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View Full Version : Lightwave vs' 3Dmax ??!!



StudioBOZON
05-28-2008, 12:01 PM
I was wondering lately on this thing, when surfing on this CGcars forum. Most of the cars (almost all) are made with 3Dmax. Suprissingly a lot of people are sayng that this is ther first or second car and it looks just great. even when the model isn't fantastic, almost all the time the surfaces are great. is it all about the presets, that are in 3dmax, or is it about the vray or any other rendering engine ?? When I get back to my first cars made in LW with the use of some surface presets (that was the time when i didn't know to much about surfacing), they don't look as good, as the first cars of max users.

If i'm right, maby Newtek should put some presets. studio photography could have a ready set with planes and backgrounds, with lights and a set of most popular materials design to work with that set - to get a great effects in a short time, as in 3d max. The user would have to maintaine the scale to fit the materials an model the main objects.

I've tried to do something in 3Dmax, but it's hard to switch between max and lw. and the inteface is a nightmare... i just don't like it, but i'm trying to get fair on this. So what do U gus think, why are max user get their results faster (or mayby i'm wrong)? :devil:

Captain Obvious
05-28-2008, 01:01 PM
Supplying content is a lower priority than actually, you know, developing Lightwave. Having a bunch of presets for rendering cars seems like something a few people could enjoy, but not really worth their time.

StudioBOZON
05-28-2008, 01:23 PM
well, yes You are right, but still 3d max is more popular then LW, and it's not about rendering cars or othere stuff, Newtek could add some environment preset, not only the studio stuff. And the most important thing is, that 3D max has a higher price and still is more popular. Well i know that the 3rd party content costs, and its price has a great influence on the end price of 3Dmax.

I'm happy to see a 3rd party renderers, as k-ray, fprime, maxwel and some others. A lot of stuff is now much easyer compairing to LW5.5 (wich i started with), and a lot of ready presets are added. You could treat it that LW is for pros, becouse to get a good render or surface it's not just as easy as loading presets, but you have to build it from scratch. You have to know a lot of skills as how real world materials are build, the basics of drawing, painting (using colors) and air - photons influences on surfaces.

but i don't know if this is necessery, becous a good 3d graphic has to do a good images, doesn't need to be a phisician or a painter. ready presets would speed up workflow.

But still i don't know if it's all abuout presets in Max. Then what is ? Any one has any experience with Max ?

Steamthrower
05-28-2008, 02:01 PM
No experience with Max, but far too much experience with AutoCad, and after several years of that, I'm so pissed off by banks of hundreds of icons and endless checkboxed dialogs and pathetic customer service and insane prices and upgrades that I don't even want to consider Max.

The lack of quality presets has been frustrating to me, however. When I get a project, more times than not I need at least a preliminary rendering within a couple of days (or less), and surfacing takes longer for me than the modeling. Especially with the complexity of the node editor for new users, and the sheer amount of time it takes to set up your nodes and mixers and fine-tune every setting on every node. It might take me two hours to get a satisfactory aluminum look...but if a good one had been in the preset panel I could have applied it, and tweaked it to my needs in 10 or 15 minutes.

I couldn't imagine that the node editor would need that many presets...just an excellent car surface, an excellent skin surface, an excellent glass, excellent rubber, excellent hair, and an excellent liquid/goo surface.

Captain Obvious
05-28-2008, 04:31 PM
And what would you do with your elemental presets? I'm sorry, but I'm very sceptical. Leave the preset-based market to Daz.

As for material presets and whatnot, they have nothing to do with NewTek. Someone just needs to build a material database, like Maxwell and Vray, etc, has.

StudioBOZON
05-28-2008, 05:30 PM
DAZ isn't good enough - it's a mass production, I don't know where to use the stuff they are doing, it's to good for some architectural wizualizations, but to week for photorealistic rendering. in this case it's better to do it your self. But as for me, I spend almoust a year developing a car laquer (when making some models - it was more lerning then developing), that i'm happy with, if there were some ready presets, i could do some more stuff, it's not that i didn't enjoy it. Yes i did, and my knowledge on doing sorfaces i much greater, then if i would do it by preset, but when there would ideal presets for every ocasion, i wouldn't have to know it at all. It's like developing a game - 3D graphics don't have to deal with object programing, or some other crazy stuff.

Captain Obvious - Yeah i totaly agree with You, that presets kills the art (if this U had in mind), But when i'm learning to do some... lets say modeling - first of all i'm serching the web for some mesh pictures, then if i can download this mesh and i can see how it's done, i can implent some solutions to my models - that's what i mean by saying that presets should be better. The ones that are right now with LW are so week, that i can't even call them a base material... their just almost useless to do some photoreal stuff ;(

Newtek should support the starters with materials with wich they could jump above all the mistakes, that we were making, Why do the same mistake twice ? It's a lost of time

BeeVee
05-29-2008, 07:06 AM
It's not quite ready yet, but http://www.presetcentral.com/ will be a very good repository for surface (*and other) presets when it's done.

B

MrFurious
05-29-2008, 08:55 PM
It's not quite ready yet, but http://www.presetcentral.com/ will be a very good repository for surface (*and other) presets when it's done.

B

Not quite ready?...that site hasnt been updated since October '07 :stumped:

AbnRanger
05-29-2008, 09:26 PM
I'm predominantly a Max user...and he does have a point. Mental Ray has a shiny set of new Arch and Design shaders that came with Max 9, and they just added some "Pro-Materials" in Max 2009 that are based on real world specs. They are a very handy addition for the reasons he stated.
So it wouldn't be a bad idea for Newtek to include similar materials for it's customers, based on the reception those Mental Ray materials have gotten

archijam
05-30-2008, 01:52 AM
Agreed. A few decent surface default surface settings are a MUST. In the age of PLE's, quick setup of a basic scene, which gives a few good results is one of the most important things for a prospective new user.

Whether they are installed or just easy to find (and linked to in the docs) is not as important, but some of the existing presets in LW really need to be cleaned out ...

Is it just me or does every new user get this red eyeball in their presets? Make it go away! ;) It's very misleading ..

BeeVee
05-30-2008, 07:44 AM
Not quite ready?...that site hasnt been updated since October '07 :stumped:

That page hasn't, but there is frantic work going on behind the scenes believe me! ;)

B

prometheus
05-30-2008, 07:54 AM
That page hasn't, but there is frantic work going on behind the scenes believe me! ;)

B

Nice to hear and interesting, Ivé been missing that page for a long..long time, and I would also like to make contributions to that page with my own presets, hypervoxels included.

Michael

StudioBOZON
05-30-2008, 01:12 PM
i'm happy to hear this too. I hope that newtek will get involved. :thumbsup:

MrFurious
05-30-2008, 10:50 PM
here here :beerchug:

Captain Obvious
06-01-2008, 01:08 PM
I'm predominantly a Max user...and he does have a point. Mental Ray has a shiny set of new Arch and Design shaders that came with Max 9, and they just added some "Pro-Materials" in Max 2009 that are based on real world specs. They are a very handy addition for the reasons he stated.
So it wouldn't be a bad idea for Newtek to include similar materials for it's customers, based on the reception those Mental Ray materials have gotten
Yes, but these are SHADERS, not PRESETS. Huge difference.

bobakabob
06-01-2008, 01:54 PM
That page hasn't, but there is frantic work going on behind the scenes believe me! ;)

B


Great news... Lightwave seriously needs a fast accessible preset resource... great for work that needs doing as a hurry and a learning tool for figuring out nodes. Hope it will include Hypervoxels... and how about SkyTracer?

bobakabob
06-01-2008, 01:55 PM
Ooops I meant to add character rigs would be a bonus :)

IMI
06-01-2008, 08:17 PM
Great news... Lightwave seriously needs a fast accessible preset resource... great for work that needs doing as a hurry and a learning tool for figuring out nodes. Hope it will include Hypervoxels... and how about SkyTracer?

Only problem with that is even the existing presets almost always need so much tweaking due to variations in model type and lighting, camera distance, object thickness... that you're pretty much redoing it all anyway.
Better, IMO, to learn how to get what you want, and to learn the nodes thoroughly. Same with hypervoxels. Particle size makes a huge difference in what you get, as does lighting.
And IMO, the volumetric light presets are rather unusable, too.
I do agree though skytracer presets might be useful.

bobakabob
06-02-2008, 12:57 AM
Only problem with that is even the existing presets almost always need so much tweaking due to variations in model type and lighting, camera distance, object thickness... that you're pretty much redoing it all anyway.
Better, IMO, to learn how to get what you want, and to learn the nodes thoroughly. Same with hypervoxels. Particle size makes a huge difference in what you get, as does lighting.
And IMO, the volumetric light presets are rather unusable, too.
I do agree though skytracer presets might be useful.

Agree, much better to start from scratch, though surely the benefits outweigh the advantages. It would encourage sharing and collaboration. I'm sure we've all learned from resources we've downloaded from the net.

StudioBOZON
06-02-2008, 11:46 AM
i'm pretty shure, that a great library would speed up the work flow. The surface parameters depends on the whole scene configuration, though there should be some prestets, for the whole set. There should be a scene with shaders or surface presets just for that scene, with lighting and camera set to get the best results in short time. There are a lot of projects, that are made just to fit in a deadline, and they don'have to be an art master piece. Afcourse all works should be the best they can, but lets get real, a lot of them don't need to be that way. I'm shure, that most of You (as my self) had these clients, that sead "i don't need it hyper-real, this is good, enough..." I know what U'll say... here's the answer - the presets that are right now won't do, there to week. To be real, right now i'm using the presets just on the surfaces, that wont be in a render, the hidden ones like unde the car (underbody?), that will work just for the radiosity, to bounce the photons of...

bobakabob
06-02-2008, 12:24 PM
surely the benefits outweigh the advantages

Ooops... Did I really write that?! :D

Steamthrower
06-02-2008, 02:03 PM
Ooops... Did I really write that?! :D

At least the better alternative is not as bad...

manholoz
06-05-2008, 08:53 AM
Too much presets, and the results will tend to look "canned", which is a problem with (for example) Poser. And lots of 3dsmax stuff. Some people don't even look for different sky backgrounds than those that come with the software!

But yes, presets as a LEARNING and tweaking base, I agree with that wholeheartedly.

AbnRanger
06-05-2008, 03:01 PM
Yes, but these are SHADERS, not PRESETS. Huge difference.What do you mean? Mental Ray's Arch and Design SHADERS contain a group of presets, allowing you a very good starting point, so the artist doesn't have to spend half his work day trying to build one from scratch and tweak for hours. That's the concept...and to borrow part of a quote from from Tony Stark (in Iron Man) "That's how Mental Ray does it....That's how America does it...and it's worked out pretty good so far." :D
http://download.autodesk.com/global/3dsmax/featureVideos/max9_mentalray_improvments_large.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsm...%20Shaders.mov
http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsmax/2009demos/04%20Materials%20and%20Maps.mov

I understand we would ideally like a custom look to our work, but there are times when you apply a preset, and if it's well constructed, you may find that it gives you exactly the look you're after. Why spend needless time trying to make it look "uncanned"....hence the old CG addage, "If it LOOKS good...it IS good!"

Captain Obvious
06-05-2008, 03:14 PM
Well yeah, but I don't think NewTek should spend a lot of time creating presets when they can spend it developing shaders and fixing bugs ;)

StudioBOZON
06-09-2008, 04:43 PM
Well yeah, but I don't think NewTek should spend a lot of time creating presets when they can spend it developing shaders and fixing bugs ;)

Well, I think, that newtek should spend time on both of those things, so we don't have to. We're paying for the software. I don't think that my clients would like to pay for my mistakes (if thay knew...), and even if they are paing for my training, still I would radder get a next job, to buy another copy of Lightwave - this way everyone is happy ;)

colkai
06-10-2008, 02:42 AM
Well, I think, that newtek should spend time on both of those things, so we don't have to. We're paying for the software. I don't think that my clients would like to pay for my mistakes (if thay knew...), and even if they are paing for my training, still I would radder get a next job

This skirts dangerously close to the "make the computer do the work for me" issue. If Newtek provided fast one-click solutions for everything, then really, you're never going to learn anything.
Sometimes, the act of making mistakes and 'training' is what moves you forward, otherwise we wouldn't need training at all and software would be just a bunch of presets.

Really, the client normally is paying for your mistakes and training as every time you do a job, you learn something new, a faster way to do something, etc.

I'd rather have features and reliability, there are plenty of free resources out there to help you on your way, but relying on presets will teach you nothing at all about how said presets were made. Should you need a preset but tweaked, you're back on your own anyway but then without any understanding of how to tweak things.

Learning never ends, ever, it's what keeps the ole grey matter fresh.

archijam
06-10-2008, 03:11 AM
This skirts dangerously close to the "make the computer do the work for me" issue. If Newtek provided fast one-click solutions for everything, then really, you're never going to learn anything.
Sometimes, the act of making mistakes and 'training' is what moves you forward, otherwise we wouldn't need training at all and software would be just a bunch of presets.

Having decent presets does not preclude thinking. It gives examples from which to learn and master material properties. It is clear the LW documentation is not going to do this, nor should it.

The existing presets that package with LW are largely a red herring, they neither show what is truly possible, or the best way to do things with the current tech.

If i can't load a model and apply at least ONE reasonable looking texture from those supplied (let alone the rest of the scene), then something is just wrong in the software's priorities. Most of us did not start using LW to design materials from scratch, and not all of us can afford to search for days for the properties of 50 different surface types...

LW has very strong capabilities in surfacing, but you would never know, to look round the software ... I guess everyone has to join a forum .. ?

colkai
06-10-2008, 07:11 AM
Heck yeah, can you imagine trying to learn 3D without having a forum for help?

Oh, wait, many did :p and boy, I would NOT want to go back there.

So the problem isn't that there aren't enough presets, just not enough of the type people want? You see, this is where I get confused, it's kinda like which feature is most important, same with presets, then it's a case of where to draw the line on which are useful. To be honest, of all the presets I have, 90% of them I never touch, using only the more suitable ones I created myself for my projects.

If we feel we must have decent materials supplied, to me, it also stands to reason to expect decent lighting models as presets, so we don't have to spend time figuring out a decent lighting for our scenes. As I say, whilst presets are good, there is a danger of reliance of the software to do your work.

I totally acknowledge that folks mileage may vary and many may use lots and lots of preset surfaces.
As I've said though, I'd sacrifice that for better software and stability.

IMI
06-10-2008, 04:10 PM
If i can't load a model and apply at least ONE reasonable looking texture from those supplied (let alone the rest of the scene), then something is just wrong in the software's priorities. Most of us did not start using LW to design materials from scratch, and not all of us can afford to search for days for the properties of 50 different surface types...

LW has very strong capabilities in surfacing, but you would never know, to look round the software ... I guess everyone has to join a forum .. ?

There's nothing wrong with good presets, but as I already mentioned, most of the presets are going to need alot of tweaking anyway.
Well, the material nodes are probably about as close as you'd be able to get to "presets", when it comes to surfacing, but even there they'll need major tweaking most of the time. Not just surface tweaks, but lighting, too.
Even the best surface designer in the world isn't going to be able to make presets that will "work" with just any model. Consider how much scale/grid, position and lighting determine how a surface works on a LW model. And those are just a few things.
You could design planet surfaces all day long and they'd all likely work well with spheres, or simple surfaces for walls or floors or other basically primitive shapes, but show me someone who has created, say, the definitive SSS skin surface preset that will just work great out of the box. It really can't be done.
I've made alot of surfaces I thought looked great and I have a huge custom surface library, but these rarely look any good in other scenes or on other models beyond what they were originally made for.
Personally, I'd rather see NT's designers, architects and technicians themselves make videos thoroughly explaining the nodes and showing practical applications for the more esoteric techniques.
Personally I feel it's a waste of their time to try to make actual surface presets, for the above reasons. And I think they do, too, considering the very few we actually have. I think the intent from the beginning was to offer a few examples, from which to learn.
While it may be annoying, if I have to spend a whole day searching for an answer to how to do something, I'm going to remember it better for next time, and every time I've had to do so I've learned more than just what I was looking for.
I'm not saying they should have the attitude, here's the software, deal with it, but there's really only so much we should expect them to do for us. I for one never expected any 3D software manufacturer to lay it out for me - just offer a product that works as advertised.

colkai
06-11-2008, 02:20 AM
Personally, I'd rather see NT's designers, architects and technicians themselves make videos thoroughly explaining the nodes and showing practical applications for the more esoteric techniques.
:agree:
Some good videos showing how to make use of nodes beyond the "simple" methods would be great. Not just for surfacing, but how to use them efficiently to enhance the scene / model by controlling other factors too.

I'd rather have good examples showing me how to build a surface / node setup than a preset which leaves me still wondering why each piece is used and it's effect on the overall result.

archijam
06-11-2008, 04:51 AM
I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

Such 'presets are heresy' concepts are elitist, and alienating for new users.

IMI - I take your point on SSS shaders being scale dependant. But a brick wall? PLEASE give me one decent brick preset that I can adapt to my own situation! Especially if I were a character artist, or someone not intent on becoming an arch-viz master, but just trying to get a decent test render.

If you think this (http://newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59306&d=1212133931) is preferable to this (http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/editions/architecture/materiallib_e.php?cat=1) (i exaggerate a little to make my point), I'd love to hear your reasoning.

Matt
06-11-2008, 06:31 AM
Not quite ready?...that site hasnt been updated since October '07 :stumped:

There is a BIG update coming! Which will be very nice indeed! :D

COBRASoft
06-11-2008, 09:30 AM
Can someone give us a preview of this big update?

Also, I think the biggest problem is not only the presets (node or old fashioned). The biggest problem is the hires-textures and how to use those textures (add some rust, carves, cuts, ...). I can make a very nice picture of a wall or a street with my Canon 350D, but that picture won't be tileable/useable, right? So, some examples of this would be handy aswell :)

Captain Obvious
06-11-2008, 09:48 AM
If you think this (http://newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59306&d=1212133931) is preferable to this (http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/editions/architecture/materiallib_e.php?cat=1) (i exaggerate a little to make my point), I'd love to hear your reasoning.
Why not just leave the presetmaking to third parties?

IMI
06-11-2008, 03:40 PM
I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

Such 'presets are heresy' concepts are elitist, and alienating for new users.

IMI - I take your point on SSS shaders being scale dependant. But a brick wall? PLEASE give me one decent brick preset that I can adapt to my own situation! Especially if I were a character artist, or someone not intent on becoming an arch-viz master, but just trying to get a decent test render.

If you think this (http://newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59306&d=1212133931) is preferable to this (http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/editions/architecture/materiallib_e.php?cat=1) (i exaggerate a little to make my point), I'd love to hear your reasoning.


Well, I don't know. I'm really not into the idea of getting into an argument about it. :)
I did mention simple primitive shapes, and yes, I imagine some good brick wall and wall and flooring presets might be useful.
But at the same time, those are easy enough to do on one's own. Maybe though you do have a point about new users. I don't remember ever having trouble figuring out procedurals for things such as walls and floors and rocks and other relatively simple shapes, so maybe I'm not considering it doesn't come so easily to some people as it did for me. I first learned how to deal with procedurals with Vue d'Esprit 2, which was quite a while ago.
I think it's a bit of a stretch though to say the new users might feel alienated. I would hope anybody buying into an app like LW would be prepared that there's going to be a certain learning curve.
Could be it's just me though - I really can't bring myself to use presets - I just think it's more interesting to come up with my own. Even when I first started with LW, I checked out the presets and discarded them just as quickly, after learning from them what was going on.

No, I agree with Captain Obvious, that there are plenty of people making presets out there for those who want them. At the same time, Newtek could create an entire branch of paid preset developers for LW, and I wouldn't complain about it. :)

archijam
06-11-2008, 03:50 PM
I agree (not to argue). That's why we'll just have to disagree :)

I remember finding just the rust effect I needed from a LW preset once, but I wish I could say they had been more useful, other than picking apart to understand procedurals, and more specifically I learned by picking apart Exception's texture 'presets' ..

Actually here's the project, I was quite happy with it at the time, but now the water looks more than a little copper coloured ;) ...