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Eugeny
08-13-2008, 04:38 AM
Well i'm just wanted to say some contest after thoughts
Next time then u guys make contest - be consistent and follow your own rules !
And the rules was:
The contest theme is about high-energy, action-packed video that defines "Model, Animate and Render" - We want you, the artist, to have as much artistic freedom as possible; however, we still need to define the rules for this contest:

* Multiple entries per person are accepted. Each entry requires you to fill out the entry form.
* Animations must be submitted as QuickTime animations in HD resolution (1280x720) using the following recommendations:
- Video Length: up to 15 sec.
- Compression: Quicktime H.264 codec
- Max file size: 150 MB
- up to 30 frames per sec.
* The animation must be 100% LightWave models, rigging and renders only. You can use any non-commercial, freely available plugin.
* Post-production outside of LightWave is limited to color correction, transitions, time stretching.
* Use of audio will not be considered when judging, However, feel free to add voice-over for character animation/lip sync or sound FX.
* No derogatory content will be tolerated. All video files submitted must be in good taste.
* Winners must sign a release that the animation is their original work, and is in no way derived or copied from any other person or source.


Nearly all of the winners (except the first price) was not standing on the criteria of these rules:

2nd price - really impressive piеse of work (honestly i will get the first price for this one) but it's not rendered in HD, this is why it's arranged like this , and rendering to HD was one of the major factors ! That's why u guys get so little amount of entries (I'm assuming this by that fact that u include 3 from my 4 submissions, and amount of flying logos presented on reel). And did u guys honestly believe that this piece of work not used compositing ?

3d price - it's a completed movie 2.30 min long! Of cause it's mach easier to tell a story with something completed, and if u judge the originality of the idea - it's mach easier to pick this piece of work there the whole idea is understood then say the rabbit animation (which is mach better from the CA animation point of view but was not completed as the full story). Damn, one of my entries (the lighting robots) is the complete movie 3 min long. If i was know that u guys accept full length movies and stuff that not rendered in HD i was able to blow your server with entries !

4d price - are u guys believe that this was done by simple pressing F9 ? And any compositing not used ? Or u believe that some one used LW as the compositing tool to arrange this ? I hope author will submit the scene assets to be included on the next content CD, just to check that 100 % of lightwave was used.

Now for the first price ... I'm speechless ... Congrats for the winner, enjoy your prices.


Now i understand why LW in the so deep **** ... If marketing team prefer to show something like this on the header of the LW web site, I'm speechless ...

Personally I'm disappointed. Not only by that fact that I'm lose this contest but more by that fact that my work loose to some work that even not on pair to my and other works.

blugenwitz
08-13-2008, 07:02 AM
Oh. c'mon.

hrgiger
08-13-2008, 07:20 AM
Well, I have to agree. If Newtek is going to set up a contest with rules, I don't see how fair it is to let someone win that did not adhere to the rules. Had I submitted an entry, I would feel this way too.
The contest entry was supposed to be under 15 seconds in length, so why do we have an entry that is over a few minutes long coming in third? I'd also be inclined to agree that it is unlikely that compositing was not used, especially on the second entry.
I'm also wondering if the first prize went to the one that was just pure Lightwave marketing. If I thought it would have increased my chances, I would put the Lightwave Logo all over the place as well.

RebelHill
08-13-2008, 07:32 AM
I agree... im highly suspicious that 2nd place used no external polish/compositing... the limitations listed in the rules was one of the things that made me not want to bother entering.

Jim_C
08-13-2008, 07:37 AM
It's the Baba Booey Song Parody contest all over again... ;)

DBMiller
08-13-2008, 09:29 AM
Well, I have to agree. If Newtek is going to set up a contest with rules, I don't see how fair it is to let someone win that did not adhere to the rules. Had I submitted an entry, I would feel this way too.
The contest entry was supposed to be under 15 seconds in length, so why do we have an entry that is over a few minutes long coming in third? I'd also be inclined to agree that it is unlikely that compositing was not used, especially on the second entry.
I'm also wondering if the first prize went to the one that was just pure Lightwave marketing. If I thought it would have increased my chances, I would put the Lightwave Logo all over the place as well.

I agree as well. While I knew I would not be in the running, I did keep to the rules. It's really not fair if the winners did not. Perhaps there really weren't many really good entries and they took what they could get, but, I don't think it's sour grapes to notice the rule stretching. DBM.

andrew_y
08-13-2008, 09:45 AM
Thank you for expressing your concern, I appreciate it, and hopefully by answering this post, we may be able to clear up any questions.

First off I would like to personally say not only did I enjoy watching The w.i.p. threads, I also enjoyed seeing the final animations. Some of them are simply steller, considering the very short time frame, and limited 3rd party plugin use. This really shows the true power of what can be done with LightWave in a tight deadline situation.

The contest was essentially to add some interactivity to the user forums, generate some future content and to show off what can be done in a tight deadline.

I would like to take a second to explain exactly how the judging was done. I don't think it really needs to be justified, as the judges decisions are final. However, personally, I believe that it would be important for some to understand the process.

The judging was based off of the following criteria:
Originality / Creativity - 50%
Cinematography / Direction - 35%
Quality of assets - 15%

We basically wanted to see originality over quality of assets for this particular contest. The reason for this, as stated, was the possibility to include such files in the future as content, and we cannot, unfortunately, risk the chance of copyright infringement.

Each item was based on a scale from 1 to 10 (10 being best). The video clips were looped and the judges scored it based on each instance of the criteria. Once they scored based on "Originality / Creativity", they then moved on to score it based on "Cinematography / Direction" .. then on to quality of assets. Once this process was complete, the numbers were added and checked by several other people to ensure they were correct. This is how we arrived at the final 4.

I can say, it was real close between several of the entries towards the end.

Along the way, there were some questions as to weather some things were created in LightWave or not. We anticipated this, and as such, had asked the author to email the files so we may take a peek. An example would be the 4th runner up, titled "Black Snow" - The assets were received and checked to be consistent.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/contest/images/ss_1.jpg

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/contest/images/ss_3.jpg


Some entries included a long version of the actual entry, Some included the content WITH the entry, and some submitted multiple entries. It was really interesting to see all the entries come in and what people are doing with LightWave and how they achieve certain things using the base package.

Off the record, I will say there were some outstanding entries, and I have my personal favorites, that, unfortunately did not make it. This doesn't mean they are no good. On the contrary, it just simply means that based on the criteria to judge by, some fit the bill well.

I hope that helps clear things up for anyone reading this.

Eugeny
08-13-2008, 10:05 AM
Andrew u explained how it's was judged not why some of them was accepted ... And to be honest extending dead line to 25 hours was also not so fair move.

hrgiger
08-13-2008, 10:18 AM
Did the 2 minute and 30 second winner also have an entry that was under 15 seconds? You said that some people included a longer version of their entry. If so, why isn't the actual entry shown on the winners page? It would be nice to see what they're actually winning for because based on the criteria of the contest, I don't see how the longer one is relevant.

CMT
08-13-2008, 11:20 AM
Personally, I thought the first place winner was the best of the 4 they picked, so I have no problem there. I saw some cool entrees in the demo reel, but didn't get to see the whole 15 seconds of most of them.

Extending the deadline 25 hours made it unfair why? As I understood it, it was to make sure that those who were having problems uploading actually had the time to finish their upload.

And why would Newtek need to explain their reasons for liking one entry over the other (assuming criteria being met for all entrees)?


Personally I'm disappointed. Not only by that fact that I'm lose this contest but more by that fact that my work loose to some work that even not on pair to my and other works.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree that the winners didn't deserve it. Originality was 50% of the criteria and I thought 3 of the 4 winners (not second place) was the most creative of what I saw on the demo reel. But that's a bit subjective.

meathead
08-13-2008, 11:48 AM
Geez, so much for good sportmanship ?!?!?


Congrats to the winners! They are all great!

colkai
08-13-2008, 12:00 PM
Well i for one am amazed that the one that looked like it had been heavily processed was in fact "in the box" - shows that sometimes, even those using LW can be fooled.
Congrats to those who got in.

Still, I do think some of the complaints are valid, but at the end of the day, Newtek have made their choices and have their reasons, even if some don't agree with them. I personally don't have a problem, s'all good - more to the point, it shows what can be done quickly, outside of "big studios" with LW - which has always been a strong point for it.

Eugeny
08-13-2008, 12:00 PM
To CMT: I don't say they not deserve it (and my quoted words are about fist place entry), i asked why some of them was accepted despite that fact that they did not adhere to the rules (not rendered to HD, compositing and longer then 15 second).
I'm not asking NewTek to explain why they asked one other the others as Andrew said "I don't think it really needs to be justified, as the judges decisions are final", and OK with it.

Expanding dead line was getting extra hours of rendering for some one who don't had a time to finish it at time. Simple as that. Dead line is the dead line, if u can't stand it at time u out of the game. As for the uploading - it's pretty simple to see on server log files if some one really was stacked with traffic and allow him extra hours to upload. (As for me - i needed to delete one shot completely to upload my entry at time and then, after expanding dead line, i realized that some of the people that missed dead line are uploading, so i decided to up my almost full render, luckily i didn't cancel it).

And enough of this, done that is done, 3 from my 4 entries are included and showed at Siggraph, so thanx for that, just for the future contests NewTeck guys - pleas follow your own rules.

CMT
08-13-2008, 12:14 PM
i realized that some of the people that missed dead line are uploading, so i decided to up my almost full render, luckily i didn't cancel it).

So, even though you have a problem with it, you took advantage of the time extension. Did I read that right?

Magnetix
08-13-2008, 12:15 PM
Eugeny, I think your point is valid!, and I really liked your work, great stuff.

Eugeny
08-13-2008, 12:24 PM
So, even though you have a problem with it, you took advantage of the time extension. Did I read that right?

Exactly, but after submitting my entry which was unfinished. So i did every thing to meet dead line (deleted one shot) and after realizing that people that missed it are uploading i said WTF and uploaded finished one.

Thank u Magnetix ...

evolross
08-13-2008, 06:23 PM
I'll have to say I was disappointed with the winner. A jerky animated robot? That's not very original... isn't that one of those "avoid" areas when it comes to 3D?

IMHO it's a beginner-looking model (very rigid, very blocky) with ultra-beginner level animation and rigging. The lighting was alright. The environment needed way more. The dance moves were kind of cool, but not first place. I actually cringed a little. Not because it's bad or I'm better or anything like that. I cringed because this is what Newtek calls a first place winning entry for their SIGGRAPH 08 contest. This is what they want to show to the graphics world at large.

There were projects on the reel and in the WIP threads that I was following that I was expecting to at least place.

The reel isn't bad overall though. I think Lightwave can do much better overall than what I saw. Even from the independent community. Still just cringing for Newtek somewhat.

hrgiger
08-13-2008, 07:02 PM
Well, I wanted to stay away from commenting directly on peoples work. The judges chose who they did and that was their decision. However, I still feel like Newtek should have adhered to the rules that they laid out and not accepted anything over 15 seconds and anything that had post work done on it. Did the second place winner show his assets/screenshots because that's the one I question on that matter.

JBT27
08-14-2008, 05:51 AM
Not to take away from the winners, and I didn't enter so I'm hardly qualified to talk, but I'm afraid I will add my voice to the view that the first prize dancing robot was a surprise.....my instant thought was that it is not a great ad for the possibilities of LW. I wouldn't buy into LW on the back of any of that work.

I can only think that because it carried some NT branding, it got noticed all the more - a lame criterion.

Going forward, it is imperative that NT marketing, and this new content team get their collective act together. I know it's a Siggraph deadline thing, but right now I have the brand new 9.5 on my box with no PDFs to explain the new features.....

Julian.

blugenwitz
08-14-2008, 05:56 AM
ohhhh... c'mooooon.

Stooch
08-14-2008, 05:34 PM
hmm to me the robot was the worst of the 4 top placeers. it looked like it took the least effort to make, the environment was extremely cheesy and the animation was basically rotations on a single axis. ...

if this is what nt considers top notch - original animation then the future of LW CA is dire indeed! funny, the only entry that actually made use of LW CA tools was the bunny one and id say its about 10x the technical skill, lighting quality and story originality. this kind of explains NTs choice of luminitek work for their booth at siggie. you can buy software but you cant buy good taste i guess.

Steamthrower
08-14-2008, 08:15 PM
if this is what nt considers top notch - original animation then the future of LW CA is dire indeed! funny, the only entry that actually made use of LW CA tools was the bunny one and id say its about 10x the technical skill, lighting quality and story originality. this kind of explains NTs choice of luminitek work for their booth at siggie. you can buy software but you cant buy good taste i guess.

I am overall pleased with Newtek, and I do not like to critique any particular work at all, but you have definitely got some points there, Stooch.

faulknermano
08-14-2008, 10:43 PM
and as such, had asked the author to email the files so we may take a peek. An example would be the 4th runner up, titled "Black Snow" - The assets were received and checked to be consistent.




to be clear, i think what was meant was not necessarily if LW was used. rather, it was whether or any non-LW post-processing was used.

as for me, i think 4th *may* have had post-processing, but i find it well within the realm of possibility that it was straight LW, especially after threads such as this:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33682

loki74
08-15-2008, 01:39 AM
you can buy software but you cant buy good taste

I'm not saying anything about this thread other than that if a contest has rules, they should be followed to a tee--no exceptions. Aside from that, I'd just like to say that the above is a really good quote!

frantbk
08-15-2008, 06:43 AM
Why don't they just show most of the material summited and let the community post their views. than we can see if the majority of the communities standards are higher then NewTek's.

frantbk
08-15-2008, 07:22 AM
Well, I've just finished watching the winning reels. I can see where the complaints are valid. I think most of you are going about this the wrong way. My question is: are the judges really qualified to judge? If 50% was based on originality/creativity - where was that in the four reels? Number two's final fantasy computer game reel is far from original. The fact is nothing was original, so why was original and creative lumped together?

JBT27
08-15-2008, 09:05 AM
Why don't they just show most of the material summited and let the community post their views. than we can see if the majority of the communities standards are higher then NewTek's.

I think in future this is one of the best ways to handle this - peer-review at least should flag-up to NT what we all think.....if they choose other criteria then so be it.

I feel a bit bad about being negative over the winners work, but we are talking about promoting professional software at a very high-end show, never mind afterwards in general. NT allow open-betas to get our opinions and testing, they now ask us what we think about the future of LW, so why not involve the community in marketing. Let's face it, first 9.5 goes GM without any docs, now we have this attempt at marketing.....

Julian.

hrgiger
08-15-2008, 09:38 AM
Well, I think it's safe to say that this contest had about everything to do with generating Lightwave Marketing at Siggraph and very little to do with rewarding and recognizing those for quality work in Lightwave. Even out of the four contest entries that won, the one (at least in a lot of people's opinions here anyway) that came in first wasn't the best one. But it did mention Lightwave 9 and Siggraph so apparently Newtek found what they were looking for in that entry and it had little to do with the guidelines they setup for us.

virtualcomposer
08-15-2008, 09:55 AM
I like the thoughts of having us on the forum give a good opinion of the animations in the contest to influence decision. Some of the stuff I've seen on this forum was 10 times better then that robot.

blugenwitz
08-15-2008, 10:27 AM
I think robot is not bad at all - animation is funny, I like the way he's move. It need a bit polishing (materials, light, render) but it's much better than for example my short - it's clear, camera is OK, animation is simple but good... and it's 15 sec, no doubt lightwave. And it looks like made for this competition. We can post our votes in this thread, but I'm OK with results.
I think we learn a lot. I do.

The_Peabody01
08-15-2008, 12:13 PM
This thread was completely started in bad taste. Sounds like it's coming from people who are miffed because they didn't win 1st place, in a "lets take it out on the 1st place entry, because we didn't win anything" kinda way.

:thumbsdow It's bad sportmanship guys! come on.

jahn
08-15-2008, 01:51 PM
I didn't participate in the contest but the Weekend Factory and Black Snow are my favorites.

AbnRanger
08-15-2008, 02:59 PM
Geez, so much for good sportmanship ?!?!?


Congrats to the winners! They are all great!If you're competing in a sporting event and one of your opponents clearly breaks a rule, it's poor sportmanship to go to the referee about it? I see it every Sunday, watching football...baseball, basketbll, etc.

Personally I thought Eugeny's was certainly deserving of a top 2 or 3. He demonstrated expert modeling skills (which the first prize certainly did not). Expert lighting, use of volumetrics (for the thick fog), camera angles, etc.
It looked more like something you'd see in a game cinematic or feature film (I'm sure he would've polished it up more if that is what it was used for). Now contrast that to the winning entry (something you'd expect in a student reel), and I'd be a bit ticked off too. What was the appeal?...because the robot piece was kind of cute, with some shiny graphics?

It certainly didn't meet the mission statement for the contest as well as some of the others did...that is to demonstrate what LW is capable of. The first place entry DID NOT prove to anyone the level of professional work LW is capable of. To that end, the second place and Eugeny's entry did a much better job of demonstrating that, as well as the others. But coming from a company that had a purple, green, brown, and grey UI color scheme up to LW 7.5, I'm reminded of how little taste they seem to have, in the first place.

Personally, I thought the winner would've been more like a 5th place or lower, with such a primitive robot used. The rest of the set was cool...just would've demonstrated more craft with a better model...humanoid robot, IMHO. That robot (not the rest of the scene) looked like something a first year student would submit in their 2nd or 3rd week. This is what Larry (SplineGod), Stooch and others have been talking about when stating that Newtek has not been putting their best material on display.

I liked the 2nd place much better than the rest, but it appeared to me that it must have been something they already had done before the contest, and just saw the contest as an opportunity.

Eugeny has a very valid point. Rules are rules. The recent Vue 5 competition had a hard deadline and had some rules I wish I could've broken, to sweeten up or improve the final shot...but they stuck to their rules. So should Newtek.

Julez4001
08-15-2008, 03:11 PM
Personally, I thought the winner would've been more like a 5th place or lower, with such a primitive robot used. The rest of the set was cool...just would've demonstrated more craft with a better model...humanoid robot, IMHO. That robot (not the rest of the scene) looked like something a first year student would submit in their 2nd or 3rd week. This is what Larry (SplineGod), Stooch and others have been talking about when stating that Newtek has not been putting their best material on display.



Newtek needs like a 2 year banned of that stuff in their gallery.

We get the point that Lightwave can do this type of artwork, you guys have been beating our heads with this stuff like 8 years now. yes we know "its a matte rof taste" but hello.. Marketing.


We need something new and consistent.

AbnRanger
08-15-2008, 03:22 PM
hmm to me the robot was the worst of the 4 top placeers. it looked like it took the least effort to make, the environment was extremely cheesy and the animation was basically rotations on a single axis. ...

if this is what nt considers top notch - original animation then the future of LW CA is dire indeed! funny, the only entry that actually made use of LW CA tools was the bunny one and id say its about 10x the technical skill, lighting quality and story originality. this kind of explains NTs choice of luminitek work for their booth at siggie. you can buy software but you cant buy good taste i guess.I actually have to say that I agree 100% percent with Stooch on this (first time for everything, I guess). In my mind the first place made LW look worse. I can't even see Carrara demonstrating what it can do with an example like this. Overall, I think the body of submissions did do LW some justice, but by selecting what they did as 1st place would turn me off to LW if I were an outsider walking by the booth, or visiting the website for the first time.
And that Luminitek stuff was atrocious to the extent that it's the same old content. That's what you might expect to see from a student, who has a fixation on boobs and buttocks...and nothing else butt (pun intended) that. What's the old maxim..."no matter how good the 3D looks, if the story sucks, the movie sucks." If all you have is some busty models doing spinning jump kicks...it get's so tiring after a while, don't you think? What else is new (there's a million busty models with guns on the web)? I bet this is the kind of material major studios have to weed through day after day.

The_Peabody01
08-15-2008, 03:55 PM
It looked more like something you'd see in a game cinematic or feature film (I'm sure he would've polished it up more if that is what it was used for). Now contrast that to the winning entry (something you'd expect in a student reel), and I'd be a bit ticked off too. What was the appeal?...because the robot piece was kind of cute, with some shiny graphics?.

All the entries I have seen were all indeed great. I can't help but feel a little bad for the winner, what with everyone laying into their entry.

There have been good points and bad points raised for everything mentioned so far, and yes rules are rules - it's gotta be played fair.

AbnRanger, I can't help but find your post quite harsh towards the winning entry. There are some points which I am sure you are right about, but when saying it is something you'd expect to see on a student reel, I really beg to differ. I have seen student work and it's much more basic than ROBOTOCHAN, with very little attention to F-curves and smooth movement. A lot of entries had jerky camera moves because very little attention to F-curves. Eugeny's entry certainly suffered from this. At the end of the day, you can only go by the guide lines set and Assets being 15% of the overall mark. Maybe not the best of moves but that was one of the criteria.

I must say, with such a long post and with comments you raised, I was expecting some kind of expert in lightwave or any kind of 3D. I was slightly dissapointed when I clicked onto your site and saw your showreel. It isn't fair to call other peoples work "something you'd expect in a student reel" when from what I saw, your efforts weren't much higher than student effort. Im no expert in 3D by far, but it's natural to know what looks good and what doesn't, with this in mind, I would have thought twice about your response to this thread.:thumbsdow

The_Peabody01
08-15-2008, 04:15 PM
Newtek needs like a 2 year banned of that stuff in their gallery.

We get the point that Lightwave can do this type of artwork, you guys have been beating our heads with this stuff like 8 years now. yes we know "its a matte rof taste" but hello.. Marketing.


We need something new and consistent.

Thought you wasn't slamming Dominics work? lol

Tippsy
08-15-2008, 04:33 PM
Wow I am not even sure I want to even post a comment here but I feel the need to, first off Peabody the reason Eugeny's camera was jumpy was because that's exactly that style for a movie or a video game or anything else. Its a scary part and things are happening fast its supposed to be a hand held camera feel. He even stated that on his WIP even though you could tell just from looking at it.

Now about the winners I definetly thought they were good but like so many other people here have posted you have to be honest in the fact that the first places was definitely simple and easily a students work. But that being said it was pretty darn original! So I give him credit for that. But I just bought Lightwave a few months ago and I would Never Ever buy lightwave if I saw that as the promotional video but I would definitely look into it more and be interested if I saw work like Eugeny's I definitely think that was better done but like they said 50% was originality sooo.. I think whats done is done but it is quite fun to argue over it afterwards although I don't think the purpose of this thread was to have the judges rejudge everything just to give are opinions.

faulknermano
08-15-2008, 05:07 PM
Why don't they just show most of the material summited and let the community post their views. than we can see if the majority of the communities standards are higher then NewTek's.

i agree. just weed out those that did not follow the rules, and let the community vote.

frantbk
08-15-2008, 05:23 PM
This thread was completely started in bad taste. Sounds like it's coming from people who are miffed because they didn't win 1st place, in a "lets take it out on the 1st place entry, because we didn't win anything" kinda way.

:thumbsdow It's bad sportmanship guys! come on.

Why is it bad taste to complain about the winners not following the rules? NewTek is the problem here not the winners of the contest. NewTek set down standards for a contest then gave the winning prize to people that didn't meet that standard. The people that followed the rules of the contest got screwed.

This is why there is no community project,...people no longer participating in most contest, or much of any other NewTek community activity because someone always breaks the rules and is rewarded for it. I'm like many of the others. I didn't participate in the contest because I knew it would be just like this.

NewTek has pissed off most in this community so they will not give any work to show case Lightwave if asked, so NewTek made up the contest to get some new content. That's all this is about, this never had anything to do with a real contest with real standards.

AbnRanger
08-15-2008, 06:21 PM
I must say, with such a long post and with comments you raised, I was expecting some kind of expert in lightwave or any kind of 3D. I was slightly dissapointed when I clicked onto your site and saw your showreel. It isn't fair to call other peoples work "something you'd expect in a student reel" when from what I saw, your efforts weren't much higher than student effort. Im no expert in 3D by far, but it's natural to know what looks good and what doesn't, with this in mind, I would have thought twice about your response to this thread.:thumbsdowI stand by everything I said...that the robot itself was something you'd see early in a intro modeling class...and you're saying my work (which is mixed between 3D, Compositing, and Graphic Design), was no more complex than that silly robot? Please!

I wasn't pitting my work against his, but against the competition, which was MUCH better... no doubt many of the entries spent a great deal more time on their models than the winning entry. What's wrong about that?

AbnRanger
08-15-2008, 06:43 PM
I was slightly dissapointed when I clicked onto your site and saw your showreel... At least I'm not hiding my work...where is yours, chief?

Surrealist.
08-15-2008, 07:03 PM
It is time for a little levity.

I think the winners should be proud of what they did. They won. Doesn't matter how unfair the contest doesn't matter the opinion of people on this thread. They won and they should be proud. I enjoyed them all for what they were.

NewTek was trying to do a positive thing with the contest. It was. There will be another. I hope there will be anyway. I think it was a good thing. :)

Jim_C
08-15-2008, 07:24 PM
OK.. Different perspective here.

I'm an editor, can barely open LW, just like hanging around this side of the forum pretending I'm as cool as the real guys....
But..

I watched all of them and the dancing robot had the biggest effect on me. It made me smile, laugh, wiggle my butt, dance in my seat and it had Newtek's name in it.

I also laughed at weekend factory, quite a bit, but the dancing robot stuck in my head longer than any of the others.

If they were going for a pure marketing video that makes people smile and remember the name Newtek, they picked the right one. It might not have been the most complex or difficult to create, but it has a 'Byyyyy Mennen' kinda jingle to it.

robk
08-15-2008, 09:15 PM
I think everyone needs to chill out. I didn't win and I don't care. I'm sure Newtek had it 's reasons for choosing the winners. No one even knows how many entries there were. Did every animation make the showreel?
Let's just congratulate the winners and wish them well.

Julez4001
08-15-2008, 09:50 PM
Thought you wasn't slamming Dominics work? lol



Like I said, for that genre : "kiddie art"/plastic toy..he did excellent work. The genre itself is played and its seem to always be on front street while all of the kewl stuff is on third shelf. There was guys who modeled, uv-ed, weighted and really textured their characters and most of us know the 'bot was 2 hrs at most ...work to put together. Its simple shapes and primitives.
because he won, invalid everyone's else tireless and detailed work???

AbnRanger
08-15-2008, 11:14 PM
Im no expert in 3D by far, but it's natural to know what looks good and what doesn't, with this in mind, I would have thought twice about your response to this thread.:thumbsdowThen, with no work of your own to show, why didn't you think twice before opening your flapper, boss?

I commented on the model alone...as the main character of the entry, I thought it a shame to reward such a minimal effort compared to the other entrants. They obviously busted their buttocks...for nothing. That's why I'm with Eugeny on this...when you said it was in poor taste.

Mike_RB
08-15-2008, 11:18 PM
It does seem odd that entires not conforming to the rules would even be accepted, nevermind judged.

Having been at the booth I have to say the scene in the snow with the alien? ship was quite impressive.

Surrealist.
08-15-2008, 11:21 PM
I think everyone needs to chill out. I didn't win and I don't care. I'm sure Newtek had it 's reasons for choosing the winners. No one even knows how many entries there were. Did every animation make the showreel?
Let's just congratulate the winners and wish them well.



Exactly. :thumbsup:

I think what happened is a great thing. I think people coming together to compete is positive and it stimulates growth. Many people used this as a opportunity to learn LW and take things to the next level for themselves. It was a win win all the way around.

If it was not perfect in the eyes of some people, so be it. Everybody has an opinion about art and so what else is new? Why would that be any different here?

I think this time should be used to congratulate the winners.

You know these people scarcely had but a few hours to enjoy the winnings before this thread started - what with time zones around the world and so on. I am sure that these people felt good about what they did. And they should. Winning a contest is not an easy thing. Is it luck? Is it talent? Even when the criteria is defined, it can seem like a crap shoot. Everything from the Academy awards down to the smallest film festival have their detractors that say this or that should not win. But that is life. That is the way it is. With a contest, the criteria is set, the people who put it on are in charge, they make the rules they make the decisions. I for one, think that should be respected and the people who win should be congratulated. End of story.

When you enter a contest - any contest - you should do you best work and expect to win and you should also be prepared to lose - gracefully and with dignity regardless of how any part of it seemed to break its own rules or was unfair.

People who can do that, in the long run, in my book, earn the respect of the people around them. I would have respect and admiration for anyone who did great work and yet did not win but also had the dignity to respect those who did regardless of personal opinion.

And on the flip side, I have a tremendous respect for people who win a contest and feel as if the competition was at least equal if not better, then mention it. It is a great way to heal wounds. I have seen this but a few times on the Academy awards.

But do you think any of those people are going to come forward now and say, "hey, glad I won, did not think mine was the best work, but thank you all for your support and I really thought you all did great work."?

I think not. (But if it happened - excuse me I did not read the hole thing)This thread has done nothing but generate bad feelings in a group that may have differing opinions but should also know when to show some respect. There is a time for everything and the time here should have been to respect and congratulate the winners. :lwicon:

Mike_RB
08-15-2008, 11:32 PM
If it was not perfect in the eyes of some people, so be it. Everybody has an opinion about art and so what else is new? Why would that be any different here?

No one is debating the judges ability to judge their own contest. Just that some entires didn't merit acceptance by not meeting the requirements, nevermind get judged. This is independent of the 'art' of the entries.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 12:06 AM
No one is debating the judges ability to judge their own contest. Just that some entires didn't merit acceptance by not meeting the requirements, nevermind get judged. This is independent of the 'art' of the entries.

I have to disagree. There is plenty of contention as to the artistic nature and validity of the winning slots. But these are two different thoughts. One thought is about the fairness of the contest. The other is about the artistic merit of the winning slots. There has been plenty of debate of both.


And as far as I can see NT has made the effort to try and clear up the point about the validity of the entires. In the end it is NT who put on the contest and they are the ones who are deciding what is a valid entry and what is not.

As to the debate about the artistic merit, well, welcome to the real world. We all have opinions. My point is, OK, fine. Just give the winners a little respect. I think it is respect that is due.

And further to reinstate the point. No contest ever seems fair to everyone. That is just the way it is. When you lose, show show respect even if it seems blatantly unfair. Then bring your points up directly with the contest organizers. But even then, they put on the contest. They have to final say. At some point you have to take the high road and respect that, even if it seems wrong.

blugenwitz
08-16-2008, 12:38 AM
Thanks Surrealist :).

faulknermano
08-16-2008, 12:40 AM
you should also be prepared to lose - gracefully and with dignity regardless of how any part of it seemed to break its own rules or was unfair.


with all due respect, that is nonsense. fairness is everyone abiding by the rules - not a discrimination for one person or another. if i entered a contest which *presupposed* that rules were not to be followed, then i would go and break them and take your advice and accept my loss 'gracefully'. that's because everybody was in equal terms of presupposing breaking the status quo. that's fairness.

that isnt the case here. or is it? -are you guys privy to something most us arent aware of?

faulknermano
08-16-2008, 12:44 AM
At some point you have to take the high road and respect that, even if it seems wrong.

only sheep do that. how can a man respect what he reasons as unfair? what a man should do is reconsider about wasting his time joining future contests in the future.

faulknermano
08-16-2008, 12:47 AM
one more thing: i'm not challenging the veracity of the submissions' actual compliance. i'm merely pointing out the principle of following contest rules vs shrugging off in denial the possibility of the violation of those rules.

shrox
08-16-2008, 01:01 AM
One reason I am doing that 1970's car chase anim is because I see so many space battles, wild matrix style fights and cutesy toy or cartoony videos. I love space stuff, but I know many people looking to hire just skip something that looks like another space battle, or badly done flying karate fight.

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 01:08 AM
When and IF Newtek does another contest, I think they will be hard press for volunteers to sign (back) up if most ppl feel that the rules were waived in this one.

CGTalk doesn't seem to have this problem.

The only way to heal such wounds is to have more and very frequent contest on a smaller scale so when thay have huge Contest, the expectations will have been clear among future participants. They definitely shouldn't just let this fester without acknowledging in some way.

I understand where Surrealist is coming from but they are some hurt feeling out there for those who participated.

The_Peabody01
08-16-2008, 05:16 AM
Why is it bad taste to complain about the winners not following the rules?.

From what I can see the winning one didn't break any of the rules set. Like it or lump it!:grumpy:

Weetos
08-16-2008, 05:51 AM
At least I'm not hiding my work...
Just watched your demo reel and I can tell there some good stuff in there - Although I'm surprised to see LW doesn't appear in the 'software used' list of your resumé ?

Regarding the contest entries, I've seen a few really cool stuff in the gallery, and ROBOTOCHAN wouldn't have been first in my top four - The fact is that NT staff made it number one - so be it - Congrats to the winner, there's not much else to say - NT's decision about using this material for siggy is their own, even if some users, including me, would have chosen some more 'industry/pro' stuff

frantbk
08-16-2008, 06:26 AM
From what I can see the winning one didn't break any of the rules set. Like it or lump it!:grumpy:

From what some people are complaining about that the top three winners went over on the time limit. That is breaking the rules. Once again many of you don't seem to grasp what people are really complaining about. It is not the winners, but NewTek people are complaining about. NewTek didn't stick to the rules that they put down as a requirement for the contest. Thats what people are complaining about.

In future contest's people should look at the rules as guidelines for their work. NewTek doesn't have any standards, and if they don't have real standards for a contest then you have to question if you should trust NewTek and their contest.

frantbk
08-16-2008, 06:38 AM
No one is debating the judges ability to judge their own contest. Just that some entires didn't merit acceptance by not meeting the requirements, nevermind get judged. This is independent of the 'art' of the entries.

You may not be debating the Judges ability to judge their own contest, but I am. If you look at the top three winners you see nothing to do with original work. The dancing robot has been done to death using other objects. The Final Fantasy-xbox/PSP3 of the second winner isn't original. If you look at all the winners and go back and look at NewTek's old PR reels you'll see most of this stuff there, in one form or another.

The people judging are stuck in a rut and that rut is making NewTek look old and out of step with the 3D industry. I agree with the other thread and what has been said in this one. It is all kiddie-toy stuff.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 06:49 AM
From what some people are complaining about that the top three winners went over on the time limit. That is breaking the rules. Once again many of you don't seem to grasp what people are really complaining about. It is not the winners, but NewTek people are complaining about. NewTek didn't stick to the rules that they put down as a requirement for the contest. Thats what people are complaining about.

In future contest's people should look at the rules as guidelines for their work. NewTek doesn't have any standards, and if they don't have real standards for a contest then you have to question if you should trust NewTek and their contest.

Again no. Incorrect information.

NewTek came back immediately with a response to the claim about the breaking of the rules and stated that they had not broken any rules for the entry. None of the pieces were entered on the merits of the longer piece. Nor were they judged by them. The other claims were also addressed if I remember correctly. On page one of the thread.


Some entries included a long version of the actual entry, Some included the content WITH the entry, and some submitted multiple entries. It was really interesting to see all the entries come in and what people are doing with LightWave and how they achieve certain things using the base package.



Along the way, there were some questions as to weather some things were created in LightWave or not. We anticipated this, and as such, had asked the author to email the files so we may take a peek. An example would be the 4th runner up, titled "Black Snow" - The assets were received and checked to be consistent.

And second, this thread got into a serious amount of complaining about the artistic merits of the pieces further taking a thread that was ill advised to begin with and turned it into something completely in bad taste. That and the fact that Newtek already addressed these other issues is what is being argued here.

colkai
08-16-2008, 07:34 AM
If you look at the top three winners you see nothing to do with original work. The dancing robot has been done to death using other objects. The Final Fantasy-xbox/PSP3 of the second winner isn't original.
Ahem,
Methinks thou dost confuse original ideas with original CONTENT.

If you are going to sit around waiting for a completely original idea, then you shall be waiting a very, very long time indeed methinks.

What work have you done yourself? A car render maybe, heck, been done to death, a human? how many of THEM have been done already? A house?
A battle, a fly by, a chase, explosion? You see, I defy you to produce anything that cannot be tied back to some other work in the past, as the saying goes "it's all been done".

The purpose actually was, original content, that is, resources such as textures and objects that the artist may be able to supply Newtek with without copyright infringements or hassles. Thereby allowing people who purchase LW to be able to load up scenes as used in the demo reel.

To say Newtek doesn't have any standards well, come on, take a look at what Truespace as showing as cutting edge examples of what their version can do, on Newteks worst day, they've not shown anything like that and that is on the main site as an "encouragement" to buy the thing.

frantbk
08-16-2008, 08:22 AM
Ahem,
Methinks thou dost confuse original ideas with original CONTENT.


If you are talking content than non of it was original. The dancing robot is dancing with the stars/idol in content. The Final fantasy is just that. The second and third are not original because they've been done before. Creativity on the other hand and be looked at as the retelling of a story that everyone knows, and the creativity is how well tell the story in an interesting and entertaining way.

just because you make your version of a Transformer and have them kicking each others butt, does not make it original, nor does it make it original content. What it should do is demonstrate you level of creativity by how different it is from the known content of the original work.

The_Peabody01
08-16-2008, 08:25 AM
From what some people are complaining about that the top three winners went over on the time limit.

The winning entry is 15secs.....I've just timed it, so I guess that's that one ruled out. You can see as plain as day Robotochan was done by the rules, even if NewTek didn't play by the rules themselves.

frantbk
08-16-2008, 08:26 AM
Again no. Incorrect information.

NewTek came back immediately with a response to the claim about the breaking of the rules and stated that they had not broken any rules for the entry. None of the pieces were entered on the merits of the longer piece. Nor were they judged by them. The other claims were also addressed if I remember correctly. On page one of the thread.

NewTek didn't really say anything that mattered. NewTek just said a bunch of corporate junk talk to stand by their judges. You can't address issue when your opening statement is "What the judge ruled is final" and than babble on about the contest being within the rules.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 08:38 AM
They said all they needed to say. So far there isn't a shred of actual evidence that Newtek even violated any rules. It is all just conjecture. Even the composited piece could easily be done in LW. If there was a question as they stated, they could ask for the assets.

The contest was put on by NewTek for us, not by us. It was a fun, cool thing to do. We don't regulate what they do. They decided to put on a contest for the mutual benefit of all. And since they put it on and had judges make rulings, of course they stand by it. It is after all their contest.

If you don't like the tastes of the judges, well, that's just an opinion. I think the entries where great and the thing was pulled off rather professionally.

hrgiger
08-16-2008, 10:39 AM
Again no. Incorrect information.

. None of the pieces were entered on the merits of the longer piece. Nor were they judged by them. The other claims were also addressed if I remember correctly. On page one of the thread.




Then why are we seeing a 2 minute and 30 second entry on the winners page? Why aren't they showing the 15 second winning entry? For that particular animation which was incredibly slow paced to begin, what could he have possibly shown in 15 seconds that would have been interesting? I thought one of the guidelines was that people show high energy animation?

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 10:48 AM
That's already been covered. What they decided to show in the final production has little to do with the actual contest or entries. That was the presentation. You can say they only should have showed the 15 second version. Ok fine. But that is just the presentation. Has nothing to do with the actual entry and what was judged. They had the longer piece to show, they made the call. You can't then turn that into some kind of argument that they broke the rules. The rules were to do with the entries not with what would be shown. And again that was already addressed on the first page by NT.

EDIT: It did cause some confusion, yes. But it was addressed and I really don't know why they did it. But it is their contest they are paying for the time at Siggraph. They made the call based on what they thought was best.

hrgiger
08-16-2008, 11:04 AM
I guess it's just me then. When I am linked to the winners page, I expect and hope to see the winning entries. Not entries that 'could have been' had they been under the time limit.
I'm not bitter about it because I did not have time to complete my entry so who actually won is irrelevant to me. But had I gotten my entry in, I would be pretty upset to see another entry going for over two minutes and not seeing the 15 second entry that they may have picked over mine.
So perhaps Newtek should actually post the 15 second entry there? It would stop my argument at least. I just don't actually believe there is one is the problem.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 11:11 AM
Yeah I can agree from that perspective. I just don't see it as a cause for alarm so much about the fairness of the contest because it had no bearing. The longer version was not judged and not entered as such.

At worst, it is an initial PR flub to the contest entrants. But I am guessing that they had not even anticipated getting any longer versions. They made a call.

But if I had entered the contest and seen it, I too would have been... what? But after they explained it, which they did, it would have handled it for me. No reason to blow that up into a "not playing by their own rules" claim which is the exact point being debated here - or so it is said. :hey:

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 11:30 AM
I think the main thing for me about this contest was just the fact that the robotchan was gonna be used as there main promo. It was good and funny but like I said before if I saw a commercial for Lightwave with that as the main promotion about how good Lightwave is I wouldint even think twice about let alone go out and buy a $1000 program. But yes I did enjoy there videos and I think they were well done!

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 01:17 PM
It was a contest people!

Or has anyone forgotten that?

The Robot won. You don't like that create your own sexy animation with fur and hair and see if that makes number one. Then we can all complain about how LW isn't really about the less than stellar hair plugin they added in 9.5. Or make your cloth animation win and we can all complain about the fact that we ought not to be promoting last decades cloth simulations. Take your pick.

It was a contest. There was no control over the content other than what was submitted. That is up to us.

The robot was not a marketing decision by Newtek. Sure wish you'd get it straight about that. They did the fair thing, the thing you'd expect a company with some dignity to do and that was actually rate each one on specific points, tally it up and give it to the winner.

How would you like it if the NT marketing team said, well we'll have them subbit what they want but we'll pick the coolest sexiest one for siggy because we don't want to look uncool. Then we'll tell everybody it was the winner. How lame would that be?

And this whole thing about "If I saw the robot animation...." Is ludicrous. Nobody looks at that and says, "Oh gee, look at the best LW can do. Wow! I'll take it."

No. Most people look at it and chuckle. See it for what it was as a fun animation that for what it was, was done well. And that it was done quickly and by a guy who had relatively little experience with LW was a plus. And they look at all the animations and see the variety of things created. That is what they look at.

Frankly I found it completely refreshing. Everybody is trying to be so f'n serious and sexy with all the cool animation and lighting and all of this stuff. (self included here now)

Then the thing that comes along and wins is a funny little flippant robot animation.

I thought that was so cool. I really did.

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 01:59 PM
Wow I think everybody has blown this thing way over the top and everyone is getting way to angry on both sides whats done is done whoopdee freakin doo!

hrgiger
08-16-2008, 02:06 PM
How would you like it if the NT marketing team said, well we'll have them subbit what they want but we'll pick the coolest sexiest one for siggy because we don't want to look uncool. Then we'll tell everybody it was the winner. How lame would that be?



I won't speak for anyone else, but I would have liked that. Point is, when I am looking at software, I want to see the coolest sexiest animation. I want to be seduced.

Yes, it was a contest. But I think it would be a mistake to think it was only for us. It's certainly no coincidence that Newtek made the deadline right before Siggraph. To say that it was merely a contest for us and to showcase us artists was Newteks primary goal is being naive. It was a pure marketing campaign to generate new material to show off at Siggraph. As they were giving prizes, I don't think anyone cared for the why. But hey, if that's what they want to show, it's their company. Whatever. Just don't argue the fact that some of us might have differing opinions about it.

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Surrealist.

How would you like it if the NT marketing team said, well we'll have them subbit what they want but we'll pick the coolest sexiest one for siggy because we don't want to look uncool. Then we'll tell everybody it was the winner. How lame would that be?



Matter of fact I think they should open up the rules a lil more and blatantly called the contest: BEST and "KEWL" Animation Contest, they can use Combustion & After Effects, thye got 4 months and add a seat of Zbrush to a seat of Lightwave, Sasquatch or Fprime.

Muthaf**kas would come out of the woodworks.
CGtalk does it and its very effective.


Humble Opinion anyway.


I can see some reading this ..going well you just saying that because you like that "kewl" style and I would answer..and so does the all the 16-28 year olds demographic who are deciding to go to college, go see Iron Man, Batman II, Hulk, Hellboy and buy PS3-Xbox en mass.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 02:53 PM
Yeah I agree. If you want to make it a cool contest. Make it so. Very good point. I just mean having that as a hidden agenda.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 02:55 PM
I won't speak for anyone else, but I would have liked that. Point is, when I am looking at software, I want to see the coolest sexiest animation. I want to be seduced.

Yes, it was a contest. But I think it would be a mistake to think it was only for us. It's certainly no coincidence that Newtek made the deadline right before Siggraph. To say that it was merely a contest for us and to showcase us artists was Newteks primary goal is being naive. It was a pure marketing campaign to generate new material to show off at Siggraph. As they were giving prizes, I don't think anyone cared for the why. But hey, if that's what they want to show, it's their company. Whatever. Just don't argue the fact that some of us might have differing opinions about it.

I never said it was only for us. I said it was for us. It was our contest that NT also got something from in the way of assets and a demo of what can be done in a short time. It was a win win. And I am well aware that it was for Sigraph. They said so in the beginning if I remember. That was part of my whole point. Regardless of why they did it, we got something out of it.

As to the marketing angle I can not even comment I guess because it is not my field. I don't work at Newtek, I don't see the numbers.

I just think for us, it was cool. They asked us to put 15 seconds of our best work forward in a short period of time.

If that failed and NT believed in us as a marketing angle, then we failed NT not the other way around.

SplineGod
08-16-2008, 03:02 PM
I dont have a problem with the contest or the winners.
Its a matter of showing what is appropriate in the proper venue.
There used to be something called the Wavey awards which was the proper venue to show off material like this.
Siggraph is a place to show off professional work at a level that will convince people that you have a serious app that does serious work and get you to buy that app.

Its like a demo reel. You dont show anything that makes you look weak. We all know that. Siggraph is Newteks time to show the absolute BEST work AND DEMONSTRATIONS of LW. The cartoony stuff or DAVE school student work is NOT what should be shown at siggraph. If you dont think is has an effect on what people buy then read this. A friend of my wifes husband was sent to siggraph by the studio he works out to scope out some other 3d apps.
This is what she told my wife:
Decided to hit Siggraph 2008 today with A. He's all geeky when it comes to nerd expos. We stopped by one of the bigger booths on the floor, Newtek Inc who make a 3D software. We sat in the back for a while watching a guy demo. Looked like Dr. Suess crap. He didn't tell me anything of substinance and to be quite honest, we walked away unsold on that particular software based on what he was showing. Needless to say, when we sat down in the audience we were around 40 strong, by the time his show was over there were around 6 of us.
What was awesome was Sony giving away PSP Lites by dropping your business card into a bowl. They gave away 12 in the 2 hours we were there.
I did not win one.

As I said in the other thread, her husband ended up purchasing 4 seats of C4D.
Many others I know who went by Newteks booth again were embarresed by the demos just like last year. We all scratch our heads because this is how they do it every year. Last year I went with some coworkers who were unfamiliar with LW to newteks booth. They were confused as to why Newtek was showing off the lame cartoony stuff instead of the kind of things we were doing at work.

We-Co
08-16-2008, 03:05 PM
Wow, yes they should obey the rules, but now your just sounding like babies and haters.

shrox
08-16-2008, 03:41 PM
...Many others I know who went by Newteks booth again were embarresed by the demos just like last year. We all scratch our heads because this is how they do it every year. Last year I went with some coworkers who were unfamiliar with LW to newteks booth. They were confused as to why Newtek was showing off the lame cartoony stuff instead of the kind of things we were doing at work.

It is true. I see that too.

One reason I don't go to many shows anymore is because I am tired of seeing cool stuff that my employer won't buy.

IMI
08-16-2008, 04:13 PM
...Dr. Suess crap...
...He didn't tell me anything of substinance...
...lame cartoony stuff...


"substinance"? :D

Well, it sounds as if the "lame cartoony stuff" such as the "Dr. Suess crap" wouldn't have been appreciated even if it was the best lame cartoony crap created in the history of the world, and anything anyone had to say about it would have been even far less than unsubstitantialistic. ;)

Every time I ask this question here, nobody answers: Do we know for sure NT wants LW to be Maya, max, XSI... ? Houdini, Blender, m***?
Perhaps they're proud of their lame cartoony stuff. There is at least a pretty good market for it, and alot of people doing it.

Of course, I'm now reminded of what shrox here recently said about his achievements in the game design world with LW going largely ignored by NT (which is tragic). Maybe it's time for NT to find a niche and stick with it.

AbnRanger
08-16-2008, 04:15 PM
That's already been covered. What they decided to show in the final production has little to do with the actual contest or entries. That was the presentation. You can say they only should have showed the 15 second version. Ok fine. But that is just the presentation. Has nothing to do with the actual entry and what was judged. They had the longer piece to show, they made the call. You can't then turn that into some kind of argument that they broke the rules. The rules were to do with the entries not with what would be shown. And again that was already addressed on the first page by NT.

EDIT: It did cause some confusion, yes. But it was addressed and I really don't know why they did it. But it is their contest they are paying for the time at Siggraph. They made the call based on what they thought was best.What you are forgeting here is that a 2.5 min entry has the potential to impress judges more (than its 15 sec counterparts) even if NT claims they only judged the first 15 sec.
Yeah, Right?...and you believe that? You're telling me that they cut it off after 15 sec and refused to watch the rest, as to remain impartial. I've got a bridge in the middle of the Atlantic ocean to sell you, then. :D

I'm sure they watched it in its entirety (and whether they admit it or not), and it made some impression on them...that wouldn't have been made otherwise. And why even submit something so lengthy when the contest rules CLEARLY stated it was to be limited to 15 sec. That tells me that they already had the project in their back pocket before the contest ever came up.

For what it's worth, I doubt the second entry used Poser models...it didn't look like it to me. I was impressed with the work, myself and thought either it or Eugeny's project deserved first place, IMHO.

AbnRanger
08-16-2008, 04:29 PM
It was a contest people!

Or has anyone forgotten that?

The Robot won. You don't like that create your own sexy animation with fur and hair and see if that makes number one. Then we can all complain about how LW isn't really about the less than stellar hair plugin they added in 9.5. Or make your cloth animation win and we can all complain about the fact that we ought not to be promoting last decades cloth simulations. Take your pick.

It was a contest. There was no control over the content other than what was submitted. That is up to us.

The robot was not a marketing decision by Newtek. Sure wish you'd get it straight about that. They did the fair thing, the thing you'd expect a company with some dignity to do and that was actually rate each one on specific points, tally it up and give it to the winner.

How would you like it if the NT marketing team said, well we'll have them subbit what they want but we'll pick the coolest sexiest one for siggy because we don't want to look uncool. Then we'll tell everybody it was the winner. How lame would that be?

And this whole thing about "If I saw the robot animation...." Is ludicrous. Nobody looks at that and says, "Oh gee, look at the best LW can do. Wow! I'll take it."

No. Most people look at it and chuckle. See it for what it was as a fun animation that for what it was, was done well. And that it was done quickly and by a guy who had relatively little experience with LW was a plus. And they look at all the animations and see the variety of things created. That is what they look at.

Frankly I found it completely refreshing. Everybody is trying to be so f'n serious and sexy with all the cool animation and lighting and all of this stuff. (self included here now)

Then the thing that comes along and wins is a funny little flippant robot animation.

I thought that was so cool. I really did.Again, the entire theme for the contest goes hand in hand with Newtek's marketing purposes...that is to promote "What LW can do in the hands of a talented Artist."
That's the mission statment for both the contest, and for Newtek marketing in general. So, when NT chooses a winner, they are choosing the entry THAT BEST FITS THE MISSION STATEMENT...lookie, lookie everbody...here's what you can do if you buy a seat of Lighwave!!!
You're saying the contest has nothing to do with marketing...Wha'? Go 'git yourself a cup of coffee and come back to the discussion :D

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 04:36 PM
"substinance"? :D

Well, it sounds as if the "lame cartoony stuff" such as the "Dr. Suess crap" wouldn't have been appreciated even if it was the best lame cartoony crap created in the history of the world, and anything anyone had to say about it would have been even far less than unsubstitantialistic. ;)

(which is tragic). Maybe it's time for NT to find a niche and stick with it.


I think a lot of folks are missing the point time and time again.
LIGHTWAVE ALREADY HAS THE "best lame cartoony crap created in the history of the world" AWARD ... its has gutted the galleries and siggraph shows to death. It ain't like its a lack in their tool chest. Its on T-shirts.

I would like one Siggraph where it was nothing but film, tv and game sequences all three floor days. I tell yah...when Modo gets all animation and particle system in it, Brad gonna go all marketting hard-core gamer while Newtek will be competing with BIG BUNNY "free app" audience.

AbnRanger
08-16-2008, 04:42 PM
Wow, yes they should obey the rules, but now your just sounding like babies and haters.What does the title of the thread say? It is what it is...some after thoughts. I'm not sure what it's like where you live, but America is a free country...free to opinionate...to agree and to disagree. Do we need to check with you first before doing so?

We-Co
08-16-2008, 04:50 PM
What does the title of the thread say? It is what it is...some after thoughts. I'm not sure what it's like where you live, but America is a free country...free to opinionate...to agree and to disagree. Do we need to check with you first before doing so?

Nobody loves America more than me, I'm just saying this conversation got pointless when everybody knew that NewTek is not going to change the decision whether or not they followed the rules. Your and my opinion doesn't matter at this point, or does it?!?!

IMI
08-16-2008, 04:54 PM
Again, the entire theme for the contest goes hand in hand with Newtek's marketing purposes...that is to promote "What LW can do in the hands of a talented Artist."
That's the mission statment for both the contest, and for Newtek marketing in general. So, when NT chooses a winner, they are choosing the entry THAT BEST FITS THE MISSION STATEMENT...lookie, lookie everbody...here's what you can do if you buy a seat of Lighwave!!!
You're saying the contest has nothing to do with marketing...Wha'? Go 'git yourself a cup of coffee and come back to the discussion :D

It wouldn't be wrong to say that robot animation was "What LW can do in the hands of a talented Artist.". It may not have conformed to alot of people's idea of 3D done by talented people, many of whom probably equate "good" 3D animation as the best impersonation of reality as possible.
Well, not only that, but it can be done with LW... by those who choose to go that route.

Well, I'd just like to take this opportunity to stick up for Robot Guy. I thought it was cool, as I thought ALL the winners and demo reel animations were pretty well done. Was it the best possible, was it the best submitted? That's purely subjective, but it did in fact win.
Jeez, I would hate to be him and have to read through all this. He's doing an admirable job of biting his tongue, I'd say, considering all the vitriol being tossed his way. It's not like he himself posted the video and said "Look what I did - the greatest LW animation ever!", which would open him up for this kind of abuse.
I would hope that professional adults could be a little more restrained with their unsolicited criticisms. Unless you feel personally slighted, what does it matter, anyway, who won? And if so, your problem is with NT, not with another member. IMO, it would probably be a little more professional and adult to keep the personal, unsolicited comments out of it.

Rock on, Robot dude! You won the contest, and you had your work highlighted at SIGGRAPH. Regardless of what anyone thinks about it here, it'll look good on your resume. And, you'll only improve in the future. I suspect in the end that counts for more. :)

IMI
08-16-2008, 05:00 PM
I would like one Siggraph where it was nothing but film, tv and game sequences all three floor days. I tell yah...when Modo gets all animation and particle system in it, Brad gonna go all marketting hard-core gamer while Newtek will be competing with BIG BUNNY "free app" audience.

Oh, I agree, and for that matter, I'm a proud modo user and actually a closet modo fan. Well, I guess not anymore. ;)
I'm only defending NT's right to be what they want to be. I have no personal stake in either their success or their failure, but you can drive yourself crazy really wanting something from someone, while they consistently fail to deliver. At that point it's time to move on, not to try to recreate them in your image.

IMI
08-16-2008, 05:51 PM
AbnRanger, BTW, even though I quoted you above, I wasn't saying you are being disrespectful or insulting the winner.
I just went off on a tangent there, and I quoted you just to disagree with the part about it not having conformed to their purpose.

AbnRanger
08-16-2008, 05:57 PM
It wouldn't be wrong to say that robot animation was "What LW can do in the hands of a talented Artist.". It may not have conformed to alot of people's idea of 3D done by talented people, many of whom probably equate "good" 3D animation as the best impersonation of reality as possible.Well, I initially chimed in to support Eugeny's question about rules being broken. He was being called a sore loser, and undeservedly so.
Beyond the rules issue, the other artists who worked their marbles off with VERY high detailed models and well executed animations...only to be upstaged by a primitive model of a robot, borrowed from an introductory modeling class. What a slap in the face, to these guys. They might not say it, but I bet they certainly feel it.

I doubt a single person here believes the winning entry was the best example of the group, to demonstrate what LW is capable of producing.
If you do...I have a bridge in middle of the Atlantic to sell you. Better hurry, Surrealist and Newtek are considering the purchase too! :D

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 06:03 PM
Nobody loves America more than me, I'm just saying this conversation got pointless when everybody knew that NewTek is not going to change the decision whether or not they followed the rules. Your and my opinion doesn't matter at this point, or does it?!?!

Ya just like voting for who should be the next president or even discussing it are opinions and the things we think wont change anything so keep it to yourself? I think Newtek is looking for opinions and needs to know what there users like and dislike I think that's part of why these forums are here so I think we should definitely feel free to voice are opinions and yes even argue and fight a little.:argue:

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 06:04 PM
GO AbnRanger WHOO WHOO!!

We-Co
08-16-2008, 06:04 PM
Ya just like voting for who should be the next president or even discussing it are opinions and the things we think wont change anything so keep it to yourself? I think Newtek is looking for opinions and needs to know what there users like and dislike I think that's part of why these forums are here so I think we should definitely feel free to voice are opinions and yes even argue and fight a little.:argue:

Right, and I think you already did that. :thumbsup:

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 06:07 PM
........ good point but more fighting = more fun right? hmmm maybe not....

IMI
08-16-2008, 06:24 PM
Well, I initially chimed in to support Eugeny's question about rules being broken. He was being called a sore loser, and undeservedly so.
Beyond the rules issue, the other artists who worked their marbles off with VERY high detailed models and well executed animations...only to be upstaged by a primitive model of a robot, borrowed from an introductory modeling class. What a slap in the face, to these guys. They might not say it, but I bet they certainly feel it.

I doubt a single person here believes the winning entry was the best example of the group, to demonstrate what LW is capable of producing.
If you do...I have a bridge in middle of the Atlantic to sell you. Better hurry, Surrealist and Newtek are considering the purchase too! :D

Well I agree about the rules being broken, but that's not what I was talking about - I only meant about the winner, who didn't break the rules.

I also felt some sort of need to point out that the winner... won... at least according to NewTek - and it was their contest, after all.
However hard anyone else may have worked, however inferior other people see the winner's entry as having been, the fact remains that's NewTek's deal, since they made the decision, and I think it's out of line to publicly insult the guy's work, when all he did was render the animation, not render the decision.

Do *I* think it was the best? No, but I think it was pretty good as far as promo stuff goes. I think by doing what he did, he knew exactly what they were wanting, and I also think that's a sign of someone with a talent to know what the "client" is looking for, so I have to respect it for that. That is the bottom line in this business after all - deliver what the client wants.

Again, though, were the intentions of NewTek ill-communicated? Maybe, maybe not. The winner seems to have understood what they wanted. Maybe everyone else read more into it than was intended. Maybe the WOW! Factor never played a part to begin with.
Is it possible NT liked it because of its simplicity?
In any event, I maintain it would be better policy for people to direct their anger or shame towards NT, not towards the guy who won the contest. Meaning, in private, since there's probably no way to berate NT without also berating the winner.

AbnRanger
08-16-2008, 06:38 PM
For what it's worth...I seriously question NEWTEK's decision...an egregiously poor one, IMHO...not Dominic for his work. If he felt it sufficient to enter a simple bouncing ball animation, that's fine and dandy. Doesn't make a difference to me, one bit. BUT...when Newtek shuns the hard work of the other artists in favor of the bouncing ball (which this robot is mighty close to), I don't give a damn about diplomacy. I'm going to speak my piece.
And you're certainly free to speak yours.

You are right, though...Newtek made their bed...now they have to lay in it. Money out of their pocket, not mine. I seriously doubt these other artists will feel motivated to enter any future contest, though. Once bitten, twice shy, methinks.

cohominous
08-16-2008, 06:43 PM
Man, this has really turned into a contentious subject. It's too bad too, because when you think about it, Newtek held this contest for us.

I'll say it again... they did it for us. If they were really solely concerned about marketing for a trade show, don't you suppose they could have gone to a kick-a** Lightwave creative house and hired them to do the reel - or tapped a select few users to do it? They didn't have to include this community at all. We would have been none the wiser and had an amazing demo... and then we'd be reading threads about how we never have any contests.

Did they break their own rules? Who knows? They came out and said they didn't... who are we to call them liars with no real evidence? Don't they deserve more than that?

Some of you are saying NewTek did Lightwave a disservice by picking a sub-par (not my opinion) winner. You know who's doing a HUGE disservice to Lightwave?

We are.

We have multiple threads on this forum complaining about this contest- and actually trashing other users work! It's disappointing. That would make ME really eager to join it.

Before I got Lightwave, I had worked with Alias/Wavefront (yes I'm old), Softimage, Strata and (long ago) Lightwave. When it came time for my company to get a 3d package, I CAME TO THIS BOARD to see what the community was like. At that time, it was FILLED with people eager to share encouragement, techniques and knowledge and never made people feel stupid for being a noob. That was the deciding factor.

To everyone's credit, it's still mostly that way. It's known by other software users for being a great forum to learn.

But I've seen a shift in attitude lately. We now have threads trashing another member's use of pre-made content to express an artistic idea. It got so bad the author asked for all his threads to be removed. That's not the community I joined. Don't you realize that up until VERY recently NONE OF US (3d artists) were taken seriously by the art community? We were ALL seen as button-mashers.

But back to the point. I have no problem with users expressing their opinions. But can't we show some respect for fellow users and their work? You didn't win. It sucks. Be gracious and respectful if you're going to make comments. The Dommo is new to Lightwave and how have some treated his hard work? With derision.

All he did was enter a contest... and he won. (AbnRanger is one of the few to clarify) He obviously has some talent. Do we want to lose someone who already chose Lightwave because some members have bruised feelings? Or how about the hundreds of visitors a day who are trying to decide which package to choose? Is this what we want them to see? Multiple threads of complaining about Newtek, Lightwave, our fellow community and each others opinions?

Let's not make Newtek sorry they tried to do something for us. They made some mistakes. We let them know. Let's give them a chance to see how they handle it in the future.

There are so many talented, helpful people on this forum. Let's show we can be gracious and civil - even in disagreement. Someplace Lightwave users can feel good to be a part of.

Now.. Let's all sing Kumbaya. :) (Had to lighten things up a little.)

Tippsy
08-16-2008, 06:55 PM
Look I don't think anyone is "trashing" anyone's work almost everyone here has said they are not after anyone work! Just because its peoples opinions then we shouldn't feel free to express them? You have your opinions I have mine and so does everyone else I think we should be fine about discussing things that happened.

Although yes some people have gotten a little far out of hand but there's always gonna be somebody that thinks different that's why we have such diverse and wonderful 3d work!

Julez4001
08-16-2008, 07:13 PM
because when you think about it, Newtek held this contest for us.

I'll say it again... they did it for us. If they were really solely concerned about marketing for a trade show, don't you suppose they could have gone to a kick-a** Lightwave creative house and hired them to do the reel - or tapped a select few users to do it? They didn't have to include this community at all.
Now.. Let's all sing Kumbaya. :) (Had to lighten things up a little.)

However they may have to flip a bill to get the kicka$$ creative house to do so. As others have mentioned, the timing was short for a lot of folks, certainly I would have wanted to, but I knew I couldn't get anything (I would precieve as) worthy out.
I think about the 9.2 community reel and how it had a broad venue of talent.

Newtek needs MORE CONTEST (especially if they are not going to join the other 3d apps under CGTALKs' various contests) but they have to know that the folks out here are watching them.
CGTalk went through this same process albeit under slightly different subject matter.

IMI
08-16-2008, 07:47 PM
For what it's worth...I seriously question NEWTEK's decision...an egregiously poor one, IMHO...not Dominic for his work. If he felt it sufficient to enter a simple bouncing ball animation, that's fine and dandy. Doesn't make a difference to me, one bit. BUT...when Newtek shuns the hard work of the other artists in favor of the bouncing ball (which this robot is mighty close to), I don't give a damn about diplomacy. I'm going to speak my piece.



Well, you're certainly within your rights to question their decision, but I have to question the thought behind it being made so publicly known what you think. Because you're either preaching to the choir, or fanning the flames - either way, people either agree or disagree and need no convincing or argument.
But I have to disagree about the "...hard work of the other artists..." part. Who's to say it wasn't hard work for the winner? Equally, does "Hard Work" alone qualify someone for extra points? Also, who's to say one person's idea of "hard work" is somehow more valid than some other person's?

In the end, it's a matter of opinion. One person's experience of what is Hard Work may be another person's opinion of a bad day at the office. In other words, anything which fails to conform to the rules of the contest is fair game for the most obnoxious criticism imaginable, but you can't use your own personal definition of Hard Work to say one entry was lesser than another. It's all relative - to a professional animator with loads of experience, it's probably a very simple thing, while to a n00b, it's probably a major achievement, and just as much "hard work".
What, you don't remember when you were green? ;)

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 07:55 PM
Look I don't think anyone is "trashing" anyone's work almost everyone here has said they are not after anyone work! Just because its peoples opinions then we shouldn't feel free to express them? You have your opinions I have mine and so does everyone else I think we should be fine about discussing things that happened.

Although yes some people have gotten a little far out of hand but there's always gonna be somebody that thinks different that's why we have such diverse and wonderful 3d work!

Yes opinions are fine. I mentioned that pages ago. The point is and the thing that was lacking is we were given a contest, some guys won and literally within hours this thread starts up - he even posted a link to it in the winners page to draw attention to it - and next thing you know the thing gets dragged down starting from pointing the finger at NewTek and immediately it lowered itself to trashing the work of the artists who won, unfairly and in very bad taste when you consider that this is the community the contest was for.

Yes we all have opinions. But we also have manners. And we should know when - despite our opinions - to show some respect and do the right thing.

We would not have words like respect, manners, polite and so on if it was not easy to just state or opinion. Stating one's opinion is easy. Anybody can do that. How many people can stop, think and decide. This is not the time. Now is the time to put that aside and show some respect for the people who won the contest we were given to show what we can do.

That is not too much to ask. Is it?

You would not get so much complaining and arguing about the lack of respect if people would have just known when to clamp it. Suck it up and just say, despite all, congrats! In this instance on the day the contest winners were announced, that was the right thing to do.

As far as the Marketing decisions that NetTek made that does not even need to enter into it here. Certainly not if it means - now at the time the contest winners were just announced - having to make derogatory statements about the artists who won.

What happened here put into another context is like having an awards show at a film festival and having all of the filmmakers jump up and start a shouting match right after the awards because as soon as the winners were announced one of the loosing favorites stood up and shouted "The contest was fixed! They broke the rules! The people who won should not have been allowed to enter!" And then that immediately turned into a wild discussion and debate about the artistic merits of the films that won.

There is a time and place for everything and even in this instance if there were some rules broken there could have been many more polite respectful ways to handle it - in the view of the fact that this is our community of artists.

IMI
08-16-2008, 08:01 PM
Look I don't think anyone is "trashing" anyone's work almost everyone here has said they are not after anyone work! Just because its peoples opinions then we shouldn't feel free to express them? You have your opinions I have mine and so does everyone else I think we should be fine about discussing things that happened.


And if in the course of discussing someone's perceived failure of the contest it becomes necessary to trash all the winners, but particularly the first place winner's entry, all is good? That's what you're saying?



Although yes some people have gotten a little far out of hand but there's always gonna be somebody that thinks different that's why we have such diverse and wonderful 3d work!

Diverse and wonderful describe the works of the community. There's nothing particularly diverse or wonderful about schadenfreude directed at a third party, via someone else.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 08:17 PM
What does the title of the thread say? It is what it is...some after thoughts. I'm not sure what it's like where you live, but America is a free country...free to opinionate...to agree and to disagree. Do we need to check with you first before doing so?

Yes and also free not to. And also free to know when it is not the right time to say something - like hours after the contest on the forum and in the thread the winners were announced (he posted a link to it in the winners thread). In the community that the contest winners are from.

And regarding all the other stuff you said. I am not going to go into a debate here. I respect you have other opinions about what I have to say. I don't have a problem what that at all.

I have said what I had to say and I am OK with it.

I just thought this thread needed a little levity on the other side is all and that has been done.

At this point a little respect for the artists at this time is all I ask. Can't make people do that of course. But you can ask and it can make people think about it. Next time we have a contest for whatever reason and in whatever capacity maybe we can think again before rolling out the opinions about the winners.

That is my opinion.

John Jordan
08-16-2008, 08:21 PM
There was a contest?

AbnRanger
08-16-2008, 08:24 PM
There was a contest?Not anymore...we tore it all to shreds. :D

IMI
08-16-2008, 08:34 PM
Not anymore...we tore it all to shreds. :D

But, it lived on.
A day that will live in infamy for NewTek, and a day of remembrence for the winner - a tale to tell one's grandchildren for one, while a subject to slowly fade into lost memory for others and.... and... what was I saying?

Well, you get the idea ;)

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 08:51 PM
What you are forgeting here is that a 2.5 min entry has the potential to impress judges more (than its 15 sec counterparts) even if NT claims they only judged the first 15 sec.
Yeah, Right?...and you believe that? You're telling me that they cut it off after 15 sec and refused to watch the rest.


But..... I did want to address this. :D

The way I understood it was that there were two versions sent in. One for the contest and one, I can only suspect was longer because it was the piece the shorter one was from. Just an idea.



Some entries included a long version of the actual entry

And yes I believe that they did watch the 15 minute version and judged that. Of course. Why would I believe otherwise?

It would be more consistent with a lair to show the 15 minute version yet judge the longer one. Especially when the longer one is so much blatantly longer and way over the limit. I have a hard time believing that showing the longer version was something they did thinking they could fool people.

If you do, then that is your opinion of NT. Not a very high one. But an opinion none the less. Nothing based on fact or even any evidence really because you were not one of the judges and as far as I know you don't have some insider information we don't have.


Thank you for expressing your concern, I appreciate it, and hopefully by answering this post, we may be able to clear up any questions.

First off I would like to personally say not only did I enjoy watching The w.i.p. threads, I also enjoyed seeing the final animations. Some of them are simply steller, considering the very short time frame, and limited 3rd party plugin use. This really shows the true power of what can be done with LightWave in a tight deadline situation.

The contest was essentially to add some interactivity to the user forums, generate some future content and to show off what can be done in a tight deadline.

I would like to take a second to explain exactly how the judging was done. I don't think it really needs to be justified, as the judges decisions are final. However, personally, I believe that it would be important for some to understand the process.

The judging was based off of the following criteria:
Originality / Creativity - 50%
Cinematography / Direction - 35%
Quality of assets - 15%

We basically wanted to see originality over quality of assets for this particular contest. The reason for this, as stated, was the possibility to include such files in the future as content, and we cannot, unfortunately, risk the chance of copyright infringement.

Each item was based on a scale from 1 to 10 (10 being best). The video clips were looped and the judges scored it based on each instance of the criteria. Once they scored based on "Originality / Creativity", they then moved on to score it based on "Cinematography / Direction" .. then on to quality of assets. Once this process was complete, the numbers were added and checked by several other people to ensure they were correct. This is how we arrived at the final 4.

I can say, it was real close between several of the entries towards the end.

Along the way, there were some questions as to weather some things were created in LightWave or not. We anticipated this, and as such, had asked the author to email the files so we may take a peek. An example would be the 4th runner up, titled "Black Snow" - The assets were received and checked to be consistent.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/contest/images/ss_1.jpg

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/contest/images/ss_3.jpg


Some entries included a long version of the actual entry, Some included the content WITH the entry, and some submitted multiple entries. It was really interesting to see all the entries come in and what people are doing with LightWave and how they achieve certain things using the base package.

Off the record, I will say there were some outstanding entries, and I have my personal favorites, that, unfortunately did not make it. This doesn't mean they are no good. On the contrary, it just simply means that based on the criteria to judge by, some fit the bill well.

I hope that helps clear things up for anyone reading this.

shrox
08-16-2008, 08:56 PM
Car analogy ahead!

You know, even stock cars don't race what you get off the showroom floor. Allow third party plug-ins, and premium gas.

John Jordan
08-16-2008, 09:06 PM
Why is it bad taste to complain about the winners not following the rules? NewTek is the problem here not the winners of the contest. NewTek set down standards for a contest then gave the winning prize to people that didn't meet that standard. The people that followed the rules of the contest got screwed.


I agree completely. It's not the winners' fault, but the staff that sat in judgement. There seems to be a disconnect between LW and its customers and this just seems to add to that argument.
I guess everyone will be a little more cautious when LW10 is calling for submissions.
That said, I liked all the entries for what they were. Were they showreel quality? I guess not all were but I enjoyed them all nonetheless.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 09:07 PM
Again no evidence of any of that. So the point is completely moot.

John Jordan
08-16-2008, 09:26 PM
Again no evidence of any of that. So the point is completely moot.

I have a bridge you may be interested in for a low, low price.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 09:29 PM
Second time somebody has said that.

Boy, if you are that paranoid and suspicious and you want to turn this into some kind of "contest conspiracy" go a head, make a scene. :D

EDIT: and I can see the NT team now wringing their hands together, "Oh boy and then we'll show the 2.5 minute entry and nobody will suspect a thing.. hahhahahahahahhahah.... and about that composited entry..... they'll be none the wiser.... such fools.....hahahahahahah.. Then we vcan get into the brige real estate market.... yeah.......

shrox
08-16-2008, 09:40 PM
Second time somebody has said that.

Boy, if you are that paranoid and suspicious and you want to turn this into some kind of "contest conspiracy" go a head, make a scene. :D

EDIT: and I can see the NT team now wringing their hands together, "Oh boy and then we'll show the 2.5 minute entry and nobody will suspect a thing.. hahhahahahahahhahah.... and about that composited entry..... they'll be none the wiser.... such fools.....hahahahahahah.. Then we vcan get into the brige real estate market.... yeah.......

I can imagine the scene, all dressed up like Rocky Horror Picture Show...

http://www.dvdrama.com/imagescrit/rocky_horror_picture_show_2.jpg

John Jordan
08-16-2008, 09:40 PM
I'm not paranoid or suspicious but I think a business has to be careful how it runs its operations. I guess we disagree on that point.

Surrealist.
08-16-2008, 10:21 PM
Well, I don't know if we disagree on that. I think they should. I think it was ill advised to show a longer version of he entry and not expect some flak. But once they did and then explained it, it was good enough for me. And that was all the way back on page one of the thread. Yet, still, how many pages later we are still having people bring this up as if it is a fact which there is no real evidence of. And when you consider that this ignited a flaming match of the artistic merits of the films I consider it blatantly irresponsible to perpetuate it with a sort of amnesia to what has gone before and a continued lack of respect for the entrants of the contest as well as NewTek when as far as we can tell, still there is no evidence of actual foul play on the part of anyone. Contrary to some popular belief trust goes a lot farther than suspicion. In fact the US justice system is supposed to be built around that very truth and a person is innocent until proven guilty. The behavior of people on this thread should give you all the evidence you need to support the fact that as a society we have not outgrown the need for such a precaution built into the laws to protect the innocent. If left to peoples opinions and emotions and feelings regarding given subjects and circumstances, we'd have, well, the dark ages again. I thought we were supposed to be evolved past the stage of witch hunts. But apparently we have not.

It is quite a tribute to NewTeks tolerance of people's opinions of them to even allow this thread to continue.

Shrox - very funny. :D

Tippsy
08-17-2008, 12:50 AM
Wayyyyyyy to deep for me!!!

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 01:51 AM
I'm bowing out of the post-show slamfest. To all the contestants who busted their bum on this, bang-up job guys...even if your work seemed to go unrewarded. Really impressive, especially considering the short deadline. :thumbsup:

colkai
08-17-2008, 04:31 AM
If nought else, all this backlash against the contest would make me think twice about submitting for one in future, if a piece of my work was selected then the decision tore into as it has been here, I'd be, at best, gutted.

Sometimes, people can look to long at something and start to see patterns where there are none. I don't think any of these "after-thoughts" have helped anything or anyone.

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 05:08 AM
Cheers to that. Imagine one minute you won. Your animation is at Siggy full screen you have a small interview on the front page of NT website along with your winning entry. You have no idea why you won, your just a newbie but you stayed up late and kept at it just like every one else with some bit of hope but are happy with your submission for what it is. And so you are so happy you can not sleep. Life is good. Within a few hours you check into the website see that there is this full fledged flame war against your work, people saying all this stuff about it. Instantly you go from on top of the world down to a knot in your stomach wondering what hit you.

A shame really. Would be one thing if this was the broad theater of life and it was the critics flaming you. But your own group of artists in the community. Like all of the actors getting together at an after party of the Academy Awards and stringing up the guy who won best actor. What kind of group would you consider that?

The upside is, if you look at this as a microcosm of larger things, this is a good sign. Show me one person with a large amount of success that does not have his detractors and is not continually panned in the press. Seems the bigger the success the harder they like to see e'm fall. I'd say this kid has a bright future.

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 06:57 AM
Cheers to that. Imagine one minute you won. Your animation is at Siggy full screen you have a small interview on the front page of NT website along with your winning entry. You have no idea why you won, your just a newbie but you stayed up late and kept at it just like every one else with some bit of hope but are happy with your submission for what it is. And so you are so happy you can not sleep. Life is good. Within a few hours you check into the website see that there is this full fledged flame war against your work, people saying all this stuff about it. Instantly you go from on top of the world down to a knot in your stomach wondering what hit you.

A shame really. Would be one thing if this was the broad theater of life and it was the critics flaming you. But your own group of artists in the community. Like all of the actors getting together at an after party of the Academy Awards and stringing up the guy who won best actor. What kind of group would you consider that?

The upside is, if you look at this as a microcosm of larger things, this is a good sign. Show me one person with a large amount of success that does not have his detractors and is not continually panned in the press. Seems the bigger the success the harder they like to see e'm fall. I'd say this kid has a bright future.This is the first time I can ever recall saying anything remotely negative about a contest or entries therein (I felt it was egregious to the other artists enough to speak up instead of playing nice and dignified like). There IS a time, true enough, to show courtesy, sportsmanship and manners...but there are also some rare occasions when it's necessary to ditch the formalities and fake gestures of sportsmanship, and call a spade a spade.
You're trying to frame it as if people are just taking swipes at everyone's work, like it's Open Season or something. That's just not the case at all.
We're talking about ONE simple robot. I am not criticizing it on it's own merits, but in relation to the other entries, because the gap was so collosal. And this comes after Larry Shultz and other forum members pleaded with Newtek to stop putting amateur work on display over professional work. Damned if they didn't do it again...maybe just for spite. Nothing personal against DAVE school students or Dominic's robot. He didn't choose his own work over the others...It was Newtek doing it
You think it's proper to bite your tongue. I think not in this one unique case.

frantbk
08-17-2008, 06:58 AM
I have a bridge you may be interested in for a low, low price.

There is also the legal issues, because prize's with dollar values were given to the winners, unless there is some fine print somewhere. Not following the contest rules, if proved, could lead to legal action against NewTek. remember the Harrier jet from the movie True Lies. He contest winner had all the point for the jet. That person sued the contest for breaking the contest rules and not giving him the full scale mockup of the Harrier Jet.

frantbk
08-17-2008, 07:02 AM
Well, I don't know if we disagree on that. I think they should. I think it was ill advised to show a longer version of he entry and not expect some flak. But once they did and then explained it, it was good enough for me.

If that is the case than why are you still trying to convince people? You are not going to change my view, or many of the other people here who are telling you that NewTek had hurt their reputation with this contest. It doesn't really matter what NewTek said on page one. There actions do not follow their talk, nor did their actions comply with the rules of the contest. NewTek screwed up and NewTek needs to own up to that.

cohominous
08-17-2008, 07:12 AM
Uh.. I get what you're saying, but...that guy lost.

cohominous
08-17-2008, 07:13 AM
I'm outta here.

The_Peabody01
08-17-2008, 07:19 AM
For what it's worth...I seriously question NEWTEK's decision...an egregiously poor one, IMHO...not Dominic for his work. If he felt it sufficient to enter a simple bouncing ball animation, that's fine and dandy. Doesn't make a difference to me, one bit. BUT...when Newtek shuns the hard work of the other artists in favor of the bouncing ball (which this robot is mighty close to.

So your not having a go about Dominics work - yet a few comments later, compare it to a bouncy ball. I don't think thats very nice. You can see plain as day it was better than that! The Robot isn't close to a bouncy ball it all... for one the Robot doesn't bounce. It took a lot more to animate than a silly bouncy ball. It actually dances... or didn't you realise?

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 07:27 AM
I'm bowing out of the post-show slamfest. To all the contestants who busted their bum on this, bang-up job guys...even if your work seemed to go unrewarded. Really impressive, especially considering the short deadline. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 07:35 AM
So your not having a go about Dominics work - yet a few comments later, compare it to a bouncy ball. I don't think thats very nice. You can see plain as day it was better than that! The Robot isn't close to a bouncy ball it all... for one the Robot doesn't bounce. It took a lot more to animate than a silly bouncy ball. It actually dances... or didn't you realise?
Hey...now we're getting somewhere! :dance: You can tell the difference between the level of skill required to model a bouncing ball and robot comprised of a few more primitives.
Now, can you tell the difference between a robot comprised of a handful of boxes and cylinders...that can be modeled in Vue 5 (which has no modeling tools, btw), and complex characters and sets which require countless hours more to create and texture...and animate?

That's right....I thought you could. :D

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 07:37 AM
This is the first time I can ever recall saying anything remotely negative about a contest or entries therein (I felt it was egregious to the other artists enough to speak up instead of playing nice and dignified like). There IS a time, true enough, to show courtesy, sportsmanship and manners...but there are also some rare occasions when it's necessary to ditch the formalities and fake gestures of sportsmanship, and call a spade a spade.
You're trying to frame it as if people are just taking swipes at everyone's work, like it's Open Season or something. That's just not the case at all.
We're talking about ONE simple robot. I am not criticizing it on it's own merits, but in relation to the other entries, because the gap was so collosal. And this comes after Larry Shultz and other forum members pleaded with Newtek to stop putting amateur work on display over professional work. Damned if they didn't do it again...maybe just for spite. Nothing personal against DAVE school students or Dominic's robot. He didn't choose his own work over the others...It was Newtek doing it
You think it's proper to bite your tongue. I think not in this one unique case.

The fact of the matter is, that this was a contest that was based on scores for each film. You and others keep trying to make it sound like Newtek's favorite was the Robot. No. The judges scores were simply added up based on three criteria. The one with the most points won. That is the most fair and square way to do it I can think of. There was no picking out the robot from the rest.

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 07:43 AM
If that is the case than why are you still trying to convince people? You are not going to change my view, or many of the other people here who are telling you that NewTek had hurt their reputation with this contest. It doesn't really matter what NewTek said on page one. There actions do not follow their talk, nor did their actions comply with the rules of the contest. NewTek screwed up and NewTek needs to own up to that.

I am not trying to change your view. I am saying things I think need to be said and pointed out. People can make up their own minds. You have your opinion, I have mine. That is the way it works here.

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 07:49 AM
I'm outta here.

Thanks for contributing.

Comments appreciated :)

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 07:53 AM
The fact of the matter is, that this was a contest that was based on scores for each film. You and others keep trying to make it sound like Newtek's favorite was the Robot. No. The judges scores were simply added up based on three criteria. The one with the most points won. That is the most fair and square way to do it I can think of. There was no picking out the robot from the rest.If you will, go check out Vue's recent (Siggraph) contest. Look at the finalists. They probably had similar criteria. They also had a panel of judges from a distinguished list of studio representatives. You could choose anyone of the finalists as first place...there were so many good entries...not unlike Newtek's. But the one thing you'll notice is consistency. All the finalists demonstrate advanced skill level in Vue, as well as composition.
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/showcase/competition/2008/

Now contrast that to Newtek's selection of an entry who's main character and the focus of the animation DOES NOT demonstrate an advanced skill level in Lighwave. And they chose it over other entries that did a remarkable job of demonstrating advanced skill (throughout the entire animation).

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 08:08 AM
If you will, go check out Vue's recent (Siggraph) contest. Look at the finalists. They probably had similar criteria. They also had a panel of judges from a distinguished list of studio representatives. You could choose anyone of the finalists as first place...there were so many good entries...not unlike Newtek's. But the one thing you'll notice is consistency. All the finalists demonstrate advanced skill level in Vue, as well as composition.
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/showcase/competition/2008/

Now contrast that to Newtek's selection of an entry who's main character and the focus of the animation DOES NOT demonstrate an advanced skill level in Lighwave. And they chose it over other entries that did a remarkable job of demonstrating advanced skill (throughout the entire animation).

Completely irrelevant to site another contest or your further speculations on their judging practices which again you don't actually have any facts on.

The entries in this contest where the best that this community could produce in the time given. That has nothing to do with Newtek choosing anything.

They put on a contest, people entered, those that scored the highest won. Simple.

And if your point is more to the fact that you think LW independent artists don't produce good work in a short time frame which can be the only point left since, this is what we did. No one else to blame there. Then I would kindly suggest that you take that argument to another thread. It is completely irrelevant to this contest and the winners IMHO.

Nicolas Jordan
08-17-2008, 08:11 AM
If it were me doing the marketing at Newtek I would be making it very well known that Lightwave was used on The Dark Knight for modeling certain scenes. They should have done a promo video similair to how they did one for 300 and maybe included other high profile projects if the Dark Knight didnt have enough content. I realise that it's not always easy to get somthing like this together but if they can it's worth it. These promo vids shold be shown at Siggraph to show people some of the high profile movies Lightwave has been used on. I think Lightwave still has lots going for it but the marketing strategy seems to be inconsistant and could be much better. Newtek can't really do much against competitors like XSI but it's still in head to head competition with programs like C4D and Modo.

Lightwave 10 will need to be a very impressive fresh release consistant and flowing throughout wich version 9 series is currently not in many areas. Version 9 series has many impressive technologies but the program is very fractured with many technologies and features left incomplete especially when compared to a very well thought out program like Modo. If Lightwave 10 isn't polished nice and shiny then I'm not sure what the future may hold.

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 08:14 AM
Completely irrelevant to site another contest or your further speculations on their judging practices which again you don't actually have any facts on.

The entries in this contest where the best that this community could produce in the time given. That has nothing to do with Newtek choosing anything.

They put on a contest, people entered, those that scored the highest won. Simple.How is it not relevant? The scoring is just as subjective as any other contest. If an entrant's work is much more professional than another's, that takes a back seat to criteria as subjective as "what's interesting?" Please, you're making no sense here, whatsoever.

Quote:
Winners will be announced at SIGGRAPH 2008 for the most visually stunning, original work that illustrates the power of LightWave right out of the box. We know that creating eye-candy is a high-calorie endeavor, so here’s how we’re going to sweeten the deal:

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 08:18 AM
You're telling me that Robochan was the most visually stunning?...not on this planet. If Robochan is considered "eye-candy"...then Rosie Odonell is a sex goddess!

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 08:31 AM
How is it not relevant? The scoring is just as subjective as any other contest. If an entrant's work is much more professional than another's, that takes a back seat to criteria as subjective as "what's interesting?" Please, you're making no sense here, whatsoever.

Quote:
Winners will be announced at SIGGRAPH 2008 for the most visually stunning, original work that illustrates the power of LightWave right out of the box. We know that creating eye-candy is a high-calorie endeavor, so here’s how we’re going to sweeten the deal:

It is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with this contest. We are talking about the entries to this contest.

And that quote has nothing directly to do with how the judges picked the entries. That is just a general mission statement. If the entires in this contest did not live up to that in your opinion, that is an entirely different subject.

How the judges scored is listed on the NT site here and on the first page.

If you are making a point otherwise than the OP which was that the contest was unfair again that is another subject and one of my main beefs. That is just laking in good taste to knock the entries of this contest. I said that before with my reasons.

And for the record before yo think I am trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. That is not why I am here. I am here because these things need to be pointed out in levity to things I think are unfair to say here and in this situation considering the artists who submitted.

I could give a rats *** about your opinions. I am glad you have them. I actually agree with many of them in certain ways. I am fine with it. Really. I only think it is fair to the artists to at least chime in and say the things I think need to be said in refute to certain assertions and claims here in this thread on this forum at this time in this circumstance. Especially when I think those claims are refutable and also are therefore unfair to say here now.

We-Co
08-17-2008, 11:12 AM
You're telling me that Robochan was the most visually stunning?...not on this planet. If Robochan is considered "eye-candy"...then Rosie Odonell is a sex goddess!

Thats hurtful.

The_Peabody01
08-17-2008, 11:49 AM
Thats hurtful.

Yup you're right, that is hurtful.

AbnRanger... you're sore!

kopperdrake
08-17-2008, 11:53 AM
This conversation is sick. I know Dominic personally - and I imagine he's gutted at the personal diatribe being bandied around on this thread by certain members. If you have an issue with the contest, may I suggest you email or phone NewTek - to slate the winner of the contest is totally unprofessional and in no way deserved.

This is the problem with the internet - people can so easily detach themselves from any need to be polite or act with any decorum. Pathetic. You (anyone who's stooped to personal attacks or who insists on pushing their point once initially made) may have just lost all of us the possibility of entering another NewTek competition if this is the kind of girlie face-slapping that ensues. Thank you.

The_Peabody01
08-17-2008, 12:04 PM
:agree:

We-Co
08-17-2008, 12:10 PM
Excatly, just like I said before I think you got your point across, now you're just being mean.

The Dommo
08-17-2008, 12:33 PM
Hey people.

I've been following this thread since it began, and the "THAT stigma" thread also. I thought it time you heard some things from my point of view regarding my entry to this contest, especially as quite so many of you seem so peeved over it.

After you've all had such strong opinions, I hope you'll take the time to read this.

Firstly, I do feel I need to express how disappointed I have been - but actually with the community here. Sorry, but considering the reputation LW has for having the best community out there, my God, you people can be so harsh and derogative. To the people who expressed encouragement and even praise in my direction, I am thankful. That said, at least over the last day or two, the anger seems to be more directed at the judges' decision rather than how bad some of you think my work was.

I am a guy who likes to get his facts together before making decisions or responding to things. So, I did check out the links from signatures to the homepages of a few of the people most critical of the standards of Robotochan. I was surprised to see though that these people giving the harshest criticism of my efforts probably need to focus on what's going on at home before they talk outside.


Now, let's get one thing clear. I was as surprised as all of you folks to find out I had placed first in this. It's not something I had imagined would happen in a million years....

As you've gathered, I've not been using LW particularly long, although I have been in and out of 3D for many years (in Softimage 3D first (without any manuals, online tutorials or anything), then 3DS MAX up to v.5, again both pretty much self-taught), so I do know a fair bit of theory of it all as well. I did then have a lengthy time out from hands-on 3D work from 2003 until recently. Now I'm on LW, getting my head around it all, and trying to figure it all out and move forward for the first time in ages.

So, why did I enter?

As I said, I've been out of 3D for some time. Starting a company with a mate, our bills are mainly paid with video and DVD work. We like to do things very properly but in our city, people don't like spending money and think that hard work is cheap - compared to London and L.A. Where people expect to pay ridiculous hourly rates and are happy with that. So, most time and energy went into just surviving.

Some of you have described my level of this entry as hobbyist. I'd like to clarify that I don't see myself in that light. I've put far too much time, energy and money into loving 3D for it not to be a part of my life. Even when I've not been hands on, I've kept abreast of technology developments and had 3D on the back of my mind. For those of you who are employed in 3D work exclusively, it's no wonder that you are very familiar with your tools and can churn out high-quality work very quickly. Lucky gits you are.

However, with business here the way it is, it simply means that the hours I can use for 3D are of the 'out-of-hours' flavour.

When I have been using LW more sporadically rather than more solidly (in this spare time) since March this year, I had mainly spent the time learning ways of modelling in LW, so therefore, pretty much in Modeler exclusively, aside from rendering. Examples of my first LW real sub-D model is here (http://eesb.blogspot.com/2008/01/lots-of-learning.html) and another Futurama-based one is here (http://eesb.blogspot.com/2008/04/going-on-bender-r.html). I enjoyed working on them both.

Then, suddenly from nowhere, this LW contest appeared. I ran it through my mind, wondering if I could or should enter.... After some thought something inside me told me Yes. Why? Because this would allow me to make a complete little project, rather than just a modelling exercise. It would be a great learning opportunity for me. I also wanted to rise to the challenge, to see what I could do in the short space of time. I know I'm the fastest modeller - how could I be? But knowing that 15% of the overall score would be assets... perhaps I may be in with a chance.

That said, in all honesty, of course I did not expect to win. At most, I hoped I might get a response from NT saying "thank you for your entry - you didn't win but we can see you've got some potential". You know, a pat on the back and a biscuit. I imagined that whoever won would have their name announced at Siggraph, and the winning entries would be shown just the once, for what would be the contest results Event.

So I set about wondering what I could possibly do, with the little knowledge of LW that I have. I've not really had a chance to play with LW bones, or any weighted movement of soft human / animal tissue over joints. So, that narrowed my choice of animation down to something mechanical.

This pretty much led me to thinking "robot". Yes, as Evolross raised, this is a no-no these days. Fair point. I'm normally on the ball with that sort of thing, but in this case it didn't cross my mind. Don't know why.

One of the hardest parts was trying to think up a story (as I said in my Q&A, story is key) which fulfilled the brief of "Model | Animate | Render", which is a tough brief indeed. As far as I saw from WIPs and the top 4 places, only one other entry seemed to directly address this brief. However, the method they employed was not very integrated into the final presentation. The way my story would unfold would answer this brief in a manner that was integral to the story.

Regardless of what I was to create, I wanted to make something that was humorous, and was entertaining because of this. That's just the way I am and what I like to do with my own projects - get a laugh from people.

I have to say that many of you have been somewhat superficial in seeing 'just' a robot. I wanted something stylised. I researched around the net (google images is useful) and really liked the style of those 1950s toy robots. Admitted, because I wanted the robot to have some lights on its body, I added some other elements which were a bit more 80s. Relatively speaking, yes I suppose it is made up of what are primitives, but this is also what the reference images I was working from were made from in real life.

However, there was a hell of a lot more that went into him than just primitives. There were many things I had to figure out how to do in LW. There were times I'd modelled a part and then realised that I would not be able to fully animate that section the way it was, so had to break that model part into pieces and fix/rebuild what I had taken apart.

True, the robot himself did not have much in the way of UVs, apart from in the mouth area where I had to apply them to get the lighting to work correctly there. Those mouth lights were driven by nodes which I had to figure out, to make both the light power and its colour be driven by a single input. The same material also drove the SIGGRAPH background lights. The material was designed so that when the lights were hot, they would cause beautiful motion and depth-of-field blurs. So for that it also worked a treat.

Evolross, yes it is a blocky model, but that's the way those toys were. As for the rigging - well as I said, I've not had a chance to play with bones in LW and figure all that stuff out, so this project did not have any rigging as such, just a bit of parenting and some old skool FK animation all the way.

Stooch, yes the animation was basically rotations, but with more care than simple keyframes - there was attention to the smoothness of the f-curves and to secondary motion also.

Evolross, the environment needed more? Totally agree - but there was a deadline looming so I had to move on. As I intend to finish the piece as I saw it in my head in the next few weeks, this is one of the things I'll be addressing.

Julez4001 - Well, at least even if Robotochan fits the kiddie art genre, you think it did that well. I'll consider that a small positive note. In fairness, I wasn't aiming the piece at any particular audience age group, just trying to meet the brief that was given - Model | Animate | Render. If you can model that exact same material and apply all the materials that I did in 2 hours, I take my hat off to you. I'm still figuring this stuff out in LW. I spent a good few days of spare time on the 'bot himself and everything to do with him.

Abnranger - minimal effort? You may think that, but the time I spent learning LW for this, as in figuring out how to achieve what I wanted all throughout the contest time, and the hours I put into the whole piece (including a fair amount of work that had to be cut out due to deadline), I used all my spare time for around 5 weeks, and pretty much ignored my girlfriend in the process. I worked on it till 2-3am most nights, then going to work as usual, and then rinse 'n' repeat 7 days a week. As you can imagine, there was a lot of tiredness, so sure, I wasn't even going at my own full speed, let alone what speed you LW gurus work at. By the way, the two scenes that got dropped did feature UV work and some all right materials too. However, I found a lot of settings NOT to use in GI as it was taking like 23 hours to render an HD frame. Another reason those were dropped from the final entry.

IMI - yes, I did try to answer the brief. I have to figure out what 'the client' wants, otherwise I don't earn any kind of living!!

As far as I can tell, the Robotochan did not break any of the rules of the contest. I worked hard to work within the boundaries given. When the deadline was extended, I did not add extra scenes. And the two key scenes missing from my piece were the ones which answered the "Model" and "Animate" sections. The dance section was just the "Render" part.

Anyway, I am going to continue this Robotochan project, regardless of what you people think of it. I need to complete the whole story, so I know the job is done and I can close this off in my mind. If nothing else, at least the robot has some character.


I too can crit the other entries that I saw, just as I can easily crit a lot of the work of ILM. It is very easy to criticise, but a lot harder to do it yourself. Nothing is perfect. Unless you are Pixar anyway. I really loved the visual style of Black Snow. Weekend Factory was also pretty entertaining, whether judged on 15 second version or not. I really like the humour in the rabbit and carrots one, particularly enjoyed the detail of the first carrot's scream becoming 'un-muffled' as the rabbit's finger is lifted off the carrot's mouth! The 2nd place work was excellent - though I hadn't realised it was from Final Fantasy....

At least Eugeny managed to show some gratitude in that he had several pieces of work shown at Siggraph. Pat on the back and a biscuit for you, Sir. Most people would kill for this, I am sure.

Frantbk - "NewTek has pissed off most in this community so they will not give any work to show case Lightwave if asked, so NewTek made up the contest to get some new content. That's all this is about, this never had anything to do with a real contest with real standards." - Don't know, I've not been around here long enough at all to know about past contests.

Shrox - "I am probably one of LW's first major users in game development. But NT never seemed to care. And fine work there Dominic." - sorry dude, but I agree that a company should show the finest work that can be done. No need to take this out on me.

Julez4001 - "Was Iron Man plastered on Newtek's front page during Sig, no but ROBOTCHAN was" - again, I agree the most top-notch stuff should be shown. I only imagined that whoever won the contest would get an announcement and like one single showing for that part of the event.


Moving forward to the future... Ok, how about this?
We have more small contests, not necessarily with prizes to fight over, and not to be shown at Siggraph (unless the result is particularly awesome).

To those who criticised the robot's animation, how about a LW contest where NT (or somebody) supply a character, with a few objects in scene, properly rigged. A clip of audio is provided to animate to. The rules are simple. No extra models, no materials, just pure animation of the rig provided, rendered only through OpenGL. I believe I would fare ok in this kind of contest. It would also be comparable to racing cups in Europe where every driver has exactly the same car, and the race outcome is determined only by driver ability - bar mechanical failures. I was thinking along the lines of what was the 10 second club - somebody elsewhere on this forum has discussed a new 11 second club.

I for one also want to see Lightwave become better recognised. I'm here for the long haul, no matter what you people think of my work. I'm probably one of the most driven and hard-working people you could meet, and in the past, I've been described as a machine. Both my colleague and I have had to work 48 and even 72 hour shifts, with the only breaks being a very quick time-out for food and a drink.

So, as for contests or getting the best stuff shown at Siggraph.... How about people stop talking the talk, and start walking the walk? How about we talk to Newtek, I mean really talk to them. Ask them for a brief. If they don't provide one, then why don't we club together, in this community thing we have here? Make a story of some kind, refine it, everynody figure out what they want to do to chip in. We model it, UV it, texture it, light it, rig it, animate it, and render it - and then having discussed the whole thing with Newtek, and hopefully have their backing after the free hard graft, hand it over on a plate and say "now guys, try showing this" ?

Doesn't that sound like some kind of a plan? I mean, if it can be done in Blender, why can't we do it? You've got the tools. Between us all we have the knowledge. All it needs is a lot of love.


To finish what will probably be only post on this thread-
I will never claim I am the best in the World in anything, because there will always be somebody better or faster or more able than you.

However, after my initial gutted feelings and actual attacks from certain people, I have to say THANK YOU. I'm 28 now, and I have had many naysayers over the last 15 years of my life, telling me I can't do this, or won't achieve that. I've proved them all wrong. So, THANK YOU to all you negative people. I have recomposed myself, and now I'm going to move forward. You naysayers give me drive, drive to prove you all wrong. I vow to you, here and now, that I'll keep improving and I won't stop still. Over time you might see more of my work on these forums, and I hope that each time you will look and admit that I have gotten better.

Peace out.
Dom

IMI
08-17-2008, 01:19 PM
Very well said, Dommo, all of it. :thumbsup:

Kuzey
08-17-2008, 01:33 PM
Nice response Dom...that robot made me laugh indeed. :thumbsup:

Maybe, next time there should be categories to the contest like toons, realism, architectural, sci fi etc. etc. Also, throw in a ten license copy of LW...so studios would feel it worthwhile to enter the contest too.

Newtek could pick the winners of each category and allow people at Siggraph to pick the over all winner and be in a draw to win a copy of LW themselves.

Kuzey

John Jordan
08-17-2008, 01:42 PM
Congratulations on your win, Dommo!:agree:

IMI
08-17-2008, 02:05 PM
I like the suggestion he made of some sort of community-based project. For those of us who are more or less only hobbyists and wannabees with enough time on our hands, it could be an awesome experience, and great practice as well.

Speaking of contests, I've long wished NT would appoint some member who was interested to run some sort of contest or challenge forum here.
I know the other LW forums do that sort of thing, as does CG Talk, but the more the merrier, eh?
Plus, since this is NewTek's official LW forum, it would seem a no-brainer that they'd have such a thing here.

shrox
08-17-2008, 02:22 PM
Hey people.

Shrox - "I am probably one of LW's first major users in game development. But NT never seemed to care. And fine work there Dominic." - sorry dude, but I agree that a company should show the finest work that can be done. No need to take this out on me.

I sent you a PM, don't worry it's nice.

Eugeny
08-17-2008, 02:31 PM
Dominic, i really sorry that this thread rolled to bad comparisons. Then i started this thread i wonted to point on NewTek, not on u personally. The problem that u fault between two fires in bad time. As u stated u was not here long enough to know another contest and probably u not familiar with situation with NewTek marketing politics and attitude.
As i stated before i think that your entry was absolutely legal (and also after seen the screen grabs of the "Black Snow" i don't have any questions to that entry anymore).
Yes i think that your entry don't deserve first place, but i don't think that my entry was deserve any place as well (then i saw the second place entry my jaw was on floor, and that transformer robot with tank is really cool also). But i did found your work cute and funny. U did absolutely right move then u you have decided to participate in competition, there is nothing like "drive" of competition, especially then u make a wip thread and post your progress to get some feedback.
As for me I'm freelance and my wife running her small business, so i know that is this "to survive" (if u think your work paid mach less then in London or in States, believe me here in Israel u lucky then actually your work was paid :().
I had the idea of making that scene (my main entry) quite a long time, but newer had a time to do it. So the competition was great opportunity to make it. I was running commercial project at the same time , so to finish it in time I'm also worked really hard (14-16 hours a day) with no attention to my kid and wife. The two last days before submission was sleepless (that's why i was so disappointed by extracting dead line, i tough it's was ended but it's was not ). And i think other participants of competition was working hard also.
So, as i said before, enjoy your prizes and make some good use of them (at last u need that learning materials more then me :hey:).
Peace and good luck :thumbsup:

archijam
08-17-2008, 02:55 PM
Congrats! Despite how enjoyable the forums can be, a thick skin is sometimes in order .. when it rains here, it pours.

Though there has been enough quoting of the competition rules recently, you did the "out of the box" truly justice.

Congrats to the rest as well, an impressive turnout for a VERY tight schedule. Alot of hours in great work here, let's not devalue it any further with speculation.

Julez4001
08-17-2008, 03:13 PM
Hey people.

However, after my initial gutted feelings and actual attacks from certain people, I have to say THANK YOU. I'm 28 now, and I have had many naysayers over the last 15 years of my life, telling me I can't do this, or won't achieve that. I've proved them all wrong. So, THANK YOU to all you negative people. I have recomposed myself, and now I'm going to move forward. You naysayers give me drive, drive to prove you all wrong. I vow to you, here and now, that I'll keep improving and I won't stop still. Over time you might see more of my work on these forums, and I hope that each time you will look and admit that I have gotten better.

Peace out.
Dom

As we say in Atlanta, "let your haters be your motivators."

Still as i said in our pm, thisis more pointed to newtek than you but it is a hell of a collateral damage going on....


CONGRATS again....

Tippsy
08-17-2008, 05:16 PM
I dont think even I could be that nice to everything that has been said here! Somebodys gotta be the tough guy who can take it and dish it out to! Lol

great work!

Stunt Pixels
08-17-2008, 06:09 PM
Well said Dom. Great display of your character. You should be proud.

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 09:07 PM
Yup you're right, that is hurtful.

AbnRanger... you're sore!Who are you to talk...you took a shot at my reel, and you still haven't shown us your own? What's up with the hypocricy, Bub?

AbnRanger
08-17-2008, 09:11 PM
Excatly, just like I said before I think you got your point across, now you're just being mean.I said that I was bowing out, much earlier...yet you guys kept taking shots at me. If somebody says they give in, why do you keep swinging?

And, for what it's worth, I said early on that I thought the rest of the winning entry was pretty cool, but the robot MODEL brought it down. My point was that the other entries were VERY professional throughout. I'll leave it at that

Surrealist.
08-17-2008, 10:30 PM
I said that I was bowing out, much earlier...yet you guys kept taking shots at me. If somebody says they give in, why do you keep swinging?

Nobody. Not one person took a single shot at you directly after you bowed out. There were two comments made about what was shared by more than one person here.

Your very next post was to quote me. I had nothing to say to you directly. If I had something to say to you directly I would have. I was merely commenting on the general scene and what happened in sort of a summary statement. It was my opinion about the whole scene and it never occurred to me that you were that big of a part of it but mainly a contributor. If you took that as a personal jab, my apology. Not intended.


And, for what it's worth, I said early on that I thought the rest of the winning entry was pretty cool, but the robot MODEL brought it down. My point was that the other entries were VERY professional throughout. I'll leave it at that

And finally we should leave it exactly at that.

frantbk
08-18-2008, 08:09 AM
Hey people.
As far as I can tell, the Robotochan did not break any of the rules of the contest. I worked hard to work within the boundaries given. When the deadline was extended, I did not add extra scenes. And the two key scenes missing from my piece were the ones which answered the "Model" and "Animate" sections. The dance section was just the "Render" part. [/B]

I don't think anyone is saying that Robotochan broke the rules. Weekend Factory does break the rules. Someone time it at 2.5 minutes. the 1st, 2nd and 4th place winners reels all conform to the 15 second time rule. Weekend factory does not conform to that, and as far as everyone knows, no waiver was implied by NewTek, nor can anyone find any fine print that states of a waiver system for this contest. That is where NewTek can be held accountable for contest fraud. That and the fact that the prize's have a dollar amount of greater than $10.00.

The basic complaint here is NewTek screwed up and ran a poor contest. If NewTek is allowing winners to have almost 3 minute entries than reasonable conduct states "all contestants should be allowed the same amount of time for fairness." the fact that three out of the four won on 15 sec reels is moot. NewTek did not have a stated waiver system in place at the being of the contest. NewTek is a U.S. based company and has to comply with US law governing contest.

Surrealist.
08-18-2008, 09:31 AM
I was just looking at the reel again.

What a great job! Everybody. Really. It runs the gamut from Dommo's very cool and very well done and fun-looking robot animation - perfectly fit for what it is! And a great tribute to him as a artist to actually think through what he could do with the skills he had to make something that would be appropriate to what he was trying to accomplish rather than something that seemed to be lacking because it was beyond his means. That in itself was brilliant and deserving of a first prize to this contest alone.

Then on to corporate logo stuff, to other commercial type work, that cool robot fighter sequence, Black Snow the mountain helli's, the pinball, Frozen, all of it. I mean I am genuinely proud of what was done.

It really does show how diverse this group is.

I predict that next near the competition will be even stiffer.

So y'all sharpen your pencils and get down to work. Be ready! :thumbsup:

The_Peabody01
08-18-2008, 10:19 AM
Who are you to talk...you took a shot at my reel, and you still haven't shown us your own? What's up with the hypocricy, Bub?

We can throw insults back and forth all day and night, but it ain't gonna get anyone anywhere.

AbnRanger - my last comment to you, before it's left at that. You just showed you can dish it out, but you can't take it back. I think when you are going to have a go about someones work, when they have worked hard, you are only opening yourself up for critism too. That's whats happened.

Take a bow, shows over.

hrgiger
08-18-2008, 10:55 AM
I just wanted to make a quick response to Dommos monster post. Especially the portion which you voice your disappointment over the overall notion of the reputation of the Lightwave community and your present perception of it due to some of the responses here to your work and this contest. I don't like this idea that the Lightwave community is so great because we're filled with a bunch of kiss-asses. I have posted a lot of work here on the boards and everytime, I expect a few people to tell me how much it blows and how I need to work on this or that. Some people post here and they're solely fishing for compliments and praise and when they don't get it, they accuse people of being negative and derogatory. Obviously some people deliver criticism much better but the point is still the same. If you can't handle people discussing your work, negatively or positively, you shouldn't make your work visible at all. I think for the most part, you've received as much praise for your entry as you have negative, so I think you should consider it a win in your book. But please don't cast the Lightwave community into a negative light just because some people see your work as amateurish or kid oriented. Personally, I don't like Anime so I dont' get the second entry at all. Not because it's not good (and I still have my doubts about the eligibility of that one), but just because it's not my bag so I wouldn't have a good basis to criticize it on.
Personally, I think your robot animation was just fine. However, I didn't feel like it was a winning entry and I don't think Newtek should be touting it as such at the most visible software market in the country. From things you said in your post, you seem to be overly confident in your modeling skills. Unfortunately, I dont' think you showcased them very well with this entry. You may have worked very hard on this entry and I can appreciate that. But none of us know how much you worked on it personally so I don't see how using that as a basis for argument is relative. The people who have commented on your work directly are going solely off the finished animation, not how long you may have spent working on it or how much you ignored your mate to get it done.
Congratulations on your win Dominic, it's a really great prize set. My only suggestion is that you learn to take criticism in the future. Ignore the pointless negatives and learn from those who are giving their honest opinion of your work, even if it doesn't please you outright.

The Dommo
08-18-2008, 12:11 PM
Hey,

Just a quicky -

I have noticed I made a major typo in missing out a key word in description of my skills. Up there, I typed "I know I'm the fastest modeller" but of course I did in fact mean to type "I know I'm NOT the fastest modeller".

I have no problem with criticism as such, as long as it's constructive criticism, so you can learn from it and go forward. When people appear to piss on other people, in what seems just out of spite, that is something which comes over as that criticiser (or should that be critter?!) is doing for the sheer enjoyment of it, like it makes them feel better in life if they can appear to be better than somebody else.

As I said also, I did notice in fact that the anger was being changed in the direction of the judges - and as some people said to me, I was kinda caught in the cross fire. I also thank again the people who were positive. At the end of the day, you can't please everybody.

The amount of work I put in was just information to those who felt I had put minimal effort in, or just 2 hours. Not an argument, just fact.

And it was my girlfriend I ignored, not just a mate!

Anyway, I'm cracking on now with other things - I think enough's been said on this now ...

AbnRanger
08-18-2008, 03:24 PM
We can throw insults back and forth all day and night, but it ain't gonna get anyone anywhere.

AbnRanger - my last comment to you, before it's left at that. You just showed you can dish it out, but you can't take it back. I think when you are going to have a go about someones work, when they have worked hard, you are only opening yourself up for critism too. That's whats happened.

Take a bow, shows over.Like I said before, When you show the rest of us SOME of your own work, then you have SOME platform to criticize me about my work. As long as you keep poking your head in here, I'm going to ride you on this...you opened your mouth, now everybody's watching and waiting to see where your impressive work is...now that you put yourself on a pedestal above me. Don't sing it...BRING IT!

I was making a comment about just one single robot (in relation to the competition...not on it's own merit)...not the guy's body of work. I said early on in the thread that I thought the rest of the scene was cool. Then, some wanker like you comes out of the woodwork to take a cheap shot at my portfolio, and try to instigate matters into a pissing contest.
You need to just shut your yapper until you can bring some of your own work to the table!:tsktsk:

John Jordan
08-18-2008, 03:28 PM
I can hardly wait till the next contest!!!

daforum
08-18-2008, 03:44 PM
When will the next contest be?

AbnRanger
08-18-2008, 03:48 PM
You just showed you can dish it out, but you can't take it back. I think when you are going to have a go about someones work, when they have worked hard, you are only opening yourself up for critism too. That's whats happened.

Take a bow, shows over.Did I forget to mention that you also need to heed your own advice. How cowardly it is to come out of nowhere and take potshots at someone's work without likewise having something of your own that is open for critique or criticism...Kind of like saying, "My Daddy can whoop you" while clinging to his heel. What a wus!

AbnRanger
08-18-2008, 03:51 PM
I'm game for a contest against "Big Shot Peabody". Come with your best shot, tough guy. Let's see what you got!

andrew_y
08-18-2008, 04:01 PM
This has gone on long enough.