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View Full Version : NewTek needs to work on their marketing... ALOT!



Cageman
04-17-2008, 02:08 PM
http://www.luxology.com/press/release/112007_Terminus.aspx

So, which app do you think they rendered with?

As far as I know, LW was used to render... Not mentioned in the Lux-article, of course... but that's the point... LW won't get mentioned by other vendors. Period!

So, NT... what are you going to do about it?

Pretty much the same guys who did this movie made a bunch of shots in Iron Man, using Modo, XSI and LW... (hint) are you planning on talking to the guys?

Red_Oddity
04-18-2008, 06:22 AM
It won't be smart marketing when you are trying to sell Modo and it's renderer while mentioning that something was rendered in a program of the competition.

I don't think any vendor will do something like this.

Jim_C
04-18-2008, 06:26 AM
I 'think' he means that Lightwave is being used on all these cool gigs and Newtek makes no mention about it in news releases or interviews similar to what Modo did.

I think. (?)

Red_Oddity
04-18-2008, 09:21 AM
Aaaaah...still, isn't NTs marketing department under fire every month?

Maybe NT is just somewhat understaffed to do interviews, get rights to publish some film work and keep the site nicely up to date.

But i agree that NTs marketing could use some polishing.

JeffrySG
04-18-2008, 12:43 PM
There's been very little talk about a whole full length CG movie being rendered in LW.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82957&highlight=Terra

Costanel
04-18-2008, 02:19 PM
I think the topic asking for submissions for a brochure was already a good move from Newtek.
Only I wish they'll show the brochure to some of us before they use it, a marketing works best when its audience has a say in it.

With the progress of Lightwave going in leaps and bounds, they certainly don't need to hide to product!

Thomas M.
04-18-2008, 02:22 PM
Just the fact that users are putting together a demoreel for LW is embarrassing. Years ago I was asked to present NT with one of my images for the LW box. When I asked for a free upgrade as a payment I never heard of them again.

NT's marketing and selfpromotion is indeed weak ...

Thomas M.
04-18-2008, 02:25 PM
Costanel, did you take a look at the submitted images? Some of them are even more embarrassing than NT's marketing.

archijam
04-18-2008, 02:33 PM
Just the fact that users are putting together a demoreel for LW is embarrassing.

If you ask exception or most of the people involved in the 9.2 (and now the 9.5) demo reel, I think they wold see it differently. One of the defining things about Lightwave is the community. How is a little community involvement or enthusiasm - ie. enough to make a reel - so hard to understand? Particularly when it is the same users beta testing (ie. getting/using/producing) with the new product, and most likely out rendering the coders (who do what they do best .. code ..)...

That said, NT marketing is keeping an extremely low profile, and has for a long time. I have also griped about this on the forums. I now begin to suspect this is because they are going to release LW10 on a rocket with richard branson to the moon, and shower the planet with geostationary demos and node tutorials that may never leave the atmosphere ..

.. well as I said, it's just a suspicion.

frantbk
04-18-2008, 02:45 PM
It looks to me like modo is just talking up specific parts of modo. Case in point: "We made extensive use of modo 301's new painting, UV unwrap and sculpting tools on this project - they saved us significant time and allowed us to achieve excellent results without having to traverse several other software packages. Being able to sculpt right within the modo environment really simplified our workflow as well. We're also impressed with modo's OpenGL performance - being able to paint texture maps and view our work in real time was a tremendous asset."

Nothing here about the render, or animation of the 301 system. Looks to me to be limited to the core of modo. What would you have NewTek do?

frantbk
04-18-2008, 02:47 PM
If you ask exception or most of the people involved in the 9.2 (and now the 9.5) demo reel, I think they wold see it differently. One of the defining things about Lightwave is the community. How is a little community involvement or enthusiasm - ie. enough to make a reel - so hard to understand? Particularly when it is the same users beta testing (ie. getting/using/producing) with the new product, and most likely out rendering the coders (who do what they do best .. code ..)...

That said, NT marketing is keeping an extremely low profile, and has for a long time. I have also griped about this on the forums. I now begin to suspect this is because they are going to release LW10 on a rocket with richard branson to the moon, and shower the planet with geostationary demos and node tutorials that may never leave the atmosphere ..

.. well as I said, it's just a suspicion.

Let's hope your suspicion is correct,...I'm not holding my breath.

dennab
04-18-2008, 02:53 PM
If you ask exception or most of the people involved in the 9.2 (and now the 9.5) demo reel, I think they wold see it differently. One of the defining things about Lightwave is the community. How is a little community involvement or enthusiasm - ie. enough to make a reel - so hard to understand? Particularly when it is the same users beta testing (ie. getting/using/producing) with the new product, and most likely out rendering the coders (who do what they do best .. code ..)...

That said, NT marketing is keeping an extremely low profile, and has for a long time. I have also griped about this on the forums. I now begin to suspect this is because they are going to release LW10 on a rocket with richard branson to the moon, and shower the planet with geostationary demos and node tutorials that may never leave the atmosphere ..

.. well as I said, it's just a suspicion.


I suspect that you are correct. They will market LW10 as if it was something great!

There is a big difference between being great, and being marketed as great.

Does anyone remember what was said about LW 9 when they where pre selling that.

I will not hold my breath either!

CMT
04-18-2008, 02:54 PM
Just the fact that users are putting together a demoreel for LW is embarrassing. Years ago I was asked to present NT with one of my images for the LW box. When I asked for a free upgrade as a payment I never heard of them again.

NT's marketing and selfpromotion is indeed weak ...

Some are perfectly willing to give the right to Newtek to use an image of their for marketing purposes in hopes that they themselves would receive more exposure. I don't know how much business it would create for the donator of an image, but it might be worth it.

But with that said.... A free upgrade was hardly much to ask for a quality marketing image. It's very rare that I see quality stuff being given away for free.

Chuck
04-18-2008, 05:48 PM
What I can tell you is that you can open up any LightWave brochure from the last few years, and all of the images you see from major VFX houses, game developers, architecture and visualization artists, etc, were provided for NewTek's non-exclusive use as co-marketing - in other words, for the promotional value that appearance in the brochure and other marketing materials provides. Nothing else. All images, all sources. And I don't think we're unique in that regard, by any means.

Cageman
04-19-2008, 03:19 PM
Just the fact that users are putting together a demoreel for LW is embarrassing.

This is an initiative by the community. I don't think NT has any input on that reel whatsoever.

Take a look at Autodesks reel... do you honestly think that it is Autodesk themselves who are doing all the stuff? Sure not! It's their users that happen to be ILM, DD, Weta and pretty much all the big VFX-houses that does the eyecandy. Problem is, I believe Autodesk have exclusive rights to use certain movies in their reel...so, even if a couple of shots have been made with LightWave, NT doesn't have the rights to brag with them.

But the above mentioned shortfilm, Terminus, isn't one of those productions that Autodesk seems to have exlusive rights to (or any other vendor), and NT needs to act on those oppertunities alot more.

Cageman
04-19-2008, 03:22 PM
Nothing here about the render, or animation of the 301 system. Looks to me to be limited to the core of modo. What would you have NewTek do?

Act on the few oppertunities they have, make a story about it and put on the website! 300 and 24 is growing old...

BSG is a HUGE LightWave-show that looks really, really good... (hint, hint).

frantbk
04-19-2008, 03:24 PM
This is an initiative by the community. I don't think NT has any input on that reel whatsoever.

Take a look at Autodesks reel... do you honestly think that it is Autodesk themselves who are doing all the stuff? Sure not! It's their users that happen to be ILM, DD, Weta and pretty much all the big VFX-houses that does the eyecandy. Problem is, I believe Autodesk have exclusive rights to use certain movies in their reel...so, even if a couple of shots have been made with LightWave, NT doesn't have the rights to brag with them.

But the above mentioned shortfilm, Terminus, isn't one of those productions that Autodesk seems to have exlusive rights to (or any other vendor), and NT needs to act on those oppertunities alot more.

I see what you're saying. I have this question for you (and others), do you feel that Lightwave is fixed enough to weather that much PR and not receive undue criticism for its still weak tool sets?

Cageman
04-19-2008, 04:06 PM
Uh?

I have to say, I really don't understand your question... are you saing that NT shouldn't take the oppertunity to show off the strengths of LW?

dennab
04-19-2008, 04:32 PM
I think money would be better spent on development instead of marketing.
People already have their opinion of LW...good or bad. Peoples opinions wont change until they change the software. NT can say LW is great all day long, but until it is, their creating false hope! When compared to the competition the only selling point they have is the 999 render nodes...And everyone already knows that!
If they want to target hobbyists then they can probably market the bang for buck, but with blender and xsi, I don't know that they are on top in this area anymore.?

frantbk
04-20-2008, 08:50 AM
Uh?

I have to say, I really don't understand your question... are you saing that NT shouldn't take the oppertunity to show off the strengths of LW?

I think they are not putting Lightwave out in area's where Lightwave will be hammered for its faults. When I read the Lux PR link, I can look at that several different ways:

One is modo has strong customer support.

Another is that modo is only 85% a success because that company had nothing to say about the modo render/simple animation (which probably was a large chunk of R&D the last few years).

Another way is that the company is using XSI for gator, cloth, hair and dynamics, and Lightwave for camera rendering and more. So for all the good the PR is saying about modo, that person could turn around and say the same good about XSI, and Lightwave. In other words you can take what you want from that kind of bland word bite.

Cageman
04-20-2008, 09:34 AM
Well, what you are proposing is pretty much clashing with the interview Jay Roth gave in 3D World, where he says that LWs animationtools aren't as good as some of the other applications out there and goes on saying something about using the right tool for the right job.

frantbk
04-20-2008, 01:49 PM
Well, what you are proposing is pretty much clashing with the interview Jay Roth gave in 3D World, where he says that LWs animationtools aren't as good as some of the other applications out there and goes on saying something about using the right tool for the right job.

:D :D :D

Help me out here, we know from the link that it isn't lightwave's modeling tools that their after,....so what could it be that they are using lightwave for? :o :o

Mike_RB
04-20-2008, 02:43 PM
On Terminus we used modo for modelling, textureing, some sculpting, and 3d painting. The animation is mostly mocap, and the cameras are all tracked. LW was used for rendering. (no xsi). This isn't to say we couldn't now use modo to render.... this was completed over a year ago.

frantbk
04-20-2008, 04:06 PM
:beerchug: :dance:

I guess I wasn't wrong after all. Thanks Mike_RB. :thumbsup:

frantbk
04-20-2008, 04:17 PM
Well, what you are proposing is pretty much clashing with the interview Jay Roth gave in 3D World, where he says that LWs animationtools aren't as good as some of the other applications out there and goes on saying something about using the right tool for the right job.

Here is the quote from the article:
"Its all about knowing when to use the tool for the job, or put another way, using the right tool for the right job. If you have a large budget, a lot of time, and are doing a feature film with a creature that no one has ever seen before, then perhaps LightWave v9.5 may not be the best choice for this situation. However, if you have just a few weeks, a few people, and limited finances,"

So I think lightwave probably was the right tool.

archijam
04-20-2008, 05:51 PM
On Terminus we used modo for modelling, textureing, some sculpting, and 3d painting. The animation is mostly mocap, and the cameras are all tracked. LW was used for rendering. (no xsi). This isn't to say we couldn't now use modo to render.... this was completed over a year ago.

Mike - congrats to the team - regardless what was used, it's VERY nicely done!

Cageman
04-20-2008, 10:06 PM
:D :D :D

Help me out here, we know from the link that it isn't lightwave's modeling tools that their after,....so what could it be that they are using lightwave for? :o :o

Look in my first post...

Cageman
04-20-2008, 10:09 PM
On Terminus we used modo for modelling, textureing, some sculpting, and 3d painting. The animation is mostly mocap, and the cameras are all tracked. LW was used for rendering. (no xsi). This isn't to say we couldn't now use modo to render.... this was completed over a year ago.

But you used LW for rendering on Iron Man as well. :) And that was wrapped up not too long ago? :)

Mike_RB
04-20-2008, 10:26 PM
But you used LW for rendering on Iron Man as well. :) And that was wrapped up not too long ago? :)

Yep. We're fans of modo, and it is blazingly fast, but it dosen't quite have the features to bet a large production on the rendering side of it yet. It's still missing things like light linking. :) LW 9.3 did a fine job on Iron Man. Unfortunately having the character loading into layout with mdd's from XSI was painful.

frantbk
04-21-2008, 07:12 AM
Look in my first post...

I'm not sure what the point here is,... that you mentioned that lightwave was used for rendering, or that vender's don't talk about lightwave's contribution to films, or what will NewTek do about it?

If NewTek did gear up the PR machine it could have a counter-effect on lightwave. I've stopped by for the last year and the lightwave site has changed in that time. The feature list is still the same for the last year or more, the video section hasn't been added to for over a year, or more. Except for the main page nothing has been added too. So new customers could come to the conclusion that nothing new is happening to Lightwave.

That could cause a negative effect towards lightwave because the press release isn't reflected at the web site.

Cageman
04-21-2008, 08:24 AM
I'm not sure what the point here is,... that you mentioned that lightwave was used for rendering, or that vender's don't talk about lightwave's contribution to films, or what will NewTek do about it?

Either you have missinterpreted my posts or simply ignored them?

If you read my posts you'll understand that what I'm saing is:

NewTek should at least try to cover as much stories on LWs use as possible. The lux-link is a good example of where Lux have a story about Modos use in a production that was pretty much a 50/50 split between LW and Modo. If Lux makes a story about Modeling/Sculpting, NT should be able to do a story about Rendering, no? If you havn't been up to date with what NT has done with LW, then I can give you a hint; rendering!

As you have said yourself, NTs site doesn't change much, and that's why I urge them to add more stories about LWs use. Even if it's just rendering or modeling (or whatever). If NT only tries to get stories where LW was used exlusively, they may not get many...

Hope you understand what I'm trying to say here...

frantbk
04-21-2008, 11:12 AM
Either you have missinterpreted my posts or simply ignored them?

If you read my posts you'll understand that what I'm saing is:

NewTek should at least try to cover as much stories on LWs use as possible. The lux-link is a good example of where Lux have a story about Modos use in a production that was pretty much a 50/50 split between LW and Modo. If Lux makes a story about Modeling/Sculpting, NT should be able to do a story about Rendering, no? If you havn't been up to date with what NT has done with LW, then I can give you a hint; rendering!

As you have said yourself, NTs site doesn't change much, and that's why I urge them to add more stories about LWs use. Even if it's just rendering or modeling (or whatever). If NT only tries to get stories where LW was used exlusively, they may not get many...

Hope you understand what I'm trying to say here...

I see what you are saying, but does NewTek want to play the game of keeping up with the Jones? I don't disagree that NewTek could, and should release PR on when Lightwave was used as part of a pipeline and how Lightwave contributed to the project.

On the other hand, do many Lightwave users want NewTek to promote Lightwave as the new ElectricImage? Lightwave is more then just mocap/rendering, but right now that seems to be were lightwave is used the most by some of the FX shops. Is that all lightwave will be in the future, NewTek's ElectricImage?

Once again I don't disagree with what you are saying. NewTek need to do Press Releases on Lightwave as a tool for a pipeline and as a tool that can be used for the whole project. I also believe that if NewTek doesn't put some work into the Web page then most of the PR work will be wasted on the people that are less informed about Lightwave.

Cageman
04-21-2008, 01:35 PM
LW can be used as a very good and cheap alternative for rendering by individual people/small studios mainly using Maya/XSI. It's not a waste of money learning how to light/shade and render in LW (it's not that hard either). As progress is going on with other aspects of the software it can become the main tool for certain types of work instead of "just the renderer". Looking at the current market, LWs renderer is still the only thing that would make sense to try if you already know how to do your stuff with Maya/XSI. I also have to argue the fact that with todays spread of 3D-programs and 3D-paint/sculpt packages, one software will never fill all holes. Instead, learning how to make different tools play nice with eachother is probably alot easier than getting a single tool that covers all grounds.

Bottomline: If studios/freelancers are using LW to crank out really good looking shots for feature films (or independent films of course), it ought to get some attention from people otherwise ignoring LightWaves existence. But those people will be hard to reach if there isn't enough flow of "news" or "stories" about LW.

Currently there aren't enough flow to get the point accross.

And, finaly a funny thing; John Knoll said in the interview Brad had with him that Modo should get something like LightWaves Hypervoxels. :)

Thomas M.
04-21-2008, 01:41 PM
I hope NT will be able to make everybody see/believe that LW is indeed the swiss army knife of 3D.

frantbk
04-21-2008, 02:01 PM
I agree with what Cageman and Tomas M are saying, but if you look at Lightwave's feature list, which is very well format, and nicely done, the facts jump out at the viewer that layout is being developed more then modeler. You are not going to get away from that image jumping out at the viewer unless you change the format of the page.

Whether you or anyone else feels good about the idea, NewTek is sending out a message. It might not be the message they intended too send, but the message is there. Can anyone here really disagree with the saying that LWCAD is to modeler what FPime is to Layout? If you think that is a true, and fair statement then you can see the problem.

Mike_RB
04-21-2008, 02:08 PM
And, finaly a funny thing; John Knoll said in the interview Brad had with him that Modo should get something like LightWaves Hypervoxels. :)

Considering the author of HV's is one of Lux's main engineers that probably wont be too difficult.

Cageman
04-21-2008, 02:17 PM
Considering the author of HV's is one of Lux's main engineers that probably wont be too difficult.

True! but they need particles first... :D (don't think that will be a problem though). On that note, PFX was written by Daisuke Ino (if I'm not misstaken).

Oh well...

Cageman
04-21-2008, 02:51 PM
I agree with what Cageman and Tomas M are saying, but if you look at Lightwave's feature list, which is very well format, and nicely done, the facts jump out at the viewer that layout is being developed more then modeler. You are not going to get away from that image jumping out at the viewer unless you change the format of the page.

Whether you or anyone else feels good about the idea, NewTek is sending out a message. It might not be the message they intended too send, but the message is there. Can anyone here really disagree with the saying that LWCAD is to modeler what FPime is to Layout? If you think that is a true, and fair statement then you can see the problem.

I've never used LWCad nor FPrime, so I really can't make a statement on those. I do agree that FPrime, when it came out back in LW7-8 days, was the thing that made many stay with LW (many left even so). However, with LW9.2 and onwards, GI has improved alot. Also, I've seen reports that FPrime renders some materials incorrectly and it still can't render all the things LWs renderer can. It's not the thing it used to be, in my honest opinion; with that said I'm not going to say it isn't usefull for those who use it, but I personaly don't see a reason to buy it...yet.

My best guess to why Layout is developed more than Modeler is probably because most individuals that use LW these days are using it for pretty much everything, and the VFX-houses using LW today use it primarily for the renderer/modeling (although, modeling seems to be moved to Modo more and more). The things that lacked the most was Layout (and it still is). Looking at modelling techiniques displayed by artists like Taron and Proton (as examples) shows how well you can model without much effort and with very few tools. I would dare to say that modeling is more about preferences and skill rather than technical achivements based on tools.

This is not so true when it comes to rigging/rendering. Here you are much more dependent on the technical sides of the toolset, such as the ability to make a constrain to an object that is in turn constrained by another object etc. Or how many polygons the renderer can push through the pipe without chooking and die. We have displacements and normalmaps that needs to be able to render... I could go on forever and list things that are technical limitations that you simply can't work around as easy as you can when modeling.

This doesn't mean I don't think modeler needs improvements! I think that is why NT gave away LWCad 1.5 to all registered users.

NT has also talked about a possible merge between Layout and Modeler, or at least bringing modelingtools into Layout which could also be a reason to why Layout is more developed than Modeler, and needs alot more developement before this can happen fully.

However, I see what you mean and how that can be interpreted by the not so initiated LW-users (that means; new users :D ) but that doesn't mean NT shouldn't market LW as a "Fully fledged 3D-package" as well as a "companion tool for easy, fast and cheap rendering". :D

beverins
04-21-2008, 03:24 PM
I can say that once you have used Fprime as your previewer, you never want to have a Lightwave without it.

For example, I have sucessfully used Fprime as a replacement (of sorts) for getting around Lightwave's choppy opengl when you have complex objects or whatever. Turning everything to bounding box and animating by looking in the fprime window worked fairly well :-)

frantbk
04-21-2008, 03:45 PM
Once again, I'm not disagreeing with anything that has been said. I think we all agree at the basic level that NewTek needs more information out and about on Lightwave. What effect that will have nobody can really say. I guess for the guys that are well schooled in the business PR release like modo has more positive impact. For the noob to Lightwave it could cause a 50/50 (positive/negative) effect. The Lightwave web site along with the forum is probably the same 50/50.

I think as long as NewTek doesn't get into a competition with the other companies it would be more good than bad.

regenerator
04-21-2008, 04:36 PM
I always enjoy these kind of threads. But let's be real. I've seen more done with LW out of the box than a lot of these high end programs. You know how many times I read articles from these studios then later you find out the heavy work was done by programmers and proprietary software? You get more bang for your buck with LW. Hands down. Upgrades are free most of the time. 3d Max still costs 3 thousand bucks yet I still see people use VRay and Brazil. What happened to Mental Ray? XSI and Maya with all these different levels of software yet I still see people sending it to Zbrush and Modo?! What am I buying then? Upgrades are hundreds of dollars. You got stupid license agreements. Compatibility issues are ridiculous. The LW community is great. 9.5 is going to be awesome. These past upgrades have been great. Can Newtek do better promotion, yes. If by 10.0 they integrate a sculpting brush and allow the software to handle millions upon millions of polys or perhaps come up with ground breaking modeling concepts with the nodes, awesome materials, kick a#$ renderer(9.3), hair/fur, improved CA tools coming in 9.5. This will be bad a$#. Newtek should forget the big boys, they'll be history soon, and go after the solo artists or small teams who'll think out of the box and fulfill Lucas's prediction "The next big thing will come from a desktop" I'll bet it'll be one that runs LW.:lwicon:

Kelgor
04-21-2008, 05:29 PM
The reason I bought LightWave was because it was in my price range ($1000). I went to school where they taught 3ds. So naturally I wanted to work with that but, it was simply not an option with the price.

As I was looking at buying packages in the 1000 dollar range, I ran across NewTek's site and it seemed that LightWave was not front and center to the site. So I assumed it'd be a product that was something like Bryce (I don't mean to offend any Bryce users). But it did take some research to figure out that this was by no means what I had assumed. I could almost say I wanted XSI just because of their swwweeeet website. They seemed to be ahead of the curve and very modern, new architecture with some pretty amazing features to boot.

To end this post I'd like to say that you can't beat this community. I'm sure NewTek knows they are on the verge of OldTek. And they are working on it.

I would like to say, after buying a few tutorials from Dan Ablan I was up and running. And you'd have to pry LightWave from my cold dead hands. :D

colkai
04-22-2008, 03:48 AM
Can anyone here really disagree with the saying that LWCAD is to modeler what FPime is to Layout?

I can't see how they can disagree, without LWCAD, you'd need to get hold of some very old plugins for modeller to regain only a small part of the snapping / moving functionality. Even then you'd be missing out of a lot of other tools and none of this is available in any easy native form. Sure, you have translate plus, but egads, that is a right pain to use.

Nope, for sure, LWCAD is the tool I turn to most when modelling, I barely use the native scale / rotate / move tools now.

Also, I don't think people are saying you can't do stuff in LW, this is known to all of us.

The fact that it's use is not being pushed by marketing is a big problem in perception, a problem other packages such as Modo don't seem to suffer from as they generate a lot of their own hype. People hear something often enough, they get curious, that's what advertising is all about. It's no good relying mainly on word of mouth on a gobal scale.

frantbk
04-22-2008, 07:28 AM
Also, I don't think people are saying you can't do stuff in LW, this is known to all of us.

The fact that it's use is not being pushed by marketing is a big problem in perception, a problem other packages such as Modo don't seem to suffer from as they generate a lot of their own hype. People hear something often enough, they get curious, that's what advertising is all about. It's no good relying mainly on word of mouth on a gobal scale.

I agree, people haven't said you can't, what is being said by many modo users is that it is easier in modo (Of course they don't say how much time it took to do in modo, than it takes to learn to use Lightwave's modeler).

I think NewTek's not hyping lightwave is because it is a product with 18 years of use. Modo is, what, 6 years old? Lux has to hype modo because it lacks the history that Lightwave has. Still I do agree that NewTek needs to advertise more. I'm just not sure it should be all about the FX industry and Hollywood.