!

Q1
:hey:

steamthunk
09-01-2008, 08:14 AM
I have only disabled the C: drive indexing at this point and System Protection. The restore point generation was totally thrashing my system any time anything was installed at all. The drive would go on spinning for a good 30 minutes while it created a back up of the entire system (seemingly). This seems really broken to me since now I have no real way of doing restore points. Vista deletes the restore point if you disable this feature. I might re-activate it now that I'm done most of my config on the system, but this was my biggest drive trash issue.

As far as day-to-day, I get a constant amount of drive activity on booting for first 15-20 minutes. Then things go quiet.

There's a Lenovo laptop with 32-bit Vista at the office which also gets thrashy drivewise, but I haven't dealt with that yet.

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 09:01 AM
If you read the Microsoft Technet forums link i posted, you would realize it has nothing to do with SuperFetch.

Utterly agree. Thanks, RedBull, for posting that, by the way. Why people are confusing this incessant drive read/write activity once every second with SuperFetch's even more aggressive drive humiliation (and calling *that* normal) is beyond me.

Q1

IMI
09-01-2008, 09:04 AM
I'd have to wonder what the people experiencing this problem have in common with their systems. OEM's? Certain types and brands of drives? Certain brands of memory? certain OEM manufacturers of motherboards?

I now have two PC's running Vista Ultimate x64. I just assembled a new one the other night. I had some major troubles with that because it turns out the Asus Rampage board I got had problems, so I used a new Asus P5Q Pro I had for my next addition to my little render "garden" (I can hardly call it a farm. ;) )
Anyway, this PC is the P5Q with 8 gb of OCZ Reaper RAM at 1066, Intel quad core 9550 (45nm) @ 2.83 ghz, with an nvidia 8800 GTS, and Vista Ultimate OEM x64 is installed on a Western Digital "caviar" SATA 250 GB drive with a 90 GB partition for the OS, and basic programs, and the rest for LW and so on. Plus I have another WD Caviar SATA drive @ 160 GB, for 3D content and such.
The other machine ( I built last year) with Vista Ultimate x64 (retail) on it is an AMD dual core 6000+ (90nm technology) OC's slightly to 3.1 ghz, with 8 gb of OCZ Reaper RAM @ 800 mhz, with the same two drive types as the above, on an Asus 590 board, also with an nvidia 8800 gts.
I have disabled superfetch on both of them now, but even before, didn't have these troubles to any extent. Now I get a little bit of that drive thing going on, but nothing out of the ordinary, and nothing continuous. Pretty much what neverko described seeing on his machine.

Well, I don't have any solutions to offer, and all I can do is give my specs. Two very different machines, running the same 64 bit OS, neither of which are showing these problems.
I'm just saying this because I can't see it as a necessarily inherent problem with Vista x64. Granted, it's possible I just got lucky with both, but I doubt it has anything to do with luck.

I really don't think anyone should buy a pre-built OEM PC if they want reliability and performance, if they're planning on running Vista. Just my opinion. It's not difficult to learn how to put together a good, stable system, just takes some research, and it can be quite a bit less expensive to build a high performance PC than to buy one from a retailer.

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 09:07 AM
I'd have to wonder what the people experiencing this problem have in common with their systems. OEM's? Certain types and brands of drives? Certain brands of memory? certain OEM manufacturers of motherboards?

Um, it's called "Microsoft"!

Q1
:thumbsdow

IMI
09-01-2008, 09:13 AM
Um, it's called "Microsoft"!

Q1
:thumbsdow

Yeah, I thought about that as I was reading over what I wrote after I posted. ;)

Well, I'm sorry you're going through this, for what that's worth. Is it impacting your PC's performance? Most of that stuff is low priority and shouldn't really affect anything much. And as has been mentioned, modern drives are made for abuse. Myself, I replace my drives every two years or so, whether they show signs of trouble or not.
If it were me, I'd just return it for a replacement, regardless of what the tech people say.

Good luck, and I hope you get it worked out. :)

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 09:16 AM
I'd have to wonder what the people experiencing this problem have in common with their systems. OEM's? Certain types and brands of drives? Certain brands of memory? certain OEM manufacturers of motherboards?

...and Vista Ultimate OEM x64 is installed on a Western Digital "caviar" SATA 250 GB drive

[quote=IMI]Now I get a little bit of that drive thing going on, but nothing out of the ordinary, and nothing continuous. A little bit? Well, if you aren't doing anything but sitting there watching the world go 'round, and you're not connected to the Internet, and have no additional programs installed on your system drive (which happens to be a WD Caviar 250GB SATA drive such as you have by the way), beyond Windows Vista 64-bit Ultimate (sic -- what a misnomer!) -- I say you should have none of that drive thing going on!

That, friends would be "normal".


I really don't think anyone should buy a pre-built OEM PC if they want reliability and performance, if they're planning on running Vista. Interesting you say that, while suggesting that Vista 64-bit doesn't have an abnormality.

In the tonal inflection of that great and notable 'dane named Scooby:
"H-h-hah-roo-oo-ughh?"

But seriously, thanks for your kind sentiments, there, IMI.


Q1
:D

Sekhar
09-01-2008, 09:56 AM
Q1, I'd again suggest you check out Resource Monitor to identify exactly what is causing the disk activity.

E.g., if programs/services are taking up too much main memory, the disk activity could be from paging. Adding a 4GB (the max) ReadyBoost drive should fix this. Adding main memory will also do it, but that costs more.

It could also be from other activities like indexing for search. If it's Vista indexing, you can control the level. Other stuff like Google Desktop or Picasa will also index when the machine is idle.

Again, what to do should become obvious once you check out Resource Monitor.

IMI
09-01-2008, 09:58 AM
Interesting you say that, while suggesting that Vista 64-bit doesn't have an abnormality.


I don't think it's Vista's "abnormality". It's fairly well-documented that not alot of hardware is yet optimized for use with Vista. Drives are my weakest area of knowledge, but I don't really think it's just the drive type and manufacturer. Could be the RAM, could be the mobo, could be a combination of several things.

I can't really say what it's up to while I'm not using it, but just sitting here watching task manager, it looks perfectly normal to me.
Did you turn indexing off? Is it set to defrag automatically? Any kind of automatic scanning of any sort going on? OEM's as you probably know, often come installed with a bunch of nannyware and crapware which might not be so obvious. You ougth to go into services.msc and really have a good look at what all's going on, check out the defrag schedule, defender and any anti-virus automatic tasks, and all that.
Maybe you have, I haven't read all this thread, so if this sounds like useless or redundant information, I apologize.
I also have a Gateway PC with XP x86 on it here in my office which I use for business-related things, and as I type this, it's drive LED is doing more than either of my two main PC's here with Vista.
The little bugger's up to something, maybe I ought to check it out. ;)

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 03:12 PM
E.g., if programs/services are taking up too much main memory, the disk activity could be from paging.Really?? On a 4GB system, with no other programs installed, and with the system not yet being utilized at all???

Man, oh,*MAY'IN* -- What kind of crock of an OS is this Windows Vista 64-bit Ultimate, anyway? Resource monitor shows a near-dizzying array of background processes jumping in and out of the equation for seemingly needless disk activity.

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 03:22 PM
I don't think it's Vista's "abnormality". It's fairly well-documented that not alot of hardware is yet optimized for use with Vista.You've *got* to be referring to mere peripherals.

Any PC motherboard, hard disk drive, RAM, etc., made today ought to have factored into their design, optimization for Vista.

Those who are suggesting I turn off this, or turn off that after checking for disk activity with the Resource Monitor can rest assured I probably have already.Only think I haven't done that's been recommended, is adding 4GB flash RAM with ReadyBoost enabled, or added an additional 4GB of system RAM.

You must have no idea just how jacked up this situation really is here. I like someone's suggestion to simply return the entire machine (although I must state, I think it represented a terrific value before watching the drive activity under that blasted 64-bit Vista Ultimate. Has Microsoft at all ever publicly apologized for this gaffe?

Q1

Sekhar
09-01-2008, 04:12 PM
Q1, I can see you're frustrated; but it doesn't help to blame Vista before you're figured out what the problem is.

You might want to read up a bit more about Vista and OS in general. OS has two basic functions: provide a "virtual" (i.e., simple) interface to the hardware and optimize the resources. In the process of optimizing, OS could do a ton of things that might look useless, but they aren't.

E.g., hard disk running may or may not be an issue. Just because the disk is spinning when you're not running a program, it doesn't mean the OS is broken. The OS could be doing any number of things in the background, like what I mentioned earlier. E.g., your OS may be defragmenting (your version does so periodically) to make the disk respond better.

I've seen a lot of Vista bashing by folks who only have a peripheral understanding of what an OS is, and it's crazy. Please don't fall into that trap. I've been dealing with a whole range of OS versions (even built a small OS) over two grad programs, including a Ph.D. in Computer Science, and I can tell you Vista is better than folks make it out to be.

Now, if you're decided on dumping Vista and are just looking for enough negative responses to support your decision, that's another matter. But I felt it necessary to write this. Good luck, and hope you have your problems resolved.

IMI
09-01-2008, 04:54 PM
You must have no idea just how jacked up this situation really is here. I like someone's suggestion to simply return the entire machine (although I must state, I think it represented a terrific value before watching the drive activity under that blasted 64-bit Vista Ultimate. Has Microsoft at all ever publicly apologized for this gaffe?

Q1

Well, that was my suggestion, to return the machine regardless of what the tech people tell you... unless someone else suggested the same thing too.
You're right, I *dont* know how "jacked up" the situation is there, and you didn't answer my question about whether it's impacting your performance or not.



Really?? On a 4GB system, with no other programs installed, and with the system not yet being utilized at all???

Well, maybe you haven't actually tried simply using the PC for your LW or other work yet? Why not see how it runs programs while doing all this other background stuff?
You say you turned everything off. Did you check for background processes on a schedule such as virus scans and defrag? And any other number of things?



You've *got* to be referring to mere peripherals.

Any PC motherboard, hard disk drive, RAM, etc., made today ought to have factored into their design, optimization for Vista.


Not necessarily. Actually, there's quite a bit of brand new hardware out there which has drivers not yet officially supported by Microsoft for Vista. That's what began the whole Vista controversy in the first place - the way MS tried to force OEM System Builders into developing their own drivers, and to do it mighty quick, because XP support was rapidly coming to a close. There are quite a few PC's out there which were built and sold which shouldn't ever have had Vista on them.

But in any event, you're an unhappy customer, whether right or whether wrong, the customer is always right. I would expect nothing less of the dealer to blame it on MS, but then you need to ask him why they're selling PC's with problems...
Again, were I you, I would demand they take it back and issue a refund or replacement. I wouldn't rule out the possibility you have a bad drive and Vista is stumbling over something.

IMI
09-01-2008, 06:51 PM
Well now....

OK, Q1, don't feel so bad - at least your HDD is still working. Yeah, that WD Caviar 250 GB SATA Vista is tossing around like a rag doll...
Mine's not. :(

As I was typing up my previous reply to you I was transferring about 6 gigs of textures and models over my network from my other PC, and a few minutes later everything froze up. I mean froze solid, no BSOD, even, just complete inactivity. I had to hit the reset button and then was greeted not by the BIOS screen, but by the S.M.A.R.T. tool telling me that drive was bad and needed to be replaced. Yeah, the one with the OS on it. :cursin:

Well, it booted, but I was immediately greeted by Windows telling me I had a failing drive and needed to do a backup and right quick-like. Well, I didn't do that, because I already have everything on this other PC, plus on my external, so it was no big deal, and I downloaded and ran the WD diagnostic tool. Told me I had a bad cable, which is outright wrong, but...whatever. I shut down, replaced the cable, tried to reboot, no OS disk found, replaced the cable *and* plugged a new SATA power connector into the modular Zalman PSU I have and still.... nothing. Drive's simply dead, not even spinning, vibrating, nothing. Bad drive. **** happens.
So now I have Vista installing on the 160 GB drive in there, which, incidentally, tested fine.

Unfortunately, the drive was out of warranty, so, 55 bucks down the drain. I *really* wanted to buy one of those new WD Veloci-Raptors, but the wife convinced me I didn't need it, shouldn't spend the extra cash, and I *do* have a good record with WD HDD's. Out of a dozen or so I've owned, I've only had one go bad before this, and that one made it about 6 months. I think I'm gonna be "allowed" to buy the Raptor now though. I just have to degrade myself with alot of whining, begging and pleading. ;)

The moral of the story is, I'm still not afraid of Vista. :D

DiscreetFX
09-01-2008, 07:44 PM
MS chose to develop Vista and customers can choose to not use it if Vista does not fit their needs.

:thumbsup:

IMI
09-01-2008, 08:00 PM
MS chose to develop Vista and customers can choose to not use it if Vista does not fit their needs.

:thumbsup:

Not really. While people's XP disks will still work with current hardware, and people will still be able to run XP for a while, eventually that's going to change.
Not to mention, MS will end support for XP, meaning no new patches, updates, or service packs. That will be relatively soon, actually, and people running XP will be vulnerable to all kinds of malware invented after the fact.

And, you won't be able to buy a new PC anywhere with XP on it, so you'll have to build your own, or hang onto your old machines. Might come a day where the newer RAM, processors and... everything... require Vista or later....

Don't blame MS, though - they're just making money, running a business and all that. What those opposed to MS and Vista and beyond really need to do is heavily petition our favorite software makers to make their programs for Linux, or whatever else might come down the tubes in the future.
What we really need is something separate from the mainstream, home PC user operating system.
If Vista has any major flaws, it's because it's bloated with nannyware, dumbed down for the NON- power user, mainstream, non-LW-user market who largely have no clue how to do anything but send and receive email and download pr0n. ;)

RedBull
09-01-2008, 08:13 PM
Utterly agree. Thanks, RedBull, for posting that, by the way. Why people are confusing this incessant drive read/write activity once every second with SuperFetch's even more aggressive drive humiliation (and calling *that* normal) is beyond me.

Q1

Yep it's a real issue, you can see i tried tracking the culprit as much as possible..Initially I had thought the ICH9 Intel AHCI HDD controller may of been at fault, but I reloaded a 2nd machine AMD X2 with Nforce4, and it developed the same issue and now does the same thing as well...

So i have two x64 Vista machines that never stop flashing a blue and yellow lights respectively. I have a laptop that does not exhibit the issues, however it's running Vista Home Premium 32. I had hoped that SP1 would fix it, but really with MS, It's wishful thinking they would ever fix a real problems with their OS... If anybody ever finds the fix, I would be most interested to hear it.

IMI
09-01-2008, 08:22 PM
This whole discussion reminds me of the way some people here get ripped a new one when they suggest LW is somehow deficient because "it's just broken and sucks and NT won't fix it!", while others say, "it works just fine, there must be something wrong with your settings!"
No?

So, those of us claiming to not have these problems are either lying, or have something else going on inside our machines than those who don't.
Aside from the OS itself, what is the common thread? I already asked that, but the question was blown off as if it didn't even matter... because it's alot more palatable to blame faceless, greedy MS than it is to blame one's own property, or oneself ?

Quiet1onTheSet
09-01-2008, 08:28 PM
The moral of the story is, I'm still not afraid of Vista. :DOh, but I'll bet your brand new Veloci-Raptor will be!:hey:

Thank you fellas, for trying to encourage me to hang in there, and try other workarounds.

It's been suggested that perhaps this Vista 64-bit Ultimate is doing some defragging in the background. Defragging? On a just-installed OS, on a brand new PC with no applications on it yet???

Also, I'm not using antivirus programs, since I've uninstalled the NOD32 trial edition from ESET that shipped with the OS (the PC's not online).

The odd behavior occurred with the brand new OEM Hitachi SATA drives which shipped with the machine (two, hardware-striped 500GB drives), which I have since reformatted for video use only (software RAID 0 striped instead, now);

As it currently stands, the drive thrashes are occurring on the brand new WD SATA drive instead.

The dealer has granted us permission to return the machine. Will let y'all know how all this ends up. Be well, and thanks again, all.

Q1

IMI
09-01-2008, 08:49 PM
The dealer has granted us permission to return the machine. Will let y'all know how all this ends up. Be well, and thanks again, all.

Q1

I'm really glad to hear that. Don't forget to come back to this thread and let us know how it worked out. :)

Boris Goreta
09-02-2008, 01:15 AM
Check this link out:

http://www.tweakguides.com/VA_1.html

Quiet1onTheSet
09-02-2008, 08:55 AM
Yep it's a real issue, you can see i tried tracking the culprit as much as possible..Initially I had thought the ICH9 Intel AHCI HDD controller may of been at fault, but I reloaded a 2nd machine AMD X2 with Nforce4, and it developed the same issue and now does the same thing as well...

So i have two x64 Vista machines that never stop flashing a blue and yellow lights respectively. I have a laptop that does not exhibit the issues, however it's running Vista Home Premium 32. ..

Same here. Despite the maniacal attack on my disk drives with Vista 64 Ultimate, our HP dv9700 notebook-based Vista 32-bit Home Premium behaves itself like a well-disciplined child in a supermarket check-out isle.

Q1
:hey:

Quiet1onTheSet
09-02-2008, 09:07 AM
Quiet1...
Perhaps you would like to try Windows Mojave instead. I hear its MUCH better than Vista. Microsoft is still testing it. :devil:

If you want, I have a full copy of XP64 that I am not using (I got a full version of Vista). I am not sure about the transfer, but its a legit copy of XP upgraded to X64 that isn't installed on any system right now...

Hey, there, Verlon. Are you aware I sent you a private message days ago, in response to the above? Sure would like to hear from you -- or anyone, on the opportunity for snatching up XP Pro 64 -- legitimately, of course.

Q1
:hey:

Quiet1onTheSet
09-02-2008, 09:09 AM
Check this link out:

http://www.tweakguides.com/VA_1.htmlHmmm.Checking it out now. Nice of you to post this one, bg' --

Checking it out now.

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
09-02-2008, 09:48 AM
It is available at around the equivalent of 190 USD around here and software is usually more expensive than in the US of A.Cool. Thanks, Nev'

Q1

mattclary
09-02-2008, 09:54 AM
As much distaste as I have for Vista, I can't say I have seen it thrash my hard drive, but, I have several Ghost images I use, all based from one original install, running on a Optiplex GX270, so no fancy hardware, running IDE rather than SATA... I suspect it's a driver related issue.

mattclary
09-02-2008, 09:56 AM
I just checked my local PC pusher and they are stocking XP 64-bit UK english (with SP2) again. So it is definitely possibly to buy an OEM at retail currently.

It was unavailable for while, but now it is in stock again. I tried getting hold of it sometime before summer 2007 and they could not get it for me. Today I am happy that I went Vista instead. XP no longer holds any interest for me.

For those who like XP, it is still possible to get a 64-bit disc + license. It is available at around the equivalent of 190 USD around here and software is usually more expensive than in the US of A.


If you are in the states, you can get it for $140 from Newegg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116378

If you just run a system with standard parts and maybe a printer, drivers for XP64 are pretty easy to come by. Asus and Intel both provide x64 drivers for their motherboards, nVidia certainly does for their cards, imagine ATI does too... Standard USB devices will be supported. The only downside MIGHT be drawing tablets, but I know I have an older tablet that works great on XP64...

SBowie
09-02-2008, 10:12 AM
Next gripe of the day:Change view of a folder, apply to all folders. Guess what?One thing I use constantly in XP that I have not found in Vista: holding Ctrl while double-clicking a folder (or clicking the "Up" button in the file window header) opens a second File Explorer, instead of changing the first one to the new location (yes, I know you can change this preference globally).

I really miss this ability. Has anyone figured this out?

dwburman
09-02-2008, 10:32 AM
The 1-second HDD access interval reminds me of the way the floppy drives would click on the Amiga.

ahh.. those were the days. :)

SBowie
09-02-2008, 10:39 AM
Hey, maybe that's what it is - the AmiFlicker ... (a nostalgia feature for lonely Amigans).

mattclary
09-02-2008, 10:47 AM
Nice brown bag :hey: At least my Vista Ultimate x64 OEM came in a semi-transparent DVD case with a nice white cardboard sleeve :D

I guess both are better than the awful thin plastic thingy my old XP x86 OEM came in.

Do I really care about OS wrapping? No! But I could not skip out on poking fun at the brown bag.

Here's your XP sir, all wrapped in a brown bag so the Linux junkies around the corner won't ridicule you when you pass by.

Thus the real root of Vista love: "Shiny!" :ohmy:

And FYI, when you open that brown envelope, you should see a nice pretty CD package. I order XP Home OEM all the time, and that is the envelope you get with a prettier package inside.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=32-116-056-08.jpg%2c32-116-056-07.jpg%2c32-116-056-09.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16832116056&Depa=6&Description=Microsoft%20Windows%20XP%20Home%20With %20SP2B%20for%20System%20Builders%201%20Pack

I know you are joking, by the way. ;)

DiscreetFX
09-02-2008, 02:51 PM
@IMI

Well our point of view is we have no business need to run Vista so we don't use it. The extra bloat is not needed in our pipeline, XP works just fine for the applications and hardware we need to run. Also, we don't feel like being a MS unpaid beta tester, paying in fact for something that's not even finished. If that changes for some reason we can revisit it later but I kind of doubt it.

IMI
09-02-2008, 09:20 PM
@IMI

Well our point of view is we have no business need to run Vista so we don't use it. The extra bloat is not needed in our pipeline, XP works just fine for the applications and hardware we need to run. Also, we don't feel like being a MS unpaid beta tester, paying in fact for something that's not even finished. If that changes for some reason we can revisit it later but I kind of doubt it.

Well, that's fine if that's what you want to do. I have no vested interest in what you do or don't do and how you do it. As I mentioned earlier, I have a cheap, OEM Gateway PC in my office just for my business, finances, family stuff, and so on. It came with XP Home on it, along with a whole bunch of crapware gateway thought I'd like, but I wiped that clean and installed XP Pro x86 on it. Much as I like Vista, there's no way I'd put it on that machine.

I was merely pointing out that the reality is, XP will see the day when it's no longer supported by device manufacturers and even Microsoft. It will be LegacyWare, and no longer of any interest to developers of hardware and software. it won't be too long before MS officially abandons XP, and the rest will follow soon enough.

People will one day find that butt-kickin' new Quadro doesn't come with XP drivers... or any number of other possibilities.

DiscreetFX
09-02-2008, 10:51 PM
@IMI

Of course, things always change and never stay the same. Maybe we will get Windows 7 if it's decent.

:)

Quiet1onTheSet
09-03-2008, 04:12 PM
Y...Get a 4GB USB flash drive for ReadyBoost - that's the best thing I did for my system, the system has been fast and the disk dead quiet since.

Be sure the drive is ReadyBoost compatible though - only a few are (need high enough throughput). I'm using SanDisk Cruzer, works great.

I'm about to install the following moderately-priced upgrades now...

This week at Best Buy PNY 8GB High-Speed USB flash RAM "Enhanced for Windows Readyboost" (sic) for $34.99USD

This week at Circuit City Kingston 4GB package of DDR2 667MHz (Two 2GB DIMMS for Desktops) at $99.99USD

No way in the world I should have to purchase either of these, but 64-bit Vista is retarded, I guess. Needs ooddles of Memory.

Oh, well...Gotta' feed the hungry.

By the way, for the most part, the 32-bit Vista machines on the shelves seemed fine, while the 64-bit Vista-laced machines had the ol' harddisk convulsion thing goin' on. Especially that beefy lookin', copper-colored Dell XPS gaming jaunt...

Goodness, gracious!

Q1
:thumbsdow:

avkills
09-03-2008, 04:18 PM
I am bummed since our IT department only has 32bit Vista Licenses, so I guess I will just go with that unless someone gives me a really good reason to use 64bit XP; I really do not see myself using Windows a whole lot.

-mark

Quiet1onTheSet
09-03-2008, 04:24 PM
Yeah, Vista goes wild in the beginning as it apparently tunes the system. It also has a field time if you're short on main memory (e.g., just 2GB). Get a 4GB USB flash drive for ReadyBoost - that's the best thing I did for my system..

http://www.istartedsomething.com/20070709/vista-sp1-readyboost-bug/

Got to beat the dead horse, ya' know.

Q1
:hammer:
:cat:

Where'da 'moticon for 'da horse, Yo?

Quiet1onTheSet
09-03-2008, 04:47 PM
I am bummed since our IT department only has 32bit Vista Licenses, so I guess I will just go with that unless someone gives me a really good reason to use 64bit XP; I really do not see myself using Windows a whole lot.

-markHey, avkills -- rejoice, and be exceeding glad you don't have 64-bit Vista in da' house, Yo!

Our buddy Sekhar's recommendation to increase the RAM and the drive will silence down might be useful for 32-bit Vista systems with less than 4GB of RAM, but that trick apparently doesn't work universally (at least not for 64-bit Vista).

Now we're at 8GB in the box, and Ah tell'ya the drive is still behavin' like a spoiled brat fitt'n ta' be spanked. :cursin:

Q1
:compbeati

avkills
09-03-2008, 04:53 PM
Sucks to hear that. I just received my 8-core MacPro beast today; rounding out our new HD edit system (based around an AJA IoHD). Right now I am installing stuff and updating and updating some more.....maybe someday I will get to click *render* to see this beast unleashed. :D

-mark

Sekhar
09-03-2008, 05:39 PM
Now we're at 8GB in the box, and Ah tell'ya the drive is still behavin' like a spoiled brat fitt'n ta' be spanked. :cursin:

That sucks. Could you post screenshots of your Resource Manager disk pages, one sorted for reads and the other for writes? ReadyBoost has to work if the activity is from paging. Like I said, the solution depends on where the activity is coming from. If say it's because of search indexing or defragmentation, even 16GB are not going to help.

BTW, my system is pretty similar to yours - Ultimate 64, 4GB main and 4GB ReadyBoost.

Quiet1onTheSet
09-03-2008, 06:42 PM
That sucks.
Oh, yeah. Real hard.

Could you post screenshots of your Resource Manager disk pages, one sorted for reads and the other for writes? ReadyBoost has to work if the activity is from paging. Like I said, the solution depends on where the activity is coming from. If say it's because of search indexing or defragmentation, even 16GB are not going to help.

BTW, my system is pretty similar to yours - Ultimate 64, 4GB main and 4GB ReadyBoost.Nah. That's 8GB Main memory now -- and 0GB ReadyBoost, 'cause I haven't learned how to do that just yet.
Tomorrow, if I don't ship this machine back to from whence it came, I plan to be spending time searching on the Web for how Readyboost is set up -- even though I think it's stupid to *have* to resort to doing so.


...I.e., my situation is exactly like yours, and a 4GB ReadyBoost fixed it. Check out Resource Monitor for read and write activities, and you'll know where the problem is.I'm aware of that, only I thought that some were suggesting that throwing more RAM at it solved the matter for them.

To be frank, Sekhar, I despise the idea that one needs to set up their system so that a needed-to-be-purchased 4GB RAM drive on the USB bus can be thrashed instead.

Why have the thrashing at all in a 21st century OS, for goodness' sake? If I ever needed an excuse to look at the possibility of adding an overpriced Mac workstation here, by golly, I think I've found one. You know, the more I think about all this, I'm becoming a Mac fanboy without even owning one!

Oooh. Wow. Hmmm. [Catharsis moment] I actually feel better, having said that.

Q1
:)

Quiet1onTheSet
09-03-2008, 06:48 PM
I just received my 8-core MacPro beast today;...Right now I am installing stuff and updating and updating some more.....maybe someday I will get to click *render* to see this beast unleashed. :D

-mark
You *go* av!

Q1

IMI
09-03-2008, 08:51 PM
Q1,

I can't remember... did you disable indexing on your drives?
Here, check this out:
http://4sysops.com/archives/how-to-disable-vista%E2%80%99s-desktop-search-indexing-windows-search/

In Explorer, you can right click on a drive letter and select properties, and then uncheck the box which says "index this drive for faster searching", and it will *supposedly* stop at least that process, which runs in the background and, I guess, records locations of files, for when you search.
You can also go to Control Panel> System and Maintenance> Indexing Options, and turn it off there, or, rather remove drives from the list of search candidates. It seems that turning it off in the disks Properties panel isn't quite enough, and the OS disk stays in the Indexing Options list.
However, it seems also that maybe that isn't even enough, because Search Indexer.exe will still remain on "Automatic" in the Services. The link I posted explains how to shut that off.

Now, of course, this will disable searching your PC for files you might have lost track of and might want to find. I suppose could also interfere with any synchronization of files you might have going on, but that's just a guess.
Personally, I couldn't care less, and don't need Windows to index my drives - I know where all my stuff is, and I've been using the same filing conventions for years. I mean, if I want to find HDRI texture "ReallyCoolSky_001.tga" on my drive, I know it's going to be in my LW Content folder under Images\HDRI, as well as in my modo Images\HDRI folder. That seems obvious, but after years of this, you develop your own way of filing. Text files always go one place, word documents another, and so on, and everything gets put into a folder with a descriptive name.
So, Windows Search is pointless, far as I'm concerned, and disabling it can lead to a small amount of better performance, although I'm not sure how much that matters. It does, though cut back on that disk thrashing, and if you haven't already, you ought to try it.

Quiet1onTheSet
09-03-2008, 09:36 PM
Q1,

I can't remember... did you disable indexing on your drives?Like *any* well-meaning and marginally knowledgeable video editor: Yesss-sir!In fact, disabled it on the system drive, 'though that ought not to have been necessary, if 64 Vista Ultimate were a "normally" functioning.

I'll read your link tomorrow, guy. Winding down now, and thanks, IMI, and everyone else here.

Q1
What?? An 8 - Core Mac for Prez?
8~

Quiet1onTheSet
09-04-2008, 06:26 PM
...it seems also that maybe that isn't even enough, because Search Indexer.exe will still remain on "Automatic" in the Services. The link I posted explains how to shut that off.

Now, of course, this will disable searching your PC for files you might have lost track of and might want to find.
Yeah, like you, I don't need Windows to babysit where I store files either -- and as a habit, I don't store files on the system drive at all.

UPDATE: Was on the phone since 4PM with Microsoft Tech Support today. They seemed utterly unhelpful -- refusing even to go into Resource Manager, to see just what "images" seemed most responsible for constant disk writes.

Several promptings on my part, to the technician, asking why he isn't interested in exploring that revealing module resulted in absolute disinterest on his part (as well as with the tech that dealt with me before him).

Instead, he wanted me to uninstall antivirus (even though I had it disabled), and then contact the hard disk manufacturer for updates to firmware (even though this problem occurs with other hard drives I've tried with the system, and it occurs on 64-bit Vista machines I find on the shelves in the store.

I am officially shopping for a Mac; in fact, I'm posting this from a shiny new Mac at the store.

Q1

IMI
09-04-2008, 08:51 PM
Cool. Good to hear it. I mean, not the part about MS tech support seeming unconcerned, but the part about you being happy about going Mac.
Well, although it's not IBM-based, it IS still a personal computer.
"Crash Different". :D

Meanwhile, my Vista boxes are still happily chugging along, not doing the HDD thrash thing...

Well, I'm glad you realized you had a hardware problem, in the end and it wasn't Vista. Else, no reason to proudly proclaim Going Mac. :D

Again, good luck! I hope you get the best out of LW 9.5.... errr,, I mean 9.3, and all your DX 10 games run smoothly and... no, scratch that too. ;)

Ah, well here's to that wonderfully non-intrusive OS that is X! :beerchug:

Leopard? Panther, Puma, Tomcat? I'm not sure which update you paid for, sorry. :)

danielkaiser
09-04-2008, 09:16 PM
I's all in how you ask the question.

Frankly I don't take crap from tech support, the first person you talk to is probably reading a script and it's easy to figure out in the first 5-10 min. if they know what their talking about (sometimes you get lucky) at this point I'll ask to talk to a level 2 tech. or if the tech. is being an *** then I ask for a supervisor, remember your talking to customer service, some times you have to tell them what to do.

Quiet1onTheSet
09-04-2008, 09:48 PM
Well, I'm glad you realized you had a hardware problem, in the end and it wasn't Vista. Wow, IMI. Despite your galant efforts toward helpfulness in this thread, you've really served up a distorted spin on the issue, with that statement.

Fact of the matter is, Microsoft's very own tech forum's user-base is confounded by failure on Microsoft's part, to give people with this problem specific guidance to mitigate against it.

The drive-thrashing pandemic seems particularly acute in many 64-bit Vista systems until the user tweaks the heck out of them, and in others, no amount of tweaking seems to expunge the problem.

What it is that I have come to realize, is that there is not a hardware problem so much as Microsoft's anxiety in wanting to replace a working OS with one with greater glitz on the outside, but with horrific and perplexing abnormalities within.

And whilst giving the end-user the perception of greater power through Readyboost trickery, they think to convince us that our brand spanking new PC hardware isn't advanced enough for the crock they've served up as a 21st century OS.

While shocked by Microsoft's blatant refusal to even inquire about the goings-on with the Disk module within this 64-bit Vista Ultimate Task Manager's Resource Monitor, it is of no surprise to me, that the most prevalent of images appearing in the disk-thrashing lineup observable therein, are Vista System executables.

In the past 24 hours, I've set out to seal the matter of whether or not all this is 64-bit Vista OS's fault - or merely munged hardware shenanigans. In so doing, I've visited several PC/Mac-selling outlets. When walking the isles, I can spot from a good distance, the 64-bit Vista systems, by virtue of the vigilance of the ol' blinking blue bulb on the front of the case, regardless of hardware configuration.

How grateful I am that NewTek chose Windows XP Pro for the TriCaster series of product (for now).

There'll be Windows based systems here (for now), but I think the handwriting's on the wall for how much more Microsoft will continue to milk the heck out of us gullible souls.

Q1

dweinkauf
09-05-2008, 12:27 AM
A year ago last May, I had a NewTek dealer upgrade my Toaster with a new motherboard, memory, video card, and Sata raid. Since I have older equipment (scanner, SCSI raid, burner) that won't work with Vista, and the dealer prefers to install XP rather than Vista on new systems, the dealer installed a dual boot XP Pro and XP-64 OS on my old, but very workable workstation. All I did when getting it home was attach my two monitors, the SX-84, the network, speakers, mouse, and keyboard, turned it on, rearranged the desktop icons and went to work. Since that day, I have replaced the two monitors with a 24" monitor, added a third printer, and updated some of the software (SP3, Mirage Pro+, TV Paint, VT5, Lightwave 9.5, etc.). All installations went flawlessly/automatically and I haven't had one glitch or interruption of my work since I got the workstation back from the dealer. I am someone who cannot deal or spend time with system work. I am glad to have XP Pro and XP-64 because on my system they don't present the problems described in this and other forums. I simply use old but great along with new equipment and get a hell of a lot of work done.

csandy
09-05-2008, 10:58 AM
This is such a fascinating thread!

Personally, I rather be an editor than a system tech. So I want an OS that WORKS and is TRANSPARENT to my work flow. If you can't say that about your OS - then it sucks.

Sometimes I imagine my car was run by one of the bloated OSes we like to often complain about. On top of the frustrations of getting to the office every day, I can't imagine adding taking the time to join a gripe session on why my car's OS keeps crashing, or using too much fuel, or makes the hazard lights keep blinking. I just want to turn the key and have the machine start and let me drive it to where I want it to go.

Sure, the Video Toaster is more like a kit car - but many editors buy turnkey systems that are still plagued by a sub-standard* operating system backed by sub-standard* tech support.

Just my $0.02

* the standard being - it doesn't suck.

dweinkauf
09-05-2008, 12:00 PM
originally posted by Neverko
Good to hear. I get a hell of a lot of work done on my Vista x64 based system which is completely rock solid. Since we're telling success stories I thought I'd add mine... again.

I am glad to hear this and want to hear more success stories. I just feel so sorry for everyone in this thread and others having so many problems with properly configuring Vista and avoiding the disk trashing. I agree with CSandy that I want a system that I don't have to configure or deal with OS issues and where you turn the key and it runs. I have and always have had such a system with XP Pro and XP 64.

Lightwolf
09-05-2008, 12:25 PM
Hm, I don't see the issue here. Vista works and it works well (Yep, x64 too).

So, the drive LED comes up every now and then. It would be a load of things and the question is if it really affects anything negatively or not.

If you don't want to be nor aren't an OS specialist then the only thing you need to worry about is whether you can work with your applications as expected.
Whatever the OS does is (in that case) none of your concern as long as it works.

Cheers,
Mike

Quiet1onTheSet
09-05-2008, 01:57 PM
So, the drive LED comes up every now and then. Hopefully, you don't mean every second of the 24-hour day.


It would be a load of things and the question is if it really affects anything negatively or not. Negatively - like the life of one's hard disk? I'd go for a "Yes" vote.


If you don't want to be nor aren't an OS specialist then the only thing you need to worry about is whether you can work with your applications as expected.
Bingo! That's just it: We ought to work with our applications without the hard disk thrashing. That's the expectation.

Whatever the OS does is (in that case) none of your concern as long as it works.

OK, irrespective of whether or not people are aspiring to be automotive repair specialists -- if with their brand spankin' new cars, utilizing the same brand of motor, the engine pings incessantly, that's none of the owners' concern so long as they make it to work?

Well Mikey, that could be cause for a summons to court after a multitude of calls to the FTC!

Q1
:phone_cal

Quiet1onTheSet
09-05-2008, 02:12 PM
That sucks. ..Like I said, the solution depends on where the activity is coming from...Most of the activity that's observable within Resource Monitor are Writes to the drive, rather than reads.

Interestingly, a tweak in services.msc (via the RUN Command Prompt) revealed something: disabling Distributed Link Tracking Client, to a significant degree, quiets down the constant barrage of writes to the hard disk although the once-a-second drive LED-flashing springs eternal, still.

I suspect it's not a good idea to disable that.

Q1
8~

Lightwolf
09-05-2008, 02:49 PM
Negatively - like the life of one's hard disk? I'd go for a "Yes" vote.

How do you know? How much do you know about the workings and mechanics of modern hard drives?
They have caches. The most stressful task is spinning up and down, power cycles, so there is nothing inherently wrong with it running.

So, how does the hard disk activity affect your workflow then?

Cheers,
Mike

Quiet1onTheSet
09-05-2008, 02:56 PM
B]Distributed Link Tracking Client[/B]...I suspect it's not a good idea to disable that... but I have for now, but only temporarily, and as an experiment only.

I've also disabled Superfetch, and intend to leave that off, per the suggestion given early in this thread.

Q1
8~

Quiet1onTheSet
09-05-2008, 03:04 PM
How much do you know about the workings and mechanics of modern hard drives?
They have caches. The most stressful task is spinning up and down, power cycles, so there is nothing inherently wrong with it running.


Well, enough.... to know that continual "caching" activity of the system drive on an entirely new machine for a 30 day period, despite the absence of any installed applications (beyond what shipped with the OS) isn't all that critical -- especially if said machine is just sitting there on the desk, untouched for days on end, without Windows being utilized to perform any work by its user, except to display what's going on in the DISK resource manager...

Q1
:D

Lightwolf
09-05-2008, 04:53 PM
...without Windows being utilized to perform any work by its user...
That doesn't mean that the OS itself has nothing to do. And apparently it does.

You're using Ultimate, right? Any specific reason for that? Which functionality in Ultimate are you using the the other editions aren't offering?

Cheers,
Mike

danielkaiser
09-05-2008, 05:18 PM
Well, enough.... to know that continual "caching" activity of the system drive on an entirely new machine for a 30 day period, despite the absence of any installed applications (beyond what shipped with the OS) isn't all that critical -- especially if said machine is just sitting there on the desk, untouched for days on end, without Windows being utilized to perform any work by its user, except to display what's going on in the DISK resource manager...

Q1
:D

You haven't installed any aps, you haven't put this thing through some real usage. Did you run a stress test, SiSoftware Sandra is a free download and at the very least, it would tell you if the problem is causing any performance issues. Vista adapts it self to the user's habit's and if you don't use it.....well.

This thread it starting to smell funny.

Quiet1onTheSet
09-05-2008, 06:13 PM
That doesn't mean that the OS itself has nothing to do. And apparently it does.

You're using Ultimate, right? Any specific reason for that? Eh, because that's the OS that came with the machine.


Q1
Hmmm. A failed attempt at inducing an artificially-inseminated guilt trip.
:screwy:

Quiet1onTheSet
09-05-2008, 06:32 PM
You haven't installed any aps, you haven't put this thing through some real usage. Vista adapts it self to the user's habit's and if you don't use it.....well.

Well... let's not leave out from the discussion the fact that what you're indicating is only true if certain services are enabled, and if anything smells funny, it's the machinations of Microsoft under the hood.

There are apps installed, that shipped with the OS. I've put it through some real usage: Examining the OS' effect on Hard Disk activity, while disabling/enabling some services, then copying and pasting the display of Resource Manager into a doc. file.

Used to have VT installed (that was during the first couple of days, but removed it, and the OS, due to the unrelenting, mysterious disk activity, then reformatted the drive and reinstalled Windows.

Actually, the OS smells funny, since as for its ability to adapt to the user's habits -- then, if the user does few tasks with the system, then the OS ought to behave in kind.

Q1

avkills
09-05-2008, 06:53 PM
Well I installed Vista32 on the 8 core beast tonight and it runs like a champ. VMware made the install even easier than doing it on a regular Wintel. Fusion seems to be much better than Parallels IMO on just about everything. Hopefully the 50GB virtual drive will be enough.

The only downer is that VMware will only use 2 cores max for a virtual machine. I don't plan on doing boot camp for dual booting either, since it is a pain in the *** on my laptop. I will probably re-do my laptop soon.

-mark

danielkaiser
09-05-2008, 08:56 PM
Well... let's not leave out from the discussion the fact that what you're indicating is only true if certain services are enabled, and if anything smells funny, it's the machinations of Microsoft under the hood.

There are apps installed, that shipped with the OS. I've put it through some real usage: Examining the OS' effect on Hard Disk activity, while disabling/enabling some services, then copying and pasting the display of Resource Manager into a doc. file.

Used to have VT installed (that was during the first couple of days, but removed it, and the OS, due to the unrelenting, mysterious disk activity, then reformatted the drive and reinstalled Windows.

Actually, the OS smells funny, since as for its ability to adapt to the user's habits -- then, if the user does few tasks with the system, then the OS ought to behave in kind.

Q1

Took my machine about two weeks to start to settle down, and most of the tweaks that I applied were concerning boot time issues, it just wasn't fast enough for me, it's now down to about 10 seconds from log on to usable desktop.

It looks like you have some kind of hardware issue, in that case the manufacture ether needs to fix it, replace it or allow you to return it for a full refund, this,,, "it must be some kind of MS thing just doesn't float".

Or it's just a case of operator error!!!

IMI
09-06-2008, 12:19 AM
Wow, IMI. Despite your galant efforts toward helpfulness in this thread, you've really served up a distorted spin on the issue, with that statement.

Q1

Well actually I was just messing with you, hence the grin icon --> :D
I figured you'd realize that, but sorry, anyway.
Besides, if you're gonna be a Mac guy, you need to get used to that. ;)

Lightwolf
09-06-2008, 04:20 AM
Eh, because that's the OS that came with the machine.
Ah, so it's a turn-key machine. Sorry that wasn't clear.
I suppose in that case you might want to consider contacting whoever sold it to you.


Hmmm. A failed attempt at inducing an artificially-inseminated guilt trip.
:screwy:
Not really, just trying to find out what you expect - and why you picked that specific system.

Cheers,
Mike

Quiet1onTheSet
09-06-2008, 01:26 PM
Well I installed Vista32 on the 8 core beast tonight and it runs like a champ. ...The only downer is that VMware will only use 2 cores max for a virtual machine. I don't plan on doing boot camp for dual booting either, since it is a pain in the *** on my laptop.

-markYeah, Markie. I'm lovin' Vista 32 Home Premium, frankly. Nice on the drives and all.

Hmmm. that new system you just installed Vista32 on -- Sounds like a Mac system. 'That a desktop? What're the specs, guy?
Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
09-06-2008, 01:29 PM
Took my machine about two weeks to start to settle down, and most of the tweaks that I applied were concerning boot time issues, it just wasn't fast enough for me, it's now down to about 10 seconds from log on to usable desktop. That's utterly fantastic Dan.

"...it must be some kind of MS thing just doesn't float".[/quote] Oh, sure it does. Why is it that the desktops in various stores, with 64 bit Vista on them, have the incessant hard-drive flashing, after weeks and weeks have gone by?

Perhaps some day we'll hear of a fix from the Redmond guys. for now, those sheepish folk want to run a scan on my computer system remotely, while refusing to have me open the Resource Monitor to report back to them what's goin' on.

Hmmmp! I vote "Microsoft Issue".

Q1

DiscreetFX
09-06-2008, 01:38 PM
@Quiet1onTheSet

Did Gates shaking his butt make you change your mind about Vista?


http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=fSQMg3gc1r4&feature=related

Quiet1onTheSet
09-06-2008, 01:39 PM
Not really, just trying to find out what you expect - and why you picked that specific system.

Fair enough. Forgive me. I recant on the "guilt trip" thing.

This system from Microcenter http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0282814
wasn't a bad buy for a middle-of-the-road $999.00 system in a really decent case and all. (It was an open box deal at about $950 when I snatched it up: Apparently, a previous owner returned it (with the Microsoft Windows XP "downgrade from Vista 64 Ultimate" activated on the machine).

I wiped out the drives (two 500 GB Hitachi 72,000 RPM SATA 2 drives striped as RAID 0), created dynamic disks with them and Windows RAID-0 striped them instead, for video storage.

Then, installed two SATA 16MB/250GB WD Caviar 2500 drives, installing 64 Ultimate on one of those.

I'll check the Western Digital site for the possibility of there being some Vista 64 firmware patches, or some other such thing, and get back to you if that's the case.

Q1

DiscreetFX
09-06-2008, 06:01 PM
Crap hardware can cause lots of problems.

avkills
09-06-2008, 06:13 PM
Yeah, Markie. I'm lovin' Vista 32 Home Premium, frankly. Nice on the drives and all.

Hmmm. that new system you just installed Vista32 on -- Sounds like a Mac system. 'That a desktop? What're the specs, guy?
Q1

I thought it was clear in my earlier posts that I was a Mac guy; basically mostly due to the fact that editing is my main chore, not 3D, and Final Cut Pro + AJA hardware is basically the core I have chosen.

Anyhoo, my new edit system is a 8 core Mac Pro @ 3.2Ghz with 8GB RAM and 2 500GB internal ATA drives, and a GeForce 8800 w/512MB vram. I also have a 30" Cinema display and a 4 drive eSATA RAID. It is a very nice system and makes a lot less noise than I imagined it would. It renders around 10x faster than the Dual 2 G5 system running LW. Nice!

Probably will not do renders on Vista since it is limited to 2 cores via VMware and I just do not want to do a boot camp setup. Besides, even with 2 cores @ 3.2Ghz that is faster than most run of the mill Wintel setups anyway; for stuff like powerpoint, etc etc.

-mark

Quiet1onTheSet
09-07-2008, 09:53 AM
Crap hardware can cause lots of problems.:agree:

Fortunately, the PowerSpec E361 is a particularly decent quality machine with a proven mobo and chipset, and a really fantastic case, and more. Let's wait and see if there is a firmware patch for the WD drives I installed.

Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
09-07-2008, 11:02 AM
What motherboard and chipset is inside that machine?
Intel DP35DP with Intel P35 Express chipset http://www.intel.com/products/motherboard/DP35DP/configs.htm

On the other hand, the specifications sheet for the machine, at the OEM website is old and is out-of-date; http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0282814

There've been hardware improvements since, including two sticks of 2GB RAM' a 20x optical drive, plus a 550-Watt PSU (instead of four 1GB sticks of RAM, 10x optical drive and 450-Watt PSU for earlier builds).

Again, not bad for a middle-of-the-road system.

Q1

IMI
09-07-2008, 11:49 AM
I'm not a fan of nVidia chipsets either, while I'm at it. I've had to fix too many issues for too many people running those. And before I'm flayed alive by the nVidia chipset enthusiasts, I know that they CAN work well, it's just that they're not exactly Intel chipsets when it comes to drivers and stability.

Yeah, I hear ya. My AMD machine has the 590 chipset (man, only a year old and sooooo outdated!), but my new box has the Asus P5Q Pro with the Intel P45 chipset.
Now, I don't have any issue with the AMD box - it's rock solid, but back when I first set it up, it took alot of tweaking to get it good. In fact, neverko, you may remember about a year ago I was doing the Vista whining thing... the difference is, I listened to you....

But this Intel board... no troubles at all, really. Well, unless you want to count the fact they sent me a malfunctioning Rampage and one of my new HDD's died after only two days... but that's not this board - the P5Q has given me zero troubles and installing Ultimate x64 on it was a breeze.
I've even done a little OC'ing with it, getting my Intel quad core 2.83 up to 3.21 ghz and it's stable, far as I can tell. Works with apps, haven't tried it with any games yet.

IMI
09-07-2008, 11:56 AM
Here's that board at NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121314&Tpk=Intel%20DP35DP), with reviews.

4 out of five stars. Claims to be Vista Certified. I dunno - I sure wouldn't buy it - 800 mhz RAM, the PCI Express x16 aren't 2.0

That's a budget board? 100 bucks at NewEgg, seems kind of steep -0 the P5Q was only 140 or something.

IMI
09-07-2008, 12:01 PM
:agree:

Fortunately, the PowerSpec E361 is a particularly decent quality machine with a proven mobo and chipset, and a really fantastic case, and more. Let's wait and see if there is a firmware patch for the WD drives I installed.

Q1

I have those same drives - the 250 GB WD Caviar. Remember, I told you one of them died after only two days, the other seems - I say, *seems* to be having some issues. I was copying a 99 MB file to it and the last little bit of it took maybe 5 minutes, while the countdown showed 5 seconds left that whole time.
I don't know - I'm not trusting it, not putting anything important on it, and just waiting for it to die now. IMHO, those drives are crap - if 2 out of 2 are bad, that's crap.

IMI
09-07-2008, 02:21 PM
How can I forget my favored Vista apprentice :) I have molded and warped you into a being of Dark Vista Energy. Just waiting to be set free at my command.

One day your phone will ring and the Windows Vista logon sound will chime softly from the speaker. You will be utterly paralyzed at that moment. Then I will proceed to recite my secret Windows Vista Activation Code of Doom. Once you are activated and verified by my phone server gnomes in India you will be fully under my supreme control and ready to do my Dark Vista bidding.

I think Steve Jobs will be first to face deletion...

:phone_cal

Heh. OK, but you'll have to explain it to my wife. ;)

I RMA'd my Asus Rampage Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131284) a couple days ago... am very much looking forward to getting the new one.
It figures I'd get a bad board. I'd really love to know how that happens..
But it overall got some great reviews.

DiscreetFX
09-07-2008, 02:35 PM
neverko we will not be joining your vast army of Vista jedi knights, we will wait for Windows 7.

:beta:

IMI
09-07-2008, 02:44 PM
neverko we will not be joining your vast army of Vista jedi knights, we will wait for Windows 7.

:beta:

Don't you think Windows 7 will be a continuation of Vista?
I mean, I don't know, and I haven't really read much about it yet, but it seems to be a logical assumption.

IMI
09-07-2008, 04:50 PM
I was curious, so....
Windows 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7)

Looks cool, really, and I'm sure it will be.

The only real problem, as *I* see it, is they're still going in that OS-as-Nanny direction. Vista is largely that, and it lloks Like Windows 7 will be even moreso.

I really really really wish they would release "barebone" OS's, or maybe even graphic workstation versions. Vista, great as it is, still is cluttered up with a bunch of crap I have no interest in, not to mention all that background crap which needs to be turned off.
I can understand why they do it - keep non-PC-savvy people, who are the greater portion of the market, from screwing up their machines and inadvertently passing viruses, worms and trojans all over creation.
But still, if you have a Windows machine attached only to several other PC's all on a network and not online, or through a good hardware firewall, and all you're mostly doing with it is making CG, you don't need all that stuff like Defender, UAC and so on.

I'm honestly surprised they don't make such an OS. With CG and more and more windows boxes being used as graphic workstations, I'd think there'd be enough interest in it to justify it, and it would cost them alot less time and money, without the need for continually updating Defender, and patching holes.
"Windows Barebones" would be virtually maintenance free, once assembled and released, and it's just a matter of stripping out the crap from the existing OS.

DiscreetFX
09-07-2008, 08:43 PM
@IMI

They should give you those options when you install it. For example; power user, n00b, web server, bare bones config, video editing config, gamer config, etc.

IMI
09-07-2008, 11:32 PM
@ billpana

That would be a cool idea too, so you could customize your Windows... uh, experience...

But a "n00b" setting wouldn't be necessary. All it would have to say is "Install Windows". ;)

avkills
09-08-2008, 12:17 AM
@IMI

They should give you those options when you install it. For example; power user, n00b, web server, bare bones config, video editing config, gamer config, etc.

Not to flame up, but that is one of the reasons I dislike (notice I didn't say hate... ;) ) Windows. The OS should just do what it is meant to do; serve as a overall manger of the system; when the OS gets in the way of critical apps being used by the user, it leaves a real sour experience. The user should not have to be an expert in the IT field just to get simple things to work.

That being said, Vista really does not bother me all that much; it is just another iteration of Windows, for better or worse.

But I will agree that *overly cheap* hardware is going to give you a lot more problems. It seems overly naive to not use proven Intel chipsets with Intel CPUs for mission critical machines.

-mark

avkills
09-08-2008, 12:19 AM
I think Steve Jobs will be first to face deletion...

Did Steve kill your cat or something? Your obsession with wanting Apple to fail is fairly striking...

What did Apple do to you exactly that has your panties in a bunch.

-mark

avkills
09-08-2008, 01:30 AM
I use OSX every day at work and it is a buggy pile of ****.

This I was unaware of... (your usage of it every day that is)

To each his own...

-mark

IMI
09-08-2008, 01:32 AM
Seems like it's about time to post this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCOlf_7BT-I
:D

avkills
09-08-2008, 01:40 AM
Seems like it's about time to post this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCOlf_7BT-I
:D

Nice one.

:neener:

-mark

IMI
09-08-2008, 01:55 AM
Hey, it's funny. True or not, it's pretty good. :)

Quiet1onTheSet
09-09-2008, 08:13 AM
Here's that board at NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121314&Tpk=Intel%20DP35DP), with reviews.

4 out of five stars. Claims to be Vista Certified. I dunno - I sure wouldn't buy it - 800 mhz RAM, the PCI Express x16 aren't 2.0

That's a budget board? 100 bucks at NewEgg, seems kind of steep -0 the P5Q was only 140 or something.
While I can't speak for the board with the "M" designation appended to the model number (DP35DP), the board I have supports up to 800/1066/1366 RAM. I've got 1066 here, for a middle-of-the-road performer.

Thanks IMI and Neverko for your contributions to this thread, and "no", I haven't gone back to working with the system, as I've got some other pressing issues to attend to at the moment.

Just popped in to say "thanks" to you all.

Q1
:thumbsup:

Quiet1onTheSet
09-09-2008, 08:26 AM
Edit:

The PowerSpec E361 appears to be a particularly decent quality middle-of-the-road machine with a proven albeit now aged mobo with a respectable chipset, decent amount of RAM, upgradeable to 1066 RAM (I erred in suggesting earlier, that it can be upgraded to 1366 RAM) and a really fantastic case, and more. Let's wait and see if there is a firmware patch for the WD drives I installed. Again, thanks all.

Q1

IMI
09-09-2008, 01:07 PM
I thought you were going to just send it back for a replacement?

DiscreetFX
09-10-2008, 08:23 PM
New MS interview & article about Windows Vista with Maximum PC.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/shattered_dreams_and_broken_promises_vistas_failur e_launch

Conclusion for those that don't have time to read the article.

"Should you go out and buy Vista today? Probably not. With Windows 7’s launch scheduled for early 2010, we’re actually closer to that date than we are to Vista’s launch. If you’ve ridden out the storm on XP so far, it probably isn’t worth investing in Vista for just a year and a half of use."

kremesch73
09-10-2008, 10:07 PM
Yeah, unfortunately, tracking down little niggling things just takes too much time, just usually deal with it or figure out another way to accomplish my needs. But by all means, if you remember how you fixed it, let me know.

Sorry I took so long to get back to you about the search solution. But I completely forgot about it.

Anyway, if you're still interested, all you have to do is open up Windows Explorer and conduct your search through the top 'search' window. This way, you always see the location and you don't need to keep re-searching/re-setting.

Verlon
09-11-2008, 03:02 AM
New MS interview & article about Windows Vista with Maximum PC.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/shattered_dreams_and_broken_promises_vistas_failur e_launch

Conclusion for those that don't have time to read the article.

"Should you go out and buy Vista today? Probably not. With Windows 7’s launch scheduled for early 2010, we’re actually closer to that date than we are to Vista’s launch. If you’ve ridden out the storm on XP so far, it probably isn’t worth investing in Vista for just a year and a half of use."

Yes, but people hating on Vista NOW aren't going to buy Win 2010 at launch. They will complain about how great Vista is for a year and a half (at least) and how the new os is to bloated and filled with gadgets they do not need, and say that it is unstable etc...

So that logic is flawed.

DiscreetFX
09-11-2008, 12:05 PM
Even Adolf does not like Vista.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=ExeyrNZwzwQ

DiscreetFX
09-11-2008, 02:27 PM
neverko your way to serious, linking to a joke video on YouTube is pretty common these days.

DiscreetFX
09-12-2008, 03:51 PM
Please quit trying to change the subject from Vista's failure in the marketplace. Maybe Windows 7 will be better, who knows.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2286065,00.asp

The current poor Jerry & Bill's show commercials will do little to prop up Vista's still warm grave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBWPf1BWtkw

Vista may work great for you but it did not work for us and millions of others. We have supported MS over the years and even bought XP the day it came out. It has worked great with a few very minor exceptions. We had to turn off the new XP Theme with the green start button. It Slowed down system performance. Also, VT[3] did not work on XP but NewTek quickly did an upgrade. XP was a haven for malware and virus writers but that never affected us since we use XP for video editing and don't connect it to the net. Bottom line we saw value in upgrading to XP.

Most will never upgrade to Vista, they are not OS lovers but just use Windows to run their favorite software and or to get work done. Vista does not enhance that and is more trouble than it's worth.

Lightwolf
09-12-2008, 04:34 PM
Vista does not enhance that and is more trouble than it's worth.
That may be true for video only work. I actually find that some of the new features enhance my productivity. I think it is more a matter of personal preference than anything else. For me the new (File-) Explorer, enhanced memory managent (especially the heap management has improved a lot) as well as some of the graphical effects and small tidbits (like a complete bluetooth stack) are well worth it - especially since it costs the same as XP.

Cheers,
Mike

P.S. Hey, I still have an old video editor running on NT4 which does just what it's supposed to do and still beats some of the newer packages at some tasks, like editing with keyboard shortcuts only.

danielkaiser
09-12-2008, 05:22 PM
Please quit trying to change the subject from Vista's failure in the marketplace. Maybe Windows 7 will be better, who knows.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2286065,00.asp

John Dvorak has softened his position on vista sense that was written.


Most will never upgrade to Vista, they are not OS lovers but just use Windows to run their favorite software and or to get work done. Vista does not enhance that and is more trouble than it's worth.

Sound familiar? I'll never use a Windows machine, I'll never use a Mac, if you want my Amiga you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands.

Lightwolf
09-12-2008, 05:37 PM
...if you want my Amiga you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands.
Oh man, do I wish that still was an option. Since it isn't I've pretty much lost all emotional ties to the boxes I work on.

Cheers,
Mike

DiscreetFX
09-12-2008, 07:56 PM
@danielkaiser

They don't have enough new apps yet but besides that the brand new Amiga OS 4.1 & MorphOS 2.1 are pretty cool.

http://www.morphos.de/

http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz:8080/news/2008-07-11

Verlon
09-12-2008, 08:36 PM
Vista is a failure in the marketplace? I thought selling millions of copies and making money hand over fist was the yardstick of success in the marketplace.

Mac can make all the really cute commercials they want. As long as Microsoft has 90% market share, I don't think they are sweating bullets..or even bb's.

Apple has done a LOT of marketing to increase their share, but it is moslty marketing. Their OS changes (like Windows) have been evolutionary. There is nothing amazingly new in the latest Mac software that I have seen.

And Vista seems to work just fine here...

DiscreetFX
09-13-2008, 12:29 AM
Verlon that's great if Vista works well for you. It does work fine for some and for others it has problems. We were not talking Apple vs Vista, remember we run VT[5] & TriCaster both products that require Windows. Our point was that for 99% of Windows users there is no point in upgrading to Vista. Maximum PC, an enthusiast magazine does not share our view. It stated everyone should wait for Windows 7 and not upgrade to Vista, 100% should wait. We will never know the true number of people that run Vista since millions immediately downgrade new computers to XP when they get them home.

Lightwolf
09-13-2008, 05:01 AM
Our point was that for 99% of Windows users there is no point in upgrading to Vista.
99% of all windows users would do just as well runing Win95, just as 99% of all Office users might as well use a 10 year old version.

That doesn't mean that they will or do ;)

Cheers,
Mike

dweinkauf
09-13-2008, 09:20 AM
First let me say that if Vista works for you, great! If it would work for me with my older equipment, I'd probably go that route as well, but it doesn't and I can't. Contrary to what's been said, there are a lot of downgrades to XP going on. For example, a local shop near here has seen its business skyrocket in the last year with all the downgrades to XP it has been doing for customers. The owner told me this is the biggest part of his business right now. One might also ask why, for its business customers, Dell Computers offers and recommends free installed downgrades to XP Pro instead of Vista for many of its higher end computers with Core 2 Quad processors.

Lightwolf
09-13-2008, 09:40 AM
If it would work for me with my older equipment, I'd probably go that route as well, but it doesn't and I can't.
See, that's something I wouldn't do at all. I run a mix of OSes that were current when the machine was purchased. Since they're usually promoted (well, demoted) to secondary workstations after two or three years I see little point in updating the OS.

Cheers,
Mike

IMI
09-13-2008, 09:42 AM
Our point was that for 99% of Windows users there is no point in upgrading to Vista.

You just came up with that off the top of your head, didn't you? ;)

DiscreetFX
09-13-2008, 10:04 AM
Yup, running Vista works fine for some but many still have issues. Why is this laptop only offered with Linux or XP?

http://www.rcsnet.com/www_site/content.cfm?c=1049

Because Vista runs like crap on it. Don't blame it on the laptop, it is a great device for what it does. It has sold almost a million units and customers love them.

IMI
09-13-2008, 10:09 AM
Yup, running Vista works fine for some but many still have issues. Why is this laptop only offered with Linux or XP?

http://www.rcsnet.com/www_site/content.cfm?c=1049

Because Vista runs like crap on it. Don't blame it on the laptop, it is a great device for what it does. It has sold almost a million units and customers love them.

Looks nice. They spelled Linux wrong. "Linex". That's a bit odd...
As for Vista running like crap on it, do you know this, or did they say that?
And if it does, it's because of the hardware and lack of driver support. That's all it can be, it can't be anything else, or else all of us running Vista with no problems have some sort of metaphysical Windows Experience going on... or are simply hallucinating.
No, on second thought I think it's the hardware....

DiscreetFX
09-13-2008, 11:01 AM
The thing is neverko these laptops are not old they are brand new.

http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/262034-EEPC-asus--damn-me-awesome/

SBowie
09-13-2008, 11:08 AM
For me the new (File-) Explorer, enhanced memory managent (especially the heap management has improved a lot) I'm still waiting for some helpful soul to come along with the answer to my file explorer question:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=743805#post743805

DiscreetFX
09-13-2008, 12:10 PM
Maybe more bad news for Vista.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10040719-92.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0

IMI
09-13-2008, 12:36 PM
Maybe more bad news for Vista.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10040719-92.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0




Phil McKinney, CTO of HP's Personal Systems Group, didn't deny the company is looking into it, but said it didn't make much sense to build its own operating system. "Is HP funding a huge R&D team to go off and create an operating system? (That) makes no sense," he told BusinessWeek.

......Maybe not for HP, who's the world's leading purveyor of Microsoft software, through the approximately 50 million PCs the company ships around the globe each year.

(my emphasis)

I suppose they should continue "looking into it", but I wouldn't want to be a HP stock holder when they decide to actually do it. ;)
No, that'd more likely be bad news for HP, not bad news for Vista. Even so, by the time they got around to doing it, by making sure all the fancy gadgets people buy would be supported, by making sure it had a web browser and an email program familiar enough for your basic PC-illiterate OEM off-the-shelf computer buyer, by making sure Nvidia and ATI play along....Windows 7 would be out.

Personally though, I say go for it, HP! I'll still never forgive you for that lousy piece of crap you made for me in '99, and I think it would be an excellent business decision. Drop Windows altogether, and get your own thing going! ;)

dweinkauf
09-13-2008, 02:56 PM
Neverko wrote: There's nothing wrong with Vista. If it sucked I wouldn't be using it.
In this thread, I never said Vista sucked, but I do make the point that Vista doesn't work with some older equipment that may (for economic or other reasons) need to be hooked up to a new computer. As far as Dell is concerned, I only use a Dell for office stuff, internet, and word processing (though I sometimes run Mirage and Lightwave on it) and it works great. I agree that Dell isn't the machine for video editing, animation, and graphics. For SE, Lightwave, and other graphics programs, I use a fairly new custom-built workstation dedicated to those tasks, but with XP Pro and XP 64 (so I can use an old Vista-incompatible scanner and secondary RAID assembly).

Tomorrow, I'll be helping a friend, who is a writer, replace her six year old computer that just bit the dust. She doesn't need much in a computer and has a very old printer that worked well with her old system and that she likes a lot. Neither one of us has the time, talent, or need to build a computer from scratch since this is to be used for writing and internet only, so the choice will, no doubt, be Dell.

So here are the choices: (1) Dell with 2 ghz dual core processor, Vista Home, 3-gb ram, DVD burner, keyboard, mouse, etc. for $399. This alternative will probably require the purchase of a new printer; (2) Dell with 2.4 ghz Core 2 quad processor, XP pro installed, Vista Business install disk (for later, if any, upgrade), 3-gb ram, DVD burner, keyboard, mouse, etc. for $574. This alternative is required to get XP and making it unnecessary to buy a new printer.

The thing I like about my Dell is that everything was preinstalled by Dell to my specifications. My job was simply to take it out of the box, plug it in, hook up the monitor, mouse, keyboard, printers and network and start working. It was a no brainer for PC dummies like me who have better things with their time than to waste it configuring an OS and searching for drivers that may or may not exist for older but very usable equipment.

SBowie
09-13-2008, 06:13 PM
Holding ctrl and clicking a folder in Vista opens the folder as a new window. Isn't that what you want?Interesting. It hasn't worked that way on either of the Vista systems I've had - this one included.

There must be some place where this behavior is controlled, or else something different between the behavior of Vista (or maybe I should have sacrificed a rooster, rather than the usual chicken).

Lightwolf
09-14-2008, 05:25 AM
The thing is neverko these laptops are not old they are brand new.
Except that they aren't laptops in the classical sense, Intel themselves brand that class of machine as a nettop.
A relatively slow CPU (even the new Atom is slow, but has a very low power usage), slow graphics, low power usage. Heck, if you look at the lower range you'll find PDAs that are faster ;)
Does Vista need more oopmh to run well? Yup. Does it make any sense to install it on a machine that has been designed mainly for surfing, e-mail and a bit of word processing? Not really.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-14-2008, 05:28 AM
In this thread, I never said Vista sucked, but I do make the point that Vista doesn't work with some older equipment that may (for economic or other reasons) need to be hooked up to a new computer.
But isn't what always the case? I've got machines running NT4 or W2K for that very same reason. OSX and Linux users have the same problem as well...

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
09-14-2008, 05:59 AM
It is working here and on all other Vista systems I've used. It is the default behaviour, no need to tinker with any settings for this.Since you have evidently it working, I've been trying it again. I had assumed M$ had changed something, as it never worked for me).

I've discovered that it will work about once in 10 tries. Interestingly, it works properly every time if I RMB-click and select Open. I'd be tempted to think it's something to do with this crappy Microsoft keyboard, except it works reliably every time on my XP system using the same keyboard. And no, double-click speed doesn't seem to be involved.

I've no idea why it is so unreliable, but I'm glad someone finally bothered to answer - at least now I know no it can work sometimes. Maybe I figure out why it's so recalcitrant.

SBowie
09-14-2008, 06:41 AM
I can only say that the ctrl + double-click action has worked and is working without fail at all times.I'm glad it's working for someone, gives me hope.

Both my Vista 64 installations were 'as received'. In both cases, I share the same keyboard and mouse with an XP system by means of a kvm. Switch to XP, and it continues to work perfectly in this respect; switch to Vista, not so much. At least I now know I can use the context menu to do this.

BTW, apart from this, I'm generally quite content with Vista. It takes a bit of patience to adjust to some of the changes (like the fact that a program is not permitted to save anything into the Program Files directories. That's a bit annoying, but I suppose it's a security measure).

IMI
09-14-2008, 10:24 AM
It is working here and on all other Vista systems I've used. It is the default behaviour, no need to tinker with any settings for this.

Doesn't work for me, either, not that I really need that feature, as I've never used it before, but I can't get it to work.
In my case though, I wouldn't rule out it being because of my keyboards. I have a programmable Logitech G11 for each of my Vista machines, so the drivers could be somehow overruling that.

IMI
09-14-2008, 12:04 PM
I discovered I can do it with my older Kensington wired, non-fancy, plain old keyboard on either of my Vista machines, so it must be the G11 or its software. Strange, but oh well...

Quiet1onTheSet
10-02-2008, 06:59 AM
QUOTE=neverko;749771]There is no failure. It's all in the minds of those with petty little anti-Microsoft agendas and those who don't know a quality hardware setup from trash.[/quote]
Really, on what basis might you make the claim, for example, that those experiencing some difficulties with Vista Ultimate 64-bit Edition don't know the difference between quality hardware and trash?

With that reckless, hyperbolic assumption, you've effectively lost points in making a solid case for your "no-failure" allegation.

As for your blatant refusal to accomodate Bill's valid point concerning the hoardes of those truly upgrading their system's performance, by summarily downgrading to Windows XP, you say...


Uhmn... yeh right. A few XP fanatics maybe, but that's probably it... As I've said many times before. Vista itself is 100% completely rock solid...A few stick with their old XP licenses, but generally people are embracing Vista.

There you go again.

No. Generally, people are *tolerating* Vista.

Why not just resort to a public admission of what, outside of your personal experience of success with Vista, seems to be your disposition
:stop:"Don't confuse me with the facts!"

What have you to say about Microsoft's over-zealous efforts to marginalize those who've legitimately pointed out the many gaffes with Vista, resorting to that deceptive "Mohave" moniker in recent marketing ploys?

[/quote]...If VT systems don't work properly under Vista you need to yell at NewTek. [/quote]
OK, I'll bite:
NewTek, in future build plans for VT, plee-eee-eee-ease pass on Vista; and as for your keeping that bloat-monger of an OS away from TriCaster production units, "Thank you so much!"

Otherwise Quiet1

Quiet1onTheSet
10-02-2008, 07:10 AM
There is no failure. It's all in the minds of those with petty little anti-Microsoft agendas and those who don't know a quality hardware setup from trash.
Really? On what basis should a claim be made, for example, that those experiencing some difficulties with Vista Ultimate 64-bit Edition don't know the difference between quality hardware and trash? With that hyperbolic assumption, you'd summarily loose points in your attempt to make a case for your "no-failure" allegation.

What have you to say about Microsoft's over-zealous efforts to marginalize those who've legitimately pointed out the Vista gaffes?
Almost unforgivable is their resorting to that deceptive "Mohave" moniker in recent marketing ploys, rather than concentrate their efforts on development of an OS that's worthy of our investment.

As for any blatant refusal to accomodate Bill's valid point concerning the hoardes of those truly upgrading their system's performance, by summarily downgrading to Windows XP, you say...


Uhmn... yeh right. A few XP fanatics maybe, but that's probably it... As I've said many times before. Vista itself is 100% completely rock solid...A few stick with their old XP licenses, but generally people are embracing Vista.

Nah, it's more like "People are generally tolerating Vista."


...If VT systems don't work properly under Vista you need to yell at NewTek.
OK, I'll bite:

Please weigh carefully, the value of killing off further VT development for Vista; and as for having kept that bloat-monger of an OS away from TriCaster production units, "Thank you very much!"


Q1

Quiet1onTheSet
10-02-2008, 07:18 AM
Want a cookie?No Thanks. This OS is a harbinger of such, as it is.

Q1
:hey:

CAClark
10-02-2008, 07:32 AM
Personally I find XP64 a ton better with LW than Vista, though I like Vista as an OS.

CAClark
10-02-2008, 09:44 AM
On my system at least the LW interface is snappier and more responsive, with fiewer triggered viewport redraws than vista, and still I get occasional instances where Vista closes modeller during basic operations which never happen in XP64. Only occasionally on that though. LW is generally more responsive in XP64 for me.

It's something that frustrates me as the Vista OS is better for workflow than XP by a long way IMO.

Cheers!

IMI
10-02-2008, 03:26 PM
Oh yeah, speaking of video drivers, the new 178.xx nvidia driver set is really nice.
And now I'm off to test it out with S.T.A.L.K.E.R Clear Sky, which I just finished downloading through Steam. It's a DirectX 10 thing. XP people would not understand. ;)

CAClark
10-03-2008, 07:51 AM
Ah ok. I've never used an ATI card with Vista so I have zero experience with drivers etc. for those. But maybe a card like the X850XT is a bit crippled under Vista compared to XP due to its age.

I have an old Athlon64 machine with an nVidia 7800GS (256 Mb DDR3) card which is an AGPx8 card and I didn't notice any direct difference when I was running XP/Vista side by side and that was back before SP1 and the 175.xx series drivers for Vista. The XP and Vista installs on that machine are both 32-bit.

Drivers do have a lot of influence on how certain things are perceived and compared.

That said, Maya and 3DS Max are fine, it's only the LW interface that has any issues (not major, it just is more stable in XP64). But then LW always was a bit of a law unto itself in display terms.It's no big shakes, I'm not bothered by droppoing in to XP64 really for the most part.

Cheers!

IMI
10-04-2008, 09:00 AM
Yup, LightWave has always been the one to act up, more so than any other application I've used. It can sometimes be a fine line to walk in terms of getting cards, drivers, LightWave and your OS of choice to all play nicely together.



Honestly, I don't know if LW performs any better with my 8800 GTS than it did with my 8600 GTS. I know modo does, as well as all my games and other 3D and image apps, not to mention Vista itself, but if there's any real difference in LW, I'm not really seeing it.
Except for GLSL - that definitely seems alot quicker, and now I pretty much just leave it on where before I had to leave it off, and just turn it on if I wanted to see the effects or procedurals without doing a render.

mattclary
10-06-2008, 08:02 AM
Honestly, I don't know if LW performs any better with my 8800 GTS than it did with my 8600 GTS.

I doubt it does. Despite the improvements, LW is still hobbled to the CPU for display speed

IMI
10-06-2008, 12:40 PM
I doubt it does. Despite the improvements, LW is still hobbled to the CPU for display speed

Yeah, that's right, and I think it was you who made me aware of that before too. You can even see it happening with task manager opened, and my video card barely increases even one lousy degree in temperature.
In this day of massively powered GPU's it would be nice if we could actually use that power in LW. ;)

Lamont
10-06-2008, 08:00 PM
I just installed Vista Ultimate 64. I like it so far, takes getting used to.

Quiet1onTheSet
10-07-2008, 07:11 PM
I just installed Vista Ultimate 64. I like it so far, takes getting used to.

Couldn't agree more. For the record, my Vista Ultimate 64 system has become tolerable for me, so long as I keep that 8GB Windows Readyboost™ compatible USB flash drive shoved up my PC's backside -- and totally ignore that incessantly-flashing harddrive L.E.D.

Interesting that Windows Vista 32-bit doesn't manifest that insane behavior.

Q1
:screwy:

IMI
10-08-2008, 02:18 AM
Couldn't agree more. For the record, my Vista Ultimate 64 system has become tolerable for me, so long as I keep that 8GB Windows Readyboost™ compatible USB flash drive shoved up my PC's backside -- and totally ignore that incessantly-flashing harddrive L.E.D.



Why not just unplug the HDD activity indicator LED connector from your motherboard, it might help you forget about it. ;)

Quiet1onTheSet
10-10-2008, 10:25 AM
Why not just unplug the HDD activity indicator LED connector from your motherboard, it might help you forget about it. ;)Even a measure that drastic wouldn't help.

Q1
:tsktsk: