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ScorpioProd
06-28-2008, 03:22 AM
Just putting in a request again for smart rendering.

The last time someone started a thread on this, the thread was hopelessly derailed very quickly to something unrelated, which is why I didn't revive the old thread.

Anyway, as compression formats get more and more complicated, smart rendering becomes more important.

Smart rendering not only saves time for DV and HDV, but can also save time in more complicated formats such as Sony's VBR Long-GOP MPEG-2 codecs.

I was very impressed to see Vegas Pro 8 doing a smart render of my 35Mb/s VBR MPEG-2 MXF footage today. Since the vast majority of my project could use smart rendering, I literally ended up with a real-time render of my full project to a clip. And this is on an ancient dual-Xeon 2.8GHz system.

Smart rendering would be a big improvement for SpeedEDIT.

The current reality that even doing a cuts-only edit in SpeedEDIT results in the loss of a generation is not a good thing.

mvansomeren
06-28-2008, 08:11 AM
The current reality that even doing a cuts-only edit in SpeedEDIT results in the loss of a generation is not a good thing.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but in speaking with Newtek, the generation loss you mention is not incoporated in the final render output. In other words, the background render is not used during the final render thereby creating a two generation loss. It's only used for editing and viewing purposes. So true, what you are viewing is a one generation loss, but if you think about it, you are seeing what the final render will look like, since the final render will be a one generation loss.

My point is that in Vegas (or any other NLE that uses smart render), when you are previewing your edit, you will see footage that is actually playback from the original material (with the exception perhaps of transitions). But when you produce a final render, it will have a one generation loss and will not look as good as what you saw in your preview. At least in SE, what you see is what you get, essentially. Yes, I understand many will not even notice the difference in one generation loss.

As far as smart render is concerned, because I work mostly with HDV (.m2t), not having smart render hasn't casued me any time delay in editing. Even when you first drop the clip on the timeline, while it's "conforming" (i.e., background rendering), I can edit immediately. I've also used .AVI, MP2, MP1, .MOV and haven't experienced any real issues, so I'm curious as to which formats/codecs cause you to wait for rendering in SE?

Jim_C
06-28-2008, 08:37 AM
My point is that in Vegas (or any other NLE that uses smart render), when you are previewing your edit, you will see footage that is actually playback from the original material (with the exception perhaps of transitions). But when you produce a final render, it will have a one generation loss and will not look as good as what you saw in your preview. At least in SE, what you see is what you get, essentially. Yes, I understand many will not even notice the difference in one generation loss.


But there will be no generation loss in Vegas' render due to the smart rendering that is uses and is being requested for SE.

:)

(on the road to derailment)

mvansomeren
06-28-2008, 09:37 AM
Okay, please elaborate. On a final render out, how are the two NLE's final render outputs different? If you start with .m2t files, edit them and and output a .m2t file, how does smart render or not having smart render affect the output? Perhaps I don't really understand what smart render is. I thought it was just the fact that it only renders parts of the timeline that changes, not the entire timeline. Again, the rendering on the timeline in SE does not impact the final render output. The final output is rendered from the original source clips, not the background rendered files.

billmi
06-28-2008, 02:45 PM
With SE, the original clip is read, converted to uncompressed video, then rendered. One generation of manipulation, regardless of how many layers or what was background rendered.

For smart rendering systems, the original clip is read, and if it is not modified (no transitions, effects, etc., it's raw data is simply copied to the output file - no rendering occurs. Only segments with effects get rendered.

Smart rendering, means that everytime you do a dissolve or effect, you suddenly switch between original and 1+ generation of manipulation. With traditional film editing - especially in older color films, you'd see changes like this - where the image quality jumps when a dissolve starts. The difference of one generation in modern video formats is usually small enough that this will not be noticable - however, if that is the case, then there isn't really an image quality advantage to smart-rendering, either.

Speed is the plus though - because it's much faster to copy data, then to re-render video.

mvansomeren
06-28-2008, 03:37 PM
Thanks billmi, now I understand the difference. My personal preference would be consistent video quality...not changing during transitions or effects, even if it is one generation of manipulaton...but that's just me. So I guess it really comes down to speed when rendering the final output.

So if Newtek does add that feature, my vote would be to have the ablity to switch it on or off.

Quiet1onTheSet
06-28-2008, 05:47 PM
Thanks billmi, now I understand the difference. My personal preference would be consistent video quality...not changing during transitions or effects, even if it is one generation of manipulaton...but that's just me. So I guess it really comes down to speed when rendering the final output.

So if Newtek does add that feature, my vote would be to have the ablity to switch it on or off.Think of it: If you dropped several different clips into a project, and edited it cuts only -- and without adding any processing like slow motion, color tweaking, etc. -- it would be commensurate with the product name, to have SpeedEDIT "smart-render" the project, which would then result not only in increased rendering speed, but also in that extra umph in image quality.

After all, you alluded to the idea that a 1-generation quality difference is hardly noticeable for most viewers; and I might agree with you, especially if the 1-generation degradation was taking place mostly during DVE sequences, and entire clips which were color processed. But if NewTek gifted us with the feature, and also gave us the ability to turn it off, then, that'll suit me fine too.

That said, please allow me this correction: IFAIK, the conforming activity you see, when dropping the clip to the timeline is not background rendering, per se, as you suggest -- but rather, during "conforming", SpeedEDIT is performing a processing function which results in the drawing out of the audio waveform, for the clips placed in your project.

Q1

mvansomeren
06-28-2008, 06:27 PM
That said, please allow me this correction: IFAIK, the conforming activity you see, when dropping the clip to the timeline is not background rendering, per se, as you suggest -- but rather, during "conforming", SpeedEDIT is performing a processing function which results in the drawing out of the audio waveform, for the clips placed in your project.

Q1

Well, that could be true. I was told it was background rendering by a Newtek rep.

Thanks,

Quiet1onTheSet
06-28-2008, 06:33 PM
Well, that could be true. I was told it was background rendering by a Newtek rep.

Thanks,Of note, is that we don't see the "conforming" indicator unless a new clip containing audio is dropped into a project. (Try dropping a clip with no audio, and see if the same occurs).

Also, when a DVE is placed in the project, no "conforming" indicator is shown, so I am inclined to lean toward the idea that the audio waveform is being constructed during that "conforming" function.

But it's conceivable that the NewTek rep's notion has some truth in it, that I'm not aware of...

Q1

mvansomeren
06-28-2008, 08:46 PM
Well, I'm all for anything to improve SE. But Smart Render or not, SpeedEdit is still my favorite NLE. I have used PP 6 through CS3, Edius 4, Vegas 8, and they are all good. I still go to them occasionally as needed. But SpeedEdit is my #1. Maybe it's because I started Linear Editing with the original Toaster on the Amiga computer, then my first NLE, the Toaster Flyer, etc... ? :thumbsup:

Quiet1onTheSet
06-29-2008, 07:23 PM
Well, I'm all for anything to improve SE. But Smart Render or not, SpeedEdit is still my favorite NLE...Maybe it's because I started Linear Editing with the original Toaster on the Amiga computer, then my first NLE, the Toaster Flyer, etc... ? :thumbsup:Same here, MV.

Q1

ScorpioProd
06-29-2008, 09:27 PM
Same here, MV.

Q1
I wish I could say the same, really, I do. But not for me.

I started off with the Video Toaster, and added the Flyer. I was doing NLEing in 1994 with $2500 4GB drives. Not many could say that.

I built my business on Newtek products.

I stuck with them, even when VT was rather late in recognizing the value and importance of native DV support, and some of the teething problems it had with DV.

Then I even waited for SpeedEDIT to come out for HDV support, when I could have started editing HDV two years earlier.

SpeedEDIT was highly anticipated by a lot of us, but the features fell short for a lot of us when it actually came out, even with the extra time we had waited for it.

Although SpeedEDIT has some cool features that other NLEs don't have, overall it has fallen behind in "total" features. While it was adding HDV support that others already had, the other NLEs were not sitting still.

If it does what you need, that's cool. But if not, you really need to go to other NLEs as I have.

Even something that seems relatively minor, like smart rendering, can make a difference.

If SpeedEDIT could support XDCAM HD MXF, which it can't, I still wouldn't be doing my current project in it without smart rendering.

I need the maximum quality for a MPEG-2 compressed stream, with cuts-only edits, and there's no way I want to have to recompress MPEG-2 if I don't need to.

mvansomeren
06-29-2008, 10:23 PM
I think we all agree that there isn't one NLE that meets everyone's needs. That's why I and I'm sure others also have Vegas, PP CS3, Edius, etc. and go to them when needed...like going to Vegas for slo-mo.

To me, SE hasn't fully matured. Hopefully version 1.8 will address many short comings. Just look at how many version Adobe Premier went through before people started taking it seriously.

SE just flows better for me than any of the other NLEs. And Smart-Render aside, produces some really nice work...quickly.

ted
06-30-2008, 08:43 PM
Although SpeedEDIT has some cool features that other NLEs don't have, overall it has fallen behind in "total" features.


Eugene, with all due respect my friend. How has SE "fallen behind"?
It's not even at 1.8 yet for goodness sake.
What build of Vegas are you using? What build is AVID on? How long has Premier been out? FCP?

SpeedEDIT isn't that far behind ANY of them and is better ALL of them in some ways.

I know perfect slo-mo is a pain not to have. The smart rendering could be implemented and the method of TimeCode display I want is only available by 3rd party.

But there really aren't the amount of showstoppers you imply, nearly daily, as you claim to have moved on to "other applications".

In the last 2 years NewTek has advanced VT more then the previous 8 years by my perspective. Released a non-hardware editor which was being asked for. Added High Def support which was life or death by many users statements. And did it much better than many NLE's.
All while adding a shltload of new products for us end users.

NewTek is moving forward faster than ever by my perspective.

Maybe I'm misreading you, and maybe you are intending to get them motivated, but it seems like you never miss a chance to piss on SpeedEDIT even if your point isn't part of the conversation.
And maybe I'm just in need of a vacation! :D

Either way, is there ANYTHING you do like about SpeedEDIT? :bowdown:
Back to work I go. :D

ScorpioProd
06-30-2008, 11:12 PM
So because a product is new it doesn't need to compete with what existing systems can do? Nah, come on, we know that's not the way business works. It doesn't matter what version any software is up to or not up to, it needs to compete with what's currently out there. That's the reality of the marketplace. NLEs are commodities.

You know as well as I do how much was expected for SpeedEDIT that didn't end up in SpeedEDIT. You also know the endless feature request lists that I and others have posted in this forum since then. And certainly, some of those feature requests have been granted, but there really are a lot of basics still missing.

Oddly enough, the things that SpeedEDIT can do uniquely better than other NLEs aren't things that are marketed as selling points. In fact, the biggest ones I haven't heard mentioned in probably a year.

Like pseudo-HDV out in real-time. That seemed like a KILLER feature! You're closer to Newtek than me, Ted, have you heard it mentioned AT ALL in promoting SpeedEDIT? I haven't, I wouldn't be surprised if many didn't even know that feature is in there.

The stabilizer and color matcher are GREAT features in the toolshed. Are they promoted? Again, I don't hear them being promoted. Although the toolshed certainly needs work in organization, it is a great concept.

Then there's the Control Tree, that's a very clever method of organizing things together, and I think it works very well, better than other NLEs do it.

These features I just pointed out are SPECIFIC features that SpeedEDIT does better than ANY other NLE I know, yet I bet most customers, and more importantly prospective customers, don't know these features exist!

I point this out since that leaves people to compare the more boring, basic features, and, IMHO, those features can be lacking at times in SpeedEDIT. This is ironic really when one looks back at history, where DVEs were really what sold a lot of Video Toasters.

SpeedEDIT has some great, flashy features, but do people know about them or hear about them?

Yay, SpeedEDIT can do real-time DV out, yeah, well, that was useful a few years back when everyone was mastering out to DV tape. Are many actually doing that nowadays? More importantly, SpeedEDIT isn't unique in being able to do that, and it wasn't the first to do it, either.

I honestly don't believe that when people wanted an unbundled VT-EDIT, they literally wanted "just" that. There have always been a number of significant limitations in the VT-EDIT feature set, and surprisingly, those limitations came forward into the "new" SpeedEDIT.

Missing features like DVEs with alpha channel, grouping clips, filters attaching to clips, clip time code window burning, subprojects with full clip control, interpolated slow motion, etc.

In no way am I saying that every NLE needs all the same features, if that was the case, there wouldn't be different NLEs needed. BUT there are basic functions that are needed in all NLEs, one way or another. Just cause it's in another NLE, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in SpeedEDIT.

Ignoring my personal show stopper of the lack of XDCAM HD support, there are still a significant number of show stopper issues in there, IF they are functions you need.

Of course, some don't need those functions, or use those functions, so I guess that's why they don't see these limitations.

But anyway, smart render as a choice: A good idea.

And yes Ted, I am passionate about Newtek tools, since as I pointed out in the previous post, I have been with them a long time, and I wish I still could be. But though it is fine to have many NLEs in one's tool kit, one tends to only end up mastering one and being an expert in one at a time. There's simply not enough time in the day, or frankly motivation, to master more NLEs than you need to do your job.

I agree with you that I think Newtek has advanced more in the TriCaster era than they have since the original Video Toaster, in terms of the TriCaster.

But I honestly don't see SpeedEDIT at that level of advancement. I'm not saying TriCaster isn't where Newtek's money is, it clearly is, I'm just saying that SpeedEDIT needs to advance, too.

And Newtek are the only ones that can make that happen, but ONLY if they decide to.

rycar_m
07-01-2008, 08:51 AM
I agree with scorpio in all respect and would like to add that one of the coolest thing about se is the storyboard editing which I know is not usefull for everyone imop is because on not understanding this tool.

You don't know how bad i am treated in forums likee liquid os premiere when i ask about this feature. in the minds of most, storyboard editing is consumer stuff no worthy of professionals.

I think that "SE" should be further developed right now i just use se to build and edit my timeline then i finnish elsewhere.

It would be cool if se integrated with lightwave as combustion is to 3dmax.

ric