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Johnny
07-30-2003, 06:33 AM
I've been looking at the Dual 1.25 GHz G4 offered on Apple's site..comes in at about 1500 $US bare-bones, or 2200 $US with GeForce, 160GB drive and Apple Care.

Other vendors' prices are higher for this unit, stripped or not. Any feelings on whether this box is the best Mac bang/buck available, or should I be looking for other things?

will the GeForce really boost working speed, or would the Radeon option be about as good, letting me save some $$?

thanks for any input.

J

Ade
07-30-2003, 08:50 AM
Its a great system for $1500, stick with Nvidia card as you wont have the dreaded radeon crash bug in modeller.
i wouldnt pay $2200 for it though, a SP G5 1.8 would destroy it and is the same price, but then again I never buy first generation of anything.

barebones DP 1.25 come with 9000 cards, they would be great but there is that bloody bug!

FUSION301
07-30-2003, 10:09 AM
Orderd from Mac Mall dp 1.25 2 gigs of RAM Nvidia geforce titanium, super drive. dont forget to get the adapter for the monitor so you can run dual monitors..60 extra bucks unless you have apple displays....dont get the ati card...havent had one problem with this card yet....not sure if its the best bang or not..but i didnt feel like waiting for the g5's to clear the bugs...Go for it!

and take that mac mouse and toss it back at thed elivery guy..using a 5 button intellipoint mouse is much nicer, Mac may never get that right

Johnny
07-30-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by FUSION301
and take that mac mouse and toss it back at thed elivery guy..using a 5 button intellipoint mouse is much nicer, Mac may never get that right

I'm afraid you're right! I gave up on apple mice a while back.

Do you use FCP 4 on that Dual 1.25ghz?
I suppose that's one of the macs they refer to as being able to render in realtime??

J

Ade
07-30-2003, 10:32 AM
Any apple made app runs extremely fast.
I have a DP 1.25 and FCP runs realtime in all its effects, its excellent. Lightwave runs fast too just make sure u go nvidia. I use a wacom so my mac mouse is still in its shrink wrap.

Johnny
07-30-2003, 10:33 AM
Ade...you Model with the wacom pen???

Ade
07-30-2003, 10:36 AM
I sure do, creating points in Lightwave and moving them is far easier than a mouse.
The pen has 2 buttons on them too.
Then u goto photoshop top make the textures and the pen really shines. Mice are for ppl who have never tried a wacom i always say.


LOL btw nice monitor, almost got the same config as me. Im looking at buying a GF ti card, but i have read the FX cards will be mac flashable so if u buy a pc one it will be cheaper.

FUSION301
07-30-2003, 11:34 AM
Yep I also am running Final Cut, although I'm new to the app I have been doing some video compositing for a client for the last two weeks and haven't had much of a problem with speed..Also using Live type for my text and it renders out farily quickly....Got to love the dual 21" monitors for final cut:D

Johnny
07-30-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Ade
Im looking at buying a GF ti card, but i have read the FX cards will be mac flashable so if u buy a pc one it will be cheaper.

are you referring to one of the card options Apple offers for the 1.25 DP? are you saying that there's a PC version that can bought for less?

any links to articles about this? be nice if I could order the 1.25 DP with a cheaper card, and pick up a cheaper GF later...

J

mlinde
07-30-2003, 06:17 PM
The GeForce Ti cards are not flashable, you have to buy the Mac version. The FX 5200 card (the card that is supposed to ship with the G5) exists for PC already, but if you buy one and can't use it, you have a nice looking box to put on your shelf. Oh, and that BS about 8x AGP required for professional cards is just that, BS. Professional (or high-end, if you prefer) cards have been around since PCI, maybe all the way back to ISA/EISA. They just never existed for the Mac.

On that note, it has been confirmed by a friend that the BIOS (I call it firmware) on a video card is what prevents putting Mac/PC cards in the opposite beast. This is also true for the higher end cards, so unless someone ships a card based on the FireGL or the Quadro chips with a Mac BIOS, there is no way to make these work, even in Panther, unless there is a utility to flash the video BIOS.

Unless someone at Siggraph saw a card manufacturer offering Mac video cards that don't say "Radeon" or "Apple" on them...

FUSION301
07-30-2003, 07:50 PM
Just a quick note..Its Cheaper to buy everything seperate from say mac mall or mac warehouse then from apple..just get it stripped down and install ram and card seperate.Apple wants to charge crazy amounts of money for RAM just get two gigs of some quality RAM and your good to go and you can get rid of your stock card on ebay or use it as a christmas tree ornament...:)

Ade
07-30-2003, 08:47 PM
Correct, buy your ram elsewhere but make sure its ram a g4 likes cause they are fussy.


Im about to leave ATI soon for good.

FUSION301
07-30-2003, 09:01 PM
I cant even model at home anymore..cause of this
ATI conflict. I'm better off using a 16mb video card then my 64 ATI 8500
well at least at work I have the nvidia...SO ANNOYING...Not sure who to point the finger at..but i know which finger I'm pointing with:)

Johnny
07-31-2003, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Correct, buy your ram elsewhere but make sure its ram a g4 likes cause they are fussy.


Im about to leave ATI soon for good.


wow...I'm going to avoid ATI like the plague...

as for 'ram a g4 likes' is it enough to call OWC or Chip Merchant and tell them the model the RAM is for or, do I need to specify something more?

J

Jimzip
07-31-2003, 07:26 AM
I went to my local swapmeet and bought a 512MB stick and it works fine.
Just say it's a Mac G4, and they'll hopefully know what to give you.

Jimzip :D

Ade
07-31-2003, 07:30 AM
Well ATI chooses to piss us off and leave this bug in even though there have been many updates in between....

For lightwave a TI card is the same as a 9800 card, its when u talk games is when u see differences.

roadwarryr
07-31-2003, 10:05 AM
use crucial.com....I've never had any problem with the memory I got from them on my 2x533MHz G4, got some memory from them for my mom's G4 (no prob), and I'm going to get an extra gig from them for my G5 as soon as it gets here, and max out my iBook while I'm at it. They're cheap, too...apple wanted $250 to ship a G5 with 1GB of RAM, and for $190 from crucial I'm getting a gig to add to the 512 already in the system.

roadwarryr
07-31-2003, 10:08 AM
there's a little trick i figured out for at least modeling with a radeon card. I have an iBook that I use for modeling when I'm not at home, and I keep the original 7.5 on it to avoid the 7.5c/10.2.6/radeon bug. It works, and I just do all my serious rendering on the big box with a GF4Ti.

Hopefully either smeagol or panther will fix that bug...then I can use the latest lightwave on both systems.

FUSION301
07-31-2003, 10:16 AM
I'm not using 7.5c and I still crash its the 10.2.6 that causes me to crash with an 8500 card:mad: and I'm skeptical about going back to an older OS I cant afford to trouble shoot while my clients have deadlines..not 3D related stuff...It would be nice to get some feed bakc fom ati newtek whomever as to when this will be fixed

Johnny
07-31-2003, 12:27 PM
can anyone suggest a good source for a GeForce card for the 1.25 dp??

My first thought is CDW, but maybe there's a cheaper vendor...

I'm a little hesitant to use e-bay to buy computer gear..

J

mlinde
07-31-2003, 03:36 PM
If you want a GeForce 4 Ti, you have to go through apple or an authorized reseller. If you don't want to go straight to apple, I'd go to small dog electronics
http://www.smalldog.com/product/41879

They have good prices, nice people, and fun accessories in every package they ship!

Johnny
08-05-2003, 07:39 PM
is the Dual Boot DP 1.25 much slower, if at all, than the OSX-only version?

J

Triple G
08-06-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by FUSION301
I'm not using 7.5c and I still crash its the 10.2.6 that causes me to crash with an 8500 card:mad: and I'm skeptical about going back to an older OS I cant afford to trouble shoot while my clients have deadlines..not 3D related stuff...It would be nice to get some feed bakc fom ati newtek whomever as to when this will be fixed

I was skeptical about this too. Modeler was crashing constantly under 10.2.6 and my Radeon 8500...so, I figured that I had to do something if I wanted to get any work done. I didn't want to re-partition my hard drives and have one for 10.2.6 and another for 10.2.4, and buying another hard drive just for this was out of the question. Honestly, aside from having to reinstall a few video codecs and other such minor things, it's really pretty easy and only took me an hour or two to do. I just did an "Archive and Install" (or whatever the exact name of it is) from the Jaguar disc, which backs up your entire system folder and installs 10.2 in its place. I then updated to 10.2.4, and Modeler and Layout (and all my other apps, for that matter) have been virtually trouble-free ever since. :)

Jimzip
08-06-2003, 04:02 AM
Just remember it's not NewTek's fault here, it's ATi and their drivers for the latest OS updates. The next card I'm saving for is a NVidia..

Jimzip :D

Beamtracer
08-06-2003, 04:37 AM
I wouldn't recommend anyone buys the G4 Mirrored Drive Door machines, even if they are going cheap now. These machines are the worst that Apple has put out in a long time. I'd wait for the G5.

Johnny
08-06-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
I wouldn't recommend anyone buys the G4 Mirrored Drive Door machines, even if they are going cheap now. These machines are the worst that Apple has put out in a long time. I'd wait for the G5.


Any particular reason that these Macs are so bad?

J

eblu
08-06-2003, 07:34 AM
2 reasons:
noise.
and a bad crop of power supplies.

otherwise I have found them to be fine.
(not as reliable as my trusty 933, but hey, whos perfect.... besides the aforementioned 933)


btw:
roadwarryr...
it seems from your post that you think that rendering uses the graphics card, forgive me if this is not the case, but... Rendering is a function of the processor, the Ram, harddrive and related busses... ie: the Graphics card has absolutely nothing to do with rendering. (just wanted to clear that up for you or anyone who might just happen to be under that impression)

FUSION301
08-06-2003, 11:03 AM
For anyone that says macs suck...I'm rendering out 60 frames inLW while I have photoshop, illustrator running back and forth, listening to mp3 player, writing this post on the internet, IMing, and rendering in live type and Final cut pro in real time, as well as have quicktime and modeler running.. did I mention both OS's going yep 9 and OSX ...hasnt thought about crashing, and i just dont have these programs running I'm working with everything, compositing draging dropping to Final Cut, Photoshop compositing exporting to Live type.Saving out and Ftp the files to the server..haha Just thought you guys would like to know...dual 1.25 2G of Ram Nvidia geforce 128mb

Ade
08-06-2003, 11:39 AM
The last of the MDD macs with 167 and FW 800 on the bus were excellent and werent noisy.
I do believe its more ATI's fault thus i will leave them soon, but I do believe NEWTEK MUST hasstle ATI to fix the bug that affects their app.


Ask yourself this -

If this bug existed on the pc side, how long would have it took for Newtek to get it fixed?

Triple G
08-06-2003, 12:24 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if a GeForce 4 Ti will work in a G4 with only a 2x AGP slot? I'm not planning on dropping $400 on one any time soon, but it'd be nice to know if I could or not.

mlinde
08-06-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Triple G
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if a GeForce 4 Ti will work in a G4 with only a 2x AGP slot? I'm not planning on dropping $400 on one any time soon, but it'd be nice to know if I could or not.

The card will work. You won't get optimal performance with 2x AGP (the number is a bus speed multiplier). Same is true for other cards that will soon exist with the G5, like the 5200FX. They will run on machines without 8x AGP.

Triple G
08-06-2003, 04:40 PM
Thanks for that info, mlinde. I was just concerned, because all the documentation I've seen for the GF4Ti have said that AGP 4x minimum is required. Guess that's just what they recommend for what they consider "optimal" performance? Still, even on a 2x machine (which mine just so happens to be), a GF4Ti should outperform the Radeon 8500 I've got in there now, correct?

mlinde
08-06-2003, 04:44 PM
I can't tell you whether it would outperform an 8500, except that you could also run 10.2.6, LW 7.5, and the latest FCP without serious problems. Sorry :(

Triple G
08-06-2003, 05:31 PM
That's ok. I guess if I was a big FCP user (which I'm not), it'd be a relevant option. But with 10.2.4, Lightwave runs great on my system, and there's really nothing I need to run which I'm unable to. The 8500's no slouch, and I just bought it like a year ago...so chances are I'll be sticking with it for a while. :)

toby
08-06-2003, 06:30 PM
I've been under the impression that a 4xAGP card will NOT work with 2xAGP.

mlinde
08-06-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by toby
I've been under the impression that a 4xAGP card will NOT work with 2xAGP.

According to my PC-building guru (who spends his days at Draper Laboratories (http://www.draper.com/) a 4x AGP card will run at 2x in a 2x slot. No other issues.

Triple G
08-06-2003, 07:47 PM
I know that at the last place I worked, I was on a machine (PC) with a 4x AGP slot, and was using an 8x AGP card with no problems. So, according to your friend, mlinde, I guess the same would hold true for Macs, then?

mlinde
08-06-2003, 08:33 PM
There is no reason for it to not work, especially if you have real-world experience. It's hardware interconnnect, not software, at that stage, and the hardware is all pretty much the same.

eblu
08-07-2003, 09:12 AM
the 4xAGP spec includes downwards compatibility with 2xAGP.

this means that the hardware Must work in a 2xAGP slot in order to be 4xAGP compliant. not optimally, Of course.
I haven't looked into 8xAGP but its safe to assume a similar type of compatibility.