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View Full Version : All right then, no more complaining...



rakker16mm
05-14-2008, 08:42 PM
about NewTek's CA tools. Windsor McCay did THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcSp2ej2S00) with out any software at all. No advanced camera, no scene editor, no nothing. Just his imagination, artistic ability all combined with plenty time and effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcSp2ej2S00

Nicolas Jordan
05-14-2008, 09:11 PM
Wow! I'm not sure if showing off this new advanced CA technology is against the beta NDA or not though. :lightwave

rakker16mm
05-14-2008, 10:10 PM
And this one even has fluid dynamics and hypervoxels :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN-KdPBhyjc&feature=related

Hopper
05-14-2008, 10:27 PM
Oh c'mon... that was obviously Blender. It was just rendered with the "holy crap that's old" shader.

pooby
05-15-2008, 01:47 AM
Beware a lack of humour in my post-


about NewTek's CA tools. Windsor McCay did THIS with out any software at all. No advanced camera, no scene editor, no nothing. Just his imagination, artistic ability all combined with plenty time and effort.


Yeah. No limitations either.. You can draw whatever you like.

The goal in CG is to have that level of freedom

In CG you have 3Dimensional characters, so, unless you want to take the 2D approach and make a model for each frame, ( in which case you do have full control. But you'd spend the rest of your life doing a short film) then you are DEFORMING the character over time .

The Freedom to do this however you like is in direct relation to the quality of the tools you have to deform your character over time

LW's Rigging and deformation tools are very limiting. So, don't think that, just because we have 'advanced' software, then we should be able to do what Winsor McCay can do.

to take it to its extreme- If I showed a movie of some fluids, I wouldn't expect anyone to be amazed that all I used was some water and a bucket and a cheap video camera to achieve that fluid effect. It would be a much more appropriate method of achieving a fluid splash than using software.

rakker16mm
05-15-2008, 09:48 AM
Pooby,

Those are valid points, about comparing 2D and CG tool sets, but the thing you have to remember is that Winsor McCay did this almost 100 years ago when there were very few people who even understood how animation worked. However I don't believe that people complaining about NewTek's tool set would get any more done using the tools Winsor McCay had :D

The lesson of Winsor McCay is not what you can do with a pencil, but what you can do with your imagination. He wasn't the first animator but he did set a benchmark for every one that followed. He didn't allow himself to be limited by the tools and conventions of the day. When confronted with a problem he didn't complain to the Vitagraph people.

I have seen you do some things with water simulations that went far beyond what the tools were designed to do. You didn't stop at the description of the tool. Winsor McCay didn't stop at the description of pen and ink. That is the inventive spirit I am talking about.

In contrast there are so many people that stop at the first roadblock and complain "these pencils are limiting, they don't stay as sharp as that other brand. The X -brand pencil company people have come up with automatic self sharpening pencils, but ours still require that we walk across the room to the sharpen them. This pencil company is doomed"

I don't know what Winsor McCay would have thought of CG, but I doubt he would let any tool be the limiting factor in his creativity. Yes there are obstacles and things that just seem beyond what the technology can do but it is our imaginations that are real limiting factor.

AbnRanger
05-15-2008, 11:54 PM
Pooby,

Those are valid points, about comparing 2D and CG tool sets, but the thing you have to remember is that Winsor McCay did this almost 100 years ago when there were very few people who even understood how animation worked. However I don't believe that people complaining about NewTek's tool set would get any more done using the tools Winsor McCay had :D

The lesson of Winsor McCay is not what you can do with a pencil, but what you can do with your imagination. He wasn't the first animator but he did set a benchmark for every one that followed. He didn't allow himself to be limited by the tools and conventions of the day. When confronted with a problem he didn't complain to the Vitagraph people.

I have seen you do some things with water simulations that went far beyond what the tools were designed to do. You didn't stop at the description of the tool. Winsor McCay didn't stop at the description of pen and ink. That is the inventive spirit I am talking about.

In contrast there are so many people that stop at the first roadblock and complain "these pencils are limiting, they don't stay as sharp as that other brand. The X -brand pencil company people have come up with automatic self sharpening pencils, but ours still require that we walk across the room to the sharpen them. This pencil company is doomed"

I don't know what Winsor McCay would have thought of CG, but I doubt he would let any tool be the limiting factor in his creativity. Yes there are obstacles and things that just seem beyond what the technology can do but it is our imaginations that are real limiting factor.

If Windsor McKay had a self-sharpening pencil at his disposal, don't you think he'd USE IT instead of the one that required having to STOP WHAT YOU WERE DOING and sharpen the pencil, when he could easily use the best tool for the job and continue to keep plugging away?
All the improvements made in the software side are generally geared toward speeding up the tedious, time-consuming facets of the job, and offering more features/tools which generally facilitate that objective.

FPrime users have long relished the fact that they have a nice advantage on the competition due to the way it eliminates time wasted with tedious test renders. That's a BAD thing in your estimation?
So guys like Pooby who simply ask that certain aspects of LW be brought up-to-date so he doesn't have to step out of the program as much, are wrong for doing so?

jin choung
05-16-2008, 12:16 AM
posted again because of the juxtaposition of pooby (xsi) and cartoony freedom.

http://www.characteranimator.com/movies/character_td.html

i think this guy's at pixar now according to someone on this forum....

jin

rakker16mm
05-16-2008, 01:18 AM
If Windsor McKay had a self-sharpening pencil at his disposal, don't you think he'd USE IT instead of the one that required having to STOP WHAT YOU WERE DOING and sharpen the pencil, when he could easily use the best tool for the job and continue to keep plugging away?
All the improvements made in the software side are generally geared toward speeding up the tedious, time-consuming facets of the job, and offering more features/tools which generally facilitate that objective.

FPrime users have long relished the fact that they have a nice advantage on the competition due to the way it eliminates time wasted with tedious test renders. That's a BAD thing in your estimation?
So guys like Pooby who simply ask that certain aspects of LW be brought up-to-date so he doesn't have to step out of the program as much, are wrong for doing so?

First of all I have made no comments about FPrime. It is not part of my toolset. I think there is a lot to be said for going out and getting a better tool if it will help you get the job done better and faster. For me the tool that comes to mind is my Wacom tablet. I can't live with out it. I burned one up and went out and got another one rite away. I am setting some cash aside for a Cintique in the very near future. I have to agree with Pooby in regard to digital technology catching up with it's 2D cousin. Tablet technology is not quite there yet but it still is the best medium to translate your input to the computer. Digital photography.... same thing. Colodian photography a technology of the Victorian era when properly executed blows the doors off of digital photography.... OTOH when not properly executed, some times it just blows up :(

I am not picking on any one in particular least of all Pooby, who from what I can see HAS done some really amazing things that seem to transcend what is normally considered the performance envelope of this software. In that way I feel he is more like Winsor McCay than what I am talking about. So please don't suggest that I am criticizing him. I am not.

In fact this thread isn't even about any one in particular on this forum, but after reading so many posts where folks complain about the tools they are using or comparing brand "X" with brand "B", I still have to say that none of that debate actually causes animation to take place. People have done more with less for over a hundred years now.

I don't doubt that Winsor McCay probably did go out and get the best tool available for the job, it's just there was less to choose from back in the day. He probably did pick the best tools he could afford, and when he started making a little bit of money he probably went out and replaced them with something even better, but he also probably stuck with some of his old favorites because they were good enough and there really wasn't anything better available at any price. Hand drawing over four thousand cells by himself in the period of a month in addition to keeping his regular schedule, I don't reckon he spent much time complaining.

jin choung
05-16-2008, 02:23 AM
none of that debate actually causes animation to take place. People have done more with less for over a hundred years now.

right. so absolutely no more iterations of lw. we stop development........ now.

just as the statement "people have done more with less for over a hundred years now" successfully quells any possible criticism of software, so does it nullify any reason to continue developing.

because after all, "people have done more with less for over a hundred years now".

and just as "none of that debate actually causes animation to take place", neither in fact does software development. nor does any activity (typing in forums included) "cause animation to take place".

we should immediately halt any and all activity that does not "cause animation to take place" and vigorously start "caus[ing] animation to take place".

jin

rakker16mm
05-16-2008, 03:09 AM
right. so absolutely no more iterations of lw. we stop development........ now.

just as the statement "people have done more with less for over a hundred years now" successfully quells any possible criticism of software, so does it nullify any reason to continue developing.

No it doesn't, but then again yelling at a dull chisel doesn't sharpen it either. By all means keep developing the tools and by all means make them more intuitive. In the mean time work to the best of your ability with you have on hand. If Lightwave doesn't work for you use another tool. That's all I am saying, but take it to mean what ever you like.


and just as "none of that debate actually causes animation to take place", neither in fact does software development. nor does any activity (typing in forums included) "cause animation to take place".

Not quite sure where you are going here. I will say software development is very important, but I doubt that the complaint threads have done any more to spur new development than the threads in the features and request forum. Of course there is no way for any one outside of Newtek's development team to know that for sure, so I will pass on that part of the debate.


we should immediately halt any and all activity that does not "cause animation to take place" and vigorously start "caus[ing] animation to take place".

jin

Again that is not what I am saying :)