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View Full Version : Lightwave will Rock the House at Siggraph if....



AbnRanger
03-30-2008, 03:09 AM
Newtek were to build on the momentum they generated with 9.5 by adding two other components when they announce LW 10 (presuming they do so at Siggraph 08).
Those components are:
1) FPrime - Finally, every LW user will get to benefit from Worely's magic.
What's in it for Newtek? Being able to boast an, as yet, unmatched workflow enhancement, the addition of a second render to which they can improve in parallel to their native renderer...outclassing all of the competition in that regard. An integrated FPrime would be a key selling point for LW, to say the least.

Also, having the brains of Worley, as an insider, to help in the entire rendering development process would simply take LW to a whole 'nother level. With him having 100% access to the code, he'd no longer be constrained to the limitations of the SDK, and that probably means being able to scrap Viper altogehter, and the possibility that FPrime could finally work with volumetrics

What's in it for Worely? For one, getting a license fee for EVERY single copy of LW, on top of being hired to continue development either as a contractor or permanent member of the development staff. With all of the other programs either already having their own Interactive Preview Renderer, or slated to soon have an FPrime-esque IPR available to them, Worley no longer holds the Ace card he once had...and chances are that sooner or later Newtek will replace Viper with it's own IPR...leaving Worley pretty much without the big cash cow he had...and his well will have run dry.
Time to get onboard the train NOW, Steve...before it leaves the station...for good! Since he can also help in the development of the Hair and Fur Module, he would easily be one of the chief staff members at Newtek. It would be a huge win for everybody...Newtek, himself, and us as customers.

2) Lightwave skinned version of 3D-Coat- this guy, Andrew is a MACHINE, I tell you!!! I've NEVER seen anyone go so far for this community, and pump out the updates (to an already impressive program) at the rate this guy does. Unheard of! The beauty is that it already works so well with LW that it could simply be offered with LW as a 3rd program like Modeler or Layout, and be called Brush Tools/Mode/Module. Hopefully Newtek could have the UI modified exclusively for LW, with the ability to toggle/switch to the program just as Modeler and Layout currently does, and provide live updates in FPrime (with GI). Later versions, perhaps, would likely see full integration into Layout.

3D-Coat is already extremely affordable so it would be an inexpensive solution for Newtek to answer Modo's sculpting and painting capability, and with FiberFX improvements happening since it was acquired, means that these 2 additions would make LW a much stronger product with them built in than having to use them as plugins, as it were...especially with FPrime no longer having SDK restrictions.

Let Newtek charge whatever they need to, in order to make this happen, but if they add these 2 components to what they have already accomplished and have slated for LW10, they will most certainly steal Autodesk's thunder, since the last 2 version of Max have just been downright paltry in regards to new features. Comparitively, Newtek has been making some very impressive strides recently, and I'd really like to see them hit a Home Run at Siggraph this year. Adding these 2 elements will do just that. :thumbsup:

kfiram
03-30-2008, 03:26 AM
I have no idea if that idea is practical, or if the developers (Worley and Andrew) are even interested. But I'm positively sure that this would be beneficial to Newtek, the developers and the community.

DiedonD
03-30-2008, 03:28 AM
Oh it definitely sounds like a good idea. But I dont think its about money.

Plugin authors also fear that perhaps their plugin after beeing purchased, might end up not fulfilling their true potentials.

Adding Maestro on that list would also be a plus by me, but I think its not about money.

Fcourse F-Prime should at last then, work with Super Celshader, and all other stuff it doesnt work now.

And is that 3D-Brush that now is called 3D-Coat?

AbnRanger
03-30-2008, 03:32 AM
The sculpt and paint module would likely be named "BrushFX" in keeping with LW's internal plugin naming convention.
I can see why Worley would have been reluctant to integrate FPrime in the past, but with the current trends, I think his back is up against the wall, and he'd be better off joining the team than he would by remaining an outsider.

AbnRanger
03-30-2008, 03:43 AM
And is that 3D-Brush that now is called 3D-Coat?Hey Diedond...yes, I was surprised by the name change too. Wonder if the folks at ZBrush had anything to do with that...although I think he was well within his rights to leave it as 3D Brush. They don't have a trademark right on the word "Brush." And it's hard to name it otherwise, because the tool is essentially BRUSH-based...meaning he has as much right to use the word in his product name as they do. For example, Coca Cola can't sue Pepsi Cola for using the word "Cola" in its name. It's a standard word for the product. It IS a cola...and Andrews product was/is a BRUSH!
Nevertheless, it won't be long before his software starts hurting ZBrush sales, and I'm glad for him.

akademus
03-30-2008, 04:08 AM
I've seen a lot of posts about Steve joining Newtek, but knowing the way he works it is highly unlikely for such a thing to happen.

However, I was proposing to some folks earlier to get Andrew aboard and having this two guys in LW development team would launch LW sky high!!!

pauland
03-30-2008, 04:59 AM
I doubt that Steve W would be at all likely to join Newtek - he's probably making too much money and the relationship with Newtek (on the face of it) seems poor. If you had your own successful operation, would you want to have a new boss at another company?

I'd like to see some marketing people join Newtek, they need it more than anything else.

cresshead
03-30-2008, 05:30 AM
for lightwave to 'rock the house' it'll need

interactive previewer [a new viper]
sculpting/painting
deep user friendly character animation tools
great inter op capabilities
mo cap tools
a new non linear animation editor
modeling in layout
modifiers/history
ffd lattices


...sounds more like lightwave 10 than 9.*

AbnRanger
03-30-2008, 06:49 AM
...sounds more like lightwave 10 than 9.*That's what I was referring to...when they eventually announce LW 10, which will hopefully be at this years Siggraph convention...would look pretty bad for them to show LW 9 for 3 yrs straight.

We all realize that there's alot of other work to do in LW, but these 2 additions would be more readily available and would really provide the WOW factor that LW sorely needs (the FiberFX and new lights was a big step in that direction). As I stated earlier, many Max users, like myself, happened to be very frustrated with Autodesk lately, and LW seriously needs to capitalize on that by making these users think...hey man, why can't Max or Maya do that!

Doesn't necessarily mean studios and artists will switch outright, but they will be more open to buy seats and use LW for it's strengths...whereas, before they may have not have given LW a second thought.
There are plenty of Artists who really don't even know what an Interactive Render is, and have never seen or heard of FPrime. Imagine them going by the Newtek booth and seeing it for the first time...then seeing realtime Sculpting and Painting done in LW (with a realtime, full GI updates in FPrime)...that would get my attention. Guarantee you, crank up LW's coolness factor with these 2 additions, and the volume of people at LW's Siggraph booth will be at record high levels!

The best thing about it for Newtek is that it would buy them a great deal more time in keeping their userbase relatively happy and still boost interest in the program from outside the community while they continue to complete their overhaul of LW's core.

The fact that they not only acquired Fiber Factory, but made substantial improvements to it AFTERWARDS tells me that FPrime and 3D-Coat could also be much improved if integrated with full access to the programs internals.

Cageman
03-30-2008, 07:14 AM
Funny...

The thing LW needs is SCRIPTABILITY....

Ever since the release of LW8.5 (or even 8.3) SDK hooks were in place so that plugins can communicate with other plugins through L-scripting. So far, there are no plugins facilitating this possibility. Ohh...wait... PassPort does... (but it is written by a guy who's dayjob is TD at a Maya/Renderman pipeline where everything can talk to everything trough scripting). Ohh.. and that is why Maya is so successfull in highend pipelines...

IF this doesn't change (plugin devs making sure they add lscripting support and document it) LW will never "rock the sky"....

hrgiger
03-30-2008, 07:33 AM
I'd be surprised if Newtek even mentioned Lightwave 10 at Siggraph this year, let alone announced it. Honestly, 9.5 will probably just be making it to the public at large by then.
It's a little late to be making Lightwave 'rock the house' by Steve Worley joining the team or integrating Fprime into Lightwave, don't you think? Everyone else seems to be getting their own little inteactive renderers by now for that to make any real waves. It'd be ripples at best. Besides, I don't see Steve selling out anytime soon.

The 3D coat thing is much more conceivable, but it's still no zbrush. It is coming along at an impressive rate but with Lightwave's inability to handle millions of polygons that result from detailed displacements, 3D coat, zbrush, mudbox, we're still dealing with the same limitations.

Truly, you know what would really make Newtek and Lightwave really 'rock the house'? If they fixed it. If they stopped focusing on all the new things it can bring us for a while before fixing all the things it already has that don't work, that don't talk to each other, that don't work from modeler to Layout and vice versa. They've brought us CC's, but they still don't perform well. Modifiers and IK working well together. Modeler tools in Layout. The list goes on and they're seriously holding back Lightwave's potential.

JohnMarchant
03-30-2008, 07:45 AM
I agree with hrgiger, i would be very surprised with the way things are in the beta cycle that lw10 was announced at this yeras sig, maybe next years but not this years.

There is still alot to do, its definatly going in the right direction but still much work to go until 10 is ready.

Regards, John

cresshead
03-30-2008, 08:02 AM
the ONLY thing that would 'rock my house' with lightwave would be to make it a single app with modules or tabs to access modeling for animation in lightwave layout like that of xsi, maya, max etc.

everyting else is ''fluff'' and distraction..nice distractions i'd grant you but ies lights, fur etc is great n all but...

ffd lattices, re modeling a rigged character in a pose for muscle deforms and , painting weights in layout , great character rigg/bones/ik tools and having instances and a full undo plus history/stack is what i'd be looking for...

not much of a list eh?:D

i'd bet you'll see lightwave 9.* at siggraph 2008 and a sneek peek at lightwave 10 at siggraph 2009..newtek have a mountain to climb...lots to do.

lw10 seems to be some sort of holy grail...just WHAT people think it will contain...??
at best a total re-write relaunch of lightwave...something to knock your socks off...other's think it'll be a tidy up of code
and tools.

i'd expect lightwave 10 to see the light of day around the same time modo
gets bones, rigging, particles, soft/hard bodies and cloth fluids...

ie...not this year.

tygryss
03-30-2008, 08:50 AM
I think, cresshead has right... integrating, modeler, and layout, is a very important thing, with parametric modelling, but, if NT want bit the market, NT has to see far forward then maya, xsi, houdini...etc some ideas can get there, but NT cant do similar, or just a bit better program as maya, xsi, houdini...etc. NT is good on video editing... like VT, speededit, .... the right way, I think is create a better program, as ILM's Zeno, with modeling, end video editing... Zeno are 2d, 3d tracking, compisiting, rendering, painting, sculpting...
Linux support is also important...

I love Lightwave, and 9.5 is very impressive... I think NT is hard working on lw10. I hope soon NT give us some informations... it will be good idea, to set up a progress bar, for where they are in the development... :D

colkai
03-30-2008, 09:12 AM
lw10 seems to be some sort of holy grail...just WHAT people think it will contain...??
There's the rub.
Many people, myself included, expected massive things of LW9.X and whilst there is no denying LW has made strides in this cycle, the mountain (not hill) it would have to climb to make people reconsider it's place in the pipeline, is huge.

XSI seems to be dragging many away from LW and that trend if anything seems to be gaining pace rather than slowing.

I'd loved to be proved badly wrong but logistically speaking, I can't see how LW can possibly become a Modo / XSI / Maya beater when it first has to reach that level before it can think of surpassing it.

Given the enormity of the task to bring in half the things people are asking for, I just don't see it happening within a single cycle, maybe by LW12 it may reach what people are expecting. Of course, by then, every other package will have also moved onwards.

I'm sure Newtek are painfully aware of what challenges face them in the arena but you have to do the best you can with the time and resources you have. Sometimes, that may not be all you'd hoped.

At the least, 9.5 needs to be out of Beta for Siggraph for them to be really able to show it off as available. It also then needs some cunning marketing and demos whilst there, not, historically, a strong point.

AbnRanger
03-30-2008, 09:40 AM
I'd be surprised if Newtek even mentioned Lightwave 10 at Siggraph this year, let alone announced it. Honestly, 9.5 will probably just be making it to the public at large by then.
It's a little late to be making Lightwave 'rock the house' by Steve Worley joining the team or integrating Fprime into Lightwave, don't you think? Everyone else seems to be getting their own little inteactive renderers by now for that to make any real waves. It'd be ripples at best. Besides, I don't see Steve selling out anytime soon.

The 3D coat thing is much more conceivable, but it's still no zbrush. It is coming along at an impressive rate but with Lightwave's inability to handle millions of polygons that result from detailed displacements, 3D coat, zbrush, mudbox, we're still dealing with the same limitations.

Truly, you know what would really make Newtek and Lightwave really 'rock the house'? If they fixed it. If they stopped focusing on all the new things it can bring us for a while before fixing all the things it already has that don't work, that don't talk to each other, that don't work from modeler to Layout and vice versa. They've brought us CC's, but they still don't perform well. Modifiers and IK working well together. Modeler tools in Layout. The list goes on and they're seriously holding back Lightwave's potential.What you are talking about HR is what is already on their plate, things they already are working toward or planning for. They've surely considered to some degree the prospect of adding FPrime before now, but haven't for whatever reasons.
As it stands now, C4D is the only full-featured 3D application that has a true (progressively refinining) IPR. Maya has and IPR that essentially hits F9 for you automatically with each adjustment, but it's nothing like FPrime in any sense.
C4D's is, but it's nowhere as robust as FPrime, nor is it an alternate renderer like FPrime is. Holomatix Rendition has just recently been released for Maya, so they at least can buy a plugin that rivals FPrime. The others on the horizon, are still unknown as to when they will hit the market. Nevertheless, the threat they pose, plus the fact that Worley may not have a clue as to whether Newtek plans to build it's own (if Brad, Allen and crew were able to do it, Newtek's current developers aren't aloof to the concept and how to pull it off, either) spells trouble for FPrime's future as a plugin.

My point is that Newtek now has a lot more leverage to broker a better deal between the 2 parties than it did previously. And in the process be able to finally nix all of its incompatibilities, not just for the sake of saying, "Look, we now have FPrime in the nest..woo hoo!" But to take it and make it a much better product than what it has been.

Also, HR, the whole concept of 3D-Coat is that it only displaces major geometry changes and automatically builds a normal map for the finer details...so you why would you want to convert all that detail in extra geometry if you don't have to? Plus, I never said that it was a match for ZBrush...neither is Modo, but it's sculpting and painting tools make it very attractive nonetheless. For a good percentage of users, it's all they need and then some.
Plus...at the rate he's improving the program, I wouldn't underestimate what he can do with it. It's far beyond Zbrush in LW compatibility, for sure. Try contacting Zbrush developers and ask them for features that will make your life easier as a LW artist...see how long it takes to get a response let alone the actual features.

As for whether or not Newtek reveals a sneak peek at LW 10 at this years Siggraph...well there's a case to make either way. When they announced LW 9, 2.5 yrs ago, they had just then released 8.3. It's also quite possible, if not likely that 9.5 is the last point release of this series. Therefore that gives them sufficient time to go gold with 9.5, and give a peek at 10 at Siggraph...meaning that it will probably still be another year before that gets released.
Didn't Jay or Chuck state that (with 9.5) they have hit their targeted feature objectives for v9? I'm sure Newtek is even more eager than we are to move on from 9 and get to homebase at 10 with a fully paying release. That's their paycheck. Everything in between is an advance.
Maybe some of you are content with staying at point releases...that's natural, I guess. But I'm sure they are itching to move on already.

3 consecutive conventions stuck at the same version, while the competition has advanced 2-3 times, doesn't bode very well for any company, regardless if they are in a rebuilding mode or not. If I were a betting man, I'd be putting the chips down on the side of a Newtek flashing us peak at LW10.

cresshead
03-30-2008, 10:41 AM
if they do show a sneek peek...it better have a decent 'wow factor' in it...like new u.i and a leap forward in tech somewhere