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roger1972
08-15-2008, 01:06 AM
This is what should been into LW

http://www.icubeviz.com/services/VRayScatter/

roger1972
08-15-2008, 01:49 AM
Plug-ins for plug-ins for plug-ins...

Can't you just buy Max + VRay + VRayScatter? :) What'll that cost?

I think that sometimes people are expecting too much from a 699 € piece of software, made by a relatively small development team.


I own, Kray/maxwell/fryrender/virtualrender so i only need that plugin... I pay, no problem.
If you're going to earn money, you also have to use money.

roger1972
08-15-2008, 01:59 AM
If LW had a "special" version for 2000 euro that have a lot of soulutions like renderman, instancing fluid sim.. what ever... I gladly pay for that... the same as XSI, one cheap version and one expensive version with more expensive tools...

creacon
08-15-2008, 03:17 AM
If you buy HD instance you could make this example in a few hours, it's not because the website doesn't show the same stuff that it can't produce similar results.

creacon



This is what should been into LW

http://www.icubeviz.com/services/VRayScatter/

roger1972
08-15-2008, 04:24 AM
I subscribe to the idea that you have to pay for the tools you need to make money with. Total agreement there.

If they (NewTek) could deliver all those "high-end" features people ask for, they probably would, and would price their package accordingly.

But they still have limited resources to do development with, in terms of both funds and personal. I don't think they have the resources to deliver all those VRay killer goodies, the simulation goodies, the pyro-explosive goodies, the fluid goodies - Basically all the best (expensive) plug-ins for Max that people keep asking for.

I think you need to buy the software you need *now*.

The only problem with that, is that i can't stand the Max interface and the way that program works. Maybe this is something that trueart could take a look at. We allready have made some animations with Kray instancing with hundreds of trees. and it work in BNR too.. so I just need a easy way to put a lot of trees in layout. and this scatter-plugin looked nice.

Dodgy
08-15-2008, 07:02 AM
What's wrong with HD instance?

roger1972
08-15-2008, 10:53 AM
What's wrong with HD instance?

does not work with Kray

3dworks
08-15-2008, 11:33 AM
does not work with Kray

afaik there has already been a first contact between the developers of hd instance and kray. it just seems not to be the right moment yet (kray is still under development, and LW 9.5 was in beta at that time as well...), but i would not give up all hopes for now ;)

markus

roger1972
08-15-2008, 01:17 PM
afaik there has already been a first contact between the developers of hd instance and kray. it just seems not to be the right moment yet (kray is still under development, and LW 9.5 was in beta at that time as well...), but i would not give up all hopes for now ;)

markus

but when it comes to distribution of trees. bushes and other things that should be in a landscape. Is hd instances good at that too? The system you have on vue is kind a nice. ju just use your wacom table and brush it on.

walfridson
08-15-2008, 01:27 PM
Spray points, convert to nulls maybe?

3dworks
08-15-2008, 01:39 PM
for what i know, the vue ecosystem technology is still the best way of handling big amounts of instances, but i comes at a price, a very complex GUI and opengl technology. as a result, xstream is still not hassle free under LW.

the nice thing in hd instance is that you can use geometry as a reference for placements, but you can also place instances procedurally (by distribution), without having to care about points or grids. the use of weight maps for distribution, size etc is helping a lot as well. the feedback of placed instances is direct in the layout viewport, also if in very simplified way (axes or boxes), but way better than seeing the results at rendertime only. workflow wise, imo it is only one level under actually 'painting' instances onto geometry directly.

markus

silviotoledo
08-15-2008, 06:55 PM
Everybody would love to have V ray available for lightwave :).

Althoght this seems to be impossible :).


Plugin for plugin. Cool!

roger1972
08-16-2008, 02:03 AM
when they port HDinstances to Kray I buy it...

creacon
08-16-2008, 03:44 AM
Kray has native instancing built in. you just have to find a plugin that scatters nulls on a surface, could even be done in LScript.

creacon



when they port HDinstances to Kray I buy it...

roger1972
08-16-2008, 06:48 AM
Kray has native instancing built in. you just have to find a plugin that scatters nulls on a surface, could even be done in LScript.

creacon

I allready do that... making points in modeler, use particle system to emit particles on the vertexes, and then FX_linker to clone nulls...

just want a more streamlined system...

3dworks
08-16-2008, 10:01 AM
...just want a more streamlined system...

just a little bit of patience until the next open beta ;)

markus

Intuition
08-17-2008, 12:43 PM
Having both Kray and Vray I can chime in here.

I think Vray is a fantastic engine. Many of my own workflow improvements came when I started to learn Vray.

Kray also is a great engine. A "Vray for Lightwave" if you will only lacking the micro poly displacement and the multiframe GI scan for smoothinig GI splotchies in animation that Vray has.

That being said I have tried the scatter demo and its a great workflow as you would like but its one main problem is its licensing is "per node" like vue6.

You only have one computer? Fine, you wont notice. But if you set this up for a farm it quickly becomes expensive.

Just a thought for you. Where as HD instance will render across a farm and so will Kray (add a true art plug in) so if they get those two working together then it may be more cost effective then Vray scatter.

You'd have to decide which is better for you, as far as look goes but all in all Kray is very capable and only is missing a couple things that Vray has overall.

Limbus
08-18-2008, 01:29 AM
OT!
Hey Intuition, do you have a link to some site that explains this featrue some more?

... and the multiframe GI scan for smoothinig GI splotchies in animation that Vray has.
Google didn't bring up anything for me and the Chaosgroup site id down right now.

Cheers, Florian

trick
08-18-2008, 03:20 AM
...That being said I have tried the scatter demo and its a great workflow as you would like but its one main problem is its licensing is "per node" like vue6...

There are some more problems (although the per node licensing and the fact that they did not connect the licensing to the donlge so you can take it home, are the 2 biggest): it only supports one proxy and placement and density is done by maps. The only real killer feature of VRayScatter is the different memory handling which goes around the constraints of Max. In Max when having over 100000 instances, even on 16GB 64bit systems, crashing is prone. But with VRayScatter you can easily place a few million multicolored instance. If you want more accuracy in placement you'll definitely want GroundWiz which will satisfy you in 99% of all cases. It's only when you need huge landscapes where placement and variation is not that important anymore.

I love HDInstance for its small footprint since you don't need heavy base objects to place instances. The only real big problem is that you need to load the base object that is gonna be instanced. So loading a few multimillion poly objects in LW for instancing can really crash Layout even before rendering. Since HDInstance is a Volumetric plugin there is no way around this, unless they develop their own Volumetric engine which can load instances from disk on the fly...

mav3rick
08-18-2008, 07:53 AM
wrong thread :) sorry

Intuition
08-18-2008, 10:37 AM
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150SP1/

That is the online Vray manual.

Under the irradiance map section you'll see the explanation for the render modes. One is "prepass" mode in which it will render out the GI prepass for whcih frames you specify (I do them all, since they don't really take that long)

Then when you have the vrmap files written out you switch from "prepass" to "animation" mode where it will now ask for teh vrmap sequence. It then opens up an numeric value that was grayed out. Its default is 2. If you use 2 it scans 5 frames. The explanation is that it starts with the current frame and then scans 2 frames back and 2 frames forward. irradiance map values and this helps smooth out the GI result. You can go more then 2 but the higher you go the further into the animation it will grab samples from. 2 or 3 is usually all you'll need.

The only hang up is that if you have really fast moving objects (like a ball that only takes 3 frames to go from left to right screen) you will see some early GI info. This is easily covered up in a fully textured scene since all the color values blend ito each other but if you test it on a pure white clean surface you may see a little early noise before the ball gets near the surface. This is reduced to almost un-noticable when you use motion blur.

In most cases it is not a problem at all and if you have textures and motion blur I never see it. Plus I only notice it when I go frame to frame and the scene is super empty but when its played in real time you eye doesn't really go "oh look that was 3 frames early (3/24ths of a second early)".

Its a really nice feature and is good when you don't want to spend the time rendering out very high settings.





OT!
Hey Intuition, do you have a link to some site that explains this featrue some more?

Google didn't bring up anything for me and the Chaosgroup site id down right now.

Cheers, Florian

Limbus
08-18-2008, 10:42 AM
http://www.spot3d.com/vray/help/150SP1/

That is the online Vray manual.

SNIP

Thanks for the reply. THis sounds like a nice tech for stable GI in animations.

Cheers, Florian

pixym
08-18-2008, 07:49 PM
...If you're going to earn money, you also have to use money.
Very well said, I agree as a professional archiviz guy.