PDA

View Full Version : 3dworld jay roth interview re: 9.5



jin choung
04-02-2008, 02:02 PM
http://www.3dworldmag.com/page/3dworld?entry=q_a_with_newtek_s

some details including an interesting bit at the end.

but in my book, unless the pace and content of development changes radically (and i mean RADICALLY), that might well be an opportune point where i choose to check out for blender.

jin

Steamthrower
04-02-2008, 02:05 PM
Good for you, because XSI, Max, Maya, and C4D all have worse upgrade policies then Newtek will.

archijam
04-02-2008, 02:08 PM
Good for you, because XSI, Max, Maya, and C4D all have worse upgrade policies then Newtek will.

Agreed.

geothefaust
04-02-2008, 02:10 PM
jin did you really have to post this? It's been mentioned in other threads. Can't you voice your opinion in the existing threads? :rolleyes:

adamredwoods
04-02-2008, 04:03 PM
that might well be an opportune point where i choose to check out for blender.

Yes Blender is rad.... BUT I strongly feel there will be a point where developers get tired or splinter off to start another 3D app-- and Blender will die a slow death.

Paid software vs. Open source:
Open source tends to knock off "low-rung" software, but never the top dollar stuff. You get what you pay for.

calilifestyle
04-02-2008, 04:10 PM
"3DW: It seems like there are a lot of new tools for free. This is quite a different approach to the fees Maxon and Autodesk would charge. What is NewTek's motivation for giving away free character animation tools?"

did i miss something what new CAT items where added other then (AKA up vector)/joints

jin choung
04-02-2008, 04:12 PM
Good for you, because XSI, Max, Maya, and C4D all have worse upgrade policies then Newtek will.

as a guy who uses maya everyday at work....

agree absolutely.

long have i said that the only 3d app that is affordable to an individual is lightwave. all the other apps, have pretty high price points to begin with but if you count in TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP, it becomes ridiculous. ludicrous.

large businesses may be enamored with autodesk's rapid development and constant upgrades... but if you factor in how much each of those upgrades are combined with how frequent - forget it.

(i'm at a midsize studio now and even though maya 2008 has some useful, relevant features for what we're doing, we're going without)

ugh and don't get me started about "complete, unlimited, lite, pro, etc" versioning. ugh. what is this, hair gel?

but adobe finally got their sh1t together and got rid of the "standard" vs "pro" versions in after effects thank goodness, hopefully, the 3d industry will follow suit.

so for many reasons, yep, lw was the only affordable app for individual users.

and if that changes, i only hope for their sake that the level of their game changes commensurately.

new, more well heeled target audience comes with it even stiffer demands alas and even more frequent comparisons to ever closer priced competitors.

and on the flipside, even greater breathing room for blender coming up from below - which may end up catching the niche of individuals, prosumers and non-independently wealthy.

jin

Cageman
04-02-2008, 04:29 PM
Search-function can do wonderful things:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82282

jin choung
04-02-2008, 04:36 PM
Yes Blender is rad.... BUT I strongly feel there will be a point where developers get tired or splinter off to start another 3D app-- and Blender will die a slow death.

Paid software vs. Open source:
Open source tends to knock off "low-rung" software, but never the top dollar stuff. You get what you pay for.

lol. that's a pretty dire and certain forecast there. it doesn't at all call your impartiality or credibility into question.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

i've said it before, i'll say it again: linux.

may not be a huge presence on consumer desktops but in terms of IT infrastructure in everything from government institutions, internet backbone, financial institutions, etc etc... it thrives.

if m$ is afraid... that says something. and i imagine everyone who has a vested interest in commercial development say what they say out of fear.

the viability of free software is, i believe, not in question.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

and just for good measure, here's some more top notch, industry standard free stuff:

gcc
python
apache
firefox
pidgin
skype

...

and a little thing called "google" (and their legion of free stuff).

and all of them in dire danger of factionalizing, splintering and dying slow death.....

"you get what you pay for" indeed.

jin

pumeco
04-02-2008, 04:40 PM
Good for you, because XSI, Max, Maya, and C4D all have worse upgrade policies then Newtek will.
:agree:
Absolutely, and I'm curious if any of those has a worse upgrade policy than C4D has.
NewTek has the fairest upgrade policy I've ever seen for any professional 3D app.

Lightwolf
04-02-2008, 04:42 PM
and just for good measure, here's some more top notch, industry standard free stuff:

...
skype
...

Nitpicking again... but somehow it doesn't match the rest of the list. Free to use, yes. Free software, no.

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
04-02-2008, 04:51 PM
... maybe somebody can point me to the mentioned tutorial on the Lightwave3D website?

I was also asking in this thread http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82363
but no response

sorry, i have no idea what the article is talking about either....

jin

Steamthrower
04-02-2008, 05:46 PM
I think that the main thing here is why gripe? We're at the best possible position. We all paid around $900 for Lightwave. I spent $150 more for Maestro. Even if I bought Fprime and Sasquatch (which I won't, not Mac compatible, anyway the 9.5 hair is awesome) I'd still come out ahead of a C4D user or a Maya user.

Even if I have to pay a few hundred bucks to upgrade LW, so what? What does Maya cost to upgrade? Price of a car!?!?

jin choung
04-02-2008, 05:52 PM
again, i agree.

that's why i'm eyeing blender.

BTW, i'm not talking about the cost of a traditional lw upgrade. read the end of the interview if you didn't.

jin

jin choung
04-02-2008, 05:55 PM
Nitpicking again... but somehow it doesn't match the rest of the list. Free to use, yes. Free software, no.

Cheers,
Mike

refuting the nitpick:

how did i introduce that list? not as open source. but free.

to counter the contention "you get what you pay for".

google is not open source either.

jin

p.s. and forgot to add:

winamp

bit torrent

java

adamredwoods
04-02-2008, 07:14 PM
Jin qouted;

"you get what you pay for" indeed.

I guess I was referring more to software where there is a spectrum of price differencials, rather than the ENTIRE spectrum of freebies. (ie. web browsers)


and a little thing called "google" (and their legion of free stuff).
I would say there's a few trade-offs with Google's software. An internet connection being one of them.

Anyhow-- before you being refuting these points-- I was staying more along the lines of Blender vs. paid 3D software.... Which I do feel Blender will disrupt the industry model, but in the long run (being years out) developers will lose interest unless Adobe or M$ flips the bill. All software goes through lifecycles, Blender is no exception. It's in its prime now-- but how long before K3D & Renderman supplants it? (half joke)

I think paid software commits a user to stick with one thing and use it. Free software tends to make people jump around, looking for the next best thing.

jin choung
04-02-2008, 08:01 PM
All software goes through lifecycles, Blender is no exception. It's in its prime now-- but how long before K3D & Renderman supplants it? (half joke)

right but this is not unique to blender either. might as well say the same thing about lw and maya - at which point it's not really saying much at all.

and even when there are commercial alternatives there's plenty of free versions that can go toe to toe. open office, linux, inkscape, wings, and now blender.

as for predictions of loss of interest... well, it's BEEN YEARS. years and years. and i don't see anything but continuous and ever more rapid growth. sure, it COULD all dry up soon. but that's like saying someone who's healthy is going to die soon-

a speculative statement that's possible but based on NOTHING.

anyhoo, blender's been making tremendous and continuous upward strides. it's leaps and bounds above what it was when it only had vertices as selectable geometry sub-objects and it's now at a level where it can create (by proof - they're showing it - not even asking us to take their word for it) professional results.

you seem to be of the opinion that free and open source is subject to an entropy that commercial software is not. you're welcome to your opinions of course.

but i don't see it.

and the fact that lots of people just tend to stick with something not because it's objectively better but simply because they know the interface or the sdk - well this force of inertia will keep people in blender as it keeps people in lw or windows or whatever.

yeah, i don't see anything at all in the tea leaves portending doom.

jin

rakker16mm
04-02-2008, 08:31 PM
i've said it before, i'll say it again: linux.


the viability of free software is, i believe, not in question.

:agree: but with some provisos and caveats. Open source software survives and prospers for the same reason any other software does, and that is because enough people find it useful. If enough people find the software useful there will be an incentive to continue development, and continued development will attract more users... and hopefully the cycle will continue.

Now just because Linux is doing well, and is open source and free, it does not necessarily follow that Blender will succeed because it is open source and free. Blender does not have as wide a user base as Linux and its UI is much more difficult to learn. CGI artists are a subset of all computer users, and Blender users are subset of all CGI artists. This translates to a very small number when compared to Linux users who are only a subset of all computer users.

Now if Blender ever develops a UI that is not so painfully labyrinth like as the one it has now, :bangwall: and more CGI artists use it as a result, then yes I think Blender has a very bright future :beerchug: Right now however? Not so much ;)

Snosrap
04-02-2008, 09:00 PM
Quote from Jay in article, "For existing LightWave v9.x license holders, these tools ARE FREE! NewTek has provided free ?.x? releases for some years now, although this may not continue beyond the LightWave v9 series.":thumbsdow
Please NO! Don't change your long standing policy, Jay!

Snosrap

jin choung
04-02-2008, 10:07 PM
Now just because Linux is doing well, and is open source and free, it does not necessarily follow that Blender will succeed because it is open source and free.

of course. but i think that adam's contention is that because it is free, it is bound to fail compared to commercial software.

check out the peach - big buck bunny trailer. this is going to convince a LOT of people that blender is ready for prime time. if you haven't seen it, go watch the trailer and come back. seriously, it is that good. look at that fur! even on hair tests, it blows fiberfx out of the water! and it's FREE!

it's convinced me.

and you're right, user interest drives development but it goes the other way too - development drives interest (as in the big buck bunny example). and in any case, the current feedback loop is POSITIVE.

and blender DOES have the MASS and MOMENTUM right now so as to not disappear tomorrow.

blender has an "INSTITUTE", blender has had the user base and name recognition to BUY ITSELF OUT FROM BEING A PRIVATE PRODUCT TO BECOME OPEN SOURCE!

blender has a founder and guru (ton roosendal) who, like linus or even bill or steve) defines a vision and acts as a catalyst.

and they've proved themselves time and again already.

they needed to raise money (hundreds of thousands if i remember correctly) to do it. and they did it. it WAS NOT open source at one time.

it has a store and products and books that you can find in your local bookstore (not super common for even commercial 3d programs!).

OF COURSE blender has a smaller user base than linux. that's like saying maya has a smaller user base than winxp.

whatever you feel about the interface, like zbrush, the results will eventually win people over (did you see BBB yet?) and 2.5 will allow tremendous customizability. i felt the same way about zbrush AND blender and to both, although i still don't find it ideal, i find now that it is NOT AT ALL unusable.

it HAS the mass and momentum now. it really is not going anywhere.

jin

p.s. and i believe in ton. he seems to have a lot of smart ideas. he plans on making blender ubiquitous by allowing it to fit into any workflow, any pipeline.

make it sooo customizable and configurable that you can use it as a seat in your maya modeling dept. or if you need a seat of just a dynamics simulator in your xsi pipeline, you can setup blender to be that.

REALLY make it a blender... trying to make it so configurable it can be all things to all people.

love that. smart.

adamredwoods
04-02-2008, 11:03 PM
Jin,

I think your latest statements better support your positioning with Blender's success. It's a good summation. :)


but i think that adam's contention is that because it is free, it is bound to fail compared to commercial software.

Not fail-- but rather offer a good FUTURE. Blender, being free, leaves its FUTURE to chance. Developers interest, developer's "vision", number of developers, skill of developers, bicycle safety, etc.

Blender, right now, is unusable for me. I am not willing to invest (time) in a product that could be supplanted if.... say.... Avid buys out Ton and his knowledge, and more importantly, his time.

Granted, this can happen to any product. But I suspect that if a product is making money, it'll be better supported and it's FUTURE will have a better chance than if a product is free.

Again, I understand your position better from your latest statements.


yeah, i don't see anything at all in the tea leaves portending doom.
Agreed-- future's in the tea leaves. But if those leaves show dollar signs, then I'd say the grass is greener on that side.

Phil
04-02-2008, 11:06 PM
I don't care if they charge for substantial feature-based updates. I really don't. If it means we get fluids and a very much improved animation system (e.g. NLA considerations present right from the very beginning), along with vastly improved workflow and performance in areas like dynamics, I really don't mind. I guess the Modeler users out there will also be anxious to see how this side of things progresses.

9.x has done a lot in 2+ years for the initial upgrade fee. The improvements to the rendering, surfacing and lighting systems won't have been cheap in terms man hours. For the upgrade fee, it's not been particularly bad, even if the progress hasn't been in all those areas people wanted to see addressed.

So....berating the people at NewTek already seems harsh. We'll all have to wait to see what approach they take and how they deal with the problems still in LW (particularly with regard to animation, in my case, and modelling, in others').

However, I would seriously question any policy that forces the user to pay for bug fixes. If they can unbundle the bug fixes from the feature changes, and provide the bug fixes as free updates for at least one revision older than current (e.g. 10.0 if 10.1 is the current release), I would be fine.

ikarth
04-03-2008, 12:11 AM
I am searching what Jay is talking about "developed by Lee Stringer showcased by William Vaughan on the LightWave3D website" what does he mean? can msomebody help me please :-)

I could have sworn I saw this. Or maybe it hasn't been posted yet?

Maybe this one?
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/multimedia/movies/w3dw/Joint.mov

Probably not this one:
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/ikb_stretchy_rig.mov

jin choung
04-03-2008, 12:28 AM
Avid buys out Ton and his knowledge, and more importantly, his time.


i think i've heard you utter this sentiment before but, and i want to be clear on this:

THIS ACTUALLY CANNOT EVER HAPPEN.

fyi: http://www.blender.org/education-help/faq/gpl-for-artists/#c2128

that's what the gnu general public license guarantees in part.

it would be IMPOSSIBLE to secure the rights of EVERY SINGLE BLENDER CONTRIBUTOR IN THE HISTORY OF THE APP to make blender a CLOSED APP.

this is a COMPLETELY mistaken notion and in this regard, it is MORE secure from either complicit or hostile takeover than a COMMERCIAL APP.

if autodesk wanted to do a hostile takeover of softimage, softimage being a public company (is it? i believe it is... anyway you get the idea), it COULD.

no matter HOW MUCH MONEY AUTODESK OR GOOGLE OR M$ THREW AT BLENDER, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to make it a closed app. even if they could buy out ton... and in my mind, this is AS LIKELY AS M$ BUYING OUT LINUS TORVALDS!

so it has even more shot at a FUTURE than commercial apps from public corporations.

i hope that's clear now.

jin

jin choung
04-03-2008, 12:37 AM
But if those leaves show dollar signs, then I'd say the grass is greener on that side.

that's the traditional capitalist position and as i say, everyone is free to hold their beliefs.

but linux and the free and open source software movement (examples which i have already cited) it is a part of and bolsters present a strong argument to the contrary.

jin

rakker16mm
04-03-2008, 01:04 AM
p.s. and i believe in ton. he seems to have a lot of smart ideas. he plans on making blender ubiquitous by allowing it to fit into any workflow, any pipeline.

make it sooo customizable and configurable that you can use it as a seat in your maya modeling dept. or if you need a seat of just a dynamics simulator in your xsi pipeline, you can setup blender to be that.

REALLY make it a blender... trying to make it so configurable it can be all things to all people.

love that. smart.

You raise a lot of good points, and covered some of the best aspects of Blender. I love free tools, though when I can I still pay for them by donating. I especially love it when they work well with other software and do some very cool stuff as I admit Blender does. I really like some of the fluid sims I have been seeing online. The fluid dynamics would really help me in the project I am working on at the moment but that UI is truly one tough nut to crack. If the goal is to make Blender ubiquitous making the UI more intuitive should be a top priority. like I said before if ton can fix that there will be no stopping Blender, and that would be a huge leap forward for CGI in general.

Was it Jean Cocteau who said that "the cinema will only become an art when its raw materials are as cheap as paper and pencil."? It looks to me like Blender has already past that mark some time ago, but for CGI I think the tools need to become as easy as using paper and pencils as well.

colkai
04-03-2008, 02:47 AM
I don't get how people can produce the likes of Blender for free but I'm sure glad they do.
I have on my HD a lot of freeware and if I ever need anything, places like snapfiles.com are my first port of call.

I agree with Jin, there is a lot of good freeware / open source out there which, simply because it is what it is, will be more "protected" than oh, I dunno, say the likes of a big app like Motionbuilder which was passed around from pillar to post by buy-outs.

A lot of these authors tend to treat software like mountaineering and do things just because folks say they can't be done.

Let's face it, look at all the amazing free 3rd party plugs for LW, similar thing really.

Granted Blender is larger in scale, but Povray was the birthplace of much 3D interest and it remains free and how long has that been out?

Heck, Povray had media / volumetrics long before most other packages but yet that talent / code was not bought out.

I think as Jin does, if anything, freeware could well be more secure in the future, it would be a draw for a lot of people wanting to get into 3D. We suffer more because be it Lw, Maya or XSI, we look at it with biased eyes of what we are expecting.

If you were just getting into 3D now, wouldn't you invest time in a FREE package which gave you almost as many features as something costing thousands and had a non-linear editor in it to boot?

JBT27
04-03-2008, 03:42 AM
sorry, i have no idea what the article is talking about either....

jin

One of William Vaughan's tutorials recently was about rigging an elbow joint for stretchiness - I think that's what is being mentioned.....I think.....the movie filename is Joint.mov. Search in the search-thingy that Chuck created for that first round of tutorials.

Julian.

Skonk
04-03-2008, 04:32 AM
I dont really have an issue with paid point releases but lightwave would have to show improvements that justify it.

We all know Lightwave has issues in some areas but we forgive it because it's not a massivly expensive package and when we buy it, we buy into the version cycle which includes the promise of new features along the way.

I would hope the extra money would go into buying in more talent (to add to the current talent) so the development can speed up.

I think if a noticable difference isn't made after these upgrades stop being free then newteks customers would start to lose the loyalty they had for the package. That said, i think if the money is used wisely then it could definatly bring lightwave back to the top of the foodchain.

Skonk.

IMI
04-03-2008, 04:37 PM
I'm thinking, look how long it took to go from 9.0 to 9.5 - a free upgrade. If they were to begin charging for point releases I'd imagine they'd want to make sure everything is perfect and there were enough new features to justify it.
How long would that take to go from release to release?

But it looks to me he might have been suggesting they're considering no new point releases, period.

H_Molla
04-03-2008, 05:02 PM
Jay.....to be honest; i did not like this reply :

" Instead, they are small shops who need to bang out great looking work as quickly as possible "

&

" If you have a large budget, a lot of time, and are doing a feature film with a creature that no one has ever seen before, then perhaps light wave v9.5 may not be the best choice for this situation. However, if you have just a few weeks, a few people, and limited finances, the light wave is made for you. And I suspect that there are many more of the latter out there than the former?"

you know why...
i will not talking about my self or any one at this forum..

but hay..open Digital Domain & open the commercials/making off & you will clearly see in the videos that Light wave is used a lot by a big company or as other usually say a MILLION Dollars post house in USA..

so what dose that mean....that Light wave is not a limited finances software..cause this people can write there own software & they will not wait for Free or not Free upgrade..!!

i will not tell you that till today my company is doing work other big post houses ( and i mean BIG ) in Egypt is woundring how this is done by light wave..

they all working with LALA RAY & JERRY RAY & blaaablaaa blaaa

but now one know that this package is standing in front of big name..

but what we want now..!!
i want to be able to do charter animation as 123 as the people of MAX can do..
what i want do is be abel if i have
the luxury of time & money to write my LW MEL to do what ever i dream off..
what i want do is having the fastest & best & OPEN render engine that give worley & who every want to enhance the quality & speed on my picture..
i want the KRAY guy to make this engine 200% compatible with LW 9.5 9.7 9.8 or even 20

i don`t want to be the 3rd or 4th option in the market..
i remember that day`s that i was working with my Amiga 4096 color & the PC was just floating in there green scale monitors..

KEEP ON LW UP...
i am just one of the people who was depressed with this interview..cause this marked word hurt my softwares that i am very loyal to it from about 10 years or more ( since this 1st Amiga non toaster dongol copy by the way... )..

watch out khaled el mahrouky work by the way..
is is brilliant artist..

jayroth
04-03-2008, 05:20 PM
Sorry if my statements were a concern to you. Yes, we do have many large facilities as LW customers. however, we have so many more who fit the profile I described. We are developing LW for such a large cross section. I think the larger facilities are just as happy with 9.5 as everyone else. No need for you to be alarmed.

jasonwestmas
04-03-2008, 06:04 PM
Not to assume anything but you seem to have lumped the 3D customers into two categories Jay: 1) The fast decent work loaders who have no time for details and 2) The Script Surgeons who are never interested in Deadlines, just two year projects. LW being of the #1 category. I don't think you really meant that but it sounded like it.

Dirk
04-04-2008, 04:30 AM
I wonder what could be created with Lightwave if it would get the same amount of resources, time and manpower as "the other software" usually gets.

A single user can produce stuff like this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=svPh24I7wV0

or another one can create creatures like those

http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/community/lightwave/powers/3.html


We shouldn't aim to low, imho.

globalnode
04-04-2008, 04:55 AM
To me... That article from Jay sounded like NT finally coming clean and saying that they have no intentions of competing on the same level as Maya, XSI, MAX or blender... Wish they would have said that 3 years ago!

globalnode
04-04-2008, 05:08 AM
This account has been banned.

globalnode
04-04-2008, 05:19 AM
Nah, thats all for today Bo! Tell moms I said hi...
Your work is what is sad... You have lots of posts on here for such sad work! You would think you would be better at LW after 3000 post on the NT forum! Not a quik learner are you?

globalnode
04-04-2008, 05:33 AM
No need for forgiveness... Not all can have talent! I wonder how many post you have on the forum of something you are actually good at?

globalnode
04-04-2008, 05:37 AM
To me... That article from Jay sounded like NT finally coming clean and saying that they have no intentions of competing on the same level as Maya, XSI, MAX or blender... Wish they would have said that 3 years ago!


And just for the record... Do you see neverko or Bo anywhere in this post? What are you the NT forum police man?

starbase1
04-04-2008, 05:47 AM
This is one where I hope to be proved wrong, but I think that open source / free for 3d graphics software is MUCH more challenging than the areas where it has had good success.

These tend to be where the market is more mature, for example office suites, web browsers, email software. What is required is extremely clearly defined, and there are a limited number of popular formats to handle. I don't know anyone who is passionate about which office suite they use...

With 3d we have mess of proprietary formats, no well established tool sets, no agreed workflow, etc.

This is partly what makes it exciting and interesting - a new release of any major 3d application is likely to bring surprises. Most people I know therefore end up using a mix of tools, perhaps LW as core, but maybe Vue for ecosystems, Terragen 2 for skies, or, the love that dare not speak its name, poser for character work. :devil:

2d bitmap software seems to be stabilising on feature sets somewhat though there is still a way to go. Now that the target is not moving so fast, I'm expecting GIMP will start to catch up somewhat, (I know, long way to go...)

One of the most encouraging things I see in this area though is the way that some open source projects are now maintaining an impressive rate of progress. I'd put Blender and Ubuntu at the front of that group.

There's also a lot going on at the system level - I'm thinking of things like OS virtualisation systems getting serious backing from the likes of IBM.

I think we are entering a VERY interesting period in the development of our software and OS's, and that we can expect lots of exciting change in the next couple of years!

Nick

hrgiger
04-04-2008, 06:43 AM
As far as Jays comments, I don't see anything that should really rock our boat, especially yet. There may be plans to start charging for upgrades, well, that's something a lot of us don't necessarily disagree with. We still don't know the what the final state of Lightwave 9.x anyway. I dont' mind paying for upgrades, provided of course, the upgrades are worth paying for. I have a few concerns about it and maybe Jay can address it, even if vaguely, although, I'm not expecting anything now.

Are we going to have to wait longer for updates? I guess I'm hoping that with added revenue that Lgihtwave can actually expand their developer base some and either speed up development, or spread the updates to include more areas of the program. For instance, the 9.5 update seems to have ignored much of modeler, at least on the surface anyway. If Newtek wants its userbase to start paying for upgrades, I would think they would have to include more areas of the program so there would be a little bit of most or all areas of the program seeing improvements.

Also, if I choose not to upgrade to say 10.2 but then want 10.3, will I Have to pay double since it's essentially 2 upgrades I'm paying for? I'm figuring it's probably going to be the case but I'm asking anway. It's probably not even been worked out yet.

As far as Jays comments and whether they were revealing about the place of Lightwave in the industry, I don't see it. Lightwave has always has it's advantages and disadvantages with all the other apps which gives it a place, and I don't see that changing any time soon. It's not going to win or lose some phantom app war.

andrew_y
04-04-2008, 08:12 AM
There is no need for name calling and other "phrases" within the NewTek forums.
I am a fair man, and believe everyone deserves the opportunity to make amends with some of their actions. But only once. To repeat the same behaviour over and over is a call to action for said "NT forum police". Since this is my first time getting involved with the referee duties of this forum, (only because my in-box was full of "reported posts") I would expect to see some sort of "amends". I speak for myself only.

However, if, for some reason, one cannot control how they behave within the NT forums, then the proper action to continue to clean up and optimize the forums will proceed.

Carry on.

KillMe
04-04-2008, 08:48 AM
i really dont think they can justify charging for the 9.1 9.2 type releases - so i assume we will still get those for free or not at all and will simply get a 9.5 payed release - for example this 9.5 release sees some cool new toys etc so it might warrant a paid upgrade but maybe 9.2 didn't

anywya shame to see all the free upgrades go - will probally end up getting left behind - i dont use lw professionally anymore changed carreer completely but i still like to have the latest upto date version - but doubt i will pay for all the inbetweens will jsut stick with the main releases

on that note though if you upgrade from 10 to 10.5 for a fee when you upgrade from 10.5 to 11 do you pay less or the same as someone who stuck at 10 to wait for 11?

AbnRanger
04-04-2008, 08:50 AM
If they did start charging for point release upgrades then there won't likely be anymore of the x.2 or 3. Just .5, and I'd say that, based on recent history, Newtek will offer plenty of features/improvements to justify a small update fee.

jasonwestmas
04-04-2008, 08:55 AM
I'll pay a reasonable price for an upgrade. With the larger companies, this upgrade issue and the huge expense of MR is why I tend to shun Autodesk obviously. That's probably the #1 reason why people are using Lightwave.

OOZZEE
04-04-2008, 09:12 AM
If they did start charging for point release upgrades then there won't likely be anymore of the x.2 or 3. Just .5, and I'd say that, based on recent history, Newtek will offer plenty of features/improvements to justify a small update fee.

so the version release better be a bug free version or there will be lots of angry angry users.

my suggestion to NT is to keep the free .x policy but for bugs and small needed improvements but keep any newly added features and major improvements for the version release ( example FiberFX could have been kept for v10..... but in this case, not after all the promises previously made )....

it would make more sense to me doing this cause they wouldnt piss-off no one in the current user base and still attract lots of upgraders and new users at version release time. win-win situation IMO.

JBT27
04-04-2008, 12:41 PM
I feel alot safer with NT looking like they are initiating a paid upgrade point release for 10.x and beyond.....it always worried me when they were so generous with Vue 5 Infinite, DFX+ before that and goodness knows what - very greatly appreciated but I always wondered and worried what it had cost them to do such things.

I use LW because I like it and it suits me - not because it's cheaper. I don't get any sense from Jay's interview of reining in and allowing others to move on without competition from LW.....horses for courses in any case: as is said so many times, things like Maya are often for larger teams, more scripting/coding savvy artists, and so on. LW is for individuals and smaller houses - it's not crippled or crippling, and like anyone else doing this for a living, I have it as the core app but not the sole app.

As for catching up.....well sure, LW needs to pick up the pace.....but there are other apps that would very nicely benefit by some of LW's newer features, no matter how famous those apps are .....

There are very interesting times coming for sure. :)

Julian.

jasonwestmas
04-04-2008, 01:18 PM
But Julian, don't you think the renderer is a complete steal when compared to Mental Ray and Render Man? I mean common, the other tools are nice too but the price of LW is just so attractive and the quality is good. . .getting faster too. Do you really prefer lightwave because it's sleeker and sexier etc? Would you still use it if it were the same price as the other apps?

starbase1
04-04-2008, 01:47 PM
Hold on guys, nothing definite was said, either way...

It's all up for grabs.

And I don't think that free point releases are without their benefits for Newtek either - people are a lot less picky about bugs if they know a free upgrade is in the pipeline.

Also, people get upset if they have to buy a paid upgrade to get a bugfix, which can easily lead to maintaining several versions and releasing a big fix for every release that's out there...

And anyway, given that the prices for a full upgrade are so reasonable, those nice Newtek people are hardly likely to try and milk us dry for a point release, now are they.

frantbk
04-04-2008, 02:10 PM
To me... That article from Jay sounded like NT finally coming clean and saying that they have no intentions of competing on the same level as Maya, XSI, MAX or blender... Wish they would have said that 3 years ago!

To me... that article sounded like NT wasn't going to follow the pack, maya, xsi, max, or blender. That NT has an idea what the customers want and that is not Lightwave(3D max), Lightwave(Maya), lightwave(blender). I don't know how you can up with this idea that NT has no intention of competing. I read the article and it sounded like NT is going to compete by giving there customers what they want, not what 3Dmax, Maya, Blender, Cinema 4D, or Modo have to offer. Maybe I'm wrong?

frantbk
04-04-2008, 02:14 PM
Hold on guys, nothing definite was said, either way...

It's all up for grabs.

And I don't think that free point releases are without their benefits for Newtek either - people are a lot less picky about bugs if they know a free upgrade is in the pipeline.

Also, people get upset if they have to buy a paid upgrade to get a bugfix, which can easily lead to maintaining several versions and releasing a big fix for every release that's out there...

And anyway, given that the prices for a full upgrade are so reasonable, those nice Newtek people are hardly likely to try and milk us dry for a point release, now are they.

Maybe NT intends to do like Luxology. Service releases are free for customers with the most current version. Anyone with a version older then the current version will have to pay for the upgrade. Like that other company, when there is a complete number change 9-to-10 everyone will be required to buy, and probably there will be pre-order discounts for early buyers.

Steamthrower
04-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Maybe NT intends to do like Luxology. Service releases are free for customers with the most current version. Anyone with a version older then the current version will have to pay for the upgrade. Like that other company, when there is a complete number change 9-to-10 everyone will be required to buy, and probably there will be pre-order discounts for early buyers.

Isn't that how it works with NT now, as it is?

calilifestyle
04-04-2008, 02:44 PM
Maybe Nt is going to go public

hrgiger
04-04-2008, 02:47 PM
I hope we'll be offered IPOs then...

Cageman
04-04-2008, 02:48 PM
To me... That article from Jay sounded like NT finally coming clean and saying that they have no intentions of competing on the same level as Maya, XSI, MAX or blender... Wish they would have said that 3 years ago!

What!?

The only thing I read was the fact that LW9.5 currently isn't the best choice for certain types of work. I did NOT see anything indicating that NT will not improve LightWave so that it can do those certain types of work as well.

Did we actually read the same article/QA session?

f9crashf9crash
04-04-2008, 03:05 PM
He was left speechless.

archijam
04-04-2008, 03:20 PM
Welcome back globalnode. Love the new ID ;)

frantbk
04-04-2008, 09:53 PM
Isn't that how it works with NT now, as it is?

Well then maybe you will have a 3D Max like subscription to buy into. Ask Jay Roth to clarify his statement. What does it mean that after 9.5 it might not be a free upgrade?

Steamthrower
04-04-2008, 10:02 PM
Service releases are free for customers with the most current version. Anyone with a version older then the current version will have to pay for the upgrade. Like that other company, when there is a complete number change 9-to-10 everyone will be required to buy

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but what you just described is how we currently buy LightWave. On every "complete number change" we pay an upgrade price. And the "points", i.e. 9.2, 9.3, and 9.5, are free.

This is how it is now, and apparently soon those point releases will cost to upgrade. It's not like you'll have to pay $600 to upgrade each of those points, I'm sure.

And of course it won't be like you have to upgrade. Just upgrade at a point release when you feel comfortable with the upgrade price to feature list ratio.

All of the above are assumptions, of course. In no way did Jay imply that NT is leaning towards a subscription-based model like Autodesk uses. Or Autocrat. I prefer the latter.

Steamthrower
04-04-2008, 10:05 PM
Upon second thought, perhaps you might look at LightWave's point releases as not merely bug fixes and service updates. They actually add functionality. LW 9.5 is adding fur, lights, rigging, and more.

I seriously doubt NT will make current LW owners pay a full $900 to upgrade to v10 when it comes along.

IMI
04-05-2008, 12:17 AM
He was left speechless.
Last edited by Paul Lara : Yesterday at 06:11 PM.

"he was left speechless"
That's hilarious! :lol:

Gotta say one thing about this place, the mods definitely have a sense of humor. :)

jin choung
04-05-2008, 12:51 AM
the fairest way to do it is the way we have been doing it-

charge just for the INTEGER VERSIONS and all floatingpoint versions are free.

the way M$ does it.

the way ADOBE does it.

the way NEWTEK evidently DID it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PROBLEM IS: newtek has gotten into the habit of promising and delivering a lot during point upgrades.

whereas the REASONABLE THING TO DO would be to simply fix all bugs and optimize existing features during the version's life cycle such that version x.9 would be as near to bug free as possible, they let some bugs roam rampant as they add features during point releases.

with version 9, they got STUCK because they overpromised on what version 9 was going to be and so they had to start playing catch up DURING THE LIFECYCLE to recoup community trust.

but it's not, imo, a great way to go. evidently, this is how they intend to proceed (speculation) if they intend on charging for point updates. otherwise, who in their right mind would pay for mere bug fixes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but i suspect they feel they have to go this way because it's a way to get more money more frequently. reel them in with flashy frequent feature additions instead of focusing on the more prosaic bug fixing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what i would LIKE to see is that they stick with their previous model AND instead of adding big features DURING a product's lifecycle, SAVE IT for the next upgrade.

instead, use the free point upgrades to clean up your program and not leave it in a consistent state of disrepair.

but that's what i want. merely. bears absolutely no essential relationship to reality.... so do as you will.

jin

Cageman
04-05-2008, 01:45 AM
what i would LIKE to see is that they stick with their previous model AND instead of adding big features DURING a product's lifecycle, SAVE IT for the next upgrade.

instead, use the free point upgrades to clean up your program and not leave it in a consistent state of disrepair.

but that's what i want. merely. bears absolutely no essential relationship to reality.... so do as you will.

jin

Hmm.. that sounds like a really, really neat idea. My only concern would be OB? Will it be canned? One solution would be to keep it as is though, and let users actually test the next release (not only point-upgrades) even if they havn't payed for it yet. Since OBs are timelimited, I really don't see a problem with that. Thinking about it, it could actually be quite beneficial because this gives users a chance to test (and feedback) the stuff that is going to be included in the next release and can decide if they want to buy it or not once it is released.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 03:02 AM
I read what Jay Roth says, and surely they know us, their "market". As he says it right there.


"However, if you have just a few weeks, a few people, and limited finances, the LightWave is made for you. And I suspect that there are many more of the latter out there than the former?"

And that is kinda in conflict with this one


"NewTek has provided free ?.x? releases for some years now, although this may not continue beyond the LightWave v9 series."

In the sense that, if we have limited finances, that they know we do, whats the point of charging for updates. How can NT target the "market" of the kind that they know we are, by charging for upgrades. Isnt that for Maya people?

Unless, the charge for upgrade isnt astronomic enough that would calm the conflictous statement above...

kopperdrake
04-05-2008, 04:03 AM
and just for good measure, here's some more top notch, industry standard free stuff:

gcc
python
apache
firefox
pidgin
skype

...

and a little thing called "google" (and their legion of free stuff).


Whilst skype and google are free in themselves, they're just the loss-leader portion of much bigger industries to suck us in - I pay for skype credit so I can phone real phones, anyone bought sketchup pro? These guys aren't in it for the benefit of any open source ideology.

Does blender have the same business philosophy? I don't know as I don't use it.

Not arguing against your main argument jin, just the list of 'free' progs/services isn't strictly speaking free - they're buying your 'goodwill' and 'potential'.

JBT27
04-05-2008, 04:11 AM
But Julian, don't you think the renderer is a complete steal when compared to Mental Ray and Render Man? I mean common, the other tools are nice too but the price of LW is just so attractive and the quality is good. . .getting faster too. Do you really prefer lightwave because it's sleeker and sexier etc? Would you still use it if it were the same price as the other apps?

Well, the renderer is an absolute steal - can't disagree with that :)

But I do genuinely prefer LW.....because I get stuff done with it.

It's not sleek, or sexy - in some areas it's a mess - but the point is, in my personal experience, it's the one app that has and still does allow me to do pretty much all I want.....bearing in mind I am not a character modeller or animator.

That said, I don't have great experience with alot of other apps. But one of the biggest and most costly mistakes I ever made was delving into Maya - this thread is not about Maya versus LW or anything else and why I couldn't get on with it like I can with LW, but suffice to say I couldn't. I spent two years grinding through projects with Maya, and frankly it was a chore. The crunch came on a project that Maya took many minutes to open, tens of minutes to render one frame, and interactivity that frankly was anything but.....now maybe some of that was my fault, but three weeks from the deadline for this film I exported all the geometry out of Maya, imported it into LW, rebuilt the scenes there and got the job done. LW rendered in tens of seconds against Maya's tens of minutes, it handled the 800,000 poly scene without any problems, and so on.....LW just worked where Maya fell flat on its face.

I work with one other person - we have two seats of LW, a seat of Modo and one of XSI Foundation, which I haven't yet really had too much time with. I have never worked in production or with teams of people with varied experiences of lots of tools and techniques, so I am very unfamiliar with medium and big studio practice and opinion as to what's hot and what's not. But I will equally say that I don't care :)

Without making this much longer, it is simply that LW works for me, completely for the work that we do, and then some. This week my colleague for the first time tried rigging; on Monday she was going through William Vaughan's tutorials and swearing alot, by yesterday she was still swearing alot but had the horse trotting along pulling the carriage with wheels turning and everything - that's a big deal for a real newbie to rigging and animation - I like Modo for its modelling and UV tools, but equally I find LW Modeler more precise and more intelligent in some of its ways, and I do alot of work in that as well. LW is the core of our work but not for its price.

So, you can get LW currently at 995 US Dollars - for me in the UK, OneVideo do the current special bundle with PDF manuals at about 570 Pounds inc our VAT. I don't expect 9.5 to go GM until late summer, going by previous OBs, and I will be very surprised if we see 10.x much before 2010. But what do I know? :D

It's not about the cost for me - I've sunk 15 years of learning and using LW into my living and it would take something substantially wrong to break that - NT going out of business, or LW bought out - I don't know what we'd do to be honest. Modo is not a contender yet, XSI I don't know well enough - C4D maybe.....I really don't want to go there to be honest, but NT are getting LW's act together I reckon, there must be a roadmap for 10.x and for all we know development has been underway for some time.

Seeing is believing - and when I see 10.x and believe in what it does, on the notion that it will have to be considerably advanced from the 9.x cycle, so more complete and efficient and stable CA, tighter and better dynamics including HVs, Modeler sorted out, and moving on from there.....then easily I would pay alot more for it. How much more is highly subjective - it needs to compete of course, and as other threads have said, support from marketing campaigns is critical.

Julian.

kopperdrake
04-05-2008, 04:11 AM
As for LW - I do agree with many on here in saying that I'd rather wait for the big releases in one major paid update, with perhaps a smaller free .5 update polishing off/extending existing tools/workflows and a couple of .2 and .7 bug fixes. If they went this route then a major update every year would be great, so they suck in a few hundred dollars off each of us every year but we get more solid tools in the process and none of the uncertainty of a new install regularly.

Having said that, I'm in no way ungrateful for the v9.x cycle - far from it. I saw it as a cycle that NT needed to do to play catch up after the last few years, and they've given us a lot that was needed and kept us happy in the process. I guess some wouldn't have paid for a lot of the upgrades through nine, depsite them being huge, as trust has had to be rebuilt. Perhaps trust is too strong a word, more like 'reassurance', that the new dev team will deliver.

I'm totally happy the new dev team has delivered, and will keep on delivering, and I look forward to the day if they decide to do it, to go back to a more standard upgrade path policy in calmer seas :)

hrgiger
04-05-2008, 04:14 AM
Seems like a lot of people want all the other things that come along with some of the more popular 3D apps. That is of course, all except the price.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 04:50 AM
Seems like a lot of people want all the other things that come along with some of the more popular 3D apps. That is of course, all except the price.

That was always the case wasnt it Hrgiger.

I mean perhaps it was all planned from the start.

Give away free upgrades, so as we could start asking for more, since it is free an all. And after a while when they know what we all want, they make them in the next release. You can have them, but its gonna costya now.

JBT27
04-05-2008, 05:16 AM
I read what Jay Roth says, and surely they know us, their "market". As he says it right there.



And that is kinda in conflict with this one



In the sense that, if we have limited finances, that they know we do, whats the point of charging for updates. How can NT target the "market" of the kind that they know we are, by charging for upgrades. Isnt that for Maya people?

Unless, the charge for upgrade isnt astronomic enough that would calm the conflictous statement above...

But this is the classic length of a piece of string argument - at face value there is conflict between those two statements, but 'limited finances' does not equal no finances.

The markets for all of us are changing rapidly - you have to discount high-end big budget work because that is the domain of big studios with all their resources.

Bug-fixes should always be free - I don't want to pay for someone's mistakes - but enhancements and new features perhaps should carry a price. Sure, some stuff for free, inspiring loyalty and all that, but what if point-release upgrades are relatively low in price - I don't know, say $100? And there are more of them? I really don't know what's best.

The most expensive thing about any of these tools is the time and effort you expend learning them and becoming proficient and then expert. The whole notion of free 3D is rapidly being consumed by open-source, but NT must be well aware of this.....just because they don't openly discuss their business model and plans with us doesn't mean they don't have a clue!

Blender will set a minimum standard, and any commercial app will have to exceed that. As someone said earlier about Google and Sketchup - these are the freely usable public faces of a network of related things that do carry charges, and sooner or later, Blender will fall into that category. The idea of super high-end 3D apps being completely free, developed for free for the love of it by dedicated teams, is just not going to happen - same applies to all of 2D.

The old business model of selling more units for lower prices, because of lower prices is still very sound and possibly more relevant than ever.

Julian.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 05:26 AM
Of course your assuming that the release in LW10 whose updates will be charged now, WILL exceed Blenders tool which is free.

But what if it doesnt. And what if that release will contain somethings that are needed and some that arent. And the things that are needed are already in Blender. Should the LW update train leave without us who might not see the update reasonable?

cresshead
04-05-2008, 05:46 AM
i think blender will throw many people into a 'spin' in the near future...that's once the peach project is out on dvd so people can take a look at the work needed to create such characters and animations then compare to the workflow in x,y,z app like lightwave, modo, cinema4d max and xsi...currently blender is the only one of the bunch with fluids for example so it has a lead there already and it's making cinema4d and all it's modules look really expensive...anlso intersting to note that cinema4d has really sunk into the shadows again as an alternative to using lightwave...once a couple of years back it was the 'alternative'...now i hear zero about people moving to cinema from lightwave but that's been replaced with xsi foundation more or less i think.

re charging for updates for luightwave, well if that gains them the resources to bring modeler into layout with drag drop ik rigs and make a modern history based app that wipes the floor with modo then i'm all for it..just bill me!

cresshead
04-05-2008, 05:49 AM
the thing with blender it won't be a choice of buy a or buy b but put time aside to learn blender...there is no cost other than time so if your app and blender can interop well you'd be quite dumb not to look at blender for some tools.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 05:59 AM
Sure... Alot can happen till LW10. I may endup paying those bills too, depends on some circumstances.

But theres a definite risk there. That having Blender aside, and up to that update LW for rendering, some might stand back from charged LW updates. And if NT goes even further than that, like for instance applying even higher prices for greater leap updates like for instance from LW6 or 7 to 10 or 11, then its even worse. As people that havent payed for the updates and dont have them for a while now, wont pay even more now just to have it, and may even quit LW altogether.

Having a free app up there just works against all this Im afraid.

cresshead
04-05-2008, 06:11 AM
if newtek bring in charged point updates they'll just fall inline with maya, cinema4d, xsi, modo etc so nothing new as such...just joining what most of the others already do
if they also have a new price point scheme for 8 upgrade to 10 which is different from 9 to 10 then that too is already done everywhere...

bottom line is if they do this then newtek should have more money to spend on developing lightwave but with that they can't stay as a ''also ran'' they'll need to be leading the pack in some areas like they did back in 5.6 and 6.0 days...they'll need to really churn out a tip top lightwave 10 or 11 just adding unconnected 3rd party plugins will not do the trick.

for me i'll have to look at keeping 2 seat current...so i hope they deliver in lw10 or at least 1 seat will stay at 9.5 and i'll try to move wholsale to my other app or look at maya.

JBT27
04-05-2008, 06:14 AM
Yep, true enough. I have Blender installed.....I try to experiment with it when I can - all the talk everywhere and especially here makes me think I'd be stupid not to; I feel I almost have to start getting to grips with Blender so as not to get left behind come the day.....

Of course that also makes an awful lot of assumptions about Blender versus the rest. Again, discounting the big studios with their proprietary toolsets, are we seriously facing a point where Blender is more than enough to satisfy the workloads and artistic demands of individuals to small and medium fx houses?

If Blender has enough penetration to worryingly dent the income of NT and maybe Lux and who knows who else, I just wonder what that will do to the industry?

Right now I'm one of those who struggles to get past the interface of Blender, which I'm afraid instantly puts me off for now.....but - rtfm and practice I guess :)

If anything it ought to raise the bar for the commercial offerings, LW 10.x included.

Julian.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 06:29 AM
I think, LW10 should solve ALL problems if its gonna be a payable upgrade.
Water, cloths, dynamic, dynamite fire like, Maestro or that kind of animation with added control, Instancing etc.

Thats connecting the unconnected plugins and connecting the pricy plugins or finding a solution to that or similar to them plugins aswell.

Real solutions, like this latest fur. The more money they want, the more serious it should get. No more compromises and waiting for the good stuff since they were free like it was before.

IMI
04-05-2008, 06:46 AM
I think, LW10 should solve ALL problems if its gonna be a payable upgrade.


Of course LW 10 is going to be a "payable upgrade". It's not a point release, but a major new version.
You had to pay for 9.0, then 9.2, 9.3, 9.5...were all free point releases.
LW 10 will be the next full new version, and NT have always charged for those, at least as long as I've been using it, since 7.0

But anyhow, have I missed something? Did he give a new interview or press release where he said definitively that there will be no more free point releases?
Because in the interview it sounded like it was just something on the table which hadn't been decided yet. There seem to be several people here who seem to think this has already been announced as a new official policy....

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 06:58 AM
But anyhow, have I missed something? Did he give a new interview or press release where he said definitively that there will be no more free point releases?
Because in the interview it sounded like it was just something on the table which hadn't been decided yet. There seem to be several people here who seem to think this has already been announced as a new official policy....

That would be me. I think that interview there, is preperation to a decision that was made to come for LW10.

And this thread of course serves to see our views about it. Which its pretty clear so far. Its all talk until money is involved. If they want more then theyll have to bring more for a deal to come true.

BTW. I came to LW from 8.5 and I was eligable for 9.0 automatically. I didnt know that you guys pay for upgrades. I thought point releases as well as upgrades were free.

So how much was it till now to go from 8 to 9?

starbase1
04-05-2008, 06:58 AM
But anyhow, have I missed something? Did he give a new interview or press release where he said definitively that there will be no more free point releases?
Because in the interview it sounded like it was just something on the table which hadn't been decided yet. There seem to be several people here who seem to think this has already been announced as a new official policy....

Good grief, you are reading what he said and thinking about it!

Get out of this thread immediately, unless you are prepared to grab the wrong end of the stick, and start beating about the bush with it! Rational discussion has NO place in this thread!

IMI
04-05-2008, 07:16 AM
:lol:

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 07:17 AM
Hey Starbase1, hows it going...

Rational or irrational, two parts of the same Iceberg says Froyd you know :hey:

But what do you think? Is it fair to pay for poin releases?

IMI
04-05-2008, 07:35 AM
BTW. I came to LW from 8.5 and I was eligable for 9.0 automatically. I didnt know that you guys pay for upgrades. I thought point releases as well as upgrades were free.

So how much was it till now to go from 8 to 9?


Ah, I see. Yeah, I believe that if you get into it at a x.5 release you'd be eligible for a free upgrade to the next major release. I'd imagine that would continue, assuming the point releases continue.
Upgrade from 8.5 to 9.0 (for those who started with 8.0) was, I believe, 395 or 495 USD.

frantbk
04-05-2008, 07:39 AM
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but what you just described is how we currently buy LightWave. On every "complete number change" we pay an upgrade price. And the "points", i.e. 9.2, 9.3, and 9.5, are free.

This is how it is now, and apparently soon those point releases will cost to upgrade. It's not like you'll have to pay $600 to upgrade each of those points, I'm sure.

And of course it won't be like you have to upgrade. Just upgrade at a point release when you feel comfortable with the upgrade price to feature list ratio.

All of the above are assumptions, of course. In no way did Jay imply that NT is leaning towards a subscription-based model like Autodesk uses. Or Autocrat. I prefer the latter.

So you guy's think you should have free upgrades from 10.1-to-10.9? If each upgrade is once a year then you will receive 9 years of free programs. Add to that NewTek adding new functions during the 9 years. I think what Jay Roth is pointing to, is a new way of handling lightwave. I think what could happen is that from 9.5 on NT will release 10 then maybe release a point release 10.2 and then just go to 11.0.

The fact is, since Autodesk bought up 3D Max/Maya and is charging everyone for a subscription; NT has had to rethink their policy. The only reason for all of the point releases was because of bad habits and that they were always trying to take small steps to fix all the problems from the bad 6.0, 7.0, 8.0 releases.

Titus
04-05-2008, 07:41 AM
the thing with blender it won't be a choice of buy a or buy b but put time aside to learn blender...there is no cost other than time so if your app and blender can interop well you'd be quite dumb not to look at blender for some tools.

I'm working on a short film right now on my studio, one animator is trying to solve a scene with some fluid simulations involved and decided to use Blender's engine. This animator knew nothing about the program, with my help he was importing the simulation back to LW three hours after I started teaching him the basics of Blender. Mastering Blender is not an issue, really.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 07:47 AM
I'm working on a short film right now on my studio, one animator is trying to solve a scene with some fluid simulations involved and decided to use Blender's engine. This animator knew nothing about the program, with my help he was importing the simulation back to LW three hours after I started teaching him the basics of Blender. Mastering Blender is not an issue, really.

But dont you have that pressing feeling, with its interface beeing DOWN of all places. I kinda have this feeling like that interface there is like weights, pulling me down, not letting me learn. Once Id have my grip on Blender... Hah... Id clear the DARN thing off the interface for good :thumbsdow . Assuming of course that you can do that in Blender like you can in LW.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 07:52 AM
So you guy's think you should have free upgrades from 10.1-to-10.9? If each upgrade is once a year then you will receive 9 years of free programs. Add to that NewTek adding new functions during the 9 years.

Dont you think so too? I mean really?

frantbk
04-05-2008, 07:55 AM
Bug-fixes should always be free - I don't want to pay for someone's mistakes - but enhancements and new features perhaps should carry a price. Sure, some stuff for free, inspiring loyalty and all that, but what if point-release upgrades are relatively low in price - I don't know, say $100? And there are more of them? I really don't know what's best.
Julian.

What NewTek could do is just adopt the policy that all point releases are bug-fixes. Why should you have to pay extra for an improvement of a current tool, if that tools functions were not properly thought out? What do you mean by enhancement? An improvement can be the same as an enhancement, which gives you a new way of doing your work and that can be called a new feature.

Example take the volume select functions and enhance it to function as a work plane. You've improved its capabilities and you've enhanced its usability. Take that same volume select function and enhance it so that it can be used as a blocking tool. Now the person can split the mesh without have to cut the mesh in half and use layers. The user works on just the front of the mesh which will save him some time. Should you pay for that because the tool is enhanced/improved because someone came up with an evolutionary idea of the Volume tool?

I don't believe you should pay for every evolutionary idea, new tools yes, new completely different systems (like the new hair system) but old tools brought up to new standards; there's a 50/50 take there.

frantbk
04-05-2008, 08:03 AM
Dont you think so too? I mean really?

No, I don't, I really don't. I think if the program is released with bugs galore then NewTek has a responsibility to fix all of the bugs and improve the tool functions that will not impact the heath of the company. It is unrealistic to expect any company to provide cutting edge technology for nothing. It is unrealistic to expect a brand new hair system, IK system that has nothing in common with the old code base to be free.

*Pete*
04-05-2008, 08:05 AM
while the 9.x series have been free, and NT specifically stated that in advance, there is no reason to expect this to continue in the future with lw 10 and onwards.

with LW 10, and potentially paid upgrades, we get where all the other apps have always been at, we get a more normal situation as 3D customers.

there are many things that will happen with paid upgrades, one being that we will all be selective and picky before upgrading..if, say 10.1 upgrade comes with state of the art CA tools, i propably wont upgrade as i would do if it was for free, becouse i have no need for CA tools.
if 10.2 upgrade comes with what I need, ill upgrade and those of you who didnt get anything of intrest in 10.1 or 10.2 will simply sit out and see if anything of intrest comes along later on.
its the end of generousity, and it will be far from as good to be a waver then than today, but we all need to keep in mind that some of the features we got with the 9.x series were actually bought in from 3rd party plugin developers...paid upgrades will give NT the funds needed to buy additional features, which in turn will be sold to us with point upgrades, which will generate the money to buy/hire more plugins/developers.

i would naturally prefer to get things for free, but not at the expence of loosing out on much needed features or improvements...if the upgrades will be worth me paying for them, i will, if not ill sit out..its the risks we all and NT will end up taking, but the payable upgrades might improve LW faster than previously..so, imho, the risks are worth it.

Titus
04-05-2008, 08:05 AM
But dont you have that pressing feeling, with its interface beeing DOWN of all places. I kinda have this feeling like that interface there is like weights, pulling me down, not letting me learn.


I felt that way... 7 years ago when using version 1.8, no menus, no undo button.


Once Id have my grip on Blender... Hah... Id clear the DARN thing off the interface for good :thumbsdow . Assuming of course that you can do that in Blender like you can in LW.

In my case Blender is not a replacement for LW, I use it for simulations, some sculpting and realtime interactive content. My point is with the correct guide anyone can learn blender in a short time and there's no need to hate the interface, becuase once you get it, it's fast.

*Pete*
04-05-2008, 08:07 AM
and no...i do not support the idea of payable bugfixes, naturally.
so there have to be 2 separate upgrades the same time, with features + bugfixes and with bugfixes only.

frantbk
04-05-2008, 08:15 AM
and no...i do not support the idea of payable bugfixes, naturally.
so there have to be 2 separate upgrades the same time, with features + bugfixes and with bugfixes only.

Why would you have to have 2 separate upgrades at the same time? NewTek could split the teams. One team works on bugfixes and the other new features. When the bugfixes are ready NT makes an announcement that this is a free bugfix, list all of the bugs it kills. This way NewTek can keep to schedule of releasing new features same time every year. Every March NT starts the open beta testing and when it is done they release the new version. NewTek would have stability, the customers would have stability.

Dirk
04-05-2008, 08:33 AM
i think blender will throw many people into a 'spin' in the near future...that's once the peach project is out on dvd so people can take a look at the work needed to create such characters and animations then compare to the workflow in x,y,z app like lightwave, modo, cinema4d max and xsi...


I think Blender is going to be huge. Especially the DVD with all the objects and scenes will be something like a treasure trove.

cresshead
04-05-2008, 08:44 AM
Why would you have to have 2 separate upgrades at the same time? NewTek could split the teams. One team works on bugfixes and the other new features. When the bugfixes are ready NT makes an announcement that this is a free bugfix, list all of the bugs it kills. This way NewTek can keep to schedule of releasing new features same time every year. Every March NT starts the open beta testing and when it is done they release the new version. NewTek would have stability, the customers would have stability.

there's no need for 2 teams...just strip out the new plugins/tools and leave in the fixes.

DiedonD
04-05-2008, 08:50 AM
... It is unrealistic to expect any company to provide cutting edge technology for nothing....

Yeah, but you gotta admit. Its a pretty invitive thought :hey:

As for me. The moment it gets payable, Ill be picky as hell. Just like Pete says, but to the contrary Id get the CA tools over the other thing.

Cheers

Lightwolf
04-05-2008, 08:53 AM
Oh my... this whole discussion shows why a subscription based model would make so much sense... both for users as well as NT.

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
04-05-2008, 09:08 AM
newtek 'could' start to charge for demo's...just like modo...that would bring in some cash for future development.

also a rental model of lightwave maybe an option where you can rent lightwave per month
ie you buy a june2008 demo followed by a july2008 demo each works for 30day and can be used for commercial work....say $25 per demo.

AbnRanger
04-05-2008, 09:25 AM
Why would you have to have 2 separate upgrades at the same time?... When the bugfixes are ready NT makes an announcement that this is a free bugfix, list all of the bugs it kills.Just for clarity's sake, they ought to simply call the bug fixing updates "Service Packs" and either leave the new features til the next full release, or in a paid .5 update.
I think a better business model would be to do the former. No more point releases at all, just "service packs" and aim to release a new full version every 12-18 months. This gives them a more regular, predictable income stream...but most importantly, this eliminates them from having to hear the "why ain't it out yet"....no more baby sitting. :D

Just have regularly scheduled releases. Just like a job opening during the middle of updating your demo reel. If a current project isn't ready to go in your reel, you just don't add it. Same thing goes with new features. If it's not ready by the time of your next scheduled full release...then it has to wait til the next one. Offering a .5 as an open beta for the upcoming full release may be a good option....but I would no longer do the .2+.3+.5, etc.

That may be good for the customer, but has to be financially painful for Newtek. The end result of that is ultimately not so good for the customer in the long run. A financially healthy and vibrant Newtek is something we need in order to get the features and improvements we're looking for, in a timely fashion. An overworked, understaffed Newtek dev team is bad news for us, as customers.

AbnRanger
04-05-2008, 09:29 AM
also a rental model of lightwave maybe an option where you can rent lightwave per month
ie you buy a june2008 demo followed by a july2008 demo each works for 30day and can be used for commercial work....say $25 per demo.So that's what Lux does? Just keep updating the $25 demo fee...hey you got something there, Cress. :D

theo
04-05-2008, 09:33 AM
Oh my... this whole discussion shows why a subscription based model would make so much sense... both for users as well as NT.

Cheers,
Mike

I'm for it. The price should be based on LW's price point and overall functioning acceptability. Something in the range of 175-250 bucks per year. Over 350 clams and I should think this is excessive... at least at this stage of the development game.

AbnRanger
04-05-2008, 09:46 AM
I'm for it. The price should be based on LW's price point and overall functioning acceptability. Something in the range of 175-250 bucks per year. Over 350 clams and I should think this is excessive... at least at this stage of the development game.Agreed...but the thing that keeps Max users onboard is the high cost of skipping an upgrade and having AD charge you for both the year you skipped (go figure...you didn't get to benefit from their new features that year so why get charged for it anyway) and the new version.
I guess if Newtek offered a subscription at $300-350 with subscription holders being the only users to get .5 releases, plus some training material only available for subscription members, that should be enough incentive without them holding a big stick over the users head like AD does with its ridiculous upgrade policy.

Lightwolf
04-05-2008, 10:16 AM
Something in the range of 175-250 bucks per year.
Yup, that's pretty much the range I was thinking of... the quivalent of a full upgrade every 18-24 months.

That way NT wouldn't need to decide on wether to hold back a feature for a majot release or not...

Cheers,
Mike

starbase1
04-05-2008, 01:20 PM
Hey Starbase1, hows it going...

Rational or irrational, two parts of the same Iceberg says Froyd you know :hey:

But what do you think? Is it fair to pay for poin releases?

I think it depends on several factors.

How much money being the obvious one!
But seriously, I expect a paid for point release to be much cleaner free one, in all sorts of ways - I'd want properly updated manuals, not jut a supplement pamphlet. I'd also expect bugfixes to be provided for the main release for free...

But I'm not worried - I trust Newtek to carry on delivering very good value however thy approach it.

Nick

kfinla
04-05-2008, 02:02 PM
Also just for clarity sake.. Modo does not charge for point releases.. same system NT currently has. You pay for 101, 201, 301.. and get X02, X03 free.. 401 will be the next paid release and will have major new systems added.. u get 2 predictable "service packs" over the course of the year or so which also include new features that refine the existing systems in that series.

rakker16mm
04-05-2008, 03:19 PM
There really is no such thing as a free lunch.

The cost of doing business will not change dramatically whether NT moves to a paid point release system or not. There is also a very good chance that the over all cost of maintaining the latest version of LW would not change substantially either unless NT plans to hire a lot more engineers. If anything the effect would most likely be to even out profit from cycle to cycle, and this may in turn help NT to attract more and better software engineers. I think it would also do quite a bit to avoid an entitlement mindset among NT's customer base. You get what you pay for and you get it when you pay for it, end of story. I would think that must look like a fairly attractive option after all the debate about what was expected in the 9.5 open beta.

The only real downside I see for NT is the potential of some Lightwavers to hold back until other people buy the point release first, and then ask is it worth it. Of course this happens every time there is a new cycle anyway and it is not unique to LW.

jin choung
04-05-2008, 04:28 PM
Oh my... this whole discussion shows why a subscription based model would make so much sense... both for users as well as NT.

Cheers,
Mike

it does NOT make sense for users. never did. this is all about profit on the developer side.

the MOMENT this happens is the moment i jump ship. i DETEST the idea of software subscription (i won't even play mmorpgs for heaven's sake) and that is the surest way of relieving themselves of my money.

and i'm not the only one that feels this way. i've heard windows 7 might bring in a subscription program... but this is an ALIENATING MOVE that will drive a lot of people to a desktop linux that maybe wouldn't have considered it before.

if M$ does go with a subscription, i might be sticking with winxp for a loooooooong time and dual booting an ubuntu jingoistic jackrabbit or whatever it is at that point.

jin

jin

SP00
04-05-2008, 08:13 PM
yeah, subscription sucks. Really inconvenient, and your work and past projects is locked to the mercy of the company. Subscription is about control, and the users don't get any. Its like they are saying "keep paying us or lose all your work for the last 15 years."

Steamthrower
04-05-2008, 08:48 PM
I don't think I would totally jump ship if Lightwave changed to a subscription model, but to put it nicely, it would definitely cease to become my favorite 3D app.

Seriously though, all you guys, NT hasn't said anything concrete. It was just a single line comment dropped by Jay. Heck, they might even have changed their minds by now. Or they might have come up with something completely different.

jasonwestmas
04-05-2008, 08:56 PM
It's obvious to me that Newtek Changes their mind once in a while.

DiedonD
04-06-2008, 02:57 AM
I don't think I would totally jump ship if Lightwave changed to a subscription model, but to put it nicely, it would definitely cease to become my favorite 3D app.

Seriously though, all you guys, NT hasn't said anything concrete. It was just a single line comment dropped by Jay. Heck, they might even have changed their minds by now. Or they might have come up with something completely different.

Im afraid that thats wishful thinking Inigo. That wasnt a casual, random, spontaneous, common conversation between chaps. It was a planned conversation between two officials. When they came to my company they even gave me the questions so that I could think it over before Im put to the camera. Everything was preplaned, before the take.

Now it can be just a test, to see how well we like it here at the forum. Or its preperation no matter what we think about it, preperation about upcoming .x charged releases.

To skip the infamous car analogy, Id use the frog this time. If the water where it stands gets too hot instantly the frog will jump out. If it gets hoter and hoter slowly, the frog may boil to death and wont jump away.

I wonder if there will be a 9.7 release with the promised Instancing for the 9 cycle. Cause its the last unpaid .x release well have by me.

rakker16mm
04-06-2008, 03:23 AM
Paid point releases and subscription based software are not the same thing are they?

jin choung
04-06-2008, 03:56 AM
Paid point releases and subscription based software are not the same thing are they?

not necessarily.

first, with a subscription, you pay upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates.

and this being COMMERCE and not a charity, yeah, i trust as far as i can throw. actually, i don't trust charities either.

second, with a company like adobe, even if you have after effects version 5, you can upgrade to version 8. you don't have to pay for the upgrades for 6 and 7 and 8. just 8. no intermediates. so you can choose when you want to upgrade.

so yeah. subscriptions are a deal breaker with me. but this discussion about subscriptions is just because someone brought it up. jay didn't say anything about that.

jin

rakker16mm
04-06-2008, 04:27 AM
not necessarily.

first, with a subscription, you pay upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates.

and this being COMMERCE and not a charity, yeah, i trust as far as i can throw. actually, i don't trust charities either.

jin

Yeah subscriptions remind me of my university days when you had to buy the meal plan to stay in the dorms. Apparently there wasn't much motivation to make the food edible since it had already been paid for months in advance. Definitely a deal breaker.

JBT27
04-06-2008, 04:39 AM
Yep, subscriptions are a potential rip-off - trust no-one. Adobe have it right - upgrade when you can or when you want to, that's about as fair as it gets.

I let my Maya 4.5 Unlimited sub lapse - towards the end I received phone-calls from the dealer reminding me that if I didn't upgrade then, my license would lapse and I would have to buy Maya at full price at whatever version I jumped in at again.....that's a deal-breaker and a rip-off.

No developer can offer a cast-iron guarantee of what you are going to get anyway, or that it will actually work, so subscriptions, by the very nature of software, should not even be considered.

And anyway, as several have said, that's not on the cards as far as we know, for LW. The most likely thing is that we'll end up paying more for it from LW 10.x, and frankly I have no problem with that.

Julian.

Lightwolf
04-06-2008, 04:45 AM
Its like they are saying "keep paying us or lose all your work for the last 15 years."
Why? A subscription is for updates, not the existing version. You license doesn't run out if you don't cough up... you just don't get any updates.

Of course, NT could also offer the current system as an alternative... let you cough up 400US$ in advance for the next series of updates up to the next major release. I'd rather pay 250 per year...

I just prefer more incremental updates to big, major releases, because the former means getting the goods earlier...

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
04-06-2008, 04:55 AM
not necessarily.

first, with a subscription, you pay upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates.
Sorry, but the same goes for the 9.x series... in either case you either believe in a companies track record or not. That's no argument against a subscription, especially in NTs case (any how many people pre-ordered LW 9.x? Raise your hands please ;) ).


and this being COMMERCE and not a charity, yeah, i trust as far as i can throw. actually, i don't trust charities either.
Currently the point updates NT are releasing are just that, charity ;)

second, with a company like adobe...
We're not talking about Adobe, or Autodesk or softimage... Their general upgrade policies suck as well, is that an argument against upgrade based sales then?

so yeah. subscriptions are a deal breaker with me. but this discussion about subscriptions is just because someone brought it up.
Yup... I did... because all of a sudden is split between (free) bug fix releases and (paid) new feature releases... which would put the current developer team at even more strain.

Currently NT have to, one the one side, finish off the 9.x series while they're hopefully working on 10.x already... and they need 10.x if just for the version number to sell upgrades because they can't go on releasing point upgrades for free forever as they currently do.
I just don't think this "let's hold back for the next major releases" cycle makes a lot of sense anymore, and I'd like to see it go.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
04-06-2008, 05:00 AM
Adobe have it right - upgrade when you can or when you want to, that's about as fair as it gets.
If you look at the behemoth that is Adboe, and how they develop, that also means:

Plan features 3 years in advance
Design them 2 years in advance
Beta test for ages
Never ever give out free point upgrades with new features unless you really have to.

The question is if NT can afford that kind of inflexibility. We'd have nodes by 11.0 then... and we'd be a 9.0.1 since the past year with 10.0 at Siggraph (with features specced out in 2005) ;)

Cheers,
Mike

JBT27
04-06-2008, 05:20 AM
If you look at the behemoth that is Adboe, and how they develop, that also means:

Plan features 3 years in advance
Design them 2 years in advance
Beta test for ages
Never ever give out free point upgrades with new features unless you really have to.

The question is if NT can afford that kind of inflexibility. We'd have nodes by 11.0 then... and we'd be a 9.0.1 since the past year with 10.0 at Siggraph (with features specced out in 2005) ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Well that's true, but the upgrade policy is still OK.....personally I think it's too expensive, but that's largely because I can't afford to upgrade at the moment :), and indeed it's a crippling amount of money for the number of Adobe tools we have.....but when we can, we can jump in again :D

The one thing Adobe seems to lack, perhaps because of your points, is innovation - you are right: at least with NT we get the innovation early, use it and report back on it, and get some response - I sincerely hope the OBs are not dropped, whatever happens to the price structure.

Julian.

DiedonD
04-06-2008, 07:33 AM
The good thing about beeing stuck at a certain point release, is that you now have all the time in front of you to learn LW THOROUGHLY. Till now I just couldnt keep up with all the updates. And besides, appart from instancing that was promised I have it all for the time beeing for what I need it for.

BTW. Can anyone please attach the "Whats new in LW9.5 Guide" in here if you have it. I couldnt download it ever since the day before yesterday. Always tries out a few times and ends up telling me that I shoukd try downloading it after 10 minutes, which I did to no avail for 2 days now.

And I dont think its against NT policy in anyway. The more people know whats new the better, and If I could have it there I wouldnt be asking it here in the first place.

Thanks in advance.

cresshead
04-06-2008, 07:51 AM
re subscription model well the 3dsmax subscription model has worked pretty well for me even with the recent 27% cost increase for it.

we have in the past been given 'point updates' or early release plugins before major point update that non subscribers have had to wait for, we get a @home and @work licence so i can put 3dsmax on my workstation [@home] and my out n about laptop [@work] for clients/students which is really neat...no moving dongles and if a pc dies i'm still up n running 0% downtime..we also get e-learning vids as well...

getting onboard subscription was paintful but it's been worth the effort i think...and we've just had a new release of max within 6month's of the last one...which has some great tools in it. [max2009]

so subscription is not a bad idea...we get regular or even faster point updates and autodesk get a handle on what money they have for developing max.

Titus
04-06-2008, 08:36 AM
A question, didnt you pay from the 8.5-9.0 update "upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates"

They gave you a carrot: LWcad, fusion or speededit, a good deal for your money.

cresshead
04-06-2008, 08:40 AM
and vue infinate...

Lightwolf
04-06-2008, 08:46 AM
They gave you a carrot: LWcad, fusion or speededit, a good deal for your money.
Great... even less money for the development team... I'd rather have 50-100US$ off my subscription then, so make it 150US$ per year :D

Cheers,
Mike

Titus
04-06-2008, 09:08 AM
Great... even less money for the development team...

Or less profit margin, we all want a healthy NT. Right?

Lightwolf
04-06-2008, 09:15 AM
Or less profit margin, we all want a healthy NT. Right?
Yup, that's the whole point...

Cheers,
Mike

frantbk
04-06-2008, 10:36 AM
Also just for clarity sake.. Modo does not charge for point releases.. same system NT currently has. You pay for 101, 201, 301.. and get X02, X03 free.. 401 will be the next paid release and will have major new systems added.. u get 2 predictable "service packs" over the course of the year or so which also include new features that refine the existing systems in that series.

I believe the 100 series is the only one that had two point release (101, 102, 103). 201/301 only had 202/302.

frantbk
04-06-2008, 10:38 AM
Yeh, 250 buck (or thereabouts) per year would be a reasonable amount. I guess I would even pay somewhat more depending on what comes out of NewTek.

Everybody says that until it happens. This about it long and hard before you agree to something that hasn't been clearly defined by NewTek.

frantbk
04-06-2008, 10:50 AM
re subscription model well the 3dsmax subscription model has worked pretty well for me even with the recent 27% cost increase for it.

27% increase!. Are you guys crazy? Does that mean for every project missed because of problems with 3D Max you get 27% off on the next major release?

Lightwolf
04-06-2008, 11:05 AM
But now I'm more inclined to think about it the way Mike does, which is wise, because Mike is wise :D
Lol... I'm just an opinionated ________ (fill in your favourite expletive here) ... like the rest of you :D

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
04-06-2008, 11:10 AM
A question, didnt you pay from the 8.5-9.0 update "upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates"

No... two things that got my attention:

1. LW9.0 demonstrations at Siggraph
2. LW8.3 was the latest version at the moment. I got a deal which said "Get LW8.3 now and get a free update to LW9.0".

As far as I'm concerned, I never bought into Vue/DFX/LWCad deals; LWCad 1.x was given to all LW-users, something that I did not know I was going to get at all when buying LW8.3-9.0 (because it was a deal that came later). For me, it's all about LW and will always be. The rest of the stuff ARE bonuses or "free", depending on if you knew about it when spending your money or not.

Lightwolf
04-06-2008, 11:17 AM
Are you calling me an opinionated ________ (fill in your favourite expletive here)?

Yes ... and everybody else as well... :D

Cheers,
Mike *ducks_for_cover* ;)

manholoz
04-06-2008, 12:57 PM
I got into Lightwave because I needed Vue, and for a little more, I could get world famous Lightwave. In fact, I bought Lightwave+Vue in the Vue website.
So it is sort of an opposite way things worked out for me, as it was more "buy Vue and with a little more, get Lightwave free".

I'm not using Vue so much this days, and I'm using Lightwave more and more. Who would have known.

As to paid point upgrades vs. subscriptions, etc.

Newtek could just have named 9.5 as 10 if it so chose, and charge for the upgrade. For all we could complain, if we needed the features in the upgrade, we would end up paying.

So I think that if the current scheme is changed, they're just being honest and open about it. Which I think, means a lot in the long run.

As to ditching the bonus proggies... let's leave to the bean counters whether that makes sense or not.

From my perspective, it IS an incentive, as what is given is very high value. We're not talking screensavers and stuff, but really useful stuff.

jin choung
04-06-2008, 01:53 PM
... maybe you not, but many user was upgrating from 8.5 to 9.0 and there was nothing, only the promise we can get the beta as soon it is there... for me it is "like" an subscription, because many user was giving newtek the money... ;-) and I was quoting jin and his words "upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates"

yes you were. but i think i jumped on board in the same way - go to 8, get 9 when it comes out. and the features for 8 were out and known. 9 was just gravy.

several messages back, there was someone who said that just because we were get 9.0 - 9.x free, there was no reason to believe that we were gonna get future versions in the same way.... well, if you're new to lw and newtek, you might think that but the precedent did not start with version 9. it's always been that way and it's the reason why many of us came aboard the lw train.

but as i say, they gotta do what they gotta do.

and i can do no less.

jin

IMI
04-06-2008, 01:55 PM
Newtek could just have named 9.5 as 10 if it so chose, and charge for the upgrade. For all we could complain, if we needed the features in the upgrade, we would end up paying.


No, they couldn't have just called it 10.0. Because all Hell would have broken loose in the forums, since the features promised for the 9.x run haven't yet been delivered. ;)

frantbk
04-06-2008, 03:13 PM
There was a 203. Ooooh that is right 202 was the patch issued 2 weeks after the F..... of the 201 release. :thumbsup::agree::bump::bangwall:

frantbk
04-06-2008, 03:22 PM
I have thought about it and I used to be against the idea of subscription. But now I'm more inclined to think about it the way Mike does, which is wise, because Mike is wise :D

It's not like the money I spent on 9.x was for anything remotely clearly defined. To this date some of the things that were advertized still do not work as I would like them to, some are no-shows and then there's a ton of really, really nice stuff that I certainly did not expect to get for my money.

I do not see a subscription being any more or less clearly defined, feature release wise.

Like Mike, I now believe such a model could bring new features to the table faster.

If the price is right, I wouldn't mind at all.

I don't see anything really supporting the subscription method. If the current issue is no-show tools sets and advertised enhancements that have yet to show, that doesn't support a subscription. What it does support is that Lightwave users need to require more truthful answers from NewTek why these thing haven't been delivered.

My thinking is this, if they are not delivering the product now, why would they make an effort to deliver under a subscription - the subscription isn't a binding agreement for those specific tool set, and in fact with a subscription any improvements, enhancement of new features delivered would serve to fulfill NewTek's obligations.

colkai
04-07-2008, 03:58 AM
Yep, true enough. I have Blender installed.....I try to experiment with it when I can - all the talk everywhere and especially here makes me think I'd be stupid not to;
...
...
Right now I'm one of those who struggles to get past the interface of Blender, which I'm afraid instantly puts me off for now.....but - rtfm and practice I guess

That's exactly the situation I find myself in, couldn't of put it better. :)

colkai
04-07-2008, 04:01 AM
A question, didnt you pay from the 8.5-9.0 update "upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates"

Yup, indeed, many of us did and now many are thinking next time it's unlikely to happen. ;)

theo
04-07-2008, 07:47 AM
the subscription isn't a binding agreement for those specific tool set, and in fact with a subscription any improvements, enhancement of new features delivered would serve to fulfill NewTek's obligations.

Ah, contrast collision....

I am of the opinion that a subscription model places more control in the hands of the consumer. The ROI demand is compressed and can be far more vigorous in this mode rather than being pliable and oddly conformable over a two-three year period.

Not to say that this is 'exactly' the way it works but I think my drift can be snagged with a bit of creative thinking.

theo
04-07-2008, 08:40 AM
people! why we dont are as active here also active in the gallery to post new work ? everybody who wants to say something should post first something, it should be at least 50% : 50% ;-)

What a strange assertion...

TSpyrison
04-07-2008, 08:43 AM
Well..

My .02$

I perfer the free point release pricing...
(I feel like the odd man out when I say that though)

frantbk
04-07-2008, 09:12 AM
Ah, contrast collision....

I am of the opinion that a subscription model places more control in the hands of the consumer. The ROI demand is compressed and can be far more vigorous in this mode rather than being pliable and oddly conformable over a two-three year period.

Not to say that this is 'exactly' the way it works but I think my drift can be snagged with a bit of creative thinking.

I see what you are saying, but unless there is specific wording in the subscription for a specific tool set; then any tools new per each subscription reaches the binding of the agreement. This is the way I would look at it.

Lightwolf
04-07-2008, 09:25 AM
I see what you are saying, but unless there is specific wording in the subscription for a specific tool set; then any tools new per each subscription reaches the binding of the agreement. This is the way I would look at it.
Yup... but that doesn't stop the need for NT to innovate... and give them no reason to hold back innovation for the sake of revenue (new full release, thus money for upgrades coming in).

Cheers,
Mike

frantbk
04-08-2008, 09:00 PM
Yup... but that doesn't stop the need for NT to innovate... and give them no reason to hold back innovation for the sake of revenue (new full release, thus money for upgrades coming in).

Cheers,
Mike


True, there is always some innovation need for doing business. The next question would be does NT need to innovate cutting edge technology, or do they only need to innovate on current technology that other packages brought to the industry first?

Digital Hermit
04-08-2008, 11:55 PM
I am tellin' ya... the way NT can get the finances it needs, is to put a PayPal Donate button :newtek: at the bottom of its web pages. ;D

Heh heh

theo
04-09-2008, 06:38 AM
or do they only need to innovate on current technology that other packages brought to the industry first?

Innovation is expensive. If you want a software product that frequently innovates then prepare to pay through the nose in cash and aching temples.

I am comfortable with a slim margin of innovation coupled with frequent updates (to keep buggage in check) fused with a steady lope towards continual refinement.

beverins
04-09-2008, 08:39 AM
not necessarily.

first, with a subscription, you pay upfront SIGHT UNSEEN. you "trust" them to provide good and useful updates.

second, with a company like adobe, even if you have after effects version 5, you can upgrade to version 8. you don't have to pay for the upgrades for 6 and 7 and 8. just 8. no intermediates. so you can choose when you want to upgrade.

jin

Where I work, we have to buy the Adobe Maintenance Plan, an additional cost that has to be renewed every 2 years. If we don't, we get raped for a massive amount if we want to upgrade later. We HAVE to pay up for the maintenance every 2 years, without question.

Adobe also has a sh8t-tacular policy wherein they make semantic arguments based on the name of the product. You would think that my 85 licenses of Photoshop (now at CS3) which I have been keeping alive with maintenance for 10 years would count for something towards changing over to a bundle CS3 suite, right? NOPE, because CS3 is a completely different product even though it contains Photoshop CS3 as a module. They do offer a crossgrade plan for one of the Premium suites to a Master for a lower price, but that they refuse to give even a tiny discount for trading in a massive amount of licenses of their own software is disgusting.

Then we have Autodesk's Platinum Subscription Service. You want ANY upgrades to Maya save for a basic bugfix? Get that Platinum Subby going, otherwise you have to Pay For Each And Every Upgrade.

Myself, I think Newtek made a promise that the 9.x revision cycle would be free.. which I very much appreciate.. but honestly, for years they have always asked for payment of the .0 and .5 revisions. I don't think I've ever seen a .5 that I didn't have to pay for.

As for paying for Betas, you guys must have seen that Newtek is asking you to buy the beta of Rendition in order to test it, right? :-) It better be a durn good beta, 's all'm saying.

frantbk
04-09-2008, 10:06 AM
As for paying for Betas, you guys must have seen that Newtek is asking you to buy the beta of Rendition in order to test it, right? :-) It better be a durn good beta, 's all'm saying.

What is the point of Rendition? :confused: Does it work with all versions of Adobe Photoshop? Does it only work with CS3 extended? :confused: :help:

Do you get to subtract the cost of the beta from the finished price?

JeffrySG
04-09-2008, 10:32 AM
Well..
My .02$
I perfer the free point release pricing...
(I feel like the odd man out when I say that though)
No, I agree with you on that too. Although, I can see sometimes charging a small amount for a x.5 update if it has enough new features.

tischbein3
04-09-2008, 10:39 AM
I just prefer more incremental updates to big, major releases, because the former means getting the goods earlier...

Well nobody prevents them to release a major version (or just a x.0 beta cycle) while they are still working on a previous .x release...

Point is, no wonder how well done and how profitable it is for customers, "subscription" will allways sound like a rip off.

And it takes much more time and energy to convince someone to it,
Than just saying: "Product xyz: no subscription, you just get what you pay for"

The truth behind this (cost / advantages) won't matter.

Lightwolf
04-09-2008, 10:49 AM
Well nobody prevents them to release a major version (or just a x.0 beta cycle) while they are still working on a previous .x release...
Except for personel constraints that is. This has only happened once or twice in the history of LW.


Point is, no wonder how well done and how profitable it is for customers, "subscription" will allways sound like a rip off.
...
The truth behind this (cost / advantages) won't matter.
That may well be true. Which means subscriptions aren't a bad idea per se... but customers are ;)

Cheers,
Mike

frantbk
04-09-2008, 11:33 AM
That may well be true. Which means subscriptions aren't a bad idea per se... but customers are ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Yes, I see it now, if NewTek could get rid of the customers and only have the steady flow of income. Just think how easy it would be to build lightwave. :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

theo
04-09-2008, 11:41 AM
Yes, I see it now, if NewTek could get rid of the customers and only have the steady flow of income. Just think how easy it would be to build lightwave. :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

Nah, it's just nonlinear thinking straight out of the 80/20 principle. Probably make the forums a bit less callowish, as well. The bit torrent gang with the high-pitched voices and the sticky fingers would have to go play on some other monkey bars. :D

tischbein3
04-09-2008, 12:12 PM
Except for personel constraints that is. This has only happened once or twice in the history of LW.

Yes, but if they really start to "shorten release times and cut out new features in stability releases"* than this might/could be achived with lesser trouble than now ... who knows.

(*to recite Jays words in a more "marketing friendly" way )



... but customers are ;)

...as allways ;)

richcz3
04-09-2008, 12:13 PM
Quote from Jay in article, "For existing LightWave v9.x license holders, these tools ARE FREE! NewTek has provided free ?.x? releases for some years now, although this may not continue beyond the LightWave v9 series.":thumbsdow
Please NO! Don't change your long standing policy, Jay!

Snosrap
If free point releases are going the way of the Dodo to speed development considerably, then I'm for it. If paid point releases result in significant core and feature advances to catch up with other players in the market - do it.

On the other hand - I would be leery if in house coding to produce much needed features takes a back seat to an array of plugin purchases which could feel more bolted on than "built up" and integrated.

3D|Dave
04-09-2008, 01:18 PM
Given that the X.5 release has historically been the best release and thus the one to go into production with, how many people are going to buy into LW 10.0 when you know it will cost you more to go to the final production ready 10.5 release. Personally I think a lot of people are going to hold off and go from 9.5 to 10.5.

beverins
04-09-2008, 01:21 PM
What is the point of Rendition? :confused: Does it work with all versions of Adobe Photoshop? Does it only work with CS3 extended? :confused: :help:

Do you get to subtract the cost of the beta from the finished price?

Only works with Extended and they are giving you the Beta for a lower price and pro-rating the difference later. The price is fair, but if I am going to be paying to be a Beta tester, then it better be only minor bugfixes at that point. ^_^

I think Newtek could do well to charge a small fee for 9.5 actually. Perhaps the EDU price for Lightwave in general - $195 for normal customers and $95 for EDU users.

richcz3
04-09-2008, 02:42 PM
.......... how many people are going to buy into LW 10.0 when you know it will cost you more to go to the final production ready 10.5 release. Personally I think a lot of people are going to hold off and go from 9.5 to 10.5.
When you put it that way. It's real risky for NT to sacrifice one of LW's cornerstone pro contentions. Historically it's a biggie too. Paid point releases would only raise the expectations bar from here on out. It would not be enough to say The others do it. Cost of ownership would then be arguable and you don't want to be out flanked on that position.

frantbk
04-09-2008, 02:55 PM
Only works with Extended and they are giving you the Beta for a lower price and pro-rating the difference later. The price is fair, but if I am going to be paying to be a Beta tester, then it better be only minor bugfixes at that point. ^_^


:D :devil:

I'll probably get in trouble for this, but I'm thinking that this extended photoshop/rendition could be in the same class as inspire/aura for NewTek. Does anyone know where there is a press release that states what type of market this co-op deal is for?

archijam
04-09-2008, 04:19 PM
:D :devil:

I'll probably get in trouble for this, but I'm thinking that this extended photoshop/rendition could be in the same class as inspire/aura for NewTek. Does anyone know where there is a press release that states what type of market this co-op deal is for?

I think you misunderstand ... PS extended has 3D possibilities, standard PS not.

It's an adobe reason to charge more money.

NT can't do anything about adobe's functionality choices ...

j.

frantbk
04-09-2008, 06:18 PM
I think you misunderstand ... PS extended has 3D possibilities, standard PS not.

It's an adobe reason to charge more money.

NT can't do anything about adobe's functionality choices ...

j.

Okay, but what sector of the market is CS3 extended meant for? Is this a partnership between NewTek and Adobe to provide a cheaper solution to VT? Is this partnership because they are trying to cut into autodesk's combustion market? :question: :confused:

frantbk
04-13-2008, 05:32 PM
Okay, I've found some more information here about Rendition, and I now have a better idea what Rendition is about and who it is targeted for. So I'm not sure I'm the customer for it because I really don't need the extended version of Photoshop.

beverins
04-15-2008, 07:25 AM
Maybe if they showed Lightwave EVERYWHERE they could, like at NAB, they would have enough customers so they could afford free .x upgrades.

To my knowledge, they ONLY show Lightwave at Siggraph. NAB so far is an extremely poor showing for Lightwave, that completely fails to show the power of Lightwave in any way, shape or form.

Steamthrower
04-15-2008, 07:27 AM
To my knowledge, they ONLY show Lightwave at Siggraph. NAB so far is an extremely poor showing for Lightwave, that completely fails to show the power of Lightwave in any way, shape or form.

But is NAB even the target for Lightwave? Siggraph is the place for VFX and computer graphics, etc. etc. Lightwave's use is broadcast graphics is minimal.

beverins
04-15-2008, 08:00 AM
Autodesk is showing Maya, Motionbuilder, Combustion, Flame, Flint and Smoke. Maxon is showing Bodypaint 3D. The animation side of things is minimal but there is a lot of COMPOSITING going on.

At any rate, what they SHOULD be doing, but AREN'T, is showing Lightwave's power in the realm of 3DArsenal. What they have is a stupid pre-recorded 3DArsenal video, and then Don shows how to make a logo from an EPS file and extrude.

Here's what they SHOULD do, but won't.
1) Have a 10 min presentation every so often on how to make a 3D logo with 3Darsenal from beginning to end. Cooking show style, if need be.
2) Show Lightwave 9.3.1 (or even 9.5) running 3DArsenal. Load up the 3DA scenes, etc. Make sure to have OpenGL DOF and OpenGL motionblur turned on.
3) then for the gobsmack - show them Fprime. Yes, mention its an extra plugin, etc etc. But HOLY #$&@# LOOK! No rendering! Video Production people will LOVE THAT. INSTANT FEEDBACK FOR A quick 3D logo!

Alas.

But then at Siggraph (and I am NEVER going to allow Newtek to live this one down) they show SpeedEdit and 3DArsenal and utter the lines (which Don is still uttering today, 5 years later - no new material I guess) "Do you think 3D is hard?" This, in a room full of people who walk unfazed from a quick Facerobot tutorial or nod their heads at a Node-based AI brain system in Massive. Don's little quip is very appropriate at NAB. That he does it at Siggraph is completely embarassing.

beverins
04-15-2008, 09:44 AM
interesting..

http://nabshow.com/2008/conferences/sessiondetail.asp?id=1208068

richcz3
04-15-2008, 01:25 PM
....Alas.

But then at Siggraph (and I am NEVER going to allow Newtek to live this one down) they show SpeedEdit and 3DArsenal and utter the lines (which Don is still uttering today, 5 years later - no new material I guess) "Do you think 3D is hard?"......I don't know that very many people have really been bowled over by a LW presentation (as a whole) in the past few years. Then came the promise of 9 - The new starting point a new direction. Is LW10 going to be the powder keg that stands on its own two feet - toe to toe with other apps? I'm honestly hoping so. I imagine that when its capable of doing just that, I'm sure hoping NT will pull out the stops at more trade shows. In the meantime - its possibly money is better spent getting LW to the next level.

Wickster
04-15-2008, 02:15 PM
I'm all for choices as to upgrade to the point of what we need.

"Hmm what's on this $100 10.3 release (more nodes, more cameras, more lights, etc.)...I'll pass."
and then
"Hmm what's on this $200 10.5 release (fixed CCs, Instancing, more nodes, etc.)...I'll pass."
and then
""Hmm what's on this $200 10.7 release (better CA tools, rewritten Viper, Modeler integration, etc.)...Here's my credit card and $50 NewTek Bucks."

(features listed are not of NT's LW roadmap nor suggesting LW's roadmap. It is a mere wishful thinking on my part :D)