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Mitja
03-27-2008, 12:21 PM
I've seen this on the KRay forum (tanks to Juggernaut), and thought it should be shared here as well.
It's about VRay realtime rendering, like FPrime, but (for me) much faster.
Here are the videos:

Teapots (http://www.spot3d.com/vray_downloads/rt_movies/rt_test_A1.wmv)
Car (http://www.spot3d.com/vray_downloads/rt_movies/rt_testA2_logo.wmv)
Living Room (http://www.spot3d.com/vray_downloads/rt_movies/rt_testA4_logo.wmv)

...pretty nice, huh?

mav3rick
03-27-2008, 12:37 PM
nothing we cant do now nad for past few years

cresshead
03-27-2008, 12:46 PM
except that the monopoly/unique selling point of lightwave in conjunction with 'fprime' fpr realtme previews is now over...things may get a bit more difficult for fprime esp as fprime keeps breaking with new lightwave builds and has never been able to render fur/volumetrics in realtime preview...too many ''can't do that's'' compared to where/how the implementations of competing products strive to have EVERYTHING rendering in the preview viewport...

max will also soon have holomatrix rendition as well for mental ray as well as maya and xsi will too.

and max2009 in having a new mental ray based ipr renderer too...not to mention xsi and modo's ipr's.

mr worley need to invent soemthing new to leap ahead again.

Matt
03-27-2008, 01:23 PM
Can't tell what the machine specs in the videos are, but assuming it's a Quad Core or something, it looks to be a bit faster than FPrime.

While I agree with the problem that FPrime and 9.5 aren't identical anymore, I'd rather NT forged ahead with new stuff than keep LW FPrime compliant!

Bottom line is, it's up to Worley to keep FPrime up to date with LW. Which I'm sure he will once 9.5 is released, no point in updating FPrime until everything is locked down.

Larry_g1s
03-27-2008, 01:32 PM
I've seen this on the KRay forum (tanks to Juggernaut), and thought it should be shared here as well.
It's about VRay realtime rendering, like FPrime, but (for me) much faster.
Here are the videos:

Teapots (http://www.spot3d.com/vray_downloads/rt_movies/rt_test_A1.wmv)
Car (http://www.spot3d.com/vray_downloads/rt_movies/rt_testA2_logo.wmv)
Living Room (http://www.spot3d.com/vray_downloads/rt_movies/rt_testA4_logo.wmv)

...pretty nice, huh?Thanks Mitja. Yeah I posted it on the Kray forums, because it's something I'd like to see Kray integrate. I've had fPrime for years now, and just recently purchased Kray. I'm really enjoying learning Kray, & seeing what it can do from some of the other users. But one thing I miss when using it, is the ability to see real-time lighting & texture changes like when I use fPrime. I'd really like to see an integration of the two, not literally, just feature wise.

SplineGod
03-27-2008, 01:43 PM
I would like to see Newtek revamp viper to be more useful.

sadkkf
03-27-2008, 01:46 PM
I would like to see Newtek revamp viper to be more useful.

Ditto. And bring back the render history!

Matt
03-27-2008, 02:24 PM
I would like to see Newtek revamp viper to be more useful.

Big ask that IMO!

:D

Intuition
03-27-2008, 02:25 PM
Been following that for a bit. Also awaiting the Vray for XSI, Vlado mentioned it on the public forum, because Vray is a really nice render engine and would bring more animation and characters to the Vray world. Max users are aware of it but a lot of people see the chaos group webpage gallery and wonder what all the fuss is about.

Industry houses are slowly starting to realize just how powerful Vray is.

Think of getting 95% of the quality of a maxwell render in a fraction of the time, as well as micropoly displacements, and a material standard that makes getting photoreal surfaces the "modus operandi".

The Vray realtime previewer looks similar to the light cache mode that is currently in Vray but looks to show the final GI solution as well. I will buy it the day it comes out, preferably for XSI but if its for max then so be it. Aw, siggraph 08 should be the best one in years.

Vlado mentioned that Lightwave will eventually get a version of Vray as well so, although it may not be until 2009 but it will arrive. Then all the GI and displacement probs in LW will be a thing of the past permanently.

Must mention though that Kray, if it had micropoly displacements, could be like Vray for Lightwave already.

Captain Obvious
03-27-2008, 02:45 PM
I would just like to point out that Lightwave lost the monopoly on interactive rendering quite some time ago. modo has a similar sort of previewer (though, admittedly, I find FPrime is generally faster and better).

Larry_g1s
03-27-2008, 03:39 PM
Must mention though that Kray, if it had micropoly displacements, could be like Vray for Lightwave already.Which is why, once Kray gets out of the beta stage, I'd like to see a push for a real-time previewer. :D

RedBull
03-27-2008, 04:07 PM
max will also soon have holomatrix rendition as well for mental ray as well as maya and xsi will too.

and max2009 in having a new mental ray based ipr renderer too...not to mention xsi and modo's ipr's.

mr worley need to invent soemthing new to leap ahead again.

Yep i have been requesting Viper improvements for years, but now that we have choices for interactive rendering LW's render is not useful to me anymore. Fprime is limited and breaks with every release...

NT really stuffed this one up, Worley had a 5 years advantage on this type of technology, and the fact that NT did not capitalize on the fact, and now that everyone else has caught up, I will definately be looking at Vray and MR and others in the future....

With all the others open to a Render API, and allowing all renderers to plugin, meantime NT went the selfish route and did nothing, and now all the other software provides much better interactive rendering, and will do in the future.

It was even obvious when 9.2 was released promising FPrime compatibility, but it didn't and NT and Worley had to release press statements to smooth things over... Now everyone else has caught up and NT really have lost something they had a unique niche with. Really bad form, and yet really unsurprising on this particular technology...

FPrime was the single most important workflow and technological advancement i had seen since using LW, to ignore it they way NT did was a stupid, stupid move. Now they will start to see why that is.... :(

PS. Captain Modo and Holomatix is still inferior to FPrime, so it still holds the crown.

cresshead
03-27-2008, 04:23 PM
well there's a bit of time left to pick the ball up and get back ontop...that being said currently there seems not much happening in this particular area for lightwave as yet....

we can hope that siggraph in the summer will deliver the goods as holomatrix, vray and the new mental ray ipr roll out as full versions..so around 5 to 6 months till 'd-day'

a NEW viper should really be on the cards re lightwave...basically make a newtek style fprime but make it core lightwave not a add on with missing capabilities due to SDK limitations for 3rd party plugin developers....needs to be able to see and render fur and hypervoxels etc.

Matt
03-27-2008, 06:44 PM
FPrime was the single most important workflow and technological advancement i had seen since using LW, to ignore it they way NT did was a stupid, stupid move. Now they will start to see why that is.... :(

How did NT ignore it exactly? They opened up the SDK as much as they could back then to allow FPrime to do more.

Unless I'm missing something?

Larry_g1s
03-27-2008, 10:26 PM
How did NT ignore it exactly? They opened up the SDK as much as they could back then to allow FPrime to do more.

Unless I'm missing something?Agreed. I've had FPrime sense day 1, and though it's been glichy at times, it has been money well spent.

Panikos
03-27-2008, 10:41 PM
Well, I predicted what happened early, I expressed my thoughts together with other people. FPrime was a strong "selling point" of LW, Newtek treated FPrime as a foreign tool even after strong user pressure.

As far as Worley, I trust him that he will catch up with LW95, taking advantate of all the room Newtek provides. If this is not 100%, blame Newtek not Worley.

RedBull
03-27-2008, 11:47 PM
How did NT ignore it exactly? They opened up the SDK as much as they could back then to allow FPrime to do more.

Unless I'm missing something?

Did they? Gee Those Hypervoxels are working well, and those other Volumetric plugins they certainly work well too, hell i cannot even use FPrime for Skytracer after a few clicks FPrime becomes not useful and you need an F9 Render to fix it...

How is FPrime working with our new Hair Solution? (What's that no SDK access for the hair) The first major release of 9.2 wasn't even compatible with FPrime, (nodes) after all the lies that NT told us it would be.....

What about our Viper or own previewing technology? Did this get enhanced at all in the last 5 years, when it was obvious that this was a real work flow enhancer...... Even now has Viper been Multithreaded? (Does it auto update?)

Modo saw what FPrime meant, and accordingly made a decent previewer, as did Holomatix, Vray and the C4D IPR.... But NT still expect Viper to be a useful thing.

Did NT do a lot of work in helping 3rd party renderers have a nice API?
Or was it in fact apart of the LW9 statement, they wanted to take their own renderer enhancements and the hell with anyone else! ?

How did NT ignore it? How much more advanced are we with Interactive realtime raytracing compared to where we were years back? And how much more advanced are all the others now in comparison?

I Agree with Panikos, FPrime is what kept people in LW over the 8.x cycle and likely a lot of the 9.x cycle too.... The fact that this thread exists today, applauding the competition for doing what NT didn't think was important, is a "I told you so" moment.!

AbnRanger
03-28-2008, 01:16 AM
...max will also soon have holomatrix rendition as well for mental ray as well as maya and xsi will too.

and max2009 in having a new mental ray based ipr renderer too...not to mention xsi and modo's ipr's.

mr worley need to invent soemthing new to leap ahead again.Max 2009 won't have an Interactive Preview Render, just enhancements to MR that lets you choose what elements you want renderered and what you don't. Sounds like a miniscule improvement overall, and outside of that, what exactly is new about Max 2009? Lightwave gets more features between 9.2 and 9.5 than Max got between v9 and 2009!

Back to this supposed IPR in Max 2009...sounds to me like you still have to hit F9 each time, but what AD is calling "Reveal" is not a progressively refining IPR in any sense. With Maya's IPR, it just re-renders (automatically hitting F9 for you with each adjustment). I doubt this "Reveal" even does that much. There's nothing in the feature description that lends you to believe it does.

You know Mental Ray has been in business plenty long enough to come up with one of their own. Want to talk about "not working with Volumetrics"...that's MR in a nutshell. So, before people start knocking FPrime's limitations, give Mental Ray a raking across the coals while you're at it.

I have been using finalRender for some time, but it looks like I'll be switching to VRay as soon as this comes out.

Mitja
03-28-2008, 06:07 AM
Imo, FPrime has not been caught up, but widely overtaken.
FPrime works well with 1, max 2 gi bounces, there are problems with the inverse2 falloff and other problems due to the famous SDK limitations... and more.
What I can see in these videos, is a full gi solution, or something very close (if not prove me wrong). And the daylight sistem is so powerful and easy to set up, thoug it's not a new feature.
I hope that someone will wake up, or jump on his chair seeing these vids...

mav3rick
03-28-2008, 06:28 AM
worley for sure will be releasing update but he cant release 9.5 update since 9.5 is not officially out. so what u have now is update for 9.3 and it works... bad is he release it at the end of 9.3 life so i hope he will be smarter with 9.5 and release 9.5 update of fprime at day 1 of 9.5 release.... and it is about time he do something new fresh to keep up with rest of industry... he get enough money from us all to continue be innovative ...

Mitja
03-28-2008, 06:45 AM
worley for sure will be releasing update but he cant release 9.5 update since 9.5 is not officially out. so what u have now is update for 9.3 and it works... bad is he release it at the end of 9.3 life so i hope he will be smarter with 9.5 and release 9.5 update of fprime at day 1 of 9.5 release....

Nobody is speaking about releasing an "update", and nobody is speaking about releasing it before time. A simple update would be too less anyway.
There isn't only mr Worley, NT could improve the Viper (and hopefully change its name,it's horrible :hey: ) to match the current standards: Viper is useless, imo.
So I couldn't agree more with your second part of post:

.... and it is about time he do something new fresh to keep up with rest of industry... he get enough money from us all to continue be innovative ...
That's what I'm talking about!!! And, again, there's not only mr Worley. If the SDK has so many limitations, and NT wants to keep 'em, they should do something with the Viper, asap.

pumeco
03-28-2008, 06:56 AM
I'd love to see VIPER given the 'full' treatment.

I'd much rather have a native preview that can handle the entire scene and that is compatible with all of LightWaves rendering and surfacing technology. I love FPrime, but it's starting to annoy me more and more. I hope LightWave 10 will see VIPER become a more complete tool, even if it's not quite as fast as FPrime, as long as it handles 'everything' I think that would be great - and a major step forward.

qwz
03-28-2008, 09:23 AM
i remember that fprime videos on Worley's site are much speedy than in reality was

Intuition
03-28-2008, 09:57 AM
I'd be perfectly happy if NewTek made a previewer like the one in modo. It's really all I need. A previewer, nothing more. I can live without AA in the preview. Just a brute force, simple preview of the entire scene or selected objects/surfaces. It would of course also need to preview buffers and all the stuff the one in modo does. If it does more, then apply a happiness factor according to the goodness :)

I'm not asking for FPrime-like final render quality. Just previewing that isn't so dusty it's becoming useless.

LightWave's GI is becoming so good that Fprime can't keep up with speed anyway.

But previewing is very, very important for workflow.



Total Agreement. Its the same for my workflow in mental ray XSI. I keep the render region settings low so it can refresh fast. Then my setup time is no different then f-prime. I even bring the FG rays down to like 20 just so I can see the general GI effect fast.

I have loved F-Prime and really appreciate the fact that NT and worley made it work better with the new nodes. I can't give them crap since they did a good job trying to make it all happen. The new Gi in LW is really quick now and I can almost imagine a render region window in LW that uses the same idea as XSI which is a seperated settings so that you can preview a scene fast just like XSI.

I mean the Gi calc phase in many shots is almost like f-prime the way it progressively scans the scene. I could see this being implemented easily without much trouble to the code that is already there. Just getting it to show in the region draw window and making a panel to set the region draw window settings seperate from the final render settings.

Ah, in my perfect world anyways. ;)

CAClark
03-28-2008, 10:20 AM
Can't tell what the machine specs in the videos are, but assuming it's a Quad Core or something, it looks to be a bit faster than FPrime.

While I agree with the problem that FPrime and 9.5 aren't identical anymore, I'd rather NT forged ahead with new stuff than keep LW FPrime compliant!

Bottom line is, it's up to Worley to keep FPrime up to date with LW. Which I'm sure he will once 9.5 is released, no point in updating FPrime until everything is locked down.

If you check out Hypershot which is a realtime IBL Renderer, it's massively faster than FPrime as well.

NT and Worely need to work together better IMO or FPrime is gonna represent little or no attraction. 9.5 is a prime example of an avoidable breakage I would think.

Cheers!

CAClark
03-28-2008, 10:22 AM
Imo, FPrime has not been caught up, but widely overtaken.
FPrime works well with 1, max 2 gi bounces, there are problems with the inverse2 falloff and other problems due to the famous SDK limitations... and more.
What I can see in these videos, is a full gi solution, or something very close (if not prove me wrong). And the daylight sistem is so powerful and easy to set up, thoug it's not a new feature.
I hope that someone will wake up, or jump on his chair seeing these vids...


It's not only the interactive that makes it.... it's what VRAY itself is being driven in realtime is what makes it such an attractive proposition. IMO in terms of rendering, for sometime now VRay is the standard being set for high quality rendering.

Cheers!

SP00
03-28-2008, 10:47 AM
The question I like to ask is if the makes of Fprime can compete with the makers of Vray? Two very different size studios with different resources. If Vray for LW does come out in 2009, Fprime 4.0 needs to step it up.

CAClark
03-28-2008, 10:50 AM
VRAY is a much more expansive product then fprime.

prometheus
03-28-2008, 11:39 AM
yepp an viper overhaul would be extremely important and would help keep Lightwave ahead in preview and fast workflow areas.
surfaces, hypervoxels, volumetrics, textured environment is there but it really
needs global illumination and ofcourse be able to render full previews of the whole animated scene.

I sure hope they can look into this very very soon and make my jaw drop to the ground:)

Even more so If they can include postprocessing, glows &pixel filters as an extra option would be awesome.
Lets make Lightwave even faster for tight productions and live up to it?s name..fast like a lightwave.

Mitja
03-28-2008, 11:56 AM
..fast like a lightwave.

Theoretically a lightwave could be slowed down and stopped...