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KillMe
07-21-2003, 02:47 PM
i know what i would like to see what what you all think were going to see?


i'm thinking:
edge weights
complete set of edge tools (please let edges be in it pleeeaasssee)
n-gon sub d's
something like bevel++ included
maybe some workflow improvemnts and tidy ups
oh better symetery


not sure what else really

cresshead
07-21-2003, 03:06 PM
i'd hope that newtek could bring these pluginns into the core such as hypergrove, di2 translate, di2 super shift etc..

would save loading and all lightwave users could benefit, without having to "find" these little gems...


also, i'd like them to a dd a few more primatives like cylinder and beveled cylinder/tube...i know we can make them via the tool but a quick interactive primative would be a nice addition...

steve g

KillMe
07-21-2003, 03:16 PM
i have those tools myself but they coudl use a little work the make poly for example while it works in symetry mode which is great why not like the original stay in point moe and drop the selected point so you can move on to the next make poly if your haveing to amke afew polys having to first switch back to point mode the deselect is annoying

they good tools but afew of them need some polishing

but either way i would hope for more than afew user made plugs

riki
07-21-2003, 07:33 PM
Please full integration of 'SUDS'. At the moment it's limited to just Autopatcher :)

Valter
07-21-2003, 08:19 PM
EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT EDGE SUPPORT

Wade
07-21-2003, 09:10 PM
Is this a wish list or that which you think will be in Modeler 8?

How about a paint program working through the hub! Maybe you could use Aura or Photoshop!! Yes it's a wish list.

Stranahan
07-21-2003, 09:12 PM
Not to get your hopes down, but there are a lot more layour changes than modeler changes in this rev of LW8. I still can't quite post the list yet, though - but I don't want anyone to raise their expectations too too high and then be let down. It's a solid number of chanes, but not like Layout.

Psyhke
07-21-2003, 09:23 PM
Answer us this, then (if you will)... Do the prospects of significant upgrades in LW Modeler for 8.x+ look rosy? :)

digefxgrp
07-21-2003, 10:18 PM
If you want to see a REALLY cool new modeler tool, go to hurleyworks.com and check out the PatchIt-demo (.avi). It's in the plugin section.

takkun
07-21-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by digefxgrp
If you want to see a REALLY cool new modeler tool, go to hurleyworks.com and check out the PatchIt-demo (.avi). It's in the plugin section. Holy Crap Batman!!! That's freakin' amazing! Everyone should check it out, I've never seen anything like it before.:eek:

Chris S. (Fez)
07-22-2003, 12:55 AM
Okay. Consider my Modeler expectations lowered. So Lightwave development took a beating because of the Lux debacle. Totally understandable. Everybody goes through a bad breakup at some point in their life (or maybe just me and Newtek).

I think that if there are production-ready features in 8, like some super-fast smartskin interface for instance (?!), it would be in Newtek's best interest not sit on them. Give them to the users ASAP. I don't whine for features for any reason other than that I want to make my life easier. Please make our lives easier and release what you have.

As for my Modeler predictions:

no need to unweld
textured wireframe display, among many others
psuedo edge tools like the EdgeTools already available

organzero
07-22-2003, 01:48 AM
No edges? . . .

I won't try to hide my tears. Hopefully we'll get some metanurb UV textures that at least have the potential to not be stretchy? Please? =)

Rich

organzero
07-22-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by riki
Please full integration of 'SUDS'. At the moment it's limited to just Autopatcher :)

riki you can sort of do this now by changing your divisions level in the Options panel and then Freezing. Of course it only goes one way.... but you can freeze to 1x, 2x, 3x, etc level of detail.

Some people freeze at level 1 to smooth out their model. Your mileage may vary.

j3st3r
07-22-2003, 02:54 AM
More or less, edge things are solved by free plugins. But I seriously miss the Wire on Textured shading mode...it`s essential for game modelling...And I miss the possiblity for setting some light in modeller...Etc. Oh, and of course...there are problems with symmetry, and vertex normals...

They are my top hopes...

KillMe
07-22-2003, 06:03 AM
=( i cant help but feel modeler gets the short end of the stick - ben practically no changes in it at all

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't about the only new thing in it since 7 been magic bevel? - not having sued 6 i dont know but from what i can tell not beena whole lot of changes from even then

i think nt needs to give modeler and layout equal development priority

certainly if lw8 modeler lacks edge weighting and a set of edge tools its really going to get left behind the competition

julos
07-22-2003, 07:19 AM
I predict lightwave 8will have bevel++ (not a major improvement because it already exists).

Patch-it looks like something new and promising in the modeling world while edge modelling and ngon subdivs are already a must. I hope it's been considered.

Alan Daniels
07-22-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by digefxgrp
If you want to see a REALLY cool new modeler tool, go to hurleyworks.com and check out the PatchIt-demo (.avi). It's in the plugin section.

Looks very cool. Only problem is, how do you order it? Looking around his site, it seems like the only thing he has for sale is HairSpray.

KillMe
07-22-2003, 11:54 AM
i'm guessing its not finished yet - the hairspray vids were out long before the plugin as i recall so i assume same case with this one

js33
07-22-2003, 12:04 PM
Yeah Patch-it looks cool. It would be nice to see a demo of someone making a real model with it also. :D
This would make car modeling much easier than the current spline patching method. :D

I guess these guys and their plugs would cost NT too much to integrate but at least LW has some kick ***** plugin writers.

Cheers,
JS

Lamont
07-22-2003, 02:13 PM
I just watched the Patchit movies. Sweeeet...

hrgiger
07-22-2003, 02:22 PM
I don't know how much longer we can do without edge weighting. I think it would be the best addition to modeler since SDS.

Other then that, just new UV tools.

cresshead
07-22-2003, 05:02 PM
hi,
not one to start a war!...
but!!!!
""""I don't know how much longer we can do without edge weighting. """"

well seeing as lightwave has gone for around 10 years without it...maybe it can be done sometime..but not a priority i think eh?

there's so many cool tools that could be in lightwave..brought over from cinema, max or maya....yet people seem quite capable of making/animating & rendering just about anything "as is"..that's not to say that lightwave 8 is not needed...

i'd sooner have a paint fx tool in lightwave to paint a field of grass rather than an edge tool...other would like to see a version of character studio...or a reactor type dynamics system...or a nurbs toolset....

there's so much that could be put in...

difficult to think just what is really NEEDED...

steve g

j3st3r
07-23-2003, 02:32 AM
There are certain tools, or possibilities that are missing from Ligytwave making the work incomfortable.
At first, I think of local geometry coordinate in modeler. If you`ve rotated something, you cannot stretch it along it`s local axis, because there is no local axis.

Edges are solved somehow, but since it`s not native, there are several problems with it...selecting an edge is not equal to selecting two points defining the edge...especially when you are operating with UV.

There are standard requirements, and if thos standards are missing from a package, that is a big disadvantage.

I think modeler is not changed, because it is (or was) the property of Mr Ferguson, while Layout is property of Newtek. So I`m pretty sure that the next (post 8) version will be the Next Generation of LW.

The question is, how many user will migrate meanwhile to other, better equipped package...

colkai
07-23-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
There are certain tools, or possibilities that are missing from Ligytwave making the work incomfortable.
At first, I think of local geometry coordinate in modeler. If you`ve rotated something, you cannot stretch it along it`s local axis, because there is no local axis.


I hear ya on that one - would be nice to have modeller 'local-coords'!


I think modeler is not changed, because it is (or was) the property of Mr Ferguson, while Layout is property of Newtek. So I`m pretty sure that the next (post 8) version will be the Next Generation of LW.

The question is, how many user will migrate meanwhile to other, better equipped package...

Supposition on the reason modeller hasn't changed.
As for the migrating thing - every couple of months we have the same old arguments - check the threads - I think you'd be amazed at all the doomsaying, even in the old forums.
Yet - here's the thing - most of these naysayers are still around.
still spreading dissent, still crying foul, but *still* around.

Why is that ya reckon? If Maya/XSI etc.. are so damn good and folks keep threatening to jump ship - why are they still here?

It aint' no secret. it's because .................:p

cresshead
07-23-2003, 07:27 AM
i totally hear you on that!:D

i come from being a max user for the last 4 yrs and i really like modeller in comparison to max for making models...it's because it's not an object based modeler..
so there's no need to go into sub-object mode to move a polygon
like there is on max...on the whole max is quite logical but modelling at the poly level is slow in max...do-able ,but slow..and it lacked many tools that lightwave has had for years...

maya..Hmm not spent enough time to get a good opinion of it..but with the limited time i have spent in maya4.5 ple...i've yet to make a good "anything"..without the frustration of modes and windows disapearing on me..it lacks a "fun" element so far....

lightwave has it's faults no doubt, all software does..but lightwave is very capable...i like it...

steve g

hrgiger
07-23-2003, 07:45 AM
Cresshead,

Well, I think if you're looking for a way to improve modeling, edge weighting has to be seriously considered. Not only does it allow you greater flexibility while modeling, it also cuts down on wasted geometry and allowing you to form sharp edges(note*different then point weighting*) without bandsawing in another few edges, making your model poly count higher then it really has to be. Maybe in the near future, our systems will be fast enough to handle whatever geometry we throw at it, but we're not there yet, and efficiency while modeing is still an issue.

Lightwave went a long time without SDS and Radiosity but would you say we don't need those either?

I mean people always have requests for modeler but really, what tools do you think just sound cool or what have you really come across that has been a problem? To me, I've rarely come across a time where there was a shape that I had a hard time modeling. However, there have been rough spots. The things I would like to see are:

Edge Weighting (to cut down on poly counts)

Better UV tools (to deal with discontinuous textures so perhaps a 3D paint solution of some kind not to metion things like relax UV's)

Better handling of high polycount models (refresh rates)

Saving your background images with the model file (this way you don't have to set them back up everytime you start a modeling session. A simple request but would be nice.

jjburton
07-23-2003, 08:35 AM
hrgiger...

You can save backdrop presets. then when you reopen modeler, load your preset and your background images come back the right size and scale.

anieves
07-23-2003, 08:48 AM
man Ireally wanted edges in 8...

stone
07-23-2003, 09:08 AM
personly i dont see the need for edges. but i have a couple of other suggestions and hopes.

- more view modes. texture with wireframe is just one of them. flat texture is another, and so is flat texture with wireframe overlay.

in general it would be good if the modes where more customisable altogether.

- better tools to 'spin quads' . the OSSPP.ls plugin is rather good, and would be a nice inclusion.

- autoupdate of changed textures. this would help greatly when creating textures and skip the need to reload them constantly.

/stone

jb_gfx
07-23-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Wade
How about a paint program working through the hub! Maybe you could use Aura or Photoshop!! Yes it's a wish list.


Yes something like GhostPaint for 3DSMax would be great!

riki
07-23-2003, 09:47 AM
Serious Edge tools is one of the most frequently requested features in terms of modeling. I don't think it can be ignored for much longer.

sailor
07-23-2003, 09:48 AM
edge manipulation AND edge editing tools (filleting, chamfer etc...)

:D

nick2k
07-23-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by KillMe
i know what i would like to see what what you all think were going to see?


i'm thinking:
edge weights
complete set of edge tools (please let edges be in it pleeeaasssee)
n-gon sub d's
something like bevel++ included
maybe some workflow improvemnts and tidy ups
oh better symetery


not sure what else really


I completely agree with all of that :D

1 more thing

better UVS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a system that will also compensate for sub patch uvs :D and better editing of uvs and to rid the need to unweld to edit those locked uv points :) thats it for modeller

I must say Edge tools are must now, they really are. just take alook at wings3d for an example of awesome edge tools.

Nick

hrgiger
07-23-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by jjburton
hrgiger...

You can save backdrop presets. then when you reopen modeler, load your preset and your background images come back the right size and scale.


I know you can save backdrop presets. But if you read again, I said, I wanted them saved with the model file so that if you save your model with your backdrop images loaded, they'll load up again automatically when you open your model file. As I said, a small request, but saves the tedious work of loading up your background images again and again. I don't know how you all work but generally, I might leave and come back to a model several times in a day and I wish I didn't have to load up all of my images before I start each time.

sire
07-24-2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
I don't know how you all work but generally, I might leave and come back to a model several times in a day and I wish I didn't have to load up all of my images before I start each time.

I also felt this feeling many times. And where we're at it, also other display settings should be able to get saved with the object. All the stuff set up in the first three tabs of Modeler's display config panel (layout, viewports, backdrop), this would be nice.

jjburton
07-24-2003, 09:01 AM
hrgiger-

I read your message. I simply thought that you may not have known you could do that and it was close enough to what you were asking that I felt is was applicable.

If you work with content directories, then it's simply a matter of loading the preset and the config file knows where everything is and goes. If you're saying that you wish the model file would include the images themselves, that could exponentially increase file sizes. And if you used multiple reference image sets for more detail in certain areas, I'm not sure how that could be handled in the way you suggest.

Nemoid
07-24-2003, 09:02 AM
edge tools are needed!
the poly count question is a great example for their presence.

also i'd like the some of the following :

better UV tools
enhanced current interactive tools
with snapping for precise but intuitive modelling
thinking over all the architectural modelling

local axis in manipulating elements, smooth shifting etc.

construction planes.

NURBS implementation (this can sound blaspheme, but how
many designers use NURBS ? and what about prototype production?)
with possibility to convert polys in NURBS etc.(Maya)

think that they HAVE to use other apps to do this

object history.

aligning tools to surfaces

complete display options extension for every element

backgrounds saving with the model

these are a few, and we will not see them in v8 and is only a wish list
of what i 'd like to see in the future. so no complaining of what i have now
at all. maybe also in Newtek they'll have better ideas for tools than mine!

hrgiger
07-24-2003, 09:07 AM
jjburton,

No, I don't think the images themselves should be saved with the model, because yes, that would increase the size of the model file. Rather a reference to that picture/s so as long as you kept your images in the same directory, your model file would know where to find it when you loaded up your model. This would not signifcantly increase the model file. Just like when you load a model file, it knows to look for all the texture maps you have loaded on your model.

nick2k
07-24-2003, 09:12 AM
that would be useful. Im a prop modeller at absolute studios so i work with alot of live footage props that i need to turn into to cg objects. I use a lot of photos as backdrops. it would be very handy indeed if these settings where intergrated into the object.

I was thinking about uvs again. maybe it would be possible to get an unwrap plugin similer to the auto uv one in wings3d or maybe the more manual but very effective uv unwrap tool in 3dsmax. Something at least to help speed up uv mapping. i find that is one of the more tricky things todo isto get rid of uv distortions and stretching. but at least get some sort of compensation for subpatch uvs first of all!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the modeller is really the best thing about lightwave, its so much freindly and human to use. it be great to improve even further on such great program :)

Nick

jb_gfx
07-24-2003, 11:41 AM
There is a few points that could be enhanced and while they are not really hard to implement they will be a good following to the direction Modeler's workflow took from version [6].

1. More interactive tools. Why there is still a lot of functions that didn't becomes fully interactives since [6]? A few examples:

- SetValue
- Smooth
- Clone
- Rail Clone
- Rail Extrude
- Auto Patcher
- Auto Patcher MK
- Center 1D
- Additionals Primitives like Helix, Toroid, Wedge, etc..
- etc, etc...

2. Why we got an improved version of BandSaw called BandSawPro that don't have ALL the features from the classic BandSaw? That amaze me... Please finish BandSawPro and DROP the old BandSaw!

3. Why after you can't get back n editing a Bezier curve at a later time? If you made a mistake and/or need to tweak one of these curve you have to restart from scratch or tweak it by hand. At least a preset shelf for Bezier curves would be better than nothing, no?

4. Some simples but yet very usefull tools need a few enhancement. Please take a look at free stuffs like David Ikeda's Power Tools to see what I mean: http://www.davidikeda.com/

5. Improve Bevel so it can works on mutliple polygons in group mode, add it a preset shelf, curves, etc.. well just like Bevel++ but more optimised because this one tend to produce strange results (or even crash) on complex geometry. When it's done drop the old Bevel, SmoothShift and RailBevel tools...

6. In one word "clean-up" the modeler. Finish half done functions and drop the ones that has becames useless because of the new functions.

I think this is a good start before adding any new shiny toy.


EDIT/NB: I know some of these stuffs are avaibles as 3rd party (even for free sometimes) but such basic functions MUST be avaibles straight out of the box. Specially for new users.

Valter
07-24-2003, 11:42 AM
Well. I love LW modeler and I love wings3d as well.

I would like LW able to use NORMAL orientation to move, rotation, size, stretch all components (vertices, edges, polys or group selections)

It's will make modeling very easy and powerful.

KillMe
07-24-2003, 04:02 PM
there is a free normal move and rotation tools and a point normal move tool which is exceedingly cool

Stranahan
07-24-2003, 04:03 PM
Anyone here who uses LightWave to do motion graphics, please email me at [email protected] - I have some quick research I want to do.

Again - only email if you do text stuff, and like doing text stuff

Valter
07-24-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Stranahan
Anyone here who uses LightWave to do motion graphics, please email me at [email protected] - I have some quick research I want to do.

Again - only email if you do text stuff, and like doing text stuff

motion graphics, do you mean flylogos of text???


Killme : Yes there is and I'm use it. But don't work with symmetry.


cheers

Pavlov
07-24-2003, 04:36 PM
hi all,
reading these lines i wonder why people seem to drool on edge weighting, and seem to forget basic things that still miss in Modeler, which are *huge* holes in LW's workflow...
Sure, edge editing is cool, not only weight-wise but for every modeling task; but LW lack of a serious OSNAP system, guys...
this means workarounds, tons of tricky scripts to get around the ball, when a good OSNAP system would give us a real boost in all modeling operations.
I hope NT will consider this... before last-day-tricky-tool, we still need fundamental things all other softwares have.
In modeler, one of the most important things we lack in OSNAP.
Newtek always seems to forget about arch-design viz, which is one of the largest makets for 3D. Beside this, i hope to see other things like a decent DXF/DWG importer/exporter.
Add a faster/better GI engine (or add a rendering plugin class) and Maxon won't be a so-strong contender any more.

Paolo Zambrini

Userdelta
07-24-2003, 04:39 PM
lets not ask for free tools that we can get from flay, the good/needed ones should be included anyways.
id like to see these abilities and fixes for
MODELER in the near future.

instancing
independance for individual selections for action
edge weighting
fixed symmetry for tools to work
spline-based surfaces (doesnt have to be nurbs)
independant layer locking and render styles instead of the wireframe background stuff
save backdrop settings
ability to view more then just 4 weight maps
a morph mixer
keyability to all display options like show grid and normals etc..
fixed sub-d smoothing display errors
fixed open-gl transparency
additional rendering displays or better, ability to use them in combination
n-gon sub-d's
history
edges
FUD instead of the box in the corner
modifiable lighting system
>4 view display.

KillMe
07-24-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Pavlov
Sure, edge editing is cool, not only weight-wise but for every modeling task; but LW lack of a serious OSNAP system, guys...
this means workarounds, tons of tricky scripts to get around the ball, when a good OSNAP system would give us a real boost in all modeling operations.

ok could someone tell me what OSNAP is or stands for? then i can figure out if i'm missing it or not

Yog
07-24-2003, 05:45 PM
OSNAP = Object Snap

More commonly found in CAD packages, although MAX does have an exstensive range of snap options, like snapping to vertices, mid point on polygon, perpandicular to polygon, snap to grid, etc

KillMe
07-24-2003, 06:06 PM
oh yeah snapping i'll take some of that

watched some of the 3d buzz vtms think it was a maya one had some pretty cool snapping options or was it xsi who knows =)

but yeah i'll agree that could be useful

SLAYER
07-24-2003, 06:12 PM
I posted this in support because I am not sure if there is a way to already do this. If not I would love to see these simple things:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?threadid=8490