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Mr Rid
05-28-2008, 08:12 PM
Am using the PLE version to evaluate timelapse capability, but it is entirely disappointing in that regard. Am wondering if the legit license works any better if anyone has used it.

The 'sun' light will not keyframe in layout. Sometimes it moves with autokey on, but then it sticks to that value for all frames, or wont move again or moves in other unpredictable ways. LW seems to be fighting Ozone's control, although the manual says it is preferable to keyframe it in Layout. I can keyframe the sun pitch only within Ozone. Was hoping to ease in and out a timelapse animation like I can do with Skytracer, but the most relevant timelapse values under the cloud animation tab like Direction, Velocity and Rate of Change are not keyframable(?!). The other cloud values are also not keyframing as the manual says they are suppose to. The 'Disconnect Light/Cam' disable/enable does not seem to do anything.

IMI
05-28-2008, 09:03 PM
Nothing e-on makes works as it's supposed to. They use regular consumers as free slave labor "beta" testers and hope for the best. Your issues might get ironed out, might get ignored entirely, if you're in the minority.
I haven't tried it, but I've read alot of people saying the x-stream vue is sort of what you describe - billed as a plugin, but essentially using the LW interface in lieu of Vue, though slower, but with very little input allowed from LW.

Assuming latest compatible coupling between the two?
This caught my eye because I've been considering Ozone, but don't trust e-on (long story), and have not been able to find enough to convince me it's worth the leap of faith.

Mr Rid
05-28-2008, 09:49 PM
Hmm. I encountered other little problems. Sometimes it wouldnt render anything, or the interface wouldnt update. Scenes wont save with Ozone settings intact although the PLE is suppose to allow it.

JohnMarchant
05-29-2008, 04:05 AM
Ive used the PLE version of ozone 3 and i cant get it to even load the plugin anymore in lw 9.5 beta, so im not at all surprised by your problem mr rid. To be honest i agree with IMI statement, i have problems with ozone and also had it with vue as well. I was running the latest version but gave up on any integration with lightwave.

Mostly used now as stand alone.

Regards, John

Phil
05-29-2008, 04:33 AM
There are various issues with Ozone, mainly due to the lack of it being a really true plugin for LW. It's more like a bridge (similar to XStream) to the external modules. Ozone won't integrate with volumetrics (version 4 will apparently fix this) and the scale is also not handled correctly.

The PLE version is, I believe, several versions behind current. Each update seems to have brought welcome fixes. Ozone 3.1 is the current version available to licensed users. It fixes a number of things, including a rather unpleasant bug if you have launched LWSN nodes over a terminal connection (e.g. ssh) - the nodes can't display the splash screen so that they all wedge.

Mind you, Ozone 3.1 is often buggy because it sometimes fails to find the atmosphere file during rendering. You'll also nicely screw it up if you archive the whole LW folder, including Ozone's folder, and drop it on another machine. Ozone will then fail to work. File sync tools will also break Ozone in this way - you have to install Ozone on each node and then apply each update on each node.

They never really considered renderfarms when they put this software together (the per-node license fee is rather heavy for my tastes as well).

prometheus
05-30-2008, 09:20 AM
Oohh my, wouldnīt we wish for a better solution creating atmospheres in Lightwave that also intergrates well with everything else.
There was a little plugin that has been around in beta for a couple of years I think that could have a future..you might know it by the name ogo taiki.

Ohh yeah..it was dog slow compared to ozone perhaps and not as nice and easy to set up the atmoshphere, but the actual cloud density procedurals is
way surpassing ozones I believe, ozone still only have mostly standard procedural noises that goes back to the old vue versions and donīt seem
to be designed for cloud layers really, apart from the noise layers it has on the other hand the normal cloud scaling and details of course.

but ogo taiki really could be shining if it had a better way to set up air, like
ozones spectral atmosphere, the amount of control for cloud layers seemed limitless in regards of shading lighting control.
The cloud layers could use any procedural like denis p shaders weather,flownoise,gardner clouds, it could also use IFW textures like planet clouds etc.
and it could use clusters of points and even particle emitters to create animated billowing cumulus clouds or even to use it for smoke effects.

To bad now that nothing seems to happen with that plugin and that it
is dog slow and a little hard to set up the air properties, other than that
Ogo taiki should have been the way to go.

I have to try the Ple version some more thou, I lost interest in it a bit since it donīt seem to intergrate well in lightwave.
Has anyone gotten any good fast renders trying to use Ozones radiosity model in lightwave?

It seems to me that those global illumination controls has no effect what so ever to light up lightwave objects, I have mailed e-on about how to acheive it
but they really didnīt seem sure if that should work and more of pointed me
to the fact that lightwaves own radiosity model must be applied? so if thatīs
the case theres really no need or advantage for ozones radiosity model if itīs not able to affect lightwave objects.

Michael

Mr Rid
06-01-2008, 01:22 AM
...
Has anyone gotten any good fast renders trying to use Ozones radiosity model in lightwave?

It seems to me that those global illumination controls has no effect what so ever to light up lightwave objects, I have mailed e-on about how to acheive it
but they really didnīt seem sure if that should work and more of pointed me
to the fact that lightwaves own radiosity model must be applied? so if thatīs
the case theres really no need or advantage for ozones radiosity model if itīs not able to affect lightwave objects.

Michael

I did a few radiosity renders with Ozone atmospheres that looked like they illuminated and reflected in LW objects just fine.

prometheus
06-01-2008, 05:42 AM
Thanks Mr Rid, I have to check that up again.

Michael

prometheus
06-01-2008, 06:25 AM
Well some experiments again and I just canīt get it to work
as it should like in vue infinite, the global illumination,radiosity controls have
no effect on objects what so ever.

what I would like to come to a conclusion is if the global illumination model in ozone could be used to light up for example arcitechtural buildings and all other models instead of Lightwaves own radiosity model.
Now hereīs the answer I got from e-on

"Hi Michael,The Ozone atmosphere are a bit independent from the LightWave settings, so even if you choose an atmosphere using radiosity, it won't automatically set Lightwave to do radiosity.So what you have to do, is to select a radiosity or GI atmosphere and set Lightwave to do radiosity/GI, and this should work. Ozone is just affecting the atmosphere of the scene, it didn't render the Lightwave objects, even if they seems to be affected by Ozone.Hope this helps,Matt "


I can get radiosity acheived as Matt pointed out by setting Ligtwave to radiosity,(monte carlo model) but thats a different story, it seems to only be using lightwaves own
settings and controlling the global and radiosity parameters in ozone donīt do nothing only affecting atmosphere.

Now this is perhaps the only way and how it should work, but in that case
Ivé might have been mislead by how ozone should work in a similar lighting
global illumination model as in vue.


Michael

IMI
06-01-2008, 06:53 AM
Now this is perhaps the only way and how it should work, but in that case
Ivé might have been mislead by how ozone should work in a similar lighting
global illumination model as in vue.


Michael

That seems kind of odd, if I'm reading it right. I would expect that it would be Ozone's atmosphere managing the GI. It wouldn't seem right to have it any other way.
So, you have to use LW's GI and hope to set it up to be realistically compatible with what Ozone is doing? Am I getting that right?
That would seem to completely defeat the purpose of having Ozone to begin with, except to animate cloud motion, maybe.
I had assumed Ozone to be an atmosphere plugin for LW - at least that's how they seem to bill it. I would expect Ozone's atmosphere to completely take over and manage all of the atmosphere in your LW scene, including GI.

Steamthrower
06-01-2008, 07:23 AM
I'm in a sort of love-hate relationship with e-on right now. I recently upgraded to Vue 6 and it's been frustrating. First off the customer service is non-existent, which is a major turn-off in itself. But secondly, the .lwo import into the standalone version is crap! No other word to describe it. It's just amazingly lame, buggy, and slow. I think that every time you import the exact same object, it comes in different.

Yet at the same time e-on really makes the only widely-accepted and intuitive landscape and atmosphere plugins available. And the output is great and fast to achieve.

If you ever have any licensing problems, though, I'm sorry for you. You'll be stranded, lifeless.

prometheus
06-01-2008, 07:30 AM
yeah that really makes you think twice about the purpose of it, however..
Iīm not sure about all this, since Mr Rid says that he managed to get decent radiosity renders, but he might refere to just using lightwaves radiosity I donīt know.

however ozone could be of value of course, for volumetric clouds fly troughs
airplane dogfights and decending aircrafts through the clouds etc and having
hypervoxels smoke and particles to, that is a bit harder to set up using cameramatching and vue by itself.

Heres a sample pic that shows that the cloud is covering objects up in the air
..Maybe I should have put a boeing up there:)

I will continue testing for a couple of hours see how it works with hypervoxels,
also check how clouds cast shadows and godrays, and if godrays effect objects in the scene.
I have to check the cloud animation to if I have the time, the render times
for spectral clouds are a bit slow in my opinion,and thatīs still in preview mode, cant really be compared to render it in vue

Michael

IMI
06-01-2008, 09:22 AM
I just don't like Vue, period. Well, the skies you can make are far beyond what can be done with LW's sky tracers 1 and 2, but Vue as a whole just doesn't do it for me.
Vue is pretty much what got me into 3D, way back with version 2 when they still called it Vue d'Esprit. Back then they had a nice, religiously-involved community wit alot of developer presence and input. You could email tech support and get an answer back right away.
And I stuck with it through version 5.
Somewhere along the way they got all big and important and the bottom line seems to have taken precedent over quality and customer support.
It would be nice to have someone at NT create a new generation of sky tracer which can compete with Ozone in terms of quality, but be fully integrated into Layout.

Really, I'm kind of surprised. Every month that goes by sees yet another software company with sculpting and painting tools, trying to usurp Z Brush's hold on the market, but the atmosphere and landscape department seems to remain firmly in e-on's grip with no real competition.

Makes me wonder if they haven't worked out some sort of protection deal with the Corleone Family or something. ;)

bobakabob
06-01-2008, 10:32 AM
I was looking at Ozone a while back but it just seemed rather overpriced. A shame it's so unpredictable. Skytracer is still worth bumbling through and with a bit of luck can produce fair results. The only problem is you can usually spot Lightwave skies a mile off. It would be great to see an update of this neglected plugin. Eki's Skygen is a good alternative, as it makes use of animateable Lightwave's procedurals which render very quickly.

sean hargreaves
06-01-2008, 11:04 AM
I use Vue 6 for almost all my exteriors....I just make it work. I wish LW had what E-on has, but it does'nt, so I have no choice.

As in a lot of exterior 3d work, some lighting setups are more convincing than others, I try to customise everything I can to get what I want.

They have a forum that works similar to this one, I've used it a bit and its been helpful.

My biggest pain with the software is the importing of LW models. It can be a nightmare. If I import non flattened layers it can come in all over the place, upside down and sideways. Also, if you've got layers in different colors, forget it, the tendency is it will come in different colors. I try to flatten the layers in LW and texture in Vue.

I agree with others in that there are a lot of software developers developing 3d, but exterior wise, E-on has a stranglehold on the market.....therefore it has no competition.

prometheus
06-01-2008, 05:42 PM
I was looking at Ozone a while back but it just seemed rather overpriced. A shame it's so unpredictable. Skytracer is still worth bumbling through and with a bit of luck can produce fair results. The only problem is you can usually spot Lightwave skies a mile off. It would be great to see an update of this neglected plugin. Eki's Skygen is a good alternative, as it makes use of animateable Lightwave's procedurals which render very quickly.

Really I wouldnīt consider anything that doesnīt act/look like clouds do in the
real world, that means at least volumetric, so I would forget about skytracer and look in to what could be future stuff and I have to mention ogo taiki again could have been awesome, it was ahead of vues skies and fully volumetric long before also but it is still stomping on the same cloud level almost:)

The downsides to it was slowness and how to set up the air and a little bit confusing switching between cloud layers, that cant be compared to vues spectral atmosphere setup.

the renders seen on the ogo taiki website usually has to poor quality because of the fact that it takes so long to render, the render quality shown on the ogo taiki site isnīt the best thou that could be acheived with it.

It has a buckload of more control for control of shading and lights and colors in cloudlayers, and works with all lighwaves procedurals, it also has Air refraction wich ozone or vue donīt , it also has a natural way when moving
or zooming up in the sky to actually get that outer space look down to earth,(vues latest update should be able to do also that I think)

and ogo taiki also works with particles with its on volumetrics, sweet.
and it has a surface mode to create land from procedurals.

Newtek..please buy it and Revamp the user interface and boost the speed
10 to 15 times perhaps..or invent something new.
Go ahead make a scene..wait, we aint got any atmosphere and sky, letīs go out and take a snapshot with our camera:)


Michael

Mr Rid
06-02-2008, 01:17 PM
...
what I would like to come to a conclusion is if the global illumination model in ozone could be used to light up for example arcitechtural buildings and all other models instead of Lightwaves own radiosity model.

Michael

Guess I dont understand why you would want Ozone as the renderer. It seems to work fine as a source for LW radiosity.

prometheus
06-02-2008, 05:33 PM
Guess I dont understand why you would want Ozone as the renderer. It seems to work fine as a source for LW radiosity.

Well..simple because if it would have worked as in vue infinite, it would have given different way of handling radiosity than Lightwaves own, including control over soft shadows or direct sunlight, radiosity quality,skydome lighting gain, all those things in vue gives a more flexible control over how the landscape could be lighted, I believe lightwaves own radiosity donīt have that kind of control.

Oh..and in vue and ozones lighting controls there is two kinds of global illumination, the normal global illumination and then the radiosity model.
Im not sure if the control over how to set the light balance between ambient and direct sunlight can be done easy in lightwaves radiosity.

Michael

prometheus
06-02-2008, 07:40 PM
I donīt know, maybe Ivé been having to high expectations on the ozone plugin, some things worries me about it, I canīt get the clouds to cast any
shadows on to the ground and thereīs no option to select it either so maybe
itīs not doable.

Editing of cloudlayers, well.. the option to change noise or density types that are in the function editor way isnīt there, the advanced cloud material editor isnīt there either, so there is no way to scale the density production or changing cloud layer detail like scaling, roughness, variations and uniformity. only scaleable cloud layer.

Michael

Mr Rid
06-03-2008, 05:10 PM
Well..simple because if it would have worked as in vue infinite, it would have given different way of handling radiosity than Lightwaves own, including control over soft shadows or direct sunlight, radiosity quality,skydome lighting gain, all those things in vue gives a more flexible control over how the landscape could be lighted, I believe lightwaves own radiosity donīt have that kind of control.

Oh..and in vue and ozones lighting controls there is two kinds of global illumination, the normal global illumination and then the radiosity model.
Im not sure if the control over how to set the light balance between ambient and direct sunlight can be done easy in lightwaves radiosity.

Michael

It still seems that you can do all of this easily with Ozone providing the atmospheric illumination for LW radiosity. Soften shadows- scale an area light. Radiosity quality- rays per evaluation. Gain and Balance- adjust intensity of lights or GI in Ozone or LW.

59452

59453

prometheus
06-03-2008, 05:24 PM
well maybe (easily)
you could of course get very decent radiosity renders perhaps even
better radiosity in some cases.
But to tweak it outside ozones global illumination model isnīt what I was expection.
I believe it takes more time to set it up in lightwave than it would have been
ozone.
and still I believe it would be much much harder to acheive that balance between global illumination and direct sunlight, theres a direct slider for that in ozone, wich of course donīt work for lightwave, neither skydome gain,or radiosity gain, I just feel it was so easy to set up in vue and would like to have had the same control in ozone.

By the way Mr Rid have you used vue infinite? or just this ple version of ozone?

Michael

monovich
06-03-2008, 10:16 PM
I used OGO for some timelapse clouds in my Stand short film and had some pretty good luck. It could have been much better if I'd been more of a diligent tweaker, but it got me there without much grief, and rendered quickly enough even on the machines from 2-3 years ago.

prometheus
06-03-2008, 10:37 PM
I used OGO for some timelapse clouds in my Stand short film and had some pretty good luck. It could have been much better if I'd been more of a diligent tweaker, but it got me there without much grief, and rendered quickly enough even on the machines from 2-3 years ago.

Yepp ..Ogo taiki could produce pretty amazing images if quality was set correctly, it has a wast amount of different quality settings and modes both for overall master quality and for each individual layer.
True it is hard two tweak it, because theres so much stuff in there to tweak,
the hardest part is maybe to set up the air properties I wish it could have vues spectral air setups,and it reacts in a more natural way perhaps, on the other hand you can achieve so much more with it ogo taiki, enormous amount
of control for lighting of clouds,coloring etc etc but I think ivé mentioned that before, and a plus for all the procedurals, I really like the weather procedural from denis p.

ohh and the fog layer thou very slow produces even better godrays than vue does in my opinion the rays can more naturally cast the beams up over the clouds if the sun is set very low, I think vue has a problem with that plus vues godray applies a very dark tone to the clouds so the overall
appearance sometimes looks awful.

Now vue has of course an enormous speed and it is easy to setup,and
inside vue it works great with vues own preview window and that window
can of course be scaled to a very big size, that isnīt translated in to ozone
neither the cloud detail options, and the cloud layers cant even be rotated or
changed proceduraly, except for loading in different cloud materials.
anyone gotten the clouds to cast shadows on to the ground and objects?

so even if itīs fast and you can get som very nice looking atmospheres and clouds, it seems that itīs not integrated well with lightwave.

Michael

Mr Rid
06-04-2008, 01:38 AM
...

By the way Mr Rid have you used vue infinite? or just this ple version of ozone?

Michael

Just the PLE. Based on that, I would not buy it. But I cant tell if if the full license would work any better, since support does not respond to questions. Does anyone know if you can keyframe anything besides the sun position and azimuth? No other value will keyframe in the PLE. Keying the sun is wonky and not always predictable. I really need to envelope timelapse but I already know the animation values are specifically not keyframeable, which seems completely ridiculous. Why have the sun keyframeable but not the clouds?

The docs say to animate the light in Layout but that does not work well at all. After disabling the Ozone motion mod, the sun position may appear to match the location of the light in Layout at first, but when I make multiple keys and render, the light moves around unpredictably.

Many of the presets dont look like the thumbnail. Some of them only render totally blown out and no setting will correct it. There also seems to be no way to simply position the clouds on the XYZ. Most of the presets dont look any less procedural-ish than Skytracer, or render any faster, so I dont know what the idea is with Ozone.

Am resorting to voxels for the moment.

Darth Mole
06-04-2008, 01:49 AM
Since I updated the UB version to the >cough<OB9.5>cough< Ozone has simply stopped working for me - It's crash city every time. I hope that one day in the future, it will run again... but given my experience with Vue xStream I'm not terribly hopeful to be honest.

prometheus
06-04-2008, 02:14 AM
Aha..I was just wondering if you ever tried vue infinite, but if you donīt it can be
hard to understand how delicate it is to fine tune lighting over a landscape in vue, compared to set it up directly in lightwave.

I have to go and dream of electric sheeps,sleepy now.

I just tested cloud animation setting the velocity works with auto keyframing, have to figure out how to add a keyframe.
A little bit sad that the animation of the clouds cant be viewed in a preview
window like viper, have to check it later on maybe how it turns out rendered.
using the animation slider I can see that the clouds are changing accordingly
to my velocity and rate of change setting.

for me this plugin is not what I expected so I wouldnīt by it in its current state.
What I can recall, theres actually not much more in this plugin than the spectral atmosphere and environment mapping, otherwise it looks just like the old ozone plugin I guess.

It makes me wonder thou, I just read about the global illumination and radiosity in the help doc for ozone...and it states clearly that it can be used
to illuminate objects as described, but that seems most certainly as a false
statement, and the team on e-on has mailed me that it in fact donīt work(confused)

Vue infinite is a totaly different story thou,some better cloud models
and a better tree editor plus a sculpting tool working on all directions on normals on the terrain and perhaps a texture paint tool then it would be awesome, together with geocontrol or worldmachine.


So stick to voxels or better yet ogo taiki if there is a need for volumetric clouds and atmospheres.

Michael

prometheus
06-04-2008, 02:36 AM
well the timelapse render worked, after some tinkering.
Really got to sleep now..I will get back and check this thread in later and perhaps I can give an explanation on how to do it if it is needed.

See simple sample.

Mr Rid
06-04-2008, 05:08 PM
well the timelapse render worked, after some tinkering.
Really got to sleep now..I will get back and check this thread in later and perhaps I can give an explanation on how to do it if it is needed.

See simple sample.

Right, I can do this with the cloud animation values but they are not keyframeable. What I am needing is to key different values on different frames to create an envelope, as in having the animation speed up, slow down and ease in and out. The only value it appears you can keyframe in Ozone is the sun position which seems pretty lame.

prometheus
06-04-2008, 07:00 PM
oki, I understand, are the keyframe options all greyed out? I mean all the smooth in smooth out options and linear or custom etc? or can you apply that to your keyframes? or is it I guess that you need to set specific values and I dont thing thats possible to set except for those options.

I think it also states in the help doc that the velocity and change of rate are constant throu
the animation and can only be set for the first keyframe.

all the sky properties values should be keyframeable except cloud material.
I guess you have checked the ozone help docs on keyframing.

A note, drag your animation slider to that frame you wish to add a keyframe for, select your value slider like fog or glow and drag it to that value you want
and it will automaticly add a keyframe for that change.

leftmouse button and click on that keyframe to select it,it turns black indicating itīs selected, then rightclick to get the options keyframe/keyframeoptions/ease out,ease in smooth out etc,etc....but you might now that already.

Michael

Philbert
06-06-2008, 05:48 PM
I haven't tried it, but I've read alot of people saying the x-stream vue is sort of what you describe - billed as a plugin, but essentially using the LW interface in lieu of Vue, though slower, but with very little input allowed from LW.

My current studio bought me a copy of Vue 6 XStream near the end of last year. It's awful to work with. I didn't notice any speed issues, but it kept creating key frames in random places, some of the check boxes and stuff didn't do anything at all, and it kept crashing constantly, taking LW and Vue both down. When it did work the renders looked pretty nice.

Mr Rid
06-07-2008, 01:27 AM
...
all the sky properties values should be keyframeable except cloud material.
I guess you have checked the ozone help docs on keyframing.

A note, drag your animation slider to that frame you wish to add a keyframe for, select your value slider like fog or glow and drag it to that value you want
and it will automaticly add a keyframe for that change....
Michael

Yeah, that doesnt work in the PLE. Only the sun will key. So at least I know that other values will key.

Mr Rid
06-07-2008, 01:28 AM
My current studio bought me a copy of Vue 6 XStream near the end of last year. It's awful to work with. I didn't notice any speed issues, but it kept creating key frames in random places, some of the check boxes and stuff didn't do anything at all, and it kept crashing constantly, taking LW and Vue both down. When it did work the renders looked pretty nice.

Yes, I have all the same problems with Ozone.

Mr Rid
06-07-2008, 05:02 PM
Yepp ..Ogo taiki could produce pretty amazing images if quality was set correctly,

Michael

Unfortunately, Ogo examples, as well as all cloud gen apps for LW Ive seen, still all look quite procedurally. Occasionally something looks cloud-like but always fall significantly short of looking real.

What I see in real clouds is effectively 2 or more different hypertextures within the same cloud, somewhat based on density. There may be a round puffy quality in the thicker areas, and a more wispy quality near the edges or wherever the cloud is thinner. Have requested this for a long time, but I wish I could just combine more than one hypertexture in voxels. Cant get the same result with textures. I can get a pretty convncing puffy cloud, or a more thin wispy one, but I really ned both qualities within the same cloud.

Have tried cutting the cloud into separate objects with one texture for the outer and another for the inner, but render time suddenly becomes insane as LW tries to calculate two separate voxel objects in the same vicinity.

prometheus
06-07-2008, 06:46 PM
well I agree and disagree to a certain extent, I really think ogo taiki could produce the most natural looking clouds out there, but maybe no one has
come that close, itīs a matter of tweaking, knowledge and a good sense and feel of how clouds look and time to do it.

Ogo taiki has some density values that could be changed either by density curve or minimum,maximum clippings and those are all controllable by envelopes or even textures and gradients, so I believe theres a possibility
to acheive soft whispy edges combined with more fuller density inside the clouds, However itīs probably difficult to get that full volume and texture inside the cloud that hypervoxels can do pretty good but on the other hand hypervoxels have the difficulties to acheive whispy edges and two hypertextures as you said.

Maybe something could be acheive with denis p node volume to actually add
several hypertextures, I did some experiments on that but it didnīt turn out that well at the time.

Ogo taiki could blend different procedurals over each other in the density tab,
everything from weather,gardner clouds,IFW2 planet clouds.
It has three falloff settings, it has upper and lower texture scale, and all of this can be controlled by textures or gradients to..so the amount of control
over clouds are very vast compared to ozones control.
The clouds shadow,lighting and color shading has a control that ozone or vue
canīt come close tho, ozone or vue has a very natural response thou and itīs
easy to set up, but it lacks control.

However some of the clouds in ozone is pretty decent to start with thou,unfortunatly the cloud detail and uniformity tabs arent there as in vue and that makes a big difference to how the clouds look.
Ohh..and the clouds donīt seem to be able to cast shadows on the ground
a big minus.

I have seen a sample scene that comes with maya of a cloud fluid model..so those are pretty sweet, not perfect but could be tweaked of course.

heres a sample pic of ogo clouds, weather procedural,draft viper render and
not the best quality thou..also a fog layer that slows down render time.
Theres so much parameters to tweak in all procedurals so a lot of options to get it right and the problem is having a fast preview speed to tweak it.
I couldnīt stand using ogo taiki without the vipers Mosaic mode.

Michael

Mr Rid
06-08-2008, 12:51 AM
well I agree and disagree to a certain extent, I really think ogo taiki could produce the most natural looking clouds out there, but maybe no one has
come that close, itīs a matter of tweaking, knowledge and a good sense and feel of how clouds look and time to do it.



OGO clouds might look acceptably cloud-like after some post processing. But the examples on the OGO site just all look procedural and artificial. I really need something more realistic looking.

prometheus
06-08-2008, 01:06 AM
well ..those samples on the ogo site was done long ago..there are some better procedurals for the clouds, the weather plugin probably the best.
and yes, as to what I can see..the samples on that page hasnīt got the best quality in render settings..and also the shadows and lighting could be better.

But its. hard to nail exactly what it is in the clouds you think look to fractal and whats ok.

can you point or show me a thread to how they should or could look like, just
post a link or thread to a site.
something from vues gallery?
Terragen 2 gallery? or are all those pretty much the same stuff?

I would probably say that terragen 2 can get very close in terms of getting
cumulus clouds good.

or do you know of something else that can do this outside of lightwave?

Michael

Mr Rid
06-13-2008, 03:39 PM
...

But its. hard to nail exactly what it is in the clouds you think look to fractal and whats ok.

can you point or show me a thread to how they should or could look like, ...

Michael

Well I am looking at any image of real clouds to know what CG clouds should look like.

A response from E-on that took a few weeks to receive:

"In fact the PLE version of Ozone hasn't been updated since a while. We alreday planned to release a new version of it at the beginning of next week, so could get the new PLE next wednesday?
Part of the problem you point out will be fixed.
Remaining will be the keyframing of atmosphere. It is the same in Vue so it hasn't been fixed. The keyframe are created for the whole atmosphere and not for specific parameters, it is the same in the release version.
For the initial in the preset it indicates if it used Global Illumination, Ambient Occlusion or Global Radiosity (GI, AO, GR).
I really hope you will have more luck with the next update.
Don't hesitate to contact me again if needed."

prometheus
06-14-2008, 08:13 AM
[QUOTE=Mr Rid;710136]Well I am looking at any image of real clouds to know what CG clouds should look like.

Real clouds are so different in appearance and cg clouds can do some of them pretty well but some others not.
I really would like to know if theres any software or plugin that actually does
this in a photorealistic way.

so..do you think you can get that close to photorealism with ozone? except that your having troubles with all that keyframing?

I was thinking of How houdini goes about it, I have a tutorial on that cloud image3d technique and vex shaders, but itīs not available on the oddforce net anymore, but it looked like a decent way to create clouds.
It starts with creating L-systems to do a sort of treebranching and then applied metaballs to that L-system and the 3d texture is then applied and written to disk, I havent tried this myself thou but it seemed very flexible pretty fast and with a nice output, especially the blendcontrol between
the soft whispy outer edge and the fuller innervolume that is controlled by
the vex volume shader.

I believe It is most different to how we would do it in Lightwave with hypervoxels on nulls,pointclusters or on a sculpted object.

Vues metacloud techniques are pretty nice but itīs not very efficient
to shape the clouds anyway, and the innertextures dontīget that nice perlinstyle billowing in a realistic way, it just gets very detailed in a fractal way.

It would also have been better to be able to apply metaclouds to any shape instead of just spheres for easier shaping, maybe they will do an improvement on that, the hypertextures volume material can be applyied to any shape so why not metaclouds.

I would be nice to see how it looks if you have gotten any close with hypervoxels.
I sure would like a new hypervoxels system be able to apply on the whole shape instead of using it on the points on the objects, and then scale the voxels up until they blend in a proper way.

A little implementation in some fluids plugins like dynamite could be the best way to go also, after all.. clouds are built up in a fluid gaseous way I guess.

Michael

Mr Rid
06-16-2008, 02:51 PM
Tech problems aside, Ozone still looks too procedural.

Houdini is the only app that Ive seen do realistic clouds. When I first considered using Houdini a few years ago, I was told that the process for integrating with LW scenes was prohibitively complicated by someone who had done it. Maybe something has changed now. I heard it also still does not support floating point image formats.

One thing that Ozone and OGO do well is the overall placement of the clouds that is very natural looking and difficult to mimic with sculpted point objects or particle tricks.

Dynamite may provide something, but I have avoided it because of too many problems I hear with it (particularly with 93) and lack of support, and examples do not indicate that it still would not contribute to a tendrily/hairy quality.

Some HV tests-
59830

59831

59832

Edbittner
06-19-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't know guys. To me there's no comparison between Ozone and Ogo. I'll have to stick with Ogo until realtime interactive volumetrics become a reality.
E.

Mr Rid
06-20-2008, 09:50 PM
I don't know guys. To me there's no comparison between Ozone and Ogo. I'll have to stick with Ogo until realtime interactive volumetrics become a reality.
E.

Well I see some crunchy noise and banding in those examples that I dont get in Ozone.

prometheus
06-21-2008, 04:44 PM
the crunchy noise and banding is due to quality settings, theres a ton of quality settings different layers and thereīs an overall quality master setting, thereīs cloud layer quality settings,air and fog and samples can be set
by either using values from 1 and up to thousand or use low,medium,high, ultra high and linear or fixed linear...

So theres actually to many settings perhaps, and together with the fact that ogo taiki takes a long time to render is most likely the reason why you probably havenīt seen any good quality in it yet, but you shouldnīt be fooled by that, that example from ed was probably just low quality, but Agreed..it would be nice to see some high quality stuff rendered...speed and time,speed and time.

otherwise it could produce same quality and even better cloudlayers than ozone and it have similar air properties,
granted thou..the ozone spectral cloudlayers has an faster easier way to set up cloudlayers with presets to get fast results
including the quality settings, but in the end..
you simple cant get the variations in cloudlayers procedurals and shadow,color and lighting as you can with ogo taiki.

The only reason I can think of not to using ogo taiki is speed,time and the fact that it takes time to learn and setup fast,especially
the air and quality settings.(good reasons thou)

but other than that it would be a better plugin solution to work within lightwave if someone worked on it,basicly a better
interface to setup the air properties like in ozone and better handling of layers wich can be confusing in ogo taiki, and it needs an massive overall speed boost, maybe when Lightwave getīs an overhaul on the volumetrics.


still have no clue if ozone can cast cloud shadows on to the ground, and if the volumetrics in ozone really affects objects?
Ogo taiki works with that and it also works with particles to build up clouds or smoke or having a plane fly through and affect
cloud particles.

using ozone and vue is two different horses I would say, we donīt have all the options to change cloudmaterials as in function editor or
even the cloud detail settings that are in vue. and many vue spectral clouds renders at the e-on gallery has a typical character of small round puffballs breaking up in the clouds that arenīt very nice, that is due to the type of function and scale used in the cloud material, in fact I think that the spectral clouds look better without using those functions for density and just using the advanced cloud detail tab in most cases.

It would be awesome if vue could use the kind of procedurals lightwave has such as the weather,gardner clouds,flownoise or
ifw2 planet clouds, basicly vues function procedurals are poor and not up to same standard as lightwaves procedurals.

Now..the cloud layers in vue,ozone and ogo taiki does give a good world setup for some types of cloud but for the big
cumulus type, ozone canīt provide anything of use I think, for that we need objects or point,particle clusters and in
lightwave we can do it with ogo taiki using particle mode or using hypervoxels, but then again..slow hv rendering, because we
most certainly need big hv size to give a good natural way to blend the particles and not to mention, we donīt have
the easy way to preview and setup the blend between created cloud and air like in vues Metaclouds.

The metacloud technique is promising, still needs some more work on it, but something similar with hypervoxels could and
should be valuable when hv gets reinvented, hypervoxels applied and takes the form after a modeled,sculpted geometry not
only at a point,vertices level.
it also should have options to get the hypertexture detail more appearant on the objects outer boundaries and the thickness less in the same way, and options for several hypertextures aswell.

Using metaclouds are Fast and have a decent lighting quality and the best part is vues internal viewer that makes it so
easy to setup and it does so with all other stuff in the scene.

However I think it needs better way to deal with cloud detail density, it either gets to little or to much overall, so if want
more detail at the outer edges I will get to much in the inside, maybe just the same problem as with hypervoxels.

I Agree with you Mr Rid..cantarcan has some serious issues with giving support and information and also the bugs showing up
in his last release of dynamite, Itīs a petty..it could have been pretty sweet by now.
cloud layers could have been done using fluids and using procedurals on density channels as in mayas fluid cloud samples.

And yes..houdini clouds has been a proven technique in many films such as superman,timemachine and airline commercials.

heres some samples of vues metaclouds I did over a year Ago, some has the lower quality render settings, and I could probably
tweak the metaclouds a little better, Im not satisfied thou with the billow puffs trying to get that nice cumulus clouds.

I wich I could get some more time to do some hypervoxel cloud renders or do some high quality renders from ogo taiki to show you
Mr Rid, but just now recently in the summer I have to work extra in an not 3d related job.
I will have a break in august perhaps.

Ohh by the way...to bad I donīt have the camera or the time in the morning to take some snapshots at the cloudscapes here over stockholm
in the beginning of the summer, cause it has been a heatwave reaching 27-28 degree celsius at the start of june, and now a cold front is
sweeping in and in the morning the clouds starts to build up to those great cumulus hammerheads..pretty amazing cloudscapes.

Michael

Philbert
06-21-2008, 06:19 PM
it has been a heatwave reaching 27-28 degree celsius at the start of june,

That's a heatwave? We just had a week of 98 (36.6) and above temps. :p

prometheus
06-21-2008, 06:49 PM
That's a heatwave? We just had a week of 98 (36.6) and above temps. :p

he..maybe not, but for a northern city itīs pretty warm in the beginning of may, june.
I actually donīt know the exact degree it was on the swedish national day on the 6 th june here in stockholm maybe it was higher than 28 degree not sure, but even higher up in the north in the city falun they had 32 degree celsius at 6 june,and at the time that was the hotest place to be in all europe appearantly.

mostly we wonīt reach 36 degree on the summers, maybe 32,34 degree later on in july.
The warmth record in sweden I think is something around 38 celsius,set at
1947 in småland down south in sweden.

Right now theres rain and thunderclouds above, it usually turns up in time
for the midsommer celebrations the 20:th june when everyone wants to eat
meatballs,and a fish called sill, and strawberrys,and girls are suppose to pick 7 flowers and put under their pillows to dream about the guy(or women) whom they are to be married, and then grown ups are forced to dance around the
midsommer pole and sing that silly song about little frogs.

Michael

Philbert
06-21-2008, 06:56 PM
[QUOTE=prometheus;713191]grown ups are forced to dance around the
midsommer pole and sing that silly song about little frogs.
/QUOTE]

Looks like fun to me (YouTube videos).