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View Full Version : LW8 : Rigging - New Teaser



Stranahan
07-25-2003, 01:01 PM
One of the big new changes to rigging in LightWave is the inclusion of the complete set of tools formally called the Orthapedics plug-in set, for Irrational Number.

For those of you not familiar, these tools really change the workflow for most people doing character animation in LightWave. No more 'Skelagons - go to Layout to test - back to Modeler to fix - lose all changes - repeat'.

You rig wherever you want - Modeler with Skelagons or Layour with methods like draw bones. These tools - and there are over a dozen of them - let you do the rigging work you need, where you need it.

More importantly to the long term view of LightWave, the team behind these tools are now on the LightWave development team - so let's have a nice LightWave welcome to Peter Jespersen and Steve Forcucci. They will be adding enhancements and intergration to this new and very exciting set of tools.

Here's a quick tease about just one small part of the toolset...

http://www.learnlightwave.com/pv_cb.mov

And you can learn a LOT more if you attend the free training at SIGGRAPH on Monday.

robinson
07-25-2003, 01:15 PM
:D Can I pay more for the Lightwave update ? Hehehe...

Doug Nicola
07-25-2003, 01:21 PM
Those are killer tools!

Great to hear the development team behind Ortho is now with Newtek!

trick
07-25-2003, 01:46 PM
Does this mean the tools are not available anymore till release of [8] ?!?!?!

milkman
07-25-2003, 01:53 PM
does this mean I can do weightmaps within Layout too?

Or does that still happen within modeler?

trick
07-25-2003, 01:54 PM
And If you wanna fully integr[8] Orthopaedics make sure I can edit a complete bone structure inside motion Mixer after it has been animated and inserted in its timeline so I dont have to go back to the beginning if I change clothes on a character and the creases don't fall like I want....

Just a simple example

trick
07-25-2003, 01:59 PM
In the end I just wanna reuse all motions, whereever they are created (layout or motion mixer) with whatever tools (expressions,plugins,IK,FK, mixed IK/FK) on a new character with as little adjustments as possible...Finally I would like to reduce the whole setup to an FK structure (keyreduced graphs on ALL bones, also those with expressions!!!) so 100 characters won't crash/slowdown workflow !!!!

manfriday
07-25-2003, 02:02 PM
BAH!
I already bought those!

takkun
07-25-2003, 02:06 PM
I wonder if they're going to include the Bone Master plugin too (aka Calcium). That plug-in looked bloody marvelous!

trick
07-25-2003, 02:12 PM
A TEASER make Orthopaedics Pack A available to ALL users...

...and make Pack B or whatever HAD been finished available to ALL registered Pack A users...

Stranahan
07-25-2003, 02:18 PM
There's no pack A or B anymore - just cool tools for LightWave[8]

manfriday
07-25-2003, 02:20 PM
oh well. Peter is a cool dude. IM glad my 65 bucks went to him,
I hope he bought lots of beer with it.

trick
07-25-2003, 02:22 PM
So now I have to wait a half year for the tools that were included in Orthopaedics...or can I ask a registered (OLD) Orthopaedics user if he can mail me the OLD Pack A tools ?!?!?

trick
07-25-2003, 02:23 PM
Ooo....BTW...I'm still prepared to pay $65...even if they will be included in [8]

SplineGod
07-25-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by trick
In the end I just wanna reuse all motions, whereever they are created (layout or motion mixer) with whatever tools (expressions,plugins,IK,FK, mixed IK/FK) on a new character with as little adjustments as possible...Finally I would like to reduce the whole setup to an FK structure (keyreduced graphs on ALL bones, also those with expressions!!!) so 100 characters won't crash/slowdown workflow !!!!
HERE (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69762) is a current solution to that. Needless to say displacement baking will be far better in LW8. :)
You can leave the bones inside for retweaking. :)

SplineGod
07-25-2003, 03:32 PM
I dont think anyone will be waiting 6 months for anything in LW8 :) The version of Ortho going into 8 is MUCH more powerful then the $65.00 version they were selling. $65 bucks for what the tools do is a great bargain. Wait til you see what comes out in 8. :)

PeterJ
07-25-2003, 03:54 PM
Sorry to anyone who might feel slighted by all this but I think what all of you gain from this will far out way the early sacrifices.
Like forking out a wopping $65 bucks! :)
Hey manfriday your $65 bucks went towards a new c++ compiler so if you stick around long enough I bet you get it back.:)
All of this means tools that are tightly integrated into LW. Also a lot of the inhancements that your all throwing around will now be possible. Our goal has always been to look for ways to increase productivity in LW and make all of our animating lives a bit more enjoyable. That goal is even more attainable now.
Do me a favor though. If any of you have suggestions PLEASE do not say "I want this. Like in XXXX".
Tell us you want something like this in XXXX only much much better!

Stranahan
07-25-2003, 03:58 PM
Pete,

You're going to be at the party on Monday, correct?

Dodgy
07-25-2003, 03:59 PM
MUCH more powerful? They are going to kick some serious butt.... I already own the current pack (arrgh! LOL) and they are just what an animator needs. Now they're going to be more powerful AND included with LW 8? God almighty!

manfriday
07-25-2003, 04:08 PM
a c++ compiler?!
what a waste! I was hoping youd spend it on booze and cheap hookers!

PeterJ
07-25-2003, 04:08 PM
Ya Lee I'll be there!
This should be fun! The club looks awsome!

trick
07-25-2003, 04:11 PM
SplineGOD,

Unless you have a multi-multi-multi-GIG memory machines setup, have you ever tried animating 100 MDScanned characters ???

Peter,

Still waiting for an answer to my question: will the old tools still be available for $65 ???

PeterJ
07-25-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by manfriday
I was hoping youd spend it on booze and cheap hookers!
Nahh! I got all that out of the way in one very long bender.;)

PeterJ
07-25-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by trick

Peter,

Still waiting for an answer to my question: will the old tools still be available for $65 ???

Nope I dont think they'll be available..sorry.
But i doesn't hurt to ask. :)

hrgiger
07-25-2003, 04:17 PM
Good news, I've been waiting for skelegon functionality in modeler for some time.

Any word yet on just how fast IK will be in 8 or is there any significant change? I notice we're going to have some sort of auto character setup... I use ACS4 now and even though I love it, sometimes the standard ACS4 rig can be a little slow to work with here and there.

trick
07-25-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by PeterJ
Nope I dont think they'll be available..sorry.
But i doesn't hurt to ask. :)

Please...keep the user in mind !!!

Stranahan
07-25-2003, 04:34 PM
NewTek kept the user in mind, and aquired the plug-ins to integrate into LightWave[8]. We think they are a great addition, but that's the only way they will available from this point out.

SplineGod
07-25-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by trick
SplineGOD,

Unless you have a multi-multi-multi-GIG memory machines setup, have you ever tried animating 100 MDScanned characters ???

B]
I would composite them in layers.
At this point I think Newtek is probably the place you need to ask about Ortho. :)

trick
07-25-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
I would composite them in layers.



Yes, I know....but I hate compositing these kind of things..

SplineGod
07-25-2003, 04:54 PM
You could also use a lot of very low poly standins or turn the subpatch level way way down. You can try baking the motions onto the bones as well. There is also the Level Of Detail tools you can use too. With a 100 characters its just going to slow down. :)

trick
07-25-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
You could also use a lot of very low poly standins or turn the subpatch level way way down. You can try baking the motions onto the bones as well. There is also the Level Of Detail tools you can use too. With a 100 characters its just going to slow down. :)

LOD (for subpatches)tools give artifacts at the frame where the level changes. I'm animating with "naked" models subpatch level 0 or 1 and in some cases with standins. I could indeed bake to bones...but with the complicated structures in ACS4 ?!?!?!

Stranahan
07-25-2003, 05:25 PM
Are you working on a project with 100 characters?

These are the kinds of problems that professionals deal with every day in all packages, really. There are different solutions. If one solution creates an artifcact on one frame, you roto that frame or set up a fade or or or....

It's hard to tell whether you are throwing out theoretical problems ad infinitum, or have a shot you're having trouble with.

takkun
07-25-2003, 05:42 PM
trick, you should pick up the latest 3D world magazine, it has an article describing how they did the hordes of vampires in the final episode of Buffy in Lightwave, there was well over a hundred characters in that scene (probably thousands).

trick
07-25-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Stranahan
Are you working on a project with 100 characters?

These are the kinds of problems that professionals deal with every day in all packages, really. There are different solutions. If one solution creates an artifcact on one frame, you roto that frame or set up a fade or or or....

It's hard to tell whether you are throwing out theoretical problems ad infinitum, or have a shot you're having trouble with.

I'm not whining here...there is a solution for every problem. There are a myriad of tricks, pseudo tricks or the like. But hey...can you forgive me to ask for an (old) solution that NT would be glad to incorporate in their next big update. It's not just the 100 characters (which BTW are just 50 in ONE scene BUT these are all UNIQUE) but it's also the fact that these are setup in Motion Mixer and I really would like to have the easiest way to reuse my rig and different motions on all these characters. I'm really glad there are people that do not hesitate to offer all kind of solutions, but that was NOT the point here. I just wanted to hear a clear (professional) statement that Orthopaedics hs suddenly left the stage and will not be available anymore. Knowing this...I can let myself go with all my creativity and hope [8] will make life easier in due time !!!

milkman
07-25-2003, 06:15 PM
*raises his hand*

can we have some more teasers?

:)

please?

:)

evenflcw
07-25-2003, 06:27 PM
Trick, I certainly hope you didn't use a subpatchlevel of 0 for the LOD as that turns smoothing of completely, giving you the same look as the cage. Don't go below 1!

Other than that, I'm with MilkMan, more teasers please :)

trick
07-25-2003, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by evenflcw
Trick, I certainly hope you didn't use a subpatchlevel of 0 for the LOD as that turns smoothing of completely, giving you the same look as the cage. Don't go below 1!



There is a display patch level and a render patch level: for setup I'm only interested in display and if I only need gross distant movement I set this to 0.

But hey... indeed...let's not spoil the fun here...my main question has been answered !!!!

Elmar Moelzer
07-26-2003, 06:37 AM
ANother important thing to keep in mind, when working with loads of detiled subapatch- objects:
They render signifficantly(!) slower than a frozen version of the same object.
Actually you could very well freeze the object one or two levels higher and still have it render faster as frozen objects render up to 300% faster!
So if you are working with hundreds of objects a good idea might be to freeze some of them before rendering. I am not too experienced with MD- scan and all that, but from all I have heard freezing the objects in Modeler, should not make any difference when using MD- Scan (Larry?).
CU
Elmar

CB_3D
07-26-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Ortho going into 8 is MUCH more powerful

Great news, Larry!

Will the editing of bones with the ortho tools (particularily that Jointmover tool) also translate to child objects, like handles?

Thx 4 all the nice teasers!

trick
07-27-2003, 04:29 AM
On elast word about the "100 animated people" thing:

I started using suppatched objects, because it's a lot easier to setup animation with weightmaps and using Motion Mixer...well...to Mix the movements. Clothes for the characters are subpatched too. I tried to keep (subpatched) poly's as low as 3-5K. After the decision has been made about where some characters will appear, the naked characters will be frozen and depending on details frozen clothes will be animated with motion designer on further simplified models (blocks instead of hands,feet and head). So in the end all models are frozen and there will be no more then 5/6 characters with MDScanned clothes/optimized bodies. I tried to work with everything subpatched and realised this was never going to work: depending on the subpatch levels when working with LOD tools there are irregularities at render time when a certain level is changed; with 50 characters moving around there is no "easy" way to roto frames afterwards. Doing the characters in post (with layers) could be done, but because of moving some behind glas (reflections and the likes) this won't be "easy" either.

I've been investigating crowd animation stuf with XSI, MAYA, AI Implant, Character Studio. These are very nice if you don't need a specific movement on specific places: if you do well they get very complicated too (next to learning/translating to another application). I really would like to have and know to use them all, but that's what everybody wants. So I have to be creative with the things I have (or are very easy and fast to learn/own) for now.

Original1
07-27-2003, 06:40 AM
Larry Shultz
Editor at large
Newtek PRO


Huh I thought Lee was taking over that role :confused:

SplineGod
07-27-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Original1
Larry Shultz
Editor at large
Newtek PRO


Huh I thought Lee was taking over that role :confused:
Lee is more like Publisher at Large. :)

Verlon
07-29-2003, 02:08 AM
Newtek incorporates SAS-Lite, and people are upset that they did not include the full version of Sasquatch (eliminating the need for the plugin altogether). Even after the explanation, people are unhappy.

So, in Lightwave 8, they buy a complete plugin (as well as hiring the developers onto the staff), and now people want the old plugin to stick around to keep the end user in mind?


Is it just me that doesn't understand this?


Personally I like it. One less license...one lest upgrade to look for. All good for me, and I bought the Orthopedics plugin.

trick
07-29-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by Verlon
...Is it just me that doesn't understand this?...

The problem is the time gap between ORTHO and [8] !!!!!!

( If they bought a "lite" version of Ortho, Ortho would still be around, just like Sasquatch, wouldn't it ...)

Original1
07-29-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Verlon
Newtek incorporates SAS-Lite, and people are upset that they did not include the full version of Sasquatch (eliminating the need for the plugin altogether). Even after the explanation, people are unhappy.

So, in Lightwave 8, they buy a complete plugin (as well as hiring the developers onto the staff), and now people want the old plugin to stick around to keep the end user in mind?


Is it just me that doesn't understand this?


Personally I like it. One less license...one lest upgrade to look for. All good for me, and I bought the Orthopedics plugin.

Nobody is going to give you value like Newtek, for the price of an upgrade to LW 8.0 I got a copy of DFX+ , a wonderful complement to LW even though I have VT2. We have all done it, bought plugins for them to be superceded or included in the Next version, I did it with Hypervoxels which was a addon for LW 5.6 for them to be included in 6.0 Do I care? NO!!!

Programmers gotta eat to make my toys.

Keep Going Newtek Knock me out with the next version.

Matt
07-29-2003, 04:44 AM
as long as these plugins are INTEGRATED seamlessly into LW's workflow I'm all for it, what will kill it is a patchwork of plugins bolted onto LW's backend! :)

s_calimero
07-29-2003, 05:43 PM
please tell me i d'ont have to paint weights anymore