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Stranahan
07-20-2003, 09:46 AM
Just to give you a broad idea of what will be in LW[8] Layout, I'm going to mention a few of the highlights.

READ THIS!!!!!!! > These are not details. Details will come later, and that doesn't mean a lot later. This isn't everything in LightWave[8] - there are some things that are still underway for one reason or another, so I'm not going to mention them. There's no order to this list. It's not polished. It's just what it is - an overview of what will be in LightWave[8] - so please take it as an information source, and not a jumping off point for other discussions / rants.

I'm posting this to AVOID speculation and the resulting lunacy - not to fuel it.

LightWave[8] includes
- Multiple undo / redo in layout, as well as a number of other general workflow enhancements
- Enhanced IK / FK system
- Rigid body dynamics
- New soft body dynamics tools
- New particle system tools
- Auto Character Setup tools
- New character setup workflow that avoids going back and forth between modeler and layout
- Simplified render output workflow
- Game exporters
- Animatible UV coords
- Scene auto saving

Valter
07-20-2003, 09:57 AM
hmmm....

Zithen
07-20-2003, 10:06 AM
Yeah...hmmm.

Thanks for posting the feature review. Much appreciated. Looks good.

CB_3D
07-20-2003, 10:07 AM
...ahemmm...and now the details, please :D

papou
07-20-2003, 10:09 AM
cool... im happy to see features list !
i hope rendering improvement and fast AA are still underway..
It's soo important for my broadcast company, we don't have a lot of time to render....(maybe a tiny AA pixel filter?...)

Valter
07-20-2003, 10:25 AM
what's mean "Simplified render output workflow" ????

policarpo
07-20-2003, 10:33 AM
less buttons to push to get a render done i would guess...

sire
07-20-2003, 10:40 AM
Does "New soft body dynamics tools" mean an improved Motion Designer? Or something completely new?

Lamont
07-20-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Valter
what's mean "Simplified render output workflow" ???? Read this Valter/Sire:

Originally posted by Stranahan
Details will come later, and that doesn't mean a lot later.

Thanks for the info. I remember all of these popping up in the forums (old/new) in one form or another (I am not going to mention the obvious one :)).

CB_3D
07-20-2003, 10:52 AM
Maybe full multi layer rendering to a psd file, similar to c4d?!

jevinstudios
07-20-2003, 11:02 AM
Sounds like a good start, and hope to see more hardcore substance. NewTek -- ya need to thicken your skin a little, folks. You put info out for feedback, then get defensive and taken aback when there is a lot of negative comments. I think these comments are consistently coming at you for a reason -- I can't find another app out there with such an equal mix of loyal and dissatisfied customers.....

If it means waiting another year for a MAJOR upgrade enhancement to the product, what's the harm? In this competitive market, people are not willing to just lay down the $$ due to loyalty to a product -- there's got to be user substance and serious workflow enhancements to follow. I know for my studio, I've become quite selective in my upgrades this year, and for the future to come. I weigh the quality and functionality of a product to how (and how often) it is used. If a program is only used for Modeling, or pre-viz, etc., I will take a serious look at it's future in the pipeline before purchasing add-ons or an upgrade. LightWave is in this category.

If Modeling enhancements are not significantly made, most likely I'll sit with the current version for the time being, as this is where LW sits in the pipeline with my studio (hey, LW's modeling is excellent, but even Maya has made improvements in their modeling toolset recently that make it a serious contender with LightWave in this area!).

Time to listen to the community and take both pos and neg comments to heart, or LW 8 might just sink in the corner pocket.....

Cman
07-20-2003, 11:02 AM
Animatible UVs sounds quite interesting.
Also, the dynamics stuff!

SLAYER
07-20-2003, 11:02 AM
All of the features I hear about are for Layout.
Any cool new stuff in Modeler coming?
Edge tools like chamfers or fillets I hope?
At least some edge weighting without going into the whole weight mapping thing.

The modeling video at this location is still the best edge tools/weighting tools I have seen. This is for C4D, but why can/t we get something like this?

http://www.maxon.net/index_e.html

Cman
07-20-2003, 11:06 AM
SLAYER, notice the thread title: Lightwave 8 - Layout Initial Feature Overview.
Probably why no mention of Modeler features?

You might try posting your feature requests here: LW - Feature Requests (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=27)

policarpo
07-20-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by CB_3D
Maybe full multi layer rendering to a psd file, similar to c4d?!

um we have this already. been around since v7.

they just need to fix the layer orders so it opens properly without having to fix the order.

colkai
07-20-2003, 11:09 AM
Ahh Hell Stranahan,
Why'd ya have to go and do dat? ;)

Now I gotta get me an upgrade - and my poor old credit card was just beginning to recover :p

Ahh well, Guess I may as well plump for the DFX deal (hehe - still on in Europe)

Dag nab it!
:D

SLAYER
07-20-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Cman
SLAYER, notice the thread title: Lightwave 8 - Layout Initial Feature Overview.
Probably why no mention of Modeler features?

You might try posting your feature requests here: LW - Feature Requests (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=27)

Yeah, I did notice that.
I was just trying to pry as to why no modeler features mentioned anywhere and that if Lee Lee read this he could say as to why that is or do a similar thread for modeler as well.

I have posted in that thread before. That thread has been for suggestions, but this thread is actually receiving feedback, so I was hoping Modeler may get some feedback instead of me requesting more features which it is probably too late to implement anyway.

Even from the beginning mentionings of LW8 everything talked about has been for Layout with hardly any mentioning of modeler.

TyVole
07-20-2003, 11:17 AM
Not bad.

But I guess Dynamic Realities and Lukasz are none too happy.

cresshead
07-20-2003, 11:25 AM
"But I guess Dynamic Realities and Lukasz are none too happy."

wellyou never know...the auto character setup tools could have actually come from lukasz...seems a great idea to intergrate the tools into the core app seeing as they have been so well recieved and could be why the quadroped rig has been so long to come out for ACS4...

maybe acs4 minus the quad rig is now IN lightwave 8...
or
could it be that other rigging tool that's available for maya and lightwave is now in lw8?...the setup machine...?

also the idea that you don't need to go back n forth to modeller to sort the wieghting of the bones looks like a good logical move.

from reading this basic list..it appears that most of the annoying shortcommings of lw7 have been addressed...

newtek look to have done their homework well.

steve g

Karl Hansson
07-20-2003, 11:26 AM
Edge weighting and general weghiting tools is the only feature that I can think of that I need in modeler. I must say modeler is great, I cant think of anything that I cant make in modeler. Maybe also fivepoint subpatches. Im very exited over that list of features. Especially the new character setup workflow and IK/FK inprovements. Hoping that the new IK/FK offer some kind of hybrid setup so that you can control the rig with both IK handles and FK handles like in Kaydara Motionbuilder.

CIM
07-20-2003, 11:33 AM
I sure hope LW's poor UV worflow and tools get a HUGE boost.

badllarma
07-20-2003, 11:35 AM
Sounds good to me!:D

Multiple undo / redo in layout, as well as a number of other general workflow enhancements

- Simplified render output workflow
??? Always thought it was easy myself hope it's not simplified if you don't want it to be, unless we talking of thew photshop export here:D

- Game exporters
What engines? Unreal, Halflife 2(source engine),

badllarma
07-20-2003, 11:42 AM
Karl Hansson
" I must say modeler is great, I cant think of anything that I cant make in modeler."

To be honest I totally agree with you one that one Karl when I saw a few other post up what about modeler I thought "if it's not broke don't fix it!"

:D

andy

chewey
07-20-2003, 11:49 AM
hmm.. the current uv tools work just fine once you learn how to use them. I prefer them to other packages' uv tools now.

Leigh
07-20-2003, 12:09 PM
I agree, Chewey. I love working with LW's UV toolset, and find it extremely effective for all my UV requirements. The only thing I'd like to see added is a Relax function, like Maya has.

This is very exciting! This list sounds extremely promising :D

comanche
07-20-2003, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the overview, Stranahan!

All these features and enhancements are much appreciated. I'm looking forward to the [8] preview at siggraph.

Cheers,
Andreas

-EsHrA-
07-20-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
um we have this already. been around since v7.

they just need to fix the layer orders so it opens properly without having to fix the order.

bitt of topic but could u tell me what layer-order i should use to get the images right in photoplop?

thnx :)


Cheers,

-EsH-

ps. new features look nice although i really hope NT speeds up rendering.

cgolchert
07-20-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
Not bad.

But I guess Dynamic Realities and Lukasz are none too happy.

Dynamic Realities haven't had a product shipped with LW for a while. I'm sure napalm and impact will still offer more than the built in stuff. Just like LW 7.5 offers a few featuers napalm doesn't have.

and the post DID use capital letters on


- Auto Character Setup tools

TerryFord
07-20-2003, 12:15 PM
UV tools are pretty good (The Texture Guide could be better - but there's already a good/free 3rd party alternative), it's great that the UVs are just another form of mesh as far as the tools are concerned. I could do with losing the fixed discontinuous UVs though (remove the need to unweld - I'm hoping that "animatable" means they've already done that), a UV Relax would save some tweaking. Umm... subpatch "aware" UVs would be nice.

I hope the Newtek guys are taking the more, er, "passionate" posts with a pinch of salt, speculation about LW 8.0 has been rife in the past couple of months, it's only natural that people want to post comments now that some real info is emerging.


Regards,
Terry

Chris S. (Fez)
07-20-2003, 12:18 PM
"Layout Initial Feature Overview"

Well that clinches the integration question. Dammit. Does the HUB still suck? Is it still slow and crash-prone and do we still have to hit a button for a Modeler tweak to update in Layout? Please tell me there is some kind of Layout camera in Modeler so that we can finally model or tweak relative to a Camera?

Sorry, I was really hoping Newtek's new developers would condemn the HUB as a hack and start over...and maybe they did. We'll find out soon enough.

I know this is exactly the kind of speculation you were trying to avoid Lee, but I just can't help hating the HUB in its current incarnation. By the way, I think it might raise the eyebrows of potential new Lightwavers if you go to any post-millenium Siggraph with a "We Have Multiple Undos and Redos!" platform. They might think Lightwave is lagging. Perhaps pretend Lightwave had em all along? :).

policarpo
07-20-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by -EsHrA-
bitt of topic but could u tell me what layer-order i should use to get the images right in photoplop?

thnx :)


Cheers,

-EsH-

ps. new features look nice although i really hope NT speeds up rendering.

here ya go: http://www.lw-fin.org/tutorials/eki/TUT_LW_Compositing02_02.html

i know this is using buffers, but the stacking order is similar in photoshop, combustion, df....cheers!

as always...experiment with it to your liking. :)

i have my own little formula that i like.

1. RAW
2. Diffuse Shading (multiply around 50%)
3. Specular Shading (Screen around 70%)
4. Luminosity (screen and usually duplicated to a channel to throw in some accent coloring)
5. Mirror (screen or soft light or normal and adjust the opacity)

i also use my individual light passes as well and place the various buffers in my channels to really exploit color, mood and tone when compositing images.

hope that helps. use this set up as a guide and learn to do what feels right to you. compositing isn't a science so much as an art form. learn the basics and rely on your own visual experiences to get things looking the way you want.

a little old sample:
http://www.policarpo.us/cgi-bin/images/graphics/blog/021212-big.jpg

Yog
07-20-2003, 12:30 PM
Here's a bit of thinking out loud.

If animatable UV's are to be part of Layout, does this mean that other forms of point level animation are to be built into Layout ?

problemchild
07-20-2003, 12:37 PM
Maybe it's a not a list to make everyone happy, but it does well to address some major needs, and certainly makes for a major upgrade worth the $$ for me.

thanks for the heads-up. I look forward to those details next week.

btw: heard the release was Fall 2003. HAs this been rolled back to 2004 or is that just pessimism?

-EsHrA-
07-20-2003, 12:43 PM
hey thanx Policarpo ... u da man :) but u knew this allready :P

very nice sss feel in second picture.

ill show u some of my pics when i sort it out. thanx again!


Cheers,

-EsH-

Lamont
07-20-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by -EsHrA-
bitt of topic but could u tell me what layer-order i should use to get the images right in photoplop? Grrr.. there was a batch comand that fixed this for Photoshop. The user posted this on the boards a while back..

I wish I could remember where it was. Let me look through my posts...

facial deluxe
07-20-2003, 12:51 PM
Am I dreaming ? Am I drunk ? Or do I read NT annoucement of what's next ?
O joy, times are changing ! Thanx NT for that :)

policarpo
07-20-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by -EsHrA-
hey thanx Policarpo ... u da man :) but u knew this allready :P

very nice sss feel in second picture.

ill show u some of my pics when i sort it out. thanx again!


Cheers,

-EsH-

sure thing...glad i could help. feel free to ask about this any time...i love sharing quick solutions with users who see the advantage of rendering and compositing from layers. :)

i can even send you a .PSD already ordered when you get around to it. :)

jevinstudios
07-20-2003, 01:03 PM
A couple of previous posts mentioned that they saw nothing needed in Modeler, and "if it aint broke, don't fix it". That's fine if a company is not planning on upgrading software, but if an upgrade is in the works, there are PLENTY of things that can be tweaked, added and enhanced in Modeler. There are many studios that use LW as a primary modeling tool, for that has always been the program's strength. There's no way in hell that LW can match up to XSI or Maya in the animation, dynamics and rendering department, even with LW 8 cummin out. Therefore, most of the Layout hype is mute (for me, anyway).

If Modeler is left behind, and the main focus placed on Layout, that's fine for LW-o-philes that rely exclusively on this program for animation to fork out the $$ to upgrade; for me, why upgrade for a portion of the program that is not, and will not, be used? Modeler is just as important as Layout -- I sure hope it gets equal consideration. If not, hey -- no prob! More money in my pocket for an unnecessary upgrade I won't be buying!

I think that maybe offering Modeler as a standalone option is a great idea (kinda like a NT version of Form Z), for those that only want the modeling portion of the app (hey -- if Layout and Modeler are still to remain separate anyway, what would be the harm in this?). Those that want LW "Complete" can get both apps; those that want to purchase Modeler as a standalone can do so at a separate price.

NT -- let's get a thread on Modeler enhancements up and running, plz!!

Stranahan
07-20-2003, 01:10 PM
Thanks to Poli for answering the PSD question. I also have a movie that explains this stuff that will be on the NewTek site in the next week, along with another hour or so of DFX+ related stuff.

That being said, there could well be changes to the PSD output workflow, too.

Stranahan
07-20-2003, 01:13 PM
There's a reason I didn't post Modeler enchancements yet, and that's because we're not at a point where I can post them. Complex reasons, and should be cleared up in a couple of days. We should have a modeler announcement or two for you by midweek, but don't hold me to that.

jevinstudios
07-20-2003, 01:31 PM
Thanks, Stranahan! The Modeler post will be the one that secures my bucks for the next version of LW! Appreciate the heads-up.....

policarpo
07-20-2003, 01:35 PM
well, to be blunt and honest, I am very disappointment that version 8 won't include the "Instant Art" button that so many users have been clamoring for.

What the heck are the developers doing over there? It seems like they're making us put forth the effort to create stellar work. Who ever heard of giving users good tools to make work?

Instant Art is the future. Make it now!:p

Stranahan
07-20-2003, 01:41 PM
Poli

<SARCASM, DO YOU HEAR ME....SARCASM!>

Thanks for your Instant Art suggestion, or as we call it inhouse "ArtMonkey" or "Kostabi" .

I will forward it to our team of programmers, but they are all too busy debating whether to use a dark shade of gray, or a slightly less dark shade of grey and can't do any codiing for the next few months.

</SARCASM, DO YOU HEAR ME....SARCASM!>



PS : Codename Kostabi - That's a Dennis-Miller-like obscure reference if ever there was one, but it's funny as HELL to me!!!

CIM
07-20-2003, 01:42 PM
LW's UV toolset and worflow needs:

- Get rid of having to unweld everything. This totally messes up SubPatch objects, making it near impossible to fix stretching.
- Should be a UV Editor with all the tools right at hand. It would really speed things up.
- Needs to be a better way to see stretching and the seams.
- The most basic, needed UV tools aren't even there or are incredibly clunky (e.g., Relax UV, Move And Sew UV, Unitize, Export, etc.) Sure, ppl. like me have created UV tools, but there should be included ones that work well with LW.
- Cubic/Auto mapping
- Etc.

Clearly, LW's UV tools are good enough to get things done, however, the workflow is lacking as well as some of the tools. This results in UV mapping, in LW, being more of a chore than it has to be.

Zithen
07-20-2003, 01:44 PM
I wonder how long LW8 has been in development? Don't expect and answer, though. :)

Well, it's really quite simple. If LW8 delivers what people have wanted, LW will still be in the running. I'm not sure whether people will wait another year or two for the radical/better change in LW9. But we'll see. Hoping for the best.

js33
07-20-2003, 01:57 PM
8 has probably been in development since the day 7.5 was shipped. That's usually how software dev goes. You get a stable version out the door then you immediately start working on adding features, fixing bugs, etc... of all the things you didn't have time for in the previous version.

Cheers,
JS

Stranahan
07-20-2003, 01:58 PM
I don't know why you wouldn't expect an answer. It's just not a simple answer. LightWave[8] has been in development for a while, but a lot of time was lost in a dispute. As Chuck posted a few months ago, that dispute was resolved - but time was lost.

That's the past. Let's talk about the future.

NewTek has a tremendous committment to developing the LightWave software, and has a contunuing effort to bring in the best people and the best features. LightWave[8] is a great release that will certainly make most of you extremely happy, but part of the NewTek Values system is that the company provides tremendous value, including free upgrades to 8.x releases. These releases, as with past releases, will contain new features and enhancements.

Bottom line, every long time user knows that when you buy a LightWave upgrade, you're also buying free support, new features, and more. (More in this case also will mean greatly improved documentaton, including books, videos, CD, and online help.)

In short, nobody will have to wait a year to get enhancements. LightWave users know that new features are part of the deal. At SIGGRAPH, we'll be showing features on the shipping version as well as some future technology that will be part of LW[8] in the fairly near future. Wait for details, please - SIGGRAPH isn't that far off.

And with things like the DFX+ bundle deal, LightWaver users are getting the absolute best value in computer graphics. Fully professional software - every Emmy award nominee for visual effects this year uses LightWave - at a price with no hidden gotcha, and industry leading ease of use. LightWave[8] will take that 10 year tradition to a new level.

Neil_Campbell
07-20-2003, 01:59 PM
Lee

NewTek has commented a couple of times about the new LW development approach (ie following the model that has been used by Andrew Cross for VT).

Are there any plans to announce more on this side of things at Siggraph? I was hoping for a little more insight into how LW is going to be developed longer term, with respect to update frequency vs from 8.0 to 8.1 to 8.5 to 9 for example. Particularly since 3ds max now appears to be moving on a much more aggressive update cycle than LW (there have been several major feature extensions over the past 6 months, and 3ds max 6 is due shortly) and C4D is getting another point update soon.

Also, how come you're the one making the announcements about LW8 feature set (rather than Chuck or Will) and why now in advance of Siggraph?

Neil

Stranahan
07-20-2003, 02:14 PM
Neil,

I'm making the announcements because I consult for NewTek, and I was given the responsibility for pre-SIGGRAPH announcements. William is working on show demos, Chuck is writing and it's the weekend and I'm crazy. Deuce and I have been in IMs this weekend. Expect to hear less from me this week and more from other people, because I have SIGGRAPH party planning to do, among other things.

Why before SIGGRAPH? Because we thought it was good idea to get the information out there. Internally, we're very excited about the upgrade and we have a lot of annoucements to make.

I certainly expect more frequent updates than NewTek has had the last 2 years. Beyond that, there isn't an announcement planned as far as I know.

Nemoid
07-20-2003, 02:34 PM
Wooo hoooo!!

like very much the features in the list
i think Newtek is doing a good work! :)

(Yoda voice)
great news and details in next days we will see
(end of Yoda voice)

Keep on like this, Newtek
you are on the right way

turbodrive3d
07-20-2003, 03:09 PM
please somebody make interactive unwrapper like in Texture Weapon and please make clever UV packing feature

CB_3D
07-20-2003, 03:17 PM
I know this could be considered impolite, but i need my fix :rolleyes: , and since all the NT friends are browsing here i´ll just ask.

Will there be more and easier control over jointdeformations?

Ahh, just gimme this one.



:D

Zithen
07-20-2003, 03:18 PM
I don't know why you wouldn't expect an answer. It's just not a simple answer. LightWave[8] has been in development for a while, but a lot of time was lost in a dispute. As Chuck posted a few months ago, that dispute was resolved - but time was lost.

I see. Well...that's too bad. Yeah, my expectations have been built up and we know the reasons why. But since it's all resolved and now the past, the now and future is up to you all at Newtek.

Thanks for the support during the weekend and taking the time to answer some questions and comments. I'm really hoping for the best. I've been using Lightwave since version 2 or 3. :) Can't remember exactly, been a while.

Limbus
07-20-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
well, to be blunt and honest, I am very disappointment that version 8 won't include the "Instant Art" button that so many users have been clamoring for.


Im still looking for a 3d app with that certain feature. Until then, I guess I just have to learn it the hard way :D

Florian

Limbus
07-20-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Stranahan

LightWave[8] includes
- Multiple undo / redo in layout, as well as a number of other general workflow enhancements
- Enhanced IK / FK system
- Rigid body dynamics
- New soft body dynamics tools
- New particle system tools
- Auto Character Setup tools
- New character setup workflow that avoids going back and forth between modeler and layout
- Simplified render output workflow
- Game exporters
- Animatible UV coords
- Scene auto saving

Sound way cool! I'm glad I ordered the LW 8 DFX+ Deal.

Only thing I'm missing is an integrated app.

Florian

Limbus
07-20-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Karl Hansson
Edge weighting and general weghiting tools is the only feature that I can think of that I need in modeler. I must say modeler is great, I cant think of anything that I cant make in modeler.

Edge Weighting would be very cool but there are some more things like an improved bevel (like bevel++ or vertibevel), edge selection and what not. Alot of things can be added by plugins but it would be nice if some of them got integrated.

Florian

manfriday
07-20-2003, 05:39 PM
I am very disappointment that version 8 won't include the "Instant Art" button that so many users have been clamoring for.

Well thank God it's not in there! I am almost finished with my MakeModelNotSuck.ls script!

I'd be pissed if Newtek beat me to it again!

Im still smarting over their implementation of the move tool.
I had just about wrapped up development of my "PontGoOverThere.p" plugin when those bastards just started giving away the same functionalty FREE with lightwave!

policarpo
07-20-2003, 07:00 PM
You know what would make LightWave scream and run super fast.

If it was all command line based.

Think of the light UI this would give us.

Man...i better see some videos of some of these new features or I'll start screaming like a catholic school girl who drank too much of the sacred sacrement!

:p

js33
07-20-2003, 08:10 PM
Yeah I would like to see some info on the soft/hardbody dynamics.
Are we getting an updated Motion Designer and an Impact Lite or are they new real integrated solutions that are useable.

Motion Designer turned out to be far more useful than first thought but it was/is a pain to get it just right. Also MD was/is able to do some rigid body dynamics.

I would really like LW to have these tools built in that are on the same or better level than Maya or XSI.

Also 3dmax uses the Havoc engine whcih seems capable but I think it is only for rigid body dynamics.

Cheers,
JS

SLAYER
07-20-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
Thanks, Stranahan! The Modeler post will be the one that secures my bucks for the next version of LW! Appreciate the heads-up.....

Right on!
I agree with you Jevinstudios!

jjburton
07-20-2003, 09:07 PM
Enhanced IK...

...hmmm, do you think that might might mean different solvers like (PLEASE) a spline solver?

Mike Pauza
07-20-2003, 09:33 PM
PHYSICS STUFF!!! :):):)

Karl Hansson
07-20-2003, 11:00 PM
<<< Will there be more and easier control over jointdeformations?
>>>

I agree. Any thing that helps out with this is exrtemly welcome. Shoulders is still a pain to make. Having setup and weighting in layout would be a great start. Also I have an idea for a deformation plugin to help out with this too.

hopicus
07-21-2003, 12:18 AM
much improved jointdeformations is the number one desperetely needed feature on my lightwave 8 wish list,... im hoping for some kind of bone activated morph target kind of setup that would all be done in modeler and be able to be saved with the object... or something like that... Make it so... :D Please?:D

riki
07-21-2003, 01:10 AM
I can wait to see what's on the Modeler list, I'm really hope it starts with some serious progress in Edge Tool department.

jb_gfx
07-21-2003, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by js33
Yeah I would like to see some info on the soft/hardbody dynamics.
Are we getting an updated Motion Designer and an Impact Lite or are they new real integrated solutions that are useable.

Motion Designer turned out to be far more useful than first thought but it was/is a pain to get it just right. Also MD was/is able to do some rigid body dynamics.

I would really like LW to have these tools built in that are on the same or better level than Maya or XSI.

Also 3dmax uses the Havoc engine whcih seems capable but I think it is only for rigid body dynamics.

Cheers,
JS

If it's like I hope FXBreak + EditFX + FXMotion Drive & Distorsion from INO then we will have some rocks solid tools...

Nemoid
07-21-2003, 01:59 AM
i like this point :

"New character setup workflow that avoids going back and forth between modeler and layout"

even if this means that Layout and Modeler are still separated,
the possibility of making the rig without going back and forth
is great to me!!!

does this mean bone tools in some way similat to ortho's tools?
they are great!!

hope in some enhancements of the Hub, wich from a programming POV uses a slow connection system...

then , i'm waiting for details and the modeler feature list

Dodgy
07-21-2003, 02:13 AM
Yay, nice to see us game heads getting some support :)

- Game exporters
- Animatible UV coords


'...hmmm, do you think that might might mean different solvers like (PLEASE) a spline solver?'

To be honest, I always thought the multiple ik goals method of LW was a kind of Spline IK.... Certainly looks spline like. Or am I missing something here?

'If it's like I hope FXBreak + EditFX + FXMotion Drive & Distorsion from INO then we will have some rocks solid tools...'

Do you know what they're like? Can you give more info please?

Thanks
Mike

sailor
07-21-2003, 02:56 AM
we are a couple of guys ova here waiting for the modeler's fature list as well :D....edge manipulation please...and history and cool snapping and and...

thx :)

Lightwolf
07-21-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Mike Pauza
PHYSICS STUFF!!! :):):)
Looking at what you pulled out of MD...
If L[8] releases a full physics toolkit, I expect you to create a complete character animation with it :)
* Select character motivation
* run simulation
* render

:D

The lists sounds great though, hope the SDK reflects that too...

Stranahan
07-21-2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by jb_gfx
If it's like I hope FXBreak + EditFX + FXMotion Drive & Distorsion from INO then we will have some rocks solid tools...

That is exactly what it's like - plus Ino is now a fulltime member of the LightWave development team.

Mike Pauza
07-21-2003, 08:36 AM
Lightwolf:

Physics based character animation should be possible (and wicked) if they include hierarchical soft and rigid body dynamics.




Stranahan:

What can you tell us about Ino?




-Mike

Exper
07-21-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Mike Pauza
Stranahan:
What can you tell us about Ino?Mike... is this is my own speculation? ;)

Take a look at: "LightWave 3D > LW - Feature Requests > LW8 and Impact lite?"
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8044&pagenumber=2
Stranahan wrote:
"The big news - or part of it - is that Daisuke Ino is now a full fledged member of the LW Development team. That means that LightWave users will get immediate benefits of robust, working software as well as more innovation and integration down the road."

Bye.

Karmacop
07-21-2003, 09:12 AM
Didn't Ino do JetStreamFX? Does that mean we get that? .. I always thought it was what the lightwave 6+ version of steamer should have been ...

Exper
07-21-2003, 09:17 AM
Karmacop...
as far as we know...

Stranahan wrote:
"LightWave 8 will include improved soft body dynamics and rigid body dynamics. They won't be a light version of anything, but will instead be full and expanded versions of Daisuke Ino's plug-ins such as FX Break. A lot more details, soon - but that's not the big news, really.

The big news - or part of it - is that Daisuke Ino is now a full fledged member of the LW Development team. That means that LightWave users will get immediate benefits of robust, working software as well as more innovation and integration down the road."

Take a look at: "LightWave 3D > LW - Feature Requests > LW8 and Impact lite?"
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthr...44&pagenumber=2

Bye.

Mike Pauza
07-21-2003, 09:48 AM
So NewTek hired the guy that wrote a lot of our current physics tools? If they listen to all the great suggestions the community has given them, we should have some incredible new software comming our way.

I can't wait!!! -Mike

Zithen
07-21-2003, 09:57 AM
So LW8 is adding FXBreak, FXdistortion, FXMotionDrive?

Hm. Well, Mike Pauza seemed like he knows what the heck he's doing. I'm sorry, I just feel MD and even what I see with these FX plug-ins hold the same philosophy...make everything complicated to use. I'm hoping LW8 will have something better than that, honestly.

Man, I am really disappointed that LW8 development got messed up along the way. I remember the maker of MotionMixer saying a year and a half ago that LW8 was gonna be killer, but now I'm not sure we'll get the same app he was talking about. Why oh why can't people just get along? I'm sorry, I'll get over it. We'll just have to see what's in store. Fingers crossed. :)

Mike Pauza
07-21-2003, 10:24 AM
Zithen:

They have to make it usable...or the'll have to answer to us right? Hehe.

Doug Nicola
07-21-2003, 11:08 AM
This list looks great! Considering it's just a taste of what's to come, there should be many powerful and wonderful new things in 8. Thanks a bunch for these previews!

kellyv
07-21-2003, 11:42 AM
Since people are throwing out some ideas for the next version. I think it would be very helpful to have a rendering feature setup like maya's. For an example, there is a free movie tutorial download here (http://www.simplymaya.com/movie_pages/tutorial.mhtml?tut_id=35). To see what I'm talking about download the 2nd part of the video tutorial.

What happens is it enables you to render objects separately based on layers. I feel this would greatly improve our workflow. Right now we have a couple of great gifts that allow us to render stuff as needed using comp assistant and the psd export, but the one thing we have to do is set up new scenes or baby-sit each time we need to comp some layers [or I feel]. Now if you have to change a scene, you don't have to worry about updating all the other scenes with animation and/or lighting.

These rendering layers are different from object layers. And through the layers it separates the passes for each layer pass [which ever passes you choose to use and abuse]. Who knows maybe even combine the ideas together? What do others think about this?

kudos,
Kelly

colkai
07-21-2003, 12:44 PM
Zithen,
Chances are guy that you don't have anything to worry about.

Even complex stuff is ok *if* you get some good tutorials in there.
Well, I am now committed to getting LW8 - Curse you Lee! ;)

I'm just buzzing with what is being leaked - bear in mind, they have all made it clear that this is by no means the full story!

On an aside note - what *would* be nice if is those of us getting the upgrade also got some tutorial video / cd/ whatever.
The last couple of upgrades, only those buying a full packge got the help - us upgraders need love too ya know! :p

Seriously, either that, or put some nice VTM's up about the new features so we can get some "real world" vision of them. Sometimes, dry text just isn't clear enough.

Anyhoo, waiting on 'onevideo' - within 3 days - I'll officially be 'ex-8-ted' :D :D :D

js33
07-21-2003, 12:45 PM
Hi kellyv,

I didn't know about Maya implementation but just yesterday I had the exact same idea!

Have the ability to assign objects or surfaces to their own layer and render it all out at one time to a layered PSD file.

Cheers,
JS

Lamont
07-21-2003, 12:46 PM
Wasn't LW 7 supposed to come with a DVD or VHS? I was told that on the floor I think at Siggraph...

Anywho... I can't wait.:D

cavalos
07-21-2003, 01:58 PM
"LightWave[8] will take that 10 year tradition to a new level"

That sounds so goooood :)

P.S: Don't forget the Renderer please!!!

nemac4
07-21-2003, 02:23 PM
- Simplified render output workflow
- Game exporters

I hope this is what it sounds like. ..A faster "Viper/G2 like" renderer for animatics and such? or is it just fewer buttons in the render panel?

I'm just getting into the Game side of things and I find Lightwave to Game Format conversions very frustratng too,.. Models, Textures, and Animation, I hope.....so I'm looking forward to that too.

I'm also hoping for a long overdue maya like dopesheet. 8-D

David Mitchell

cresshead
07-21-2003, 02:49 PM
renderer workflo:

there was a converstaion a while back about moving some of the stuff from the camera panel to the render panel as you usually need to go to both to set your render up...i'd say a good guess is that they moved those things into one panel like people have in most other 3d apps.

stevev g

kellyv
07-21-2003, 03:28 PM
js33:

I'm glad I'm not the only one! I'm think of the surfaces, and that would be really interesting addition too! hmmm ~ "ex-cel-lent." [in my mr burns impression!] :)

Kelly

Librarian
07-21-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
here ya go: http://www.lw-fin.org/tutorials/eki/TUT_LW_Compositing02_02.html

i know this is using buffers, but the stacking order is similar in photoshop, combustion, df....cheers!

as always...experiment with it to your liking. :)

i have my own little formula that i like.

1. RAW
2. Diffuse Shading (multiply around 50%)
3. Specular Shading (Screen around 70%)
4. Luminosity (screen and usually duplicated to a channel to throw in some accent coloring)
5. Mirror (screen or soft light or normal and adjust the opacity)

i also use my individual light passes as well and place the various buffers in my channels to really exploit color, mood and tone when compositing images.

hope that helps. use this set up as a guide and learn to do what feels right to you. compositing isn't a science so much as an art form. learn the basics and rely on your own visual experiences to get things looking the way you want.

a little old sample:

Poli, that`s great! Never used this rockin feature! IT WORKS WITH THE DISCOVERY EDITION, hope i`ll get the full end of the month, AND DOESN`T LIMIT THE RENDER OUTPUT WITH WATERMARKS!!!!!
:) :p :cool:

js33
07-21-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by kellyv
js33:

I'm glad I'm not the only one! I'm think of the surfaces, and that would be really interesting addition too! hmmm ~ "ex-cel-lent." [in my mr burns impression!] :)

Kelly

Hi Kellyv,

Yeah something like that would save me from having to render out several passes when I want to isolate an object or if you want to tweak an animated texture speed later after you've rendered a time consuming scene. :D As most LW'ers I very rarely render a finsihed scene right out of LW. I usually seperate out elements so I have the freedom to change it later in AE or DF.
If you work with clients you can count on them wanting to change whatever you do later. :p

Cheers,
JS

Hurben
07-22-2003, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by js33

Also 3dmax uses the Havoc engine which seems capable but I think it is only for rigid body dynamics.

Cheers,
JS

The Havok Engine (www.havok.com) is both for Soft and Rigid bodies; you can preview the results in a realtime window and drag each element around with your mouse! I was whipping a tablecloth around knocking over plates, cups, table and chairs, while the cloth mesh moved believably!
The physics data can also be exported out to Director for cool gaming engines.
If Lightwave can implement a physics engine as strong and solid as that, I'll be laying down my cash for an upgrade for sure.

I'm actually have my doubts though as to whether the rigid/soft body dynamics solutions they have in mind for us will be up to scratch.. I had nothing but problems with Impact! I mean I could toss a few blocks around, but anything complex because increasingly hard to use and manipulate.

Will we be able to use weight maps for defining soft-body areas?

A powerful 'dope sheet' is something I've been waiting for and more abilities to assign something to many objects at once. (i.e. the spreadsheet just doesn't cut it) In the graph editor, I just want to copy one motion to lots of others and I can't without pasting onto each one.

I look forward to the other improvements to the Lightwave software.

cresshead
07-22-2003, 05:17 AM
hi just to expand on havok in 3dsmax 5..which was renemed reactor and brought into the core...

yes reactor is quite neat with realtime display of reactions and you can whip a tablecloth around ascene and distirb objects in a believable way..it can do hardbody and soft body quite well...
..wait a minite...i haven't metioned "cloth"???....well i did sort of with table ""cloth""...but not clothing....
why's that??

well reactor simply can't cut it for realistic clothing simulations...don't believe the hype that it can..it's a no go situation.

havok 2 [game simulator physics engine..not available for max in the core or a commercial plugin..yet] can do "ragdoll" sims but not seen clothing in that as yet either...

you need simcloth [free and capable but NOT realtime]
or clothreyes [$100]
or stitch $600 for clothing in max

we of course have motion designer built into the core of lightwave..
it may be a bit quirky..BUT it can do realistic clothing simulations

sometimes the grass is simply a different shade of green and not actually that much better or worse on the other side of the 3d app fence.

steve g

Hurben
07-22-2003, 05:43 AM
Thanks Cress :)

I didn't know that about reactor.. I've only ever used it for curtains, sails, flags and blankets..

Never tried to apply motion designer to clothing either, but I imagine without the ability to assign falloff, or weight maps, it would be a kinda tricky task..

Exper
07-22-2003, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by Stranahan
- Rigid body dynamics
- New soft body dynamics tools
- New particle system tools
Ino is now a fulltime member of the LightWave development team then we can expect a lot better stuffs than MD or PFX; we can also expect more usable and powerful tools!

Bye.

facial deluxe
07-22-2003, 06:25 AM
Interesting, I too wasn't very satisfied with impact2, didn't find it very friendly to use.

KOlson
07-22-2003, 07:03 AM
Ino is now a fulltime member of the LightWave development team then we can expect a lot better stuffs than MD or PFX; we can also expect more usable and powerful tools!

This is awesome news! :D :D

BeeVee
07-22-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by kellyv
What happens is it enables you to render objects separately based on layers.

You know that you can render selected objects separately from the scene by hitting F11? I know it's not a fully-fledged solution, but it's possible you could use the PSD exporter, or the RLA/RPF ones to give you the other channels you want?

B

zarti
07-22-2003, 07:21 AM
Hello!, to everyone.

Any % won @ rendering-speed in this version ?

*This is also important,............ (or ...not!!?)*

kellyv
07-22-2003, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by BeeVee
You know that you can render selected objects separately from the scene by hitting F11? I know it's not a fully-fledged solution, but it's possible you could use the PSD exporter, or the RLA/RPF ones to give you the other channels you want?

BeeVee,

Yeah, I'm familiar with that quick solution. I've used it many times to render certian objects for tests [as well as the psds]. I was just hoping for a 'simplier' solution. BeeVee, picture being able to render out each object individually [at once] with out having to select the object[s] and hit f11 everytime. :) You should check out that video, http://www.simplymaya.com/movie_pages/tutorial.mhtml?tut_id=35.


Kelly

StevenDS
07-22-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Dodgy
Yay, nice to see us game heads getting some support :)
- Game exporters

Any chance this -could- be something that'll work with Half-Life 2's editor?
-Steve
:confused:

Jimzip
07-22-2003, 08:32 AM
Wait.. Wait!! :eek:

Was that.... Leigh?!?!
I believe it was!

Leigh, come back, don't vanish again into some misty space-time-trans-dimensional portal!

(Cripes, she disappears before she arrives!!)
Oh well. Talk soon.

Jimzip :D

(For those of you who missed her in her fleeting commenting moments, she's all the way back here: http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?threadid=8266&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 )

Mike Pauza
07-22-2003, 08:33 AM
Havok:

Havok's real strength is in fast collision detection. In that regard it's hard to beat. Havok's collision response can be pretty terrible though. I'm hoping NewTek/Ino codes us a new engine that's as fast as possible without sacrificing collision quality. That's key IMO. I'm not a polygon collision expert, but It's my understanding that the game engines are fudging the collision impulses (large forces over short time periods) to force it to be realtime...please don't do that. :)

-Mike Pauza

Stranahan
07-22-2003, 09:36 AM
Mike,

Ultimately, I think we should do both. The game engine / RT approach is great..for game engine / RT stuff. No reason not to have the fudged math as an option, in the long run.

Mike Pauza
07-22-2003, 10:11 AM
I agree with you 100% Lee.

Exper
07-22-2003, 10:52 AM
I agree with Lee too.

This should be the final solution! ;)

meshmaster
07-22-2003, 11:06 AM
that Lightwave 8 will be somewhat inspired by Kaydara's Motion Builder!!!

papou
07-22-2003, 03:40 PM
from the "What do you use LW for?" Poll,

26.81 % for Char animation and Video games...
59.52 % need Lightwave for Effects, Printing, Broadcast, etc...
Are you sure you are not planning to increase the renderer?!
...

Stranahan
07-22-2003, 04:35 PM
Nobody said the renderer won't be improved or changed. I hope this was clear. I said - don't expect significant changes in the 8.0 release.

kellyv
07-22-2003, 04:58 PM
from Stranahan
...don't expect significant changes in the 8.0 release.


Are you refering to the renderer or the package as a whole? ;)




Cheers,
Kelly :)


P.s. I'm not trying to start something, I'm waiting on 8 to arrive like most who pre-ordered [or just to even hear more about it]. I know you can't say much, but that doesn't seem like a strong sentence.

Stranahan
07-22-2003, 05:46 PM
I was talking about the renderer - it's a continuation of a previous post. Sorry for the confusion.

KOlson
07-22-2003, 05:50 PM
So many good things coming for [8], can't wait to see feature videos. Come on Siggraph! :D

Stranahan
07-22-2003, 05:51 PM
Yeah, okay - let me work on some...

KOlson
07-22-2003, 05:53 PM
Thanks Lee :)

Stranahan
07-22-2003, 09:07 PM
There's a new thread with a short feature tease posted...

Stranahan
07-22-2003, 10:53 PM
There's another thread up with a preview movie, but it's all a big mistake..

Lamont
07-22-2003, 11:01 PM
Are you going to keep posting these? Or can I go to bed now? ;)

milkman
07-22-2003, 11:09 PM
post some more!

so much fun!

Dick Ma
07-23-2003, 02:24 AM
Will there be new Light types?

Exper
07-23-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by Stranahan
Nobody said the renderer won't be improved or changed. I hope this was clear. I said - don't expect significant changes in the 8.0 release.We all hope the renderer will be improved as soon as possible!
What "non-significant" changes can we expect in LW8?


Originally posted by Dick Ma
Will there be new Light types?Some needs:
1) Circular Spots (parallel and conical)
2) Rectangular Spots (parallel and conical)
3) Single-sided Area Light
4) Deep Shadows

Bye.

papou
07-23-2003, 08:18 AM
hi,
4) Deep Shadow & Perspective shadow.
http://www-sop.inria.fr/reves/publications/data/2002/SD02/PerspectiveShadowMaps.pdf

jb_gfx
07-23-2003, 10:07 PM
For whose who don't know the new FX plugins by Ino there are demos versions avaibles from DStorm's site:

FXBreak (Rigid Body Dynamics)
http://www.dstorm.co.jp/FXBREAK/e/

FXMotion Drive and Distortion (Softbodies Dynamics)
http://www.dstorm.co.jp/FXMnD/e/

Both includes a new version of ParticleFX (including the EditFX module)

To make it short FXMD&D is the new version of Motion Designer (don't be afraid) wich is BLOODY fast and much more easy to use.
The cool thing is all these tools are working together with ParticleFX (yes that mean interaction in all ways you can imagine).

Another great functionality is you can edit (by hand) the motions AFTER the dynamics calculation, (i.e if you are not happy with some part of the final animation) without having to compute the whole calculation again. Finally tools you can really use in a production environment. :-)

NB: These are the old commercial versions so I have no idea what they looks like now in LW[8]

Karl Hansson
07-23-2003, 11:44 PM
WOW!!! These new dynamic features seems very promising. I'm very excited indeed.

digefxgrp
07-24-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Dick Ma
Will there be new Light types?


At least add barn doors and the ability to control light falloff using the graph editor to the existing lights.

Stranahan
07-24-2003, 10:52 PM
Okay - here's the link...

http://www.newtek.com/shows/siggraph/2003/index.html


Sign up for free training

Sign up for the party

Sign up to win prizes even if you can't attend....

Sign up!

colkai
07-25-2003, 04:45 AM
Took you at your word Lee! ;)

No way can I make it - but hey - maybe the training vids will be accessible to us poorly paid folks too! :D

One day, when I get a decent job, I may finally make it over, (probably in time for the Lightwave69 upgrade ;) )

Hervé
07-26-2003, 02:49 AM
....at what time is the streaming going to start ??

Hervé

hopicus
07-26-2003, 08:06 AM
hey yeah,... good question... what time does the streaming start? if i miss the demo of the multible undos in layout im going to be all kinds of none to happy...:D

Stranahan
07-26-2003, 08:09 AM
The streaming should start from the show floor at SIGGRAPH, Tuesday morning.

Hervé
07-26-2003, 09:59 AM
Thanks Lee, aahhh what to do without Lee...
Also NT should tell you thanks, because I am going to finally buy that DXF deal Because of Your tuts...

Thanks again....

milkman
07-26-2003, 12:13 PM
NOOOOOO! I'm not even going to be home to watch the streaming :(

ugggggggggh.

edit: scratch that... yes i am!!!! :D

KOlson
07-26-2003, 09:20 PM
So NewTek has Ino on board, so 8 will have FXBreak, MotionDrive, Distortion etc etc, what about JetStream FX?

cresshead
07-27-2003, 04:24 AM
is there only onebandwidth of the live feed at siggraph?

would be nice to have a lo bandwidth as well at the full screen version for anyone limited to a dialup account.

steve g

Bangladesh
07-30-2003, 06:54 AM
With all this talk about dynamics; will LW [8] have better solutions for fluid-dynamics? Anybody know if it's even something to consider in the new version?

KOlson
07-30-2003, 07:06 AM
After seeing some vids of the new IK system I was blown away.. I can't wait to get my hands on this.

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8552

what do ya say NewTek? Please? :)