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Julez4001
08-15-2008, 02:49 PM
:newtek: This is not a slam on Dominic's ROBOTOCHAN.

As someone who didn't enter in the contest and have no beef with the 1st place winner however this is going back to another discussion that Lightwave tends have this in-grain "kiddie" artwork attached to it. Even Cinema 4D marketting is moving from it and starting to wear the whole MOTION GRAPHIC Leader label.

ROBOTOCHAN was good in the criteria of "kiddie" artwork (and I don't mean in its development but its look). Its right up there with Proton's TOFU. Both great pieces but they have to know that outside of the industry and for "newbies" looking atthe marketting of Lightwave, this kinda of artwork is becoming more and more the poster child for Lightwave. It screams hobbyist more than professional tool for your latest visual fx movie. YES Lightwave had work in Iron Man but if you look at XSI, Max, Maya, Zbrush and more important Modo (former Lightwave), they do not push this type of artwork because they are trying to appeal to the big studios and those 16-28 year old demographic - all the time.

Was Iron Man plastered on Newtek's front page during Sig, no but ROBOTCHAN was.

I sincerely hope that in the next contest, Newtek alter the rules and allow:


Commerical 3rd party plug-ins
MDD imports ( I wouod have jumped in on that one alone)
Compositing applications
and more importantly since Displacement type characters are still all the rage in generic app talk:
Zbrush & Mudbox entries.

And when next Sig is up, you plaster that all over the site, its just good plain old fashion marketing against your competitors who do not put up "kiddie fare" 24-7. They may have a shot or two but they promote how their tools were used in the latest film or videogame. -- 24/7

COOL wins all the time.... I can't help it that it does but its always leads.

zapper1998
08-15-2008, 02:53 PM
Interesting point ...

Julez4001
08-15-2008, 02:58 PM
My co-worker saw the showreel and thought that because of all the LW logo stuff in ROBOTCHAN - it was a joke ! Because he said "Is that the best Lightwave Can do ?" and I had to sit there and defend Dominic's work and he relented but I was miffed with NewTek that they had this big contest and was promoting to usersd rather than to folks who may be interested in Lightwave. Because I lie to you not, they are talking about ROBOTCHAN but it ain't glowing.....

Real Talk.

shrox
08-15-2008, 04:08 PM
I too would like to see a move away from the toy and toony creations I see Lightwave being slanted towards.

I do stuff for NASA, was art director at Sega where I used Lightwave exclusively for creation on the worlds' first MMPO that could handle a million players, and used LW in development of The Sims at Maxis, but NewTek ain't interested.

I am probably one of LW's first major users in game development. But NT never seemed to care.

And fine work there Dominic.

Tippsy
08-15-2008, 04:40 PM
I agree although I think it is better even with the next contest to have one of the rules being it must be all created in Lightwave because a few months ago when I was looking into Lightwave I was seeing all this cool stuff but then after reading would find out that the modeling was done in Z brush and the background was done with photoshop etc. And it kind of ticked me off because from that I had no idea whether Lightwave was actually any good or not. I would love to see full Lightwave animations in the contests but like Julez said for the demographic of 16 and up although sure for other little demo reels show some fun and funny stuff like Robotchan but don't use something like that for your main ad I would not have bought Lightwave if I saw the contest and that was what the best in full Lightwave could come up with. Although I am not slamming on anybody either.

virtualcomposer
08-15-2008, 04:42 PM
I agree, LW needs to be posted as a professional app, not a hobby. It will begin to affect how companies that hire people like us decide if our app is professional or not. I seriously would have promoted Iron Man and BSG. These are successful movies that really speak about LW professional abilities. I've talked to quite a few film companies who's goal is to produce ultra realism and I believe LW can do this and have seen it.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 12:36 AM
I think you are giving far too much paranoid credit to this "world of professionals" out there. Like everyone who is a professional 3D artist can't enjoy some fun and can't put a contest into perspective for what it is. And can't take the winner into perspective with all of the other work as well. And lastly would be so simple minded as to think that the winning contest entry is what NT is putting forth as what they see the future of animation. It was a contest. There were many great entries. Some won some did not. The reason they won is because they were judged to win. That is not the end all be all of animation in LW. Clearly not. That is obvious. And that is far from the point. It is an extremely limited view to project these attributes to all 3D professionals based on a few people or even one person's critical opinion. By and large people "in the industry" are far less critical and far more able to think for themselves based on all of the facts put before them than many people give them credit for.

shrox
08-16-2008, 12:55 AM
Honestly, if the contest had said that the winning entries would be shown as a feature at Sig on giant video screens, I would have entered. It just says announced at Sig, which could have just been a mention in a microphone. I'll get ready for next year I guess...

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 12:56 AM
Its not the "be all end all BUT it is "just another" nail in that Newtek marketing strategy coffin when compared to other leading 3d app.

I am not oppose to simple fun BUT once again the "kiddie toy" genre in 3D leads in the eye of lightwave audience. Its a very reoccuring theme with Newtek and if you take even Modo, they do not have a "feel" for being a hobbyist tool. Can you make fun stuff with Modo? Sure. Is that its motif. hell no.

rakker16mm
08-16-2008, 01:12 AM
I really don't want to upset anyone but I really have to say that as far as I am concerned there is only one thing to say about the contest and that is to congratulate the winner.

Congratulations Dominic :thumbsup:

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 01:19 AM
I know most folks are not upset that he won so I think you are kool with giving him his congratulations.

shrox
08-16-2008, 01:25 AM
How about a new thread, maybe with a poll about a direction that NewTek might want to pursue as far as what subjects are featured by Lightwave. Tried and true, or new and cool? Tried and true being things you normally associate with CG, and new and cool being thing you do not nessecerily think of CG for, (but no crap like in the Jokes that aren't funny thread...) or think only of CG for, like King Kong in the recent movie with Jack Black.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 01:33 AM
I really don't want to upset anyone but I really have to say that as far as I am concerned there is only one thing to say about the contest and that is to congratulate the winner.

Congratulations Dominic :thumbsup:

:agree:

meshpig
08-16-2008, 02:01 AM
Ur, sorry where's the vid again?

Cageman
08-16-2008, 02:27 AM
Ur, sorry where's the vid again?

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/contest/winners.php

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 05:03 AM
I know most folks are not upset that he won so I think you are kool with giving him his congratulations.

Yeah I think that is true over all. :)

But even if they weren't anyone is cool with giving congrats, because, he won!

meshpig
08-16-2008, 05:25 AM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/contest/winners.php

Thanks m/ Cage,

Ouch, I see. Yes, well it's the polite thing to do, to congratulate the winner of a given contest since that's all they're about really.

Just would have thought though...

m:)

RebelHill
08-16-2008, 06:03 AM
I just wanna say that Im not entirely sure where this whole, top 10 photo real FX work, is the best, or only, or whatever work that should be shown off... like photoreal VFX is somehow the be all and end all.

IMHO... cartoony, or simple works are just as valid (hell not so long ago, folks were crying "why doesnt NT show off something that looks as good as big buck bunny").

Irrespective of whether its cartoon, VFX, photorealism, arch-viz, medical viz, etc.... what NT and LW needs to demonstrate is work that comes in the top level of its respective genre...

The aim should not be to show "what LW can do"... it should be to show something that leaves viewers clueless as to what app it was created with... is it maya is it max... who knows... but it looks GREAT... oh wahts that... done in LW u say... alright... i'll take a few seats.

Dexter2999
08-16-2008, 06:21 AM
Well, this years entrants aside, I'd love to see the film quality graphics being submitted. In Newtek's defense, it is hard to keep people motivated on projects for long periods of time.

Even if OMFG graphics were shown, LightWave detractors would just come back with, "Yeah?, but how long did it take you?"

I think the initial post hit a strong point with, if Newtek could market the competition as offer to showcase artist work prominently at Siggraph, I think there would have been an unprecedented turn out for the competition.

I say, you have a year guys, get to it! Start working now on that showcase piece for next year. I think it is important to remember that even if your piece doesn't win, you will still wind up with a really good portfolio piece.

colkai
08-16-2008, 06:27 AM
Considering cartoony accounts for a huge TV market - I don't see a problem with it at all.

I think there is an ingrained perception that things have to be feature film quality and photo-real to be "cool / good". What I think is, that given time, if Newtek could put together a reel of work done by one-man bands / hobbyists and studios, it would show the "get it done" side of the software.
Give the folk enough time to really fine-tune things and then show that no matter where you are, from start to finish, LW can produce the results.

As to the winner, personally speaking, yes, not my favourite of the challenge, but at least he had a go.
Given the timescale involved, I am not sure I could of even got that done so I'm not really in a position to be playing down his work.

We can all sit back and say what should of been done, but unless we are out there giving the choice of material, well, it's kinda like shouting at the TV when your favourite sport is on. ;)

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 10:08 AM
It is a ingrained pereception that stylized/photoreal/xbox-ps3 stuff is what pushes the toolset-renderengine-tech. Could it be wrong? Sure but it just as sure it s the majority thought/bias as well.

TOFU is an excellent piece for that "kiddie/toy" genre but its always flashed on Lightwave doorstep where others who try to consider Lightwave roll their eyes when considering Zbrush-andtheotherapp pipeline. Lightwave has no problem pushing the TOFU's/kiddie/batman lego/?/?
motif, they practically own it so there is no need to keep pushing it.

Modo has a Cartoon Kid tutorial but most folks consider Modo as a sleek model-render machine when considering an application.

hrgiger
08-16-2008, 10:25 AM
As a current 3D user and a always a potential buyer of new software, I can tell you the main thing I look at when I'm looking to buy software. What can it do? Keep in mind, I've always been in the mind that the artist is more important then the software, but at the same time, I want to know the software is engineered to do what I need it to do. Looking at Newtek marketing nowadays, I don't think had I never used it that I ever would have.

CoryC
08-16-2008, 10:34 AM
Keep in mind they can't always get the rights to show some of the work that would be good for marketing. For the competition, generally they aren't going to get cream of the crop work with the rights release requirements they have. I don't think you'll ever see a huge turn out, at least not of top 3d artists.

Cageman
08-16-2008, 10:42 AM
Looking at Newtek marketing nowadays, I don't think had I never used it that I ever would have.

NewTek marketing aside, if you knew what VFX-movies had good looking shots done in LW, or, in some cases, the whole movie is based on LW for the VFX, would you still not be curious?

I mean, we are talking about a software that's very cheap compared to the competition but still manages to make some splashes in highend VFX work.

I would certanly be curious! (I am curious about Blender and I'm trying to keep up with its news).

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 11:01 AM
As a current 3D user and a always a potential buyer of new software, I can tell you the main thing I look at when I'm looking to buy software. What can it do? Keep in mind, I've always been in the mind that the artist is more important then the software, but at the same time, I want to know the software is engineered to do what I need it to do. Looking at Newtek marketing nowadays, I don't think had I never used it that I ever would have.

I can't agree with that. I am not sure what you are looking at these days but I see plenty of stuff from major Hollywood blockbuster films in the credits for LW. 300 was the big thing for months right there on the LW front page. A while before that it was Sin City. Those are two very well received films artistically and critically. It is no secret that LW is not at the top of the heap as far as animation.

This contest was for us. And it was for NT. It is not the end all be all of NT marketing. It was a great thing. It was good to answer the call and it was cool that we had the entries.

If there is anyone to blame for the content it is us. Certainly not NT who spent the money so we could be showcased.

hrgiger
08-16-2008, 11:17 AM
Honestly, I don't take much stock into this software or that software being used for any particular movies or film. Usually there is very little to suggest how much or how little the software was actually used in the making of a movie. Further, my main interest is in character animation so the fact that I know that Lightwave was used for modeling or even rendering in any particular project doesn't really do much for me.
Not only that, but I dont' work in the industry, so I'm not looking at what a studio with resources and highly specialized VFX artists can do with the software. I want to see what talented artists can do on their own because that's the angle that I look at it from. So I look through the forums and I go through the galleries and yes, I watch the demos from tradeshows such as Siggraph and peoples individual demo reels. So when I see Lightwave pushing a primitive robot with less then good animation as a winner of all the work submitted by individual artists, it doesn't really give the warm and fuzzies about Lightwave.

hrgiger
08-16-2008, 11:19 AM
Keep in mind they can't always get the rights to show some of the work that would be good for marketing.

Other software companies don't seem to be suffering this same issue.

hrgiger
08-16-2008, 11:26 AM
It is not the end all be all of NT marketing. It was a great thing. It was good to answer the call and it was cool that we had the entries.



So when will we see the end all, be all of Lightwave marekting? Shouldn't we see it at Siggraph, possibly the most visible platform of the year for a software company to make a splash?

Surrealist, you are correct. The contest was a great thing and I hope they continue it in the future. However, I don't think it was wise that a month before Siggraph, they decided they needed some marketing material to use at the show. If they really want something good to show, why dont' they start a little earlier next year, give people at least 3 or 4 months to come up with something that will actually impress people who have never used Lightwave. Let them use other software because Newtek would be foolish IMHO to think that Lightwave can be the one man band to high end work for everyone. They should focus on their strengths and show how Lightwave can fit into a pipeline of other software. Focus on making Lightwave work better with programs such as Zbrush which has consumed this industry. Pushing Lightwave as in all the power you need out of one box is a dead end.

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 11:42 AM
I totally agree with hriger! I am exactly the same way the contest was good etc. and its over but...
Ya if I saw robotchan as the main promo I wouldn't have looked into Lightwave. I mean sure like Surrealist said its been used in movies etc. but I don't want to go digging through a whole bunch of sites trying to find exactly what it was used for on their film and how they used other programs for rendering and modeling etc. I want to see pure Lightwave work that is good from an individual that I can say, Look that guys only a little older than me free lancing and doing amazing work oh what program is he using.....

(but i get that the 300 thing is on there page and the list of movies etc. but how much and what of Lightwave was used in them etc. Plus they have millions of dollars for all types of different software, unfortunately I don't)

adamredwoods
08-16-2008, 12:21 PM
I thought the contest was to show what can be done in such a limited amount of time, by very few people using ONLY Lightwave.

How many people and how long did it take them for Big Buck Bunny?
I counted about 13 people and took around 7 months.

True, the contest could have used more time if you wanted to see a higher level of production value.

CoryC
08-16-2008, 01:10 PM
Other software companies don't seem to be suffering this same issue.

Maybe they don't have the relationships with the studios that the other companies do or maybe the usage comes with a hefty fee that Newtek can't justify in their budget. They have been pretty "eclectic" in their marketing for as long as I can remember so who knows. Maybe they just have a vision of taking over the dancing robot market. I don't try to figure them out anymore.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 01:30 PM
Again. That is ludicrous. I really wish people would stop saying that. It was a contest and the robot won based on criteria that was rated and tallied. They did not pick the robot animation as "the thing to promote the best of LightWave". It simply won a contest for the users. That is all. They stuck to the principals of the contest and even was admitted that some of their personal favorites did not make it.

This contest was for us folks. They did it so we could have our moment in the lights. Us. Us little users not a bunch of big studios. They spent a lot of money to do this and time. It was something they saw as good for them and for us.

If anybody has let anybody down at all it would be us. Those who use LW.

We are not the total of the marketing effort at all. Not even at Siggraph. But it was great to have a presence. I think we should be thankful and proud that many of us individual artists got a chance to show what they can do did.

I think overall the showreel among other things proved that LW artists are diverse.

SplineGod
08-16-2008, 02:31 PM
Ya if I saw robotchan as the main promo I wouldn't have looked into Lightwave.



Personally, I thought the winner would've been more like a 5th place or lower, with such a primitive robot used. The rest of the set was cool...just would've demonstrated more craft with a better model...humanoid robot, IMHO. That robot (not the rest of the scene) looked like something a first year student would submit in their 2nd or 3rd week. This is what Larry (SplineGod), Stooch and others have been talking about when stating that Newtek has not been putting their best material on display.


ROBOTOCHAN was good in the criteria of "kiddie" artwork (and I don't mean in its development but its look). Its right up there with Proton's TOFU. Both great pieces but they have to know that outside of the industry and for "newbies" looking atthe marketting of Lightwave, this kinda of artwork is becoming more and more the poster child for Lightwave. It screams hobbyist more than professional tool for your latest visual fx movie. YES Lightwave had work in Iron Man but if you look at XSI, Max, Maya, Zbrush and more important Modo (former Lightwave), they do not push this type of artwork because they are trying to appeal to the big studios and those 16-28 year old demographic - all the time.

This is what infuriates myself and MANY other LW using professionals. We all know that many LW artists can and do produce vastly better looking results. Everything has its place and time. When youre trying to SELL LW to people unfamiliar with it you MUST put your best foot forward. We know this applies to demo reels when were trying to sell ourselves. We dont show anything that will make ourselves look weak yet Newtek does this all the time. Why even bother to spend the money to have a siggraph booth just to make yourself look weak and amateurish?
I dont care if you have people up there with our without professional experience....you dont show things that give your software a bad impression. I know from firsthand experience the opinions others have drawn from seeing all this cartoony stuff or DAVE school reels being shown and its not good. I didnt go by Newteks booth this year for the first time in many many years because I already knew what they would be doing. Ive already convinced the last two studios Ive worked for to go with LW and I definately didnt want to make my current employer question his decision to go with LW by seeing the same old lame demos.
To further top things off for me my wife has a friend whos husband is also a 3d artist who uses Max. He was sent to siggraph by a studio he works at here in LA to take a look at what other 3d apps they might use in their pipeline etc.
This is what she had to say:
"Decided to hit Siggraph 2008 today with A. He's all geeky when it comes to nerd expos. We stopped by one of the bigger booths on the floor, Newtek Inc who make a 3D software. We sat in the back for a while watching a guy demo. Looked like Dr. Suess crap. He didn't tell me anything of substinance and to be quite honest, we walked away unsold on that particular software based on what he was showing. Needless to say, when we sat down in the audience we were around 40 strong, by the time his show was over there were around 6 of us.
What was awesome was Sony giving away PSP Lites by dropping your business card into a bowl. They gave away 12 in the 2 hours we were there.
I did not win one."
Needless to say he walked out of the show with 4 seats of C4D.

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 02:33 PM
Well we certainly let ourselves down, either way its almost atrocious that in 2008, Lightwave is still caring the simple animation card and proudly I might add. Cheaper and more specific software like Silo and Wing don't even market themselves like Newtek does.
Its really not that hard...go with what kick *** and the money shot...ITS WHY ITS CALLED THE MONEY SHOT and I would 2nd Place winner was the money shot but I can understand why it didn't get the no.1 slot but had thy had a high definition of that one... ppl walking by would have said..."hold up whats this".

Cageman
08-16-2008, 03:27 PM
The problem I see here is that not enough pros have the time to participate in a contest like this. Having, lets say, 2-4 hours per week to put into a production and the deadline is one month away, you will not be able to produce good enough results.

If NT announce a Sig 2009 competition today, with the deadline one month ahead of Sig 2009, I belive we will see some really awesome and jawdropping work being done because so many more will be able to participate, even if they only can put 2-4 hours/week into a project.

Another cool thing would be to have some kind of collaboration with other artists. Somewhat like Big Buck Bunny. I believe that a team of 12-20 artist focusing on their respective key strengths could produce some really kick *** stuff with LightWave.

NT... what do you say?

CoryC
08-16-2008, 04:11 PM
The problem I see here is that not enough pros have the time to participate in a contest like this.

A lot of pros also aren't interested in giving someone full, endless and irrevokable use rights just by submitting.

shrox
08-16-2008, 04:20 PM
A lot of pros also aren't interested in giving someone full, endless and irrevokable use rights just by submitting.

YESSS. Cash. Or let me know that you are going to plaster it all over with a credit that cites me, I can benefit from that too.

Dexter2999
08-16-2008, 05:13 PM
The problem I see here is that not enough pros have the time to participate in a contest like this. Having, lets say, 2-4 hours per week to put into a production and the deadline is one month away, you will not be able to produce good enough results.

If NT announce a Sig 2009 competition today, with the deadline one month ahead of Sig 2009, I belive we will see some really awesome and jawdropping work being done because so many more will be able to participate, even if they only can put 2-4 hours/week into a project.

Another cool thing would be to have some kind of collaboration with other artists. Somewhat like Big Buck Bunny. I believe that a team of 12-20 artist focusing on their respective key strengths could produce some really kick *** stuff with LightWave.

NT... what do you say?

I point back to my post. Those who hate on Lightwave will just comment that people had a whole year to turn out something cool. I would hope however that the vast majority would just say, "Wow, you did that with Lightwave?"

Does it really matter if Newtek sponsored a contest now for next year? What if everyone just started on something as if there were a contest for next year? Then if Newtek announces something, you could have something ready to submit. Just keep in mind the idea is to do it all with native Lightwave (perhaps a free plug in or two.)

Even if there was no contest, (because look how huge the turnout and participation was, and just how grateful the user base seems to be) people who work for a year on a project will at least walk away with a great reel item.

And to the poster who commented about Newtek using their works...so what? Does it somehow tarnish your reputation to have your work showcased at conventions like NAB and SIGGRAPH? Did they pay? No. Do you think it would be easier to get your stuff displayed in the SIGGRAPH gallery competing for space and attention with artists from every 3d package instead of just competing against other LW users? You think there is no benfit from that? The upside could be life changing. I think the perspective of getting paid for something like this is a bit narrow. A showcase of your work in an environment such as this can open doors of opportunity and recognition. Entering your work into a competition is the price of the lottery. Maybe you win, maybe you don't. The difference in this case is your skill can make your luck.

The tone of these post contest threads is really coming across as pretty bitter borderline bitchy.

I think anyone who didn't bother to enter, needs to put a sock in it. Seriously, it is painfully easy to be a critic. Put up or shut up.

Congrats to the winners.

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 07:20 PM
IF Newtek did another contest where

1. You don't have to turn over the content
2. Use of compositing app
3. MDD animation/thirdparty commerical plug-in applicable
4. 4-5 month deadline
5. Add some type of prize outside of their software (ie: piece of hardware, Zbrush, 3DCoat, etc)
6.Maybe even say their artwork would grace the cover box or something..I dunno
7. Make it collaborative


I believe the turnout will be even better.

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 09:00 PM
8. Offer free Doughnuts!!

rakker16mm
08-16-2008, 09:16 PM
8. Offer free Doughnuts!!

Doh!!! Now you got me thinking about DOUGHNUTS! Man, now I'm going to gain weight on the next long render for sure.

Cageman
08-17-2008, 02:55 AM
I point back to my post. Those who hate on Lightwave will just comment that people had a whole year to turn out something cool. I would hope however that the vast majority would just say, "Wow, you did that with Lightwave?"

Not even "haters" are blind to facts I hope...

Unemployed people have a year, but you can do the math yourself to see how much 2-4 hours/week generates in a whole year. The only time I can be really productive is on weekends because I work 9 hours/day at Massive. And at weekends I usually spend alot of time with my drums.

Cageman
08-17-2008, 03:07 AM
Does it really matter if Newtek sponsored a contest now for next year? What if everyone just started on something as if there were a contest for next year? Then if Newtek announces something, you could have something ready to submit. Just keep in mind the idea is to do it all with native Lightwave (perhaps a free plug in or two.)

Well, the rules for the competition are important, it seems. So, lets say I do a really cool animation and render that reminds everyone about Pixar quality, and the rules end up being about photoreal creature animation. What do I do then? Sure, I've got a cool thing for my demoreel, but the contest I originaly wanted to participate in, does no longer apply.



Even if there was no contest, (because look how huge the turnout and participation was, and just how grateful the user base seems to be) people who work for a year on a project will at least walk away with a great reel item.


Well, the number of contestants is very limited by the timeframe because so many are working fulltime with CG and can't put that many hours/week into a project that you never will get any money for. But I do agree; if you start today with something that you hope could end up in a contest by NT next Siggraph will look very good indeed.

Cageman
08-17-2008, 03:13 AM
5. Add some type of prize outside of their software (ie: piece of hardware, Zbrush, 3DCoat, etc)

Good point!

I already got LW (obviously) so if NT have a prize that includes any of their products, the one getting that price should be able to choose.

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 03:30 AM
I disagree about money and other products especially hardware.

The thing this contest is supposed to be is to promote what can be done in LightWave and it should be relatively inexpensive for the host. Therefore I think a free copy of the software is appropriate. If there is a cash prize or another software, where is that money going to come from?

Us.

As it is we will be paying more for LW. In view of the point upgrade factor the first place prize is worth several grand I'd say and with no outlay on the part of NewTek.

I am in favor of things that keep the cost down and the rewards high. A free copy of LightWave is transferable for cash if you want to sell. I myself own another copy I will be upgrading. That would cost me 400 right there.

It is easy to forget how much money it costs to do promotion and all the little things behind a contest, let alone running a small company and continuing to develop a software package. That money has to come from someplace and in the end it is us who pay.

colkai
08-17-2008, 04:37 AM
IF Newtek did another contest where

1. You don't have to turn over the content
...
7. Make it collaborative

I believe the turnout will be even better.

Why not just allow folks to model in Modo and render with Kray?
If you're providing a contest where pretty much anything goes, it's kinda moot for me.
I dunno, I totally got what Newtek were trying to do, provide a contest that was pure LW, which, when done, a new buyer could look at the content of the scene shown on a demo reel and reverse engineer it to see how it was done.
It seemed a logical and sensible thing to me, as to timescales etc, I have my own opinions on those matters which I shall not air here as frankly, it's been done to death.

archijam
08-17-2008, 04:43 AM
Zbrush & Mudbox entries.


Agree on this. The best MAX work I have seen ALWAYS comes form a combination of ZBrush and Vray.

Wolvy_UK
08-17-2008, 07:37 AM
I agree also on showing Zbrush stuff used with Lightwave too. Newtek made a node specifically for it after all. People could say " Yeah, but we can' t afford to buy Zbrush to make our entries, so ours would look crap ", but there' s 3DCoat which is really cheap and supports LW well, and also completely free is displacement painting in Blender, so there would be no excuses then.

There' s hardly any movies or games where displacement painting isn't involved these days. You are very limited in the type of "look" objects can have just using subpatches.
There' s been some really impressive game trailers over the years, like Final Fantasy and Blizzard and they use all sorts of software to make those. Could they be done in plain Maya or XSI ? I don' t really know, but at the time they were made with the tools XSI and Maya had at the time I doubt it. Perhaps they even used Houdini as well to do certain effects, so maybe a mixture of all 3 apps were used.

What about terrains ? Lot' s of trees ? Can you do those in plain Lightwave ? Newtek gave away Vue 5 with Lw 9, so why can' t that be used too ? You would be limited in your choice of location for your animations without a good background. Just use live action or photographs ? No compositing allowed, so that should be allowed too so people are not restricted.

I can see why people thought some of the entries were limited to a certain style, like simplistic or cartoony, but with all the limitations placed on them and the short time frame, what styles are left ?

I can also see why Newtek would like entrants to only use LW, because after all they are putting up the prizes, but in the future, if they are going to limit entries, they are going to GET limited entries. If they want film quality trailers to show off at next years Siggraph, they have to let people make animations the same way visual effects houses are allowed to.

So my list of things to be allowed would be:
Compositing
Displacement painting
A program to make terrains. ( or something like HD instance )

Eugeny
08-17-2008, 12:13 PM
I can see why people thought some of the entries were limited to a certain style, like simplistic or cartoony, but with all the limitations placed on them and the short time frame, what styles are left ?


U can see on my entry that can be done in one month with lightwave only ...
Actually i liked the limitation of using LW only, and NewTek allowed use of non commercial plugins. So for trees u have Treecage , for the terrains, Photoshop and LW procedurals is enough. With LW x64 and dissent amount of RAM, u can make forest (at last for the close distance).

Julez4001
08-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Well I am thinking that there a slew of ppl that could have entered but are use to a certain type of pipeline and didn't feel like troubleshooting the time allowed in Lightwave's weaker points.

Eugency ...stuff looks great.


All this stuff I am talking boils down towhat Newtek tyhink or are expecting on a sig reel. As some folks pointed out, that (that genre) may be what they want and I can just say..so be it.

But don't continue to be Johnny Come Lately in 2011 when Blender produces its Advent Children equilivant especially (if they used other apps in its pipeline).

Modo will do it thought...thats an guarantee.

CAClark
08-17-2008, 03:41 PM
A lot of us don't do toony work, but try getting newtek to put stuff in their gallery!



I too would like to see a move away from the toy and toony creations I see Lightwave being slanted towards.

I do stuff for NASA, was art director at Sega where I used Lightwave exclusively for creation on the worlds' first MMPO that could handle a million players, and used LW in development of The Sims at Maxis, but NewTek ain't interested.

I am probably one of LW's first major users in game development. But NT never seemed to care.

And fine work there Dominic.

Celshader
08-17-2008, 03:51 PM
But don't continue to be Johnny Come Lately in 2011 when Blender produces its Advent Children equilivant especially (if they used other apps in its pipeline).

Modo will do it thought...thats an guarantee.

As an anime fan, I find this to be truly exciting news. Which studio's planning to create an Advent Children equivalent with modo? What made them choose modo over other render engines, like LightWave or Renderman? What software will they use to animate this film?

If you could share more details, that would be awesome. :boogiedow If this information is NDA-locked, though, I understand.

shrox
08-17-2008, 03:58 PM
A lot of us don't do toony work, but try getting newtek to put stuff in their gallery!

When I worked at Sega in San Francisco I went to their nearby office in downtown a few times, they were very nice, and accepted my offerings, think I had a cookie, but I never heard back, so I went again, everyone was nice, again a cookie, left my stuff, never heard back. Went by again, only one guy there, kind of cold, said if they already have my stuff, I would heard from them. That was it.

prospector
08-17-2008, 04:08 PM
Went by again, only one guy there, kind of cold, said if they already have my stuff, I would heard from them. That was it.

So did you spit on the cookie this time?

shrox
08-17-2008, 04:16 PM
So did you spit on the cookie this time?

No cookie, no love, nothin' for da NT homie...sigh

CAClark
08-17-2008, 04:38 PM
That's a touching story, thanks for sharing hehe. My point was that NT have a lack lustre selection of some cool stuff, and quite a lof ot shite, which forms a large proportion of their marketing.

Specifically I am not concerned whether stuff of mine gets in the gallery or not, as I only sent stuff in on occasions when proton said 'oh send that in and we'll put in the gallery'. It's more that NT need to put more thought in to the image that gets projected to the outside world.

Cheers!


When I worked at Sega in San Francisco I went to their nearby office in downtown a few times, they were very nice, and accepted my offerings, think I had a cookie, but I never heard back, so I went again, everyone was nice, again a cookie, left my stuff, never heard back. Went by again, only one guy there, kind of cold, said if they already have my stuff, I would heard from them. That was it.

Dexter2999
08-17-2008, 04:45 PM
Not as a competition per se, but I think it would be shrewd to demonstrate the different product generated with LightWave.

An all LightWave product, Demonstrates what you can get with purchase price.

A compositing piece, perhaps with a plug-in, demonstrating how LightWave can play nice with professional work flows and compositing packages.

A scene to show off the LightWave-to-Zbrush-and-back-again workflow (or 3Dcoat, or Mudbox), to show those incredibly detailed deformations can work in LightWave.

I just think there is room to demonstrate every aspect from 3d Arsenal, all the way up to industry accepted pipeline methods.

And I know the stress should be on LightWave, but it wouldn't hurt to demonstrate the ease of workflow between app's be it detailing, compositing, LWCad, VUE, or whatever show that the program can grow to fit your needs.

What we need for LightWave is another Paradigm Shift ;) If Video Toaster had Copernicus, maybe LightWave needs Tesla?:lwicon:

shrox
08-17-2008, 04:57 PM
Not as a competition per se, but I think it would be shrewd to demonstrate the different product generated with LightWave.

An all LightWave product, Demonstrates what you can get with purchase price.

A compositing piece, perhaps with a plug-in, demonstrating how LightWave can play nice with professional work flows and compositing packages.

A scene to show off the LightWave-to-Zbrush-and-back-again workflow (or 3Dcoat, or Mudbox), to show those incredibly detailed deformations can work in LightWave.

I just think there is room to demonstrate every aspect from 3d Arsenal, all the way up to industry accepted pipeline methods.

And I know the stress should be on LightWave, but it wouldn't hurt to demonstrate the ease of workflow between app's be it detailing, compositing, LWCad, VUE, or whatever show that the program can grow to fit your needs.

What we need for LightWave is another Paradigm Shift ;) If Video Toaster had Copernicus, maybe LightWave needs Tesla?:lwicon:

http://biznik.com/learn/articles/marketing-sales/modern-video-marketing-101

It's a good read.

Julez4001
08-17-2008, 08:36 PM
Lightwave currently seem to be toony stuff and DAVE SCHOOL work-in-progress....... I did say "seems". It may not be what they do 10% of the time or 20% of the time or 90% but its the sum total of what their marketing projects an dpercieved as their base.
We are the 'Wavers and this is what we hear on the ground so you no the 'Maxers, Mayans and XSI-ittes are not throwing us a pitty-party.

If Newtek is going to go after the next batch of freelancers, students, pros or break into even more market they need to get polish.


For example, 3D-Coat (and Mudbox before it got bought) seems like its great app but so far their website isn't a polished, glossy beast. Its seems juuuuuuuuuuuuuust good enough to get some ppl in instead of a tour de force but alas that may be what they are going for or afford but its something to be said about slick marketing.

Just good enough marketing..... :D

Didn't know it had a name.


Side note: The new Fiber Factory Manual looks fantastic. Clear & :Polish.
Almost Adobe in look.

Dexter2999
08-17-2008, 09:48 PM
Two backhanded comments towards the DAVE School so far in this thread.

'Fraid I won't let that slide. I am not a student of the DAVE School or affiliated with it in any way. I will be the first one to admit I have commented about some of the projects they have done in the past.

I have watched all of the project reels the school has turned out. I wish everything could be like the NASA Seals, MECHWARRIOR, SPECIAL DELIVERY, or the STAR TREK fan film they participated in.

Fact is that the toy projects they do are a valid market. Have you people watched an episode of Veggi-Tales, or Playhouse Disney? I mean these are money machines and yet from an animation standpoint I'd consider them both sub-par.

Let's take that one step further. Anyone else here watch the trailer for the Star Wars Clone Wars animated film and cringe at some of the walk cycles? It is a feature film for crying out loud with second rate game quality walk cycles in the trailer!

Also, you need to stop slamming "toon" animation. SHREK 2, a toon, is number four on the top grossing movies of all time. So it has outperformed TRANSFORMERS, SPIDERMAN (any of them), IRON MAN,PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN,...etc.

I will agree that sophisticated effects and photoreal graphics help project a professional image to the general public. But if you want to be a professional in this field, as an animator, you can't insult feature animation (spelled TOON) and retain any sort of credibility with me.

Cageman
08-17-2008, 09:52 PM
You see, Newtek is probably not really that interested in the high-end market (nice that LW is used there) but the hobbyists and lower-end companys are their target - at least their main target.

Not true at all...

...don't know if I'm allowed to say anything more, but I'll give a hint... :)

Their (the LW-developers) visit to Zoic is far from the only place they will visit and talk to during the coming week(s)...

SplineGod
08-17-2008, 10:36 PM
Again, siggraph is a show where you want to convince people that your software is capable or producing a certain quality of work.
What you show or dont show is essentially your demo reel. You dont show anything that will make you look weak or sub professional. Ive attended siggraph for many years and the biggest complaint I have heard from long time LW professionals and non LW users is about the quality and professionalism of the demonstrations. There are more appropriate venues to show off student work, contest winners etc. then at siggraph. When your competitors are showing off what appears to be 'higher end" work then thats what you have to try and match.
I do agree that there are cartoony things that can be shown off like Shrek, incredibles etc but NONE of the cartoony stuff Newtek shows off in their demos (Dave school, Dr Suess etc) does nothing more then give the impression that this is all LW is capable of producing. Again, siggraph is a show where youre trying to convice people to buy your software.

I know from personal experience that Newtek has sent people to visit studios in the past. In the end is seems that
little has come from such meetings.

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 10:45 PM
Two backhanded comments towards the DAVE School so far in this thread.

'Fraid I won't let that slide. Why does it have to be a personal attack for someone to state the utterly obvious...that student work in general will not compare to work by people who are well past that stage of development and have years of industry experience? That's a no brainer.

I can see why Proton would want to help promote the DAVE school, and probably believes demonstrating their work helps promote LW in kind. However, Larry Shultz has a very good point about Newtek using student material to demonstrate to professionals what they too can do if they buy a seat of LW. Kind of patronizing in some small sense, to tell professionals that they can do just as impressive work as the student's if they add LW to their pipeline.

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 10:51 PM
Again, siggraph is a show where you want to convince people that your software is capable or producing a certain quality of work.
What you show or dont show is essentially your demo reel. You dont show anything that will make you look weak or sub professional. Ive attended siggraph for many years and the biggest complaint I have heard from long time LW professionals and non LW users is about the quality and professionalism of the demonstrations. There are more appropriate venues to show off student work, contest winners etc. then at siggraph. When your competitors are showing off what appears to be 'higher end" work then thats what you have to try and match.
I do agree that there are cartoony things that can be shown off like Shrek, incredibles etc but NONE of the cartoony stuff Newtek shows off in their demos (Dave school, Dr Suess etc) does nothing more then give the impression that this is all LW is capable of producing. Again, siggraph is a show where youre trying to convice people to buy your software.

I know from personal experience that Newtek has sent people to visit studios in the past. In the end is seems that
little has come from such meetings.



Yeah well, have to disagree with you Larry.

The contest was a great idea. I want to see it again and I am sure that next year will be better. And I think it is a pretty cool venue.

But I don't think it should be the only thing they show. And I am not in the circles you hang with so I can't comment on the other stuff you are saying because I am not there.

Those are just my comments about he contest. It is great, siggy is fine for it, it will get better especially the amount of attention it got.

I also see that it sends another message to common people. That NT is interesting in giving back to the community. And time and time again yo hear how much the community is a part of people decision to go with LW.

Not every seat in LW is and will ever be a professional in the field you hang with. Nor will it be with every artist and filmmaker I hang with.

This is why marketing professionals should research and make this call not individuals like you our me with their opinions - only.

It should go by broad numbers not individual perspectives alone.

And you can not really define "best work forward" when there is a broad level of interest in the field. I would say that the demo real in one way or another covered most if not all of those interests. But I do agree it should not be the end all of it. But including it and giving a nod to us is a great thing for NT to do and that will sell seats.

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 11:07 PM
Not every seat in LW is and will ever be a professional in the field you hang with. Nor will it be with every artist and filmmaker I hang with.

This is why marketing professionals should research and make this call not individuals like you our me with their opinions - only.

It should go by broad numbers not individual perspectives alone.

And you can not really define "best work forward" when there is a broad level of interest in the field. A $900 dollar application...even though it's a low price for the market, is still not aimed at the Hobby market. That would fall to Blender, TrueSpace 3D (now free), or Hexagon, etc.
A $900 application of any sort is aimed directly at the PROFESSIONAL market.
Autodesk sponsors student competitions all the time...but that doesn't mean they put that work on display during the marketing mecca, called Siggraph, each year.
The whole point of having a Demo Reel is to promote your ability to do work at the SAME level that the prospective employer/client is used to.

Titus
08-17-2008, 11:39 PM
Maybe they don't have the relationships with the studios that the other companies do or maybe the usage comes with a hefty fee that Newtek can't justify in their budget...

Alias used to invite all their customers to send their reels, it was some sort of a honor to be included. If NewTek invited me I'm sure it could be an honor also, don't know if something on my reel is worthy enough.


I don't try to figure them out anymore.

Me neither.

Surrealist.
08-18-2008, 12:07 AM
A $900 dollar application...even though it's a low price for the market, is still not aimed at the Hobby market. That would fall to Blender, TrueSpace 3D (now free), or Hexagon, etc.
A $900 application of any sort is aimed directly at the PROFESSIONAL market.
Autodesk sponsors student competitions all the time...but that doesn't mean they put that work on display during the marketing mecca, called Siggraph, each year.
The whole point of having a Demo Reel is to promote your ability to do work at the SAME level that the prospective employer/client is used to.

By actual numbers I'd say LW falls actually at the lower 1/3 or more below the average professional-level software.

But we can say it falls in the middle.

Blender is not a hobby software even if it is free.

Thing is I agree, I don't think a demo reel from a contest alone is what should be shown. I think it should be included and I like the venue.

But also the reality is that many hobbyists as well as students and professionals use Lightwave. At a 900 price point that is is exactly what makes it attractive to a wide range of customers.

It is definitely not a price point aimed only at the professional market. That is exactly the crux of the continued argument about LightWave in the first place. That it is really not up to professional standards in many ways. In many ways it is in some it is not. But the rebuttal to that is always, "It is only 900. After all what can you expect?".

Regarding marketing again. The broad numbers are the key, not personal conviction.

SplineGod
08-18-2008, 12:12 AM
Rich,
I understand where youre coming from. Its just that Ive seen too many people both professional LW users and potential LW users get put off by the demonstrations.
Its really no different as I said before then what you put on a demo reel. It should be only your best material. No matter how good you are or how good your tools are if you only show work that is "perceived' as low end then thats what you or your software is going to be labeled. I dont agree with it but its just the way things are. This is especially true when you are competing with the 'big boys' in the industry. In the case of siggraph you have one chance a year to convince people that your software is worth buying.
To me it has nothing to do about how good the contest entries were or how good the DAVE school is. In THIS particular venue I dont think showing off such things is going to sell any seats of LW. I just know from being there and talking to others that people are mostly put off by it and I know that Newtek has lost sales because of it. Many professionals I know and work with feel that this sort of marketing tack by Newtek is whats going to kill LW in the end, not the lack of development. You have to remember that perception is everything.
Newtek used to have other venues where I think showing off contents entries of Dave school material is more appropriate. Newtek used to sponsor training tours, Wavey Awards and Newtek Day in LA. Those were far more appropriate places IMO to show off such things. I havent seen NT sponsor anything like this in a long time unfortunatly.

Most hobbyist even tend to purchase 3d software because they feel that maybe they can produce
that next babylon5 or a short film at some kind of professional level. Thats how I got into it
and many others I know as well. Student work would have put me off.

Personally I wish Newtek would figure out where they want to be.

Cageman
08-18-2008, 01:23 AM
Again, siggraph is a show where you want to convince people that your software is capable or producing a certain quality of work.
What you show or dont show is essentially your demo reel. You dont show anything that will make you look weak or sub professional. Ive attended siggraph for many years and the biggest complaint I have heard from long time LW professionals and non LW users is about the quality and professionalism of the demonstrations.

A couple of guys from Cinematics here at Massive were at Siggraph and one of them visited NewTeks booth 3 times. He said that NewTek, once again, demoed basic stuff, such as the symetry tool in Modeler.

WTF?

Surrealist.
08-18-2008, 02:46 AM
Cool Larry,

Thanks for the other perspective. :)

Julez4001
08-18-2008, 05:17 AM
Two backhanded comments towards the DAVE School so far in this thread.

I have watched all of the project reels the school has turned out. I wish everything could be like the NASA Seals, MECHWARRIOR, SPECIAL DELIVERY, or the STAR TREK fan film they participated in.

Fact is that the toy projects they do are a valid market. Have you people watched an episode of Veggi-Tales, or Playhouse Disney? I mean these are money machines and yet from an animation standpoint I'd consider them both sub-par.

--

Also, you need to stop slamming "toon" animation. SHREK 2, a toon, is number four on the top grossing movies of all time. I will agree that sophisticated effects and photoreal graphics help project a professional image to the general public. But if you want to be a professional in this field, as an animator, you can't insult feature animation (spelled TOON) and retain any sort of credibility with me.

I REPEAT! Newtek is the King of the Toon venue. Newtek can literally over the next 8 months never display any toy/toon stuff and it will probably get associated with it. thats why I said 2 YEAR Marketing strategy.

Shrek does have a sophisication and detail that sets itself from the average saturday morning or direct-to-dvd toon films. Heck they had to tone down Fiona because they reach "dead valley" photoreal look on her and her very detailed rig.

When folks know you can do Photoreal, there is no question about "can you do the toon stuff", the other way around...not so much so. Lightwave has the photreal stuff but it needs to continue to market itself to game companies and other market places as relevant.

Zbrush stuff is king. Its still outpaces GI & Radiosity discussions. I get young guys asking me all the time...can Lightwave do Zbrush. Yes. Well show me examples from companies using it. Ummmm hold on. With lo turn out, they mulled and start moving towards autodesk.

Training:
Gnomon and Digital Tutors have maya, max & xsi. No lw. (except Taron recently)
Lw has Kurv studios, which is great but it seems to make a point about not associating with the other three in thier playground. Gnomon is the newbies playground.

I am not insulting animation/toon.
Mind you there are different levels of toon animation as well and the lower BULK end of the spectrum is Newtek's sandbox.

Its just not the first thing to sell 3D.
Sexy and photreal does and Newtek needs to project 24/7 like all the others do.

As with Dave School: adopt Gnomon marketing.

Gaming industry is the 9.5 Billion industry gorilla & elephant sitting in Newtek's kitchen unnoticed at time.

Andrewstopheles
08-21-2008, 02:21 PM
I think the winnig entry was very good and deserved to win. That being said, I have to agree that NT isn't projecting the most professional image of LW users with their current marketing plan.

bobakabob
08-21-2008, 06:26 PM
I think the winnig entry was very good and deserved to win. That being said, I have to agree that NT isn't projecting the most professional image of LW users with their current marketing plan.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=738087&postcount=29

SplineGod
08-21-2008, 10:58 PM
I REPEAT! Newtek is the King of the Toon venue. Newtek can literally over the next 8 months never display any toy/toon stuff and it will probably get associated with it. thats why I said 2 YEAR Marketing strategy.


Training:
Gnomon and Digital Tutors have maya, max & xsi. No lw. (except Taron recently)
Lw has Kurv studios, which is great but it seems to make a point about not associating with the other three in thier playground. Gnomon is the newbies playground.

I am not insulting animation/toon.
Mind you there are different levels of toon animation as well and the lower BULK end of the spectrum is Newtek's sandbox.

Its just not the first thing to sell 3D.
Sexy and photreal does and Newtek needs to project 24/7 like all the others do.

As with Dave School: adopt Gnomon marketing.

Gaming industry is the 9.5 Billion industry gorilla & elephant sitting in Newtek's kitchen unnoticed at time.


Even the problem with the 'toon' stuff demoed by Newtek that even that doesnt look professional. It amounts to simplistic characters with cel shading slapped on. The characters dont look like professionally done toon shaded characters DESIGNED to look good with cel shading applied. If youre going to show cel shading show some great examples that are well designed and professional looking rather then a simple model with a cel shader slapped on.

Believe it or not KURV has tried to find good instructors for material that covers aspects of Max, Maya and XSI but has no much success. Finding people who know the software or aspects of it is one thing but finding those who can teach it and do so in a reasonable amount of time is another. :)

As far as game stuff goes... Ive heard the promises for years. I was a lead artist for a video game company back in the early 90s and was courted by Newtek to work with them on developing and testing new game tools. It never happened and several times since then Ive seen other promises of game tools come and go and in the end the last serious game strategy was to offer discounts on LW to game developers.

shrox
08-21-2008, 11:10 PM
...As far as game stuff goes... Ive heard the promises for years. I was a lead artist for a video game company back in the early 90s and was courted by Newtek to work with them on developing and testing new game tools. It never happened and several times since then Ive seen other promises of game tools come and go and in the end the last serious game strategy was to offer discounts on LW to game developers.

I wondered if I was the only one that got mixed signals about that.

SplineGod
08-21-2008, 11:20 PM
It seems to always boil down to the ol' offer em discounts on LW instead of offering serious sets of tools that game developers need to really see LW as a serious game dev tool.
This is also, IMO, a tough nut to crack since the game market is dominated by those with much better marketing, commitment to tools and deeper pockets. I think Newtek should stick to where they have traditionally done the best and once theyre firmly entrenched there then maybe look at expanding.

Stooch
08-24-2008, 02:44 PM
my theory is that nt wasnt as behind LW as it was about their other products. until mr peebler swung his boot in fury. the booth is kind of a nod towards LW. but ts just a tool to animate text via templates and overlay the results over footage, in support in all of that broadcast stuff they sell. those of us with lofty goals just make do with these logo tools combined with all the third party plugins. in the end nt makes a little gesture, content with the return on the investment, knowing that the kind of people that would walk past the autodesk booth or XSI just to find LW are current owners anyway. everyone else are students who might even be impressed (or encouraged with the apparent lack of competition). I think that in the past, their marketing was appropriate given the place of LW but with their current surge in development, time is approaching to show the big guns and really make a presence at siggraph that is hard to miss. or all their efforts will fall flat on their face and get run over by the steamroller that is autodesk. even XSI has stepped up away from the field that LW occupies.

thats just how i see it.

the unique people using LW with high end results arent the kind that will go to siggraph to decide if they want to buy LW. to be honest I went there to seem the tutorials and was hoping to see some kickass work reel.

Stooch
08-24-2008, 02:49 PM
seriously, I would volunteer to cut a kickass reel for newtek along with sound design and synced up as long as i get to use PRO level source material.

Celshader
08-24-2008, 02:53 PM
I think that in the past, their marketing was appropriate given the place of LW but with their current surge in development, time is approaching to show the big guns and really make a presence at siggraph that is hard to miss.

For me, SIGGRAPH's becoming more and more about hooking up with friends and past employers than checking out software.

Adobe didn't even bother with a booth this year.

rakker16mm
08-24-2008, 03:20 PM
This may be OT but I always hear more criticism of NT from Lightwave users on this forum than from anywhere else. I just seems to me that a culture of "NT can do no right in my eyes" persists here.

NT decided to hold a contest > some people entered this contest > there were winners > NT chose to use the entries as part of its reel at SIGGRAPH

The quality of the winning entries has been challenged as not being suitable for SIGGRAPH.

OK that's fine, next time there is a contest people can enter work that is suitable to present at SIGGRAPH.

In the meantime realize that NT is a small company with limited funds. They are not in a position to do anything in a huge way. It's a small pie and it still needs to be sliced up in small sections.

Thomas M.
08-24-2008, 03:32 PM
I don't mind the subject. But lame is lame and kick ***** is kick *****. I would have been embarrassed to present the real to a public audience. To present amateur stuff at a fair is ridiculous, unless you want to demonstrate what absolute beginners pulled of within 2 weeks.

I don't know why NT fails to cut a reel together by themselves. Why aren't they able to collect all the LW stuff from big and small studios? There's really impressiv stuff out there, never mind my own stuff. To ask users to submit material is risky, because the one's on a professional level won't have the time to participate. Why? Because it doesn't pay off to receive a LW seat if you can earn big bugs.

"Submit your best material" is the only way to collect great work. And indeed, NT's marketing is bad. For what reason ever ...

Thomas M.
08-24-2008, 03:35 PM
If you don't have a budget, than you need to be even more creativ to use your limited resources.

shrox
08-24-2008, 04:13 PM
I should have entered my test of the ship kicking up dust as it landed. Not to win, but to have been on the reel at Sig would have been nice, but like I said before, it wasn't really clear that they would be promoted so much at the show.

When I finish my 70's car race reel, I'd let NT use it to promote LW, so long as I got a credit for it.

Titus
08-24-2008, 07:09 PM
For me, SIGGRAPH's becoming more and more about hooking up with friends and past employers than checking out software.

And for me the opposite. This year I was looking for new software for the studio.

Stooch
08-24-2008, 08:04 PM
For me, SIGGRAPH's becoming more and more about hooking up with friends and past employers than checking out software.

Adobe didn't even bother with a booth this year.

that and I like to go to XSI parties and look at the hired hotties ASSets.

when is the last time NT threw a party with a bunch of half naked models? maybe thats the real reason its the underdog.

shrox
08-24-2008, 08:41 PM
that and I like to go to XSI parties and look at the hired hotties ASSets.

when is the last time NT threw a party with a bunch of half naked models? maybe thats the real reason its the underdog.

The proper term is "booth babes".

Mike_RB
08-24-2008, 10:49 PM
The proper term is "booth babes".

We're not talking about the booth. But I think the chicks with the furry boots and little else we're employees of the club. But don't quote me on that.

faulknermano
08-25-2008, 05:04 AM
And for me the opposite. This year I was looking for new software for the studio.

and what have you found? :)

jasonwestmas
08-25-2008, 06:38 AM
Even the problem with the 'toon' stuff demoed by Newtek that even that doesnt look professional. It amounts to simplistic characters with cel shading slapped on. The characters dont look like professionally done toon shaded characters DESIGNED to look good with cel shading applied. If youre going to show cel shading show some great examples that are well designed and professional looking rather then a simple model with a cel shader slapped on.


Just take a look at the AppleSeed movies. Definately a stylized shading that look very professional and detailed in it's own way.

http://www.appleseedthemovie.com/

I agree that NewTek MUST show content and animation that looks the best of the best first hand REGUARDLESS of the time constraints.

Thomas M.
08-25-2008, 06:57 AM
So, any guesses why NT treats LW marketing-wise like a stepchild? They had all the chances for years, but never managed to make something out of it. Looks not like a failure, but like it's been done like this on purpose.

jasonwestmas
08-25-2008, 07:20 AM
come to think of it in 2004 at siggraph, I actually made it over there and NT had a good handful of great showings for Lighwave8. Granted the stuff wasn't entirely done in lightwave like NT is trying to promote these days. I believe Production I.G. (or partner) was there and showed off all of the CG backgrounds rendered and animated in lightwave for Ghost in the Shell 2. It made me appreciate lightwave a little more. Most of the winners of this contest did not. They are good for what time did allow but is that the best foot to put forward. . .me thinks no.

Titus
08-25-2008, 07:37 AM
and what have you found? :)

I found a lot of options for the near future. Starting with Toxic vs Fusion, XSI, and a system for color grading.

axebeak
08-25-2008, 07:48 AM
Just take a look at the AppleSeed

Very true, and Softimage have all sorts of high-quality stylized works presented on their Japanese site (including AppleSeed and ExMachina):
http://www.softimage.jp/user_case/

BTW, the pages there are probably worth checking out even if you don't read Japanese - lots of interesting info in pics and videos alone, see e.g. MGS4 facial rigs.
(Some of these articles also have English translations at softimage.com, but often in an abridged form, lack videos etc.)

The Dommo
08-25-2008, 08:02 AM
Well, I still think we should do a big community driven animation, pushing LW and giving Newtek something to show next year.

Titus
08-25-2008, 08:08 AM
A better, proven old idea: NT should contact personally their clients and invite them to contribute material for a reel.

jasonwestmas
08-25-2008, 08:22 AM
So, any guesses why NT treats LW marketing-wise like a stepchild? They had all the chances for years, but never managed to make something out of it. Looks not like a failure, but like it's been done like this on purpose.

I think you have a point:

NT People have "Friends" in the industry. It's been my impression that NT is known for having compassion for the weaker folk and their friends. That's fine and dandy, I do appreciate that side of NT; But like I said, the mediocre side of lightwave reguardless of time constraints and budget is not the best thing to push in the faces of the pros when trying to sell something. Higher budget/time projects need to be included.

Titus
08-25-2008, 08:31 AM
NT was sending contradictory signals at siggraph. From one side they had this demo with from the and at the other a grammy award and the phrase "LW the choice of grammy winners".

jasonwestmas
08-25-2008, 08:32 AM
NT was sending contradictory signals at siggraph. From one side they had this demo with from the and at the other a grammy award and the phrase "LW the choice of grammy winners".

LOL! They didn't show the LW contest reel right after that did they?

Titus
08-25-2008, 08:43 AM
The constest reel was part of the LW reel.

SplineGod
08-25-2008, 09:03 AM
I think its because Newtek procrastinates getting ready for siggraph until the last possible moment and it shows. If you constantly beg for free content you get what you pay for. This is why, IMO, why we end up with the types of demos we see because thats what they alreadyhave on hand.

shrox
08-25-2008, 01:14 PM
We're not talking about the booth. But I think the chicks with the furry boots and little else we're employees of the club. But don't quote me on that.

Maybe then they are Bond babes.

richcz3
08-25-2008, 04:28 PM
There are some interesting arguments here, pro and con and many are well argued.
Ultimately - I guess it depends where NT sees its strongest growing user base. That very well be the hobbyist/enthusiast market. So "That Stigma" that can bedevil some long time users may be for the long haul.

Having been a LW user for many years, I've never been a fond of NTs approach to LWs marketing since the 5 era. I always felt the team from Commodores Amiga found a home at NT :stumped:. But I always had to remind myself that Newtek produces/supports multiple products and was founded on hardware.

NT really needs to find a marketing balance that is attractive for small studio use and expanding enthusiasts markets.

faulknermano
08-25-2008, 08:58 PM
Ultimately - I guess it depends where NT sees its strongest growing user base.

it can be argued that the user base is shifting because of the current NT / LW trends. there are a considerable number (call them professionals) who have migrated to other applications in repudiation of LW. so it can be opined that the reason there is (on one hand) a 'growing user base' is because there is (on the other hand) a 'declining user base'.

Thomas M.
08-25-2008, 11:56 PM
... and even amateurs buy stuff that seems to be fancifull, that is professional stuff. So if they don't promote LW as the software professionals use, even "the growing user base" will change trsains one day. I rather see LW at twice the price, but knowing that its development is safely secured and directed at the professional.

SplineGod
08-26-2008, 12:03 AM
Ive heard ppl from Newtek state that they dont intend to dumb down LW for the 'hobbyist' market. Whether they intend to or not thats the way it feels its headed.

colkai
08-26-2008, 05:40 AM
There's no reason to "dumb down" for the hobbyist market anyway.

Most of us want as high a quality software as we can get and certainly "pro level" is what you need if you are going to hope to go freelance / "one man studio". There is plenty of "true hobbyist" stuff out there and I only ever see it as a toy.

I wouldn't dream of buying a 50 quid guitar to play on, nope, got me a custom built model at the top of my buying budget at the time.

The problem is, not so much with LW's failings as a package and what it has or has not, but the continued perception of it. Truth is, historically speaking, I have never felt it has been properly marketed to the best of it's abilities.

There is no reason at all that the community could not produce some seriously stunning stuff given a realistic timescale, but everyone knows that short deadlines mean the old "two of three" rule is going to kick in very much on the downside of quality.

As much as I applaud the folks who entered the contest I do wonder at the 'toy' feel given for some of the entries for the reel. My own opinion is the robot was chosen for the fact it has the LW logo and Lightwave9.5 mentioned, I am probably wrong of course.

Dexter2999
08-26-2008, 05:50 AM
My personal favorite...
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/Dexter2999/Newtekentry.jpg

Not by any means flashy, but funny just the same.

T-Light
08-26-2008, 06:36 AM
Colcai

Most of us want as high a quality software as we can get and certainly "pro level" is what you need if you are going to hope to go freelance / "one man studio". There is plenty of "true hobbyist" stuff out there and I only ever see it as a toy.
You're absolutely right.

Many Eons ago when I used Imagine on the Amiga I used to drool over LW screengrabs in the mags. Even the Manga Babe (what was she called?) shown in real time openGL had my jaw dropping. A couple of years later there was a spectacular demo reel of LW vids on a computer arts cover disk. I absolutely HAD to have it, no question. When LW eventually dropped in price to about £1000-£1500, I jumped on the bandwagon. As far as I remember, that demo reel would still stand up today.

I buy software with two things in mind.
I need to see it's capable of the job in hand.
It's within budget.

Marketing for 3D these days has got to be a very tough task.

Super photorealistic film and TV market (includes arch viz) - HUGE Market
Semi realistic gaming market (but getting better all the time) - HUGE Market
Stylised graphics popular in upmarket mags (aka - penguin footage in the user reel) - Popular for indi work and illustration
Stylised/semi photo well lit cartoon style images (aka bunnies in the user reel)
Simplistic 3D but enormous market of the nintendo wII

I'd rate them in that order and match the marketing to suit. If any 3D package can handle the first three (and LW most certainly can), it's pretty much capable of all other Genres.

My 2c.

ps I really like all of the entries, there's some terrific animation work in there, well done guys, congratulations to the winners :thumbsup:

Thomas M.
08-26-2008, 07:32 AM
Here's some terrific animation work in there.

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. Apart from the example above the whole thing was pretty lame, boring for sure. Never mind how much time and care has been invested. If I don't see and feel it, it doesn't count.

Remember the first Pixar movie in the bicycle shop? How many years ago has this been? 20? Look at the contest entries. Anything nearly on the same level? Nothing.

jasonwestmas
08-26-2008, 08:23 AM
Ive heard ppl from Newtek state that they dont intend to dumb down LW for the 'hobbyist' market. Whether they intend to or not thats the way it feels its headed.

Not everything in lightwave is Dumb ;)
Mostly the marketing side feels that way to me. Many parts of lightwave are complex, others are simple. SOME of those simple things give good results as well as the complex things.

Thomas M.
08-26-2008, 09:20 AM
I have the feeling that there is a really dedicated team working on LW, but the administration of the company doesn't acknowledge what is being done. It feels so wired. LW itself behind the competition, but it definitely tries to get back on track. What they need now is innovation like hdr way back and somebody who sells it to the people.

SplineGod
08-26-2008, 09:21 AM
Im with you on that. Ive managed to convince the last two studios Ive worked at to go with LW vs another package simply by properly demonstrating what it can do.
Ive learned to stop sending those same people to Newteks siggraph booth so that all that time Ive spent convincing them LW is a professional package isnt undone. Ive been embaressed enough times from doing that already.

There seems to be more of a focus on making LW 'industry standard' as opposed to innovating. It
was the innovative aspects which attracted me to LW in the first place. LW as Maya will never be
as good as Maya as Maya.

Iain
08-26-2008, 09:25 AM
A lot of people don't give a rat's arse about the marketing of a product they already own.

If that was really a deciding factor in the software I used, I'd be using products I don't like that had features I don't need.

Titus
08-26-2008, 09:58 AM
A lot of people don't give a rat's arse about the marketing of a product they already own.

Marketing is important for my business. Many times I've said how my clients ask for the software/hardware we have, when I mention LW I get in trouble, but if you say Maya you don't have to give explanations.

hrgiger
08-26-2008, 10:02 AM
There seems to be more of a focus on making LW 'industry standard' as opposed to innovating. It
was the innovative aspects which attracted me to LW in the first place. LW as Maya will never be
as good as Maya as Maya.

That's true to a point. Newtek should be trying to be innovative. But unfortunately for Lightwave, there are a lot of industry standard features that are pretty darn innovative (and I would argue essential), especially when you compare them to where Lightwave is now.
Can you not agree that we could use some industry standard constraints for character rigging and animation? How about some industry standard instancing or referencing features? How about moving vertexes on the animation side like every other industry standard program can do? I think that Newtek is too small to be innovative in every apsect of the program.

SplineGod
08-26-2008, 10:43 AM
Im for constraints, nodes, etc etc as long as theyre done in a way that preserves that ability that LW has always had to do things fast and at a high quality. I see things getting way more complicated to use but no time put into making them innovative or a lot faster/easier to use.
Copying what other apps have already been doing years ago is about as far from innovative as one can get. I also dont see how its supposed to keep LW competitive by copying features other apps have now vs what theyll have in the future.
I dont think Newtek can afford to not be innovative. Those other apps have much larger resources thrown at them for Newtek to try and go toe to toe featurewise with them.

Per channel IK was different and flexible, Endomorphs were pretty innovative as well as bones that work immediately and so on.

On top of that Newtek needs to innovate because ppl arent impressed with me too features that are already being done better by someone else. I see ppl still scratching their heads over the 'new' so called rigging features.

Thomas M.
08-26-2008, 11:00 AM
I'm pretty happy with LW apart from the memory management (sucks/sucker major time) and the animation/deforming stuff. If I model something which needs to be transformed, I always shudder. But the texturing side of it simply rocks. And with fPrime you are damn fast.

richcz3
08-26-2008, 11:17 AM
I have the feeling that there is a really dedicated team working on LW, but the administration of the company doesn't acknowledge what is being done. .....I remember the mid/late 90's. LW's heyday (for me). LW was used in so many TV productions by small studios it was close to impossible to ignore. Babylon 5 was what keyed me into LW. It was an amazing buzz to use LW knowing it had so much industry support.

But then I remember attending several LA Lightwave user group meetings during those times. There would easily be a capacity group in a conference room to watch NT heads make a presentation about current and new hardware :stumped: - handed last for LW developments to be discussed at a LW user group meeting? My friends and I often questioned LWs level of development immediacy at NT.

A company and its program simply cant rest on its laurels - depending on others to soldier on and get the word out for them. Quality development time was critical and it was passed over. As shows were canceled and many of the small LW shops dropped so did the buzz. Reading that user produced animation was the rallying call to promote LW at Siggraph is a sign of the times. Not likely create that real "Industry Use" must have 90's buzz.

adamredwoods
08-26-2008, 11:34 AM
On top of that Newtek needs to innovate because ppl arent impressed with me too features that are already being done better by someone else. I see ppl still scratching their heads over the 'new' so called rigging features.

Yes. "Me too" features usually don't draw new people in, only keep the existing base, unless you're undercutting on price.

Innovative features to me is mostly a UI thing. And they have introduced a new UI injection (gizmos in the SDK).

But before you get innovative new features, you need great foundation code. Since Lightwave has been around since Vanilla Ice's "Ice Ice Baby" hit the charts, it's obvious they're working to get that foundation code up to par.

I think the renderer is where they have started that upgrade. How's the GI? Does it feel innovative? APS? Catmull-Clark subds? Instancing?

hrgiger
08-26-2008, 11:43 AM
Im for constraints, nodes, etc etc as long as theyre done in a way that preserves that ability that LW has always had to do things fast and at a high quality. I see things getting way more complicated to use but no time put into making them innovative or a lot faster/easier to use.
Copying what other apps have already been doing years ago is about as far from innovative as one can get. I also dont see how its supposed to keep LW competitive by copying features other apps have now vs what theyll have in the future.


So what you're basically saying is that you're willing to forfeit a lot of power and flexiblity at the cost of being accused of not being innovative enough? Something like a simple constraint in XSI is so powerful and so easy to setup, you can use it to create a dynamic parenting that would take a headache workaround in Lightwave to do the same and with not even as predictable results. So things aren't always done as 'fast' and as 'high quality' in Lightwave as they are in other applications.
As far as you not understanding how Lightwave can stay competitive by copying other applications, I think it's pretty simple. Why not ask the many many LW users who have drifted elsewhere? It's because they see things that other apps are doing that they wish or feel that Lightwave should be able to do. I'm willing to bet (and I'm speaking from experience here) that a lot of people would have loved to have kept using Lightwave but there are just certain basic things it cannot do, at least not without a workaround that pretty much cancels out the whole faster and easier use argument about Lightwave.
And Larry, I'm talking basic things here, I'm not talking about displacement painting or any other buzzword features, I'm talking about strictly basic functionality. How basic is it to constrain one object to another? Or how basic is it to be able to select points in Layout and animate them? Let Newtek be innovative with some new way to animate or whatever. But let's also have some basic functionality that every other program out there seems to have figured out.

Julez4001
08-26-2008, 02:16 PM
Well, I still think we should do a big community driven animation, pushing LW and giving Newtek something to show next year.

Great idea, Dommo.
Any thoughts?

Thomas M.
08-26-2008, 02:22 PM
Great idea, Dommo.
Any thoughts?

No way, that's the companies task. They don't do my work, I don't do theirs. If they ask certain users to contribute their work and pay those for it (either with a LW seat, goodies or cash) it's fine. But don't let us do their job. LW 9.5 is out, the doc not even updated, no demonstration videos around and we'll provide the demo reel for LW? Don't make me laugh ...

Julez4001
08-26-2008, 02:27 PM
I see your point Thomas but we can mull some ideas around in hopes that when they do another one thery pick something we already discussed.
As for innovation, Modo definitely has that torch that Lightwave use to have.

Aside from the node editor, LW hasn't lead in anything "innovative".

How old is Hypervoxel? You wouldhave thought 4.0 would be out or they've made it faster or something.


IKBOOST is awesome and NBC new (as in if you haven't seen then its new to you) but its been inthere.

Oedo 808
08-26-2008, 02:48 PM
Well I'm ok as I don't have the skills to do anything that would promote Lightwave. But if anyone is going to try for this they need to liaise with NewTek to make sure what they are working on is going to get used.

Remember there is no accounting for taste, what to every forumer is simply amazing and must be held up as an example of Lightwave's ability, may not fall in with Newtek's marketing strategy and therefore may get left on the scrap heap.

adamredwoods
08-26-2008, 03:02 PM
No way, that's the companies task. They don't do my work, I don't do theirs. If they ask certain users to contribute their work and pay those for it (either with a LW seat, goodies or cash) it's fine. But don't let us do their job. LW 9.5 is out, the doc not even updated, no demonstration videos around and we'll provide the demo reel for LW? Don't make me laugh ...

This is true. And besides, I think that NewTek would want you to focus on a piece that you have passion for, not for just the sake of the software.

The Dommo
08-26-2008, 03:59 PM
This is true. And besides, I think that NewTek would want you to focus on a piece that you have passion for, not for just the sake of the software.

That's exactly my point. As I stated in the thread of "after thoughts", we can come up with an idea and put that to Newtek. I would not expect anybody to put months of work in for free, to not have it used or shown.

BUT, if we want LW to become more recognised, with a piece of work we can all be proud of, put OUR names to, and have it shown by NT, what's wrong with that?

As I also said in that thread, if it can be done with Blender, and now Hash Animation Master, why the chuff can't this community do it, and pull together as one team of awesomeness?

adamredwoods
08-26-2008, 05:11 PM
But don't even look to NT if you want to make something like "Big Buck Bunny".

If you have a story (and storyboards) about a subject you are passionate about, just start a thread and try to make it an all Lightwave production. I'm sure people will help out if you're willing to make all scene files open.

The Dommo
08-26-2008, 06:17 PM
Again, you are thinking along very similar lines to me without realising it.

However, I feel we can come up with an idea as a community, the concept sketches and the storyboards too. Everything, as a community.

I was just thinking of a new thread too!

All I would ask of NT is their support back to the community, and actually make use of what is created.

I'll give NT a holla and see what vibes I get back :)



But don't even look to NT if you want to make something like "Big Buck Bunny".

If you have a story (and storyboards) about a subject you are passionate about, just start a thread and try to make it an all Lightwave production. I'm sure people will help out if you're willing to make all scene files open.

Titus
08-26-2008, 06:24 PM
As I also said in that thread, if it can be done with Blender, and now Hash Animation Master, why the chuff can't this community do it, and pull together as one team of awesomeness?

You seem to forget the 100,000 euros they spent creating BBB.

adamredwoods
08-26-2008, 06:25 PM
Again, you are thinking along very similar lines to me without realising it.

However, I feel we can come up with an idea as a community, the concept sketches and the storyboards too. Everything, as a community.


I have to say, that if you REALLY want to see it realized, do the Pixar process. Where the best idea/script gets made and that person controls the main creative decisions.

You may have a hard time having someone draw up storyboards, best to have the winner do that, too.

shrox
08-26-2008, 06:26 PM
No way, that's the companies task. They don't do my work, I don't do theirs. If they ask certain users to contribute their work and pay those for it (either with a LW seat, goodies or cash) it's fine. But don't let us do their job. LW 9.5 is out, the doc not even updated, no demonstration videos around and we'll provide the demo reel for LW? Don't make me laugh ...

Cool for you, but I want my stuff on the NewTek show and demo reel. How do I get on it?

Dexter2999
08-26-2008, 06:49 PM
Hmmm....I have a story I am starting on right now. I was going to try to do it all alone over the course of a couple of years. It could be largely a LightWave project. I would say all but I haven't seen any of the new Fur and Fibre examples that are up to snuff.

I think the story is there though (of course, because I wrote it.) Loveable furry character. Action. Comedy.

Anyway, I am making arrangements now for recording the soundtrack. I have talked with some actors, I have more to talk to....and I have to save up to pay them because I blew all my savings on recording gear.

You can read a little more about it here:
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?p=230938#post230938

The Dommo
08-26-2008, 07:17 PM
we've got access to a 5.1 audio mixing studio, who could probably be talked into doing most if not all the audio post-production (track laying, sound design, mixing etc) for free, if the project is good enough.

So like I said, I'll talk to NT and see what they think.

100,000 bucks... hmm didn't know about that actually. Well, let's take this one step at a time :)

faulknermano
08-26-2008, 08:39 PM
This is true. And besides, I think that NewTek would want you to focus on a piece that you have passion for, not for just the sake of the software.


if true, then that sentiment would have been more useful if it was directed towards the contest and strip the "LW-only" requirement (ie no compositing). in this day and age, there are very few serious hobbyists (and more so professionals) who dont composite their final work.

some may say "hey it's their contest, it's their rules!". and that is precisely the problem: the rules are the only ones you make for yourself. in the end it only limited that portion of the LW reel.


we've got access to a 5.1 audio mixing studio, who could probably be talked into doing most if not all the audio post-production (track laying, sound design, mixing etc) for free, if the project is good enough.

as much as i enjoy seeing such enthusiasm, i cant help but feel that collaborations such as what some here are trying to get into will not work out anything. how many forum / mailing list collaborations i've seen start and stop especially when it comes to this. i'm not asking you to stop (obviously) and do continue but more so for your own sake's not for the sake of LW advertising.

however, i think titus offered the best suggestion when he said NT should request current users their LW-related reels. it's the most professional route: the resulting content would have been produced in a professional environment, pushing and managing LW in that situation. it shows LW *in context*: in context with different-sized workflow / pipes (if any), in context with other software applications (e.g. data collaboration, creative combination), in context with real-life production limitations (and the ways in which it was used to overcome these problems). these speak volumes about the software (for good or ill). the strategy of presenting work that was done "all in LW" is not effective, both in terms of convincing professionals about their actual concerns, or in terms with the final results that a professional (or a serious hobbyist for that matter) is expecting. LW should not exist in a vacuum all to itself.

i realise that NT has been doing this already to a degree (and i havent seen the whole siggraph reel). but if the complaints here are anything to go by, it appears that NT's good foot is probably being besmirched by their bad one.

Dexter2999
08-26-2008, 08:49 PM
You seem to forget the 100,000 euros they spent creating BBB.

According to Ton, like 63% of that was DVD presales. Nicely done, Sir.



As for my proposed project, I did forget one minor point.

If my story were to get made....I would need to reserve the right to have it submitted for showing at Sundance. And for those of you who don't know, Sundance doesn't accept works previously shown.

But hey, if it won even mention that is more bragging rights for the Newtek, eh?

Titus
08-26-2008, 11:15 PM
Yeah, the high caliber festivals only accept unseen material but at the same time some are also moving to digital, then you can move down to the less demanding until you can reach the last step: youtube and websites. There's a nice article in 3D World mag (BBB issue) about creating a strategy for festival touring.

I'm in the last part of my short now and doing some research to the screening, now it's festival time and most submitions are closed until next year. I feel this is gonna be the funny part.

SplineGod
08-26-2008, 11:43 PM
No way, that's the companies task. They don't do my work, I don't do theirs. If they ask certain users to contribute their work and pay those for it (either with a LW seat, goodies or cash) it's fine. But don't let us do their job. LW 9.5 is out, the doc not even updated, no demonstration videos around and we'll provide the demo reel for LW? Don't make me laugh ...

Bingo! Right now it is the users who do most of the marketing for LW. You would think that Newtek would take the time to sponsor a project like Big Buck Bunny to REALLY show off what LW can do including providing the assets to end users. If it can be done for something like Blender then why not for LW?
They cant keep on relying on end users to get conent. Good content takes time to produce. Anyone capable of producing professional looking content is also worth paying to produce that content.

Titus
08-26-2008, 11:49 PM
Animation sponsored by the software makers often work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzeD0ibhkHA), and sometimes don't (http://www.nvidia.com/object/gz_plush_life.html).

The Dommo
08-27-2008, 03:37 AM
Man, I remember that Maya 1 demo anim, Bingo the Clown. Use to freak us all out at university! Still very well done in most respects to this day.

"Music Please!!"

:help:


Animation sponsored by the software makers often work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzeD0ibhkHA), and sometimes don't (http://www.nvidia.com/object/gz_plush_life.html).

hrgiger
08-27-2008, 09:58 AM
Animation sponsored by the software makers often work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzeD0ibhkHA), and sometimes don't (http://www.nvidia.com/object/gz_plush_life.html).

Did you mean to reverse the links? Because I thought that the Bingo one was stupid but the other one had me rolling.

Titus
08-27-2008, 10:20 AM
The plush life did nothing to save Gelato, that's what I meant.

CoryC
08-27-2008, 10:27 AM
Did you mean to reverse the links? Because I thought that the Bingo one was stupid but the other one had me rolling.

When Bingo came out in the late 90's, it was very effective for Maya.

GraphXs
08-29-2008, 08:05 AM
Hey everyone, I've seen some nice marketing come out of Newtek for LW:

I wisk they made it easier to find:

Look Here: http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/getitdone/

Also it's to big to put on here, but Newtek, please post the

LW9_brochure_v9.5finalPrint.pdf:thumbsup:

Great stuff in there! That would of been nice to have big posters of it at Siggraph! (I attached some page's from it)

GraphXs
08-29-2008, 08:11 AM
The Brochure covers all aspects of LW for Film,games,tv, print and short films. Also the Dr.Susses stuff that WV showed at Sigg was nice, he was showing off some [email protected]@ shaders done with the node editor. I wish I spent more time in the booth, the Animation GI demo stuff was great! Newtek please post that demo!
:thumbsup:

StereoMike
08-30-2008, 09:00 AM
The robot was the winner of the contest right? Didn't understand, why they chose something resembling a flying logo as an example for outstanding 3D work. I don't want to insult the creator of it, I think it surely has it's place elsewhere, just not as a flagship animation at siggraph.
And I second every opinion on lw-cartoon stuff getting boring. There's definetly great toon stuff made with lw (look at Japan), but I can't stand the look of those really low-poly subd models of every Seuss character under the sun.

The brochure is nice btw.

mike

Dexter2999
08-30-2008, 09:31 AM
The robot was the winner of the contest right? Didn't understand, why they chose something resembling a flying logo as an example for outstanding 3D work. I don't want to insult the creator of it, I think it surely has it's place elsewhere, just not as a flagship animation at siggraph.
And I second every opinion on lw-cartoon stuff getting boring. There's definetly great toon stuff made with lw (look at Japan), but I can't stand the look of those really low-poly subd models of every Seuss character under the sun.

The brochure is nice btw.

mike

My guess is the selection had a good bit to do with the video exemplified what marketing people were looking for. Not what 3d artists were looking for perhaps. But it had the LightWave logo. It mentioned SIGGRAPH. It had high energy camera movements and it was fun.

I cringe every thime I hear someone slam "Seuss", because almost everything Seuss I have seen around here was done by Proton. I think with what he has done for the LW community this slighting is bad form. Plus he is a really nice guy.

His stuff is shown prominently because he works for the company and they want SOMETHING of quality to show. His stuff is fun and frivolous. It seems that is mostly his style and it let's him crank out volumes.


I understand that more users would like to see more serious models. Then I think more users need to submit serious works.

richcz3
08-30-2008, 11:05 AM
It may be possible that the NT marketing team is simply looking for new blood to showcase. Giving the everyday user a voice.

Much of the shows mentioned in the above ad have been known (to many) for some years now. (I know I know - isn't it about getting NEW users? )

On another note, in some cases, LW may be one of several apps being used. Whatever the case - testimonials do go a long way. Potential New customers could use the encouragement. I look at companies like E-on (Vue) and going to their site from time to time - Industrial Light and Magi always figures in prominently (currently for Indiana Jones IV).

SplineGod
08-30-2008, 11:43 AM
Nobody is slighting anyone. Its simply a matter of showing was is appropriate for a venue that is supposed to help sell your software and convince people (3d artists) that your software is professional.
There are other venues for showing off personal work (like the Dr Seuss stuff). contest winners etc. etc.

I think what they show has more to do with not putting enough time into putting together a decent marketing plan then anything else. Why bother trying to convince people that you have a serious 3d application and then constantly use the least common denominator to show your product?
It feels more like laziness, lack of resources or whatever.If the softeware isnt going to be shown in a way that does appeal to 3d artists then why bother? I cant tell you how many times Ive heard both LW and non LW users complain about the newtek demos.
If Newtek can pay someone to demo Dr Seuss characters then they can certainly pay someone to demo something more professional looking. Why sit around waiting for someone to donate something that might be useful when someone can produce something that looks great for money? As I said before its like your demo reel...never show anything that will make you look weak or lacking.

Dexter2999
08-30-2008, 12:47 PM
I agree with alot of what you are saying and I think overall we are on the same page.

YOU aren't slighting anyone. I think some other posters are even if that isn't their intent. They are making broad statements disparaging the work. Rather than keeping the statements specific (and preferably positive) to steer Newtek towards a better marketing model.

And I agree that I would love to see what professionals turn out when paid. But, that doesn't seem to be in the marketing budget. I like some of the interviews they have had like last years NAB. Showing LW in real world environments. People praising not only the software but the user base? I loved it!

If I had any pull at all, the stuff from the "film" page of the LW section would be the FRONT PAGE! YES, show the top notch flashy stuff first, don't make people "browse" for it.

Works, from FIREFLY, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, 300, and IRON MAN will attract more buyers than works from Proton. I don't think he will argue that point either. I agree with the point everyone here is trying to make which is, lure them in with the feature film accomplishments of LW. Once you have their attention, they will say, "what else can it do?" And when they see the cost? Newtek may just have another customer.

I bought your IKBOOST DVDs. While watching them, I thought about the team animation competition at SIGGRAPH. I'd love to see Newtek put a team of ringers together to try to sweep that. You, Dave Jerrard, Tim Albee, who would be a good fourth?

Anyway, I ramble.

SplineGod
08-30-2008, 01:45 PM
Sometimes it seems that Newtek buys into some of the negatism towards LW generated by a few people. It feels like they believe LW is substandard. I may be wrong but it comes across that way. I just know that every siggraph NT seems to be in a rush at the last moments to throw the show together and its just easier to do what youve done in previous years. The booth is always the same and the demos are always the same. Most of the time its more preaching to the choir rather then getting new converts.

GraphXs
08-31-2008, 01:53 PM
You should have stayed to watch the demos. They demoed the new hair, new bones, FBX support and showed of the animated GI stuff. They showed some Iron Man shots that were rendered in LW and spoke to the team that did it. I'm sure I missed alot because I wasn't at the booth as much as I would like to be, but this years Siggraph IMO was one of the better ones for Newtek. 9.5 has some great features, and Newtek did a good job of showing them!

I do hope Newtek puts some of the interviews on the web, like they did last year? Well Newtek...

Thomas M.
08-31-2008, 02:10 PM
so where are these demos? where? I want to have a look! i'm suprised that only a few people at fair can watch them, while a big majority at home isn't able to do the same.

shrox
08-31-2008, 03:50 PM
Why not have at least three big screens at the shows, one for demoing and two that constantly run the way cool and big name stuff? Don't run the same thing on the two show reel screens at the same time, at least stagger the start times, but better yet have two different reels that that play at the same time.

SplineGod
08-31-2008, 05:10 PM
The problem with the demos is again Newtek is trying to show features. Feature for feature these are things that have been in other apps for quite awhile now. The problem is that not all these features working at siggraph or now at this point.
Maybe these features are great compared to previous versions of LW but not when compared to other apps including even blender. Right now it seems that these new features have their gotchas and exceptions when using them. I was hoping LW would get a bit more streamlined rather then harder to use. Fur is one thing we use quite a bit on our current project and unfortunately Fiberfx is still crashy and unuseable. The new bones done do much for us since they actually have made the standard rigging process somewhat more complicated. They add nothing significant in terms of animation management which is why we continue to rely heavily upon IKBoost.
What they do need to show are the workflow things in LW that make it great. The last two studios Ive worked at switched over to LW not because of features but because of workflow.

Titus
08-31-2008, 09:12 PM
Maybe these features are great compared to previous versions of LW but not when compared to other apps including even blender.

I agree. Not matter how much I use and appreciate them, I feel embarrased when the shader nodes are shown at the exhibition floor, not because I don't think they are important, they are important and has been a standard for some years, so showing this only exhibits how slow LW is moving, IMO. The cached radiosity demo was cool, though.


Fur is one thing we use quite a bit on our current project and unfortunately Fiberfx is still crashy and unuseable.

For an important test project we switched to Blender for fur since FFX is unstable, something I wasn't aware because I never installed a beta.

P.S. Not every company is perfect. I remember last year at the Autodesk user meeting when they highlighted a new feature, a controller cube usewd to rotate the view. For a moment they forgot the level of knowledge of the software of their audience.

GraphXs
08-31-2008, 10:15 PM
I see your point, but these features are a start to a more complete package. Siggraph is the place to show them off, and if a Maya or Max, or even a Blender user is interested in LW showing off these tools will show that LW is headed in the right direction. One feature they do show when using bones is the fact that weights aren't needed, that is cool compared to Max/Maya and thats been their forever. Joint bones are similar to max/Maya bones, FiberFX is similar to max hair. The LW renderer is the main feature that I'm sure a Max/Maya user wish they had. (Maybe not the maya user so much, because they now have a FPrime type of renderer unless cost is a issue.)

On another note I picked up your IKBoost DVD. It would be nice if Newtek updates it or its updated outside newtek as some plugin, I did like the idea of using it w/or without normal LW bones. On anothe bone topic I do like the fact that joint bones has a easy IK setup much like Max and XSI.

SplineGod
08-31-2008, 11:33 PM
What I like about IKBoost is that its probably the most innovative thing in terms of CA that has come along in a long time.
Now here we are several years later and we get nothing innovative at all but tools that give LW capability that other apps had years ago. I dont how I ever got by without SoftIK...
The edge that LW did have in terms of ease of use, fast workflow etc is being eroded away by apps like Maya. I know other long time LW users who are more and more dropping LW or planning to drop it because they are losing confidence that NT will do anything innovative with LW, provide proper support to the dev team etc. It feels to them that other companies take their 3d products far more seriously. Its an unfortunate cirucumstance that hopefully Newtek can turn around. Remember that perception is everything.

SplineGod
09-01-2008, 12:09 AM
I agree. Not matter how much I use and appreciate them, I feel embarrased when the shader nodes are shown at the exhibition floor, not because I don't think they are important, they are important and has been a standard for some years, so showing this only exhibits how slow LW is moving, IMO. The cached radiosity demo was cool, though.



For an important test project we switched to Blender for fur since FFX is unstable, something I wasn't aware because I never installed a beta.

P.S. Not every company is perfect. I remember last year at the Autodesk user meeting when they highlighted a new feature, a controller cube usewd to rotate the view. For a moment they forgot the level of knowledge of the software of their audience.

Like I said, for LW users its great stuff compared to earlier versions of LW but when demonstrated to non LW users its ho hum. What does impress others in my experience is showing off LWs workflow. While nodal for example, adds considerable power to LW it does so at the cost of what has always been a core strength of LW: to get things done quickly. There needs to be as much focus put on making sure that new features are implemented in a way that preserves LWs traditional strengths. I know from personal experience that the way to impress non LW users is to demonstrate LWs workflow. If NT continues to focus on demonstrating features that are already old features in other apps and showing off/demoing the cartoony stuff they are going to continue to lose the confidence of its professional userbase. Having less professional people using LW on higher end projects will provide NT with less feedback and thats not good.

Also this traditional that NT has of releasing LW before its ready to be released has got to stop. If a feature isnt up to snuff then dont release the software or release it without that feature. Its embaressing when my employer sees Newteks press about hte new features like Fiberfx only to get pissed off when it does nothing but crash. Ive had this bite me and others several times since the release of LW 8.

CAClark
09-01-2008, 07:08 AM
I understand that more users would like to see more serious models. Then I think more users need to submit serious works.

It's not as simple as that, NT have to want the stuff to show, look at the NT gallery, some nice stuff, but a crap too, which doesn't make sense.

Dexter2999
09-01-2008, 07:27 AM
I think the issue isn't with showing the features, but in how they are shown.

You can show a step where you go to the node editor....you just don't make a big deal of it. You show it as if it were nothing new....because to 3d pro's it isn't anything new. When you are playing catch up, don't make a big deal of your accomplishment.

Because if you brag about something like that it comes off like this "Hey everybody! We are here at SIGGRAPH and we flew in on a PLANE!!!!" Yeah? So? Didn't everyone?

If you demonstrate where you are playing catch up, you just say "now we do this, just like you would in one of the more expensive packages out there."

I get it. What you guys are saying is that the presentations take the wrong tone. Trying to make mountains from molehills.

As for embarassing, eight years ago I went to a demonstration for Combustion. The guy doing the demo crashed the system three times in a row trying to do the same thing. I think after the second crash I would have just moved on to something else. The third crash is when you are done digging the grave and start pulling the dirt in on yourself.

Lude
09-01-2008, 07:58 AM
Allot of companies fall into a more is better way of thinking.

So for something like of gallery it becomes a case of, our gallery has 500 photos it must be great. But it would be much better to have 50 really good photos so that visitors get exposed to the top class stuff quickly rather than wading through 100ís of mediocre images.

As for the winning video it was ok but I liked the other two better and so thought to myself the winning video must have been chosen simple because it had the lw logo in it.

Itís is disappointing, as I to have seen enough Jimmy Neutron style of animation to last a life time. If youíre going to go down that route make it more quirky, do any of you remember the balloons guy that was in a C4D animation that was cool.

jasonwestmas
09-01-2008, 08:04 AM
Has anyone heared the phrase: "LESS IS MORE"? It's true when trying to sell yourself or your company's services.

richcz3
09-01-2008, 11:28 AM
I didn't attend Siggraph this year but I'll venture a guess that on manpower (ratio-wise); NT allocates significantly less to Lightwave than say Autodesk, Maxon and even E-on. By this I mean teams and budgets aren't spread across a wide array of products.

Its a little unnerving to think that those engineering LW would be scrapping for resources in short time to put together a show. Well its time visit other NT product forums here to see what Siggraph vibe those products generated.

4dartist
09-03-2008, 11:28 AM
Our company actually offered nt our animations to use in what ever way they wanted when we visited their building here in TX. Told them they could boast about having lots of NASA's presentations/animations being done by lightwave etc, but they just never asked for anything.

I got the impression from our visit that they were going 110% on improving LW and bringing old code up to spec. Just seems like their main priority was that, and marketing/increasing user base was low on the list at the moment.

Maybe someday they'll feel like they have really made the progress they want, and will be able to resume marketing stuff. I think even chuck who was in charge of marketing was moved to the development side, if i remember right.

I don't really have any problems with that, I mean hey.. more users... better tools.. I know they sort of go hand in hand. but if they felt like the tools was higher priority atm then it probably is.

To think they aren't aware of any of topics in this thread is pretty naive.

faulknermano
09-03-2008, 08:14 PM
Maybe someday they'll feel like they have really made the progress they want, and will be able to resume marketing stuff. I think even chuck who was in charge of marketing was moved to the development side, if i remember right.

there are coders, and there are marketing folks. they can do both at the same time.

richcz3
09-04-2008, 02:01 AM
Got a little email on the 3rd....said something like.....

The new Web site, which is designed to grow and evolve, includes:
* All new LightWave v9.5 content and imagery
* All CSS, multi-browser accessibility (performs the same in every browser)
* Front page animation showcasing compelling LightWave artwork

Theres more but it looks like they are taking the presentation/marketing side allot more serious now.

Julez4001
09-04-2008, 02:50 PM
Yeah got that same email too and was like hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Gallery looks great but it needs some Zbrush/Chaarcters.
Its dominated by architecture and vehciles but they look gorgeous.

Dexter2999
09-04-2008, 04:22 PM
Gallery looks great but it needs some Zbrush/Chaarcters.

Promoting Zbrush isn't their intent. Showing Zbrush images also might imply they were made with LW which would be flat out misleading.

jasonwestmas
09-04-2008, 04:46 PM
I know what you mean Dexter, but that's kind of like saying that because lightwave doesn't have an adequate image editor that photoshop images shouldn't be rendered in LW. Likewise with Displacement map generators like ZB.

Julez4001
09-04-2008, 05:32 PM
Besides all its major competitors have Zbr--..umm displacement-altered high polygon type characters for fim and games.

Cesar Montero
09-06-2008, 03:51 PM
I'll say that if you get work like Ironman (feature), and Sara Chronicles (series)...set that as the standard to attain. Do not show anything else that is of lower quality. This law applies for artist's demo-reels, and actually to get a job and be considered as "professional". Why not do the same for the application itself? Put the best of it. Don't include stuff that doesn't looks as your top, regardless of the love you have for the logo, person, theme, etc

I went to SIGGRAPH this year.
The best was the bike and the story behind it.

Cageman
09-06-2008, 04:25 PM
Promoting Zbrush isn't their intent. Showing Zbrush images also might imply they were made with LW which would be flat out misleading.

Even if they are otherwise rigged/animated/textured/lit and rendered in LW?

...next you are asking for is not to have ANY composited images at all (just PURE LW)... which means that anything related to feature films, such as Ironman, or series, such as Sarah Connor Chronicles or BSG, should NOT, NEVER, EVER be used to promote LW, becuase they are not 100% LW.

Doesn't make sense to me...

Cageman
09-06-2008, 04:41 PM
I'll say that if you get work like Ironman (feature), and Sara Chronicles (series)...set that as the standard to attain. Do not show anything else that is of lower quality. This law applies for artist's demo-reels, and actually to get a job and be considered as "professional". Why not do the same for the application itself? Put the best of it. Don't include stuff that doesn't looks as your top, regardless of the love you have for the logo, person, theme, etc

I went to SIGGRAPH this year.
The best was the bike and the story behind it.

While I understand the logic of your reasoning, you also have to bare in mind that the examples mentioned above are TEAM EFFORTS. A single individual could never do the stuff Zoic or The Embassy did in the same time they did it. Sure, if you can have an income and still work 8 hours / day on your reel for a couple of years, then you'll probably have a KILLER reel. The thing with LW is that it's scalable enough to be used by large teams (under certain criterias) but one of the best features of it is that everything is accessable for a single individual, and that pretty much ALL parts of LW are easy to learn (possibly not as easy to master though).

As a customer of NT, knowing that you'll probably never make it into the animation gallery because you don't have the same manpower or resources a studio has, what kind of signal does that send out? Elitism? No thanks! :tsktsk:

As long as NT presents the material for what it is; A one month competition, mostly involving hobbyists, I see no harm.

Cageman
09-06-2008, 04:47 PM
I forgot to add...

I've seen "professional" work done in LW that is far, far worse than any of the contributions in this contest.

Cesar Montero
09-06-2008, 05:40 PM
While I understand the logic of your reasoning, you also have to bare in mind that the examples mentioned above are TEAM EFFORTS. A single individual could never do the stuff Zoic or The Embassy did in the same time they did it. Sure, if you can have an income and still work 8 hours / day on your reel for a couple of years, then you'll probably have a KILLER reel. The thing with LW is that it's scalable enough to be used by large teams (under certain criterias) but one of the best features of it is that everything is accessable for a single individual, and that pretty much ALL parts of LW are easy to learn (possibly not as easy to master though).

As a customer of NT, knowing that you'll probably never make it into the animation gallery because you don't have the same manpower or resources a studio has, what kind of signal does that send out? Elitism? No thanks! :tsktsk:

As long as NT presents the material for what it is; A one month competition, mostly involving hobbyists, I see no harm.

I was at the show at SIGGRAPH. The organization and attention was very nice. The enthusiasm of the persons was also very nice. Good attention, focused on their job, showcasing the product, helping with questions asked. That was great.

THE CONTEST
I just didn't liked the emphasis on the contest as the main attraction. It was cool to see it once, twice...wait a minute, 3 hours and still there? It felt like a campaign to sell LW as a hobby. That is cool, but is that the current goal of NewTek for LW? Please, if someone can tell me what NewTek is wanting to attain...I'll appreciate it. Then, we can probably judge better their efforts.


SHOW TEAM EFFORTS
And I'm glad you mention the TEAM EFFORTS factor. Indeed, studios that have success are those who behave as TEAMS. So let it be: show team efforts more than individual efforts in LightWave.

SHOW BEST INDIVIDUAL TALENT
And even then, I have seen at different studios guys that have produced the VFX of entire shots ALONE!!! They never get into forums and post work because they have lost their hope on the Marketing Team, but not the application itself. I think this is sad, makes me take a deep breath and look to the floor. I'm trying to figure out ho to get those guys to participate.

Cageman
09-06-2008, 06:49 PM
THE CONTEST
I just didn't liked the emphasis on the contest as the main attraction. It was cool to see it once, twice...wait a minute, 3 hours and still there? It felt like a campaign to sell LW as a hobby. That is cool, but is that the current goal of NewTek for LW? Please, if someone can tell me what NewTek is wanting to attain...I'll appreciate it. Then, we can probably judge better their efforts.



I wasn't at the show, so I really can't tell...

But, was it really the main attraction? Wasn't NTs Iron Man-toy woted as one of the best giveaways on the show? And the fact that they had Mike there to talk about Iron Man, at least to me, indicates that their main attraction would be to see and hear Mike talk about LWs use in Iron Man? At least, the connection between Iron Man and LightWave was quite clear with that toy.

Anyhow, whatever direction NT had at Siggraph, looking at the new LW-page clearly indicates that the more high profile work is getting used in the main marketing. Something I view as very possitive indeed.




SHOW TEAM EFFORTS
And I'm glad you mention the TEAM EFFORTS factor. Indeed, studios that have success are those who behave as TEAMS. So let it be: show team efforts more than individual efforts in LightWave.



Yes... I suggested this in another thread.



SHOW BEST INDIVIDUAL TALENT
And even then, I have seen at different studios guys that have produced the VFX of entire shots ALONE!!! They never get into forums and post work because they have lost their hope on the Marketing Team, but not the application itself. I think this is sad, makes me take a deep breath and look to the floor. I'm trying to figure out ho to get those guys to participate.

Of corse there are very talanted artists who pull off shots by themselves. There are plenty of evidence of that. :) But don't mix up VFX and pure CG, because pure CG will always take so much longer to do, especially if it's going to be good. VFX is, in many cases, alot easier to pull of oneself, because you normaly have a plate which gives you a headstart in terms of look and light and you just tweak the CG until it fits into the plate, not to talk about all the stuff you DON'T have to build or animate yourself. :). Many of the "one-man-shots" that I've seen are in fact pretty basic in terms of complexity and the ammount of CG vs live action in a plate (there are always examples where this is not true and the shot is in fact quite complex on all levels).. But GENERALLY, they aren't that complex (but they do tend to look very photoreal and invisible). :)

It would be cool if NT provided some filmed plates in HD-res so that the community (either in teams or individualy) could do some VFX work. It really doesn't have to be a competition. I certanly don't have access to HD-material, and if things turn out great, NT will end up having some cool stuff to show, and the artist(s) will have something they can put on the showreel. That would be alot of fun actually! :)

Whatever a single individual is able to pull off, it still remains a fact that being a teamplayer is one of the most important aspects of being able to get a job (or keep it). :)

Titus
09-06-2008, 07:19 PM
But, was it really the main attraction? Wasn't NTs Iron Man-toy woted as one of the best giveaways on the show?

Do you have any sources? I bet the best giveaway was the Pixar walking teapot. BTW, I forgot to print my receipt for the toy.



And the fact that they had Mike there to talk about Iron Man, at least to me, indicates that their main attraction would be to see and hear Mike talk about LWs use in Iron Man? At least, the connection between Iron Man and LightWave was quite clear with that toy.

Not trying to beating the horse. I think they did a better job this time compared to previous years but wasn't good enough, competition is tough. This year half SIGGRAPH (technical program and exhibition) was devoted to stereoscopic 3-D, something LW has since version 6 so why not take advantage of this?

SplineGod
09-06-2008, 07:43 PM
Bottom line is siggraph is a show to convince ppl that your product can produce professional results. You do this by showing off professional looking end results and doing demos with professional looking models with professional looking results.
Avoid showing anything off that makes the product look weak.
Avoid focusing on *FEATURES* which may be new to LW but old compared to other apps.
They need to focus on workflow...what it is about LW that allows artists to get things done quickly and at a high quality.
Newtek needs to use people who actually have production experience doing their demos. They also need people with production experience to demo aspects of LW that theyre strong at... for example arch viz, organic modeling. Characters, VFX etc.
Get away from the cartoony stuff and student work.
They need to avoid picking people to do live demonstrations who cant demo the software in its best light. Someone may have a good art background but cant demo the software to save their life.
I also agree with Titus...some aspects of LW may be old to US but are still NEW to someone who doesnt know LW.

Tom2007
09-06-2008, 11:33 PM
First, I liked the winning animation. It showed some nice animation and design elements.

However, I don't think these contest entries make for the best marketing. I think NewTek, especially at a place like Siggraph, needs to find the highest profile professional projects that used Lightwave and get the word out about that kind of work.

A contest like this is a fun thing for NewTek to sponsor for their customers.

Maybe next time they should have several specific categories, such as Architecture, Visual Effects, Character etc, so they get more variety.

Also, I'm guessing that the contest did not get as much entries from higher profile artists because the prize was a copy of Lightwave? A cash prize would of been cool, or, even better why not make the prize some other NewTek product, like a Tricaster, or VT5, that would of motivated more people?

Cesar Montero
09-07-2008, 12:21 AM
I wasn't at the show, so I really can't tell...
But, was it really the main attraction? Wasn't NTs Iron Man-toy woted as one of the best giveaways on the show?


GIVEAWAYS
The giveaways where gone pretty fast. So I can't really tell. As for the most successful giveaways, I was able to notice a continuous flow line of persons at the XSI stand. They gave a bag with freebies, but I don't know what they had inside. The lines got pretty big there. I also saw a big one for Pixar.

The ironman toy was really nice. I was not in time to get one, but they kept one at the back of the LW stand. It was very cute!


And the fact that they had Mike there to talk about Iron Man, at least to me, indicates that their main attraction would be to see and hear Mike talk about LWs use in Iron Man? At least, the connection between Iron Man and LightWave was quite clear with that toy.

If the toys are gone due to their success, the connection is gone for those who arrive at the stand and don't see Ironman figures. Other companies had printed material, TVs showing over and over again those shots, besides the main show. That stuff keeps people thinking "ok, ironman here..lets see in WHAT was this software used for it". LW connection with Ironman was not as clear as with other companies. He did a great job, but the booth needs more of that.


Anyhow, whatever direction NT had at Siggraph, looking at the new LW-page clearly indicates that the more high profile work is getting used in the main marketing. Something I view as very possitive indeed.

NT DIRECTION
YES, the direction is good. That is definitely an applause compared to what LightWave was featuring a 2/3 years ago. But think again...2/3 years ago. It is good, but perhaps not fast enough to compete with the marketing of other companies. The marketing material is out there being produced. You need to take it, and put it on the stand.


pure CG will always take so much longer to do, especially if it's going to be good. VFX is, in many cases, alot easier to pull of oneself, because you normaly have a plate which gives you a headstart in terms of look and light and you just tweak the CG until it fits into the plate, not to talk about all the stuff you DON'T have to build or animate yourself. :).

CG/VFX
Doing CG and VFX is both a demanding job. You can't really say that one takes more time than the other. This is a complete theme on its own.


Many of the "one-man-shots" that I've seen are in fact pretty basic in terms of complexity and the ammount of CG vs live action in a plate (there are always examples where this is not true and the shot is in fact quite complex on all levels).. But GENERALLY, they aren't that complex (but they do tend to look very photoreal and invisible). :)

ONE-MAN-ARMY
All software packages can do those "many easy shots". LW can make those "really difficult shots", but in comparison with other applications that requires big teams, LW can pull these shots by one-man-army guys. This doesn't occur as much as with other packages. So it is my belief that this fact should be exploited as a good competitive advantage by the marketing department. It is being done, but again...more of this is needed!



It would be cool if NT provided some filmed plates in HD-res so that the community (either in teams or individualy) could do some VFX work. It really doesn't have to be a competition. I certanly don't have access to HD-material, and if things turn out great, NT will end up having some cool stuff to show, and the artist(s) will have something they can put on the showreel. That would be alot of fun actually! :)

Very nice idea indeed!


Whatever a single individual is able to pull off, it still remains a fact that being a teamplayer is one of the most important aspects of being able to get a job (or keep it). :)

I agree. There is a main difference in on-man-army guys at forums, and those at companies: Normally, the ones at companies don't have big egos. Having an ego is an impediment for them to evolve, since their supervisors are continually asking for better shots.

Cageman
09-07-2008, 04:05 AM
Do you have any sources? I bet the best giveaway was the Pixar walking teapot. BTW, I forgot to print my receipt for the toy.



I clearly missread the lines under the photo...

http://www.newtek.com/newtek/behind/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album07&id=LightWave_SIG08_06_resize

I don't know why NewTek would state something like that if it wasn't any truth to it?




Not trying to beating the horse. I think they did a better job this time compared to previous years but wasn't good enough, competition is tough. This year half SIGGRAPH (technical program and exhibition) was devoted to stereoscopic 3-D, something LW has since version 6 so why not take advantage of this?

Good question!

Cageman
09-07-2008, 04:29 AM
CG/VFX
Doing CG and VFX is both a demanding job. You can't really say that one takes more time than the other. This is a complete theme on its own.


Well...

I've been working for two years with game-cinematics (both highres and ingame/realtime) and 1.5 years with VFX. My experience so far is that highres cinematics takes alot longer to do, because of all the assets that needs to be built compared to a VFX-shot of, lets say... a terminator walking into a room (where everything except the terminator is filmed).

There are, of course, VFX-shots that has to be 100% CG, and in those cases, I would say that they are equally challenging, but, working with game cinematics, you may be lucky enough to work with fantasy, which allows for things to be stylized in a forgiving way; moving away from 100% photoreal (but still beautyful), meaning that it may be easier to do such shots.

VFX always strive for 100% photorealism, and that can be very challenging if you are doing shots wich are 100% CG, agreed.

Cageman
09-07-2008, 04:39 AM
Bottom line is siggraph is a show to convince ppl that your product can produce professional results. You do this by showing off professional looking end results and doing demos with professional looking models with professional looking results.
Avoid showing anything off that makes the product look weak.
Avoid focusing on *FEATURES* which may be new to LW but old compared to other apps.
They need to focus on workflow...what it is about LW that allows artists to get things done quickly and at a high quality.
Newtek needs to use people who actually have production experience doing their demos. They also need people with production experience to demo aspects of LW that theyre strong at... for example arch viz, organic modeling. Characters, VFX etc.
Get away from the cartoony stuff and student work.
They need to avoid picking people to do live demonstrations who cant demo the software in its best light. Someone may have a good art background but cant demo the software to save their life.
I also agree with Titus...some aspects of LW may be old to US but are still NEW to someone who doesnt know LW.

So, you are saing that Jarrod Davis isn't experienced enough to show things off?

Of the videos I've watched, it clearly shows how easy LW is to get things done VERY fast (at least to a certain level). The workflow in LW is very well demoed with the Material Mixer, Morph and Joints video, and the VFX production example (the motorcycle riders) is probably one of the best demos I've seen from NT (I've never been to siggraph, but I've watched all the sigg-videos that NT has posted since LW8.0).

Generally though, it would be cool if NT could demo more of that stuff.

SplineGod
09-07-2008, 07:56 AM
So, you are saing that Jarrod Davis isn't experienced enough to show things off?

Of the videos I've watched, it clearly shows how easy LW is to get things done VERY fast (at least to a certain level). The workflow in LW is very well demoed with the Material Mixer, Morph and Joints video, and the VFX production example (the motorcycle riders) is probably one of the best demos I've seen from NT (I've never been to siggraph, but I've watched all the sigg-videos that NT has posted since LW8.0).

Generally though, it would be cool if NT could demo more of that stuff.

Every single of those features they demoed didnt IMO show anything in terms of functionalty or workflow that
was in any way better then other apps. Most apps can perform most of those functions at least as quick as in LW or
are more evolved.
Ive known Jarrod for years and have worked with him before as well.Sure Jarrod is experienced enough to show of aspects of LW hes experienced with. Im sure he would be the first to admit there are aspects he isnt quite as familiar with.
Keep in mind that watching videos from siggraph isnt the same as attending siggraph. Few if any professionals LW users had anything positive to say about the demos or the party. Ive attended siggraph in person for years and one thing thats always been consistent has been the poor demos. This isnt just my opinion but the opinion of others Ive worked with or have attended the show with.
If you read my presivous post, a friend of my wifes went with her husband and were put off by the Dr Suess demo and ended up buying 4 seats of C4d instead of LW because the demo was bad in their opinion. Unfortunately some long time LW users who have used LW on high profile projects have told me recently that they intend to drop LW altogether from their pipelines because after attending the booth and the party, they feel less confident about LW then ever before. Its a sad situation and something I hope Newtek has the desire to turn around and the means to do it.

jasonwestmas
09-07-2008, 07:57 AM
Jarrod Davis did a very good job. Some of those shots are very impressive and the techniques he showed were fast and effective showing that powerful side of lightwave as well even if the shot wasn't complete yet.

Some of the other stuff I saw was kind of embarrasing though.
From what I saw of the the FFX stuff, it was a joke. There is so much more that can and will be done with FFX.

Cageman
09-07-2008, 09:04 AM
Unfortunately some long time LW users who have used LW on high profile projects have told me recently that they intend to drop LW altogether from their pipelines because after attending the booth and the party, they feel less confident about LW then ever before. Its a sad situation and something I hope Newtek has the desire to turn around and the means to do it.

What!? THAT doesn't make sense... at ALL!

If a pro who have used LW for years and been able to pull out crazy things, he must up right be STUPID if he, suddenly, disbelieves the abillities of an application he have used for years!? I have to say, that tells me WAY more about him than about LW or NT...

As far as I'm concerned, they could show Teletubbies in OGL and rave about how good Teletubbies is, I still KNOW that LW is way, way more capable than that, and will happily continue to use it...

TRUE... NEW customers will probably be sparse... but people with some serious skills with LW (wether it be in a multiapp pipe or just LW) will probably just continue to use it and show the world that LW is more than just Teletubbies...

Gees... some people are just... over the top... STUPID! *LOL* :)

Cageman
09-07-2008, 09:15 AM
Ive known Jarrod for years and have worked with him before as well.Sure Jarrod is experienced enough to show of aspects of LW hes experienced with. Im sure he would be the first to admit there are aspects he isnt quite as familiar with.

Well...sure... if you ask around, I guess everyone will say they have areas where they aren't as familiar with as other areas...

You make it sound like you don't have areas where you lack some knowledge?

SplineGod
09-07-2008, 09:22 AM
It makes perfect sense. If you invest a lot of time and money into an application you also want to feel like the company is REALLY behind it, is heading in a good direction, will be able to stay competive with other applications, will provide LW developers with proper resources and will properly market the software.
Many of the professionals I know and work with that use LW dont feel confident towards Newtek regarding these areas. Also many non LW users that see the demos are unimpressed. This makes it harder to sell someplae on using LW in a pipeline. Ive personally run into this myself. I was able to sell the studio Im currently at on LW. The owner has seen the feature list for 9.5 and wants us to use Fiberfx instead of Sasquatch. Unfortunately Ive had to tell him that we cant because FFX still isnt up to snuff when compared to Sasquatch and crashes constantly. He doesnt understand why Newtek would release a product at Siggraph that doesnt work.
Unfortunately Newtek has a history of releasing or announcing versions of LW before they are even close to being ready. Many people see this as a continuing bad thing.

Cageman
09-07-2008, 09:26 AM
Every single of those features they demoed didnt IMO show anything in terms of functionalty or workflow that
was in any way better then other apps. Most apps can perform most of those functions at least as quick as in LW or
are more evolved.

As far as I know, the vertexmap implementation in LW is quite unique and can be used in all sorts of ways. If you are going to do similar things in Maya, you can't just paint a weightmap and then reuse it for whatever purpose (be it dynamics, boneweights or as alphachannels for various things related to shading, displacements, dynamics or bonedeformation). ITS SIMPLE! Very well thought out feature!

Of what I've seen, only XSI have a similar approach on how do define and use weightmaps. So, your argument that non of the videos show any good workflows are just... crazy...

:)

SplineGod
09-07-2008, 09:29 AM
Well...sure... if you ask around, I guess everyone will say they have areas where they aren't as familiar with as other areas...

You make it sound like you don't have areas where you lack some knowledge?

Where did I imply anything? I do know that I can demo LW good enough to get the last 2 studios and other places to buy it. Its kept me employed and sold seats for Newtek.
Keep in mind that the things Ive brought up are issues others have said to me directly about LW and Newtek. It wouldnt be doing anyone any favors to try and whitewash over things like this. Also the last thing I need is to be embaressed by recommending LW/Newtek to someone only to have them come back to me with these issues.

Again, keep in mind that Siggraph lasts for days. THe videos Newtek has posted are highlights. Others have posted
here or have mentioned to me how weak the show was etc etc. I also get concerned when someone goes by the Newtek booth, sees another Dr Seuss demo, is convinced LW is crap and buys a competing product instead.

Titus
09-07-2008, 09:41 AM
I clearly missread the lines under the photo...

http://www.newtek.com/newtek/behind/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album07&id=LightWave_SIG08_06_resize

I don't know why NewTek would state something like that if it wasn't any truth to it?

I don't know, self promotion?

You could see long (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_acuGcJg5tJ0/RtMgFHK9W9I/AAAAAAAACTQ/j_8lDfZQO2M/IMG_1196.jpg) lines everywere (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1264/1140015121_43d8ee0b54.jpg?v=0) because people loves swag, we pay a lot of money to attend a convention so a good show and a small gift makes us feel it was worthwhile. You can see also people getting back in the same line again and again to collect as much free stuff they can get, it's almost ridiculous.

SplineGod
09-07-2008, 09:41 AM
As far as I know, the vertexmap implementation in LW is quite unique and can be used in all sorts of ways. If you are going to do similar things in Maya, you can't just paint a weightmap and then reuse it for whatever purpose (be it dynamics, boneweights or as alphachannels for various things related to shading, displacements, dynamics or bonedeformation). ITS SIMPLE! Very well thought out feature!

Of what I've seen, only XSI have a similar approach on how do define and use weightmaps. So, your argument that non of the videos show any good workflows are just... crazy...

:)

As far as VMaps go youre preaching to the choir here. Im extremely familiar with the various things Vmaps can do in LW and have used them, among other things, to convince others that LW does have some powerful tools.
When I was working at Warner Bros the things I was doing with Vmaps blew away the VP of feature animation. Ive also have deone demos at the LAUser group where one of the senior developers attended and she told me that she had no idea LW could do these things. Ive even had Jay tell me that some of the same things I showed him would be very difficult to do in other apps. On that issue we agree.
The problem is that Ive attended almost every siggraph going back several years. Ive NEVER seen things like this ever demoed by Newtek until maybe very recently. Even when they do such demos its few and far between and the rest of the time its bad to mediocre demos. When someone drops by the booth the chances are that theyll see the more mediocre demos then the good ones.

Along the lines of what Titus mentioned...ppl line up for free ANYTHING at siggraph.
Again its the difference between actually attending Siggraph vs watching the highlight videos.

Julez4001
09-07-2008, 09:49 AM
Where can you find some videos, examples or info on using LW's vmap in special ways that no other app can do.

Cageman
09-07-2008, 10:02 AM
Where did I imply anything? I do know that I can demo LW good enough to get the last 2 studios and other places to buy it. Its kept me employed and sold seats for Newtek.

Well, your response to wether or not you think Jarrod is capable to show off LightWave, you just had to bring up the fact that there are areas where he isn't as good. Did he demo anything he wasn't proficient with?

And now you keep on doing it... YOU have sold licenses for NT and been able to demo LW for studios so that they'll use it instead of other apps...

THAT "bragging" does imply that you think that you would be the better of the two... no? Why would you otherwise even mention this?



Keep in mind that the things Ive brought up are issues others have said to me directly about LW and Newtek. It wouldnt be doing anyone any favors to try and whitewash over things like this. Also the last thing I need is to be embaressed by recommending LW/Newtek to someone only to have them come back to me with these issues.

I usually do NOT recomend LW to anyone new to this biz. I can talk all day long about why I keep LW close when working in a Maya pipeline, but the fact is... LW is NOT for everyone. The harsh reality is that the majority of people learn either Maya or Max and then stick to those. Very few people have the patience to learn a new app, especially if they can't see how, in this case, LW would be beneficial for them. And trust me when I say that I found some stuff as late as LW9.5 that proved LW to be THE solution to displacement issues in Maya/MR combo (still rendering in Maya though).

How the hell do you show and teach things like that? You need to be proficient enough in both apps and have alot of experience using them, both in their own specific pipelines as well as in a combined pipeline. THAT stuff comes from experience.




Again, keep in mind that Siggraph lasts for days. THe videos Newtek has posted are highlights. Others have posted
here or have mentioned to me how weak the show was etc etc. I also get concerned when someone goes by the Newtek booth, sees another Dr Seuss demo, is convinced LW is crap and buys a competing product instead.

Sure...

As if that person somehow think he is going to be able to make the next Transformers by himself... lets face it... such individuals are outside this market within a year anyway...

Individuals who takes time to evaluate applications througly are the ones to listen to.

Sure, I do agree with you that NT can make things more interresting by showing more things in the lines of that motorcycle thing, but they also need that kind of content. How many in this very thread have done something to support NewTek with such highprofile/good quality content? (I and a friend of mine did, but we ain't going to tell anything more about it right now!!) ;)

Cageman
09-07-2008, 10:04 AM
Where can you find some videos, examples or info on using LW's vmap in special ways that no other app can do.


Do this:

Open Maya... paint a weightmap that for the moment has no purpose at all... no...wait.. you can't...

The generic vmap implementation is what I'm talking about...

faulknermano
09-07-2008, 10:09 AM
Where can you find some videos, examples or info on using LW's vmap in special ways that no other app can do.

Julez40001: it would be more beneficial to understand what LW's VMap feature is to see how advantageous it is to other apps (i dont know if other apps have similar implementations, though). the main thing to understand about VMaps is that a value is 'baked' into the vertices of the mesh. these values are then used to drive other effects relating to the mesh. for example, weightmaps: weightmaps are percentages and can be used to fade-in/fade-out surface attributes based on the points' weightmap value. you can use weightmaps to attenuate morph maps, too. there's alot of things you can do with them. i believe the LightWave site has a tutorials section (or the 24hour video section) which tackles specific examples using VMaps.

Cageman
09-07-2008, 10:14 AM
Along the lines of what Titus mentioned...ppl line up for free ANYTHING at siggraph.
Again its the difference between actually attending Siggraph vs watching the highlight videos.

Sure it's different...

One of my fellow collegues went to Siggraph and he was at the NT-booth 3 times and all those times NT was demoing simple things like the symetry tool in Modeler...So, I've heard the bad as well... but he also understand that NT do demo other, more interresting things as well, just that he never wittnessed it. He DOES NOT put off LW just because of some poor demos, because he knows it's very capable. Safe to say is, if he wants to know how do do something more serious in LW, he asks me. :)

Cageman
09-07-2008, 10:32 AM
Julez40001: it would be more beneficial to understand what LW's VMap feature is to see how advantageous it is to other apps (i dont know if other apps have similar implementations, though). the main thing to understand about VMaps is that a value is 'baked' into the vertices of the mesh. these values are then used to drive other effects relating to the mesh. for example, weightmaps: weightmaps are percentages and can be used to fade-in/fade-out surface attributes based on the points' weightmap value. you can use weightmaps to attenuate morph maps, too. there's alot of things you can do with them. i believe the LightWave site has a tutorials section (or the 24hour video section) which tackles specific examples using VMaps.

Thanks for jumping in and explain... My brain in is quite fried now with all this typing going on. *lol* :)

Cesar Montero
09-07-2008, 01:37 PM
I don't know, self promotion?

You could see long (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_acuGcJg5tJ0/RtMgFHK9W9I/AAAAAAAACTQ/j_8lDfZQO2M/IMG_1196.jpg) lines everywere (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1264/1140015121_43d8ee0b54.jpg?v=0) because people loves swag, we pay a lot of money to attend a convention so a good show and a small gift makes us feel it was worthwhile. You can see also people getting back in the same line again and again to collect as much free stuff they can get, it's almost ridiculous.

You are right.
But when you pay a flight, and a hotel stay, you see things more clearly.
Specially when you are interested in your career, and not the freebies.
I agree with what you say.

=)

Cesar Montero
09-07-2008, 01:39 PM
I clearly missread the lines under the photo...

http://www.newtek.com/newtek/behind/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album07&id=LightWave_SIG08_06_resize

I don't know why NewTek would state something like that if it wasn't any truth to it?



Good question!

I was all day at siggraph all the week from Monday to Friday. And that is probably the most crowded it got, perhaps due to the freebies, just for a moment of time. The rest of the time there was at the most 5 persons on that place, while the rest was staff of newtek.

I personally believe that the location of the stand was not good. It was literally in the left-most corner of the convention. It took me a while to find it. I asked around other stands, and they say that if you buy a place, the next year you got better offers to put your stand. So why is NewTek so on the corner, if they have been buying a stand allready for years? Are they shy? What is the reason of choosing a corner?

Cageman
09-07-2008, 02:10 PM
The rest of the time there was at the most 5 persons on that place, while the rest was staff of newtek.



So, you were actually hanging out at the booth ALL time to see that this, in fact, is 100% true? :)



I personally believe that the location of the stand was not good. It was literally in the left-most corner of the convention. It took me a while to find it. I asked around other stands, and they say that if you buy a place, the next year you got better offers to put your stand. So why is NewTek so on the corner, if they have been buying a stand allready for years? Are they shy? What is the reason of choosing a corner?

My educated guess: Save money... :)

LW is probably selling well enough without Siggraph... Word of mouth and constant Emmy Awards is way more valuable than any tradeshow, honestly.

Titus
09-07-2008, 02:19 PM
So, you were actually hanging out at the booth ALL time to see that this, in fact, is 100% true? :)

Yes, I say he described the situation correctly.

Cesar Montero
09-07-2008, 02:29 PM
So, you were actually hanging out at the booth ALL time to see that this, in fact, is 100% true? :)

I gave my turn every 30 mins more or less. I stayed when there was the explanation of Sarah Chronicles and others on Thursday. The rest of the time was William explaining the new fur solution and how to model a toon character. Since I already seen that at the web on his free tutorials, I went away for a while and came back to see if there was someone explaining. I did this because sometimes the screen would say that at 2:30 pm there would be a demo-artists...but there was just William. So my guess is that the schedule was a bit awkward, so I continually came back to see if there where more artist exposing.



My educated guess: Save money... :)
LW is probably selling well enough without Siggraph... Word of mouth and constant Emmy Awards is way more valuable than any tradeshow, honestly.


I didn't went for NewTek, I went for an interview that I allready had scheduled, and it went great. I got hired because of it. I think that SIGGRAPH is great for Networking, and when you allready have a specified schedule.

However, as a LW user, I was perhaps expecting more from the LW booth, the front part: More experienced users, VFX supervisors and such, as with other booths (for networking). But lets not forget the back of the booth was full of enthusiasm by the demo-artists, can't complain about that!

Cesar Montero
09-07-2008, 06:08 PM
Ironman figure!
Too bad I was late to get one

SplineGod
09-07-2008, 06:37 PM
Well, your response to wether or not you think Jarrod is capable to show off LightWave, you just had to bring up the fact that there are areas where he isn't as good. Did he demo anything he wasn't proficient with?

And now you keep on doing it... YOU have sold licenses for NT and been able to demo LW for studios so that they'll use it instead of other apps...

THAT "bragging" does imply that you think that you would be the better of the two... no? Why would you otherwise even mention this?



I usually do NOT recomend LW to anyone new to this biz. I can talk all day long about why I keep LW close when working in a Maya pipeline, but the fact is... LW is NOT for everyone. The harsh reality is that the majority of people learn either Maya or Max and then stick to those. Very few people have the patience to learn a new app, especially if they can't see how, in this case, LW would be beneficial for them. And trust me when I say that I found some stuff as late as LW9.5 that proved LW to be THE solution to displacement issues in Maya/MR combo (still rendering in Maya though).

How the hell do you show and teach things like that? You need to be proficient enough in both apps and have alot of experience using them, both in their own specific pipelines as well as in a combined pipeline. THAT stuff comes from experience.



Sure...

As if that person somehow think he is going to be able to make the next Transformers by himself... lets face it... such individuals are outside this market within a year anyway...

Individuals who takes time to evaluate applications througly are the ones to listen to.

Sure, I do agree with you that NT can make things more interresting by showing more things in the lines of that motorcycle thing, but they also need that kind of content. How many in this very thread have done something to support NewTek with such highprofile/good quality content? (I and a friend of mine did, but we ain't going to tell anything more about it right now!!) ;)

NOTHING I said was in any way shape or form directed at or about Jarrods abilities when it comes to using or demoing LW. Im sure he did a good job but unfortunately he cant be cloned.

I bring up the fact that Ive convinced several places to go with LW simply because I didnt feel that its that difficult to do IF and I say IF LW is PROPERLY demonstrated. I didnt do anything special other then show the workflow aspects that I know from experience make it a powerful tool. I think this is a fundamental problem that Newtek has had for a long time...having professionals with lots of experience demoing LW vs those with little professional experience demoing LW. Jarrod was recently hired back by Newtek which is a good thing. As I stated before, hes only one person.
What Im concerned about and what other professionals who live and work out here are concerned about is that in general the demos are bad. Newtek seems to be more interested in making the software appear less capable then it is. Again, these are things others have complained to me about and most are long time users of LW. Many feel that Newtek, intentionally or unintentionally is making LW more of a hobbyist app then a professional one. Ive heard them say that it doesnt matter how good LW is when Newtek seems to do its best to show it off in its worst light.

Other non LW users have come away with the feeling that LW isnt up to doing professional work.

Ive shown hardcore Maya and Max users including my current and past employers just what LW can do and how it does it. My last employer decided to go with LW even though hes even written books on Max. My current employer has always been accustomed to using Max/Maya as well. My point in bringing this up is that you would think Newtek would be interested in what it is that convinced these places to switch and make it a point to demo those aspects of LW.

faulknermano
09-07-2008, 08:36 PM
I didn't went for NewTek, I went for an interview that I allready had scheduled, and it went great. I got hired because of it.


hey cool! congrats! i'd find that a gratifying experience, especially in siggraph (where i've personally never had the opportunity to go to).

Cesar Montero
09-07-2008, 11:09 PM
hey cool! congrats! i'd find that a gratifying experience, especially in siggraph (where i've personally never had the opportunity to go to).

Thank you!

Cageman
09-07-2008, 11:46 PM
I gave my turn every 30 mins more or less. I stayed when there was the explanation of Sarah Chronicles and others on Thursday. The rest of the time was William explaining the new fur solution and how to model a toon character. Since I already seen that at the web on his free tutorials, I went away for a while and came back to see if there was someone explaining. I did this because sometimes the screen would say that at 2:30 pm there would be a demo-artists...but there was just William. So my guess is that the schedule was a bit awkward, so I continually came back to see if there where more artist exposing.



Ok... few and far between the meaty stuff... :/

Last time, they had a whole slew of interviews with artists working with LW. Appart from Mike talking about Iron Man, there were no other such interviews on stage?




I didn't went for NewTek, I went for an interview that I allready had scheduled, and it went great. I got hired because of it. I think that SIGGRAPH is great for Networking, and when you allready have a specified schedule.

Hey...THAT's nice! :) Congrats! :thumbsup:

May I ask where you ended up getting a job?



However, as a LW user, I was perhaps expecting more from the LW booth, the front part: More experienced users, VFX supervisors and such, as with other booths (for networking). But lets not forget the back of the booth was full of enthusiasm by the demo-artists, can't complain about that!

One thing that I can think of when it comes to lack of more experienced users demoing stuff is that they really don't want to share their trade secrets just like that?

jasonwestmas
09-08-2008, 07:48 AM
One thing that I can think of when it comes to lack of more experienced users demoing stuff is that they really don't want to share their trade secrets just like that?

My response to anyone who thinks that is a good idea:

Unless there is a legal obligation that's a lame reason not to share what one knows. It hurts the industry imo, never the less it does happen. Keeping the order and value of pressing mere buttons in the dark will never replace good design, dedication and imagination anyway, so people can relax about their trade secrets.

Cesar Montero
09-08-2008, 10:51 AM
Ok... few and far between the meaty stuff... :/
Last time, they had a whole slew of interviews with artists working with LW. Appart from Mike talking about Iron Man, there were no other such interviews on stage?

I was not able to see Mike presenting Ironman, just saw him at the end of one presentation and said hi to him. He was in a rush, and had to leave. On Friday or Thursday ( can't remember) he was scheduled to present, but Doug told me he would not be able to make it for the second presentation. I also asked if there was a printed paper showing the schedule on the screens. But there was not.

As for others, I was able to see Steve Graves and another college of him presenting Sara Chronicles shots. That was interesting and fun! It lasted for an hour or so I think.

Then there was another guy I can't remember his name right out off my head, but he showed a lot of work for some TV commercial shots. That was interesting too.

But I think the best part was the motorcycle explanation. A guy explained how the motorcycle at the show was in fact first modeled in LW. A company saw it and wanted to produce it. So they did. Now, some persons later on came by and wonder if it was a real motorcycle. There was no podium or note beside the motorcycle showing the story!!! I think this was a big mistake. They should have something explaining this exciting process that was shown in a certain moment of time at the exposition. I was most of the tiime beside the motorcycle when seated, and a couple of persons wondered about it, and left saying out loud "nah, its not for real". Some of them actually smelled the fuel cavity, and knew it was real. But why not have a piece of paper there saying it is, and why it is real?


That was as much as I was able to see. The rest was good old William: He presented FiberFX, and how to apply it to a character, and other basic modeling techniques.



Hey...THAT's nice! :) Congrats! :thumbsup:

May I ask where you ended up getting a job?


Thanks!
I'll prefer to keep it quiet for now until I arrive to my desk at my new job.



One thing that I can think of when it comes to lack of more experienced users demoing stuff is that they really don't want to share their trade secrets just like that?

There are many that want to show them.
I know a VFX consultant for BSG that has asked for it for a long time.
I once saw him do a shot just with LW, and it looked amazing.
He did it in a lap-top, and it was really shocking to see.
So he went instead o present to NVision LW along Fusion.
Would have been great to have him at SIGGRAPH!

I'm not that good, but I volunteer in how to make my setups on site.
That is the reason I do articles and such, and I do them for free for 3dtotal
There are also lots of persons at HDRI magazine willing to do so.
That is why they write for those magazines!

I see also Larry being interested, he makes a living out of it.
So I guess he is good at it.

Also Timothy Albee is a great fan of helping persons.
I'm sure that if they give him a call, he would be willing to present.
His Kaze Ghost Warrior kicks ***, even years later.
He has made tons of books by himself, that proves his desire to help.

I can name a lot of persons willing to present.
We all love LightWave, but want NewTek marketing to be more aggressive.
To show more amazing stuff, and less "lets play a bit with LW" demos.

SplineGod
09-08-2008, 01:22 PM
Theres plenty of people willing to share if asked or given the time to actually prepare. Newtek has months to prepare for Siggraph but they always seem to put it off until the last moments and then end up scrambling for presenters, content etc. What usually ends up happening is we see the same ol basic, dumb downed demos.
Siggraph isnt a show designed to educate people on how to apply basic techniques but to wow them into buying LW. NOTHING at the show should in any way give the impression that LW is weak, or that the presenter is weak because it implies that Newtek doesnt care enough about their own product to put the effort into making everything look well thought out and professional.

Cesar Montero
09-08-2008, 03:06 PM
Theres plenty of people willing to share if asked or given the time to actually prepare. Newtek has months to prepare for Siggraph but they always seem to put it off until the last moments and then end up scrambling for presenters, content etc. What usually ends up happening is we see the same ol basic, dumb downed demos.
Siggraph isnt a show designed to educate people on how to apply basic techniques but to wow them into buying LW. NOTHING at the show should in any way give the impression that LW is weak, or that the presenter is weak because it implies that Newtek doesnt care enough about their own product to put the effort into making everything look well thought out and professional.
I agree...
It seems that NT is working harder since the past show.
I was not there, just in this last one.
So I can only judge the latest show.
But we need more of that guys!

Let me add more to it:

It would be good to see MORE professionals, AND STUDIOS presenting. Such was the case of The Embassy and Zoic this year. It would be great to have more, and JUST have them on the FRONT. Turn on the motorcycle, make it sound so they know its for real (or at least a paper saying about it). Have a PRINTED LIST of presenters during the week, so persons can make their schedules. Pamper presenters on the back so that fans and interested persons can talk with them. Perhaps even get some sofas for them to sit down to make some networking, etc. In essence , make the up-comming artists reach the companies/professionals, etc.

For FEATURES you can have the back part of the stand ONLY. Such was the case of the enthusiast demo artist helping with all sorts of questions of the different software packages at the back.

And more of the projects that WON the EMMY AWARDS. A statue is nice to see, but its better to hear how they where won. I think more of that was missing at the show.

gaushell
09-14-2008, 06:47 PM
It would be good to see MORE professionals, AND STUDIOS presenting.
For FEATURES you can have the back part of the stand ONLY.


Newtek knows who the professional companies are that use Lightwave - in all of the various industries - and yet they don't seem to ask us directly to provide anything. I continue to be baffled.

We've offered and offered to help they with marketing by using our work and to help with product development by helping them understand our work-flow.

Falls on deaf ears. Of if they hear they don't care. I completely agree - showcase more professionals.

I know I'm bragging a bit here, but crap, we do pretty decent arch viz and real estate marketing work all over the country - and for 16 years with Lightwave!

There are plenty of professionals here with nice work to show off. They need to quit using marginal work for anything and they need to utilize more spokespeople that are real world users.

Cesar Montero
09-14-2008, 07:42 PM
Newtek knows who the professional companies are that use Lightwave - in all of the various industries - and yet they don't seem to ask us directly to provide anything. I continue to be baffled.

We've offered and offered to help they with marketing by using our work and to help with product development by helping them understand our work-flow.

Falls on deaf ears. Of if they hear they don't care. I completely agree - showcase more professionals.

I know I'm bragging a bit here, but crap, we do pretty decent arch viz and real estate marketing work all over the country - and for 16 years with Lightwave!

There are plenty of professionals here with nice work to show off. They need to quit using marginal work for anything and they need to utilize more spokespeople that are real world users.

Hey, you are right! You got pretty amazing work. And I know it all because you share it with us at spinquad.com, and here as well. The vids are quite nicely done, in case they look for animated work! Cityscape also nice vids, and I could imagine both you and their work being put together...

Even the personal galleries of persons like Otacon ( who works for you ) is pretty beyond what I have seen on not only the NewTek booth, but also other software booths. So there you go! And as for stills of same quality, Thomas Mangoloid aka "Pancho" has been in several books and interviews. And that is for the real world as well. You can really name tons of artists who can showcase work that is way beyond.

Mike_RB
09-15-2008, 11:52 PM
vmap demos should use 2 different film rez character heads, show they both have embedded morphs and UV's. Do editing by adding details to them to show that the morphs and UV stay intact. Then delete the mouth of one and paste the mouth of the other into the object, scale and fit it in place and weld the verts and show the morphs still work.

faulknermano
09-16-2008, 12:02 AM
great example: alot of us here, i'm sure, leverage the vmap tech more or less in that way, and on a regular basis, and yet it takes something else to spot that particular example to demo the workflow that impresses people who dont use LW.

Surrealist.
09-16-2008, 05:02 AM
What is making me chuckle right now is when you think about it, the Energizer Bunny was also, technically, a robot. :D

beverins
09-17-2008, 12:46 PM
I think the entire demo problem stems from the assumption that the Video Side of Newtek runs the show. They know NAB, but they don't know Siggraph. Maybe they USED to, but that was the early 90's.. and they seem stuck in that vein.

I know I mention this each and every time I talk about Siggraph, but I will STILL never forget the otherwise awesome Don Ballance trying to Demo 3DArsenal to a Siggraph audience back in Boston in 2006. I have nothing against him, if he's reading this - I'm not blaming him... I know he was just reciting his well-heeled script, probably given to him by the Video Marketers at Newtek..., but still...

I shall never forget the complete irony of that day sitting in the audience when he said - loud as can be into the mic - "Do you find 3D HARD? I sure do!". As he said this, I glanced over to the visible XSI booth where they are demoing Facerobot and programming an AI.... I wanted soooo much to go up there and demo Lightwave myself.

I think within 1 minute, out of 25 people sitting there at the Newtek booth, 23 left after he said those immortal words. The remaining people - me included - were just sitting there HOPING he would do something COOL. But it was not to be.

SplineGod
09-17-2008, 12:57 PM
I wanted soooo much to go up there and demo Lightwave myself.


Thats a feeling I know quite well. :)

Infinite
11-15-2008, 12:08 PM
Newtek knows who the professional companies are that use Lightwave - in all of the various industries - and yet they don't seem to ask us directly to provide anything. I continue to be baffled.

We've offered and offered to help they with marketing by using our work and to help with product development by helping them understand our work-flow.

Falls on deaf ears. Of if they hear they don't care. I completely agree - showcase more professionals.

There are plenty of professionals here with nice work to show off. They need to quit using marginal work for anything and they need to utilize more spokespeople that are real world users.


I couldnt agree with you more. Newtek need to engage more with their users and showcase what LW is really capable of!

Julez4001
11-15-2008, 12:48 PM
Currently a winter contest on SpinQuad (prizes Silo, website hosting for a year, and Kray renderer) however SteamPunk Challenge on CGTalk is 1000x better in the prize arena that includes plenty of Hardware..hmmm Newtek isn't a sponsor again...everyone else (including ex LW : Modo).

SplineGod
11-15-2008, 07:00 PM
At least we know theyre consistent and what to expect. :)
Speaking of which... Heres a shot from season 2 of Untamed, Uncut on Animal Planet. I managed to get fiberfx to work long enough to get decent results that the client was happy with. FFX has alot of potential but still has a long ways to go stabilitywise.
Everything in this shot ; modeling, aquiring assets, texturing, lighting, fur, vfx, rendering and animation were done in under 2 days.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/anims/kitten.wmv
We also used the PLK plugin to import many of the assets and used IKBoost to animate with.

jasonwestmas
11-15-2008, 07:32 PM
Awww poor kitty :(

mav3rick
11-18-2008, 11:34 AM
hmmm anim looks very generic

SplineGod
11-19-2008, 12:42 AM
Its not too bad when you have two days or less to get everything done from assets to textures to animating and rendering using one of the most flakey 3d apps on the planet. :)

JBT27
11-19-2008, 02:39 AM
Yeah, poor kitty.....I assume it was rescued at massive expense (quite right too :)).....?

I'd say it looks OK - as you say, two days turnaround for everything, though was the kitten made or bought? With that deadline I'd buy one!!

Julian.

Cageman
11-19-2008, 06:47 AM
Its not too bad when you have two days or less to get everything done from assets to textures to animating and rendering using one of the most flakey 3d apps on the planet. :)

How come you guys have such tight deadlines? Doesn't Animal Planet want to pay little more to give you guys some time to do things properly? Where is the pride in rushing things out that doesn't look that good? Sure you earn your living, but I think that productions like this adds to the bad stigma LW has.

I'm not trying to put you guys down, you certanly get things out the door quickly, and I'm quite sure that if you could have a week for a shot like that it would probably look alot better and alot more professional. But as an artist with some pride of what I do, I couldn't stomach having to do jobs that fast when the quality has to go under a certain level.

SplineGod
11-19-2008, 09:04 AM
The client sets the schedule. They also have a great deal of things they have to do. They have to find the footage, locate the owner of the footage, secure permission, but it, edit it etc etc then we have to add our CGI to it and so forth. Its not simple for them and not for us.
LW worked fantastically for us last season. Weve been told that the show is one of the most top rated shows on Animal Planet and LW made it possible. Thats why were using it instead of Maya, Max etc. The studio Im working for was mainly a Max house before this series. We were greenlighted for a 2nd season which were working on now and have been greenlighted for a 3rd season with talks about a 4th. LW didnt have a stigma here unti Newtek knowingly released 9.5 in such a sorry state. Working with LW in its current state is and has been an extremely painful proposition.

What we produce is what the client wanted and approved. What we did caused a chain reaction of events leading to them sending us paychecks....mission accomplished. :)

JBT,
They actually get him out with a sewer vacuum! :)
We aquire as many assets as we can beforehand. Weve been using a plugin called PLK to aquire and covert pose/daz assets and its been a huge timesaver. The other big timesaver has been IKBoost.

The Dommo
11-19-2008, 12:28 PM
gotta love IKBoost

JBT27
11-19-2008, 12:36 PM
The client sets the schedule. They also have a great deal of things they have to do. They have to find the footage, locate the owner of the footage, secure permission, but it, edit it etc etc then we have to add our CGI to it and so forth. Its not simple for them and not for us.
LW worked fantastically for us last season. Weve been told that the show is one of the most top rated shows on Animal Planet and LW made it possible. Thats why were using it instead of Maya, Max etc. The studio Im working for was mainly a Max house before this series. We were greenlighted for a 2nd season which were working on now and have been greenlighted for a 3rd season with talks about a 4th. LW didnt have a stigma here unti Newtek knowingly released 9.5 in such a sorry state. Working with LW in its current state is and has been an extremely painful proposition.

What we produce is what the client wanted and approved. What we did caused a chain reaction of events leading to them sending us paychecks....mission accomplished. :)

JBT,
They actually get him out with a sewer vacuum! :)
We aquire as many assets as we can beforehand. Weve been using a plugin called PLK to aquire and covert pose/daz assets and its been a huge timesaver. The other big timesaver has been IKBoost.

Ah, that's alright then :) Sewer vacuum indeed!.....well, whatever works I guess :D

All the pain and grief aside of hitting these problems, it's obviously a success, and presumably your further work on the show is secured?

That said, and having been in the thick of short-deadline shows, though not this tight, I have to agree with Cageman's sentiment, I guess as much for a philosophical point as anything.

There are shows which use a stylised cgi which you know would not have been as complex as a realistic attempt and must be great for short deadlines (providing the client is OK with stylised), and others which go for realism but fall badly short, because no matter how good the intentions most often you just cannot turn out supreme shots in hours with one or two people.....the one thing that nags me about these jobs is that you cannot actually stand up and say "Well, sure, it doesn't look great, but do you realise the hell we had to go through to get even that done?" That's the key, you either step away from jobs that have the potential for that, or you earn the money from them as best you can, and later deliberately step away from it for more artistic endeavours.

Tough call, especially in tough times! This particular shot works well for what it is and I expect most viewers accept it for what it is, a kitten in big trouble. I seriously doubt more than a handful will critique the cgi quality.

I watched the 'Axemen' series on The History Channel, and that had alot of what looked like rudimentary cgi. But it worked great - did the job and told the story.

Julian.

jasonwestmas
11-19-2008, 02:33 PM
Well yeah, you do what the client wants and you do what you can with tight deadlines, sounds like a bread and butter piece, nuff said! A cg person can't always make that piece of work worthy for their Dream portfolio and earn money at the same time.

shrox
11-19-2008, 03:42 PM
Speaking of Animal Planet, anybody else watch the Puppy Bowl instead of the Super Bowl? I do, the Kitty Halftime is great!

Still looking for work. My main computer died over the weekend. I took it out of storage, set it up in the motel room, started it up and it stuck on the HP bios splash page. No beeps or nothing, just the DOS style HP logo. At least it's under warranty, but it will take 10 to 12 business days...

SplineGod
11-20-2008, 08:42 AM
Well yeah, you do what the client wants and you do what you can with tight deadlines, sounds like a bread and butter piece, nuff said! A cg person can't always make that piece of work worthy for their Dream portfolio and earn money at the same time.

its on the #1 show on Animal Planet, its what the client wants and I get a paycheck. :)

Dexter2999
11-20-2008, 10:05 AM
Speaking of Animal Planet, anybody else watch the Puppy Bowl instead of the Super Bowl? I do, the Kitty Halftime is great!

Still looking for work. My main computer died over the weekend. I took it out of storage, set it up in the motel room, started it up and it stuck on the HP bios splash page. No beeps or nothing, just the DOS style HP logo. At least it's under warranty, but it will take 10 to 12 business days...

Had a similar thing not too long ago...turned out the battery on the motherboard was dead. Swapped it out an all was well.

mav3rick
11-20-2008, 10:26 AM
Its not too bad when you have two days or less to get everything done from assets to textures to animating and rendering using one of the most flakey 3d apps on the planet. :)

huh spline have you ever consider moving on other app.... lately i can hear everything but good words from you about lightwave

Dexter2999
11-20-2008, 05:02 PM
its on the #1 show on Animal Planet, its what the client wants and I get a paycheck. :)


You are happy.
The client is happy.
The network is happy.
The general public is happy.

The only ones to shrug are the other 3D artists. And until they try to meet a two day deadline I don't think they have a true appreciation of what you are doing. They are mentaly making a comparison of your two day project to something that may have taken longer and therefor has a higher standard of quality.

Time, cost, quality. Pick two.

Larry's people have chosen time and cost. The quality is good enough for the general public and they are making money off selling the show.

It's not like they are trying to crank out an episode of HAPPY FEET every week.

I was wondering as an update if your employer has given any thought to rolling back the software to 9.3.1?

jasonwestmas
11-20-2008, 05:18 PM
its on the #1 show on Animal Planet, its what the client wants and I get a paycheck. :)

Oh I know, it's good work considering the conditions you were under. I felt something for the cat so I guess you accomplished your mission in more ways than one. :D

SplineGod
11-20-2008, 11:13 PM
huh spline have you ever consider moving on other app.... lately i can hear everything but good words from you about lightwave

Youll hear good words from me about LW when it ever gets back to a state where it deserves good words. Believe me if I could jump into another app right now I would.

mav3rick
11-21-2008, 02:48 AM
well i sincerely wish you find the way out of this.... for me i am pretty much happy with current state and developing direction of newtek dev team.

SplineGod
11-21-2008, 07:35 AM
Thanks! Me too believe me. :)

Larry_g1s
11-21-2008, 01:28 PM
Not bad, particularly for the turnaround. :) X-Ray stuff looked cool.
I think the area that could have used the most attention was the animation, there didn't seem any weight in the jump.


well i sincerely wish you find the way out of this.... for me i am pretty much happy with current state and developing direction of newtek dev team.here here. People are so fickle. I guess he forgot that he wrote LW was instrumental in even getting the additional season in the first place.

SplineGod
11-22-2008, 02:47 PM
Good animaton takes a lot of time. 2 days is barely enough time to just get the shot setup, lit and rendered let alone get any animation done. If I had to spend time rigging the standard way there would be almost no time left for any animation. As it is I can get the cat rigged and ready to animate in a few minutes or so then focus the time I have left to actually animate. The whole shot is 22 seconds in length with a significant portion having to be animated in some way. The problem with FFX also greatly shortened the amount of time spent on animating. Given the constraints, the fact that the client loved it and the fact that I got a paycheck as a result Im pretty happy. :)
Yes LW was instrumental in getting us another season but 9.5 has also almost cost us that 2nd season.

geothefaust
11-22-2008, 02:57 PM
Without too many details for obvious reasons, I'm genuinely curious, but how come you guys don't use 9.5.1 instead?

SplineGod
11-22-2008, 02:59 PM
We were. It just went from broken to bad to worse then back to bad again...etc etc. Every build literally had something new broken or rebroken.

Cageman
11-22-2008, 04:29 PM
We were. It just went from broken to bad to worse then back to bad again...etc etc. Every build literally had something new broken or rebroken.

Maybe you should go back to LW9.3.1 + Sasquatch + IKbooster instead of bickering all over this forum?

Though, make sure NewTek gets some scenes that reproduces the bugs to help them help you.

Larry_g1s
11-22-2008, 04:35 PM
Maybe you should go back to LW9.3.1 + Sasquatch + IKbooster instead of bickering all over this forum?

Though, make sure NewTek gets some scenes that reproduces the bugs to help them help you.Yes, remember 9.5 was a free upgrade, it wasn't mandatory nor paid for.

Larry_g1s
11-22-2008, 04:42 PM
Good animaton takes a lot of time. 2 days is barely enough time to just get the shot setup, lit and rendered let alone get any animation done. If I had to spend time rigging the standard way there would be almost no time left for any animation. As it is I can get the cat rigged and ready to animate in a few minutes or so then focus the time I have left to actually animate. The whole shot is 22 seconds in length with a significant portion having to be animated in some way. The problem with FFX also greatly shortened the amount of time spent on animating. Given the constraints, the fact that the client loved it and the fact that I got a paycheck as a result Im pretty happy. :)
Yes LW was instrumental in getting us another season but 9.5 has also almost cost us that 2nd season.I said it wasn't bad at all, particularly with the deadline...I understand that. I was just saying the area that could be improved, albeit with a lengthier deadline, would have been the jump. :)

John Jordan
11-22-2008, 06:34 PM
Yes, remember 9.5 was a free upgrade, it wasn't mandatory nor paid for.

No, but surely it's fair to expect upgrades to be improvements and not degradations in the app, right? Otherwise, what's the point?

I know, I know...it's all going to get ironed out in 10...or maybe 11.

Larry_g1s
11-22-2008, 07:01 PM
No, but surely it's fair to expect upgrades to be improvements and not degradations in the app, right? Otherwise, what's the point?

I know, I know...it's all going to get ironed out in 10...or maybe 11.I guess it's all one's perspective, because I don't think it is a degradation. I just finished using it in production and welcomed some of the new tools, particularly the ability to cache radiosity for animations.

The point is still, if 9.3.1 got them a 2nd season, no one is forcing an upgrade to 9.5. It was free and not mandatory.

SplineGod
11-23-2008, 12:44 AM
Its lame that somehow a few people here think that its ok for Newtek to release software that they certified was ready for production with a lot of fanfare but knew many parts were outright broken and somehow feel its the customers fault. Im not talking about the beta either. We only went with using the beta because we were encouraged to because of the obvious issues with the release version. Now were being chided for following that advice.
Thats simply the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.

How do any of expect Newtek to improve things if everyone simply takes it? Its a simple business decision. While yes, this was a free upgrade but as a longtime customer of Newtek who has literally spent thousands of dollars on LW and have greatly supported them I do expect a certain level of support and professionalism. Others should to.