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View Full Version : Yes, the market is...'free'



theo
03-27-2008, 03:32 PM
When the financial news swings a hammer with a sickening thud into the temple of Wall Street watch how the wallet boys scramble for their government assistance:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080327/D8VM0BPO1.html

('Insert Link' is not working in Editor)

What comes 'round goes 'round...

Steamthrower
03-27-2008, 03:36 PM
Yes, the market is free, we can fix it by printing more fiat currency, we must bomb out everyone who has a large oil reserve, we must empty all of the money into a useless health care system, and after we arrest teenagers for copying CDs, we then need to take out another loan in order to buy a nice new car.

It's all how it goes, ain't it? I've just learned to ignore the mess and watch from my swivel chair in my little cubicle.

jin choung
03-27-2008, 04:13 PM
hence the balking of the masses when socialized assistance only helps the wealthy. tax payer dollars bailing out the wealthy - who insist on no regulation because... the markets should be... free... ?!

lol.

if it were really free, things would be allowed to fail. burn. get eviscerated and torn limb from limb so that it would serve as a grim ward and warning to others. freedom demands people jumping out of their windows dammit.

but noooooooooooooo.

they want the safety net but not the leash?

f that. can't have it both ways.

reality is, there are lots of financial and business institutions that CANNOT be allowed to fail. this IS true. the ripple effect would wreak havok not only on american but world economy.

but that being the case, shed this ILLUSION of "free market" and regulate the living f out of them. if they're not allowed to fail, they're not allowed to make stupid speculative, predatory moves either. and if tax payer dollars will buffer the fall, the lowly tax payer deserves some kickback on the other end.

jin

tmon
03-27-2008, 04:26 PM
Hey, I thought LW is supposed to save the day?!? :0)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120657397294066915.html?mod=yhoofront

theo
03-27-2008, 05:11 PM
It's all how it goes, ain't it? I've just learned to ignore the mess and watch from my swivel chair in my little cubicle.

...but-but, inigo07, how can you 'ignore the mess' and yet still 'watch'? :D

theo
03-27-2008, 05:34 PM
f that. can't have it both ways.

reality is, there are lots of financial and business institutions that CANNOT be allowed to fail. this IS true. the ripple effect would wreak havok not only on american but world economy.

The whole affair is a like a pie tin in the wind... United Airlines was hauled in from a 911 soaking and the people who ended up with scalded rear ends due to this 'necessary' salvation were the employees not the brass. Top-enders happily absorbed the Feddish 'assistance', revamped the company and with government approval, practically, walked away far richer while employees reeled under the harsh new reality of lower wages and cut pensions. God! that story just sux glass.

The Free Market is a conventionalist illusion promulgated by the 'superdelegates' of a centuries-long feeding frenzy. Give'em a war or a market crash and the saliva runs from their gaping mouths down to their wringtips (yes, misspelled intentionally).

It's a crazy planet, this abode.

jin choung
03-27-2008, 05:56 PM
Top-enders happily absorbed the Feddish 'assistance', revamped the company and with government approval, practically, walked away far richer while employees reeled under the harsh new reality of lower wages and cut pensions.

that's alright. even bernanke and his predecessor are aware that such a large gulf between the haves and have-nots is DANGEROUS for society. it really is true that the rich should be concerned for the plight of the poor(er) not at all out of altruism but to save their own well moisturized skins.

if things are not ammended somehow, there will come a time when guillotines, pitchforks and torches will come out of the closets and we'll have ourselves a good old fashion revolution.

the tiny but unbelievably wealthy group vs. the vast poor, the current population in american jails... this is gonna come to a head sooner or later.

in the meantime, the pressure cooker boils.

jin

Steamthrower
03-27-2008, 06:13 PM
...but-but, inigo07, how can you 'ignore the mess' and yet still 'watch'? :D

Well...I definitely see what you're saying...but one can definitely not let it bother them...ignore everything that the Fed and society in general announces...and watch it crumble in ruins around them. I try not to let it affect me. Maybe it's a useless paradigm, but hey, I can try. :D

IMI
03-27-2008, 06:57 PM
if things are not ammended somehow, there will come a time when guillotines, pitchforks and torches will come out of the closets and we'll have ourselves a good old fashion revolution.


That's about 5 years overdue now, if you ask me...
I'm ready. :D

jin choung
03-27-2008, 07:01 PM
me too! i just got my torch back from the shop. it's got a sweet antislip, heat resistant silicone grip and a righteous "down with the man" front mounted brand that heats up eventually from the flames for... well, for branding purposes....

it puts the sizzle in fshizzle....

jin

theo
03-27-2008, 07:05 PM
it puts the sizzle in fshizzle....

jin

There is no 'sizzle' in your fshizzle... There IS a shizzle, though...:thumbsup:

IMI
03-27-2008, 07:11 PM
Need plenty of rope, too. :devil:

Steamthrower
03-27-2008, 07:43 PM
I'll take the .223 and the 30-round clip. That's all I need. Bring it on.

IMI
03-27-2008, 07:46 PM
Now y'all got me all worked up.
I gotta go play some Crysis for awhile now. :D

jin choung
03-27-2008, 07:51 PM
There is no 'sizzle' in your fshizzle... There IS a shizzle, though...:thumbsup:

f S h I Z Z L E.... the sizzle in fshizzle....

jin

theo
03-27-2008, 08:11 PM
f S h I Z Z L E.... the sizzle in fshizzle....

jin

As you wish... I should have pretended the aitch was snatched. :thumbsup:

Steamthrower
03-27-2008, 08:18 PM
Now y'all got me all worked up.
I gotta go play some Crysis for awhile now. :D

Hey, look what I found. Seems like some guys in my area wanted to do the exact same thing about 20 years ago.

The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant,_The_Sword,_and_the_Arm_of_the_Lord)

Didn't turn out so well. Let's think about this.

IMI
03-27-2008, 08:33 PM
Hey, look what I found. Seems like some guys in my area wanted to do the exact same thing about 20 years ago.

The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant,_The_Sword,_and_the_Arm_of_the_Lord)

Didn't turn out so well. Let's think about this.

Um, well, look.... if we built this large wooden badger....

Steamthrower
03-27-2008, 08:51 PM
...and then catapult it onto the top of the White House?

jin choung
03-27-2008, 09:23 PM
why's it always gotta be polygamists?

nonono... this won't be some radical movement by a radical few... this will be an uprising of the people (tm) against a system that systematically disenfranchises them. think watts and rodney king and mash it all together with french revolution and the movie 'network' and you'll get the idea.

or.... revolution by crime. it always struck me that the poor victimize each other by perpetrating crimes against each other... if they ever smarten up, if they ever choose to visit their problems on the priveleged classes.... bumm bumm buuuuuuuummmmm (sinister music).

jin

prospector
03-27-2008, 09:45 PM
I'm fightin with the money side.
Better weapons there

mattclary
03-28-2008, 06:44 AM
reality is, there are lots of financial and business institutions that CANNOT be allowed to fail. this IS true. the ripple effect would wreak havok not only on american but world economy.

but that being the case, shed this ILLUSION of "free market" and regulate the living f out of them. if they're not allowed to fail, they're not allowed to make stupid speculative, predatory moves either. and if tax payer dollars will buffer the fall, the lowly tax payer deserves some kickback on the other end.


Can't say I have ever agreed with you more, Jin. :agree:

theo
03-28-2008, 07:22 AM
it always struck me that the poor victimize each other by perpetrating crimes against each other... if they ever smarten up, if they ever choose to visit their problems on the priveleged classes.... bumm bumm buuuuuuuummmmm (sinister music).


Yeam, well, thievery parallels real life here in righteousville. There are genius thieves, smart thieves and, finally, dumb thieves.

Smart thieves are, typically, going to remove valuables efficiently and with as little negative impact on their own personal cubicles as possible which makes the unprotected and vulnerable masses a far more predictable client base. Smart thieves, generally, take few risks. Smart thieves=local businessman

Dumb thieves rob anyone with little circumspection, due a variety of reasons (desperation, lack of IQ, drunken loutishness, convenience...), which makes them vulnerable to making stupid mistakes which lands their roguish asses in the cage. Hence the turnover in this segment of thievery tends to be high. Dumb thieves=burger flipper

Genius thieves are in a class of their own and rarely, if ever, get caught. These rogues will loot the Fed if a hole exists AND will get away with it in most cases. Genius thieves are not poor and due to their low numbers will not be a useful factor in discussions of populism and the reasons why the 'poor' socially self-mutilate. Genius thieves=people who run large corporations

I MUST confess, though, when younger and pondering the ways of the rogue I came to the conclusion that I could allow myself to be drawn to crime ONLY if the rewards were substantial which would remove the 'life' of crime aspect from the equation (three large-scale robberies could net me a lifetime in the Bahamas surrounded daily by the gorgeous and scantily-clad).

Unfortunately for my titillating desire to, then, exist as alter ego to 007, the risk assessment associated with illicitly acquiring substantial rewards went against my sprouting morality.

mattclary
03-28-2008, 07:28 AM
Theo, you forgot:

SuperGenius Thieves = Politicians

theo
03-28-2008, 08:05 AM
Theo, you forgot:

SuperGenius Thieves = Politicians

Ah yes, matt... the remote-viewers of the crime world. The SuperGenius thief plays his racket at the tiny top. Imbued with innumerable personalities, all resonating with a singular superiority and utilized at will with an indescribable deftness impart the SuperGenius thief with keys, glittering, to the kingdoms of earth as he dances from side to side secreting with him wisdoms of benefice drawn from an unknowing well.

He whispers and mutters to the stoic in rooms sheathed in scarlet tapestries and silken clouds of smoldering Figurados as he deals in the most valuable commodities of all: information and power.

IMI
03-28-2008, 03:02 PM
Ah yes, matt... the remote-viewers of the crime world. The SuperGenius thief plays his racket at the tiny top. Imbued with innumerable personalities, all resonating with a singular superiority and utilized at will with an indescribable deftness impart the SuperGenius thief with keys, glittering, to the kingdoms of earth as he dances from side to side secreting with him wisdoms of benefice drawn from an unknowing well.

He whispers and mutters to the stoic in rooms sheathed in scarlet tapestries and silken clouds of smoldering Figurados as he deals in the most valuable commodities of all: information and power.


I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Ted Kennedy quite so eloquently. :D

jin choung
03-28-2008, 03:06 PM
I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Ted Kennedy quite so eloquently. :D


all of them. every single one of them. neo cons, halliburton, cheney and idiot boy too....

jin

Steamthrower
03-28-2008, 03:07 PM
Idiot Boy? We know who that is even without a name. Pretty impressive the way one guy can get that kind of recognition.

IMI
03-28-2008, 03:29 PM
Idiot Boy? We know who that is even without a name. Pretty impressive the way one guy can get that kind of recognition.

Oddly enough, it's not just an American phenomenon either. ;)

theo
03-28-2008, 04:09 PM
I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Ted Kennedy quite so eloquently. :D

:thumbsup: So it's eloquence you see, eh, IMI? I would thank you but I plagiarized it from the mushy wall of a recess deep within my right lobe. A tripped-out entity within the mists of my subconscious runs to and fro scribbling nothings here and there. Naughty little banshee... one of these days I'm gonna shoot'em into a splat-mess with a solid stream of corpuscularized unconsciousness...

Seriously though... your feedback is quite kind.

jin choung
03-28-2008, 04:30 PM
Idiot Boy? We know who that is even without a name. Pretty impressive the way one guy can get that kind of recognition.

i know. harsh. but to be perfectly fair,

dubya seems like a genuinely nice guy. as opposed to, say, cheney.

even when dubya gets a lot of flack for his dancing and inability to open doors and then anticking in the aftermath, all of that speaks to his good humor. he seems like he would be genuinely funny.

inarticulate as all heck but funny.

but he should NEVER have been president. lots of really nice people who shouldn't be president or airline pilot or rocket scientist or heart surgeon....

alas, he gets plugged in where he shouldn't and everybody (including him and how he will go down in history books) pays.

jin

Steamthrower
03-28-2008, 09:47 PM
That's a good way to put it, Jin.

I'd say the same. As a person, W is probably a nice good 'ol boy, perfectly fine to be a senator in Texas or the mayor of some town. He'd probably be a decent guy.

But put decent guys in power...and heck, they want to blow half the world away. Sniping deer back home is one thing...bombing out countries is another...

But yeah, he has earned his place in the history books, hasn't he?

Have any of you read Mobs, Messiahs, and Markets by William Bonner? It's a great economics/politics book. I loved the section where he listed the great dictators of the last century...Hitler, Mussolini, Castro, Idi Aman, Stalin...and Bush.

jin choung
03-28-2008, 09:53 PM
i haven't read it but by the title alone i want to.

jin

edit p.s. : heh, never underestimate the amount of damage a single person can do....

IMI
03-28-2008, 10:58 PM
jin

edit p.s. : heh, never underestimate the amount of damage a single person can do....

Yeah, that whole "checks and balances" thing is working out pretty well these days. :rolleyes:

jin choung
03-29-2008, 03:51 AM
yup.

that's the whole problem with "king george"... he does an end run around all checks and balances by hiding behind terrorism. as his administration figures it, when he is operating as "commander in chief", he is not subject to any limitation placed on him by anybody.

the american system of checks and balances works because like capitalism itself, it relies upon the realities of human nature to work and not idealism - for checks and balances, the realism being human avarice vs. human distrust.

but he's rigging the game and making the whole thing decidedly unamerican. president as king.

i can wiretap whoever i want. i can torture anyone i want (simply by redefining torture), i can nullify anyone's rights at any time.... for the sake of national security of course.

tsk tsk tsk.

jin

*Pete*
03-29-2008, 04:19 AM
reality is, there are lots of financial and business institutions that CANNOT be allowed to fail. this IS true. the ripple effect would wreak havok not only on american but world economy.


true...you call it ripple effect, id call it the domino effect.
when the banks fail, everything fail..
the trick with "free economy" is to keep it on a leach so it doesnt get that far that it risks failing.

Steamthrower
03-29-2008, 09:01 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Mobs-Messiahs-Markets-Surviving-Spectacle/dp/0470112328

Definitely worth a few bucks.

Now please excuse me, I've got a waterboarding appointment scheduled, I need to get this over with. I'll be back.

*Pete*
03-29-2008, 09:11 AM
ah..waterboarding..do you mean the stuff that 7 japanese officers got deathsentence for after the war but is today an accepted interrogation method.

or did you just mean...surfing? :D

Steamthrower
03-29-2008, 11:06 AM
It's like psychotherapy...only it's not on a couch...and it's wet. At least from what I've heard. :D

mattclary
03-30-2008, 09:34 AM
yup.

that's the whole problem with "king george"... he does an end run around all checks and balances by hiding behind terrorism. as his administration figures it, when he is operating as "commander in chief", he is not subject to any limitation placed on him by anybody.

the american system of checks and balances works because like capitalism itself, it relies upon the realities of human nature to work and not idealism - for checks and balances, the realism being human avarice vs. human distrust.

but he's rigging the game and making the whole thing decidedly unamerican. president as king.

i can wiretap whoever i want. i can torture anyone i want (simply by redefining torture), i can nullify anyone's rights at any time.... for the sake of national security of course.

tsk tsk tsk.

jin

This has happened because he has been ALLOWED to make it happen. Both sides of the aisle hold equal responsibility for allowing him to run roughshod over the constitution. The best you can hope to even cast a vote for, let alone actually elect, is the lesser of several evils.

theo
03-30-2008, 11:20 AM
The best you can hope to even cast a vote for, let alone actually elect, is the lesser of several evils.

My rather cankered and sans party-affiliated view of current political devices is one that sees cloned King Georges budding all over the tiny top.

The straining effect of an immensely variegated seine of factors seems to produce strange fish and oddly similar kings who all (I think strange fish do this) proclaim with a vigilant vengeance their quintessentiality (forgive the slight massaging of the English language for effect).

The revolving popularly-stationed 'Horde of King Georges' generally succumb to similar temptations that render their initial pompous quests for the keys into the fleetingly persuasive and quite collective happy-ending (the one associated not with film) that preceded their insertions at the tiny top.

Create the cult, own the cult, become father of many chads (outdated reference simply serving as metaphor) and, finally, in a King George stance, firmly and creatively engage the ruddy posterior of the cult collective with an indifferent, yet patriotic, sigh.

I suppose sighs heaved during political penetration can be patriotic, in this sense? This is all getting rather abstract and quite edgy, I shall move on the transmogrification of polygons... Hopefully, this is opaque enough to be rated PG-13?

jin choung
03-30-2008, 05:12 PM
This has happened because he has been ALLOWED to make it happen. Both sides of the aisle hold equal responsibility for allowing him to run roughshod over the constitution. The best you can hope to even cast a vote for, let alone actually elect, is the lesser of several evils.

yeah and all of those politicians folded under PUBLIC PRESSURE. a lot of the blame belongs to the stupidity and reactionary nature of the american people. and that's something that you will never hear from the mouths of politicians and rarely from the media.

even anti-war democrats tossed in because of fear of appearing somehow anti-american or weak or whatever. it would have been POLITICAL SUICIDE to come out strongly against.

ahhhhh, it tickles me no end that the majority of people who had a strong, negative reaction to the dixie chicks, who protested and burned albums and such, are part of the crowd now that give king george his history making low approval rating. too funny.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

it also strikes me as paradoxical that a "Christian" president would operate from a politics of FEAR and VENGEANCE.... oh alas. i guess it is somehow beneath the concern of his variation of the religion to apply its principles to something other than reproductive issues? pfffft.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

finally, it's waterboarding when the ww2 era japanese do it. it's freedomboarding when we do it.

jin

Riff_Masteroff
03-30-2008, 06:23 PM
We in the NewTek forums wouldn't seek to impoverish the pet cats of the wealthy . . . .would we?

Seriously, Theo seems to be correct. Last Thursday on CSPAN radio I listened to a "super delegate" denigrate the "popular vote". He carefully explained why the Democratic Party should no longer support representative democracy. All this in the interest in "choosing an electable candidate". Sheesh.

Ok here we are: general warrants, mass oath breaking by federal employees (not to mention the elected ones), lawlessness, institutionalized torture, treaty breaking exercises of all kinds, and the redefinition of patriotism. And on top of that, the vise presidential: Soooooooooo.......(what).

My high school education in Bourne, Mass. explained our system of government to be quite different than what it is now. I never dreamed that the American experiment could be come what it indeed is today. I don't think we, living & breathing, people will ever get our constitution back.

Riff Masteroff

IMI
03-30-2008, 06:33 PM
Didn't Ben Franklin say something to the effect that if our Constitution ever became obsolete it needed to be tossed aside or rewritten?
I know in his speech before the signing of it he had some reservations and knew somebody eventually was going to find a way to manipulate it to his benefit.

Linky (http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/writings/franklin_on_const.htm)



...I believe, further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other.


Interesting, isn't it?