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meshpig
05-23-2008, 02:10 AM
Hi

After a few months of thinking I had a system problem, (intermittent but frequent freezes) I took my 24" iMac to the local reseller's garage.

Big mistake; they mucked around for 2 weeks and inconclusively told me it was the non Apple RAM. Being a not very happy camper, because the freezes still occurred after replacing the RAM, I got onto Apple proper.

Rule 1. With any suspected Hardware problem get onto Apple Pty. Ltd. first and log the problem in. They will also deal with the reseller's tech support as well.

So, it ends up back at the same reseller but at a different location and I insisted I made it freeze in front of the technician. Like at the other joint they just dismissed it as a software problem and thought I was talking out my seminal vesicle.

So, this time, with Apple breathing down their neck they bothered to run the Apple Diagnostic on a 15 hour loop and bingo. Not surprisingly, it crashed the test and Apple accepted with no fuss that it was a manufacturing defect.

-It's way out of warranty. Apple rang me back ten minutes later and said fine no problem, we'll install a new logic board... which is worth more than the resale value of the machine.

m

Jim M
05-23-2008, 02:32 AM
The reason we buy Macs!

For dodgy hardware?

Lmao...

brian.coates
05-23-2008, 03:33 AM
This is Apple Australia we're talking about right?

Usually if it's out of warranty they just show you the door. That reseller must have really ruffled the wrong feathers.

meshpig
05-23-2008, 04:48 AM
For dodgy hardware?

Lmao...

Yeah, apparently.

meshpig
05-23-2008, 04:59 AM
This is Apple Australia we're talking about right?

Usually if it's out of warranty they just show you the door. That reseller must have really ruffled the wrong feathers.

Well, if you are familiar with Sydney that particular joint was on the outskirts of the Eastern Suburbs @ Rushcutters Bay, so you might expect some shenanigans to begin with.

That's why I say get it logged with Apple first. Or maybe play dumb to the reseller then get Apple onto it because they were more than interested to know how the reseller had performed and then give then the appropriate amount of heat.


m

meshpig
05-23-2008, 05:14 AM
I thought it was to get the previous generation video cards with dodgy drivers?

Oh oh, what's this then?

ASUS P5WDG2 WS Pro, Core2Duo [email protected], 4Gb XMS2 DDR2-1066 RAM, GeForce 8800GTS 640Mb, 10k WD Raptor RAID 0, Vista Ultimate x86/x64

- A reminder that underneath that dopey OS you have something, that's if it doesn't catch fire?


m:argue:

Jim M
05-23-2008, 05:25 AM
Oh oh, what's this then?

A PC made by apple

eblu
05-23-2008, 05:37 AM
good goin mesh!

Iain
05-23-2008, 05:37 AM
Oh oh, what's this then?

ASUS P5WDG2 WS Pro, Core2Duo [email protected], 4Gb XMS2 DDR2-1066 RAM, GeForce 8800GTS 640Mb, 10k WD Raptor RAID 0, Vista Ultimate x86/x64

- A reminder that underneath that dopey OS you have something, that's if it doesn't catch fire?



Easy tiger, did someone just call yo momma a ho?

meshpig
05-23-2008, 06:09 AM
Easy tiger, did someone just call yo momma a ho?

Hell no! Just experiencing the sheer purchasing power of a semi brand allegiance type situation and rattling on. I'm a little enthusiastic but what the...?

Better they pay than me!

m

meshpig
05-23-2008, 06:15 AM
...

meshpig
05-23-2008, 06:16 AM
good goin mesh!

Thanks eblu,

Got to stir the pot occasionally.

m

LW_Will
05-23-2008, 06:37 AM
Um... you guys have been using PCs for so long you don't remember the idea let alone know it when you see it.

It is called "Customer Service"... the repair people didn't have it, the Apple people did.
No obligation, yet, they fixed the system.

Yeah... that's dodgy hardware and incompatibilities.

How far would you get with Dell or HP?

Steamthrower
05-23-2008, 06:57 AM
How far would you get with Dell or HP?

"Eh..hi dis eez Joe. I'm here to hep you. Wat eez your probalem dis day? Wat? Wat eez a motherborg? De motherborg eez fwied? Why eez you motherborg fwied? Must talk mine supavisa! Must talk mine supavisa! Supavisa!"

archijam
05-23-2008, 07:06 AM
Supervisor! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vf0rEMjw9I) Great song.

meshpig
05-23-2008, 07:32 AM
"Eh..hi dis eez Joe. I'm here to hep you. Wat eez your probalem dis day? Wat? Wat eez a motherborg? De motherborg eez fwied? Why eez you motherborg fwied? Must talk mine supavisa! Must talk mine supavisa! Supavisa!"

Freakin love it!

robewil
05-23-2008, 10:20 AM
How far would you get with Dell or HP?

My story may or may not be a typical one so take it as you want.

My boss bought a 2 year old Dell from Ebay for about $100. When we received the machine, it worked for about a half hour and conked out and would not even turn back on. The Ebay seller accepted no responsibility so we called Dell for service since the computer was under a 3 year warranty. The next day, a Dell service man came and could not fix the machine. He called headquarters and explained the situation. He handed the phone to me and the Dell representative explained that since the technician couldn't fix it and the model was no longer made by Dell, Dell would ship us a brand new up to date model. I couldn't believe it. Sure enough on the very next day, we received a brand new Dell that was faster, had more RAM, and had a larger hard drive.

So in the end, my boss paid about a hundred bucks for a brand new Dell. It's been working great for us for the past two years and I cannot help but smile to myself every time I use it.

Jim_C
05-23-2008, 11:14 AM
How far would you get with Dell or HP?

All the experiences I have had with Dell customer service over the last 2 years have been exemplary.

Maybe I am lucky, but they have always been prompt, professional and knowledgeable with me.

LW_Will
05-23-2008, 10:50 PM
Um, yeah, but I think it was more the fault of the seller than the great work of the Dell people. The Dell people were fulfilling the 3 year warrenty, which is their obligation. I was saying the the SERVICE comes in when they did NOT have a warranty in effect.

Good for Dell, just not as good as Apple. ;-)

sammael
05-23-2008, 11:34 PM
People seem to buy Mac's more as some sort of status symbol in my experience... a 'hip' designer would never own a PC just on principle. Your buying a designer computer with an inflated price tag. Realy they do the same job but pc's are more widely supported by software developers and you can build your own for next to nothing. Theres no argueing with Mac fanatics though... the general windows pc is a vastly inferior product... what a wank. Customer support... hmmm they would'nt replace my stupid ipod when the screen stopped working.

parm
05-24-2008, 01:16 AM
pc's are more widely supported by software developers

Yes. That's definitely a tick in favour of the windows platform.


you can build your own for next to nothing

You might as well build your own. Because there's nothing off the peg in pc world, that would look any better.

meshpig
05-24-2008, 04:42 AM
People seem to buy Mac's more as some sort of status symbol in my experience... a 'hip' designer would never own a PC just on principle. Your buying a designer computer with an inflated price tag.

The price tag isn't that inflated for what you get.

Yes, you are buying a designer computer but what's wrong with that?

Status symbol? Conversely, do you really want to belong to the "majority" that desperately?

m

sammael
05-24-2008, 06:25 AM
The price tag isn't that inflated for what you get.

Yes, you are buying a designer computer but what's wrong with that?


Relatively speaking the price is quite high if you want a high end Mac. Nothing wrong with a designer computer either its the superior attitude that goes with the product despite it's shortcomings that sometimes bothers me. Mac's are a great machine one particular advantage being the software that comes as standard which is at least of useable quality, if I only wanted to use a few specific design packages, do a bit of editing and couldn't care less about games I would probably consider buying one myself.



Status symbol? Conversely, do you really want to belong to the "majority" that desperately?


I build my own systems using quality components and I get a good deal of satisfaction in doing so, my pc is quite unique... not so 'run o the mill' as your standard G5. I like to play games and I like the huge variety of software available for PC's.
For the record I have never had a problem with any of the major PC hardware manufacturers I have dealt with in the past either. I used to work at a distributor here in Melbourne dealing with a vast range of brands, generally support from most of them was quite reasonable with a few minor exceptions.

Anyway I don't want to start up the classic time old argument, each for their own hey? ;)
Peace!

Steamthrower
05-24-2008, 07:19 AM
the general windows pc is a vastly inferior product...

I agree. The general Windows PC is a vastly inferior product. :devil:

sammael
05-24-2008, 07:33 AM
That's right! I heard somewhere Mac's are good for editing stuff. I bet that session punished the old MacBook a bit.

Steamthrower
05-24-2008, 08:21 AM
Man, it killed it. Smoke, sparks, acrid smell, the lot. Pulling up a 4k frame in Motion is like committing suicide. But hey, I have a nice minimalist trackpad!

eblu
05-24-2008, 09:38 AM
People seem to buy Mac's more as some sort of status symbol in my experience... a 'hip' designer would never own a PC just on principle. Your buying a designer computer with an inflated price tag. Realy they do the same job but pc's are more widely supported by software developers and you can build your own for next to nothing. Theres no argueing with Mac fanatics though... the general windows pc is a vastly inferior product... what a wank. Customer support... hmmm they would'nt replace my stupid ipod when the screen stopped working.

I can't believe what I'm hearing! j/k I hear this stuff all the time, and I take issue with several bits in there.

1. macs cost LESS than comparably outfitted PCs. you just think its costs more because Apple only Makes High end Machines (with those perceived high price tags) with Quality parts, etc. This lets them buy in bulk (ie: they get the parts cheaper) that Dell would never dare to. Dell buys whatever is available, and crams it in. just try to order two machines with the same internal parts from dell, its impossible. I know, I tried. Two machines off the assembly line Promised to me to have been assembled by the same person, at the same time, with all of exactly the same components.

guess what. Not one individual part, hard drive Dvd-r, graphics card, Ram... not one of them was from the same manufacturer. Oh, their support person was VERY pleasant, as Both machines, brand new, displayed wildly different kinds of failures. That support person repeatedly told us that every part in each machine which we were looking at was from the same manufacturer, and that the guy who assembled them was very careful to do things just as we asked. That was a bold faced lie, by the way. And while my experience with dell tech support was not a bad one, they didn't fix any of the problems (of which there were many), they didn't follow through on their promise to build the machines out of the same parts, they didn't return the machines, and why? because they felt that the two machines were working within reasonable tolerances. Currently these two machine are holding doors open. they have been replaced with compaqs, which have their own oddities that can be tolerated.

2. a hip designer would never own a PC? That MAY have been true in 1992, today Hip designers come in all shapes and sizes, with different needs and workflows.

3. PC software more widely supported? Heh, if that WAS true, its not anymore. Apple had a few rough years where they didn't have the variety of software vendors that was available on the pc, but in my Experience that vast library of software that wasn't availible... it was by and large, all crap. I don't buy crap if I can avoid it, and I'm sure you'd agree with me there. But now, Apple has excellent software options in every category, and the list of software is growing, in all but one market... video games. You have me there, goofing off is just not as easy on a mac. I'll have to find a way to cope somehow.

Lightwolf
05-24-2008, 10:03 AM
1. macs cost LESS than comparably outfitted PCs.
This is true for some, but not all of the product line. It is also in most cases just plain impossible to find a compareable Mac for certain PCs. Mainly for 90% of the PCs being sold actually. Products compareable to Macs are just niche products in the PC world to start with (i.e. notebook parts in a small case -> mini, all-in-one PCs partially based on notebook parts -> iMac, quad core high end workstation -> Mac Pro).
If what Apple offers it what you want... it can be cheaper. If they don't offer it to start with ... it surely ain't cheaper then.

Cheers,
Mike

LazyCoder
05-24-2008, 12:17 PM
And quit basing the companies like Dell and HP (well actually, I don't care about HP, go nuts!) I've owned 1 dell, 1 alienware, and 1 of my own design.

When I had problems with my Dell (video card burned out after 3 years of loyal service), Dell replaced the faulty card, all expenses paid (by them), regardless of the language the tech guy spoke. When I had trouble with my alienware PC (We figured it out that it was Farstone's Virtual Drive software that was mucking up the works), the guy helped me fix my problem very quickly, and for free.

I personally do not own a Mac, but at my school there are many Mac machines there (2 of which are somewhat new G5 machines that are on par with my laptop, except for the video card). I'll admit that the Mac does seem to perform at the same level as my laptop. But one things for sure, Macs certainly don't have as many games as PC's (and very few of which are newer games such as Crysis). If I spend a ton of dough on building a nice computer, I'm gonna wanna play games on it too!

Apart from all that, from what I can tell, the only reason why Macs don't crash as much as PCs (and even THAT is a small ratio in my case), is because they have not been exposed to the same software as PCs (such as third party freeware stuff), and therefore have less software to make it crash!

I'll probably never own a Mac. Their sleazy commercials aren't helping much either (I love the one where the Mac is made out to be more for games than the spread-sheet pushing PC).

avkills
05-24-2008, 01:22 PM
Those believing that Apple use quality parts compared to other pre-fab manufacturers, really need to think again.

Meh; Apple cases seem to be a lot nicer than what you can find in BYO or Dell/HP/whoever. The G5 and MacPros are very clean inside. Dell uses modified tubberware containers.

Apple ceased to use "quality" parts when they decided on using x86 hardware. :p Not a bad idea considering how nice it is to be able to run Windows now on Mac hardware.

For any professional work; the hardware should be secondary to what your software needs are.

-mark

Captain Obvious
05-24-2008, 03:46 PM
Macs run Shake.

Do you need more reasons?

Sekhar
05-24-2008, 04:04 PM
And quit basing the companies like Dell and HP (well actually, I don't care about HP, go nuts!)

Completely agree on Dell at least - these folks have a brand to protect.

Specifically, for Dell, benchmarks tend to be higher for similar HW vs. stuff from other vendors and DYI. E.g., I have an Precision 390 with quad core and and all the benchmarks I saw (including some DYI numbers on forums) put this one over others. Also, it's usually very hard to make the thing quiet if you build yourself - my Dell is unbelievably quiet.

sammael
05-24-2008, 09:24 PM
I can't believe what I'm hearing! j/k I hear this stuff all the time, and I take issue with several bits in there.

1. macs cost LESS than comparably outfitted PCs. you just think its costs more because Apple only Makes High end Machines (with those perceived high price tags) with Quality parts, etc. This lets them buy in bulk (ie: they get the parts cheaper) that Dell would never dare to. Dell buys whatever is available, and crams it in. just try to order two machines with the same internal parts from dell, its impossible. I know, I tried. Two machines off the assembly line Promised to me to have been assembled by the same person, at the same time, with all of exactly the same components.

Nup that is untrue you can build a high end pc for a lot cheaper than a mac and with better/faster components.
I have never bought a dell so that may well be the case, I dont know.



2. a hip designer would never own a PC? That MAY have been true in 1992, today Hip designers come in all shapes and sizes, with different needs and workflows.

Those people from 92 still have the same attitude. And mac ownership still seems to be based more on coolness and image rather than any sort of practicality.



3. PC software more widely supported? Heh, if that WAS true, its not anymore. Apple had a few rough years where they didn't have the variety of software vendors that was available on the pc, but in my Experience that vast library of software that wasn't availible... it was by and large, all crap. I don't buy crap if I can avoid it, and I'm sure you'd agree with me there. But now, Apple has excellent software options in every category, and the list of software is growing, in all but one market... video games. You have me there, goofing off is just not as easy on a mac. I'll have to find a way to cope somehow.
Yeah crappy old XSI, crappy old zbrush (oh wait you can get zbrush.... 2), a good portion of LW plugins and the list of crap goes on. Goofing off is just as easy on a mac, you just can't play games.

Rumadon
05-24-2008, 10:34 PM
You can't really compare the Macs to the PC's, they're not even in the same industry. There's no argument to it, they are both just as good.. in their own ways. And no matter what the computer, it's gonna crash some time. I have a PC running at a pentium 4 processor(2.8GHZ), 512mb ram, and it suits my needs for gaming mainly, and secondly as a web developement test server. But I'm certain the the macbook performs just as well. PC's are more customizable, but mac's beat PCs on stylish casing. Overall they both tie.

-Daniel

parm
05-25-2008, 12:05 AM
Nup that is untrue you can build a high end pc for a lot cheaper than a mac and with better/faster components.


Hmm. Possibly.

A lot cheaper. Seems somehow doubtful to me. A cursory look at the retail cost of components. Especially the Quad core Xeons (http://computers.pricegrabber.com/processors-unboxed-oem/m/63047126/). Says that the Mac Pros are a pretty good deal. Not that there's much point making a tax deductible item, as cheap as possible.

I'd be interested in seeing your shopping list for; Better than the 8 core 3.2 GHz Mac Pro.

It's accepted. That building your own, makes it possible to select ultimate, components. Which is fine for those inclined to do that. Not a practical option though, if you want OS X.


People seem to buy Mac's more as some sort of status symbol in my experience...

Is that experience or assumption?

Because, as status symbols. Computers are right up there with Estwing hammers, and Veritas smoothing planes.

People who go for status symbols. Usually put their money in, something a bit more garish, slightly vulgar and certainly ostentatious. Like a jewel encrusted watch, for example. Apple design, by contrast, is stylishly understated. Which for me at least, makes their computers acceptable in a domestic environment.

rakker16mm
05-25-2008, 12:43 AM
Macs run Shake.

Do you need more reasons?

Shake may be history.... Sorry to say it though It's still great software though.


OTOH that usually means something better is about to be released :D :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

meshpig
05-25-2008, 05:42 AM
Because, as status symbols. Computers are right up there with Estwing hammers, and Veritas smoothing planes.

People who go for status symbols. Usually put their money in, something a bit more garish, slightly vulgar and certainly ostentatious. Like a jewel encrusted watch, for example. Apple design, by contrast, is stylishly understated. Which for me at least, makes their computers acceptable in a domestic environment.


Well said!

3dworks
05-25-2008, 06:38 AM
...
There's no decent sculpting software available for OSX currently either. And no, as much as I like modo/Silo, their sculpting isn't comparable to the applications that do this in a specialized fashion.
...



never heard of zbrush?

markus

Steamthrower
05-25-2008, 07:51 AM
3D Coat is coming to Mac. Andrew emailed me about a month ago and said he was planning on releasing it (at least beta) in 3 months.

Also, the rumor is that Apple is planning on releasing the new compositor (which will be based on Motion) this year (codenamed Phenomenon). I'm guessing it will be at SIGGRAPH.

Both of those seals the deal for me.

Captain Obvious
05-25-2008, 09:47 AM
Shake may be history.... Sorry to say it though It's still great software though.


OTOH that usually means something better is about to be released :D :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I have wet dreams about a node-based compositing application with full GPU-acceleration and some other neat things borrowed from Motion and Color and what have you.

Lightwolf
05-25-2008, 09:49 AM
I have wet dreams about a node-based compositing application with full GPU-acceleration and some other neat things borrowed from Motion and Color and what have you.
Clean bedsheets :D

Cheers,
Mike

Jim_C
05-25-2008, 10:07 AM
Because, as status symbols. Computers are right up there with Estwing hammers, and Veritas smoothing planes.

People who go for status symbols. Usually put their money in, something a bit more garish, slightly vulgar and certainly ostentatious. Like a jewel encrusted watch, for example. Apple design, by contrast, is stylishly understated. Which for me at least, makes their computers acceptable in a domestic environment.

I would have to disagree on this one a bit.

Performing Arts culture, X-Games sport culture, surfing culture, pro beach volleyball culture, trust-fund'afarian culture, these are 5 social cultures I am very familar with and all of them socially place a HUGE emphasis on Macs as the 'cool toy of choice'.

BigHache
05-26-2008, 09:31 AM
I like my Mac, and I like my PC. For me Mac = Final Cut Pro, PC = Lightwave.

toby
05-26-2008, 12:58 PM
I would have to disagree on this one a bit.

Performing Arts culture, X-Games sport culture, surfing culture, pro beach volleyball culture, trust-fund'afarian culture, these are 5 social cultures I am very familar with and all of them socially place a HUGE emphasis on Macs as the 'cool toy of choice'.
A stereotype that's as accurate as the PC nerd on the Mac ads, or that you're all gaming nerds with neon machines and covered with pimples.

Just because some people you assume are just "trendy" or wholly image-conscious use macintosh, you assume that it's the only reason anyone uses a mac? Is that a logical deduction?

Could it be that these people are interested in doing their particular hobbies instead of re-installing their system, updating Norton and browsing websites for the latest motherboard?

If there's one thing I've noticed it's that pro-PC people actually ENJOY these things, get satisfaction out of trouble-shooting and building their own systems - then talk s*** about anyone who doesn't. This may not include you Jim, but it certainly includes a few people on this forum, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

rakker16mm
05-26-2008, 01:33 PM
I don't mind that people have a preference for one platform over the other. I don't even mind those that hate one platform or the other. It makes no difference to me, but what does bother me is when people start insulting other people for their choice of platform. That is just plain rude and further more it makes no sense what so ever.

Lightwolf
05-26-2008, 03:35 PM
...get satisfaction out of trouble-shooting and building their own systems...
To be quite honest, yes, I love trouble-shooting. Heck, 99% of my job is trouble shooting... the director/producer has a problem, I help solve it ;)

System building is just like coding your own tools... some like to do it and some don't. And there's cases where it makes sense and where it doesn't. The same as deciding on purchasing a plugin or coding it on your own (if you can).

Cheers,
Mike

toby
05-26-2008, 03:45 PM
Yes, pardon me Mike, and others, I should've said "Mac-haters" instead of "pro-PC", loving windows or system building doesn't require you to be a hater.

Lightwolf
05-26-2008, 03:49 PM
Yes, pardon me Mike, and others, I should've said "Mac-haters" instead of "pro-PC", loving windows or system building doesn't require you to be a hater.
No reason to excuse yourself... I was only trying to make a point.
Since I've lost the Amiga I'm fairly un-emotional about the whole issue... as long as the argument remains rational (Hey, yours almost was, but I do know - few - people that enjoy hacking their Macs as well ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

rakker16mm
05-26-2008, 03:51 PM
I have wet dreams about a node-based compositing application with full GPU-acceleration and some other neat things borrowed from Motion and Color and what have you.

This is just pure speculation on my part but I think Shake may just get incorporated in to the FC Studio like other apps in FC Studio did before it. At the same time a more robust application will take its place as a professional stand alone solution.

I don't think any one is going to be getting left out in the cold.

sammael
05-27-2008, 02:07 AM
Hmm. Possibly.

A lot cheaper. Seems somehow doubtful to me. A cursory look at the retail cost of components. Especially the Quad core Xeons (http://computers.pricegrabber.com/processors-unboxed-oem/m/63047126/). Says that the Mac Pros are a pretty good deal. Not that there's much point making a tax deductible item, as cheap as possible.

I'd be interested in seeing your shopping list for; Better than the 8 core 3.2 GHz Mac Pro.

It's accepted. That building your own, makes it possible to select ultimate, components. Which is fine for those inclined to do that. Not a practical option though, if you want OS X.


Ok this is based on the stock standard Mac Pro available here in Aus vs a PC version with quality components of my choosing slightly better in some most areas. I am assuming that the Mac Pro does not ship with a monitor. All based on Australian Dollars.
I do see that for some some reason the same mac pro America is about $1200 cheaper than it is in Aus but I am assuming the price difference on general PC components is about the same.

Mac Pro -
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon “Harpertown” processors
2GB memory (800MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT graphics with 256MB memory
320GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive1
16x double-layer SuperDrive

Total: A$ 3,999.00


My equivalent PC rig -
TYAN Tempest i5400PW- S5397 - $811.90
http://www.tyan.com/product_board_spec.aspx?pid=560

Intel Quad-Core Xeon X3350 2.66 GHz, FSB 1333MHz, 2x6MB L2 Cache, Socket LGA775 CPU - $392.95 x 2 = $786

Kingston 2GB ECC 240-pin DIMM Kit (2x 1GB) Speed: DDR2-800 / PC2-6400 - $140

Western Digital Raptor 300GB SATA Drive, 10000RPM, 16M Cache (WD3000GLFS) - $368.60

Pioneer DVR-115DBK - 20x DVD+/-R/RW Dual Layer DVD Burner, IDE - OEM Black (DVR-115DBK) - $42

EVGA GF 9800GTX PCI-E 2.0 512MB DDR3 256-bit, 675/2200MHz, Dual Dual-Link DVI, HDTV, Fan, HDCP E-9800GTX-E3 - $364

Lets say around $500 for a good case with power supply

nice Keyboard / Mouse about $150

So total = around A$3162

Edit: oops and add oem vista to that as well... no time to research it with the 5min edit rule.

This is a top of the line Tyan board capable of running 128GB of memory. A lesser board would push the price lower.
The other factor is that these prices are based on a quick price check on any random Austrailian site that offered the specific hardware I was looking for, so we can assume that it would be possible to search arround for a better price as well or perhaps better components and still keep the price below that of the Mac.





Is that experience or assumption?

Because, as status symbols. Computers are right up there with Estwing hammers, and Veritas smoothing planes.

People who go for status symbols. Usually put their money in, something a bit more garish, slightly vulgar and certainly ostentatious. Like a jewel encrusted watch, for example. Apple design, by contrast, is stylishly understated. Which for me at least, makes their computers acceptable in a domestic environment.

Probably more assumption to be honest, but a fair portion of the Mac users I have met are very snobbish in favour of Mac's particularly long time users, the moment they see windows installed on my computer they write it off as an incapable piece of rubbish. I am not trying to make a steriotypical assumption about Mac users but a few in particular that I know can be infuriating.
Anyway I mean no offence, each for their own stick to what you prefer. :)

sammael
05-27-2008, 02:22 AM
I think I paid $289 for vista ultimate oem so that puts the price up a bit plus I would have to pay shipping on some of my pc components... anyway.

sammael
05-27-2008, 03:05 AM
I realise I have made a mistake with the cpu spec the price for a 2.8 xeon is more like $560 a piece so $1120 for both.
But for arguements sake lets offset the price on the Mac equivalent graphics card and hard disk.
X2600XT - $139
320gb seagate - $88

Captain Obvious
05-27-2008, 04:00 AM
Probably more assumption to be honest, but a fair portion of the Mac users I have met are very snobbish in favour of Mac's particularly long time users, the moment they see windows installed on my computer they write it off as an incapable piece of rubbish. I am not trying to make a steriotypical assumption about Mac users but a few in particular that I know can be infuriating.
Anyway I mean no offence, each for their own stick to what you prefer. :)
Oh, definitely, but the percentage of Mac users who do that is probably quite similar to the percentage of Windows users who do the same thing when they see a computer running Mac OS X or Linux or what have you...

meshpig
05-27-2008, 04:34 AM
I think I paid $289 for vista ultimate oem so that puts the price up a bit plus I would have to pay shipping on some of my pc components... anyway.

Plus the one copy/one machine rule.

meshpig
05-27-2008, 04:51 AM
Oh, definitely, but the percentage of Mac users who do that is probably quite similar to the percentage of Windows users who do the same thing when they see a computer running Mac OS X or Linux or what have you...

Yeah, but when you run windows on bootcamp and it's more or less alongside OSX, windows does look like some sort of cheap software you've installed on your phone.

I mean after you build a dream PC, you still have to run bloody windows!

... hate to bring up the car analogy but 22 Bose speakers and some heavy lifting cams don't make a driver.

m

Lightwolf
05-27-2008, 05:43 AM
... hate to bring up the car analogy but 22 Bose speakers and some heavy lifting cams don't make a driver.

As in: an OS doesn't make your work better? An OS doesn't make you a better user or more knowledgeable? :stumped:
We can agree on that :D

Cheers,
Mike

meshpig
05-27-2008, 06:12 AM
As in: an OS doesn't make your work better? An OS doesn't make you a better user or more knowledgeable? :stumped:
We can agree on that :D

Cheers,
Mike

You mean a better OS yields a mechanical advantage to the user? Agreed!

-"Blessed are the sheep, for they shall be slaughtered". Black Adder (Rowan Atkinson).

m:devil:

Lightwolf
05-27-2008, 06:28 AM
You mean a better OS yields a mechanical advantage to the user? Agreed!


... hate to bring up the car analogy but 22 Bose speakers and some heavy lifting cams don't make a driver.

Make up your mind ;)

Cheers,
Mike

sammael
05-27-2008, 06:59 AM
Oh, definitely, but the percentage of Mac users who do that is probably quite similar to the percentage of Windows users who do the same thing when they see a computer running Mac OS X or Linux or what have you...

You are right of course, perhaps I have just been scarred by it due to a few more extreme cases from the Mac camp.

sammael
05-27-2008, 07:06 AM
Yeah, but when you run windows on bootcamp and it's more or less alongside OSX, windows does look like some sort of cheap software you've installed on your phone.

I mean after you build a dream PC, you still have to run bloody windows!

... hate to bring up the car analogy but 22 Bose speakers and some heavy lifting cams don't make a driver.

m

Hmm with XP I agree whole heartedly. But I think Vista has its own charm these days once you disable some of the so called 'features'. I just don't feel as tacky working under Vista, in terms of stability it has been quite rock solid for me as well.

I find those diehard XP fans just as disagreeable as Mac users! hehe sorry (joke)

meshpig
05-27-2008, 07:23 AM
Make up your mind ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Damn, I bought my first mac in 1990. I thought I already had?

I even remember the day we threw the Commodore 64 in the bin for Apple's Lisa.

m

sammael
05-27-2008, 07:28 AM
Damn, I bought my first mac in 1990. I thought I already had?

I even remember the day we threw the Commodore 64 in the bin for Apple's Lisa.

m

Were they before or after Apple IIe? now that was a funny computer.

meshpig
05-27-2008, 07:40 AM
Hmm with XP I agree whole heartedly. But I think Vista has its own charm these days once you disable some of the so called 'features'. I just don't feel as tacky working under Vista, in terms of stability it has been quite rock solid for me as well.

I find those diehard XP fans just as disagreeable as Mac users! hehe sorry (joke)

OK, now you're talking like a mac snob yourself: "Vista has its own charm"... you mean when you sit in front of this machine all day you also want it to somehow correlate, echo or mimic your thoughts, as it were?

Not just those of every 2 bit wanker who wants to open a spreadsheet on the morning train whilst answering perfunctory work calls with the other ear.

m

Steamthrower
05-27-2008, 07:41 AM
Should we go back to the car analogies?

A PC is like a rugged Ford F-350, with horsepower and upgraded headers and a winch, while a Mac is like a sleek Porsche Carrera GT with horsepower, but few available upgrades/accessories. You buy a PC to fool around with in the garage; you buy a Mac to use.

Sorry guys, couldn't resist. :D

sammael
05-27-2008, 07:47 AM
OK, now you're talking like a mac snob yourself: "Vista has its own charm"... you mean when you sit in front of this machine all day you also want it to somehow correlate, echo or mimic your thoughts, as it were?

Not just those of every 2 bit wanker who wants to open a spreadsheet on the morning train whilst answering perfunctory work calls with the other ear.

m

No I just mean it is not as intollerable as sitting in front of XP all day long, probably not so much like looking at "some sort of cheap software you've installed on your phone".

Captain Obvious
05-27-2008, 07:49 AM
You are right of course, perhaps I have just been scarred by it due to a few more extreme cases from the Mac camp.
If I had a penny for every time I've heard the equivalent of "Macs are for gays," I'd be a wealthier man. Not by a lot, of course, but slightly richer.

There are idiots on both side of the fence.

sammael
05-27-2008, 08:06 AM
No I just mean it is not as intollerable as sitting in front of XP all day long, probably not so much like looking at "some sort of cheap software you've installed on your phone".

Just to elaborate, there were quite a few occasions where XP simply stopped working properly or at all for me. In Vista this has not happened. As I understand it Mac OS is quite stable I think Vista has improved over XP lot in that sense.
In the visual sense the only thing I found extremly and unbearably tacky in XP was the green start button, never sat right with me and I'm glad I never have to see it again.

meshpig
05-27-2008, 08:11 AM
Were they before or after Apple IIe? now that was a funny computer.

Indeed but Lisa was way before that, steve jobs took a lot from there on exit to become mac.

Apple IIe, from memory, is where colour was introduced early 80's.

m

sammael
05-27-2008, 08:21 AM
Indeed but Lisa was way before that, steve jobs took a lot from there on exit to become mac.

Apple IIe, from memory, is where colour was introduced early 80's.

m

Wow those are even crazier than the apple 2e... almost reminds me of the Goodies computer.

LW_Will
05-27-2008, 09:05 AM
Remember, if we are making equivalent systems, for the PC side we need a HD based DV editor, basic sound editing, calendar, address book, web editor, some form of instant backup, different screens, a Unix system, a form of macro processor using scripting and simple programming, a C environment, a deployment packaging system... what am I forgetting? There is allot packed on those OS X discs...

Didn't get the Mac for the Aqua...

Lightwolf
05-27-2008, 09:11 AM
Remember, if we are making equivalent systems, for the PC side we need...
See, there you go. That's the problem with "equivalent systems" - if you take it the other way around: Quadcore machine with a 8800GT and 8 (up to 16GB) of Ram, widespread support of 64-bit apps and plenty of HD expansion for less than a grand. Show me a Mac that does that. If these are the criteria things look a lot different.

I.e. except for XCode the stuff in your list is fluff (as far as my needs are concerned) on my Mac (I'd rather have a decent Finder to be honest).

Cheers,
Mike

Steamthrower
05-27-2008, 09:29 AM
(I'd rather have a decent Finder to be honest).

Amen. Let iCal die in agony by the wayside...give me a Finder.

Captain Obvious
05-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Just to elaborate, there were quite a few occasions where XP simply stopped working properly or at all for me. In Vista this has not happened. As I understand it Mac OS is quite stable I think Vista has improved over XP lot in that sense.
Oh, definitely. I run 64-bit Vista "Ultimate" Edition on my PC, and it's very very smooth. Way fewer hickups than XP has.

As for the Finder, Apple posted a "for hire" advert a while ago, looking for people to help them improve "the notorious Finder."

toby
05-27-2008, 09:12 PM
No I just mean it is not as intollerable as sitting in front of XP all day long, probably not so much like looking at "some sort of cheap software you've installed on your phone".
Now you know how I've felt about windows since ferever! You've gotten used to riding in a mercedes, now that VW bug doesn't seem so comfortable ( doh! car analogy! )
I've tried to explain that to countless windows users, but clearly you have to see for yourself.
When I first started using OSX it looked and felt so candy-a**, like it was for pre-schoolers. When I got used to it, OS9 looked like used cardboard. It's all about perspective.

toby
05-27-2008, 09:16 PM
Oh, definitely. I run 64-bit Vista "Ultimate" Edition on my PC, and it's very very smooth. Way fewer hickups than XP has.

As for the Finder, Apple posted a "for hire" advert a while ago, looking for people to help them improve "the notorious Finder."
I'm assuming it's stuff like being able to enter paths in windows and modify files in open/save dialogues that people want added? Doesn't seem that hard - I'd rather have that than 'spotlight'

LW_Will
05-27-2008, 09:37 PM
The point of listing everything but Xcode that there is an expense to it... even if there are "bad" programs, they are mature and robust programs. You can dismiss iCal, iMovie and iTunes, bet they are full apps, not dreck like Outlook Express and the Microsoft Movie Maker.

Xcode is a package, if it were sold by Microsoft would cost at least an $A (an Alex, about $900us)... that and the Applescript and Folder Actions give amazing power to OS X... that which is not available for Windows.

meshpig
05-28-2008, 03:08 AM
Wow those are even crazier than the apple 2e... almost reminds me of the Goodies computer.

Yeah, that was a classic episode. Cop this though...

59246

m

Lightwolf
05-28-2008, 03:26 AM
I'm assuming it's stuff like being able to enter paths in windows and modify files in open/save dialogues that people want added? Doesn't seem that hard - I'd rather have that than 'spotlight'
Plus file name completion, the nice full path displayed in Vista which allows you to navigate to any (sub-!) component of it quickly, creating shortcuts to apps with command line parameters... plenty of small stuff.

And no annoying dock that gets in the way ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
05-28-2008, 03:30 AM
You can dismiss iCal, iMovie and iTunes, bet they are full apps, not dreck like Outlook Express and the Microsoft Movie Maker.

Then again, I neither use iTunes nor Outlook ... so in both cases that development effort is wasted).

Xcode is a package, if it were sold by Microsoft would cost at least an $A (an Alex, about $900us)... that and the Applescript and Folder Actions give amazing power to OS X... that which is not available for Windows.
No Applescript but WSH... and you do get free software development tools from MS, heck, even a completely free coding environment for games. Plus, the (free) MS compiler is generally faster and produces faster code as well.

Cheers,
Mike