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beverins
03-27-2008, 08:04 AM
http://tour.maxon3d.com/?gclid=CNObrre6rZICFRciFQodHkNuQQ

pauland
03-27-2008, 08:16 AM
Yes, makes you think who's really the underdog.

I wish Newtek would get an innovative marketeer. I sometimes think the ship is afloat but the rudder lost.

JBT27
03-29-2008, 04:46 AM
Like it or not, it's a viciously hype-ridden society and industry, and I agree that NT really need to be looking at this part of their operation.....especially on the run-up to X when it happens.

Julian.

Chris S. (Fez)
03-29-2008, 06:51 AM
Hype aside, a colleague recently showed me the C4D/Photoshop integration. Let's just say Newtek has a long way to go...

AbnRanger
03-29-2008, 11:46 PM
Hype aside, a colleague recently showed me the C4D/Photoshop integration. Let's just say Newtek has a long way to go...
Yeah C4D and Adobe are getting so cozy together that I wonder what they have planned...announcing their engagement, I suppose? Seems kind of natural since C4D is used so heavily in Motion Graphics, right alongside AE.

pauland
03-30-2008, 04:05 AM
Recently 3D World included a set of eight 3D software reference cards and guess which software was missing from that set? I also noticed that Computer Arts did a quick round-up of 3D software and a certain program was missing. In both cases Cinema 4D was included..

JBT27
03-30-2008, 04:54 AM
Recently 3D World included a set of eight 3D software reference cards and guess which software was missing from that set? I also noticed that Computer Arts did a quick round-up of 3D software and a certain program was missing. In both cases Cinema 4D was included..

Irrespective of how good it is or where it's going, it's a sad but hard fact that LW is largely famous for being the underdog. Being left out of roundup lists says far more about the magazine or reviewer than it does about LW.....not that it's doing NT any favours of course.

We all know that, but how to get round it.....?

Julian.

pauland
03-30-2008, 05:31 AM
We all know that, but how to get round it.....?

I have the feeling that NT tends to be a bit frugal when spending money, so I guess that hiring some hot shot marketing team might be out of the question.

I'd trying and get hold of a promising marketing creative whose not yet established but has a bit of a vibe - just left college, or early in their career and let them loose.

I could see Newtek taking the underdog stance there and winning sales.

What are the key things about Newtek?

Highly capable 3D software.
Low price point.
Free render nodes licence.
Track record.
Incredible community.
2D Super fast editing.

Where are the slick virals?
Why aren't there loads of slick Newtek adverts on youtube? (what I've come across has been pretty cheesy and reminiscent of 1950's soap powder or used car adverts).

I think that largely newtek has been stuck in a deep rut marketing wise. I don't think NT needs a huge advertising budget, just some slick advertising to show that people are throwing away money if they don't use NT software. Make it funny but with a serious point.

In the past, particularly with the toaster, I've always perceived the video adverts as cheesy and low -end. NT needs to come across as high-end and slick but at a very competitive price. The ultimate message has to be "Why buy grossly expensive products when you can do the same at a vastly reduced cost?".

Get production values way up and focus on high end values not low-end cost. Make people think your going to be really expensive then drop in the costs. You don't even have to mention price - a couple of maya boxes next to a pile of LW boxes gets the idea across (what would you rather have in your studio? ).

If Newtek had the production values of a lot of flash based advertising, they would be doing a lot better. Maybe they should check out the production values on www.thefwa.com? Make LW and toaster sexy products not things for garage geeks.

Kicks soapbox aside..

JBT27
03-30-2008, 10:57 AM
I have the feeling that NT tends to be a bit frugal when spending money, so I guess that hiring some hot shot marketing team might be out of the question.

I'd trying and get hold of a promising marketing creative whose not yet established but has a bit of a vibe - just left college, or early in their career and let them loose.

<snip>

I think that largely newtek has been stuck in a deep rut marketing wise. I don't think NT needs a huge advertising budget, just some slick advertising to show that people are throwing away money if they don't use NT software. Make it funny but with a serious point.

<snip>

Actually, that kind of approach is quite good - memorable. Self-depracation, not overdone, and tongue-in-cheek, can be very powerful.....so NT and LW have this somewhat downer reputation, the underdog. But rather than fight that, why not run with it, use peoples perception of LW against them, in a nice way - make some fun out of it while running a 'killer' reel alongside it, complete with shots that alot of potential users will recognise from major TV shows, and so on.

Most long-time LW users have a sense of how LW is disregarded in large parts of the industry, but don't get pissy about it, use it as a selling point.

It would have to be a clever campaign, and that may not come cheap, but it has to be worth it.....it would be quite refreshing to see advertising like that in the software industry as well.

Julian.

inkpen3d
03-31-2008, 06:59 AM
Recently 3D World included a set of eight 3D software reference cards and guess which software was missing from that set? I also noticed that Computer Arts did a quick round-up of 3D software and a certain program was missing. In both cases Cinema 4D was included..

I bought that issue as well (solely for the free imageSynth plugin) and was doubly gob-smacked by that shortcuts card - firstly because LW was absent and secondly, because Bryce was included (which just added insult to injury). Why Bryce for heaven's sake? I can only think that 3D World are extracting the urine!

Here's the full list of applications on the card:

3ds Max
Bryce
Carrara
DAZ Studio
Maxwell Render
Maya
modo
MotionBuilder

BTW, the card went into the paper recycling bin where hopefully it will serve a more useful purpose!

pooby
03-31-2008, 07:10 AM
As nice as the new changes are for us users, they're not going to impress anyone else to a large degree. it will come across as,

'Look. LW isn't quite as bad as you might think it is. Some bits are even really good'

I'm sure that once Newtek have something to shout about then they will. I think it's better to hold out until this core swapping business is much further on.
There's no point crying wolf right now.

pauland
03-31-2008, 07:22 AM
Newtek may have problems, but in other technology sectors I have seen inferior products outsell their rivals and become dominant in the market because they recognised the power of marketing. This seems to be a concept that Newtek hasn't really grasped yet, but it's rivals really seem to understand.

colkai
03-31-2008, 07:25 AM
Actually, that kind of approach is quite good - memorable. Self-depracation, not overdone, and tongue-in-cheek, can be very powerful.....
Julian.

It worked really well for Skoda cars here in the UK, you've probably noticed yourself.
"It's a Skoda...honest" and "oh no..another Skoda"

Now, I see as many Fabias / Octavias as I do Fords. :)

Oh, yes, I do drive a Skoda. ;)

EDIT: Dang! - It only just occurred to me that you're "just down the road" in Chester hehe...

pumeco
03-31-2008, 07:44 AM
Because I'm mainly a hobbyist, I can relax and see LightWave for what it 'actually' is, and that's an incredibly powerful product. C4D has only one thing over LightWave as far as I'm concerned, and that's it's inegrated BodyPaint. But then LightWave doesn't cost anything like C4D would cost with the plugins to match what LightWave has out of the box.

I think the bottom line with LightWave is see what happens with LWX.
Unified tools, built-in FPrime or similar, and integrated painting (hopefully).

Steamthrower
03-31-2008, 10:50 AM
I was disappointed to see the LW ads in Cinefex drop out. They're replaced by XSI ads and Maya ads.

A guy like William Vaughan is incredibly helpful to "spread the word" so to speak. Yet it doesn't get widespread viewing like a full-page ad in a trade publication gets. If NT spent a bit of money and threw together a reel with all the LW appearances in TV, film, etc...itd be invaluable.

jcupp
03-31-2008, 11:36 AM
I used to work in the music equipment business and I'm sure the graphics and video business works the same way. You get editorial coverage for your product in direct proportion to the number of full page ads you buy. Want great reviews or a monthly how-to column? Then buy back covers for $10k per issue. It's only money after all.

The question is does spending hundreds of thousands on 'zine ads translate into enough additional sales to have a positive ROI? Looking at, say, Avid's recent bottom line I'd say maybe not.

Steamthrower
03-31-2008, 11:53 AM
I haven't seen many Avid ads either, though!

Iain
03-31-2008, 12:55 PM
XSI isn't heavily promoted so it's gaining ground (again) just by being good.

AbnRanger
04-01-2008, 12:24 PM
XSI isn't heavily promoted so it's gaining ground (again) just by being good.You don't see XSI banners on cgsociety?

jcupp
04-01-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm just saying that it's pretty easy to complain about the lack of NewTek marketing when you aren't the one cutting the $10,000 checks.

JBT27
04-01-2008, 01:47 PM
I bought that issue as well (solely for the free imageSynth plugin) and was doubly gob-smacked by that shortcuts card - firstly because LW was absent and secondly, because Bryce was included (which just added insult to injury). Why Bryce for heaven's sake? I can only think that 3D World are extracting the urine!

Here's the full list of applications on the card:

3ds Max
Bryce
Carrara
DAZ Studio
Maxwell Render
Maya
modo
MotionBuilder

BTW, the card went into the paper recycling bin where hopefully it will serve a more useful purpose!

I didn't see that issue, but that's a very odd list.....not just LW left off but XSI as well.....as far as I'm concerned, whoever it is needs to tighten their act up - right now their opinion ain't worth the card that's about to get recycled :D

Julian.

Steamthrower
04-01-2008, 02:03 PM
DAZ Studio, Bryce, and Carrara on the same list? Seems like Daz has someone in their back pockets. I mean, that's ridiculous. Motion Builder shouldn't even be a seperate app. How about:

3ds Max
Maya
Houdini
XSI
Lightwave
modo
Blender

That's a bit more competent, maybe.

JBT27
04-01-2008, 02:06 PM
It worked really well for Skoda cars here in the UK, you've probably noticed yourself.
"It's a Skoda...honest" and "oh no..another Skoda"

Now, I see as many Fabias / Octavias as I do Fords. :)

Oh, yes, I do drive a Skoda. ;)

EDIT: Dang! - It only just occurred to me that you're "just down the road" in Chester hehe...

Yep - works a treat, at least in the UK - you still don't see that type of approach that often in ads, which is good I guess because they stand out, but it's very refreshing when you do, and I usually have instant respect for anyone or company that can make fun of itself and use it to good intent - now that's smart :)

Years and years ago, there were two or three stop-motion ads in the UK, of a classic Philip Marlowe type private eye, advertising a beer that I've now forgotten (so the ad worked well then :hey:) - at the end of each he'd be drinking his pint in a pub but land in some compromising situation, like the gangsters moll proposing marriage and kids and a mortgage to him.....you then saw him getting out quick with the catchline "It's good.....but not that good!" .....and that ad series worked extremely well.

Go on NT - give it a go.....no shortage of animators and storytellers around here that's for sure..... :hey::D

Yes!! Down the road - can't be much more than 40 miles, if that! Well, if we're ever over that way, we could always call in ..... :)

Julian.

AbnRanger
04-01-2008, 03:01 PM
I think it makes business sense to hold your marketing dollars until more opportune circumstances...such as them dropping a new full version or when they finish the core rebuild. Sending out your demoreel in the midst of your updating it doesn't make much sense, does it?

zapper1998
04-01-2008, 03:04 PM
Yes, makes you think who's really the underdog.

I wish Newtek would get an innovative marketeer. I sometimes think the ship is afloat but the rudder lost.You mean the rudder fell off .....

colkai
04-02-2008, 02:46 AM
Yes!! Down the road - can't be much more than 40 miles, if that! Well, if we're ever over that way, we could always call in ..... :)

Julian.

I'd wager much less, of course, I spend half my weekends in Staffordshire. :D

You'd be welcome over here anytime BTW. :)

I do think it may be a smart move to utilise that "Oh, LW isn't proper" attitude, you know, use a standard glib response from the naysayers then have a clip showing just that. Another followed by some FX company saying the complete opposite, whilst ideally mentioning where it was used in such a manner on a feature or TV show. :) Etc... ;)

JBT27
04-02-2008, 03:35 AM
I'd wager much less, of course, I spend half my weekends in Staffordshire. :D

You'd be welcome over here anytime BTW. :)

Thanks! More likely a weekday anyway I think - if I see we are likely to be in the area, I'll drop you a private message.


I do think it may be a smart move to utilise that "Oh, LW isn't proper" attitude, you know, use a standard glib response from the naysayers then have a clip showing just that. Another followed by some FX company saying the complete opposite, whilst ideally mentioning where it was used in such a manner on a feature or TV show. :) Etc... ;)

Yes, I can't really see that idea back-firing. People who know and work with LW don't need telling, and the great hordes of non-users who qualify as nay-sayers may well be impressed or at least caught off guard by such an approach.

Julian.

inkpen3d
04-02-2008, 04:25 AM
I didn't see that issue, but that's a very odd list.....not just LW left off but XSI as well.....as far as I'm concerned, whoever it is needs to tighten their act up - right now their opinion ain't worth the card that's about to get recycled :D

Julian.

FYI, that was the April issue (103) I was referring to there. Totally agree with you regarding your comment.

Matt
04-02-2008, 04:46 AM
I bought that issue as well (solely for the free imageSynth plugin) and was doubly gob-smacked by that shortcuts card - firstly because LW was absent and secondly, because Bryce was included (which just added insult to injury). Why Bryce for heaven's sake? I can only think that 3D World are extracting the urine!

Here's the full list of applications on the card:

3ds Max
Bryce
Carrara
DAZ Studio
Maxwell Render
Maya
modo
MotionBuilder

BTW, the card went into the paper recycling bin where hopefully it will serve a more useful purpose!

Does NT advertise in that mag? Maybe that's the reason! ;)

inkpen3d
04-02-2008, 05:07 AM
Does NT advertise in that mag? Maybe that's the reason! ;)

Not currently as far as I can tell. However, I no longer buy 3DW on a regular basis since I think it's gone downhill in recent years. Maybe someone who does get it monthly might be able to answer this question better. I do remember that a few years back NT used have a few adverts in 3DW in the form a of 2-page spread in which various LW artists were interviewed and described how they'd used it on various big projects.

Iain
04-02-2008, 05:40 AM
You don't see XSI banners on cgsociety?

Can't say I do. After years of ignoring everything on the periphery of my browser, I honestly don't pay heed to banners on any website.

It's harder to ignore full page ads in something like 3DWorld and that just seems to be Autodesk all the way.

Exception
04-02-2008, 07:57 AM
We could get some money together and make and pay for our own LW advert in some magazines :)

Mitja
04-02-2008, 08:21 AM
...and T-Shirts, don't forget about T-Shirts!

jburford
04-02-2008, 08:58 AM
FYI, that was the April issue (103) I was referring to there. Totally agree with you regarding your comment.

3DW is not as bad as Digital Production (dp) here in Germany. Athough there is more spots or info on Lightwave, they pretty much do all they can to torpedo it.

There was comparisons in the past between various 3D Packages of which Lightwave was listed. The only trouble there was downplaying Lightwave and it's abilities as well as it's use in an professional environment. Then, the last comment about LW was, .... oh, and by the way, Lightwave Artists earn much much less than other 3D Artists in trying to sway up and coming artists away from it.

Later about a few months after Sin City came out, there was a nice Article on Sin City and the advances and wonderful graphics and effects, they even highlighted CafeFX!!! The only odd part of it was they they heavily editited the information from CafeFX and left out all parts and mention of Lightwave..... Not a single word about it... Hmnn, makes you think......

Disclaimer: The Following Statement is not from Newtek, nor endorsed by Newtek or any of it's employees. It is solely a statement and believe by myself.

(ok, will say it, makes one really believe that they receive money behind the scenes from certain other products to torpedo specific products.....)

Just my thoughts on the matter.

jburford
04-02-2008, 08:59 AM
. . .

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/profiles/JeffGoldman/

jburford
04-02-2008, 09:06 AM
(Perhaps NT does this, but . . . . )

To me, if I were Newtek or had to do with it's Marketing, I would definately try to get tons of copies of LW into the various 3D Schools and Animation Departments of various Universities for free and into the hands of upcoming Artists. Get them and their Profs sold on it or using it.

This alone is not everything, but think would definately be a step in the right direction.

Also, some spruch like Pepsi's "Generation X" for LW.

colkai
04-02-2008, 09:37 AM
It's harder to ignore full page ads in something like 3DWorld and that just seems to be Autodesk all the way.

Yup, got to the stage it was a running advertorial for Autodesk products.
That's what world domination will get ya! ;)

AbnRanger
04-02-2008, 03:40 PM
(Perhaps NT does this, but . . . . )

To me, if I were Newtek or had to do with it's Marketing, I would definately try to get tons of copies of LW into the various 3D Schools and Animation Departments of various Universities for free and into the hands of upcoming Artists. Get them and their Profs sold on it or using it.

This alone is not everything, but think would definately be a step in the right direction.

Also, some spruch like Pepsi's "Generation X" for LW.The catch there is 1) Animation schools often consider Maya or Max as "Industry Standard"...and largely they are right. If you want to prepare Graphic Design students for the job market, it's not going to do them any favors teaching them Corel PhotoPaint instead of PhotoShop.
2) Along that vein, you also have to be able to hire competent LW instructors to teach...not a really big pool to draw from.