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videosc
06-07-2008, 05:21 PM
I was wondering if any of you who use your TC to shoot high school football games could share some tips and comments.

What cameras do you use and how many? Where do you place the cameras and the TC? If they are far away from each other, what cables do you use and how do you secure them?

Who does your game announcing? Do you use camera operators or PTZ cams? If cam ops, what intercom system do you use?

How do you update the score? Do you use the special TC slo-mo and graphics options?

What advice would you give someone looking at buying a TC for football and doing it for the first time?

As you can see I have a lot of questions so hopefully someone here has some feedback. Thanks!

D3Cast
06-08-2008, 10:58 AM
Hi videosc,


I was wondering if any of you who use your TC to shoot high school football games could share some tips and comments.Happy to -- in my case, replace "high school" with "NCAA Division II and III", but that hardly makes a difference...


What cameras do you use and how many?We shoot with Canon GL-2s, but what destination(s) are you shooting for? For example, if you're shooting for broadcast as well as webcast, you may want to look at higher-quality cameras. I love the GL-2s for webcast. We use three, because we can't use any more with the TC-100 and Pro.


Where do you place the cameras and the TC?Generally, high 50-yard line (game camera), one sideline (down near one end zone) and medium-height tight (ideally, just off the 50, closer to the opposite end zone from where the sideline camera is). TC is usually in the press box. If there's no press box, I'd think you'd pretty much have to have some sort of production vehicle. I would recommend against directing a multi-camera shoot out of the back of a 1999 Toyota RAV-4, especially if you are 6 feet tall.:thumbsup:


If they are far away from each other, what cables do you use and how do you secure them?Generally, s-video up to 200 feet; Cat 5 (converted to s-video at each end) for 200'-750'.


Who does your game announcing?We generally use our own talent, or we take the audio from an existing radio feed if it exists.


Do you use camera operators or PTZ cams? If cam ops, what intercom system do you use? Cam ops. I rented a PTZ camera as a hockey game camera once. ONCE. I said afterwards that if a city council meeting had broken out at center ice, I would have had the perfect camera for it. That said, I know that the Hometown Sports folk have done some nice work with a fancier robotic base from Grizzly Pro (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75238) that they use as a fifth or sixth camera.

For intercom, I've used a gerry-rigged homegrown system with a mixer and lots of XLR and 1/4", I've used Production Intercom system which are fairly affordable and work well, and I've rented wireless intercom, which was expensive and extremely yummy. (I've also switched multi-camera live sports without intercom at all, which was a far-less-satisfying experience for both director and viewer.)


How do you update the score? Do you use the special TC slo-mo and graphics options?Score (and even down-and-distance) is easy; it's the clock that is hard. You can make an overlay for the TC that can have score, down-and-distance, quarter, and then update it before each play. Or you can key something with a running clock in over iVGA as I did (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56404), although that limits you to cutting between cameras -- no transitions.

As far as replay goes, I'm on record as being an early adopter and big fan of youngmonkey's Replay plugin (http://www.youngmonkey.ca/hands/restaurant/plugins/InstantReplay/index.html) for the Pro and up, but the recent announcement of NewTek's TimeWarp seems very cool, as well. I've also used hard-drive-based capture and playback devices such as a nNovia A2D with moderate success. Others have discussed the possible use of DVRs for this purpose, and I know Hometown Sports and kltv have used old Panasonic Showstoppers (plural; search for some of the great posts describing the multiple-Showstopper setup).


What advice would you give someone looking at buying a TC for football and doing it for the first time?Do it! :D Seriously, the live sports production for webcast that I've stumbled into over the past three years (I did not come from a video production background) has been some of the most fun I've had in my life.

Ask more questions, too -- these forums are filled with people doing the same thing, and willing and eager to help. Welcome!

-steve

Jim_C
06-08-2008, 11:25 AM
We also have created a inexpensive solution allowing anybody with a cell phone to instantly become a sports broadcaster on the internet,<snip>


Is this a good thing?

;)
:D

"BOOM" Goes the dynamite!

videosc
06-11-2008, 04:33 PM
Steve and Travis: thank you very much for the info! This helps a lot. I'd be very interested in knowing more about the Cat 5 solutions you use. I was leaning towards just using BNC composite from some Canon XH-A1s.

PIZAZZ
06-12-2008, 09:11 AM
Steve and Travis: thank you very much for the info! This helps a lot. I'd be very interested in knowing more about the Cat 5 solutions you use. I was leaning towards just using BNC composite from some Canon XH-A1s.

Steve alerted me of your situation. I will be glad to help get you configured.

I developed the Cat5 solution that the NCAADII streaming group and Steve uses. I will be happy to answer any questions.

We have designs that transport YUV component, Composite, or SVideo video signals. We also just finished a design that carries SDI over Cat5 now. Besides the video side we also carry tally and intercom within the same Cat5 snake. We had a cable manufacturer actually assemble a cable snake with 2 of their extremely flexible and durable Cat5 cables within one jacket. Think flexibility like quality Mogami or Canare mic cables. No memory, no rigid copper like normal Cat5, and locking RJ45 connectors protected by a connector barrel like an XLR. We use Ethercon connectors by Neutrik.

Travis is going to have to be very careful about developing and offering a Cat5 solution. Patent infringement is a very dangerous area to tread.

jredmond108
06-12-2008, 09:30 AM
Jeff,

Can you give us an idea of prices for SDI and component with and without intercom
100 ft
150 ft
200 ft

Can the same cat 5 also send control information for Sony BRC-300 remote camera?

thanks, James

Tarheel Cougar
06-12-2008, 10:37 AM
I think a balun solution is very intriguing and we are considering purchasing some to check out. My limited google skills turned up an audio, video and power solution over something like these http://www.active-vision.com/Video_Balun_CCTV_Camera_Baluns_Passive_Rackmount_s/35.htm for under $20 each. Tough to beat! We currently use the Canare A2V2-type reels with 2 bnc's and 2 xlr's but they are thick, and our reels are only 330' long.

PIZAZZ
06-12-2008, 11:00 AM
I think a balun solution is very intriguing and we are considering purchasing some to check out. My limited google skills turned up an audio, video and power solution over something like these http://www.active-vision.com/Video_Balun_CCTV_Camera_Baluns_Passive_Rackmount_s/35.htm for under $20 each. Tough to beat! We currently use the Canare A2V2-type reels with 2 bnc's and 2 xlr's but they are thick, and our reels are only 330' long.

Sure you can find cheap baluns on the internet. Nothing secret about that. I will be glad to sell you some of the dozen or so I went through trying to find true broadcast quality baluns. I ended up using a company's that when put on a scope have identical output whether it is 10, 100, or 1000 feet. No difference between a 100' coax solution or a 100' Cat5 solution using these baluns. They are more expensive than the security quality baluns referenced above but they are worth it if the quality of picture matters to you.

I have and still use those same Canare cable snakes sometimes. 1/2" is not that thick when compared with multicore CCU snakes used in the days of old. The Cat5 snakes we developed are a little smaller than the Canare and just as flexible which is key for remote production work. The standard Cat5 cable you get off the shelf is a solid copper cable that will end up kinking and breaking after a show or two. If you are doing a fixed install at a venue then the normal Cat5e Belden cable is cheaper to use right up to where your camera needs to plug in and be mobile. We have a school client doing that now. They are running out to their football field in conduit regular solid copper Belden Cat5 and terminating with wall mounted EtherCon jacks. They will use 25' jumper cables of our FlexCat5 snakes to connect to the cameras.
The best of both worlds. They only have to roll up 25' cables instead of 700' for each run.

I have 3 more days of this World Series of Poker shoot we are doing now and then I will be back at the office for 4 days. My new box design is waiting on me there so I can't wait to test it on the show I am going back to shoot there. Oh and btw we are using Cat5 solutions I developed here at the World Series too. ESPN and 441 Productions were extremely pleased with our feeds we are giving them. They couldn't believe the quality at the 800' runs we had to make with the new Sony EX1 cameras outputting SDI. SDI running 800' on normal copper is a complete hit and miss so they were totally impressed with our setup over Cat5.

Jim_C
06-12-2008, 11:35 AM
I think a balun solution is very intriguing and we are considering purchasing some to check out. My limited google skills turned up an audio, video and power solution over something like these http://www.active-vision.com/Video_Balun_CCTV_Camera_Baluns_Passive_Rackmount_s/35.htm for under $20 each. Tough to beat! We currently use the Canare A2V2-type reels with 2 bnc's and 2 xlr's but they are thick, and our reels are only 330' long.


fwiw... We use various configs of these (http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=ETS%2DPV890&off=3&sort=prod&skuonly=0&search=baluns&pagesize=20) Baluns.
in case the link doesn't work, hit markertek.com and search for item #ETS-PV890.

And Belden CAT6 VideoTwist UTP cable. (http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=BL%2D7989R%2D1000&off=2&sort=prod&skuonly=0&search=belden+cat6&pagesize=20)
(Markertek item BL-7989R-1000)

Not saying this is the best/ultimate solution but it has worked great for us.

Tarheel Cougar
06-12-2008, 04:20 PM
Jef, we're looking to buy and I'd rather have something nice and tested than junk, but there's not much to lose with some of the lower cost ones. I was waiting around for your website and some long-promised photos on this forum so I can have some more information to submit a funding request, but would rather buy something complete than build if it works, isn't cost prohibitive, and can be here before football season. I don't remember if any of your boxes with DC power capability and if that's possible then it would be a bonus. Personally I'd be happy with composite video and intercom. Look for an email from me in the near future, I'd like a quote.

vanderwielen
06-15-2008, 05:05 PM
In our latest configuration of a new truck, we wired cameras 7 and 8 via Cat 5 Baluns bringing S-Video back. Additionally, we fed one channel of audio from the camera and returned headphone level IFB to the cameraman. This allowed only 1 Cat 5 as an interface. Our attitude with over 500 sporting events behind us is that cameramen "should be seen and not heard". however, we have interfaced a family service radio to the truck's IFB and cameramen 7 and 8 are given walkie talkies just in case.

About the number of cameras in football, here's our take as we increase the number of cameras..always using 3 as a minimum.

1 - High Wide and Handsome ... Game Shot
2 - High Handsome, called the hero cam which always follows the ball for instant replay and for a jump cut after the play.
3 - Field level, running the sidelines... primary for replay, jump cut after the play, coach face, crowd shots.
4 - Additional Field Level - relieves the 3 cam from running the sidelines. Same purpose as 3
5 - ISOLATION - High and handsome in crows nest next to 1 and 2.
6 - End zone lift. Excellent for replays and taking the snap facing the camera from 10 yards in.
7 - High or Mid level on the right 20.
8 - High or Mid on the left 20.

However, should the venue allow us to place 1,2 and 5 high and handsome at the 20, 50 and 20 we will always do that and switch the game shot to the keep the line of scrimmage perpendicular to the shot.

There is a point of diminishing return on football after 5 cameras, but I've always felt the more cameras the easier to direct and the better the production. We take pride in fooling folks who try to count our cameras!

Troylaflin
06-25-2008, 11:28 AM
For our High school games we used 3 Sony VX-2100's.
We used one high cam on top of the Press box and two side line cams one on each endzone both on the home side.

We used Camplex Pro X-1 units. These units multiplex Power, I-Comm, Video, and Audio. Over any bnc terminated coax up to 1000' and work just fine we have pushed lengths up to about 1,600' but camplex only recomends 1000'. These units are not cheap. My school is in Emporia KS which is the home of camplex so we were luck and recived 6 beta units for free because they are not allowed to sell the beta units. our team plays in a Divison 2 stasdium that was recently revamped and the track and new turf were installed and our cables were buried in conduit before we would have to show up 3-4 hours early and run our 1000' spools. Thank goodness we dont have to do that any more.

Now for the commentating, for the first time we had our own students doing the commentating, in years past we just recived a Direct feed from the local AM radio station Play by Play analysts.

Our Set up for our commentators was a bit confusing so I wont go into it.

For our graphics we just built our own. our score graphic had text boxes and we just faded the graphic down and then back up when it needed changed

With all of the new improvments for Tricaster such as the LiveText and LiveMotion I Would go with it it is a easy to use interface and simple.

cameraman91569
06-27-2008, 01:40 PM
We just started back up doing live high school football last year after a 5-year hiatus. I only used 2 cameras last year, however I used to use a minimum of 4, 20 - 50 - 20 and sideline, plus a dedicated CLOCK camera. What I did back in the day was I daisy-chained a couple of Videonics switchers, one was the switcher for the cameras, the downstream switcher was set-up as a PIP with the clock camera and then I used an old Titlemaker for graphics!

Fast Forward to 2007 and with my TriCaster Pro I built my own lower thirds with a helmet with the teams logo, time outs, score, and our corporate game sponsor's logo (Pepsi). The only thing I heard was, man wish you would have had a clock in there! That's the only thing that I didn't have.

Like I said, I only used 2 cameras last year as we were just getting back up and running and had a smaller revenues as in the past. I ran a high 50 and a sideline camera and used 2 DVD Recorders with hard drives for my replays. It got VERY confusing with remotes (make sure they are different brands -- TRUST ME!). I would start recording at the beginning of the play so that if a replay is warranted, I would just have to hit stop and then it was ready for playback. You have decent slow motion capabilities, but the instant access to the clip was GREAT!

I set-up in the press box and would have 2 or 3 announcers so IFB was not needed as in the past when I had my RV set-up. I used a lower cost communications set-up, a Clear-Com PK-5, which is much cheaper than my Telex System that I used for Com and IFB on my old system.

I too am looking forward to seeing more, and possibly purchasing the Timewarp system and Livetext as that should help me out a lot. I also would love to have an interface for the scoreboards too, but don't know much about them and what is involved.

Anyway, that's how I do it in Oak Ridge, TN!!!

Oh yeah, I use Sony DXC-327's, oldies but VERY goodies!!!

Jim_C
06-27-2008, 02:30 PM
Oh yeah, I use Sony DXC-327's, oldies but VERY goodies!!!

Agreed! Beautiful crisp SD picture.

kltv
06-27-2008, 06:14 PM
What I did back in the day was I daisy-chained a couple of Videonics switchers, one was the switcher for the cameras, the downstream switcher was set-up as a PIP with the clock camera and then I used an old Titlemaker for graphics!



Exactly the system our first VT[3] replaced. Oh, memories...

Kris

Rangers4me
07-22-2008, 12:13 PM
I offer an easy to use solution for graphics for score/time/down & distance/stats for football. Check it out at gurwinproductions.com/scoreboard (www.gurwinproductions.com/scoreboard). A new release with a completely redone stats interface for football will be available in the next 2-4 weeks.

Jim_C
07-22-2008, 12:48 PM
I offer an easy to use solution for graphics for score/time/down & distance/stats for football. Check it out at gurwinproductions.com/scoreboard (www.gurwinproductions.com/scoreboard). A new release with a completely redone stats interface for football will be available in the next 2-4 weeks.

Mac only?

Rangers4me
07-23-2008, 08:21 AM
Mac only at this point, I'm working on getting a developer to port it to the PC.