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View Full Version : fprime?...final render is on the case too now



cresshead
03-29-2008, 07:38 PM
http://www.betalab.info/upload/fr/Unbenannt.html

i'm thinking that 2008 will be the year of fprime clones for other renderers!:D

so...fprime was first.
then modo
then holomatrix rendition for maya/max etc using mental ray
then there's max2009 ipr [not seen it yet]
then vray alpha last week
and now final render is at it too!

copy cats!

IMI
03-29-2008, 08:08 PM
http://www.betalab.info/upload/fr/Unbenannt.html

i'm thinking that 2008 will be the year of fprime clones for other renderers!:D

so...fprime was first.
then modo
then holomatrix rendition for maya/max etc using mental ray
then there's max2009 ipr [not seen it yet]
then vray alpha last week
and now final render is at it too!

copy cats!

GOOD!
They ought to all be forced to feel they need to offer this sort of thing, since we all know now it's possible.
VIPER needs to die an unceremonious death, replaced by something that does in fact offer a virtual interactive preview render, as opposed to a highly approximated sketch of a very specific element.
Great for hypervoxels, sorta neat for volume lights, really really really lacking for everything else.
Ah..but we can't even realtime preview lowly image maps added in the node editor right now, let alone... *sigh* ....

cresshead
03-29-2008, 08:17 PM
GOOD!
They ought to all be forced to feel they need to offer this sort of thing, since we all know now it's possible.
VIPER needs to die an unceremonious death, replaced by something that does in fact offer a virtual interactive preview render, as opposed to a highly approximated sketch of a very specific element.
Great for hypervoxels, sorta neat for volume lights, really really really lacking for everything else.
Ah..but we can't even realtime preview lowly image maps added in the node editor right now, let alone... *sigh* ....

i hear ya...maybe we will see interactive rendering in lightwave one day
...newtek have done wonders with the renderer so far...so i'd suspect it's on their 'to do list':thumbsup:

IMI
03-29-2008, 08:26 PM
i hear ya...maybe we will see interactive rendering in lightwave one day
...newtek have done wonders with the renderer so far...so i'd suspect it's on their 'to do list':thumbsup:

I really would like to hope so. :)
As more rendering packages add that functionality it just makes them more attractive. Having a good idea of what a final render will look like obviously increases productivity and efficiency, after all.
LW doesn't need a better FPrime, it needs a better VIPER, one which works with all the surfacing and lighting capabilities of the LW code. Meaning, it's time for LW to stop counting on 3rd party developers to keep it up to date with the competition.

AbnRanger
03-29-2008, 11:43 PM
I'm thinking that LW 10 needs, one way or the other, to include FPrime. It would be beneficial for both Newtek and Worley, as he no longer has the upper hand here. His walls (of innovation) have been breached, and it not being integrated into LW forces him into limitations as to what he can actually do with it further. As an insider the way Fiber Factory now is, he'd have 100% access. So, IMHO, Newtek really ought to try and get him on the team at least as a part time contractor, because as just another plugin, it's future is in jeapordy. As an integral part of LW it could really really shine, and why would they need to fool with Viper any longer?
Bump the price of a seat of LW up to accomodate the addition if they need to, but just get it done.
With the addition of real Hair and Fur in 9.5 they have taken a big step, and if they could get Andrew to build a LW module of 3D-Coat to be added to LW 10...take those 3 additions (Hair and Fur, FPrime integrated, and a Paint and Sculpt module), along with the other performance enhancements to Modeler and the CA system they have slated already, and you have a program that's, without a doubt, going to be generating A LOT of buzz in the market...especially if they do all of that and keep the price under $1200-1500 USD. Plus, more importantly, it buys them considerably more time to do the overhaul of the core.
Andrew is currently charging roughly $80 for his program, so it would be a rather inexpensive addition I would think, if Newtek could get him to craft a LW version with the standard LW GUI controls...to where one could simply switch (as is done between Modeler and Layout) to the "Brush Module."

He is a real gem and works as hard as any developer I've ever seen...would be a HUGE asset to the Newtek team, IMHO.

Titus
03-30-2008, 12:54 AM
AbnRanger: I agree with you.

cresshead
03-30-2008, 05:21 AM
well if fprime doesn't get more intergrated or newtek can't create their own version then it has already beeen stated that vray will be available for lightwave 'soon' so we could sidestep worley's fprime or the lack of a interactive previewer in the lightwave core at some point in the not too distant future seeing as vray also came out with a alpha version of realtime previewer last week

if alliances aren't forged between newtek/worley to bring fprime 'in' from the isolation of a 3rd party plugin i'm, sure there are/will be people/renderers that will step up to the challenge...which would really give lightwave's rendrer a bit of a knock seeing as viper is now well past it's ''use by date''.

eaither newtek need to make their own or buy in a solution...one thing that gets me a little nervous is the fur plugin in 9.5 may push worley away from future developments
with lightwave plugins similar to that of joe alter and his shave and a haircut which is now the defacto hair/fur solution for max, cinema4d, xsi and also as a plugin for maya.

AbnRanger
03-30-2008, 05:56 AM
well if fprime doesn't get more intergrated or newtek can't create their own version then it has already beeen stated that vray will be available for lightwave 'soon' so we could sidestep worley's fprime or the lack of a interactive previewer in the lightwave core at some point in the not too distant future seeing as vray also came out with a alpha version of realtime previewer last week

if alliances aren't forged between newtek/worley to bring fprime 'in' from the isolation of a 3rd party plugin i'm, sure there are/will be people/renderers that will step up to the challenge...which would really give lightwave's rendrer a bit of a knock seeing as viper is now well past it's ''use by date''.

eaither newtek need to make their own or buy in a solution...one thing that gets me a little nervous is the fur plugin in 9.5 may push worley away from future developments
with lightwave plugins similar to that of joe alter and his shave and a haircut which is now the defacto hair/fur solution for max, cinema4d, xsi and also as a plugin for maya.That's why I think Worley's days of basking in the sun are about over, and it seems the prudent thing would be for him join forces with Newtek as a member or be prepared to see an abrupt end to all his income from his plugins. Newtek pretty much put his back to the wall by choosing Fiber Factory, so that $500 plugin, Sas, is all but dead. As you say, once VRay is made available for LW, Fprime is in REAL trouble. T'would be far better for him to take advantage of being on the inside and making FPrime shine as much as possible. Maybe he is stubborn, but I don't see how that will help him in the long run. Plus, what's to stop KRay from developing it's own IPR?
Instead of him being bitter about LW going with Fiber Factory, he can actually help LW in that effort too as part of the development staff. He needs to realize that it was his pricing of Sasquatch that forced LW to go in a different direction...so unless he can pull some magic out of his hat and make Sas so superior to FiberFx, that it justifies the expense, it's furry mess of roadkill, I'm afraid.
If he refuses to budge with FPrime...guess what? He's going to completely take HIMSELF out of the game. Right now, he's in check. Keep farting around as an outsider with Fprime as his last bullet, and it will be Checkmate...game over. If he doesn't come on board with Newtek, I sure hope he has something else lined up elsewhere.

RebelHill
03-30-2008, 07:34 AM
Actually... i think ull all find that RTRE for max preceeded all of them, and was the first of these lil preview wonders.

hrgiger
03-30-2008, 07:39 AM
While we're at it, why don't we call Lightwave a copy cat for bringing us edges, CC's, particle systems, weight maps, and UV's. Someone always has to be the first and you can be sure that if it's usable enough, the rest will follow eventually.
Is anyone really surprised?

hrgiger
03-30-2008, 07:52 AM
Newtek pretty much put his back to the wall by choosing Fiber Factory, so that $500 plugin, Sas, is all but dead.

I think that's an extreme view. First, Fiber Factory is no magic bullet. Sas, in my opinion, is still superior to FF in several ways. It is a lightning fast renderer compared to FF, has it's own internal dynamics system, and still looks better in a lot of cases (IMO). I still own it, as do a lot of people, and I will certainly upgrade if Worley does put out a Sas 2 as long as he removes some of the current limitations (which honestly, are a result of Lightwaves SDK rather then Worleys inability to overcome them).
Worley has been quiet for some time and that probably means they're working on something. Whether it's a better Fprime, a Sas 2, or something new altogether, it's anyones guess. I guess we'll all just have to keep watching his Japanese page, because it seems to get updated first. I love all the hideously poor babelfish translations that people post on the boards.

Pavlov
03-30-2008, 08:37 AM
I agree, my pov is that Fprime, an incredibly excellent and innovative product for the time, but near-to-be-surpassed now (no instancing, no displacement, no network), should be included in next LW, unless Worley decide to get a roll on it. I think Fprime sold a lot of licenses but i also think its "big sale age" has gone. So, maybe both Worley and NT (i guess developing something in pair would cost a large amount of time) would benefit from the deal.
Best thing, anyway, is still opening SDK wide to these engines so we could simply buy the one we like.

Paolo

Sensei
03-30-2008, 02:08 PM
Worley does put out a Sas 2 as long as he removes some of the current limitations (which honestly, are a result of Lightwaves SDK rather then Worleys inability to overcome them).

Such as.. ?

Lightwolf
03-30-2008, 04:03 PM
... Pixar is one of the first after Worley

http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/19114/

Not quite... LightSpeed is a re-lighting system, requiring a full initial render with extra buffers for the light. This is quite different as you can't move interactively through the scene.

Looking at the VRay videos... it is impressive to see how quickly it converges on a decent quality GI solution... but it isn't as interactive as FPrime by a long shot. I've had (raytraced, not GI) scenes on LW with FPrime years ago where FPrime would start showing the image before LW had even updated the openGL viewports. That makes quite a difference in terms of interactivity.
Once that first second is gone though, VRay surely shines.

Cheers,
Mike

hrgiger
03-30-2008, 07:46 PM
Such as.. ?

Only using shadow mapped spotlights for shadows. Not seen in reflections... I'm sure these are a result of Sas being only a pixel filter but surely Worley can update Sas to being a volumetric or polygonal plug-in.

What's going on with True-hair Sensei? Is that still being developed or what?

Sensei
03-30-2008, 08:08 PM
I especially underscore your comment... What LWSDK limitations you said are disallowing SasQuatch to work fully?? That's your own words...


(which honestly, are a result of Lightwaves SDK rather then Worleys inability to overcome them).

Lightwolf
03-31-2008, 08:43 AM
... it was making the big "AHA!!" more than Fprime was making...
That tells you more about the market than about the technology though.

I still get "AHA!!!s" every time I show somebody who doesn't know LW FPrime (and that's the majority of people to start with ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
03-31-2008, 12:31 PM
max 2009 demo is out now so i'm d/l in to see what the new ipr for max/mental ray is like...it's surposed to replace active shade and be more like the q key drag previewer from xsi/mental ray...

i don't think it'll be anything like f prime but anything better than active shade is a move forward in setting up lighting and materials

lightwave really needs a new viper and not have to rely on $400 plugins that sorta work okay on 90% of what you'd like to see in a previewer.

1gig dowload..will take a few mins...