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Glendalough
08-16-2008, 06:50 PM
As one of the 4 and only animations ( or was it three) that was submitted from the WIP thread when the bell rang, I seem to be the only one that not only didn't get placed but was not even included in any way on the reel.

ONE could say nothing but that would be rather too polite. Hey?

DBMiller
08-18-2008, 08:02 AM
From one looser to another, I was hoping for a split second of show reel time myself! I think everyone who entered should have gotten some recognition for their work.

Eugeny
08-18-2008, 08:11 AM
As a looser i can tell u only one thing: keep working:thumbsup:

meshpig
08-18-2008, 08:25 AM
As one of the 4 and only animations ( or was it three) that was submitted from the WIP thread when the bell rang, I seem to be the only one that not only didn't get placed but was not even included in any way on the reel.

ONE could say nothing but that would be rather too polite. Hey?

Get over it, the rule of thumb when entering competitions of any type in every sphere of artistic endeavor is to see it for what it's not.

m

meshpig
08-18-2008, 08:36 AM
OK, sorry... I sound like a sanctimonious retiree.

:question:... links to the so called losing entries are @ ... ?

Thanks

m

Surrealist.
08-18-2008, 09:36 AM
As one of the 4 and only animations ( or was it three) that was submitted from the WIP thread when the bell rang, I seem to be the only one that not only didn't get placed but was not even included in any way on the reel.

ONE could say nothing but that would be rather too polite. Hey?

Cheers buddy. It's all good. I liked what you are doing. Proves it ain't easy!

All the time I spent writing posts I could have been helping you with the Angela! Sorry. Now I am feeling a little guilt, but a comrade was in need, you know the drill... :)

But it is back to work. Nudge me! Don't wither away man.

Glendalough
08-18-2008, 10:13 AM
Thanks people for writing & sympathy!

Don't really know why I was bothered. It suddenly became one of those times when you put yourself on the point and ask -Am I just going to say nothing? The answer is usually yes but not always, and its never clear.

MooseDog
08-22-2008, 05:52 AM
I too "lost" big-time :). Not one but two quick animations entered, neither one make the cut. I quoted lost because I personally don't view it as such, but rather as a chance to critique my work and improve it.

archijam
08-22-2008, 06:36 AM
I think everyone who entered should have gotten some recognition for their work.

That every entry should be in the showreel?

I disagree.

You will never see a bellow-broadcast-quality example featured on any other 3D App's main website, and for good reason (not referring to your entries personally, just in general).

Sometimes the community feeling here on the forums means people take things too personally. The recognition was expressed here (http://newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=733993&postcount=1).

adamredwoods
08-22-2008, 11:04 AM
Watch the Olympics. Watch how they train and enter many, many competitions.
Do the same for any craft and you, too, can be a winner.

RebelHill
08-22-2008, 11:07 AM
you, too, can be a winner.

now i just need ur credit card number

monovich
08-22-2008, 11:40 AM
wasn't the contest created in order to build some showpieces for LW? If you didn't win don't be sour, just work on your quality. The people watching the LW demo reel are going to be skeptics, and if something on it doesn't look good they are going to say "this is what LW can do? I'll pass!"

-sf

Lightwolf
08-22-2008, 12:07 PM
Do the same for any craft and you, too, can be a winner.
On of my favourites:
http://despair.com/def24x30prin.html

Cheers,
Mike

adamredwoods
08-22-2008, 12:43 PM
On of my favourites:
http://despair.com/def24x30prin.html

Cheers,
Mike

Perfect gift for:
- Masochistic high-school athletic coaches
- Freaks and Geeks
- 23 out of 24 people
- Disaffected college students

hi-larious!

AbnRanger
08-24-2008, 06:59 AM
Perfect gift for:
- Masochistic high-school athletic coaches
- Freaks and Geeks
- 23 out of 24 people
- Disaffected college students

hi-larious!You'd be a little disaffected too if you spent 4 yrs training for a career, only to find out that your degree is worth as about as much as a cup of coffee in the marketplace.
Imagine the students with degree majors in things like psychology...only to find out AFTER the fact that there is NO demand for graduates with Bachelors Degrees in Physcology.

Universitie's are just like car lots...if you go in uninformed (not knowing what the job market requires in your chosen field), you're very likely going to come away being ripped off...no matter how well you applied yourself. But what's worse is...you'll find yourself having the debt load of a few cars, with nothing but a fancy piece of paper to show for it. At least, if you get ripped off at the dealership you have an automobile to drive. Get screwed by your local Uni, and you can't even afford to step foot on a car lot! :devil:
Somehow, the word "disaffected" isn't sufficiently discriptive.

The major problem at many state colleges is that too much time and finances is spent on "General Education" and non-career specific courses. That is the REAL ripoff. If you are trying to prepare for your given job market, screw all the "diverse education" giberish...it needs to be at least 80% career specific. Anything less is theft...

theo
08-24-2008, 09:06 AM
Imagine the students with degree majors in things like psychology...only to find out AFTER the fact that there is NO demand for graduates with Bachelors Degrees in Physcology.

I can understand this. Critical psychology is one of the more subjective and ambiguous sciences. Hence, its heavy indoctrination of cleverly muted and disguised religious principles.

Of course, not ALL psychology is tainted with this social flavor but much of what is taught to the body of hollow minds stems from archaic social principles.

sandman300
09-09-2008, 08:43 AM
I'm right there with you. Submitted but apparently not good enough for the reel.

Andyjaggy
09-09-2008, 02:15 PM
You'd be a little disaffected too if you spent 4 yrs training for a career, only to find out that your degree is worth as about as much as a cup of coffee in the marketplace.
Imagine the students with degree majors in things like psychology...only to find out AFTER the fact that there is NO demand for graduates with Bachelors Degrees in Physcology.

Universitie's are just like car lots...if you go in uninformed (not knowing what the job market requires in your chosen field), you're very likely going to come away being ripped off...no matter how well you applied yourself. But what's worse is...you'll find yourself having the debt load of a few cars, with nothing but a fancy piece of paper to show for it. At least, if you get ripped off at the dealership you have an automobile to drive. Get screwed by your local Uni, and you can't even afford to step foot on a car lot! :devil:
Somehow, the word "disaffected" isn't sufficiently discriptive.

The major problem at many state colleges is that too much time and finances is spent on "General Education" and non-career specific courses. That is the REAL ripoff. If you are trying to prepare for your given job market, screw all the "diverse education" giberish...it needs to be at least 80% career specific. Anything less is theft...

You just about summed up my general opinion on college. Sound like you might have walked that road yourself too. :D

AbnRanger
09-09-2008, 05:17 PM
You just about summed up my general opinion on college. Sound like you might have walked that road yourself too. :D

I'm just really surprised at the level of apathy over this topic...maybe it's because many careers really don't require 4yrs of in-depth training, so all the General Ed stuff is just filler. BUT THAT IS RIPPING OFF THE STUDENT...and the states who help subsidize the theft. I firmly believe our (secondary) education system is in dire need of a MAJOR overhaul...with the main focus being:
1) PREPARE THE STUDENTS FOR THEIR SPECIFIC PROFESSION as much as possible!
2) Eliminate the WASTEFUL content that (the student will NEVER use)contributes IN NO MEANINGFUL WAY toward the first goal.

There is no logical reason to REQUIRE a student to go into massive debt for courses that are simply fluff...if these Education Union idiots want students to be "WELL ROUNDED" then they need to make those classes free of charge!
Most students would NEVER elect to take them...because they know full well that they simply DO NOT PREPARE THEM FOR THE JOB MARKET. That is the mission statement of secondary education...not put "Well-Rounded" individuals in the market...but rather "Well-Prepared." What does a Computer Graphics Artist need from a Natural Sciences course? Even "Art Appreciation" requirements is nothing but fluff. If you don't get enough fluff in Junior High and High School, then so be it. Outside of that, the student is footing the bill, and the state shouldn't be in the business of forcing students to "Buy" what they neither need nor want!!!
I wish there was a way to tap into the rebellious nature of college kids and start a revolt against this blatant robbery! :cursin:
Stop letting "The Man" rip you off!

AbnRanger
09-09-2008, 05:25 PM
Sorry for getting O.T.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program :D

The Dommo
09-10-2008, 04:28 AM
I agree - it's the same kinda thing here. We spent 3 years of a full time course, requiring a big fat student loan to survive on your own, only to find our 'animation' course was being run by a guy who was qualified as a journalist, and his 'animation' classes were simply him handing us photocopies of a chunk of software manual, and him reading this to us. We could have learned faster ourselves by not having to listen to him, and just read the stuff. The other problem is of course that once you give up on the tutors, you are paying like 13,000 for a course where you are teaching yourself.

Ready for a career after university? Hell no.

Yeah, thanks.... Just what we needed.

frantbk
09-10-2008, 06:16 AM
I'm just really surprised at the level of apathy over this topic...maybe it's because many careers really don't require 4yrs of in-depth training, so all the General Ed stuff is just filler. BUT THAT IS RIPPING OFF THE STUDENT...and the states who help subsidize the theft. I firmly believe our (secondary) education system is in dire need of a MAJOR overhaul...with the main focus being:
1) PREPARE THE STUDENTS FOR THEIR SPECIFIC PROFESSION as much as possible!

What you are talking about is a trade school, and those died out about 15-20 years ago. While I do agree that the Universities are in need or repair. I don't agree with turning them into trade schools that only teach specific subject matter.

Andyjaggy
09-10-2008, 08:42 AM
I agree - it's the same kinda thing here. We spent 3 years of a full time course, requiring a big fat student loan to survive on your own, only to find our 'animation' course was being run by a guy who was qualified as a journalist, and his 'animation' classes were simply him handing us photocopies of a chunk of software manual, and him reading this to us. We could have learned faster ourselves by not having to listen to him, and just read the stuff. The other problem is of course that once you give up on the tutors, you are paying like 13,000 for a course where you are teaching yourself.

Ready for a career after university? Hell no.

Yeah, thanks.... Just what we needed.

Oh so true. I think universities are great for some things but face it we are in an industry that doesn't usually give a care what school you went to if you went at all. I had the same bad experience, teachers that didn't know what they were talking about. Had no real world experience and had never worked in the industry. I am sure there are some great programs out there taught by qualified teachers that will really prepare you but it sure wasn't at my school. I got burned and am now pretty bitter about it, especially when I write out that check every month for my student loans. :D

The Dommo
09-10-2008, 11:22 AM
I got burned and am now pretty bitter about it, especially when I write out that check every month for my student loans. :D

Know exactly what you are saying.

jasonwestmas
09-10-2008, 08:21 PM
Enjoy your losership while you can. It's quite boring to be the favorite.

AbnRanger
09-11-2008, 01:31 AM
What you are talking about is a trade school, and those died out about 15-20 years ago. While I do agree that the Universities are in need or repair. I don't agree with turning them into trade schools that only teach specific subject matter.I know what trade schools are for...

My Point is that W-W-W-A-A-A-A-Y-Y-Y too much time is consumed in a typical 4yr degree on "Well-Rounded" education...again, fluff that flat out won't buy you a cup of coffee when you get out, and 95-99% will be flushed out of your memory banks within the first year. That's the reality of it, and these Education Union Scammers know it!

Because it does not contribute anything meaningful toward the primary goal of preparing you for the marketplace, it should be kept to an Absolute minimum (no more than 10-15%). If the student didn't learn enough General Ed material by the time they graduate High School, then I say, tough luck...Times up on the education system. You had them until they were old enough to be adults. Time to stop robbing them with wasteful, worthless, and most importantly...expensive courses. It doesn't just rob them of money and brain matter, but another VERY valuable commodity....TIME.

Let me give you a practical example. When I lived in the Nashville, Tennessee area, I did some research of the various 4yr colleges in the area to see which programs had a degree in 3D animation. MTSU (Middle Tennessee State Univ) was the only one. It is actually a huge college, with a larger student population than the University of Tennessee, in Knoxville.
I looked over the course plan and it was the most pathetic excuse for an education in this career field, you can imagine. All you had was an Intro, Intermediate, and Advanced Animation class. The other media-related classes were more or less cross-training in other disciplines, like graphic design. That's well below what a 2yr Technical college (like ITT tech) would provide.

So, in the end, a student graduating from there is far less prepared for the job market than the ITT grad...for the very same profession and job market.
The key difference is, that the MTSU grad can look down his nose at the Tech School Grad, when in reality...it's the Tech school kid who should be feeling very sorry for the MTSU kid, cause he's got about $30,000 more of student loan debt to deal with, and for the sake of bragging rights and a piece of paper, he also just funked-off 2 more years of his life.
The most important factor is that the ITT kid is probably going to have a much more impressive demo reel. So, given that practical scenario, who invested wisely, and who didn't?
I just feel very strongly that the whole concept of Universities and state colleges is one driven by pompous aristocrats within the Education community. I see as partly driven by a self-preserving mechanism on their part. After all...if colleges and Universities DID begin to put more focus on preparing the student for the marketplace, then hordes of their colleagues would be out of a job! Couldn't have THAT, now could we? I say, let them get regular jobs like the rest of us.
This idea that Universities are just preparing students for a career, but "PREPARING THEM FOR LIFE"...is the biggest line of B.S. (Bovine Scatology) known to modern man. It's the parents job to prepare them for life...not the knuckleheads governing the Education Unions!

All the spanish classes I took...didn't prepare me...FOR LIFE!
The Anatomy and Biology classes (took Biology in HS, yet have to learn the very same crap in college all over again) didn't prepare me...FOR LIFE.
They just hung a few G'notes around my neck, is all. No impact on my "collective intelligence" at all! Any education is only so good to the extent that you will continue to use what you have learned. That is why the goal of preparing the student to enter the market place should be primary and dominant. Why? because it is the ONLY education material that they can continue to practice and further expand upon in their career. Fluff courses are, in a very pragmatic sense, FAT around the waste of the modern education system. All I'm saying is trim the fat...."Work it out, folks. And a 1 and a 2. Now back to the start..." :D

Lightwolf
09-11-2008, 02:23 AM
Well, over here the point of universities is not job training but to teach you scientific thinking (which also includes the ability to figure stuff out for yourself).
Now, just that may be a requirement for certain jobs, but certainly not all of them.

On the other hand, if the parents prepared you so well for life, why did you make such a bad educational choice then? :D

Cheers,
Mike - who quit uni.

AbnRanger
09-11-2008, 03:24 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/video-search/m/20671397/school_daze.htm?q=school+daze

I didn't say I made a bad decision...I actually avoided it, but that doesn't preclude me from loathing the scam that much of the education system is...being tought Critical thinking skills is worth $30,000-$200,000?

Titus
09-11-2008, 07:32 AM
All the spanish classes I took...didn't prepare me...FOR LIFE!


Oh, just wait until your country is full of Mexicans :D.

faulknermano
09-11-2008, 11:38 AM
1) PREPARE THE STUDENTS FOR THEIR SPECIFIC PROFESSION as much as possible!




i am speaking only from a CG artist POV: this advice is not always the best. it really depends on what the profession entails, and in CG, i believe i know more or less what works and what doesnt, at least in our locality.

i personally prefer people who have a fine arts background, strong sense of design, color, etc. those that go to specialised schools may or may not have training in these things, because some spend considerable time learning software. learning software is not a good investment, imo, when i college. you can learn after college, where the software would have probably changed. i think more backbone courses, courses that make you think are essential.

in general, i'd rather have a 'well-rounded' person because they are usually easier to train.

faulknermano
09-11-2008, 11:46 AM
The Anatomy and Biology classes (took Biology in HS, yet have to learn the very same crap in college all over again) didn't prepare me...FOR LIFE.



i suppose you can say that it can be about how it was taught. in highschool i paid no attention to trigonometry, for example. but since getting into 3D scripting i've been getting out my old textbooks.

if i was in a frame of mind that could understand the implications of studying anatomy / biology, i think i would welcome those classes. to me that knowledge is valuable especially as an artist. my only regret is that while they taught us those subjects, they didnt really present it in a way that was interesting that i could be more inclined to actually remember them.

again, to me, education is learning how to think, not simply an inculcation of knowledge or skill sets.

Lightwolf
09-11-2008, 11:49 AM
in general, i'd rather have a 'well-rounded' person because they are usually easier to train.
Thanks for the post, now I don't have to write the same thing using different words ;)

I think the worst thing you can get is specific application training. Learning an application is just a technicality compared to the other skills you need.

Cheers,
Mike

Titus
09-11-2008, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the post, now I don't have to write the same thing using different words ;)

I think the worst thing you can get is specific application training. Learning an application is just a technicality compared to the other skills you need.

Cheers,
Mike

I agree with you but some people are worker bees, they don't tend to do more than they are supposed to do at work, that's what they don't find a need for useless konwledge. I'm not targeting anyone here, but the people I've met at other studios.

Lightwolf
09-11-2008, 12:01 PM
I agree with you but some people are worker bees...
I know what you mean. In that case on the job training should be more than adequate though.

Just as a different perspective, we have a three-tiered higher education system here: Universities, colleges and trade school.
University is definetly aimed at a highly skilled, specialized and mostly academic or scientific carrer (depending on the subject that is).
College (I can't find a more fitting english word) is more practical and a bit more generic.
Trade school covers basically anything from a car mechanic to a media operator (note: not designer!). Usually you're a trainee (so you're on the job) for a few years coupled with a bit of schooling.

Either way you choose, you can work in this industry (there is also the maverick self-taught option which I wouldn't recommend anymore, times have changed).

Cheers,
Mike

Dexter2999
09-11-2008, 01:03 PM
I think the rants about the nature of the American College system are interesting. I mean You don't HAVE to get a degree. You can take classes and learn what you want a good part of the time. I know that there are many students from all over the world who are sent here because a more rounded education is seen as a valuable thing.

There are British and European schools that are subject specific. There are Trade specific shools here as well...such as FULL SAIL.

I don't think my time in Psychology or History classes were exactly wasted time. I think they gave insight in how people and society work. Biology gives me insight into how my body works and the mechanics of movement in animation. I have used the Algebra I learned (a little anyway with a little geometry thrown in)

What they didn't teach in college, was that the @$$ kissers get ahead. A course in networking would have been valuable....and I don't mean Server/Client networking. I mean professional networking. Creating a professional image. Marketing Yourself.

And your four year degree? Well, it may be devaluated because of people who choose to outsource or it may be worth less because of kids out of school using EDU copies of software on computers bought by their parents working for $150 a day are undercutting Professional rates. Mostly, I think it is a mentality of certain people in our society. There are people out there who over use the word "just".
JUST.
It is a word that seems more and more is used by people who either don't understand the scope of a task, or want to belittle the efforts of others. These people tend to have a false sense of importance. They believe they are special somehow and are entitled to liberties, while the rest of us should be gleeful should they deign to leave us their table scraps.

We all need to take a stand against people who belittle our efforts. When, you are confronted by one of these people. Calmly, begin to explain things using language that will demonstrate their ignorance. When they feel sufficiently overwhelmed, then they are approaching enlightenment in that THEY HAVE NO F'ING CLUE WHAT YOU DO!

Your education isn't useless. If you aren't using it that is your fault. If you let others belittle it, that is your fault.

Stooch
09-13-2008, 01:28 PM
What they didn't teach in college, was that the @$$ kissers get ahead.

Although i must point out that college was exactly where i developed a disdain for people who will sabotage your efforts because they would rather be nice. "its nice", "ooh i like the colors", the danger of everyone blowing smoke up your *** is that you will eventually start to believe them.

you can also find them right here on the forums. just make a post criticising newtek.

arrow1234
09-14-2008, 01:33 AM
As a looser i can tell u only one thing: keep working:thumbsup:

thats the truth , keep working, if u keep failing , u will keep learning from the failure and start winning.

jasonwestmas
09-14-2008, 08:27 AM
Another bit of advice if you want any:

You're only a looser if you stop doing what you love to do.

beverins
09-17-2008, 01:31 PM
To be sure, I work for a University, so perhaps take that as you will...

however, I think that a University education is actually very helpful. Look, if all you wanna do is learn Maya and get a job in ILM, then you will say "all those english, biology, physics, and history classes won't help me at all". There is some point of merit there, until you start to analyze what learning that will do to your overall creative flow.

You see, all creative design - I don't care what it is that you do - has to tell A Story. This is non-negotiable. Look at the [insert name of favorite brown caffeinated sugar beverage here] on your desk. That bottle has a story to tell. It has specific engineering requirements but it also has design elements. What do those design elements say? What do the curvy lines on the bottle of Pepsi I'm looking at tell the buyer? Then there's the label.... Look at the images in Newtek's own gallery.. or the most successful images on CGTalk.com. The ones that are the most successful (note - success does not equal a positive emotion upon seeing the image! Success can also be measured if people hate the image) will ALL be telling some sort of story.

Where does this Story come from? It's not all from your Creative Writing classes in High School. It's not from the similar classes in University either. It comes from Your LIFE EXPERIENCE. If you are a world traveler, for example, and have a load of LIFE EXPERIENCES then you have a lot of material to draw from to tell your tales. But if you're like most of the world, you don't actually GO very far outside your daily normal life. This is where Unviersity classes will help.

Granted, I think that for art and other creative type curriculums, the classes should all be tailored towards creative thinking. Like Psychology of Art, instead of just plain Psychology.... but if you are in that psychology class, see what you can glean from it and put that creative mind to use, seeing in what ways you can use these otherwise meaningless bits of trivia to your advantage. Perhaps in the biology class or chemistry class there is something that will help you to understand why your image of an animal doesn't look quite right. Physics classes can undoubtedly help with Lightwave in numerous ways, from understanding light, to expressions, to using that knowledge to make an animated scene be far more believable.

I was a student in one of these liberal arts curriculums, and instead of it getting me down I did search for these things. Turns out that I was able to see patterns in the different classes that helped me not only understand the classes better, but also helped me make some better choices in my animations. Of course, by the way I write, you'd think I was some Master Of All Things, and I'm not - but I did feel that what I learned was not wasted.

It all depends on you. If you already have the stories, if you already have the art training... then what you need is a school like gnomon or full sail or DAVE school. Or go to a unviersity like SVA or Pratt which do try to explain things in ways a creative mind can actually use.

Cageman
09-17-2008, 05:00 PM
you can also find them right here on the forums. just make a post criticising newtek.

yeah... sure... I think there are tacts on how to give critique as well. I'm starting to think that some users have mixed up the difference between being polite and kissing buts (HUGE difference imho). Strangely enough, being polite when giving critique works REALLY well in real life, so I try to practise that on forums as well.

Glendalough
09-17-2008, 06:24 PM
Glad I did the WIP part, just wished I hadn't actually submitted. Bad move -All is Vanity.

My experience at college was all pretty good. Went to a state university that was okay. When I first started as a freshman along time ago, I was living at home and even under these circumstances had over a thousand dollars in grants left when all was paid for.

Of course, in those days people could make so much that many just dropped out because they were bored. I did the same, but not for those reasons. Went back about 10 years ago and took up where I left off. Things were not as easy but even still, the last term I did a internship and so had enough left over from the grants and bought Lightwave.

As far as technical knowledge is concerned, we were always amazed at how little of software the lecturers knew. But one day in the last year, heard this class going in the computer lab (someone in the faculty had decided to get a teacher from the tech school or something) with this guy going over all sorts of commands and trivial detail about running adobe Illustrator. Boy that was really the end of that idea in my mind.

But all in all think 3rd level education, these universities, are really some of the greatest institutions created by man, that is, next to hospitals etc.The brain power for everything we have starts here. The days of De Vinci and people like the Wright Brothers are gone from this over complex world. All is Vanity.

adamredwoods
09-17-2008, 07:20 PM
Go to a technical school to learn Maya to make an image.

Go to a design college to learn to make an image look good.

Go to a university and learn why you should make an image in the first place.

jasonwestmas
09-17-2008, 09:09 PM
HAHA! That's about right adamredwoods.

-Tech
-Design
-Spirit (Lots of writing and soul searching in the name of creativity).

Though I would probably do all of these things simultaneously.

faulknermano
09-17-2008, 09:27 PM
Go to a university and learn why you should make an image in the first place.

a good quotable quote. i agree, however not completely on the mark. there are numerous artists (and writers) who were not educated and yet had great heart.

'education' can mean education in general, education in life. you can go to all the schools and still not have an education, still not be sensitive, or know how to think.




Look at the images in Newtek's own gallery.. or the most successful images on CGTalk.com. The ones that are the most successful (note - success does not equal a positive emotion upon seeing the image! Success can also be measured if people hate the image) will ALL be telling some sort of story.

that's what you want to think. but i think otherwise when i recall all of the great writers, poets, and even artists who have died without a measure of 'success' - not even recognition. and i'm so sure that many a great writer, poet, or artist is dying now as we speak. we're just too busy putting up eye-blowing, mouth-watering, socially-dependent, stereotypical CG images in our web page front banners for us to notice.


i agree, for the most part, about your concept of Story. but i find the references to cgtalk-esque images to serve as an example of Story a bit anti-climactic... at least for me.

AbnRanger
09-18-2008, 06:33 AM
Go to a technical school to learn Maya to make an image.

Go to a design college to learn to make an image look good.

Go to a university and learn why you should make an image in the first place.I doubt the 3rd one. For many professions, a University might work fine...as applied sciences may become useful. Again, it's ALL about obtaining knowledge that you can build upon and CONTINUE to use. But much of that is wasted time, effort and money for some career fields, as it will likely be soon forgotten and go unused. A broad liberal education may be a wonderful thing, if it's free...but if you are straddled with a mountain of debt, you have to ask yourself the honest question..."WHY"...why am I still paying 10 yrs later for frivilous courses I was forced to take, and didn't need at all?

Universities ought to, instead of painting requirements for students with a broad brush, instead taylor EVERY single course toward the goal of preparing the student for the job market. For example, even in private art colleges, speech/public speaking is a requirement. And because verbal communication skills are important in this field, that's very understandable.

Nevertheless, who would pay $50,000+for 4yrs of just general education requirements...so that they would have this diverse knowledge (again, that won't buy them a cup of coffee)? No...the students objective is not to fill their 4yrs with fluff, but to get past the fluff as quickly as possible so that they can begin to focus on CAREER training. When fluff is free, then perhaps you have a point. But until then, it's a colossal waste, with an extremely miniscule return on the (hefty) investment.

Dexter2999
09-18-2008, 07:40 AM
Nevertheless, who would pay $50,000+for 4yrs of just general education requirements...so that they would have this diverse knowledge (again, that won't buy them a cup of coffee)? No...the students objective is not to fill their 4yrs with fluff, but to get past the fluff as quickly as possible so that they can begin to focus on CAREER training. When fluff is free, then perhaps you have a point. But until then, it's a colossal waste, with an extremely miniscule return on the (hefty) investment.

If you look into the Disney Animation program it went through a period where nearly all of their new talent were graduates of the CalArts program. John Lassiter, Brad Bird, even Tim Burton. So, networking with other students and the alumni of a program also may offer benefits.

And believe it or not, there are people (spelled EMPLOYERS) who are stuck on that idea of having a piece of paper. Now, I'm not saying that makes sense, just that there are some people out there who think less of people without a degree. And there are some think more of some people because they have a Masters Degree.

Personaly I place value on a person. Are they good? Are they easy to work with? Are they dependable? Do they give off a weird vibe?

Also a degree gives you something else....a fallback. You may WANT to be an artists with everybit of your being but just not have what it takes. With a degree you can usually find a job even if it isn't in your field. A degree shows an employer that you have what it takes to stick it out and finish what you start out to do.

So, if you go up for a job with your degree and get beat out by the high school drop out art savant, you can always take your resume complete with degree and go for a government job, or teach, or get the Assistant manager position of some shop in the mall (which means working nights and closing because the manager has a life.)

It ain't much, but it's still a fall back that beats dropping fries at the McDonalds.

adamredwoods
09-18-2008, 03:29 PM
I doubt the 3rd one. For many professions, a University might work fine...as applied sciences may become useful. Again, it's ALL about obtaining knowledge that you can build upon and CONTINUE to use. But much of that is wasted time, effort and money for some career fields, as it will likely be soon forgotten and go unused. A broad liberal education may be a wonderful thing, if it's free...but if you are straddled with a mountain of debt, you have to ask yourself the honest question..."WHY"...why am I still paying 10 yrs later for frivilous courses I was forced to take, and didn't need at all?

While there may be some frivolous classes out there in Universities, most of them are not fluff. Well-rounded education is key-- when you have outgrown what is taught as a skill, where do you turn to next? Sometimes people draw from other areas of study to create something new.

It's one thing to have a skill and be specialized. It's another to become SUCH a master that you can create a NEW skill, something doesn't exist yet. Universities (some) offer the environment to allow that study and exploration of WHY.

Yes, we can get a lot out of just "life" herself, but it also pays to know history of a subject, and whom else have studied that subject, so that we may share our learnings. Universities offer this. Specialized training to prep one for a "job" does not.

I think there is a change in the US, where the traditional degree is becoming more like a high school diploma, and the Masters Degree is the new elite.

AbnRanger
09-19-2008, 03:05 AM
While there may be some frivolous classes out there in Universities, most of them are not fluff. Well-rounded education is key-- when you have outgrown what is taught as a skill, where do you turn to next? Sometimes people draw from other areas of study to create something new.

It's one thing to have a skill and be specialized. It's another to become SUCH a master that you can create a NEW skill, something doesn't exist yet. Universities (some) offer the environment to allow that study and exploration of WHY.

Yes, we can get a lot out of just "life" herself, but it also pays to know history of a subject, and whom else have studied that subject, so that we may share our learnings. Universities offer this. Specialized training to prep one for a "job" does not.

I think there is a change in the US, where the traditional degree is becoming more like a high school diploma, and the Masters Degree is the new elite.The bottom line is this...if one spends 4 long years at a State University (not a Private College like SCAD or Art Institute, Academy of Art, etc), they will most likely not be prepared for this field of work....period.
That is why many studios have in the employment/internship section of their website, a list of colleges that are reputable for graduating top notch artists, prepared for entry-level work in the industry. Most, if not all, are PRIVATE colleges. Funny. Why is that? Well, just examine the course outline.

It's not like a University doesn't have enough time to prepare a student in this field...it's just that they waste an excessive percentage on a courseload of Gen Ed and elective Fluff. So, essentially...the student gets less than 2yrs of career specific training. You can try to justify the waste, but a spade is a spade. I have six years of distinguished military service, but it only goes so far in impressing an employer. It's the same with a degree. It may look better on a resume than one that does not...but in the end, it's ALL ABOUT PERFORMANCE!The Creative field is even more so about skill than whether or not you spent 4yrs at a Uni studying Philosophy and Physcology. Offering only 3 courses in Animation in an Animation major is both a joke and worse still, a RIP OFF!
The University grad will lay down the cap and gown, search for weeks or months for a job in the field...only to find that the $50,000 education didn't do what it was SUPPOSED to do...prepare him for entry-level work in his/her chosen profession. If Universities can't meet that simple requirement...THEY HAVE FAILED, AND THEY HAVE ROBBED THE STUDENT OF BOTH TIME AND TREASURE! It's that simple.

Lightwolf
09-19-2008, 03:45 AM
The bottom line is this...if one spends 4 long years at a State University (not a Private College like SCAD or Art Institute, Academy of Art, etc), they will most likely not be prepared for this field of work....period.
Absolutely. Universities don't, and never have, offered job training. They extend your potential.
Then again, eductation isn't job training either, luckily.

Cheers,
Mike

AbnRanger
09-19-2008, 04:58 PM
Absolutely. Universities don't, and never have, offered job training. They extend your potential.
Then again, eductation isn't job training either, luckily.

Cheers,
MikeMaybe not in Europe, but in the US, parents would be absolutely livid if they learned that they spent tens of thousands of dollars to send their kids to college just for some broad general education, that DID NOT MAJOR IN A SPECIFIC CAREER DISCIPLINE. You're saying in Germany, if you want to be an accountant, or a Physician, Architect, etc., don't go to a Uni?

adamredwoods
09-19-2008, 07:02 PM
I don't disagree with you, but I also know that Universities in the US are seen as a general education, especially state Universities. I don't think it's a surprise, nor a setback. It is just something to be considered in choosing a career.

Some Universities are stronger in other degrees as well. Animation is generally weak at the university level, focusing on history and artistic theory rather than commercial prospecting. I applied for San francisco State, and that is exactly what they told prospective students. Which is good because then you won't be dismayed as to what they are offering.

Again, I strongly feel the university level is the new "baseline". Its more and more common to have a Bachelor's degree, so employers have to now weed out candidates using higher criteria. For some degrees, it is needed to get additional education at a 2-year specialty school, or even a Masters. More money, yes, but this is the route these days.

University vs specialty education: It's like being a Lightwave Generalist, vs a Maya Rigger. Both have places in life-- but one will know a little bit about everything, while the other may just only know a small part of the bigger picture.

Lightwolf
09-20-2008, 03:18 AM
Maybe not in Europe, but in the US, parents would be absolutely livid if they learned that they spent tens of thousands of dollars to send their kids to college just for some broad general education, that DID NOT MAJOR IN A SPECIFIC CAREER DISCIPLINE. You're saying in Germany, if you want to be an accountant, or a Physician, Architect, etc., don't go to a Uni?
Having a major in a specific career discipline is no job training. It makes you a specialist at a certain discipline... but not necessarily a productive member of the workforce.
No, you don't go to Uni to be an accountant, that's where the dual system comes into play (trade school coupled with an apprenticeship).
Physician yes, with a further specialisation after the (more or less) equivalent to a bachelor. That doesn't mean you're allowed to practice once you leave Uni though, you still need an approbation for that. You don't study "Physician", you study Medicine.

So, in general, you study a discipline, not a career.

Cheers,
Mike

TripD
09-21-2008, 05:25 PM
The best thing about any learning institution isn't that it teaches you some--thing. It's that it teaches you how to learn. How to research. How to formalize and communicate an idea.

The inspired students will treat classes as creative obstacle courses. They will thrive from the endeavor and learn far more than what is in the syllabus. Other students will just study their notes before each midterm.....

As far as State colleges not preparing students for careers.... Then why do so many different companies from many different fields send recruiters to the state college in my town?

Surrealist.
09-21-2008, 09:55 PM
Definitely a very good subject.

I think one factor that does not translate well to the way the education system is set up is that computer graphics is a very rapidly changing field. The education system is based around some kind of prediction and stability. Not only is the computer graphics industry a very new development historically it is moving at a rapid pace. Both the medical and scientific branches of study seem to move slower. Yes there are advances but they are advances that take more time to develop and even longer to become accepted both in and out of the university system which already is far more integrated with the professional feild - because it has been around for centuries - than something like computer graphics which is less than half a century old.

This is why a vocational college is probably more suited for this kind of industry.

achrystie
09-22-2008, 12:37 PM
I think that a lot of colleges and universities just miss the ball when it comes to a CG/Art/Creative degree. These degree programs should be more like engineering, in that, the majority of the credits are teaching you things "about your discipline". I think it's just that, all too often, particularly in the state schools, the art programs get lumped into the "liberal arts" and are therefore way too broad in their preparation. If someone is majoring in History, Psychology, etc, then the Bachelor's program is really more of a "weeding out" for students who will or will not move to Master's programs. Those that don't move on aren't really qualified for much, and probably never will be, for any "specific" jobs because....there mostly aren't any "specific jobs" in those fields, outside of teaching High School or something. In that case, teaching, you really do need the more "general" education as you need all the tools to teach the subject, not just knowledge of the specific subject matter, so the more generalized education program serves that sector well.

When I majored in Engineering, most of my credits were science, math, and engineering, like 90+%. I didn't have to take a language, and I had only a "few" liberal arts requirements (history, electives, english) and even the english was "technical writing". So...I think in large part you need the Universities to reform their curriculum in these creative fields, as the other two liberal arts degrees to become teachers or do advanced studies PhD, Doctor, Lawyer, or the various types of Engineering are reasonably well served. The creative fields should be modeled more like the Engineering ones, but in all too many cases, the programs are modeled after the liberal arts path.

sandman300
09-22-2008, 01:38 PM
Absolutely. Universities don't, and never have, offered job training. They extend your potential. Then again, eductation isn't job training either, luckily.

We in the US call it internships. Lots of majors have them, including film and video. It also counts as job experience. Sometimes they pay sometimes they don't. The problem is that sometimes (depending on location) there may not be a company offering internships in the area that you want.

Some colleges have job placement programs.

CMT
09-22-2008, 01:43 PM
I think that a lot of colleges and universities just miss the ball when it comes to a CG/Art/Creative degree. These degree programs should be more like engineering, in that, the majority of the credits are teaching you things "about your discipline".

I agree that maybe more classes should have been devoted to a discipline, but I think a lot of the classes I took for my design degree were very beneficial. In meeting the requirements, I took courses in Anthropology, Philosophy, Psychology, just to name a few. Drawing from what I've learned from those extra "unneeded" courses makes up part of who I am today. New approaches to problems or different ways of thinking which could also aid the creative process.

Though of course, I'm on the creative side of things. Coming up with concept designs means you have to rely on your own insight and knowledge as well as utilizing references. Professions where you just learn a craft such as CG and being handed a concept to create realistically doesn't require a course in Philosophy or any other requirement a University might require you to take. You just need the knowledge of technique and to develop an eye for making realistic CG. You could learn that at a technical school. For things like interior design, graphic design, illustration, concept art, etc (fields which are increasingly using CG).... I think a more well rounded education is needed to expose you to other concepts and ways of thinking than just classes in which you learn technique.

I knew a guy in college who went into his illustration courses wanting to make comic books. A couple years later he became a medical illustrator because he took a course in medical anatomy which sparked his interest.

achrystie
09-22-2008, 04:09 PM
I agree that maybe more classes should have been devoted to a discipline, but I think a lot of the classes I took for my design degree were very beneficial. In meeting the requirements, I took courses in Anthropology, Philosophy, Psychology, just to name a few. Drawing from what I've learned from those extra "unneeded" courses makes up part of who I am today. New approaches to problems or different ways of thinking which could also aid the creative process.

Though of course, I'm on the creative side of things. Coming up with concept designs means you have to rely on your own insight and knowledge as well as utilizing references. Professions where you just learn a craft such as CG and being handed a concept to create realistically doesn't require a course in Philosophy or any other requirement a University might require you to take. You just need the knowledge of technique and to develop an eye for making realistic CG. You could learn that at a technical school. For things like interior design, graphic design, illustration, concept art, etc (fields which are increasingly using CG).... I think a more well rounded education is needed to expose you to other concepts and ways of thinking than just classes in which you learn technique.

I knew a guy in college who went into his illustration courses wanting to make comic books. A couple years later he became a medical illustrator because he took a course in medical anatomy which sparked his interest.

This is a good point. However, I would quite frankly question just how much "ways of thinking" people learn in this more generalized path. I think that someone who ends up getting something out of this type of system is "already" capable of creativity and thinking, therefore, they will most likely excel in any system. However, the average person, and I see a "LOT" of the average person performing nowadays, will most likely gather little from this. They'd be a lot better off in a more structured system of courses that applies directly to their interests and future employability, to be really honest. I'd also question what value this truly has against the total cost of education. My personal experience was, I had very little time, and therefore got very little out of the "overall" college experience (elective courses, college life, etc.) I worked a full time job during school and 80+ hours every week in the summers to get through college, and therefore anything that wasn't an efficient use of my time, was mostly a frustration, and not something I could be involved in, even if I wanted to. Additionally, had I left school and had trouble finding a job with my tens of thousands of dollars of loan debt...I would have been none too pleased. Fortunately I made a choice to pursue something that pretty much makes me "very" flexible and able to find a job, in almost any type of economy.

The vast majority of people don't end up this way, and this is most definitely a fault of the educational system itself. I see this every day, teachers, guidance counselors, administrators telling students "oh yeah, just go to college and see what you like, and take a broad range of things, and find out who you are" meanwhile 50%+ of these students don't make it through the 4 years and/or do, and come out and get the same job they could have gotten with no degree (manager at fast food, manager of a grocery department, waiter, bartender, police officer, fireman, etc.). The worst part is, most of the students I see will have to work while going to school, will have to put themselves in debt to get through the whole process, and the people advising think nothing of this because they either a) didn't have to pay for school themselves or get much in loans or b) there is no accountability/visibility whatsoever once the student leaves the door and the administration has been able to check off some box that "such and such percentage is college bound".

jasonwestmas
09-22-2008, 04:18 PM
One always needs a General education as much as one needs to expand on their strengths through a series of more Specialized courses. Anything lacking too much on either side of the spectrum will just frustrate most people I think.

achrystie
09-22-2008, 04:20 PM
We in the US call it internships. Lots of majors have them, including film and video. It also counts as job experience. Sometimes they pay sometimes they don't. The problem is that sometimes (depending on location) there may not be a company offering internships in the area that you want.

Some colleges have job placement programs.

This is again something that only works for a small number of students who have a lot of support, or a lot of luck. Unfortunately, and I was a good student in college, I had no way due to geographical issues and financial issues, to do this sort of thing. It wasn't a large deal for me, as my course of studies actually did apply to what I'd do on a daily basis after graduation, however, had I wanted to do an internship, it would have most likely financially bankrupted me because of the severely increased "cost" of relocating to the place of internship. Because of this, even as a better student than most, I would continually lose out on these opportunities to those who could "go off somewhere for the summer", make money, but spend most of it on rent and food for some apartment somewhere (in fact most didn't need the money for rent and food anyway). This was because the amount paid for these internships (those that even "were paid") were less than I could make on summer jobs, and I pretty much had to work locally to minimize my living costs and save money to keep going to school.
Quite frankly this is a cop out answer as well, because you're already paying 10K plus for school...they should be preparing you for what you actually have to "do", not relying on a small number of available internships in private companies to fill that void. Plus, if we're talking about the majority of people, there are FAR less internships available than there are people to fill them.

Lightwolf
09-22-2008, 04:23 PM
One always needs a General education as much as one needs to expand on their strengths through a series of more Specialized courses. Anything lacking too much on either side of the spectrum will just frustrate most people I think.
While I agree, you don't necessarily need an institution for either - unless a degree is a requirement in the field you want to get into.
I suppose trying a few things for a couple of years might make you look like a slacker, but can actually help pursue what you want with more vigour in the end.

Cheers,
Mike

jasonwestmas
09-22-2008, 04:31 PM
I agree Lightwolf, you don't necessarily need a degree to be successful in your own hopes and dreams! I do have some general ed degrees in art, design and computers but that was out of ignorance of what I needed to know at the time.

Just today I got a general education about computer hardware with help from yourself and some others, it was grand :D

Glendalough
09-22-2008, 05:03 PM
... My personal experience was, I had very little time, and therefore got very little out of the "overall" college experience (elective courses, college life, etc.) I worked a full time job during school and 80+ hours every week in the summers to get through college, and therefore anything that wasn't an efficient use of my time, was mostly a frustration, and not something I could be involved in, even if I wanted to. Additionally, had I left school and had trouble finding a job with my tens of thousands of dollars of loan debt...I would have been none too pleased. Fortunately I made a choice to pursue something that pretty much makes me "very" flexible and able to find a job, in almost any type of economy.

The vast majority of people don't end up this way, and this is most definitely a fault of the educational system itself. I see this every day, teachers, guidance counselors, administrators telling students "oh yeah, just go to college and see what you like, and take a broad range of things, and find out who you are" meanwhile 50%+ of these students don't make it through the 4 years and/or do, and come out and get the same job they could have gotten with no degree ...The worst part is, most of the students I see will have to work while going to school, will have to put themselves in debt to get through the whole process, and the people advising think nothing of this because they either a) didn't have to pay for school themselves or get much in loans or b) there is no accountability/visibility whatsoever once the student leaves the door and the administration has been able to check off some box that "such and such percentage is college bound".


This is just so true except it isn't really the educational system so much as the people who feed off it. Without the grant system as it was in it's prime, the original American idea (middle class dream circa 1930-60) of University doesn't make sense. When I went, oh so long ago, I wouldn't even hint, none of the students worked except on weekends. They usually had an old family car, no security guards on campus, no parking fees or fines etc. Some classes took place downtown in bars (philosophy). But actually, the standard of teaching was quite high and classes small and informal.

Now all the grants and entitlements have been removed and prices just gone way up through the roof. But the really depressing thing is, many of these very people who have benefited by all this, are the same people exploiting the present day students. There are a lot of people walking around the US who have 2 or 3 degrees which they never use or paid for, now kids can't even get one without being worked off their feet.