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hrgiger
06-02-2008, 04:23 PM
Well its with some sadness that I am, at least for the time being, leaving the Lightwave community. I am selling my Lightwave 9 license along with all of my plug-ins which are current versions of Fprime, Sasquatch, and LWCAD. You can find my posting of the sale here: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84794

Jay Roth and the team have done a remarkable job with Lightwave and I would like to congratulate them on picking up the mess that was left when Peebler and the others left to create Modo. I think that given more time, they might have addressed some of the issues that I have been frustrated with in Lightwave but after this long, I don't think I can wait any longer. I have decided to go with XSI for now. It has the character ability I would like as well as the ability to bring in my zbrush models which I've also recently started using as well as numerous other reasons. I know that some might say why not just add XSI to your arsenal of tools but I am not a professional, I do not do this for money, I do it for the love of doing it. I'm on a budget and it has to be either or right now.

Worst case, I still have another license of Lightwave 8 that I could upgrade at a later date if I decide to. I still love Lightwave and I hope to see it continue to make strides into becoming a solid application so I'll be checking in from time to time to see what's up.

Anyway, just wanted to thank the lightwave community for all your humor, inspiration, insight and help over the last several years. A big thanks to Newtek for everything they've done to make LW better, I hope you can continue to do so.

Being the top poster on these boards, I bequeath the top posting position to Lightwolf. Looks like only 167 more posts to go buddy!

Regards

HR
aka Steve White

PS: Screw you bryphi.

adamredwoods
06-02-2008, 04:54 PM
There have been soooo many members that have switched over to XSI. Just go over to the XSI forums and you'll see a lot of names you'll recognize.

I'm thinking of exploring another package, but I am interested in how XSI modeler compares to Lightwaves? SPECIFICALLY: I mainly box model in perspective mode; adjust on the vertex level with the tweak tool and constrain to an axis by holding control. I LOVE this. It's so fast to make changes and works GREAT with a tablet.

What are great, speed modeling techniques within XSI? Better yet, point me to an XSI tutorial or something so this thread doesn't turn into flames.

Lightwolf
06-02-2008, 05:00 PM
Hiya hrgiger, Steve,


Being the top poster on these boards, I bequeath the top posting position to Lightwolf. Looks like only 167 more posts to go buddy!

Haha... that was the first thing I checked after I read your first paragraph, you just :chicken: out, don't you? :D

Seriously though, it's sad to see you go, hopefully not forever. One way or another we'll meet again :beerchug:

Enjoy exploring XSI!

Cheers,
Michael Wolf

Dodgy
06-02-2008, 05:07 PM
Sad to see you go dude, take care and have fun.

pooby
06-02-2008, 05:09 PM
The XSI community is starting to look very familiar.

Goodbye and Welcome

Steamthrower
06-02-2008, 05:10 PM
Take care over in XSI land, Steve. Come back after a bit of use, and give us a LW vs. XSI review.

Perhaps we'll get Tyrot to write a funeral dirge for you?

SP00
06-02-2008, 05:10 PM
There have been soooo many members that have switched over to XSI. Just go over to the XSI forums and you'll see a lot of names you'll recognize.

I'm thinking of exploring another package, but I am interested in how XSI modeler compares to Lightwaves? SPECIFICALLY: I mainly box model in perspective mode; adjust on the vertex level with the tweak tool and constrain to an axis by holding control. I LOVE this. It's so fast to make changes and works GREAT with a tablet.

What are great, speed modeling techniques within XSI? Better yet, point me to an XSI tutorial or something so this thread doesn't turn into flames.

I downloaded the trail version. Hands down, LW is the number 2 modeling program on the market. XSI modeling tools are nice, but LW has a faster workflow. With LWCAD, LW's modeler is No.1 Of course, XSI other strengths makes up for its weakness.

geothefaust
06-02-2008, 05:13 PM
Hey HR, sad to see you go from this forum. But, as Pooby said, Goodbye, and Hello again. ;)

Intuition
06-02-2008, 05:15 PM
Well, I'll tell you laters here and hello over there. ;)

You wont regret going to XSI. It has its own hangups in certain situations but overall it is a great character animation package and great overall package.

I will say that I like LW particle systems a bit more but if you get the binary alchemy, which I have, it is essentially hypervoxels for XSI.

XSI7 is about to come out too. Rc1 is making its round. 3d delight, VrayXSI (my fave), final render, also are good render options.

I model mostly in modo now but I have used XSI for modeling and its pretty straight forward and has the operator stack so you can keep tweaking later in the modeling process. I highly recommend the i3d tutorials for learning mental ray, the guy that narrates them is hilarious and breaks each part of the workflow down easy.

Also in case you havent seen it, Vast also has tons of free tuts as well.

See you on the other side. ;)

GregMalick
06-02-2008, 05:18 PM
sad sad news - but expressed in a very classy way.
Kinda makes me want to install that XSI I bought off ebay.
I hope you drop in from time to time to give us updates.

And may we never forget bryphi the bum.

Bytehawk
06-02-2008, 05:23 PM
Cheers,

Hope to see you around, if not here, at other venues.

IMI
06-02-2008, 05:24 PM
Take care, Steve. We've had some disagreements, but overall I've considered you a decent guy, pretty cool, and rather quite funny at times.
XSI is definitely a huge app, very attractive. Since I got into it via the Mod Tool, I have to say, I've been using it more than LW. I only wish LW had more support for gaming and modding enthusiasts such as myself.

SP00
06-02-2008, 05:30 PM
Would you considering keeping LW and your plugins and adding Blender's CA tools to your pipeline? This might be a nice solution for you instead of completely learning a new package.

COBRASoft
06-02-2008, 05:57 PM
So, we lose a big icon in the LW forum :(.

I wish you all the best with XSI. I heared good and bad things about it, just like any package out there I guess.

Just know, you're always welcome here :)

hrgiger
06-02-2008, 06:07 PM
Perhaps we'll get Tyrot to write a funeral dirge for you?

What an honor that would be!

Thanks for all the kind words. I know I'll still be seeing some of you around. I've lurked a few times over on the XSI forums on CGTalk and was suprised at all the LWavers I saw.

Chris S. (Fez)
06-02-2008, 06:10 PM
Say it ain't so...

I also lurk on a lot of XSI forums, so I'm sure I'll see you around.

hrgiger
06-02-2008, 06:17 PM
Would you considering keeping LW and your plugins and adding Blender's CA tools to your pipeline? This might be a nice solution for you instead of completely learning a new package.

Well I won't go into all the things that went into my decision but I've tried blender and the trial version of XSI. Blender is really hard to get, and I don't necessarily mean understand, but rather understand why they did it that way. I like keyboard shortcuts but I don't like to rely mainly on them and it seems blender is made with that kind of person in mind.
Also, I had created a scene which LW choked on pretty severely but I was impressed by the way XSI handled it. I've asked many questions, lurked on many threads on several forums, and tried the software. XSI seems to be my bag, baby.
I'm sad about leaving Lightwave, but it's a decision I've been considering for some time. I think I'm ready.

JeffrySG
06-02-2008, 06:20 PM
Best of luck with XSI, Steve! I hope to see you around every so often here either way. And I agree, it would be nice to see a post from you in a few months letting us know your thoughts about your new work flow.

:beerchug:

JeffrySG
06-02-2008, 06:24 PM
SPECIFICALLY: I mainly box model in perspective mode; adjust on the vertex level with the tweak tool and constrain to an axis by holding control. I LOVE this. It's so fast to make changes and works GREAT with a tablet.

Honestly, I think you would simply love modeling in Silo (http://www.nevercenter.com/)! I would recommend downloading the demo and work with it for a few weeks. At $150 it's a perfect app. to add to your LW work flow.

--Jeff

Silo
http://www.nevercenter.com/

forums
http://www.silo3d.com/forum/

demo
http://nevercenter.com/download/

great free box modeling video in Silo
http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2347

Matt
06-02-2008, 06:33 PM
I too am sorry to see you go Steve, you've been here as long as I can remember! But I can understand and respect your decision.

I hope everything works out for you, and keep us posted on your travels, I'm sure you can still post here even if you're no longer using LightWave!

I'm not sure if you've written any cool LScripts, but if you have, make sure they don't disappear with you!

:D

Good luck, and don't be a stranger!

Anti-Distinctly
06-02-2008, 06:44 PM
Bums.
Don't forget about us :)

Wickster
06-02-2008, 06:49 PM
(He'll be back...posting here I mean) I'm sure yoiu won't be able to resist tormenting the people that needs tormenting. :D

Good Luck on your adventures friend.

jin choung
06-02-2008, 07:00 PM
d'oh....

wow, sorry to see you go hr. your many avatar incarnations through the years have been as entertaining as they were unpredictable.

yah xsi7 looks like it's going to fing rock with the new nodal programming dealy (dang forgot both its codename and actual name).

it's a bit pricey on the upkeep so i'll probably try to go with blender for the time being. and your evaluation is pretty on. it's different. internally consistent for the most part but very different. but capable... so i'll make a go of it.

i'm sure i'll be seeing you around the interwebs though. rock on.

jin

MooseDog
06-02-2008, 07:05 PM
the community's loss is your gain. as it should be.

continued success:thumbsup:

jin choung
06-02-2008, 07:05 PM
btw, which xsi package did you decide to go with? foundation? essentials? dang forgot the other name....

jin

hrgiger
06-02-2008, 07:22 PM
You forgot the one I'm probably getting. Advanced. Well maybe. I have a choice, I can either go with Foundation for $500 or I might take advantage of my girlfriend who is an art teacher and have her get me the educational version of advanced which has everything and is $300. I have to look into upgrade options with both. Heck, even if I can't upgrade educational, it'd probably be cheaper just to buy a new educational version when it became available.

Jim_C
06-02-2008, 07:26 PM
meh.. you don't get 6k+ posts just chatting about Lightwave.....
You'll be jonesin' for a shot of that special type of witty discourse only the Newtek forums can provide sooner than you think.... ;)


Like the unique, quick, and gargly sports car the eccentric neighbor reliably drove everyday for 6500+ miles, you will be missed in the neighborhood more than the old ladies who shook their fists at you will ever admit..



Jim

bobakabob
06-02-2008, 07:38 PM
What an honor that would be!

Thanks for all the kind words. I know I'll still be seeing some of you around. I've lurked a few times over on the XSI forums on CGTalk and was suprised at all the LWavers I saw.

Steve, a bit of a shock seeing your license up for sale. Hope you don't leave Lightwave and the community completely. Why not use both apps? Of course it's all personal preference in the end. In my own case I've recently been discovering how well LW and XSI work together as modeller / renderer + animation modules. The latter has Lightwave compatibility built in via pointoven and LWO support which make for a great workflow. Interesting how XSI acknowledges Lightwave in this way which Max never did.

I've been spending more time learning XSI's brilliant rigging tools which allow you to create advanced character armatures ready for animation in minutes. However despite my intention to buy into Foundation as a superadvanced animation plugin I don't intend to leave Lightwave and look forward to 9.5 and future developments. This isn't down to any quasi religious or fanboy tendencies (though I admit Lightwave does sometimes feel like it's part of my DNA). It may be down to a declining learning capacity but after weeks of practice - and increasing confidence in XSI now - I'm still yet to be totally convinced by XSI's modelling surfacing and rendering features. As powerful - and downright fascinating - as they are, they don't feel as fast and immediate as Lightwave. So from a freelancer / hobbyist perspective, Foundation looks like a great buy but Essentials and Advanced way too expensive to maintain (and I'm not too thrilled by the prospect of buying to a new version of Foundation all over again with each new release).

Anyway good luck with your decision - we live in interesting times :D

AbnRanger
06-02-2008, 07:53 PM
XSI7 is about to come out too. Rc1 is making its round. 3d delight, VrayXSI (my fave), final render, also are good render options.finalRender is being ported to XSI? That's news to me.
XSI is starting to look more attractive with all these new choices.

HR...sure you don't want to switch over to the dark side...with Autodesk? :devil:
You can upgrade from an education license (Max) to commercial for about $1300, when you are ready...
http://www.studica.com/products/product_detail.cfm?productid=56026

...so for such an evil company, they do seem to show a decent amount of grace in this one instance...and upkeep (subscription) is nearly the cheapest in the biz.

bobakabob
06-02-2008, 08:02 PM
HR...sure you don't want to switch over to the dark side...with Autodesk? :devil:
.

Heh... heathen!

hrgiger
06-02-2008, 08:04 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure I can support that corporation. Autodesk always reminds me of the Rainbow Corporation (Resident Evil reference).

Steamthrower
06-02-2008, 08:10 PM
Don't happen to mean the Umbrella Corporation, do you? :D

hrgiger
06-02-2008, 08:11 PM
yeah, that's what I meant. I think I mixed it up for some insurance company commercial or something.:D

bobakabob
06-02-2008, 08:21 PM
That ludicrous name "Autodesk" never fails to bring to mind Woody Allen as product tester Fielding Mellish in the opening scenes of 'Bananas'...

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/FotoDVD/bananas1.jpg

JamesCurtis
06-02-2008, 08:43 PM
You will be missed. That's now one less LWaver in Ohio now [don't think there are many to begin with]. Best of luck with XSI!!

tyrot
06-02-2008, 09:38 PM
dear hr

oh that hurts. You helped this community so much with your (countless) posts, ideas. For me you are one of the pillars of this LWaving thing. I hope you reconsider your decision or be like Pooby , come back and forth with lots of ideas..

And just personal advice, just try to get in ArchViz stuff. You will see that LW is gonna be a key player in archviz and for a small company archviz is the money source. And beating MAX houses everytime is really a pure fun. Have you ever really try make money with LW?

Ah just realized...You have 6878 posts! You cant leave. Oh no. Now i got it. Ahh steve you forgot that when you come in a forum and write over 5K (red-epic camera resolution also 5K irrelevant but important) posts..a hidden -man,you can go but you cant leave- law applies. Sorry..you aint going ..

anyways...i m not letting you go personally. You will stick with us and Lw, till version 10.

Guys...are we letting him to leave?

Best

PS. no song needed..cuz he is staying right here..

Surrealist.
06-02-2008, 09:41 PM
A dramatic exit. I guess there is a point to be made and it has been made. Hope NT is listening.

But I also have to ask. If you were working in a professional capacity and needing a solution that was not educational, would you have plugged down the thousands of dollars it is needed to get fully up and running with XSI? That is, if you were on a budget? Or should I say on a budget such as mine which LW fits right into. In other words is the money spent there, worth it?

Because I was reading down and I was thinking, OK so this guy is willing to plunk down a few grand to go with XSI as a hobby only come to read that you are going to perhaps go with the ED version.

Just curious.

And it is not a rhetorical or critical question, I really want to know.

Because I am afraid NT is listening to that side of it too. And for all of the people who are screaming about features, it looks like these things are going to start costing more if they start charging for point upgrades.

So I hope NT is listening. Because really LW fits right into that price point niche quite well when you consider what it does offer at the current pricing.

But I wonder about the cost-offset for time as well. And how that works in to a budget. I suppose on the animation side it could be dramatic.

Please let us know what you think about that as you move ahead.

Anyway,

Good luck with your adventure!

hrgiger
06-02-2008, 10:21 PM
Surrealist-

No point to be made but if it Newtek takes notice, all the better I suppose. I have stuck with Lightwave for some time now even though I suspected that it might not be the application best suited to my needs. I always got into 3D because I've always been fascinated with character animation. And while LW is suitable for certain kinds of character work, it never really suited me that well. I came from using Animation Master where even years ago it was possible to sculpt my joint deformations and animate at the same time. It spoiled me with an excellent constraint system and easily posable character rigs with minimal setup. Of course, I think I was too new at that point, too wet behind the ears as it were, to really take full advantage of that. Not to mention, I hated their modeling 'patches' (no polygons in Animation Master) But now in Lightwave I miss that kind of ease. I guess when I jumped ship to Lightwave, I just figured a higher end app would be able to do everything Animation Master could do and more but it turned out to not be so. Not saying that Lightwave is worse, just saying all programs have their strengths and weaknesses and I've always felt like character animation isn't LW's strong suit by any means. Sure you can do it, but I think it's very convoluted with too much system overhead involved. It feels to me like there are too many parts that don't work that well together. XSI seems to have the kinds of abilities I would like to see and I'm eager to run it through it's paces, at least to the best of my ability.
But I'm not here to make a statement or bash Lightwave. I think Lightwave is a wonderful program and I'm very fond of the interface, I find it very intuitive. Unfortunately we all have our little issues that we feel are important in a 3D application. I guess I kept hoping that Newtek would address those needs. Right now though I feel that Newtek seems to be putting a large focus on rendering and putting little focus on much else and that is great for some but I think I would be more at peace right now using another application. As I said though, I will be holding onto my second license of Lightwave for the foreseeable future.
As far as your question about would I be willing to spend a few grand to get up and running for XSI in a professional capacity. Sure, I think so. Especially if I was doing character work or even game work. Jay Roth even said it,(paraphrasing) if you're doing sophisticated character work, then Lightwave might not be the best solution but if you need work done on a deadline, then Lightwave is definately suited to getting things done. But I'm saying that right now. Ask me again after a few months of working with XSI and I'll better be able to say for sure. I think sometimes even though I often disagree with this statement, sometimes you do get what you pay for.

And Tyrot, I'm disappointed that there is no song coming my way. I may just stick around for a while long and torment Lightwolf by holding onto the top poster position.:devil:

AbnRanger
06-02-2008, 10:36 PM
Surrealist-

No point to be made but if it Newtek takes notice, all the better I suppose. I have stuck with Lightwave for some time now even though I suspected that it might not be the application best suited to my needs. I always got into 3D because I've always been fascinated with character animation. And while LW is suitable for certain kinds of character work, it never really suited me that well. I came from using Animation Master where even years ago it was possible to sculpt my joint deformations and animate at the same time. It spoiled me with an excellent constraint system and easily posable character rigs with minimal setup. Of course, I think I was too new at that point, too wet behind the ears as it were, to really take full advantage of that. Not to mention, I hated their modeling 'patches' (no polygons in Animation Master) But now in Lightwave I miss that kind of ease. I guess when I jumped ship to Lightwave, I just figured a higher end app would be able to do everything Animation Master could do and more but it turned out to not be so. Not saying that Lightwave is worse, just saying all programs have their strengths and weaknesses and I've always felt like character animation isn't LW's strong suit by any means. Sure you can do it, but I think it's very convoluted with too much system overhead involved. It feels to me like there are too many parts that don't work that well together. XSI seems to have the kinds of abilities I would like to see and I'm eager to run it through it's paces, at least to the best of my ability.
But I'm not here to make a statement or bash Lightwave. I think Lightwave is a wonderful program and I'm very fond of the interface, I find it very intuitive. Unfortunately we all have our little issues that we feel are important in a 3D application. I guess I kept hoping that Newtek would address those needs. Right now though I feel that Newtek seems to be putting a large focus on rendering and putting little focus on much else and that is great for some but I think I would be more at peace right now using another application. As I said though, I will be holding onto my second license of Lightwave for the foreseeable future.
As far as your question about would I be willing to spend a few grand to get up and running for XSI in a professional capacity. Sure, I think so. Especially if I was doing character work or even game work. Jay Roth even said it,(paraphrasing) if you're doing sophisticated character work, then Lightwave might not be the best solution but if you need work done on a deadline, then Lightwave is definately suited to getting things done. But I'm saying that right now. Ask me again after a few months of working with XSI and I'll better be able to say for sure. I think sometimes even though I often disagree with this statement, sometimes you do get what you pay for.

And Tyrot, I'm disappointed that there is no song coming my way. I may just stick around for a while long and torment Lightwolf by holding onto the top poster position.:devil:Better make up your mind cause Jin's coming on fast...by the time you discover where the "rotate" button is, he'll already have overtaken you for the lead :D

Surrealist.
06-03-2008, 12:15 AM
Surrealist-

No point to be made but if it Newtek takes notice, all the better I suppose.

.................................................. ....

But I'm not here to make a statement or bash Lightwave.

Oh, sorry, I did not mean that at all. I knew you were not on a bash LightWave kick or anything close to it.

I mean the point made is here is somebody who has been around a while waiting - as have I - for some things to change. And I am a super hard core LW person. I remember getting a promo package from the Animation Master folks in 95 I had them mail me and I was on the fence about that app for a while for the same reasons you stated. But I never went with Hash and I have stuck with LW all this time. And as of late have seen the same things happen, all this attention on other aspects of the program. I have been pretty patient.

So I guess my point is, you know, how patient are people willing to be? And for how long?

That is the point I more or less see being made here.

Economically I think the render engine is a great place to work some magic because many large companies still use it in conjunction with other software because it is cheap, simple and it looks good. Not to mention it is already plugged in to their workflow. So making that part of the program faster and with more features makes perfect sense.

But the fall out is you start loosing people left and right who also need these other features - now.

I would think if anything, XSI has saved LW' A.s.s. Because it seems to integrate so well as far as a plugin for animation. Without that, how many people would have just jumped ship entirely?

Another little point I hope they are looking at.

AbnRanger
06-03-2008, 03:27 AM
I know HR has been frustrated with B. Peebler and crew for leaving a mess for someone else to clean up, and regardless of blame...the whole fiasco is probably what sent many folk elsewhere...knowing that the things they had been waiting for weren't going to materialize after such a large setback. This has probably set back LW's development 2-3yrs effectively.

One such studio in Nashville...Magnetic Dreams was a long time LW house (even was interviewed by Newtek), but it seems they jumped ship to XSI and Maya just after the rift. When you look at where Modo is, it really makes you wonder...man...isn't that what they had in mind for LW?! I think it's a shame that they couldn't have split the staff up and had two development teams going...Brad and crew doing their thing to build a new LW from the ground up, and a smaller crew adding some small scale improvements to the existing/aging architecture...just enough to keep current users pacified, yet letting them know that they were also working on the next generation of LW.
This way you don't have to worry about having to gut and re-write one area at a time and hope it cooperates with the old code that you haven't gotten to yet. What headaches these guys must be dealing with...

I still think that both Newtek and Modo should patch things up and merge, with Brad, Allen, and Stewart having a high level of autonomy and executive positions within the Newtek staff, and go about the task of 1) improving the current LW architecture as much as possible with much of it's current staff while 2) Brad's team continues to build a brand new LW from what is now Modo. The user would get the benefit of choosing which tools to use...just like you now have with Nodal surfacing and the classic editor...Catmull Clark SubD's and standard subpatch.

It seems to me that it would be much easier for both teams...a much easier pill to swallow, a better business model, more focus, and a LOT less headaches and time reaching their goals. Oh, but Pride won't let that happen, now will it?

Exception
06-03-2008, 04:12 AM
Steve, friend...
Sad to see you go, happy to see you have found what you're looking for.

I hope you won't be a stranger. All the best to your endeavors!
You critical eye and dry wit will be missed.

Surrealist.
06-03-2008, 04:35 AM
I know HR has been frustrated with B. Peebler and crew for leaving a mess for someone else to clean up, and regardless of blame...the whole fiasco is probably what sent many folk elsewhere...knowing that the things they had been waiting for weren't going to materialize after such a large setback. This has probably set back LW's development 2-3yrs effectively.

When you look at where Modo is, it really makes you wonder...man...isn't that what they had in mind for LW?! I think it's a shame that they couldn't have split the staff up and had two development teams going...Brad and crew doing their thing to build a new LW from the ground up, and a smaller crew adding some small scale improvements to the existing/aging architecture...just enough to keep current users pacified, yet letting them know that they were also working on the next generation of LW.
This way you don't have to worry about having to gut and re-write one area at a time and hope it cooperates with the old code that you haven't gotten to yet. What headaches these guys must be dealing with...


I had a similar thought.

I have no idea though what the disagreement was or if they stayed would the new Lightwave turn out like Modo.

Watching what they do with Modo on the rendering and animation side will be interesting.

dballesg
06-03-2008, 04:35 AM
Hi,

Not only is sad seeing a nice guy go from the boards. It is more sad, that is you. Always liked to read your posts and suggestions for features.

Even your way to go it is with style! :)

Good luck with your new toy! :) :) :)

David

colkai
06-03-2008, 04:39 AM
I can totally understand HRs point, about being a hobbyist so it being either / or.
When you don't do 3D for a living, you only get a bit of time to spend and juggling two apps can be more time consuming than it's worth.

Sad to see you go HR, but yeah, XSI is definitely the app with major pulling power and with the Foundation coming in at such a competitive price, I can understand your choice.

Your character over here will be missed.

Lightwolf
06-03-2008, 04:54 AM
When you don't do 3D for a living, you only get a bit of time to spend and juggling two apps can be more time consuming than it's worth.
I'm not disagreeing... but as a "pro" (i.e. making a living from cg/graphics) it can be exactly the same. Unless you have the leisure of doing 3D only.

Cheers,
Mike

colkai
06-03-2008, 08:23 AM
I'm not disagreeing... but as a "pro" (i.e. making a living from cg/graphics) it can be exactly the same. Unless you have the leisure of doing 3D only.

Cheers,
Mike

Ahh, indeed. :agree:

Let's face it, I'm just jealous of those who have the time to do it for several hours a day. :D

Even if I won the lottery and quit work today, I doubt I'd have enough time, life has a habit of filling up any spare time I try to create. :p

Jim_C
06-03-2008, 09:21 AM
I may just stick around for a while long and torment Lightwolf by holding onto the top poster position.:devil:

I have a feeling this thread in itself is gonna stick around long enough for you to hold that spot for awhile.

:D

Lightwolf
06-03-2008, 09:34 AM
I have a feeling this thread in itself is gonna stick around long enough for you to hold that spot for awhile.

:agree: ...but I'm patient, my time will come! (cue evil laughter :hey: )

Cheers,
Mike

CMT
06-03-2008, 10:13 AM
Sorry to hear of your departure, Steve. I've been hearing a lot of good things about XSI myself and have been curious about it. But alas, I'm only running on a mac at the moment.... If they ever offered a mac version, I would definitely be taking a closer look at it myself.

But you should still pop in every now and then anyway to offer your opinions and such. No reason why you couldn't.

Take care man and see you around!

Chris

ben martin
06-03-2008, 11:20 AM
Well, I don't know you that well and now it seem I never will… anyway it's always sad to see someone leave.
Nevertheless I fully understand you.
I am also using Blender to CA, Uvunwarp and DSculpting… all areas where Lightwave is poor.
And more than once, I also considered moving to XSI and like I said some moths back… I decided only to wait till the 9 cycle end... after that, if Lightwave won't offer minimum CA power tools, I'll meet you there (XSi / CGTalk forums).

That said, I believe you should wait till 9.5 come out and check the new CA improvements they are promising.
After so many years of waiting, some more moths won't make any difference! :D

Cheers.

SP00
06-03-2008, 11:37 AM
Yeah, 9.5 is bringing around improved CA tools, so maybe you should wait till 9.5 is released before you make your decision.

druitre
06-03-2008, 11:55 AM
Well written last post, I hope it will catch the attention of Newtek. I agree with much of what you and others in this thread are saying.

I use LW for a living and I've done the and/and route, buying XSI essentials last year and continuing working with LW. And I do find it tough work to do two packages at the same time - I'm coming to feel confident in XSI only slowly, bit by bit, but then again, I'm sooo used to LW (first used it on the Amiga back in 3.5 days).

Seeing all the familiar faces over at softimage_net is nice and comforting, yet it means people are leaving LW in numbers now... which is a sad thing to see happening.

So... goodbye and hello, I guess it's time to move on now...

Jasper

Surrealist.
06-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Well written last post, I hope it will catch the attention of Newtek. I agree with much of what you and others in this thread are saying.

I use LW for a living and I've done the and/and route, buying XSI essentials last year and continuing working with LW. And I do find it tough work to do two packages at the same time - I'm coming to feel confident in XSI only slowly, bit by bit, but then again, I'm sooo used to LW (first used it on the Amiga back in 3.5 days).

Seeing all the familiar faces over at softimage_net is nice and comforting, yet it means people are leaving LW in numbers now... which is a sad thing to see happening.

So... goodbye and hello, I guess it's time to move on now...

Jasper

Hey, fellow Amiga 3.5er....:)

Very sad and somber words of truth I am afraid.

Am I next or is 9.5 and 10x what I have been waiting for...?

JBT27
06-03-2008, 12:43 PM
Oh, sorry, I did not mean that at all. I knew you were not on a bash LightWave kick or anything close to it.

I mean the point made is here is somebody who has been around a while waiting - as have I - for some things to change. And I am a super hard core LW person. I remember getting a promo package from the Animation Master folks in 95 I had them mail me and I was on the fence about that app for a while for the same reasons you stated. But I never went with Hash and I have stuck with LW all this time. And as of late have seen the same things happen, all this attention on other aspects of the program. I have been pretty patient.

So I guess my point is, you know, how patient are people willing to be? And for how long?

That is the point I more or less see being made here.

Economically I think the render engine is a great place to work some magic because many large companies still use it in conjunction with other software because it is cheap, simple and it looks good. Not to mention it is already plugged in to their workflow. So making that part of the program faster and with more features makes perfect sense.

But the fall out is you start loosing people left and right who also need these other features - now.

I would think if anything, XSI has saved LW' A.s.s. Because it seems to integrate so well as far as a plugin for animation. Without that, how many people would have just jumped ship entirely?

Another little point I hope they are looking at.

Fair points - it's the CA thing that's driving the userbase away.....kind of obvious.....but then it's also kind of obvious to be wondering that if CA is your thing, why would you stick with LW anyway? You wouldn't. At the very least you can buy into XSI Foundation and do serious CA for a very reasonable sum of money.

I am also a 'super hard core' LW user - I even ditched Maya in favour of it. Maya couldn't deliver on the things that I need to do - not in the way that LW does, and even having a seat of XSI Foundation, which I've only played with over the past year, I find it difficult still to emulate my buildings and landscape and environment work that I do in LW. Jay's comment about LW and deadlines for small studios and individuals is absolutely right.

One of the worst aspects of LW struggling to survive is the sheer weight of opinion on the side of what it won't do, rather than what it will. I have to keep waiting because the investment involved in switching to XSI fully, or Maya again, or whatever, and the sheer time needed to be as comfortable with that as we are with LW, doesn't bear thinking about.

At this point I really don't know what we'd switch to. Modo we have and the seat of XSI, as I say - model in Modo and Modeler, and the rest in Layout - works great for us. Buying into XSI as of now was probably a waste of money - we don't do alot of CA, not that requires XSI's or Maya's prowess anyway. I can only think that the vast majority of leavers are CA artists to whatever level.

Good luck to all of them, but I feel we have to hang on quite a bit longer. For our work, I don't see any credible reason to jump ship anyway.

Julian.

jin choung
06-03-2008, 12:56 PM
For our work, I don't see any credible reason to jump ship anyway.

???

if that's true, why are you even CONSIDERING jumping ship? even if newtek were dead, buried and gone, if the current version of lw does what you need it to do, there's no reason to switch.

is some unmentioned forcing pressuring you switch?

jin

sadkkf
06-03-2008, 01:10 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but exactly what does XSI offer in the way of character anim/modeling that LW doesn't?

This is a field I'm seriously looking into and would love to know.

SP00
06-03-2008, 01:13 PM
Well, I'll say one things, for hard surface modeling, engineering, architectural, and interior type work. LW is probably the leading app when combined with LWCAD and now 9.5 IES lighting. For CA type work, probably Maya or XSI. Pure organic modeling seems to go to Modo with it combined sculpting tools. Modo can't compete with LWCAD with Modeler in the precision hard surface area. Modo has the UV and Image based texturing, but LW has probably the best procedural base texturing although at times overly complex.

The arena that LW has the best shot to dominate at in it current incarnation is the Architectural and Engineering industry. The only thing holding them back is Vray support. They need to get their support, make LW renderer better, and/or market Kray as the Vray equivalent. Then they will have a better system than 3D Max.

mccabejc
06-03-2008, 01:15 PM
I'm certainly not a "pro" LW user, but I've been using it since the Amiga days. And honestly, I think it has been eclipsed by many applications in many ways. I've recently started using Carrara, and compared to LW it's an absolute blast. The big difference is that it's extremely fun to use. LW is, and has always been, a "build it all from scratch, work like a dog" application, and IMO it's just very painful to use. The fact that you need lots of video and written tutorials for LW is some indication how difficult it is to use.

And as far as character animation of humans, etc., I don't see any reason whatsoever to continue with the "build it from scratch" methodology, as opposed to having pre-made libraries of characters that you can use as a starting point and modify to your heart's content. It's a whole lot more fun. For me, LW has become nothing more than a modelling tool to modify characters and clothing for use in DAZ Studio or Carrara.

Now of course none of these packages are perfect. Carrara still doesn't have dynamic cloth. But it does come with libraries of shaders/surfaces, trees and vegetation, landscapes, and you can buy characters and clothing real cheap. No, it's not perfect, but compared to LW (IMO) it's lightyears ahead.

My whole point is that the LW experience is very painful, and not a lot of fun. I picked up Carrara less than a week ago for only $200 bucks (included a whole lot more software), and already I'm producing renders that would have taken many, many months to produce using LW. I'm not arguing that any one application is perfect, nor am I arguing that any one application is better than LW in all areas. Just that there are numerous concepts and experiences out there that far surpass LW.

IMO, unless and until LW can take a fresh, new approach to 3D CGI, it's going to be less and less of a player. There are too many other options on the market that far surpass what LW has to offer. Though I still have LW 9.3 on my machine, so I'll keep checking in to see if anything new transpires....

bobakabob
06-03-2008, 01:26 PM
As 3D artists we're blessed with an incredible range of very reasonably priced tools these days all with their various strengths and weaknesses. Personally I don't see the need to 'migrate'. There's a lot of good stuff maybe some take for granted in Lightwave - great modelling, rendering, plugins, economical maintenance, good tech support from Newtek and not forgetting the community. But it makes sense to choose a selection of tools for their strengths. As I want to inprove skills in animation I'm learning to love XSI for its CA. And ZBrush for texturing and illustration.

However, Like Julian I haven't yet been able to replicate my scenes and achieve lush LW style renders so quickly and easily in XSI. Modelling and animation by comparison has been fairly quick to pick up. Sure I'm still learning - I'm sure XSI is incredibly sophisticated in this regard - but there's the issue of spending precious time creating new work vs learning a new app. So a compromise integrating LW and XSI, a 'best of both worlds' approach, is maybe a good way forward.

JBT27
06-03-2008, 01:35 PM
???

if that's true, why are you even CONSIDERING jumping ship? even if newtek were dead, buried and gone, if the current version of lw does what you need it to do, there's no reason to switch.

is some unmentioned forcing pressuring you switch?

jin

Absolutely true and absolutely not, in that order! No need to switch.....for us.....buying into XSI as an additional tool was foolish - I listened to alot of posters about it, tried it, was impressed by what many better artists than me can do with it, and bought it.....daft!

What actually counted (which is how I ditched Maya) was that I had put very serious time and projects into LW, over many years - that's the pressure now - the pressure to stay and not switch.

Julian.

AbnRanger
06-03-2008, 01:40 PM
The arena that LW has the best shot to dominate at in it current incarnation is the Architectural and Engineering industry. The only thing holding them back is Vray support. They need to get their support, make LW renderer better, and/or market Kray as the Vray equivalent. Then they will have a better system than 3D Max.I don't think you know Max well enough to make that an informed statement. There are reasons it holds the lion's share in Arch Viz circles...and it isn't just VRay.
Consider it's owner for one. Top notch integration with AutoCad and Revit and Combustion. It has had top notch snapping tools and lots of Architectual goodies such as Arch. specific primatives and a library of Arch Materials. Mental Ray in Max really caters to the Arch. Viz market...as does finalRender and VRay. Max has had for years, built-in, what LWCAD offers LW as a plugin.
Not saying that LW+LWCAD+FPrime isn't an attractive alternative for the money, but saying it's better is stretching. Max handles large scenes with ease that LW would choke on...so it has quite a ways to go yet before it starts dominating anything.

Chris S. (Fez)
06-03-2008, 01:54 PM
Well, maybe Worley will break the silence soon and once again give new life to our Lightwave investment.

Cageman
06-03-2008, 01:57 PM
HR,

Sad to see you leave, but if CA is what you want to do I can understand your choice. I'm lucky enough to have a job where I use Maya and MotionBuilder alot (and from time to time I use LW as well). So, in my situation LW is a very natural app to have a personal license for.

Hope to see you around though. Just because you are switching app you shouldn't feel forced to leave this place.

colkai
06-03-2008, 02:07 PM
I was lucky enough to buy into Motionbuilder back "in the day" (4.0 ple) - but if you didn't, it makes more sense to move to / buy XSI for CA than try to pick up MB these days.

Been thinking on my earlier comments, really, having invested the time in LW, if you can use point oven to shift your files between XSI and LW, wouldn't it be an idea to keep them side by side? Use XSI for CA, as many do, but keep LW for that "comfort zone".

I think, if it were me, I may do that, then again, if you need to sell LW to generate the funds to get XSI to do CA then your hands are pretty much tied, I can grok that.

AbnRanger
06-03-2008, 02:08 PM
Well, maybe Worley will break the silence soon and once again give new life to our Lightwave investment.With....? BTW it does seem somewhat poetic that after such a lenghty wait, HR leaves for better CA tools...the very thing that Newtek is starting to introduce with 9.5.
Kind of like contemplating leaving your spouse because they have gained more and more weight over the years...just as they start busting their but and begin shedding some noticable pounds...you take off cause you're tired of waiting. Quitter...:devil:

Just joking, HR. :D

Cageman
06-03-2008, 02:10 PM
Been thinking on my earlier comments, really, having invested the time in LW, if you can use point oven to shift your files between XSI and LW, wouldn't it be an idea to keep them side by side? Use XSI for CA, as many do, but keep LW for that "comfort zone".

That makes perfect sense IF you can afford to have them both. Unfortunately for HR, he can't have both.

SP00
06-03-2008, 02:25 PM
I don't think you know Max well enough to make that an informed statement. There are reasons it holds the lion's share in Arch Viz circles...and it isn't just VRay.
Consider it's owner for one. Top notch integration with AutoCad and Revit and Combustion. It has had top notch snapping tools and lots of Architectual goodies such as Arch. specific primatives and a library of Arch Materials. Mental Ray in Max really caters to the Arch. Viz market...as does finalRender and VRay. Max has had for years, built-in, what LWCAD offers LW as a plugin.
Not saying that LW+LWCAD+FPrime isn't an attractive alternative for the money, but saying it's better is stretching. Max handles large scenes with ease that LW would choke on...so it has quite a ways to go yet before it starts dominating anything.

I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I don't think I'm that ignorant in this matter. I can accept that I can be wrong, but please show me why. I would like to see why you think Max is better vs. LW+LWCAD? No need to tackle 3rd party renderer, as I do agree with you on that. The reason why I single out Vray, is because it seems to be ahead of everyone else. I like to know why you think Max has better snapping tools or even general modeling tool vs. LW+LWCAD. How does max surfacing and texturing compare to LWs for arch viz? IES lighting is support with 9.5, is Max's implementation and general lighting better than the new lights we are getting in 9.5? There no doubt that 3D max has solid tools, but I do think the tools that LW9.5+LWCAD3 offers are just as solid if not better. I don't think we should factor in preset textures or models as both sides have a bunch of them free or purchased. I'm not looking for a debate, just your thoughts.

Chris S. (Fez)
06-03-2008, 02:34 PM
With....?

G3!

hrgiger
06-03-2008, 03:57 PM
That said, I believe you should wait till 9.5 come out and check the new CA improvements they are promising.
After so many years of waiting, some more moths won't make any difference! :D

Cheers.

Hi Ben. I am a registered user of Lightwave 9 so I do have access to the beta and beta forums. Obviously I can't say anything about it, but I'll just say that the 9.5 beta was factored into my decision. I'll sort of direct that at AbnRanger to in response to his just joking comment. I'll try to say this in the most respectful way towards Newtek but they have a way of announcing things (such as character animation improvements) but we never know how long we will actually have to wait to see them. Sometimes they are delayed and sometimes they are pushed back to a vague future time. I see what you are saying Ranger about waiting such a long time and then leaving when we finally might be getting them but then again, LW8 gave us all these new character animation tools like IKBoost and the new bone tools, etc... and I found them lacking. So trust me when I say I've been very patient, but right now, I see tools I could be using this very day with XSI, instead of waiting for tools that might not be what I want in an unforseen release from Newtek at an unforseen date.

Colkai my good friend I totally agree. It would be great to stick with the tools I know in Lightwave and use them in conjunction with XSI. And if I could do that I would. But I'm getting (hopefully) the money to buy XSI by selling my LW license. But I was thinking today, technically if my software sells for what I would like it too, I could buy XSI advanced edu. and upgrade my LW8 (2nd license) to 10 when that happens and still have plenty leftover (perhaps for a new Worley wonder tool?). But that's all just speculative at this point. I have been wanting to make a change for sometime and have been unsatisfied lately. I'm eager right now just to see where the wind takes me.

JohnMarchant
06-03-2008, 04:40 PM
Sorry to see you go mate, but i totally respect and understand your decision. Like as been said will be nice to hear from you now and again, how your getting on and the like.

Would love a good honest review of xsi pro's and con's, from the point of a former lightwave artist.

Regards, John

cresshead
06-03-2008, 07:17 PM
i'm not a character animator by ANY stretch of my imagination but if i wanted to be currently my 'hit list' would be maya, 3dsmax, xsi or [with bbb short showcase] blender.


i have been a 3ds max user since 1999 and did buy xsi 4.0 foundation when it came out a few years back..personally i couldn't 'get into' xsi's way's with max being around for me to use but i do recognise that xsi is a very capable character animation app.

for lw and specifially character animation i'm not sure what's due in the nr future but if you've found a solution already in xsi foundation it would be very tempting i'd have to agree to add that rather than wait and hope lw catches up on that front.

ohh n good luck in your move over to xsi...hope you get used to it's quirky ways...if you can get past them you'll have lots of fun i'd imagine.

jin choung
06-03-2008, 07:33 PM
I'm not the smartest guy in the world

has nothing to do with it.

do you know max? have you used it? in its current incarnation? cuz if not, how can you say ANYTHING about how lw compares to max.

jin

SP00
06-03-2008, 07:35 PM
Yes Jin, I do know max.

jin choung
06-03-2008, 07:43 PM
what version? how comfortable are you with it? how well do you know it? honestly, compared to your knowledge and familiarity with lw, how does your max knowledge and familiarity compare?

i don't really care about this particular sub-discussion but i'm chiming in because it is something that happens a lot in most software forums:

i.e. you compare a program that you know INTIMATELY to a program that you either know little of or almost certainly not as well as the other app in the comparison.

such evaluations end up being more a reflection of what you're comfortable and fast at using - not really a reflection of an apples to apples shootout between apps. the user actually gets in the way - and that makes evaluative statements need asterisks and footnotes....

jin

SP00
06-03-2008, 07:50 PM
That is true, I do know Lightwave more intimately than 3D max. So maybe we can get a dedicate 3D max and LW+LWCAD guy in there to do a better comparison. However, it would probably be better in another thread.

Good luck on your move to XSI hrgiger.

ben martin
06-03-2008, 07:56 PM
Hi Ben. I am a registered user of Lightwave 9 so I do have access to the beta and beta forums.
Yup, me too, but have no time to beta.


Obviously I can't say anything about it, but I'll just say that the 9.5 beta was factored into my decision.
Ohhhhh.... crap..... now my head is really spinning... well... let me see, I have 4 workstations to my little studio team... huh... I need to make my math and see if it's worth to get 4 new SOFTIMAGE|XSI Foundation licenses and use it with Lightwave, or maybe I'll stick with Blender and Lightwave for a while... got to rethink all my options and hopes again... but one think is for sure, I'm becoming very tired of empty promises! :mad:

jin choung
06-03-2008, 08:02 PM
hey ben,

if you have access to the 9.5 beta, you should actually register and look around. you may find it ... interesting.

besides, no point in being surprised when 9.5 gets popped from the oven when you can see what's baking now.

jin

ben martin
06-03-2008, 08:24 PM
hey ben,
besides, no point in being surprised when 9.5 gets popped from the oven when you can see what's baking now.
jin

Yea, I guess you are right... I'm going to try and eat one of those burnt cookies… :devil:

jasonwestmas
06-03-2008, 08:32 PM
I'm sure I'll see you around HR. Have fun with Mental Ray?

hrgiger
06-03-2008, 08:47 PM
Ohhhhh.... crap..... now my head is really spinning... well... let me see, I have 4 workstations to my little studio team... huh... I need to make my math and see if it's worth to get 4 new SOFTIMAGE|XSI Foundation licenses and use it with Lightwave, or maybe I'll stick with Blender and Lightwave for a while... got to rethink all my options and hopes again... but one think is for sure, I'm becoming very tired of empty promises! :mad:

Well, please don't read too much into my words Ben. This whole decision for me has been not so much about Lightwave per se but rather Lightwave and me. As I said, I love Lightwave and if had just addressed a few of my particular needs I wouldn't even be considering learning another application. But that's not the way it works, you use what application suits your needs at this time. Sometimes you use more then one for that same reason and ultimately, that would be my first choice. However, as I stated in my first post, it has to be one or the other right now due to monetary constraints. I'm not giving up Lightwave, not throwing my hands up in disgust, just realizing that it might not suit me the best right now. Believe me, I will be keeping up with what's going on with Lightwave development, seeing what's coming for version 10. It's just that I would like to focus right now on character development and animation and I've never been fond of Lightwave's workflow in that area. I still love modeler and the renderer I believe is getting better evey day. You already own Lightwave, you know what it can and can't do for you, use that to base your decisions on.

Oedo 808
06-03-2008, 09:47 PM
Wow, when I saw you were selling some licenses I thought that having spent a while in 3D you might be selling them on someone else's behalf or something like that, I didn't expect you'd be on your way out of Lightwave.

It's funny to be looking to join and see people leaving, especially given that you replied in my joining thread so you're one of the few names I recognize. A friend of mine wants me to learn Blender and another has jumped ship to Max and thinks I should consider that, but the truth for me is that I just don't have the sort of energy right now that is required to learn a package from the ground up, I may not be an expert in Lightwave, but I'm comfortable with it and though I am tempted to look towards XSI I really need to give Lightwave my all before I could abandon it, if I left prematurely the doubt as to whether I had made the right decision would weigh down any attempts to learn a new package, especially at a time when I've no appetite to do so.

At some point I may decide that I have exhausted all that Lightwave has to offer and that it's not right for me, but it's a journey I feel that I have to make before I move on. So maybe I'll see you on the other side that is XSI, hopefully because I am so wealthy I've decided "What the heck, why not have both!" :D

Anyway, good luck with it, don't forget to drop by and let those of us without XSI know what we're missing out on.

Cheers.

tyrot
06-03-2008, 10:49 PM
dear hr

you are not going anywhere.. im sorry...you may leave lightwave but lightwave wont leave you .. :)

-dearest friend inigo....."lyrics please!"...

HR..you asked for it...!

Best

AbnRanger
06-03-2008, 11:28 PM
I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I don't think I'm that ignorant in this matter. I can accept that I can be wrong, but please show me why. I would like to see why you think Max is better vs. LW+LWCAD? No need to tackle 3rd party renderer, as I do agree with you on that. The reason why I single out Vray, is because it seems to be ahead of everyone else. I like to know why you think Max has better snapping tools or even general modeling tool vs. LW+LWCAD. How does max surfacing and texturing compare to LWs for arch viz? IES lighting is support with 9.5, is Max's implementation and general lighting better than the new lights we are getting in 9.5? There no doubt that 3D max has solid tools, but I do think the tools that LW9.5+LWCAD3 offers are just as solid if not better. I don't think we should factor in preset textures or models as both sides have a bunch of them free or purchased. I'm not looking for a debate, just your thoughts.Again...you used bold statements like "Dominate" and better than Max, etc. I'm just pointing out, as a Max user myself, that your statement is a real stretch. I already gave you a few reasons why...guess I'll have to repeat myself.
As of Max 9, 3ds Max has mesh editing that's on par with XSI's giga-poly, and Modo's subD's performance. Are you saying that LW's mesh editing is also as brisk? Max and XSI can comfortably handle polygon counts that make LW choke. Instancing has been in Max for ages. Don't even know when LW will ever have them. No Distributed Bucket Rendering, to let your farm gang up on one large frame. No Integration between modeling and animation...can't animate modeling functions. No Modifier/History stack to give you a non-destructive workflow.
Max already has a mature and robust render pass/elements system built in. LW doesn't. It also doesn't have to rely on a plugin to provide Architectual-oriented tools (that LWCAD provides) and a decent snap system. It's hair and fur (used for grass often) is much better than what is currently available either built in or 3rd party, for LW. Speaking of 3rd party...that's one of the problems with LW...having to rely on 3rd party plugins to bail you out means fewer of them actually work together very well, if at all.
It's integration with AutoCad and Revit is as good as it gets...here's some videos to watch for your entertainment:
http://download.autodesk.com/global/3dsmax/featureVideos/max9_poly_speed_large.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/siggraph2007/demos/Revit%20Interop.mp4
http://download.autodesk.com/global/3dsmax/featureVideos/max9_mentalray_improvments_large.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/siggraph2007/demos/MR%20Features.mp4
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/siggraph2007/demos/Review.mp4
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/siggraph2007/demos/Performance.mp4
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/2009demos/09%20Production%20Shaders.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/siggraph2007/demos/Modeling%20-%20UVW.mp4
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/2009demos/04%20Materials%20and%20Maps.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/2009demos/06%20Lighting.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/2009demos/08%20Mental%20Ray.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/global/3dsmax/featureVideos/max9_hair_large.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/media/3dsmax/cloth_max8_380k.mov

SP00
06-04-2008, 12:41 AM
Nice work, you just went completely out of the bounds of our discussion. As a Max users, I don't know why you even hang around here. Sorry, I insulted your beloved Max program, but you are in a Lightwave forum.

AbnRanger
06-04-2008, 01:00 AM
Nice work, you just went completely out of the bounds of our discussion. As a Max users, I don't know why you even hang around here. Sorry, I insulted your beloved Max program, but you are in a Lightwave forum.I never said I use it exclusively. Many here use more than one. I simply did what you asked me to do. Point out areas where there were differences. You made the statement about Lightwave's dominance in the Arch Viz market, and I beg to differ.

Newtek knows where LW fits in the market, and priced it accordingly. It's a program that offers a lot of bang for the buck, and the development pace seems to bear that out. I think it's the user that sometimes loses perspective and expects it to compete feature for feature with companies with much larger development teams and resources. We all want this to be just as good as the other guys...yet it seems Newtek is in no hurry to try and match the other programs stride for stride. Rather they choose to pick their battles. Value is one, while Character Animation is not.
Jay has stated that there are some areas that users will find other programs better suited for. So, I'm hoping LW makes a big turn around...but in the mean time, like Steve, each user has to make their own choices as to what suits their needs

jin choung
06-04-2008, 01:25 AM
Nice work, you just went completely out of the bounds of our discussion.

???

jin

riki
06-04-2008, 01:31 AM
Hey good luck Steve.

No chance of catching me at XSI since they don't do Mac. But then I haven't been hanging out much on the Newtek boards lately. Mainly because I want to focus on creating stuff.

omeone
06-04-2008, 01:50 AM
Well done HR, a huge decision and a long time coming, I'm sure. Good luck and have fun!

colkai
06-04-2008, 03:54 AM
That makes perfect sense IF you can afford to have them both. Unfortunately for HR, he can't have both.

Thus my final line ;)

ben martin
06-04-2008, 03:58 AM
Yea, I guess you are right... I'm going to try and eat one of those burnt cookies… :devil:
Sorry to quote myself... but this is a must.
Due to the NDA I can't talk much but this I'll say:
I tasted one of those cookies and I was surprised... not burnt, in fact, very tasty! :dance:
Maybe I got lucky to pick one well done from the oven but since I hadn't much time, maybe latter I'll find out that all the other cookies are no so well baked or done, nevertheless it was tasty and promising.
Sorry if I can't be more specific.

Cheers,

archijam
06-04-2008, 04:01 AM
Ciao HR, I assume the other reason you are moving shop is that you will be soon top poster on the XSI boards ... *cracks fingers*

I am personally going for the most ludicrous posts/renders ratio to annoy Bryphi :)


It's integration with AutoCad and Revit is as good as it gets...

Isn't Revit just a 3rd party plugin for Max with a $5,995.00 price tag? ;)

HR moves to XSI for character animation and we're cross examining SP00's enthusiasm in LW for arch viz? Let's take it elsewhere people.

AbnRanger
06-04-2008, 04:16 AM
Isn't Revit just a 3rd party plugin for Max with a $5,995.00 price tag? ;)

HR moves to XSI for character animation and we're cross examining SP00's enthusiasm in LW for arch viz? Let's take it elsewhere people.Enthusiasm is one thing...I agreed that LW+LWCAD+FPrime is very attractive...but saying that it DOMINATES, that's sipping one glass of Kool Aid too much, don't you think? :D

archijam
06-04-2008, 04:20 AM
I agree 'dominate' is a strong word, usually best saved for in sci-fi takeover films and WWF smackdowns .. ;)

flakester
06-04-2008, 05:19 AM
Sorry to see you go Steve.
Your images and your posts have been inspirational - let's hope we can look forward to seeing you again.

flakester.

SP00
06-04-2008, 06:29 AM
Enthusiasm is one thing...I agreed that LW+LWCAD+FPrime is very attractive...but saying that it DOMINATES, that's sipping one glass of Kool Aid too much, don't you think? :D

Wow, you just can't let it go, Dominate, Dominate, Dominate and one more Dominate for good effect. Never knew how a word can stir you up so much :)

pixelranger
06-04-2008, 06:36 AM
How can choosing prebuilt characters from a library and modifying them be much more fun than designing and CREATING your own?!?
Maya and Houdinis whole pipeline is based on the "build it from scratch"-philosophy and that is what makes them so powerful, flexible and rewarding for the artist. Same with LW (although not to the same extent except for rewarding).
Daz Studio and Carrara are a whole other story... lightyears ahead? Not by any chance, regardless of what you want to do with it.

Oh,, yeah, and sorry to see you go, Steve. Good luck with your future endeavours! hm... who can we rely on now when it comes to lw particle dynamics and HVs.....

cresshead
06-04-2008, 07:46 AM
Nice work, you just went completely out of the bounds of our discussion. As a Max users, I don't know why you even hang around here. Sorry, I insulted your beloved Max program, but you are in a Lightwave forum.

not to split hairs but we're in the community forum and there are people here who use more than just lightwave... for instance i use max and lightwave plus zbrush so it's 'not out of bounds' in the forums really esp these days where people move data from one app to another to get their projects done.

SP00
06-04-2008, 08:30 AM
I completely understand that, but to come to a LW forum and straight out advertise the competition to make a point the LW is inferior regardless if it is true or not is bad form.

jin choung
06-04-2008, 01:09 PM
but.... you asked for it... literally.

not to mention that your assertion could have been outright false considering the discrepancy of your knowledge and comfort between lw and max, as you admit.

you wanted to know. you wanted to know from someone who uses max and lightwave a lot. you asked for it no less than twice.

it is NOT bad form to acknowledge REALITY....

what if max really IS better and your initial assertion of "dominate" was way off base? you don't understand the problem of your initial, unequivocal assertion?

i'm not getting your particular objection in this discussion... at all.... is your self esteem somehow tied into the claim of lw dominance for cad work?

jin

SP00
06-04-2008, 05:14 PM
it is NOT bad form to acknowledge REALITY....




So if you were a democrat, you would go to a republican party and trash them? I don't agree with you on that. Or at least you will be making a lot of enemies.



what if max really IS better and your initial assertion of "dominate" was way off base? you don't understand the problem of your initial, unequivocal assertion?


If you reread my statement, I was saying that Newtek has a good shot in the ArchViz business, and if they improve certain aspect of their business and tools, they can dominate, particularly with support of other renderers. This would make LW a suitable option for the majority of archviz artist. After all, Sketchup is doing really well, and it doesn't have anything close to Lightwave or Max. If Newtek were so far behind with the archviz tool set, why do we have such big companies like CityScape using LW as their preferred tool? If Max had that huge of an advantage, you would think they would dump LW and go with something that will save them more time and money.



i'm not getting your particular objection in this discussion... at all.... is your self esteem somehow tied into the claim of lw dominance for cad work?


Getting a little personal aren't you? No Jin, I'm saying that I'm in the ArchViz business, most of my work relates to ArchViz and I have use Lightwave very successfully in this area. I have used 3D max, I know of it modeling potential and I know of it snapping features. I have done extremely complex photoreal modeling with Max so I have a very good understanding of it modeling potential. Its good in some areas and weak in others. From a general perceptive, LW+LWCAD is a better combination in my book for inorganic modeling. I do not need 10 years of max experience to make that call. I've used Modo for the last 2 months, and I already see how great modeling, UV texturing, and scuplting can be. Its not the best is all areas, but still a very nice combination of features. Some tools you just don't need as much time to get a good sense of it being better or not. Also one of my closest buddy is a Max users that has used the program exclusively over the last 5 years and he confirms some of the weaknesses and strengths of Max. I could be wrong, because I know nothing is for certain in life. But until someone shows me otherwise with extensive respectable ArchViz knowledge, I don't see why I should change my views. Sure Max has great tools for other things outside of ArchViz, but that is not what I'm talking about. Heck, Sketchup has a good chance to dominate the ArchViz industry too.

jin choung
06-04-2008, 05:45 PM
So if you were a democrat, you would go to a republican party and trash them? I don't agree with you on that. Or at least you will be making a lot of enemies.

yikes, you're definitely not preaching to the choir here. you're making it about "taking sides" instead of simple fact and reality. what's more important? to me, that's not even a question.

forget the sides. it doesn't matter what side you're on. you can be a commie or a dem or a repub or a nazi or whatever... it doesn't change the fact that "that table is wood".

now - saying that for your workflow, lw is awesome and perfect is fine. but saying that lw is better than sliced bread brings you to an area where people can take issue with the statement on a factual basis... ala:


Well, I'll say one things, for hard surface modeling, engineering, architectural, and interior type work. LW is probably the leading app when combined with LWCAD and now 9.5 IES lighting.

The arena that LW has the best shot to dominate at in it current incarnation is the Architectural and Engineering industry.

again, that might be your belief but they are INDEED bold claims about lw's position in the industry and can be tackled point by point.

sorry, didn't mean to get personal... but this is the kind of thing that goes on time after time after time around here.

"to diminish lw is to diminish me"....

it's the whole, "this is a democratic party, get out repubs"... even though the repub might be right about something.

forget sides. just tackle the issues.

also, you WANTED TO KNOW why someone would disagree with your statement. you admitted you could be wrong. so what problem do you have with the points brought up? they did seem VERY RELEVANT to what you're talking about and not talking about ridiculous things like CA or etc....

you made a statement of fact. someone countered you. so counter back if you can. what about the other's claims are wrong or exaggerated? if you've got 10 years of experience with max that you can use to prove the other wrong point by point, do so. rebut.

to simply claim "wrong party" is not persuasive and finally means nothing in terms of reality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

re: why lw is used in known archvis companies...

that's one argument...

another argument is to take into the account the MARKET SHARE of 3ds max vs. lw.

in your language, "if lw is so good, why does SO MANY arch vis firms use max?"

historically, this kind of argument is funny in that lwers use it when it suits them and dismiss it when not.

better not to use it.

anyhoo, sorry, i don't mean to butt in. again, i care absolutely not at all about arch vis but i just found your objections un-understandable.

jin

hrgiger
06-04-2008, 05:52 PM
Glad to see my current hiatus from Lightwave can promote good feelings all around...

jin choung
06-04-2008, 05:58 PM
we were just playin' warden.... honest.

jin

Bytehawk
06-04-2008, 06:02 PM
you see,

you just can't go,

look what they do when you turn your back.

now make up, shake hands and all will be good
:)

AbnRanger
06-04-2008, 06:06 PM
Glad to see my current hiatus from Lightwave can promote good feelings all around...I learn a lot from conversations like these sometimes...like all the threads comparing XSI's Character Animation tools to LW's.
But you wouldn't know about any of that, would you? :D

Seriously though...I bet the sheer weight of all the criticism helped them get off their development duffs and start doing something about it. Like you said earlier...when they do it and to what extent is still a relative unknown

Sarford
06-04-2008, 06:25 PM
He Steve,

I've been in the same boat as you. I wanted to develop my CA skills and I found the process of rigging in LW far too dificult to understand. I agree completely when you say 'why wait for tool which might not be what I need when there are tools lying around right now'. So I went to XSI and I love every minute of it, I'm sure you will too.
I still have LW and I'm still using it though.

So farewell to you from here and I'll see you on the other side.

SP00
06-04-2008, 06:38 PM
While we don't necessarily agree on everything, I do respect all of you as artist. I'll just keep it at that so we don't hijack this thread any longer :) Steve, let us know about XSI, I'm definitely curious.

Jim_C
06-04-2008, 07:08 PM
deez thread iz guud.

mattclary
06-04-2008, 08:19 PM
Wow, that sucks. So long Steve, best of luck to you.

hrgiger
06-04-2008, 08:30 PM
How about a pre-review of XSI for now? Give me a few months and I'll do an honest write-up coming from the Lightwavers perspective. For now though, I'm on my 30 day demo until my LW license sells and I can purchase my license of XSI.

I'm trying to be methodical about learning a new software package, I'm trying to tackle modeling first. I can say already that I'm impressed. I'm blown away by the fact that I can lathe an object from a curve and then go back in and adjust the curve and have the lathed polygons follow along for the ride. The non-destructive workflow is pretty nice allowing me to go back to my original object properties (such as the number of segments in a primitive) even after I have modified the object. I've always seen people asking for a modifier stack in Lightwave, and now I can see why.
I have to say that the interface is somewhat intimidating at first glance. Selection is different and takes some getting used to. I'm trying to resist the urge to change all the keyboard shortcuts to the same I use in Lightwave because I feel like I'd be better served by leaving them be. Following tutorials isn't made easier by having different keyboard shortcuts then the person who is giving the tutorial after all. Pooby mentioned this before and now I can see what he means that the interface is consistent throughout the program and even though I want it to be more like Lightwave sometimes, I can't really argue with their logic so far. The only thing I might say is I wish I had navigation buttons on the interace instead of using keyboard shorts to pan, zoom, and rotate. That will definately take some getting used to.
I'm also very happy in that there is a ton of free learning material out there for XSI, I'd be lost without it. A lot of free video tutorials covering every aspect of the program is out there for the plucking.

Thanks again for all the kind words folks. Tyrot is probably right though, I may not be going away for good. But I probably will be trying to focus on learning this new beast of a program. As I said, I will still be vested in LW and will be looking forward to seeing what LW10 has in store.

jin choung
06-04-2008, 10:52 PM
oh hey hr,

while you're waiting for your sale and xsi purchase....

have you seen this? http://www.blendernation.com/2008/06/02/generi-model-and-rig-ported-to-blender/

pretty neat! he just ported a pretty well known maya rig into blender - with morph targets and all... and it works well! actually, speed wise it's really really good.

also, if you haven't you might want to go to a torrent tracker (like pirate bay or something) and do a hunt for "MANCANDY FAQ"....

download the torrent... it's a dvd about character rigging and it's really well done. i'm going through it now and it's really a good soup to nuts take on character rigging in blender.

it's available through torrent trackers but it is completely free and fine to re-distribute.

not trying to sell you on blender necessarily. as you noted, it is very different. but something to do while you wait and perhaps save you some money - which i am all about.

jin

hrgiger
06-05-2008, 12:23 AM
Man Jin, you're pushing that blender pretty hard. But no, I really did give blender a shot but it's just too eccentric for my tastes. I'm good, I've got a buyer right now and we're working out the details. I've got my 30 day demo of Essentials and that will keep my busy until I buy my official copy. Still going through tuts with not time for much else. But thanks for the heads up.

Surrealist.
06-05-2008, 12:50 AM
oh hey hr,

while you're waiting for your sale and xsi purchase....

have you seen this? http://www.blendernation.com/2008/06/02/generi-model-and-rig-ported-to-blender/

pretty neat! he just ported a pretty well known maya rig into blender - with morph targets and all... and it works well! actually, speed wise it's really really good.

also, if you haven't you might want to go to a torrent tracker (like pirate bay or something) and do a hunt for "MANCANDY FAQ"....

download the torrent... it's a dvd about character rigging and it's really well done. i'm going through it now and it's really a good soup to nuts take on character rigging in blender.

it's available through torrent trackers but it is completely free and fine to re-distribute.

not trying to sell you on blender necessarily. as you noted, it is very different. but something to do while you wait and perhaps save you some money - which i am all about.

jin

Think I'll check it out though...

Thanks :)

Silkrooster
06-05-2008, 01:16 AM
Steve,
Sorry just caught this thread. I have seen ya around this forum for a long time. I beleive most of the time we got a long just fine. So good luck in what ever you do and perhaps one day, you will get to come back.
Take care,
Silk

jasonwestmas
06-05-2008, 10:45 AM
Oh and I forgot to thank you for your help in the past. Thank You H.R.!

Larry_g1s
06-05-2008, 11:07 AM
Hey steve, quick question. With wanting to go down more of a character animation path, and Maya being kind of the industry standard in that area, what was it about XSI that made you go with it over something like Maya? Thanks.

ben martin
06-05-2008, 11:26 AM
Hey steve, quick question. With wanting to go down more of a character animation path, and Maya being kind of the industry standard in that area, what was it about XSI that made you go with it over something like Maya? Thanks.

I have this theory after hear some ex-Light wavers that turn to XSi.
1- Xsi animation system is rock solid and one of the best intuitive they've ever seen.
2- May not seems at first, but XSi is closer to Lightwave methodologies than Maya is.
3- Maya is WAY too expensive compared to XSi and worst of all; is now from that creepy, disgusting, imperial, abnormal company named Autodesk. - KILL! KILL! KILL!

dablan
06-05-2008, 11:32 AM
Best of luck! Keep us posted on your progress.

COBRASoft
06-05-2008, 11:51 AM
I have a very dark idea... Let's boycot H.R. sell of LW, then he can't buy XSI, right? :devil:

Just kidding... Although it's tempting to keep you here...

hrgiger
06-05-2008, 11:58 AM
Hey steve, quick question. With wanting to go down more of a character animation path, and Maya being kind of the industry standard in that area, what was it about XSI that made you go with it over something like Maya? Thanks.

Well for one, doesn't Autodesk control Maya now? No, just kidding(sort of).

To be honest, I hadn't even considered Maya but partly because of everything I've ever come to understand about it. It seems like a very poweful program in the right hands, but the right hands seem to be mid to larger studios who can take advantage of it's custom Mel scripting. I'm a one man band and care little for things like 'industry standards' and have no intention to make money with the software so I want a program that is relatively easy to learn and yet powerful enough to work like I would want. Ben Martin hit on a few key points as well and yes, the fact that XSI is less of a leap from Lightwave then Maya is. I don't like icon interfaces anyway. So that put a few black marks on both Max and Maya. Money of course was also a factor and XSI will be easier for me to maintain in that area.
Plus, XSI just has that X factor for me you know? It was sort of like Lightwave when I first experienced it, I was just drawn to it over everything else I saw at the time and that's how I feel about XSI now.

Hey Dan, thanks.

jin choung
06-05-2008, 01:04 PM
yeah, money would be the number ONE factor keeping me from maya as my primary tool of choice.

it's basically what i've been using at for work for pretty much my entire professional life and it would be the most sensible solution for me for my home and independent stuff... but alas, the price (including upkeep) is completely unmanageable for a non-wealthy individual.

jin

JMCarrigan
06-05-2008, 01:40 PM
Well heck! Now I've downloaded the trial version of XSI. Gotta check it out. (You're not leaving Mr Hrgiger! At least not alone. Ahhhh ha ha.)

Larry_g1s
06-05-2008, 01:44 PM
I have this theory after hear some ex-Light wavers that turn to XSi.
1- Xsi animation system is rock solid and one of the best intuitive they've ever seen.
2- May not seems at first, but XSi is closer to Lightwave methodologies than Maya is.
3- Maya is WAY too expensive compared to XSi and worst of all; is now from that creepy, disgusting, imperial, abnormal company named Autodesk. - KILL! KILL! KILL!




Well for one, doesn't Autodesk control Maya now? No, just kidding(sort of).

To be honest, I hadn't even considered Maya but partly because of everything I've ever come to understand about it. It seems like a very poweful program in the right hands, but the right hands seem to be mid to larger studios who can take advantage of it's custom Mel scripting. I'm a one man band and care little for things like 'industry standards' and have no intention to make money with the software so I want a program that is relatively easy to learn and yet powerful enough to work like I would want. Ben Martin hit on a few key points as well and yes, the fact that XSI is less of a leap from Lightwave then Maya is. I don't like icon interfaces anyway. So that put a few black marks on both Max and Maya. Money of course was also a factor and XSI will be easier for me to maintain in that area.
Plus, XSI just has that X factor for me you know? It was sort of like Lightwave when I first experienced it, I was just drawn to it over everything else I saw at the time and that's how I feel about XSI now.

Hey Dan, thanks.The only reason I mentioned "industry standard" is because, whether it's the best or not, it got their for a reason. I'm dabbling in Maya a bit, to learn some courseware based on the principals of animation. And it made really love the UI of LightWave. I too am not a fan of icon buttons. LW's looked sooooo much cleaner then Maya. I've only spent about a half an hour in the app. so this is a very premature, initially judgment on the interface of the app. But I could see why people, especially LW users, would be slightly turned off by it. Like I said, I'm using Maya PLE to follow training, but I might check out XSI at some point, but I still love LW :) . Thanks Ben and Steve.

zapper1998
06-05-2008, 01:59 PM
WOW sad to see you GO ... Mr. Hrgiger ...

Your tips and Info will be missed allot ...

Good Luck, and have fun with XSI ....

To found of LW to give it up... me that is, I will stick it out for awhile longer, I guess ... I think .. Maybe .. hmmmm ...

Michael

sammael
06-06-2008, 08:13 AM
Thanks for your help and imput over the years, you were one of the first in this community to take an interest in my early work and lend a hand. Good luck with XSI, it seems like a great app! May see you over there in the future, it's a toss up between Maya and XSI for me for many of the same reasons you have stated but mainly the work factor here in Aus. Ill keep plodding away in LW for at least 9x though.

Take care!

pumeco
06-06-2008, 10:58 AM
Hey 'giger, don't do it.

Who the hell is gonna give me verbal and take the piss outa me if you leave (apart from Steamthrower I mean)?
I'll miss the humour alright.

On a more serious note, good luck with XSI. If only it had hair in Foundation I might have gone with it myself at the time I bought LightWave. It's annoying I know, that us users have to take extremes in order to get what we want, but at the same time you'll need to remember that you could well come across more limitations in XSI than you planned for.

At the moment, there is only two things holding me onto LightWave, and that is the use of LWCAD and the hope that in version 10 we will see an FPrime equivalent as standard and working in both Layout and Modeler. I hope NewTek delivers with version 10, I'll still use Lightwave if they don't, but if they don't start to keep pace with the others I think I might be 'forced' onto another app (something I don't want to do).

Anyway, I hope XSI gives you some bang for your money and keeps your hobby productive.

meathead
06-06-2008, 11:10 AM
Dissapointing. I do not post much, but I always enjoyed your POV.

You are that guy that leaves his wife of 30 years for a girl his daughter's age.
But, eventually, you will grow tired of that trophy girlfriend (somewhere there's somebody tired of her crap), except the fact that you have kids, memories and experiences with your ex that can never be replaced and come back.

In the meantime, we're envious, your new gf is hot! Goodluck.
You will be back (hopefully).

lardbros
06-06-2008, 01:33 PM
Well, the best of luck to you HR!! I remember you during my very early days here, and all the help you've given us all in the past! I've used XSI before, back in the first and second version days, and it was pretty nice then too. I'm sure it's come along in leaps and bounds!

Good luck!!

Oh, and i sure hope Newtek are listening, i know they may kid themselves into thinking that trying to compete with XSI isn't in their interests because they are a different audience, but they surely need to take heed and realise that even hobbiests are making the jump.

Ah well, i'm sure someone is listening!

kopperdrake
06-06-2008, 05:41 PM
Good luck dude - gonna miss your balanced view of things and the scary avatar :D Take care!!

hazmat777
06-06-2008, 06:18 PM
Although I won't see you on the XSI boards, I'll be sure to read up on your progress if you post it here.
I've always enjoyed your sense of humor and practicality.

Have fun! :tongue:

hrgiger
06-11-2008, 06:45 PM
Small update about my Lightwave status....

Figures that Newtek would announce a cool contest a few days after I decide to switch to another package. I wouldn't have thought a thing about it but the person who is buying my lightwave license offered to let me hold onto my Lightwave long enough to make a contest entry. Not sure if I should mention who he is (he's on these boards) so I won't for now but it just goes to show yet another great member from the Lightwave community. How awesome is that? So it looks like I'll be entering the Lightwave contest as my last Lightwave act. Unless of course I win a new license that is...

So in other words, it's on.

Hopper
06-11-2008, 06:59 PM
Unless of course I win a new license that is...
So how's your Karma lately? :D

I will surely do my part by not entering ... cuz you know that's going to help A LOT ... Hopper = :screwy:

AbnRanger
06-11-2008, 11:56 PM
Small update about my Lightwave status....

Figures that Newtek would announce a cool contest a few days after I decide to switch to another package. I wouldn't have thought a thing about it but the person who is buying my lightwave license offered to let me hold onto my Lightwave long enough to make a contest entry. Not sure if I should mention who he is (he's on these boards) so I won't for now but it just goes to show yet another great member from the Lightwave community. How awesome is that? So it looks like I'll be entering the Lightwave contest as my last Lightwave act. Unless of course I win a new license that is...

So in other words, it's on.So, you're going to try and show off your LW prowess in effort to sell 2 seats instead of just one? That's a business man, I tell you. Kiss Newtek goodbye and slap her on the way out the door. :D

Would'nt that be a doosy for Newtek to show the prize winner of the contest at Siggraph, only to note that he left LW for good immediately after the contest. Great PR, wouldn't you say?

Stooch
06-12-2008, 01:38 AM
But, eventually, you will grow tired of that trophy girlfriend (somewhere there's somebody tired of her crap), except the fact that you have kids, memories and experiences with your ex that can never be replaced and come back.



still doesnt change the fact that the wife is blind, fat, ugly infected with various ailments and requires a colostomy bag along with expensive medications.

as far as him leaving. dont let that door hit you on the ***. he isnt the first nor the last, but i guess he got the attention he wanted.

archijam
06-12-2008, 02:28 AM
Stooch you're an interesting guy (also referring to your new poser thread).

hrgiger
06-12-2008, 02:34 AM
So, you're going to try and show off your LW prowess in effort to sell 2 seats instead of just one? That's a business man, I tell you. Kiss Newtek goodbye and slap her on the way out the door. :D

Would'nt that be a doosy for Newtek to show the prize winner of the contest at Siggraph, only to note that he left LW for good immediately after the contest. Great PR, wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't sell a new seat of LW. As I mentioned earlier, I am holding onto my older version of LW because I would like to use both LW and XSI eventually. But unless I get a free copy right now, it has to be one or the other. I've got no hate for Lightwave.

And I'll miss you too Stoochy.

Stooch
06-12-2008, 09:14 AM
no you wont man! i will see you here for sure. Nothing will ever stop you from coming back here just because you dont use LW. there are so many people that use many apps, you are just joining their ranks... whoop tee doo.

its obvious that some people like you here so there you go. how many people on here use XSI and Maya and a host of other tools yet they dont need to leave making a scene. as far as dumping LW, even if you feel like its a money issue, after putting in so much time learning lw, any reasonable person would at least keep an eye on the developments even if they dont actively use it (like me, i dont even have it installed at home any more, but im always checking in on open beta and making people cry every now and then)

also a word to the wise, the grass is always greener on the other side. You will find things to complain about XSI as well. Where the animation shines the texturing, rendering might not.

jasonwestmas
06-12-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm economically forced to use autodesk products :-/ I would prefer just to use xsi and lightwave. So, yeah, I'll see you ALL around whether you like it or not ;)

Actually it's a social force more than an economic decision. . .my bad.

JMCarrigan
06-12-2008, 02:23 PM
No, I wouldn't sell a new seat of LW. As I mentioned earlier, I am holding onto my older version of LW because I would like to use both LW and XSI eventually. But unless I get a free copy right now, it has to be one or the other. I've got no hate for Lightwave.

And I'll miss you too Stoochy.

People just don't listen, or apparently read, carefully.

JMCarrigan
06-12-2008, 02:27 PM
no you wont man! i will see you here for sure. Nothing will ever stop you from coming back here just because you dont use LW. there are so many people that use many apps, you are just joining their ranks... whoop tee doo.

its obvious that some people like you here so there you go. how many people on here use XSI and Maya and a host of other tools yet they dont need to leave making a scene. as far as dumping LW, even if you feel like its a money issue, after putting in so much time learning lw, any reasonable person would at least keep an eye on the developments even if they dont actively use it (like me, i dont even have it installed at home any more, but im always checking in on open beta and making people cry every now and then)

also a word to the wise, the grass is always greener on the other side. You will find things to complain about XSI as well. Where the animation shines the texturing, rendering might not.

He needs no defense certainly, but hrgiger simply came to say "so long" FOR NOW. Everybody else has "made a scene."

hrgiger
06-12-2008, 02:48 PM
its obvious that some people like you here so there you go. how many people on here use XSI and Maya and a host of other tools yet they dont need to leave making a scene. as far as dumping LW, even if you feel like its a money issue, after putting in so much time learning lw, any reasonable person would at least keep an eye on the developments even if they dont actively use it (like me, i dont even have it installed at home any more, but im always checking in on open beta and making people cry every now and then)

also a word to the wise, the grass is always greener on the other side. You will find things to complain about XSI as well. Where the animation shines the texturing, rendering might not.

Seriously Stooch, I'm trying to be decent here but you really should read my posts. I already mentioned that I will be keeping an eye on Lightwave development. And I don't feel it is a money issue, it IS a money issue. I can't afford to maintain 2 programs and so I won't even try to. As far as making a scene, if you call trying to show a little class and a little respect by saying farewell for now to people you have communicated with, gotten help from and information and generally shared some laughs with for the last few to several years making a scene, then yes Stooch, sorry for making such a scene. And as I mentioned, I'm not 'dumping' Lightwave, I'm just going to be focusing more on character work with XSI and my time and attention will be spent there once I get going with it.

I already understand the grass is greener concept and I have no illusions about all software having their downsides. While learning XSI, I have already come across several items that I wish were more like Lightwave, but I'm not focused on attaining some unicorn app. I'm just turning to XSI because it has the features that I would like in character animation that Lightwave lacks. Simple as that.

So hush now.

Cageman
06-12-2008, 03:45 PM
Nice turn this thread got...

HR,

Hopefully you'll win an LW-lic so you can enjoy both apps (especially now when LW is progressing). :)

AbnRanger
06-12-2008, 06:17 PM
People just don't listen, or apparently read, carefully.People just don't look closely either...at the smiley (hint: means you're joking around)

hrgiger
06-12-2008, 06:25 PM
I knew you were just being funny AbnRanger. I just had to respond to it in the event that other people didn't really pick up on it.

tonybliss
06-12-2008, 07:07 PM
Hey,
I am making hr's same move also but on a professional level. I personally do not want to juggle between two 3d apps. I love LW but I i am doing more CA now and XSI seems decent on many levels including modeling and rendering - although i stil prefer LW's render look
Would it be nice if LW included a copy of XSI Foudation with the upgrade to LW 10 ..hmmm


PS See you in the other forums HR .. enjoy ;)

jasonwestmas
06-12-2008, 07:12 PM
Hey,
Would it be nice if LW included a copy of XSI Foudation with the upgrade to LW 10 ..hmmm


PS See you in the other forums HR .. enjoy ;)


Ouch! hehe. . . seriously though, that's what a lot of folks are doing via point oven. The lw renderer is getting kind of enjoyable these days. . .best to stick with that for what I am doing.

Stooch
06-12-2008, 10:36 PM
Seriously Stooch, I'm trying to be decent here but you really should read my posts. So hush now.

maybe you should try to read mine then. you said "good bye" and yet you are still here and apparently have no real plans to leave permanently.

Am i missing something here? yes hushing should have been done before the "new thread" button was clicked.

hrgiger
06-12-2008, 11:02 PM
Stooch, stay with me here (clicks fingers in face). Follow the light....goood...

Read the very first sentence of this thread. I am for the time being leaving the Lightwave community....key words 'time being' as in a potentially temporary state with an uncertain and unspecified length of time. I never said I was leaving permanently nor did I ever say it was going to be my last post as much as you would like it to be. Now I'm sticking around just a tad bit longer to do a contest entry because why not try for a free license of Lightwave, or speedEdit for that matter? It doesn't change the fact that I am purchasing a license of XSI and plan to be involved in that for the forseeable future hence the reason for the initial post. This is why I never had kids, I hate explaing crap more then once.

Stooch
06-12-2008, 11:25 PM
hrgiger, stay with me (clicks fingers in face)...

why are you still here then?

shouldnt you have started singing the departure song AFTER the contest entries and whatnot, at a point when you are ACTUALLY making the exodus?

i bet that as long as this thread gets more posts, you will never go anywhere.

Stooch
06-12-2008, 11:36 PM
Starting the timer to see how frequently you check back on this thread, giddily awash with anticipation for another post. lol.

p.s. good bye man. i will miss you greatly. until the next post that is. ;)

parm
06-12-2008, 11:38 PM
This is why I never had kids, I hate explaing crap more then once.

LOL. One to remember

Oedo 808
06-13-2008, 03:40 AM
shouldnt you have started singing the departure song AFTER the contest entries and whatnot, at a point when you are ACTUALLY making the exodus?

Not if he didn't know that he was going to be taking part in the contest. I'm sorry hr but I'm going to have to out you here...

Against his wishes it is my unpleasant duty to confirm to you all that hrgiger is not psychic!! You heard it here first folks.

Now as a bona fide psychic myself, I will use my amazing powers to amaze you all.... ohmmm... ohmmm....ding!

Stooch's next comment will be both irrelevant and inane, yet still manage to amuse us all nonetheless.

Thanks for listening.

hrgiger
06-13-2008, 04:30 AM
I'm not sure we needed a psychic to know that.

colkai
06-13-2008, 04:34 AM
Yup, I guess not having money to run as many apps as you fee like is something of a foreign concept here. I get it though HR and am made up that your buyer is allowing you to take part in a contest which would give you best of both worlds.

I am luckier than you though, may not afford to upgrade AND buy XSI, but I can figure to choose one or the other without having to sell anything. I know how it stings to have to make such decisions, made more than a few myself in the past.

JMCarrigan
06-13-2008, 11:08 AM
l.... ohmmm... ohmmm....ding!

Stooch's next comment will be both irrelevant and inane, yet still manage to amuse us all nonetheless.

Thanks for listening.

:D Hhhee hhe hhhhheee hehe heheh heheheheh he ha

DiedonD
06-13-2008, 12:14 PM
Hey HR... I was away for a while. Your leaving? Well, we didnt had much chats, but, Its always sad to have someone go. I understand your reasons too. It just didnt had and wont have what you always asked them to do for you huh?

Well, im a bit different there. I can do alot with little. But I just cant stand people that dont keep promises. Its infantile. I came to LW just because it was blue and maya was red, imagine that. And even since the start people were giving me the hint slowly that you know it just may not cutt it. But I said "Why its just points and polys". Now I see why. Its almost as if they deliberately want people out man. Purposely promising stuff they wont do so as either by that same fact of not keeping promises, or by clients not having what they waited for, would be discouraged, disgusted, and turn their backs on this whole thing.

In other words. Im gonna hang for a while longer to see just what kinda "friend" will NT turn out to be. Cause I sure as heck dont want my real friends to be of the type that dont keep promises, much less public made promises Jeeesh!!

But youll be around for chats wont you? If all goes down the drain and as bad as it seems from here, as clockwork, youll come to my thread and have a say wont you?

Stooch
06-13-2008, 10:17 PM
But I just cant stand people that dont keep promises. Its infantile.

you and me both! one moment they promise to leave and then they decide to stay. those damn infants.

Surrealist.
06-13-2008, 10:31 PM
[QUOTE=DiedonD;710045] Now I see why. Its almost as if they deliberately want people out man. Purposely promising stuff they wont do so as either by that same fact of not keeping promises, or by clients not having what they waited for, would be discouraged, disgusted, and turn their backs on this whole thing.
/QUOTE]

The thing to remember is that LW is 900 bucks US. I think the question we should be asking, is not if we want all these features, like now, it is more like, do we want to pay for it? In every other professional level app at this level that offers these features, you pay at the minimum 3 times what we pay in LightWave.

If LW jumped in price by three fold you'd have an exodus of another clan of people who are here because they can't afford it.

One thing NT has kept their promise on is the price, Something I am thankful for.

jin choung
06-13-2008, 11:38 PM
[QUOTE=DiedonD;710045]In every other professional level app at this level that offers these features, you pay at the minimum 3 times what we pay in LightWave.

if by "professional" you mean "for pay", you are quite right. if by professional you mean, "able to produce professional results", i submit to you:

BLENDER! and as proof, Big Buck Bunny.

imo, this is why lw will be in a very precarious situation going forward. as i keep saying, it is probably (among) the lowest on the waterline and the blender tide rolls inevitably toward shore.

also imo, lw's greatest selling point was price/performance. but blender already outclasses it in many areas and development for the foss happens at an insane and almost unprecedented rate in terms of cg software. at current relative speeds of development, performance-wise, it won't be long until lw is effectively underwater.

at that point, clear eyed consumers will see that they'll be paying more (something) for less (which costs nothing).

this is why i think there has been talk of changing lw's pricing policy... and probably as a result, amping up development.

but then the flipside of this quandary is that they need to deliver something, or heck, prove that they CAN deliver something, worth paying more for....

as blender keeps comin' up in the world, not only does that argument of paying more for maybe not much more, get harder to make (for everyone, including guys higher up on the waterline) but also if the price becomes in league with bigger established software, what would be the advantage for consumers to go with lw over packages with proven technologies and massive r&d departments? for example, is it likely that lw will ever overtake maya for character animation, no matter what newtek does?

(and all of this is basically me reiterating what i say - lw is in danger now of not only being crushed from above but swallowed up from below)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

all of this seems remniscent of neal stephenson's "in the beginning was the command line" where he talks about how linux compromises and will ultimately negate the OS business.

he was a bit premature in terms of OSs but nonetheless, i think it has a better than even chance of coming true. in my mind, VISTA brought it a HECKUVA lot closer this cycle.

but stephenson's analyses are much more apt in the cg software biz... you can watch it happening now.

pull up a chair and watch the fireworks.

jin

p.s. MY SOLUTION FOR NEWTEK - stop production on legacy lw. make version 9.99 the last legacy lw and leave it as polished and bug free as possible. release "LW CLASSIC's" source code. i think there's a way of releasing source code while not making the software itself free (id software does this)... but then "LW CLASSIC" can benefit from the development of the fan/user base and maybe start benefitting from the kind of spirit that blender has going for it.

and in the meantime, newtek develops LW ZERO - legacy free. but of course, this requires a wholehearted commitment to really developing lw. they can't treadwater... they can't go halfassed... this would be a big commitment... all or nothing. but alternative may be death.... (well actually, i guess they can just go into treading water mode... cut costs, fewer customers... but maybe they can find an equilibrium to keep the whole thing afloat?)

i've wrote about all this before (with greater detail if you can believe it) but i felt compelled to repeat myself....

if newtek goes a different way, i hope they've got a better idea... cuz it really looks like the walls are closing in fast.

iojabba
06-13-2008, 11:38 PM
True, I remember when LW was over two grand. The price has actually dropped while the others stay the same or increase.

jasonwestmas
06-14-2008, 05:30 AM
I bought LW7.0 for 2,300 I believe. lol! It was the only package I could afford at the time. Other than animation master.

jasonwestmas
06-14-2008, 05:39 AM
Since then I've only paid for one upgrade (around $400) which was for LW8.5 with a free upgrade to 9.0. Pretty cheap.

Surrealist.
06-14-2008, 07:04 AM
True, I remember when LW was over two grand. The price has actually dropped while the others stay the same or increase.

When was LW over two grand? Just curious, because I must have missed that.

I paid for my first stand alone LW in 1995 and it was about a grand. As far as I know, that has not changed. That last time it was over two grand was when it was bundled with the Toaster.

Jin- yeah I totally agree on your points.

But Blender is open source and free and so I left that out of my statement comparing commercial programs - which is what I was referring to. I think you are spot on and it should and will be a major head turner to software solutions all over the spectrum.

jasonwestmas
06-14-2008, 08:40 AM
1995? Was that Lightwave 5 or 6? I don't know because I wasn't doing 3D at that time.

druitre
06-14-2008, 10:22 AM
1994/1995 was the first LW (3.0), on the Amiga.
LW 6, that must've been around 2000, and cost me around 3 grand in dollars I guess (4 and a half grand in dutch guilders if I remember correctly).

This CG business has been developing at an insane rate, when I graduated from artschool (1992) there was virtually nothing available (at least nothing affordable) that would allow me to be a one-man animation studio. Heck, in my artschool the computeranimation-department consisted of ONE Amiga. With DPaint on it!

Surrealist.
06-14-2008, 11:20 AM
Here's the complete history with screen caps. (http://www.lightwiki.com/index.php?title=LightWave_History)

94 was the first Amiga Standalone. 3.5 (I still own)

95 was the first PC stand alone 4.0 ( I use now upgraded to 9.0)

I have been using it since the Video Toaster with LW 2.0 (92) but actually bought my first Toaster in 93 and started using 3.0 LW. The Toaster was my dongle - as was true for many users then.

I can't for the life of me ever remember when LW cost over a grand. And looking back on it I see that the Toaster was actually 1,495.

I did kind of tune out from about version 5-7 so I missed a lot I am sure.

jasonwestmas
06-14-2008, 12:34 PM
Yeah there must of been a peak in the price of just the lw software between lw 6-7. Sounds like I bought into it when it was most expensive ;)

hazmat777
06-14-2008, 01:26 PM
I attached a review from DV Magazine 1997 when LW was more expensive; $3,000. :hey: Mods, If it's not o.k. to post the scan, please remove it! :)

Titus
06-14-2008, 01:35 PM
Yes, I remember my first SIGGRAPH (97) and the price of LW 6 being 3K, way out of my reach. At that time Max increased their price and was considered on most magazines as a professional decision.

Stooch
06-14-2008, 01:56 PM
I know 4.0 was out in 95 because thats the year i started using it on my PC at the tender age of 14. Not sure if my father paid 1500 ro 3000, but I do remember my mother couldnt forgive the "waste of money on a toy for the kid" for months. lol. The best tutorials i could find at the time were videos by an artist for babylon 5, he had a heavy breathing sound to him and kept on calling tubes - "CHUBES" hahaah.


1994/1995 was the first LW (3.0), on the Amiga.
LW 6, that must've been around 2000, and cost me around 3 grand in dollars I guess (4 and a half grand in dutch guilders if I remember correctly).

This CG business has been developing at an insane rate, when I graduated from artschool (1992) there was virtually nothing available (at least nothing affordable) that would allow me to be a one-man animation studio. Heck, in my artschool the computeranimation-department consisted of ONE Amiga. With DPaint on it!

Stooch
06-14-2008, 02:02 PM
I think the artist im talking about is Ron Thornton.

Maxx
06-14-2008, 02:06 PM
I remember buying an educational license of 5.5 at about $1200 or so, and that was slightly less than half the cost of the commercial version. I think the price drops started in earnest between versions 6 and 7, though I may be wrong about that.

Mike Borjon
06-14-2008, 03:09 PM
I bought LW 5.5 or 5.6 for the Mac back in '96 or '97 for about $2,700 I think. Very, very big buy on my part but LW has more than paid for itself many times over and continues to do so. As for would I be willing to pay more on regular upgrades: yes, if it means NewTek could use those funds to beef up LW and make it competitive with other apps.

At this point as much as I don't want say it, it does feel like it is falling behind some and I don't know if it can catch up under the current policy of free upgrades.

Back to thread topic, sorry to see you go hrgiger, but I understand from your perspective.

hrgiger
06-14-2008, 03:53 PM
When I bought my first LW license it was 6.5 and retail was $2495. Fortunately I saved a grand and bought if off an (actually honest) user off Ebay.

Surrealist.
06-14-2008, 11:11 PM
I know 4.0 was out in 95 because thats the year i started using it on my PC at the tender age of 14. Not sure if my father paid 1500 ro 3000.

It would have been more like a grand. Because the Toaster was 1,495. And everybody was screaming for a stand alone version. So the First Stand alone was around 995 I think. That was what I bought for the PC in 95.

Amazing info then about LW's price increase. I completely missed that.:lwicon:

But the point is, as it stands today, the price of LW as a "full featured" app., is well below the "competition". (note the careful placement of quotes)

riki
06-14-2008, 11:23 PM
This is the longest goodbye ever :)

hrgiger
06-15-2008, 06:52 AM
And I will continue to be saying goodbye until I complete my contest entry.:) And simply for the fact that it irritates Stooch. Reason alone I think.

cresshead
06-15-2008, 07:05 AM
this is becoming like the laurel and hardy sketch where they constantly say goodbye ouside their house to the neigbours whilst in their car....which eventually fails and they don;t go anywhere.....de ja vue anyone?

:thumbsup::D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSs13-jxw0Q

Intuition
06-15-2008, 01:19 PM
I was animating with a program called Crystal Topas in 1995 and although it was good at titles and basic shapes and animations is wasn't that great at modeling even though it had to this day the best text beveler I have ever seen. I did a few animated text logos for small TV companies as my first entry into 3d.

You could make good money from basic things back then. Extruded beveled text flying around with shadows and reflections or refractions blew people away. But I wanted to do space ships and so I looked around at siggraph that year.

I wanted to expand to use Softimage since it seemed to be the gold standard at the time (oh Jurassic Park) for CG so I went to the SGI offices later that week in Los Angeles which was on Olympic just east of Bundy. I was really ready to buy an SGI machine and Softimage and was expecting to pay a hefty price.

Well.... to my surprise it was way heftier then I thought. The $64,000 SGI machine and the $32,000 Softimage 3d was waaaaay more then I thought.

I was sitting there at the SGI offices thinking if I could muster up enough money for this set up. Mind you it wasn't very difficult to aquire large sums of money at the time for 3d graphics. I had been involved in commercials where the CG budget was $65,000 and that was for CG quality that is pretty much not even as good as today's openGL display with hard shadows. So I planned out to maybe get a gig and do a payment method with SGI.

Well, turns out that as I was planning this whole thing later that month I get a pc/mac mall flyer in my mail. I usually like to browse these things to see if any new hardware was out and what not.

Well I see this ad. "Lightwave coming to PC". It was for Lightwave 4. They had the Babylon 5 and Seaquest claims in the ad and I remember thinking that since I really liked doing space ships and it was for like $3000 to $4000. I immediately was relieved. I already had that kind of cash. I immediately ordered Lightwave and a new PC, which I think was the time the first "pentium" 100mhz PCs were hitting the market.

When I got Lightwave I did the walking N tutorial and made a few spheres sitting on a checker landscape renders. I had a sphere that had reflections and refractions and some extruded text casting a shadow as the sphere flew by it magnifying the text. It took a little over a week to render 150 frames. I could probably set up and render this same animation all in 5 minutes now. Amazing we have come so far.

The idea that I would get an SGI machine was now behind me. Yet Softimage is now in my arsenal after first having most of the market, then losing it to less expensive software like Lightwave, max, and eventually Maya.

Softimage has been through what Newtek will be going through for a year or two.

When they switched to the new format of XSI and it released very buggy they lost much of their market share. For whatever reasons they survived on a loyal user base and stayed with the formula and now are slowly grabbing people from all of the other apps.

When, and if, Newtek overhaul Lightwave from the ground up I imagine they will have this same experience. It will have a rough slow start but if all the features are there and are improved eventually people will start flocking to Lightwave again. I mean people still come to Lightwave because its still a great deal and does a lot for that price. I mean alot. Its not $4000 anymore but I bet they get many more users at the current price since it is reachable for many people.

I think Lightwave is a great app. I now use all the apps (xcept Blender and Houdini but could be in my future) and I think Lightwave may be in a low tide right now but the potential is there to break back into the market just like Softimage did. Don't get me wrong though LW still has a large market.

Luxology took the risk starting over and are now in a pretty good spot. The modeling and renderer in that app is amazing and even though I use XSI alot and can model pretty nicely in XSI (amazing proportional modeling tools as well as the history stack) I am at home in modo for models. Believe it or not I actually still like using Lightwave's modeler for a few things. The eps importer still gives me better results for converting company logo source art into 3d text.

Lightwave has a great workflow and I think it may be seeing older users move away at times but in the meantime it can grow and perhaps eventually come back and surprise everyone with great CA tools. I think the developers should sit down and learn XSI to see why everyone runs there to do CA and then try to come up with an even better solution. And heck, Kray is getting so darn good its like a vray for Lightwave as far as speed and photorealistic renders.

Lightwave may be down but I don't think it will ever die. I bet it will come back swinging in the next two years.

Surrealist.
06-15-2008, 01:47 PM
Great story. Except LW was never 3 or 4 grand in 1995. Not even close. Maybe you were remembering your buget for the machine and LW. I took the plunge that same year and bought a new PC with a Pentium 100 for just under 3 grand I think. Then with Lightwave at about a grand, that is about the right figure. :)

JMCarrigan
06-15-2008, 01:52 PM
And I will continue to be saying goodbye until I complete my contest entry.:) And simply for the fact that it irritates Stooch. Reason alone I think.
:agree:

I hope this anim works with sound!

Intuition
06-15-2008, 02:19 PM
Great story. Except LW was never 3 or 4 grand in 1995. Not even close. Maybe you were remembering your buget for the machine and LW. I took the plunge that same year and bought a new PC with a Pentium 100 for just under 3 grand I think. Then with Lightwave at about a grand, that is about the right figure. :)

Yeah thats right, all together it was around 3-4k. Sorry, my mistake, I do remember though that around LW 6 that he price got up there, but yes, the 4.0 version was like $1000-ish right?

Chris S. (Fez)
06-15-2008, 03:29 PM
I was in college in 96' and I had a classmate flunk out after the first semester, which is relatively tough to do as most institutions expect and allow for a certain amount of freedom shock.

Turns out the dude spent the entire semester in his dorm room learning Lightwave. He made a decent living up until 4-5 years ago when flying logos lost all novelty. Last I heard, he is working in Best Buy. Nothing wrong with that, but I imagine it is a humbling transition to go from being your own boss to being outfitted with one of those blue Best Buy vests...

In any case, I got my own academic license of Lightwave the next semester, on sale for $749 if I am remembering right.

Oedo 808
06-15-2008, 04:00 PM
Lightwave may be down but I don't think it will ever die. I bet it will come back swinging in the next two years.

I bloody hope so, else I've just joined a party only to find out that the fit birds have already gone home. :cry:

Maxx
06-15-2008, 08:47 PM
I bloody hope so, else I've just joined a party only to find out that the fit birds have already gone home. :cry:

Personally, I think - right now - you'll find the "fit birds" have retired to the restroom for a bit to powder their noses. I think they'll be back, and if you take the time to get around appearances, you'll find some very personable company scattered about within the remaining guests. But it might be a bit straining at time. Don't go looking for perfect teeth at this particular party, but once you take out the retainer and take off the Coke-bottle glasses, she'll haunt your dreams... :D

If I'd been able to come up with a car analogy, I'd've used it.... Sorry, ya'll.

pumeco
06-16-2008, 11:17 AM
@Oedo
I don't think it'll die either (as long as they don't pump-up the price). I think NewTek are just playing it cool and keeping a low profile until LWX is ready!

@hrgiger and Stooch
Woah ... get a room you two :D

Pixelthekid
06-16-2008, 02:26 PM
Glad to see another guy that is willing to contribute to the community come join XSI.

Personally, it's tools don't just outshine in the CA part of the game but in almost every aspect for me. With that said, LW has fit in really nicely in the fact that it opens up a very cheap render farm option. Once you truly learn XSI, it's a happy 3D world and a lot of old problems cease to exist. Having point oven built in makes it a great option for LW users. Now that we're seeing integration with renderers like 3Delight, it's even better. That's my take anyway. It's a shame that discussing the perks of 3D packages is almost as bad as talking about religion and politics.

AbnRanger
06-16-2008, 02:38 PM
It's a shame that discussing the perks of 3D packages is almost as bad as talking about religion and politics.It's not a shame if you don't use XSI...everyone knows you have to be a communist infidel to be a XSI user, or dumb as G. Bush and a religious fanatic to use Autodesk
<< Ducks and Runs>>

Just joking ya'll :D

Andyjaggy
06-16-2008, 03:08 PM
Well I've slowly been distancing myself from Lightwave as well as of late. At least with modeling, after using modo I just can't go back to modeling in Lightwave, it's too painful.

Andyjaggy
06-16-2008, 03:10 PM
Lightwave may be down but I don't think it will ever die. I bet it will come back swinging in the next two years.

I hope so, so much I love about it, so much potential, but for the moment, meh.

Stooch
06-16-2008, 10:29 PM
And I will continue to be saying goodbye until I complete my contest entry.:) And simply for the fact that it irritates Stooch. Reason alone I think.

lol you overestimate how much i care.

Stooch
06-16-2008, 10:33 PM
while we are on the topic of modeling, after doing some in maya 2008 release 2 im in love. I dont miss any application, the history stack makes me forget modo and the fact that i have all types of modeling workflows available is just too nice.

Steamthrower
06-16-2008, 10:44 PM
while we are on the topic of modeling, after doing some in maya 2008 release 2 im in love. I dont miss any application, the history stack makes me forget modo and the fact that i have all types of modeling workflows available is just too nice.

That's nice to know. Unfortunately I can't justifiably spend that kind of money on Maya (or Max for that matter). I probably fit into a large category of freelancers who don't just do 3D...who do a lot of print work, digital painting, commercials, web design, photography, etc...and thus I'm going to spend my $7000 on a new Nikon rather than Maya.

This is why Lightwave is there...that's why Modo is there and Silo is there. Sub-$1000 programs that will definitely do what I need it to do. I'm never expecting LW to do all that Maya does, or all that Max does, or all that XSI does. I do believe it's an incredible program, but a program's a program. For instance, Photoshop is great, but every once in a while you might need to whip out Corel Painter.

Stooch
06-16-2008, 10:47 PM
i probably wont buy maya for personal use, ill let the people that pay my salary worry about that :) i have modo for home tinkering and hopefully LW once they get their #### together. oh yeah i own messiah too, but its gathering dust at the moment. i am really thinking about XSI though, its pretty tempting.

Andyjaggy
06-17-2008, 09:13 AM
What new sorts of tools have been added to the Maya toolset?

Andyjaggy
06-17-2008, 09:17 AM
That's nice to know. Unfortunately I can't justifiably spend that kind of money on Maya (or Max for that matter). I probably fit into a large category of freelancers who don't just do 3D...who do a lot of print work, digital painting, commercials, web design, photography, etc...and thus I'm going to spend my $7000 on a new Nikon rather than Maya.


Theres your problem right there, you shoot Nikon.

Steamthrower
06-17-2008, 09:22 AM
Theres your problem right there, you shoot Nikon.

Well, I can't afford Hasselblads. :D

What do you shoot with?

Andyjaggy
06-17-2008, 09:35 AM
I'm a Canon guy. A hasselblad with a digital back would be nice though. :)

Andyjaggy
06-17-2008, 10:21 AM
Sounds cool, but yeah no way I can afford it for personal use.

At this point though, when it comes to a modeler I am not so much concerned with tools as I am with speed. For example I have all the tools I need in modeler, at least via plugins, but my freak the speed. Just try editing a decently large mesh and watch as modeler chokes and becomes pretty much useless.

Workflow is another issue where modeler sucks pretty badly.

sadkkf
06-17-2008, 10:37 AM
Theres your problem right there, you shoot Nikon.

I love my Nikons. Used 'em for years. Course, I've used Canons for years, too, but still favor my Nikons. :)

Steamthrower
06-17-2008, 11:12 AM
I seriously considered getting a Canon, but it just didn't fit right in my hands, and I liked the construction of the Nikons better. They're a little more ergonomical and intuitive for me. Plus Nikkors absolutely rock, man.

I think I'm off topic.

sadkkf
06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
Ditto, Steamthrower. I also prefer the menus on the Nikons. Easier and better organized.

Andyjaggy
06-17-2008, 11:22 AM
That's always what I've heard from Nikon users, they don't like the feel of the Canon's. It's strange I've had the opposite experience, I pick up a Nikon and it just feels akward to me. To each their own.

Image quality wise I would say they are on pretty equal ground these days. Canon might have better telephoto lenses, and Nikon might have better wide angles, but that's speculation.

Steamthrower
06-17-2008, 11:46 AM
This question would qualify as weird in any other context: do you have small and/or thick hands? My hands are long and bony...and the two other photographers I know who use Canons have small, somewhat thick hands. Might be relative, might be just a coincidence.

Andyjaggy
06-17-2008, 12:03 PM
Nope normal but big hands.

jin choung
06-17-2008, 01:02 PM
pffffft, it's leica or nothing....

j/k ... jeez, who could afford them... : )

jin

cresshead
06-17-2008, 01:51 PM
one of the modeling tools i love and would REALLY like in lightwave or max is the "insert edgeloop"...click n place....wonderfull and much faster than max's >>

max>select an edge, ring, open connect...move 'slide'...click apply....

lightwave: select 2 polys...run bandsaw pro...move the sliders...apply

maya> insert edgeloop...click to place...done!

sadkkf
06-17-2008, 02:20 PM
I don't see big enough differences in Canon or Nikon for a newbie. I bought Nikon because I have Nikon equipment. Quality on both is so similar it doesn't really matter.

Not sure about the lens comparison. I haven't heard much on either side. I'm actually looking for a good zoom and macro and know the new Nikkor zooms are supposed to be amazing.

I'm actually surprised Minolta dissolved (SLRs, that is). They were pretty big for a while.

jin choung
06-17-2008, 05:46 PM
blender has a nice implementation too....

jin

Intuition
06-17-2008, 10:38 PM
Maya's Insert Edge Loop Tool is the number one point of envy in the polygon modeling toolset. It's so much better than anything else. It doesn't get simpler or faster!

The Split Polygon Tool is also one of the best poly splitters out there and it works across multiple faces on curved surfaces, resulting in nice straight multi-poly cuts in two clicks.

*envy*

I haven't got into Maya 2008, still jammin regular Maya 8.5. Would love to try the new poly tools. Can't imagine them being better then modo, the meshloop works really well and edgeslice but... I haven't tried the new maya stuff yet so I can't say.

Maya does have the modeling stack akin to XSI which is very useful. Guess I better upgrade on my next project to see how these new tools add up.

Nicolas Jordan
06-17-2008, 10:53 PM
The Split Polygon Tool is also one of the best poly splitters out there and it works across multiple faces on curved surfaces, resulting in nice straight multi-poly cuts in two clicks.

*envy*

:agree: Maya does have a very nice split poly tool. Was one of my favorite tools when I used to use Maya.

GraphXs
06-17-2008, 11:08 PM
Not sure how the Maya one works but TrueArts SwiftEdgeLoop is a great tool for making quick edge loops and sliding them around. :thumbsup:

hrgiger
06-17-2008, 11:17 PM
XSI is a simple operation with it's split edges tool. The different mouse buttons do different things, like you can split one edge by left clicking or split all parallel edges with a middle click.

AbnRanger
06-18-2008, 03:35 AM
one of the modeling tools i love and would REALLY like in lightwave or max is the "insert edgeloop"...click n place....wonderfull and much faster than max's >>

max>select an edge, ring, open connect...move 'slide'...click apply....

lightwave: select 2 polys...run bandsaw pro...move the sliders...apply

maya> insert edgeloop...click to place...done!If you model in Max much at all, Polyboost (about $120) is a must, and with it you can do a lot more than just insert an edgeloop on a single click. Not only can you interactively slide it in the same click, but with "Set Flow" checked, it will automatically average the angle between the adjacent loops...setting the flow for you, so you don't even have to do any scaling. If you want to scale it, you can simply use the spinner to dial it in or out. It's called Swift Loop

Sensei's Poly tools do the same thing for LW

Stooch
06-18-2008, 09:59 AM
there is alot more to it. the select loop workflow is much better now its no longer the stupid activate tool and click on edge ordeal. you just select an edge and do a quick gesture and it extends the selection, same goes for rings, the slide tool also acts as a push tool if you hold down the ctrl modifier. the split poly tool of course has no equal but again its how these tools are all organized into context menus. select and edge, hold shift and right click and boom all edge tools pop up. select a face, shift and right click bang all face tools pop up. etc.

Sensei
06-18-2008, 12:14 PM
XSI is a simple operation with it's split edges tool. The different mouse buttons do different things, like you can split one edge by left clicking or split all parallel edges with a middle click.

Then it's very similar to SwiftEdgeLoop - left click on edge you pick up in perspective viewport slides whole edge loop up/down until you release mouse button, or right click on edge - split edge loop. Unfortunately LWSDK does not inform about middle mouse button 3rd party plugins otherwise I would use it too for some operation..

http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/SwiftEdgeLoop

Videos
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/SwiftEdgeLoop/Graphics/Movies/SwiftEdgeLoop_3.mov
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/SwiftEdgeLoop/Graphics/Movies/SwiftEdgeLoop_2.mov

druitre
06-19-2008, 05:12 AM
the split poly tool of course has no equal but again its how these tools are all organized into context menus. select and edge, hold shift and right click and boom all edge tools pop up. select a face, shift and right click bang all face tools pop up. etc.

Same in XSI, and I love that! (hold alt/rightclick will give all the relevant modeling options depending on what's selected)


Unfortunately LWSDK does not inform about middle mouse button 3rd party plugins otherwise I would use it too for some operation..

Well... actually the only beef I have with XSI is that it uses the MMB. I'm a devoted wacom-user (had to, after RSI) and there's no way that I know of to get a good MMB workflow with a pen. Have it mapped to the pen's upper button now, but it forces my hand into a cramped position. I would actually prefer it if XSI ditched the MMB altogether, or allowed the user to assign a hotkey instead.

Lightwolf
06-19-2008, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE=druitre;712062]I'm a devoted wacom-user (had to, after RSI) and there's no way that I know of to get a good MMB workflow with a pen.[/
QUOTE]
Weird, I find it much more comfortable with a pen. left->tip, middle->lower rocker, right->upper rocker, and I use my thumb to press them.

Cheers,
Mike

Chris S. (Fez)
06-19-2008, 05:47 AM
"
Weird, I find it much more comfortable with a pen. left->tip, middle->lower rocker, right->upper rocker, and I use my thumb to press them.
"
:agree: I use Wacom tablets exclusively and I set my pens up the same way.

It is a pretty convenient setup for Word as well. Click the middle-button and drag up or down to scroll your document.

AbnRanger
06-19-2008, 08:44 AM
[QUOTE=druitre;712062]I'm a devoted wacom-user (had to, after RSI) and there's no way that I know of to get a good MMB workflow with a pen.[/
QUOTE]
Weird, I find it much more comfortable with a pen. left->tip, middle->lower rocker, right->upper rocker, and I use my thumb to press them.

Cheers,
MikeI actually have mine set up a bit different. RMB=lower rocker(since it is used more than the MMB I keep it up front...and my forefinger rests gingerly on the rubber grip only a smidge ahead of the button...very comfortable and natural since the index finger and thumb hold the stylus in place), MMB=upper rocker.

colkai
06-19-2008, 09:58 AM
I have a little Wacom Graphire plugged in here and you know, I've never quite got comfy with it. I just gravitate to the mouse because I *think* it gives me more precise control when modelling. Could be just that though, a perception, but many years of using a mouse leaves it's 'wiring' in your brain. ;)

druitre
06-19-2008, 12:12 PM
Hmm... my setup is like abnranger's but I've always found it awkward to press the upper rocker with my forefinger. I think it would suit me better to have two rockers next to each other, one for the forefinger and one for the thumb, or use forefinger on both. Anatomies of the hand differ from person to person I guess, I wouldn't be comfortable at all using my thumb.