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View Full Version : Do you think that Larry "SplineGod" Shultz should demo IKB at SIGGRAPH



danielkaiser
07-16-2008, 09:03 PM
Well?

JamesCurtis
07-16-2008, 09:56 PM
Definately!!! It has quite a bit of potential!!

Dexter2999
07-17-2008, 01:00 AM
I will be the first one to say I don't know squat about IKB. I purchased the older video but have just started it.

Even if it has some flaws, I think it is a better use of time at the booth than the guy from the video (I think it was NAB) who showed a video that was supposed to be his reel, but turned out to be a reel for the ad company he worked for in NY. I think the host in the video was under the impression that the guy had done all the work himself. Then the guy gets up there and turns out it was the work of like four guys and alot of it was After Effects work.

At least Larry's presentation is 100% LW related and it will show off something that most people don't know as much about as he does. I don't think I will ever be as good at IKB as Larry but his demonstrations do illustrate possiblities.

I wouldn't mind seeing a few slots for plug in developers. Maestro and Timothee Albee's Facial Animation plugs would be neat demo's as well.

AbnRanger
07-17-2008, 01:52 AM
I will be the first one to say I don't know squat about IKB. I purchased the older video but have just started it.

Even if it has some flaws, I think it is a better use of time at the booth than the guy from the video (I think it was NAB) who showed a video that was supposed to be his reel, but turned out to be a reel for the ad company he worked for in NY. I think the host in the video was under the impression that the guy had done all the work himself. Then the guy gets up there and turns out it was the work of like four guys and alot of it was After Effects work.

At least Larry's presentation is 100% LW related and it will show off something that most people don't know as much about as he does. I don't think I will ever be as good at IKB as Larry but his demonstrations do illustrate possiblities.

I wouldn't mind seeing a few slots for plug in developers. Maestro and Timothee Albee's Facial Animation plugs would be neat demo's as well.What I think would be cool is to not only have Larry demo it, but to have on screen, in large text (so it catches the attention of passersby), ala David Letterman's Top Ten list...Top Ten myths about LW CA (IKB in particular)...busted! Then the focus of his presentation will be disabusing those myths, and show just how useful it really can be. That session (recorded) would be perfect to post up, front and center, on LW's main page (to download or video stream), thereafter.

colkai
07-17-2008, 02:25 AM
Totally, folks need to see what they can do with LW *NOW* so they on board for when LW10 is announced, with, presumably, it's new CA system.

It is also good for current LW users to see why Larry makes the fuss about it he does, I think this is case of a picture definitely painting a 1,00 words. :)

archijam
07-17-2008, 02:30 AM
http://www.okanagan.bc.ca/Assets/Departments+(Administration)/Library/Images/deakin/scarabssecret.jpg

rakker16mm
07-17-2008, 02:43 AM
Absolutely. I am very exhited about all the new developments NewTek is developing for LightWave however here is a tool that makes animation a lot more intuitive. It could only be to NewTek's advantage to make IKBooster a selling point for LightWave.

Kuzey
07-17-2008, 03:38 AM
I would get them to record it and supply it as part of the LW content material.

Larry gets publicity for his online classes and Newtek gets to make a feature more user understandable/friendly...that's a win win in my view :stumped:

Kuzey

Nangleator
07-17-2008, 07:23 AM
Best possible question to be asked in the competitive booths: "Hey, I thought you said LW couldn't do CA?! Look at what that guy is doing!"

colkai
07-17-2008, 07:44 AM
archijam
Ya lost me there, parting in hair now where that one flew past. :p

AbnRanger
07-17-2008, 08:13 AM
For what it's worth, here's the link to Dave's Top Ten List page:
http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/index/php/20080627.phtml

Chris S. (Fez)
07-17-2008, 09:34 AM
Respectfully, a respectable reel is critical for trade show audiences. Can anyone post a link to a production featuring truly polished IKbooster animation? Anyone? Bueller?

danielkaiser
07-17-2008, 09:32 PM
Bump!!!!!

colkai
07-18-2008, 02:17 AM
Double bump with Bump on, with a side order of Bump. :)

archijam
07-18-2008, 02:20 AM
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/1013/50245963.JPG

;)

evenflcw
07-18-2008, 06:23 AM
What I think would be cool is to not only have Larry demo it, but to have on screen, in large text (so it catches the attention of passersby), ala David Letterman's Top Ten list...Top Ten myths about LW CA (IKB in particular)...busted! Then the focus of his presentation will be disabusing those myths, and show just how useful it really can be. That session (recorded) would be perfect to post up, front and center, on LW's main page (to download or video stream), thereafter.

I doubt Larry will be busting any myths, as much as he will be creating a new one. There is a myth that you can't do CA in LW (untrue but still). Larry would simply create a new myth, that you CAN do CA in LW! Usually there is both truth and untruth to every myth.

And despite how good IKB is for animating, it's likely serious TD/CA will find the rest of LWs motion and displacement architecture lacking for "highend" work.

colkai
07-18-2008, 07:43 AM
That's not in contention, most of us, if not all, want a total revamp to make LW CA "something like".

What I find baffling is this stance against IKB, I mean, do you see anyone condemning Extend and move in modeller because they prefer MultiShift? It is, when all is said and done, only a tool, just so happens this tool has never been fully explored properly, why wanting to do so ignites such anti-IKB feeling is a tad perplexing.

It's not being hailed as the second coming after all, simply a tool that is overlooked when animating in LW.

Nangleator
07-18-2008, 07:57 AM
Stoopid Extend tool. Makes me think it's Extender Plus when I'm trying to assign hotkeys. Anybody who uses it is stoopid. Buy a real 3D app for just several thousand dollars more, plus several thousand more each year.

;)

Chris S. (Fez)
07-18-2008, 08:53 AM
What I find baffling is this stance against IKB.

IKboost seems a fine toolset and while I have no objections to further development I would prefer Newtek first focus on integrating traditional tried-and-true rigging methods standard to Max/Maya/XSI.

Ultimately we want rigging with all of IKBoosts strengths and none of its weaknesses.

littlewaves
07-18-2008, 09:39 AM
Stoopid Extend tool. Makes me think it's Extender Plus when I'm trying to assign hotkeys. Anybody who uses it is stoopid. Buy a real 3D app for just several thousand dollars more, plus several thousand more each year.

;)


you haven't a clue what you're on about. Gollum was made entirely with the extend tool including the voice

How many Gollums have you made anyway? I make 5 a day in different colours

evenflcw
07-18-2008, 09:58 AM
What I find baffling is this stance against IKB, I mean, do you see anyone condemning Extend and move in modeller because they prefer MultiShift? It is, when all is said and done, only a tool, just so happens this tool has never been fully explored properly, why wanting to do so ignites such anti-IKB feeling is a tad perplexing.

I condemn tools. Last I remember cursing and putting a hex on was EdgeBevel. Sure it can be usefull, and I'm grateful to the guy who wrote it when it is. But it is SO annoying when tools don't work that I can't praise him for the same. If a tool bugs out 50% of the time, on average I save no time using them. I need to trust the tools I use. To not risk loosing time I condemn the tool and try my hardest to avoid them. Write my own if I must.

I think these last days discussion on IKB and animation in LW is great!


IKboost seems a fine toolset and while I have no objections to further development I would prefer Newtek first focus on integrating traditional tried-and-true rigging methods standard to Max/Maya/XSI.

Ultimately we want rigging with all of IKBoosts strengths and none of its weaknesses.

I don't care about traditional rigging for myself, I am not fond of up vectors as they are usually implemented - The knee controller should be at and move with the knee, not be a foot away from it. I just want a more flexible system, and give NT free hands to innovate. I agree with Larry that traditional rigging require too much work. And I agree with your last sentence.

Stooch
07-18-2008, 10:38 AM
only if there is a future for IKBs development. the guy who created it is no longer with NT so his ideas are as well. they are making the joints it seems so it kinda puts IKBs existence into question. (unless NT intends the new joints to work with IKB)

Cageman
07-18-2008, 10:57 AM
only if there is a future for IKBs development. the guy who created it is no longer with NT so his ideas are as well. they are making the joints it seems so it kinda puts IKBs existence into question. (unless NT intends the new joints to work with IKB)

Of what I've heard, IKB works with the new joints. Wether or not this is an implementation by NT or not is questionable. IKB works with all kinds of hierarchies, not just bones (you can have a bunch of nulls in a parent hierarchy and use IKB). Which makes me believe that IKB just sees an hierarchy of something and just works...

HarverdGrad
07-19-2008, 04:24 AM
I purchased his video training years ago, with a promise of a free upgrade to his LW8 video training. He never delivered on that promise, so my answer is a big "no".
..I would never use him at an CGEvent.

ericsmith
07-19-2008, 10:48 AM
What I find baffling is this stance against IKB, I mean, do you see anyone condemning Extend and move in modeller because they prefer MultiShift? It is, when all is said and done, only a tool, just so happens this tool has never been fully explored properly, why wanting to do so ignites such anti-IKB feeling is a tad perplexing.

I think this is a bit of a misperception. I, and I think others like Paul (pooby), are rather ambivilant about IKB. What really riles me is when IKB evangelists only tell part of the story, and then dodge the issues and throw up smokescreens when they're called to the carpet.

Honestly, I hate the idea that alot of inexperienced animators will see some of the demos, and think they've found the magic bullet to character animation, only to spend countless hours never being able to accomplish what they want, and then think that it's just because they still don't get it and need to buy another training dvd.

Also, the analogy of extender vs. multishift isn't quite appropriate. Comparing extender and multishift, they are two different ways to extend a new band of geometry off of an edge. Using either tool gives the exact same end result. But my contention is that using IKB gives a different, and lower quality, result than using fulltime IK. If the extend tool created polys that wouldn't render properly, than you'd have people warning others not to use it. And if someone was trying to convince everyone that the extend tool was better than multishift, and then waffled when other users brought up the rendering issue, stating that you can't judge a tool based on final renders alone, and was on a campaign to try and convince Newtek not to drop the extend tool because it was really powerful, just not properly documented, that would get a little tiring after awhile.

Now my version of the extender vs. multishift analogy may be a bit more black and white than the issues of IKB vs. fulltime IK, but I will stand on my belief that while IKB looks good when posing on a single frame, the process of animating over a length of time is where it really falls down.

Eric

pauland
07-20-2008, 05:38 AM
The real question is not whether IKB is good or bad, but whether Larrys presentation will help sell seats of LW..

cresshead
07-20-2008, 09:17 AM
from marketing point of view for lightwave 9.x it can have 4 results

1.for those who no little of lightwave it could come off as ooh that's intersting way to rig and pose a character in a 3d app..looks simple and quite clean u.i. wise.

2.for those who are already ware of lightwave..ohh look same tools being trotted out as when they announced lightwave 8.0 years ago...nothing new..move along move along..

3.for those who know lightwave well enough to probably own in/use it...Hmmm i might got that a try...this won't sell new seats but could get people taking a second look at lightwave for character animation in some productions.

4.for those animators who've already tried ikb and have made their minds up it's not for them...it'll look abit like newtek are going down a wrong path for character animation advancments for lightwave 9.x and lw10...sort of de focussing develeopment..not good in their view.

cresshead
07-20-2008, 09:23 AM
i think all of those things are quite valid...all depends on who you are amongst those 4 options...

for me it'as a mix of 3 and 4...in the end i'd sooner see some new tools...be they a more advanced ikb or totally new tools..they have to rival what i have in 3dsmax to drag me away from max and biped for rigs...currently i don;t see anything much that does that for my personal needs...love to be proved in error in a future vid from larry though!

Sekhar
07-20-2008, 10:29 AM
from marketing point of view for lightwave 9.x it can have 4 results

1.for those who no little of lightwave it could come off as ooh that's intersting way to rig and pose a character in a 3d app..looks simple and quite clean u.i. wise.

2.for those who are already ware of lightwave..ohh look same tools being trotted out as when they announced lightwave 8.0 years ago...nothing new..move along move along..

3.for those who know lightwave well enough to probably own in/use it...Hmmm i might got that a try...this won't sell new seats but could get people taking a second look at lightwave for character animation in some productions.

4.for those animators who've already tried ikb and have made their minds up it's not for them...it'll look abit like newtek are going down a wrong path for character animation advancments for lightwave 9.x and lw10...sort of de focussing develeopment..not good in their view.

I guess most will fall into 1-3, and the skeptics who kind of tinkered with IKB and gave up might still be attracted if NT positions the presentation as a profound revelation of sorts. E.g.,

"Secrets of LightWave IKB finally revealed!"
"Animate like never before: the unknown features of LightWave IKB"

You get the idea. After all, lots of the folks on this forum did get excited when Larry "uncovered" the IKB features they didn't know existed.

roboanarchy
07-20-2008, 01:11 PM
Honestly, I hate the idea that alot of inexperienced animators will see some of the demos, and think they've found the magic bullet to character animation, only to spend countless hours never being able to accomplish what they want, and then think that it's just because they still don't get it and need to buy another training dvd.


This is called not having talent. It has jack to to with anything but personal issues.

As a person who has a large amount of talent and less technical information I can tell you that I encounter guys who want to be able to do what I can every day. They ask me every question they can think of in an attempt to be able to do what I do, and the sad fact is that I have to tell them all "If you are asking me how to do this stuff then you simply aren't a natural at it."

Creativity has little to do with what tools you're using because a true artist will make anything look good. The ideal tool is transparent to the creative process (which just so happens to aptly describe IKB), and the quality of your art is more dependent on time and internal drive than what you used to make it.

Bottom line is that the tools are there to make it easier on the creative powerhouses, not allow fish to fly. You should be careful of making statements that make it appear as though you have a faulty grasp on reality because they tend to detract from the gloss of the other arguments you may make on these forums.

ericsmith
07-20-2008, 04:28 PM
Wow. I had no idea you were so talented. You must be, because you said so. Now the argument that you can't judge a tool based on the lack of quality final results makes complete sense.

But seriously, my point is legitimate. There are many users that come to this forum, from beginners and hobbyists to working pros.

It's possible to have talent, but not experience. The inexperienced ones are still learning how to take their raw talent and leverage it with the proper tools to be able to create good, final art.

Eric

roboanarchy
07-20-2008, 04:31 PM
Wow. I had no idea you were so talented. You must be, because you said so. Now the argument that you can't judge a tool based on the lack of quality final results makes complete sense.

Your attempt to use my claims of talent to disprove the accuracy of a statement that stands on its own shows that your comprehension leaves much to be desired, casting a shadow on the rest of the things you postulate. I think my work is done here.

hrgiger
07-20-2008, 05:11 PM
I think this would be a bad idea. Just imagine all the companies showing new technologies and talking about directions the software will take in the near future and then Newtek has someone showing off a tool that has been in the software for the last 3 or 4 years with no good examples of animations being accomplished with it. Newtek should be talking about the future and how they intend to move the software forward, not showing how usable the software can be if you just learn to make do with what you already have.

ericsmith
07-20-2008, 05:51 PM
Your attempt to use my claims of talent to disprove the accuracy of a statement that stands on its own shows that your comprehension leaves much to be desired, casting a shadow on the rest of the things you postulate. I think my work is done here.

Dude, I was being facetious. I know that's a big word, but it just means I was joking around.

But seriously, you might want to be a little less cocky. You could really embarrass yourself if you're not careful.

Eric

Chris S. (Fez)
07-20-2008, 08:17 PM
Newtek should be talking about the future and how they intend to move the software forward, not showing how usable the software can be if you just learn to make do with what you already have.

Agreed.

danielkaiser
07-20-2008, 09:43 PM
I think this would be a bad idea. Just imagine all the companies showing new technologies and talking about directions the software will take in the near future and then Newtek has someone showing off a tool that has been in the software for the last 3 or 4 years with no good examples of animations being accomplished with it. Newtek should be talking about the future and how they intend to move the software forward, not showing how usable the software can be if you just learn to make do with what you already have.

I think Larys time would fill an hour or two of what twenty five? +- hours over three days, I'm sure there will be plenty of time to talk about other things.

hrgiger
07-20-2008, 09:54 PM
I guess you don't see the major perception problem that Lightwave has. I think the last thing that Lightwave needs is to have one of its software trainers to be pushing a three or four year old feature at one of the most visible technology conferences of the year. Newtek isn't known for it's overwhelming marketing force, the last thing it needs right now is to be taking visible steps backwards. But that's just MHO of course.

SplineGod
07-21-2008, 12:57 AM
The real question is not whether IKB is good or bad, but whether Larrys presentation will help sell seats of LW..

Thats what it boils down to isnt it? :)

Myself and a coworker demonstrated IKB tonite at the LA User group to a packed house. There were a lot of experienced animators including many who are familar with rigging and animating in other apps like Maya.

We answered everyones questions and demonstrated concepts that some seem to think that IKB is weak at.
Everyone was excited about what IKB can allow them to do.
Its going to be a long spell in between now and LW 10. Newtek has some technology in LW in the form of IKB that regardless of what is said here especially by the usual naysayer posse, people ARE excited about.

You would think Newtek would want to capitalize on that excitement, bottle it, figure it out and use it to sell more LW seats.

The bottom line is that I havent heard of one seat of LW being sold with all the XSI/Maya is better at CA then LW talk. Joints, SoftIK, IK/FK blending etc will probably do little to sell more seats unfortunately.

The bottom line is simple: Show off the software and let the people decide with their wallets :)

SplineGod
07-21-2008, 01:02 AM
I purchased his video training years ago, with a promise of a free upgrade to his LW8 video training. He never delivered on that promise, so my answer is a big "no".
..I would never use him at an CGEvent.

Have you attempted to contact me about this and when?

SplineGod
07-21-2008, 01:07 AM
I guess you don't see the major perception problem that Lightwave has. I think the last thing that Lightwave needs is to have one of its software trainers to be pushing a three or four year old feature at one of the most visible technology conferences of the year. Newtek isn't known for it's overwhelming marketing force, the last thing it needs right now is to be taking visible steps backwards. But that's just MHO of course.

Funny that people buy LW and discover lots of OLD features that FOR THEM are new. Plenty of people are not familar with many aspects of LW that have been around for years such as endomorphs, that bones work immediately when rested, being able to simply swap characters in and out on the same bones etc. I show this stuff to seasoned people in this business all the time and it blows them away.
I guess Newtek shouldnt even show off anything since none of the NEW features in 9.5 are anything new compared to other apps.

Surrealist.
07-21-2008, 01:49 AM
LOL!

Larry, all I can say is I applaud what you are doing. Keep it up. As if you need me to tell you. :)

What you are doing for LW, the LW community and for NewTek could not be counted in dollars. It is people like you over the years that have kept LightWave going.

NewTek for the love of god, if you are listening and if you care, the last little bits of truth Lary just said will go a long way to making this LightWave survive better - now - in an area that has been lacking. That cannot hurt.

If you don't take advantage of it, we will all loose a little bit. If you do, I think everyone will win.

That's my opinion.

hrgiger
07-21-2008, 03:53 AM
I show this stuff to seasoned people in this business all the time and it blows them away.


I'd love to hear from these 'seasoned' people instead of your constant claims. Because I know that's what the buzz at Dreamworks, ILM, and Pixar are screaming about, just how great IKB is....

littlewaves
07-21-2008, 05:24 AM
I think my work is done here.

enjoy your retirement

evenflcw
07-21-2008, 08:08 AM
Newtek should be talking about the future and how they intend to move the software forward, not showing how usable the software can be if you just learn to make do with what you already have.

Agreed.



Although, I enjoyed Larrys IKB webinar through Kurv late june and am still waiting and wishing to see the second aswell. Not because I am leaning much more towards IKB than before, but simply because I enjoyed the demonstrations. I still don't enjoy using the tool myself. As such an IKB demo at siggraph could surely sell a few seats, just as demos of other features. I just don't think there should be any emphasis placed on IKB, because I don't think it will be able to stand up to the scrutiny of skilled tds, riggers and/or animators. When IKB was introduced some Siggraphs ago, people oh'd and ah'd. When the same people tried it themselves they obviously saw and felt that it was lacking, because few chose to use it (it can't all be because of bad documentation) and it still has nothing to show for it. NT shouldn't sell at any cost, and especially not on false pretences, it's bad for the community spirit, and imho bad morale. IKB should be demoed as any other feature, because it isn't all that special in it's current form.

Titus
07-21-2008, 08:58 AM
Just imagine all the companies showing new technologies and talking about directions the software will take in the near future and then Newtek has someone showing off a tool that has been in the software for the last 3 or 4 years with no good examples of animations being accomplished with it.


It couldn't be as bad when last year I saw Proton showing how to texture a model using nodes at their SIGGRAPH booth.

SP00
07-21-2008, 08:58 AM
There a lot of people going to Siggraph. There will be people that knows a lot about Lightwave and people who knows nothing about Lightwave or even 3D in general. Promoting IKB would be a smart move, in conjunction with some talk of the future of Lightwave CA. I don't see how giving the public awareness of a tool that can counter the claims that LW lack in CA can be a bad thing. There are people going to Siggraph that would jump for joy on a simple tutorial on basic modeling.

SplineGod
07-21-2008, 09:18 AM
I'd love to hear from these 'seasoned' people instead of your constant claims. Because I know that's what the buzz at Dreamworks, ILM, and Pixar are screaming about, just how great IKB is....

Steve, my idea of the term constant claim is when someone raves about something like, oh say, XSI and when asked to show some examples of why its so great can only state that they cant because theyve only used it for a couple of weeks.

You have some pretty skewed ideas about how useful some software is based on who may or may not be using it on particular projects. Im sure your counterclaims come from years of experience in the industry and talking to other animators on a regular basis.

Its funny how, despite your deep industry insights, that people somehow manage to use LW despite whether it may or may not be used at some studio.

I dont know any animators/ 3d artists who purchase software based on what MAY or MIGHT be coming 3 years down the road. In this industry that may as well be 100 years. People purchase tools that will do what they need now.

I guess you would prefer that Newtek shut their doors and dont come out until they have something that just blows every other app away.

SplineGod
07-21-2008, 09:28 AM
Agreed.



Although, I enjoyed Larrys IKB webinar through Kurv late june and am still waiting and wishing to see the second aswell. Not because I am leaning much more towards IKB than before, but simply because I enjoyed the demonstrations. I still don't enjoy using the tool myself. As such an IKB demo at siggraph could surely sell a few seats, just as demos of other features. I just don't think there should be any emphasis placed on IKB, because I don't think it will be able to stand up to the scrutiny of skilled tds, riggers and/or animators. When IKB was introduced some Siggraphs ago, people oh'd and ah'd. When the same people tried it themselves they obviously saw and felt that it was lacking, because few chose to use it (it can't all be because of bad documentation) and it still has nothing to show for it. NT shouldn't sell at any cost, and especially not on false pretences, it's bad for the community spirit, and imho bad morale. IKB should be demoed as any other feature, because it isn't all that special in it's current form.

Sorry to disagree but it has been able to withstand scrutiny from experienced TDs/ Riggers. Dont confuse buggy or badly designed software with not knowing how to use the software.
When IKB was first shown nobody knew how to use it properly other then people in Japan using it.
Showing off IKB is no different then showing off any other aspect of LW. Any person can take any aspect of LW and pick it apart of they wish. How useful it is boils down to individual needs/abilities and so on.
As I mentioned earlier Ive had the chance to not just demonstrate iKB to professionals but to also field questions, demonstrate particular tools, workflow etc etc.
Funny after all these years that they still oh and ah.
In fact many aspects of LW get people to Oh and Ah when demoed properly. What I do know that NOBODY was ever impressed by the typical Newtek demos with cartoony characters being demonstrated and DAVE school student work.

Surrealist.
07-21-2008, 09:28 AM
I don't agree as well.

The main reason is because NewTek does not have a plan for character animation. If they did, how hard would that be?

What I mean is, they can't say anything other than what they have said, which is we want to improve it. What else can be said? Do they have a list of things? If so where is it? And that is not rhetorical, I just don't know. (I don't mean 9.5)

I would say that it can't be too hard. If LightWave is as far behind on CA as people say it is, if all these experts who would be so inclined to poo poo LightWave should you bring out IKBoost and know that every other package has a certain set of features, how hard would it be to at the very least pick out the most compelling of those features in other apps and claim that LW will integrate that soon?

That would be easy. But it would not sell a single seat based on a promise.

The other thing wrong with the theory about LiwghtWave's "perception" and that all these CA pros would turn the other way is that they already have. That is not a strong argument and it is not even a realistic marketing strategy in regards to CA.

Reason is, that the pros who use LW are smart enough to know what it can and cant do. They see what LW can do for the price and they integrate that into their workflow. Lightwave is in many professional houses in Hollywood and elsewhere filling a very specific roll at times and in other times even more animation.

Demoing IKBoost with all of the new interest in it, the new look at the features and how they can be used now, would be a good thing for those on a budget and looking for a complete package to do things just like what Larry is doing. Not smart marketing to ignore a large part of your potential market based on an opinion that LW has to only appeal to a certain class of animators and if you can't please them, why don't even make a fool of yourself. I have a little bit of trouble with that.

Some people have to make animation quickly and cheaply for a living. Not every place has the same ideals nor even a need for them.

All of what I have just said assumes that IKB is the false promise the naysayers are claiming it to be. Again I see no downside to IKB.

I think they should show the new features of 9.5 and IKB.

I wan to see LightWave survive. And it takes money to do to a big show like that. Wasting everyones time with how you think you are going to be moving forward without anything to really show for it would be large waste of money. Peoples jobs at NewTek depend on sales. Not on future promises. People have to eat. IKB may not be what some people think it is. But it's pretty cool and it will appeal to a lot of people no matter how long it has been around. That will sell seats. People at Newtek can eat. We can move forward. Development will be much more smooth on a full stomach.

pauland
07-21-2008, 09:39 AM
Ultimately Newtek will decide what's best for them and an important part of that decision will be the relationships between the people involved. Running down people's work doesn't help sales nor foster good relationships.

Dexter2999
07-21-2008, 09:57 AM
Well, the Siggraph presentations aren't and don't have to be all targeted to seasoned artists. Some presentations are geared towards n00bs, new business as it were.

It would help a little if the set design/lighting could reflect the change in gears of the presentations. One look for newbies, use some wildfire paint and UV lights change colors or add some moving lights and go Pro.

There is nothing to say that texturing with nodes and IKB aren't valuable presentations when showing off what LightWave can do for 20% of the purchase price of another application. Or you show these presentations as things you gain when you upgrade from 3D Arsenal.

The guy making commercials for The Mattress Factory in Tallapoosa, AL doesn't have the same demands of software as Pixar. I'd love to see Newtek doing demonstrations like "The Human Calculator" where they take someone who doesn't know how to do something and have them use the product to crank something out by the end of the demo. Instead of theater seating do classroom style with rental computers. (not the whole audience but say 20 seats?) Let the people who want to learn something come up and follow along on a presentation. The might get hooked!

There is a downside to this though. It would mean that more forethought and planning need to go into the presentations. I enjoy just watching the videos, but alot of times I get lost because it is "on the fly" and mistakes are made. A presenter has to back up and fix something. Dealing with this kind of thing while trying to take in new information just overloads me everytime.

There is a market for 3d Arsenal. There is a Pixar part of the market. And there is a market in between. LightWave has a nice niche for themselves at the current price point. If you need more stuff you can tac it on as a plug in. It can't possibly hurt to demonstrate what you are getting with your initial purchase.

So, LightWave isn't turning out the same animation as a $5,000 package. Well, like anything you can't realisticaly expect to pay under a $1,000 for a package and expect it to function like a $5,000 package.....in any facet of life. A car, a tv, a computer, whatever...but you can demonstrate why your product is a good product for it's price.

KevinL
07-21-2008, 10:15 AM
All I can say. Is I am not an expert CA. In fact I've been frustrated in my attempts to to get going with CA. I watched larrys demo and ordered his DVD on IKB. I've now accomplished far more than I had in the past, plus this now has me enthusiastic about trying some things which frustrated me.

I didn't have a clear understanding of this tool, now I have a better understanding and it's encouraged me to move forward.

That can't be bad :)

Kevin L

Surrealist.
07-21-2008, 10:52 AM
You are right. It can't be bad at all. :)

HarverdGrad
07-21-2008, 01:01 PM
Have you attempted to contact me about this and when?

Are you implying you have the updated LW V.8 videos? If so, I'll PM you with my Order Details.

Regards,
-D

Chris S. (Fez)
07-21-2008, 01:42 PM
Is there a way to change the IKboost handles to world space?

roboanarchy
07-21-2008, 02:03 PM
Dude, I was being facetious. I know that's a big word, but it just means I was joking around.

But seriously, you might want to be a little less cocky. You could really embarrass yourself if you're not careful.

Eric

I'll be fine, you have much more to worry about than I do in that particular area, quite a mess indeed.

Maybe you should stop trying to "protect" people from knowledge?

I would be embarassed to no end to be in your position, naysaying something a bunch of people are happy about. You look like nothing less than a grade A mule. The fact that people are responding in a negative fashion to you would show you that you are a negative influence if you were capable of perceiving anything outside the walls of your own skull.

ericsmith
07-21-2008, 02:34 PM
I'll be fine, you have much more to worry about than I do in that particular area, quite a mess indeed.

What, you think I've created a mess? All I've done is responded to statements about "IKB detractors" that were not accurate.


Maybe you should stop trying to "protect" people from knowledge?

What "knowledge" am I trying to supress? If anything, I'm adding information to the mix, and giving those who are interested in character animation a more complete picture of IKB.

If anything, my continued efforts to get someone to show good final animation done with IKB could encourage those who are excited about it to not just tinker around, but actually get to work and produce something final. Whether they succeed or fail, that would make them more knowledgeable, not less.




I would be embarassed to no end to be in your position, naysaying something a bunch of people are happy about. You look like nothing less than a grade A mule. The fact that people are responding in a negative fashion to you would show you that you are a negative influence if you were capable of perceiving anything outside the walls of your own skull.

Go back and read my first post in this thread. I think I made my position clear, and I don't think anyone would find that position offensive. Except for Larry, who may be afraid that it would hurt his DVD sales.

But here's what I was really getting at when I responded to your post. The egotistical nature of proclaiming how amzingly talented you are almost guarantees that you are not. It's a sign of immaturity, and it ends up making you look really silly, especially if you are proven wrong. This is a pretty much universal truth that covers all of humanity, not just art.

If you are truly talented, you don't have to go around telling anyone. It becomes evident on it's own.

Eric

Nangleator
07-21-2008, 02:45 PM
... Except for Larry, who may be afraid that it would hurt his DVD sales.
Low blow.

I'm sure his income for IKB DVDs represents far less than one percent of his annual salary for this year. In any case, it's none of our business, and not fodder for attacks.

roboanarchy
07-21-2008, 02:48 PM
If you are truly talented, you don't have to go around telling anyone. It becomes evident on it's own.

And that is exactly how I know that I am talented. I have been hearing it for so many years from so many people that I have finally started to believe it. I am currently pursuing higher education in technical ability to try to find my way to the other side of the creative table and balance the two. I am sorry that you feel you have to make it seem like I have an ego when I was really just stating a fact. Your own ego has obviously blinded your ability to objectively respond to anything, as I have seen demonstrated so many times here. You need to stop trying to turn my posts back onto me and start reading them for what they are. You are the only person heavily bringing negativity to this discussion and I find it to be less than helpful. You obviously have a personal vendetta against Larry because he is outspoken about his use of a toolset that obviously rubs you raw. It's unfortunate that I have to inform you that your emotional state is plainly out on the buffet here for everyone to take a bite of. Please take a step back and realize what you are doing. Stop trying to get personal. DVD sales and my ego are none of your business.


I guess I have to try to just shoot straight from the hip and not say anything but exactly what I mean. Please stop talking in these threads about IKB if you do not want to contribute. This is an unsung feature of the software we are all using and altho I can only speak for myself I think that the gist of the two recent threads is that some LW users want to get it out there for other LW users to judge for themselves whether they like it or not. Please stop trying to rain on the parade.

littlewaves
07-21-2008, 02:50 PM
could you guys hold off for five minutes or so? I have to go get more popcorn

hrgiger
07-21-2008, 02:51 PM
Steve, my idea of the term constant claim is when someone raves about something like, oh say, XSI and when asked to show some examples of why its so great can only state that they cant because theyve only used it for a couple of weeks.

You have some pretty skewed ideas about how useful some software is based on who may or may not be using it on particular projects. Im sure your counterclaims come from years of experience in the industry and talking to other animators on a regular basis.

Its funny how, despite your deep industry insights, that people somehow manage to use LW despite whether it may or may not be used at some studio.

I dont know any animators/ 3d artists who purchase software based on what MAY or MIGHT be coming 3 years down the road. In this industry that may as well be 100 years. People purchase tools that will do what they need now.

I guess you would prefer that Newtek shut their doors and dont come out until they have something that just blows every other app away.

I didn't even mention XSI and you're bringing it up here. My point in responding to this thread is on what might be good for Newtek and Lightwave. If you think that pushing IKB is going to sell more seats of Lightwave, well, that's your opinion. But considering how little IKB has caught on after all this time, what makes you think it's going to be a big selling point now? We don't even know if Newtek plans on developing IKB any further at this point.

And yes you're right, a lot of artists won't buy software based on what May or Might be coming 3 years down the road. Exactly why I'm learning XSI, because they have the tools that I want now. I can't keep using Lightwave based on what they MAY or MIGHT do 3 years from now. When will they implement a non-destructive workflow for CA? I don't know, so for now, I'm learning what's already in another package. Hey, you brought it up.

Of course people use Lightwave, but I notice it's not being used overwhelmingly for a lot of character animation. Usually it's used for it's modeler or renderer. And yes, incidentally I have talked to a lot of other animators which helped me decide to try learning another software app to use in conjunction with Lightwave. The jury is still out on just how much.

And again, I don't have to be an expert at XSI to know that I can animate whatever I want, I can rig, model, and animate non-destructively because there's a stack, and I can model side by side with animating so skinning is not an issue. So yes, I am unable to show any good animation I have done with XSI at this point after the last few weeks, but then, you can't really show any good animation with Lightwave after years of using it so I'm not feeling too bad about it.

danielkaiser
07-21-2008, 03:04 PM
could you guys hold off for five minutes or so? I have to go get more popcorn

Wile your out could you get me a large diet coke and some goobers?

roboanarchy
07-21-2008, 03:05 PM
I think this would be a bad idea. Just imagine all the companies showing new technologies and talking about directions the software will take in the near future and then Newtek has someone showing off a tool that has been in the software for the last 3 or 4 years with no good examples of animations being accomplished with it. Newtek should be talking about the future and how they intend to move the software forward, not showing how usable the software can be if you just learn to make do with what you already have.

Knowing the way most people instinctively react when money is involved this makes very good sense, however I can't help but be concerned if the feature is, for lack of a better word, "undiscovered". A small demo by an artist who knows it extremely well might not hurt if you market it correctly. Perhaps add a new color coding feature and then sneak in a demo of the entire tool "This is what we have done for IKB in 9.5"

littlewaves
07-21-2008, 03:22 PM
Wile your out could you get me a large diet coke and some goobers?

well I could do but have you ever considered drinking Cherry Coke?

It got a really bad rap when it first came out and now hardly anyone drinks it anymore which I think is a real shame.

Still, each to his own I suppose. Live and let live I say

Not worth falling out over is it?

I'm not buying you the goobers though. I'm still mad at Nestlé

ericsmith
07-21-2008, 03:36 PM
Low blow.

I'm sure his income for IKB DVDs represents far less than one percent of his annual salary for this year. In any case, it's none of our business, and not fodder for attacks.

Take what I said in context. Everyone in this thread (and the other one) is interested in finding out whether or not IKB is a worthwile tool for creating character animation. With the exception of Larry, who is trying to convince everyone that it is, by offering free and for-sale demo videos. So if the information I present makes someone think twice about whether they should invest further in IKB, Larry could lose a sale from that person. So it would be logical for him to not want that to happen.

It wasn't intended as a "low blow" to Larry, just a logical rationale.

I want to make it clear, however, that it's not my intention to try and dissuade anyone from learning more about IKB. Just to give more information about it that's being swept under the rug by the other side.

Now here's the question. How come no one has called to question Larry's comments about how Newtek "isn't interested in dispelling the myth that Lightwave is capable of character animation, at least in regards to IKB"? Or the comments about how those of us who are "antagonists" (for simply having an understanding of the difference between FK and fulltime IK as it applies to interpolation between keyframes) "not having a clue what it is capable of".

I'd say the first one against Newtek was definitely a low blow.

I didn't say a word in either of these threads until I felt it was neccessary to respond to false statements made about me and others like me.

Eric

ericsmith
07-21-2008, 04:15 PM
And that is exactly how I know that I am talented. I have been hearing it for so many years from so many people that I have finally started to believe it. I am currently pursuing higher education in technical ability to try to find my way to the other side of the creative table and balance the two. I am sorry that you feel you have to make it seem like I have an ego when I was really just stating a fact. Your own ego has obviously blinded your ability to objectively respond to anything, as I have seen demonstrated so many times here. You need to stop trying to turn my posts back onto me and start reading them for what they are. You are the only person heavily bringing negativity to this discussion and I find it to be less than helpful. You obviously have a personal vendetta against Larry because he is outspoken about his use of a toolset that obviously rubs you raw. It's unfortunate that I have to inform you that your emotional state is plainly out on the buffet here for everyone to take a bite of. Please take a step back and realize what you are doing. Stop trying to get personal. DVD sales and my ego are none of your business.

Okay, you're saying that I'm the ONLY one bringing negativity to this discussion? There's no rational response to that.

In the bigger picture, you should spend a few minutes doing a search of this forum for posts I've made outside of this IKB debate. I make it a priority to be helpful, professional and courteous. Even in the IKB debates, I try to keep my posts grounded in the issues involved, not the other people posting. But unfortunately, there are a few people that get kind of irrational about the whole topic, and then things escellate. I would much rather these discussions didn't degenerate the way they do, but rather run their course as a good-natured conversation about all sides of the issue.

But through the years, I've gotten private messages from quality LW users that I respect thanking me for standing my ground and sharing my personal experience.

Eric

SplineGod
07-21-2008, 05:23 PM
Eric youre another one who seems to always pop up in discussions of IKB to slam it. I think its because you sell Maestro and look at it as a threat to your sales. Hes not the only one who feels you bring negativity into these discussions for a good reason: you do.
How about I search out every discussion on Maestro and post my opinion on it vs IKB? I somehow dont think you would feel the same with the shoe on ther other foot. If you notice I dont do that.

ericsmith
07-21-2008, 06:23 PM
Eric youre another one who seems to always pop up in discussions of IKB to slam it. I think its because you sell Maestro and look at it as a threat to your sales. Hes not the only one who feels you bring negativity into these discussions for a good reason: you do.

You know, just to be sure, I spent some time doing a search for ikboost in threads and all threads I've posted in.

The ONLY thread I found where I said anything that could possibly be construed as negative was over two years ago, and basically here's what happened. You responded to another person's post questioning the locking down of the feet issue with IKB that it was just as difficult to lock down Fulltime IK goals because of spline overshoot. I dissagreed with your statement, and mentioned that it was frustrating that there were absolutely zero examples of quality animation produced with IKB. During the course of that thread, I tried to pin you down on specific technical issues, but you avoided the issues and instead, started personally attacking people like pooby and Peter Thomas. Things in that thread ended up getting pretty ugly, but you were the one throwing most of the mud. I even tried to mediate between you and Peter Thomas, who was gracious about it, whereas you just kept on with the mudslinging.

I've had discussions with other IKB proponents (ie. omeone) that have been polite and civil on both sides since then (I've even defended it to some extent), but overall I've been pretty uninvolved.

It was when you started making disparaging statements against Newtek and all us "IKB antagonists" that I felt it neccessary to step in and defend myself.

And really, all I, and hrgiger, and pooby, etc. are doing is bringing up issues with IKB that may seriously hinder an animator from accomplishing the goal of creating good animation. Sure, you can call that negativity, but in the end, it will hopefully help those who are exploring the tools to better understand what's really happening when they end up struggling to get good results.

Eric

ericsmith
07-21-2008, 06:32 PM
How about I search out every discussion on Maestro and post my opinion on it vs IKB? I somehow dont think you would feel the same with the shoe on ther other foot. If you notice I dont do that.

If I started making unprovoked disparaging statements against "autorigger antagonists", you probably would.

The fact is, I don't post about Maestro unless someone asks a question, or I'm demoing a new feature. I've never tried to push Maestro in any of the IKB threads, or anywhere else that I'm not asked. People have even posted threads specifically asking what the best autorigger is, and I point out T4d's product, the free autorigger on flay, and Maestro without bias.

So stop throwing Maestro in my face every time you don't like what I have to say about IKB.

I swear, you're acting like a child here. It's getting rediculous.

Eric

SplineGod
07-22-2008, 01:17 AM
Are you implying you have the updated LW V.8 videos? If so, I'll PM you with my Order Details.

Regards,
-D

Im not implying anything other then simply asking if youve tried to contact me about any problems or issues :)

SplineGod
07-22-2008, 01:45 AM
Eric,
I think he called it accurately. It is a low blow but thats pretty much what weve come to expect from you just like knowing you cant resist slamming IKB when you have the chance. Any excuse to jump into it. Ive noticed that you dont hesitate to take things down a notch if people dont agree with you. So now Im part of a conspiracy to secretly extract money from ppl by hyping IKB and then selling them training.

Im also very glad that you are Newteks self appointed defender of the faith. You assume that my comments are unfounded. I wouldnt have said them if they werent true.
Im also proud of all your emails congratulating you on being a fine upstanding citizen. You deserve it.
I find it a tad weird that you are keeping some kind of tabs on me about what Ive supposedly said in done in threads going back months...kinda creepy in my book.
Looking at all that together I can truely see how you could easily see your own behavior as mature, logical and grounded.

evenflcw
07-22-2008, 07:55 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=724969&postcount=49

Good post Surrealist. :)



Most who "slam" IKB are simply presenting the other side of the picture. Imho, Larry often only present the good sides and omitt the down side. Nothing is perfect, and so legitimate critisisim should be allowed to provide everyone with a more balanced view. IE people should be allowed to bring up the bad points aswell without being jumped at and accussed of "slamming". They are just telling it from their pov, and it happens to include some negative views. IS THAT WRONG? IS THAT BAD?

Surrealist.
07-22-2008, 08:10 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=724969&postcount=49

Good post Surrealist. :)



Most who "slam" IKB are simply presenting the other side of the picture. Imho, Larry often only present the good sides and omitt the down side. Nothing is perfect, and so legitimate critisisim should be allowed to provide everyone with a more balanced view. IE people should be allowed to bring up the bad points aswell without being jumped at and accussed of "slamming". They are just telling it from their pov, and it happens to include some negative views. IS THAT WRONG? IS THAT BAD?

Thanks and Yeah. Some good points there too on your part too. :)

And so I guess I don't think any of is bad. Just when the mud starts to sling it gets in the way and clouds the issues with personal attacks and all kind of wild accusations of a personal and often assumed nature on both sides and I do mean both sides. I love the free flow of information. The only point where I kind of draw the line is when it gets too much along the lines of offering solutions that are not found in LW. I think Larry made some very compelling arguments there.

Thing is, yes, it is good to know about. It well-rounds your perspective and I love having that information even if it is purely theoretical. But when it gets to be too much too often and always as a solution to a problem it is really not a solution at all it is merely an irritating distraction.

Where it goes south is when people get personal and defensive and then they hold their package/tool of choice up as the thing to make that other person wrong with. What happens is it makes LightWave/or the tool wrong too. And that is distracting.

A good discussion is not always easy yo find but despite all of the bickering things do get opened up and that is a good thing in the end.

colkai
07-22-2008, 08:16 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=724969&postcount=49

Good post Surrealist. :)
Agreed,
I thought myself that surely showing what LW can do now would be a good move. Ok, it may not be "cutting edge", but showing that a tool exists to get certain jobs done rather than ignoring it because of problems or limitations has got to be better.
After all, Mr Gates has no trouble demoing software that crashes regularly! ;)

I don't see how Newtek can talk about what may be on the CA side for the next release, as it isn't there yet, so showing the "traditional" tools in Lw and then good examples of IKB may just be enough, as Surrealist says, to encourage new seat purchases for studios / freelancers / hobbyists on limited budgets. There is a wider market there now Softimage has decided you need to pay $3000 to get into their software.

P.S. - Darned eloquent handling and said much better could have said BTW Surrealist! :D

Surrealist.
07-22-2008, 08:32 AM
Agreed,
I thought myself that surely showing what LW can do now would be a good move. Ok, it may not be "cutting edge", but showing that a tool exists to get certain jobs done rather than ignoring it because of problems or limitations has got to be better.
After all, Mr Gates has no trouble demoing software that crashes regularly! ;)

I don't see how Newtek can talk about what may be on the CA side for the next release, as it isn't there yet, so showing the "traditional" tools in Lw and then good examples of IKB may just be enough, as Surrealist says, to encourage new seat purchases for studios / freelancers / hobbyists on limited budgets. There is a wider market there now Softimage has decided you need to pay $3000 to get into their software.

P.S. - Darned eloquent handling and said much better could have said BTW Surrealist! :D

Thanks! :) And yeah. good point about XSI too. I had not even considered that, but yeah pulling foundation does leave a gap in there.

ericsmith
07-22-2008, 08:38 AM
I think he called it accurately. It is a low blow but thats pretty much what weve come to expect from you just like knowing you cant resist slamming IKB when you have the chance. Any excuse to jump into it. Ive noticed that you dont hesitate to take things down a notch if people dont agree with you.

This is outright BS. As I said, there have been plenty of threads about IKB over the years that I've not gotten involved in at all, or if I have, presented my views politely and evenly.

And talk about taking it down a notch if people don't agree with me. Why is it that whenever anyone presents facts about IKB, instead of responding with more facts, you immediately turn around and attack them personally? If I say something about interpolation between keyframes (boy, talk about low), then you immediately turn around and make underhanded slants at Maestro.


So now Im part of a conspiracy to secretly extract money from ppl by hyping IKB and then selling them training.

See, this is the kind of rediculous behavior I'm talking about. You run a business that sells training material on IKB. I simply pointed that out. I never implied there was some kind of "secret conspiracy". It's this kind of twisting around of the facts that make it very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you.


Im also very glad that you are Newteks self appointed defender of the faith. You assume that my comments are unfounded. I wouldnt have said them if they werent true.

You made comments in bad taste. It's that simple. I don't know how my pointing that out merits the kind of sarcastic and immature statement above. And I don't ASSUME your comments are unfounded, I KNOW they are. We've both been in the same threads where Jay spoke very clearly about the issues with IKB. You just can't accept his position, so you're running around trying to gain support so you can change his mind. Honestly, it's kind of pathetic.


I find it a tad weird that you are keeping some kind of tabs on me about what Ive supposedly said in done in threads going back months...kinda creepy in my book.

Again, rediculous. You accused me of jumping on every post about IKB and trying to spread negativity. I simply did a search to see if there was any truth to your statement.

Once I did that, I presented what I found.

You make it sound like I'm secretly stalking you or something.

But it's worth pointing out that what you say on these forums doesn't just dissapear. A quick search can easily seperate fact from fiction.

Eric

SplineGod
07-22-2008, 08:49 AM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=724969&postcount=49

Good post Surrealist. :)



Most who "slam" IKB are simply presenting the other side of the picture. Imho, Larry often only present the good sides and omitt the down side. Nothing is perfect, and so legitimate critisisim should be allowed to provide everyone with a more balanced view. IE people should be allowed to bring up the bad points aswell without being jumped at and accussed of "slamming". They are just telling it from their pov, and it happens to include some negative views. IS THAT WRONG? IS THAT BAD?

If I feel from my EXPERIENCE that theres a dowside Ill say so and believe me I do.That goes for any part of LW.
In fact I was told by someone at Newtek that he felt that my first IKB video was somewhat negative towards LW because I did point out weaknesses. At the same time if I do so I will also point out solutions or ways around those issues.
Most of the issues brought up by hte same people here IMO stem from a misunderstnading of how IKB work and from very little to no experience actually using it for an extended period in actual production. Most of the detractors admit only little to limited use or experimentation. If those same people are as balanced as they claim to be WHY dont they post all the good things IKB can do? The reason, IMO, is because they dont know all the good things IKB brings to the table which goes back to what Ive said before about judging tools without knowing how to use them.
I also tend to find that introducing people to a new feature (for them) is usually best done by starting out showing what you can do with a tool first. I think you would agree with that because its only common sense. After that its easier to help eople past problems that do stem from bugs, bad designs, misunderstanding of the tools or workflow etc. NONE of the people who slam IKB have ever demonstrated ONE positive thing about iKB or is willing to talk about those positive aspects and Im sure you will admit that IKB has many positive aspects. :)

Rich I just wanted to say that youve really surprised me. Good going :)

SplineGod
07-22-2008, 09:13 AM
The times youre polite in those threads are few and far between or when youre taking your lithium.
You certainly come across as resonable and polite in this thread.

You also assume that, like you, my comments about Newtek are only derived from posts on forums. Believe me thats not the case. Dont assume that just because you derive your information solely from forums that I do. If Im speculating Ill say so. I also think that Newtek and their employees are quite capable of defending themselves if they feel they need to. I dount think they need you or anybody else acting as their self appointed spokesperson.

Apparently other people on this thead get the impression from you that you are stalking and they pointed it out to you. I find it pretty easy to separate fact from fiction simply by staying grounded in reality.

Chuck
07-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Larry, you're really not on the high ground, and NewTek staff shouldn't have to be defending themselves for anything other than public posts on this forum, as opposed to private conversations being reported thoroughly out of context. Unless you'd like us to reconsider the wisdom of offering that level of trust, you might want to reconsider what you choose to do with it.


To All:

Discussing opinions on the tools and discussing opinions on the exhibited work produced with the tools is central to the consideration of how useful the tools are, and should be expected and taken without rancor. Discussing personalities and taking the discussion into personal criticisms and insult is not.

That's enough for this thread.