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Beamtracer
07-16-2003, 04:38 PM
http://www.microsoft.com/library/toolbar/images/mslogo.gif
I have noticed that there has been a sudden influx of Windows users to the Mac Lightwave forum lately.

I welcome you all, but am curious about what has brought everyone here.

They tell us how much they love using Microsoft Windows.
They tell us that Apple is about to go out of business.
They tell us that products that are leaving the Mac ('cause they can't compete) are so much better.


http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/images/billg-title.jpg
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/images/billg-1.jpg
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/images/bnr-microsoft.gif

Could the announcement of the super-fast Apple G5 have anything to do with all this? Could this be a case of processor envy?

js33
07-16-2003, 05:15 PM
Don't forget Beam that alot of us use both systems.:D

Also I just got Digital Fusion in the free deal with upgrade to 8 and it only runs on windows. :D

Cheers,
JS

js33
07-16-2003, 06:12 PM
Also Beam you live to much in Mac fantasy land.

I use the best tool for the job. As far as LW goes that is the PC right now. As for video I plan to use the Mac for that but haven't yet really. Also I may buy DVDSP for the Mac unless Adobe's Encore is just as good.

I would hate to be tied to one platform. Especially when historically that platform was an after thought to most vendors.

I hope things get better for Mac only users when the G5 comes out.

Cheers,
JS

Ade
07-16-2003, 07:49 PM
Why would a pc/mac user fight to get more parity between the platforms when u would just take the easy way out and stay with the pc. There is no commitment value. Thus no help to us.

Full switchers count.

drclare
07-16-2003, 08:14 PM
And i think Beam's point was that this is a MAC forum. It is for MAC LW users to discuss MAC issues. It's not really a place to get into a PC vs. Mac contest.

Beamtracer
07-16-2003, 08:28 PM
No, I don't take offense when Windows users come to this forum to tell us how much better they think Windows is. It's amusing, really.

I just wondered why so many are here now, defending the Windows platform.

Apple is releasing so many cool things lately, software and hardware. I think the Windows users are curious, and maybe even... envious!!!

js33
07-16-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by drclare
And i think Beam's point was that this is a MAC forum. It is for MAC LW users to discuss MAC issues. It's not really a place to get into a PC vs. Mac contest.

Yeah well why did he post about Windows in the LW Mac forum then? I just pointed out that some of own and use both platforms.:D

Cheers,
JS

dark_lotus
07-16-2003, 09:39 PM
I think there are alot of windows users that just don't believe how good mac really is, and just attribute it to typical fanboy behaivour.

I love macs cause they're pretty.

hokeypokey
07-17-2003, 01:01 AM
Jeeez! What is wrong with everybody?

Why get into spitting matches with these PC goofs? You want to know why they are here? Because the whole Apple experience is a carnal journey through a land of inovation and creativity. We Mac users have a relationship with our computers. To us it's not so much about making money, but about the ride. It's about creating the look for a new product, or the product itself, not redesigning the wrapper for the McDonalds double cheesburger. Why are they here? Why is there such a riot going on about abortion, and not about stopping the idiot from having a baby in the first place? Why are there so many abused and neglected children in this world, but we don't care until they become serial killers or abusers themselves? Why is so much blood shed over religion? Why? For the same reasons there are so many Windows users. In general, people are just kind of like hampsters. Every morning they get up and eat some crap, and get on the wheel. That's what most people do. Then suddenly, someone decides to crawl out of the cage and do something different (hence the phrase "Think Different"). Everyone else stands to the side in fear until they know the coast is clear. Then they all play follow the leader bla, bla, bla. Just like the followers of some other prominant leaders, they are all oblivious to his decadent lifestyle at their expense. Why are they here? Why are there so many of them? For the same reason tour busses full of followers drive by the homes of the rich and famous, and wish they were on the other side of the cage. :o :p :p

drclare
07-17-2003, 01:09 AM
Well Put.

DaveW
07-17-2003, 01:28 AM
I use Mac and Windows and Linux. I haven't come to the Mac forum very often in the past because I use LW on Windows. But yeah, the G5 announcement made me come here more often because for the first time in a long time the Mac will be competitive with PC's for 3d work, so I'm more interested in what's going on in the Mac LW world.

Ade, of course I'm going to take the easy route. Computer platform is not a religion for me, never has and never will. I like OSX, Windows, Linux, if any of them were to disappear tomorrow I would be sad for 2 seconds and then move on with life. That may not help the Mac cause but I don't care, there are things more important to me than being an Mac activist. Obviously you feel different and that's fine with me, everyone needs a hobby :)

hokeypokey, posts like yours are the reason people get into Mac vs. PC wars in the first place. Mac zealots make a post like that and then wonder why PC users take offense? It reflects poorly on Mac users and probably does more damage to the Mac platform than good. You probably think you're enlightened but you sound like an arrogant prick. Like art or music snobs who think they're cool because they have obscure taste. Get over yourself.

pauland
07-17-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

I have noticed that there has been a sudden influx of Windows users to the Mac Lightwave forum lately.

I welcome you all
Thank you.

, but am curious about what has brought everyone here.
I like how macs look and I like much of the mac philosophy. I like the idea that there are companies holding out against M$ even though I don't have a Mac. I like to follow what's happening in the Mac world.


They tell us how much they love using Microsoft Windows.
They tell us that Apple is about to go out of business.
They tell us that products that are leaving the Mac ('cause they can't compete) are so much better.
The snide remarks against windows/PC users after welcoming them, doesn't really show you in a positive light.


Could the announcement of the super-fast Apple G5 have anything to do with all this? Could this be a case of processor envy?
The G5 looks cool. I'd love to have one. This whole 'my processor is better than yours' thing is just infantile, as is 'my mac is better than your PC' or vice-versa.

Get the chip off your shoulder and enjoy your Mac for the great machine it is. As a PC user I'll put up with windows and M$ because I can't afford the price differentials between Mac and PC.

What's the coolest looking thing on a desktop? It's definitely a Mac. What's the saddest thing on the Mac/PC forums? people who perpetuate the Mac/PC divide.

Paul

fxgeek
07-17-2003, 08:23 AM
Beam has raised a good point though. I have noticed lately on these forums that anytime anyone posts something platform related, it quickly descends into a mud flinging match. It's very frustrating.

Aegis
07-17-2003, 08:29 AM
I'm just interested in LightWave - thus I browse all the forums - didn't realise I had to own a Mac to have an opinion here ;)

pauland
07-17-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by fxgeek
Beam has raised a good point though. I have noticed lately on these forums that anytime anyone posts something platform related, it quickly descends into a mud flinging match. It's very frustrating.
Unfortunately, Beam actually threw some mud himself this time. There's plenty of LW users from both Mac and Windows camps that have mud on their hands.

Paul

Lightwolf
07-17-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
I'm just interested in LightWave - thus I browse all the forums - didn't realise I had to own a Mac to have an opinion here ;)
Yeah, me too... I just look at the headlines of the threads since I check for new posts once or twice a day...
I do find the Macs quite interesting if they live up to the hype, alas the predecessors didn't so I'm wary. If they do I might switch, so I find it interesting to read and post on the other die of the fence.
May be I shouldn't...
Cheers,
Mike

Ade
07-17-2003, 09:09 AM
The pc forum is actually dead...
interesting..
Well all I can say is I welcome any pc user wanting to get a mac, if he needs any type of purchasing help we will be glad to help you, but understandably if you are a pc user coming here cause you are bored and decide to be cynical towards any of our discussions, you wont receive much fan fare. I expect vice versa.

So any pc user wanting to switch and have questions feel free to ask.

Lightwolf
07-17-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Ade
but understandably if you are a pc user coming here cause you are bored and decide to be synical towards any of our discussions, you wont receive much fan fare.
Actually, I seem to get plenty of fan fare ;)
Don't these Macs have spell checkers? *ouch, runs for cover and hides* ;)
Cheerio,
Mike ;) <- please note !!!

Ade
07-17-2003, 09:17 AM
I was using MS Word...

Lightwolf
07-17-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Ade
I was using MS Word...
I use Opera to browse the net ;)

Red_Oddity
07-17-2003, 09:39 AM
Sjeeezzz people...
The reason 'I' browse the Mac forums is because i have Macs, and use them, and they have bugs and act weird in general...thus i come here, hoping some Mac users might know an answer...but before you know it someone starts going tribal over my *** because they hear you mention PC or Windows...

And i do take offence on some of the posts in this thread...the sort of bigotry i see there reminds me a lot of a certain situation in Europe/Germany 1938-1945...
Yes, i use a PC, but i am in no way inferiour to any of you, nor is the work i do on a PC of less importance then when i would have made it on a Mac, and yes, shock..horror...i do have an opinion of my own...

...Christ...the software is exactly the same on both platforms (LW, PS, AFX, C*2, etc..)

Ade
07-17-2003, 09:42 AM
What makes u think we were referring to you Red LOL...heheh.. That sort of paranoia was the sort of thing reminiscent of USSR/USA 1950's-1960's.


Better duck and cover..

Jimzip
07-17-2003, 09:45 AM
I like Lightwave.

Jimzip :D

Lightwolf
07-17-2003, 09:45 AM
Well, the problem is for me:
The PC and the Mac forum are imho for problems specific to that platform.
If it ain't LW (or VTNT) related it ought to be in General Discussion (like the G5 discussion), if it is about adding features (like Rendezvous support), there's LW-Feature Requests.
However, If I see a thread come up here that I'm interested in, I jump in. And there were a few, none of them strictly Mac LW support posts.
my 2 cents,
Mike

Red_Oddity
07-17-2003, 09:50 AM
Nah, we never had a cold war...i'm euro trash, sort to say...

Who ever made that duck and cover crap up anyway? Like a 40ton nuclear blast will spare your schoolbench...Unless it's a 6ton lead schoolbench...

Ade
07-17-2003, 09:55 AM
LOL yeah I thought it was even funnier in Dr Stangelove..

redlum
07-17-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
I have noticed that there has been a sudden influx of Windows users to the Mac Lightwave forum lately.

I welcome you all, but am curious about what has brought everyone here.

They tell us how much they love using Microsoft Windows.
They tell us that Apple is about to go out of business.
They tell us that products that are leaving the Mac ('cause they can't compete) are so much better.

Could the announcement of the super-fast Apple G5 have anything to do with all this? Could this be a case of processor envy?

I work in an office that only uses pc. I also have a mac at home. Lightwave is on both machines and they both have problems but I'd rather have a mac anyday. I really get sick of the pissing contest that some pc users like to get into over pc/mac stuff. I figure it's mostly due to youth and ignorance.

Just to let them know who their working with I brought a copy of the Aqua desktop image from OSX, converted it to a bmp and put it on my window box at work. Of course I put the icons on the right side of the screen where they belong too. :-)

theosmekhanes
07-17-2003, 02:41 PM
Yeah-!!

I have to chime in on this one, because I am THE Mac zealot.

The thing I hate more than endless Mac vrs Pc debates are the people that try to diffuse the argument by saying that a computer is a computer, and it's just a matter of preference.

Well to me It's not so trivial. It is nearly a religion. I believe in humanistic, ethical design. I believe in honest accounting and sustainable growth. I am a highly educated creative professional with refined tastes and so are the people at Apple. The Mac platform reflects my values as an artist and a human being.

I will fight for my beliefs when they are challenged and I will work to further the cause of ethical design. MacroShaft, to me, represents everything cynical, ignorant, and ugly about America. Apple Inspires my soul and gives me hope for the future.

So, yeah Beam, I think they are envious.

DaveW
07-17-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
Yeah-!!

I have to chime in on this one, because I am THE Mac zealot.

The thing I hate more than endless Mac vrs Pc debates are the people that try to diffuse the argument by saying that a computer is a computer, and it's just a matter of preference.

Well to me It's not so trivial. It is nearly a religion. I believe in humanistic, ethical design. I believe in honest accounting and sustainable growth. I am a highly educated creative professional with refined tastes and so are the people at Apple. The Mac platform reflects my values as an artist and a human being.

I will fight for my beliefs when they are challenged and I will work to further the cause of ethical design. MacroShaft, to me, represents everything cynical, ignorant, and ugly about America. Apple Inspires my soul and gives me hope for the future.

So, yeah Beam, I think they are envious.

So how do you feel about Apple when they screw over customers and developers? They are just as bad as Microsoft, they're just too small to wreak the same degree of havoc. All Apple inspires in me is a lack of trust, same as any big corporation.

If you think of Mac as a religion that's fine with me, but can't you just accept that there are other religions? It's one thing to defend the Mac when some moron makes a bunch of anti-Mac comments, but your statements about Apples ethics are fantasy, as is the assumption that PC users are jealous of Macs. It's not helping the situation, it just adds fuel to pointless flamewars.

Beamtracer
07-17-2003, 03:45 PM
I think it's OK to be envious! :)

Originally posted by pauland
The snide remarks against windows/PC users after welcoming them, doesn't really show you in a positive light. Ah, but my remark was...
"They tell us that products that are leaving the Mac ('cause they can't compete) are so much better. "

That's a direct reference to Adobe Premiere (which couldn't compete), so I'm sorry you took it as meaning that Windows users can't compete, which wasn't intended.

Originally posted by pauland
This whole 'my processor is better than yours' thing is just infantile, as is 'my mac is better than your PC' or vice-versa.Some of the Windows users on this thread actually admitted that they are interested in the Apple G5, which is what attracted them to the Mac forum.

When the boring Gil Amelio was in charge of Apple (wearing a suit and tie) he started churning out beige boxes and "Apple was in a coma" (quote from S. Jobs). There were some important apps that weren't there too.

Under Steve Jobs, some really really cool apps have come to the Mac that really are best of their class. However problems at Motorola encouraged a reputation that Macs were slow (before this they were always faster than Intel).

Now, it seems like the planets are finally aligning for Apple. All the factors are coming into place together. The best software. Super fast machines. A roadmap of even faster machines in the future that Intel will have difficulty matching.

I find Apple's current strategy enticing. A platform dedicated to creative professionals and artists. Cool new hardware (G5). Cool new software (FCP4, DVD.S.P etc), and even better solutions (Pixlet, Rendezvous etc).

There's some really exciting stuff going on. If the Windows users are drawn here by the bright lights, let them look on. Let them watch.

mbaldwin
07-17-2003, 03:55 PM
I agree to a point.

what many find galling, sophmoric, insipid(pick one) are the taunts of jelousy directed to anyone not owning a mac.

so groove on Apple if you want--hey i like them too. Just don't dump on everyone else in the process.

Brian Peterson
07-17-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
Yeah-!!
Well to me It's not so trivial. It is nearly a religion. I believe in humanistic, ethical design. I believe in honest accounting and sustainable growth. I am a highly educated creative professional with refined tastes and so are the people at Apple. The Mac platform reflects my values as an artist and a human being.


As someone who utilizes both platforms, it's because such comments are a continued source of mirth on a daily basis.

It's also because the Mac OS can be so much more than it is or can be under it's present direction. It's hobbled by it's price and its declawed by it's lack of choices. As long as the fanboy, snobish "aritists" build their altars to a false god, turning off the common layman it will never have a chance to challenge the Micro$haft dominance of the market, unless Apple is woke up.

And BTW it's a box, constructed of plastic, metal and silicon, it's stupid, can do nothing and without human intervention would sit there like a lump of garbage, rotting away over the next several thousand years. But the fanaticism of Mac Heads is what makes them so enjoyable to read.

theosmekhanes
07-17-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by DaveW
So how do you feel about Apple when they screw over customers and developers? They are just as bad as Microsoft, they're just too small to wreak the same degree of havoc. All Apple inspires in me is a lack of trust, same as any big corporation.

If you think of Mac as a religion that's fine with me, but can't you just accept that there are other religions? It's one thing to defend the Mac when some moron makes a bunch of anti-Mac comments, but your statements about Apples ethics are fantasy, as is the assumption that PC users are jealous of Macs. It's not helping the situation, it just adds fuel to pointless flamewars.

Well DaveW who got "screwed over" and when? You are right in that any Corporation must make decisions to respond to market forces wether its MS or Apple. You are mistaken that Apple's ethics are fantasy, I was referring to "design ethics" meaning that it is clearly evident in Apples products that they put people and human aesthetics first.

It is important for people to speak their conscience, else democracy is a sham (another debate). I feel that if things (furniture, computers, governments) are not designed for the betterment of culture and endowed with the creative human spirit they will only serve to bring humanity down.

I understand that some people don't care about or are not aware of these issues. Some see the computer as a generic tool, Ugly, inhuman and clunky. "what ever gets the job done". Well, I see the Computer as a direct extension of my mind and my creative spirit. Only the Mac is worthy of me.

to break the Car metaphor-

PCs= reality TV... "Blech", dime-a-dozen trash!
Macs= HBO's TV line up, Wow real writing and human drama!

P.S.

to the PC onlookers; don't let me scare you away this is all in fun. ;)

theosmekhanes
07-17-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Brian Peterson
As someone who utilizes both platforms, it's because such comments are a continued source of mirth on a daily basis.

It's also because the Mac OS can be so much more than it is or can be under it's present direction. It's hobbled by it's price and its declawed by it's lack of choices. As long as the fanboy, snobish "aritists" build their altars to a false god, turning off the common layman it will never have a chance to challenge the Micro$haft dominance of the market, unless Apple is woke up.

Mac OS hobbled by it's price? Where do you shop? The last time I checked the Mac OS cost less than Windows (and we don't pay for service packs) There is a minor price premium on the Mac hardware, but It is worth it.

And to hell with the Laymen. Apple does not need to be the dominant desktop platform to win. Apple has already won the hearts of Artists, Designers and Musicians, the people that make the very things that drive the consumer economy.

There is not much money to be made in selling commodity desktop computers, Gateway and Dell are figuring that out. The future is in consumer lifestyle devices. Apple has proven with the ipod that if you build a better mouse trap the world will beat a path to your door.

We can argue about who's plastic box cost's less or looks better, all day, but the adventure has only just begun.

I believe that Mac users will continue to be an elite minority, but our platform will be bolstered by Apple's coming dominance in the consumer realm.

keep in mind that all current market share stats are moot. We are still all just early adopters in the grand scheme of things. There is a vast market still untapped. Computers have still not reached the saturation of the TV or VCR.

end transmission...

P.S.

Sorry about derailing your thread Beam. Someones gotta do it

:D

Ade
07-17-2003, 07:02 PM
BTW can someone restart Beam, judging by his avatar hes frozen...

Brian Peterson
07-17-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
Mac OS hobbled by it's price? Where do you shop? The last time I checked the Mac OS cost less than Windows (and we don't pay for service packs) There is a minor price premium on the Mac hardware, but It is worth it.

Ah, neither do Windows users. I just downloaded service pack 4 for Server today, didn't cost a thing. But I do remember paying for Jaguar, which was nothing more than a service pack that actually made OS X work with the majority of programs for the Mac. Until Jag, OS X can't be considered anything but a beta release it was so poor and don't blame me for that, I'm quoting a Machead there..



I believe that Mac users will continue to be an elite minority, but our platform will be bolstered by Apple's coming dominance in the consumer realm.

"Toto, we aren't in Kansas anymore" because reality just flew out the door. I'm not going to argue the economics of the computer world here, because frankly I don't know how to respond to such fantasy. :rolleyes: But if you think overpriced machinery is going to have people flocking to Apple and that the "artist" is a large enough market to support what you are talking about, I suggest you look at the history of a Beta vs VHS. Beta was better, more expensive, invested in by the elite and is now dead as a doornail.


keep in mind that all current market share stats are moot. We are still all just early adopters in the grand scheme of things. There is a vast market still untapped. Computers have still not reached the saturation of the TV or VCR.


Early adopters!?! Oooooh-kay... What year is it?:D

Ade
07-17-2003, 10:36 PM
I think ppl need to understand Apple is a greedy american comppany like all american companies...
The thing that makes mac users stand out and be different is the community-
That community is Macintosh...not Apple the company.


I see the Apple scene more as a fascist scene...that is alright with me.

DaveW
07-18-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
Well DaveW who got "screwed over" and when? You are right in that any Corporation must make decisions to respond to market forces wether its MS or Apple. You are mistaken that Apple's ethics are fantasy, I was referring to "design ethics" meaning that it is clearly evident in Apples products that they put people and human aesthetics first.


Well most recently, they've been screwing over Sonic, the guys who make the only Hollywood level DVD authoring systems. Apple has repeatedly given false information to Sonic and changed some things in the OS to keep their DVD hardware/software on single-processor OS9 machines. They've been doing this for over a year; right now the legal departments of both companies are trying to deal with it quietly, but if it continues you can expect a lawsuit against Apple. This isn't only hurting Sonic, it's hurting all the DVD developers who are crippled by using OS9 and single-processor G4's. It's actually caused the company I work at to consider using a PC solution instead of a Mac solution.
Other times the users have been screwed are weak powersupplies that Apple wouldn't replace, those horrible hockey-puck mice and mini-keyboards that came with the Pro systems because Steve Jobs was upset that everyone was harshly criticizing them; when Apple was going to include more powerful ATI video cards but someone at ATI put out a press release too early, so SJ decided to keep using the slow old cards but not drop the price of the machines.
As for their design, well try swapping out optical drives in the older G3/G4 cases (I think was finally fixed with the newer silver cases) you'll tear your hands to shreds trying to connect the power and IDE cables. On some of the cases the little handle for the door breaks, so the case falls open at the slightest vibration. And how about those TiBooks with the silver paint that easily chips off? The Dock introduced moving targets, a big no-no in design. It also needs to be sized down to keep from getting in the way of your apps, and it can be difficult to tell which apps are running because the only indication is a little black triangle. The minimize/maximize/close buttons have their icons hidden until you mouse over them, which is confusing for new users. Apple has repeatedly taken steps to prevent users from making modifications to the look and feel of OSX, such as themes and apps that extend the functionality of the Finder.

I could keep going but I think it's pointless. Apple's design and business ethics are no better and no worse than many other companies out there. I don't think it's a problem that there are people who love Apple and all their products, but I do think it's a problem when some of these people feel they're superior to everyone else and insult people because they don't feel the same way about Apple. The same goes for Windows zealots, Linux zealots, Timex Sinclair zealots :D

Karl Hansson
07-18-2003, 01:09 PM
I just think that these forums have become somewhat hostile lately. All these PC vs Mac is just splitting hairs in my opinion, for what reason? The situation can change tomorrow and todays arguments wont matter any more. I'm almost afraid to mention that I'm using mac outside the mac forum, fearing flames.

jasonwestmas
07-18-2003, 03:22 PM
Common,
computers are just tools that change and improove with time. I'm glad there are more than just one platform, they each do things better than the other. I wish there were other types of platforms. Not to sound arbitrary and out of this world but humanity has a long way to go as far as technological development. We think that we have come so far but really, haven't we just begun?

JP Westmas:rolleyes:

toby
07-18-2003, 06:48 PM
"All these PC vs Mac is just splitting hairs in my opinion"

Yes, and I'm completely satisfied that the Mac now qualifies for a close debate in performance instead of being half as fast, I'm no longer considering getting a PC for LW, I can have one computer with damn near the same performance and keep my favorite OS.

wacom
07-18-2003, 07:02 PM
I find it funny that people can post so many times on this topic and yet get work done. Maybe I'm on the wrong machine? Anyway I hope that a Linux version of LW comes out soon just so we can mix this whole debate up even more. Then we'd all have to think diffrent...

Beamtracer
07-18-2003, 08:49 PM
Newtek designated the "PC" forum to include talk about Windows and Linux PCs.

The distinction starts to blur when you get an IBM Linux machine running the 950 (G5) PowerPC processor. It's got the Mac's G5 processor, but it's running LinuxOS and the box is from IBM.

Actually, I wish that Newtek would start a separate Linux Lightwave forum.

Rey
07-19-2003, 12:26 PM
What all Mac users should know by now is to never feed the trolls. They invade every Mac forum with their anti-Apple slant just to get a rise out of people. We've all fallen into their trap but if we remember to not respond to their childish behavior then eventually they'll go away. Are they jealous? No doubt. Misery loves company. Since the PC forum is dead and boring they want to crash and ruin the party. They want to try and make us second-think our platform as much as they do. Ignore them.

I personally don't care which platform you use. Use what gets the job done for you, but don't go into someone else's backyard and take a sh*t on his lawn just 'cause it looks like it may grow greener than yours one day. I would never go into someone's home, sit down in front of his TV and say, "Hey, how much did you pay for that? Wow, you really got screwed, that's a piece of crap. I'm planning on buying one that is cheaper with a larger and brighter screen than yours. What size is the screen I'm getting? What size is yours? Oh, on paper your screen size and resolution is higher but you know that is just marketing. They are measuring diagonally when you know that only horizontal measurements should be considered. Heh, they're silly, but anything to make a buck I guess. BTW, what's up with this uncomfortable chair. Your buying decisions are really skewed; you must be brainwashed..." If I ever did that in someone's home I'd expect nothing short of being shown the door. I always respect somone else's home, especially if they've been kind enough to invite me in. It's just the way I was raised.

RonGC
07-19-2003, 01:14 PM
It's really simple, if you dont have a Mac and visit this forum then do not insult Mac users and i promise to not insult the PC users when i visit their forum.

Jerks deserve to be flamed ;-)

Ron Cartier Mac user

DaveW
07-19-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Newtek designated the "PC" forum to include talk about Windows and Linux PCs.

The distinction starts to blur when you get an IBM Linux machine running the 950 (G5) PowerPC processor. It's got the Mac's G5 processor, but it's running LinuxOS and the box is from IBM.

Actually, I wish that Newtek would start a separate Linux Lightwave forum.

This has got me thinking (scary, I know) probably just wishful thinking, but here I go anyway:

What would you Mac wavers think about OSX workstations and a Linux PPC renderfarm from IBM or some other company selling G5's? They should be cheaper as rendernodes than using Apple computers because you could get rid of things like superdrives, firewire, optical audio, nice video cards ect. plus minimal OS costs as you can download or just buy one copy of Linux and install it on as many computers as you want. The advantage to using a PPC renderfarm over a x86 renderfarm would be that you can use your Mac workstations as rendernodes at night and you don't have to worry about the flickering textures that you get when you mix ppc and x86 processors.

Also, how would you feel about OSX computers from IBM? I know Apple wouldn't like the competition, but I think it would help the Mac platform grow.

Ed M.
07-19-2003, 09:42 PM
DaveW and anyone else who might be interested in the LINUX question.

As you know, John C. Welch is a online buddy of mine. He's also a networking expert with many years of experience administering many different platforms, public, private, government etc... The question of LINUX servers has come up from time to time in our discussions and I've kept some notes. Keep in mind that everything is about tradeoffs and the term "just use LINUX" seems to be thrown around quite a bit, so before we continue, let me just say that the choice of using LINUX as opposed to something else depends what fills the void the best for a particular requirement. With that, let me post some things that John believes we should keep in mind when thinking about using LINUX. Of course these guidelines apply to *servers*, but some of the logic can also be applied to clusters and farms as well.

- First, you want this to be a server, What you care about is ease of setup and security.

- The OS cost argument only applies if you pay for an upgrade, or a new version separate from the hardware.

- Contrary to popular belief, good LINUX support contracts are just as, if not more expensive, than Mac OS X support contracts. So any price difference there will be minor.

- Unless you download LINUX, you're paying for it. Not as much up front, but 'free' it ain't. Also, if you don't know LINUX, you're paying in time, and my time is worth real money, as I'm sure anyone's is. In production environments it can even be worth MUCH more.

- Actually, OS X is more like LINUX with a functional UI and an attitude that is more helpful to users. If you already have a Mac-centric environment, there's no logical reason to go with LINUX.

- Any cost savings will evaporate in the time taken to learn how to properly run a LINUX server, and/or the consultant fees associated with it. A nice XServe, might be a better technical fit depending on your environment.

- For someone new to LINUX, the initial cost is going to be *very* minor compared to time spent either learning to not only use LINUX, but administer a LINUX server *correctly*, or paying someone else to do it. Time is not free, nor are consultants

- Quality of LINUX. You have to ask yourself: In what respect? Ease of use, usability, or documentation? GNOME and KDE are only now getting within eventual reach of not being a fetid pile of UI garbage. OS X is already much further along here.

- If you're learning LINUX, you aren't doing much of anything else. If you make a mistake with a production server in a production environment, other people can't work. This is the workplace, not your home network. Costs associated with mistakes can be expensive and add up quickly.

- Basic LINUX doesn't get you a secure box, a solid backup system, reliability, redundancy, etc. That's where it gets expensive. Basics are always cheap. And $25 an hour is cheap.

- An under $500 server doesn't give you RAID, remote notification of imminent hardware failure, a parts kit so if the server dies after CompUSA closes, you can still get it back online, a support contract, redundant internal components. $500 gets you a booted system on a desktop. That is NOT a server.

--
Ed M.

Beamtracer
07-19-2003, 09:50 PM
IBM won't be releasing OS X machines.

IBM will release Linux-only boxes with 970 (G5) processors that won't run OS X.
This is probably worth a separate thread, though.

Regarding Windows users: I don't mind them coming into the Mac forum if they're polite. Maybe they'll become interested in Apple technology and buy a Mac.

As I said before, it takes two to tango to get a platform war going. Someone has to oppose the Mac, and then the Mac users defend their platform. As Rey said, maybe we shouldn't feed the trolls.

Steve Jobs once commented about some of the executives in charge of Windows PC manufacturers. He said that if they weren't selling computers they'd be selling something else. It's all just generic stuff.

He indicated that the Mac is created by people with a passion for what they are doing, and it shows. The same may be said about the people who use Apple equipment.

Ade
07-19-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
IBM won't be releasing OS X machines.

IBM will release Linux-only boxes with 970 (G5) processors that won't run OS X.
This is probably worth a separate thread, though.

Regarding Windows users: I don't mind them coming into the Mac forum if they're polite. Maybe they'll become interested in Apple technology and buy a Mac.

As I said before, it takes two to tango to get a platform war going. Someone has to oppose the Mac, and then the Mac users defend their platform. As Rey said, maybe we shouldn't feed the trolls.

Steve Jobs once commented about some of the executives in charge of Windows PC manufacturers. He said that if they weren't selling computers they'd be selling something else. It's all just generic stuff.

He indicated that the Mac is created by people with a passion for what they are doing, and it shows. The same may be said about the people who use Apple equipment.


Beam how hard do you think it would be for the "cracker"...I mean Linux community to create a way for these IBM machines to boot into OSX?
They did it for the xbox, ipods, xposfactor etc...

It was said OSX will not run on 604 PPC but xposfactor did it.

jcool
07-19-2003, 11:06 PM
Good lord, get over your computer.

Platform zealots are extremely annoying to the rest of us that need to get work done, and don't worship a hunk of plastic and metal. I've used Windows machines for years, and they work fine. Period. I've got a OSX box and a room full of Macs at work, and guess what, they work fine too. I'm here for Mac specific information about Lightwave, not to listen to some screwball wax poetic about the freakin' position of the trash can and the color of the buttons. Or worse, break out the tin foil hats and talk about M$ (ooh, I used a dollar sign! I'm clever), world domination. If anyone should complain, it should be everyone else that has to listen to this elitist Mac crap that everyone has to listen to if you get involved with Macs at any level.

Jimzip
07-20-2003, 01:25 AM
Stop thread now.
Moderators feel free to delete away! (The thread was never going anywhere anyway).


Jimzip :D

Ed M.
07-20-2003, 07:32 AM
Listen to jcool trying to sound all smart. Just look at his sig... What a looozzzzer :rolleyes:

The trouble is he didn't have to bother visiting this particular thread, but he did. Anyway, I agree with Jim, the Mods should lock this thread now because It's becoming infested with trolls.

--
Ed

jcool
07-20-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Ed M.
Listen to jcool trying to sound all smart. Just look at his sig... What a looozzzzer :rolleyes:

The trouble is he didn't have to bother visiting this particular thread, but he did. Anyway, I agree with Jim, the Mods should lock this thread now because It's becoming infested with trolls.

--
Ed

Considering this thread basically IS a troll "What's up with all those annoying windows people... are they jealous of our holy machine?", it would be pretty ironic to lock it on account of "trolls."

Hey, it's pretty easy to sound smart if you are... ;)

DaveW
07-20-2003, 01:09 PM
Ed, I'm not sure a lot of those points really apply to a renderfarm. I think you're right about a server, it would probably be easier to use OSX especially if you're not very familiar with Linux. For a renderfarm, at least in my experience, you get the computers up and running and then you can pretty much forget about them. Aside from a few OS updates there is very little you have to do on the render nodes, especially if you use a shared content directory on the server. My experience with renderfarms is just a 5 cpu renderfarm so maybe there are other factors to consider when you have 500 cpu renderfarm. It's true that the initial cost is only a small part of the total cost of using Linux, but for smaller shops it can make a big difference. When it comes to upgrading the OS, with Linux I can buy one upgrade and install it on all 5 of my rendernodes. That costs me about $25 shipped. Lets say those were Macs and I needed to upgrade to Jaguar. $645, plus shipping if I don't have a retailer nearby that sells Jaguar. $645 can buy an upgrade for LW, it can buy new plugins, ect. Combine those savings with the savings of getting stripped down machines for the rendernodes instead of having to buy PowerMacs and it can be pretty significant. I assume the cost savings scale up fairly well considering all the large cg houses that are using Linux. I don't know how well this would all work on PPC though, the only PPC Linuxes I know of are Suse and Yellowdog. I've never used Yellowdog but I've used Suse on x86 and the current releases are pretty good but the PPC version is lagging behind as there isn't much demand for it.

Beam, I know IBM isn't making OSX machines, it was a purely hypothetical question, I was just curious what people here think aobut the idea.

js33
07-20-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by jcool
Good lord, get over your computer.
I'm here for Mac specific information about Lightwave, not to listen to some screwball wax poetic about the freakin' position of the trash can and the color of the buttons. Or worse, break out the tin foil hats and talk about M$ (ooh, I used a dollar sign! I'm clever), world domination.

Beam are you listening. :D :D

Hehehehe. That was funny. One of these days I'm going to make an animation about the platform wars.:D

This thread gives me alot of ideas.

Cheers,
JS

hokeypokey
07-20-2003, 06:23 PM
Umm,
If you sh*t in some guy's yard, it will be greener!

iandavis
07-20-2003, 09:32 PM
I think the windows/mac debate is more then a "mine is better then yours" issue as far as LW is concerned. Myself, I'm what you would call a 'switcher'.

I have used both platforms for a LONG time. Macintosh always being my personal favorite. In fact I used to be a bit of a macbible thumper.

Until I bought LW that is... it taught me the whole 'tools for the right job' philosophy.

Now I use LW on my Athlon and it's sweet, and use everything else, like photoshop, illustrator, director, flash, etc. on my mac... and that's sweet.

Honestly i know lots of people cheerfully working with a mac and LW without issue, and with OSX being as FREAKIN stable as it is, it's a good thing. however, there are a couple of issues any mac user must face using LW on a mac...

- really crappy video cards. Want a Radeon 9800 pro with 256MB of RAM and you have a mac... well too bad... or for that matter, want any decent video card which is available for the mac (not many) you PAY PAY PAY.
- A good deal of plugins (especially the free ones) are available windows only.
- windows based hardware is cheaper... I mean really, it is. More bang for your buck.

I cant say now how LW is to run on a mac, I just know that it was SO ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE under OS9 that I ran screaming in the loving arms of windows. I hear now it's at least as stable under OSX as on any flavour of windows. Whew! I thought for sure LW mac users were going to lynch somebody.

On the other hand. When was the last time anyone spent 12 hours re-installing OSX and all your applications? Or had your mac FORGET where the OS was installed.

come on people! neither platform is perfect, it's a personal choice for the current strengths each system happens to offer each user.

And now when you buy LW it's dual platform install anyway... so what's the big issue?

I'm a windentosh user, the best of both worlds. he he..

Red_Oddity
07-21-2003, 03:38 AM
Oh yeah...well....ermm...ehhhrrr....MY PENIS IS BIGGER THAN YOURS...yeah...that'll shut him up...


(sorry, but these threads really ain't going anywhere anymore...they're fun though...)

tallscot
07-23-2003, 05:24 PM
As long as the software I want to use is on the Mac, I will continue to use the Mac and prefer it over my Windows PC.

Beyond that, I don't care who uses the Mac or why they use the Mac, any more than I care what brand toaster you use to toast your English muffins.

I would like more people to buy Macs simply because it will keep Apple in business and I can keep using the platform I prefer.

Red_Oddity
07-24-2003, 03:21 AM
I don't think Apple will go out of business soon...hate to say this as a 'rather use a PC over a Mac' user, but Apple has some nice things going lately (FCP, Shake, iTunes and it's services, G5?)

riki
07-24-2003, 05:21 AM
This thread was really uneccesary, it only serves to divide the LW community.

Ade
07-24-2003, 09:25 AM
"Agreed.....Your honour, I move for one of those case dismissed thingies"...

http://www.thesimpsonsplanet.de/grafik/springfielder/hutson.gif

stef
07-24-2003, 10:09 AM
It is time to grow up. Claiming that one platform is better than the other is absurd. Each platforms has its merits. As far as Mac is concerned there is currently a huge disadvantage for its users to do a parity job with PC folks. But having a huge zealous base is the reason Apple can rip off its clients with high prices and e.g. lack of tablet pc. While being a Mac user since 1987, I questioned that on the Apple site - they yanked me off it and on the MacWorld site there was a flame reaction against me that "since Job does not see the need for tablet it is not necessary..." (sic). Yea it is sick and it is better that all you pro-mac morons divert your energy on a different thread to push developers of PC only plug-ins to port it to platform of your choice. Stop dividing people with idiotic posts which platform is superior - do something more constructive in your life. Help LW grow equally on both platforms.

stef
07-24-2003, 10:19 AM
"...LightWave parity job.."

tallscot
07-24-2003, 12:03 PM
It is time to grow up...Claiming that one platform is better than the other is absurd.

as far as Mac is concerned there is currently a huge disadvantage for its users

Yea it is sick and it is better that all you pro-mac morons

Stop dividing people with idiotic posts

do something more constructive in your life.

Anyone else find that post hilarious?

tallscot
07-24-2003, 12:27 PM
You see, stef, it is comments like "But having a huge zealous base is the reason Apple can rip off its clients with high prices and e.g. lack of tablet pc." that make Mac users tell you why they prefer their Mac.

Mac users don't have any different DNA than PC users. They are just people who are using a Mac because they prefer it over the PC. The reasons vary. For many, it's the OS. Many Mac users, and PC users for that matter, can't stand Windows. You will find anti-Windows posts all over the Net, including Linux sites. But there are many people who love Windows. Good for them.

Other people prefer the Mac because they believe there are less hassles on the Mac in various categories.

Others like Apple's software.

Others like Apple's hardware.

I own both platforms and prefer to work on my Mac instead of my PC, much like I prefer any product over another. I prefer OS X to Windows. I also have less hassles on my Mac compared to my PC. Maybe you prefer Windows and have less hassles on your PC. Fine.

It's rude of you to tell me that my decision to go with the Mac is faulty, or that I'm different or naive because I have picked the Mac. The truth is I own both, and thus my preference is based on experience with both. I don't feel the Mac is more expensive, based on comparing the two that are equipped similarly, and my next Mac, the dual G5, is cheaper than a dual Xeon that I would buy if I were going to buy a new PC instead.

I have no need for a tablet PC, so I don't have a clue why I shouldn't buy a Mac because Apple has no tablet PC.

Ed M.
07-24-2003, 01:23 PM
I was going to reply to it directly, but then I figured why waste the bandwidth...

Anyway, I remember posting something here on the forums a while ago when OS X was first released. I mentioned that OS X was EXTREMELY FERTILE GROUND for developers; something they could start utilizing for cutting-edge applications that took advantage of all the new features and technologies that it offered. IMHO, NewTek should have been doing this right from the start, maybe even before because they knew it was coming.. they ALL knew it was coming. Sure NewTek was one of the first with a port; fine. I'll give them that, but it's inexcusable at this stage of the game not to be *at least* even parity with the PC version if not further ahead with advanced features that are only Mac-specific. What would be the harm? What would be the big deal? After all, Mac users have been suffering while the PC version progressed.

There have been posts by myself, Ted Devlin (don't know if he's still around on these boards), John C. Welch, Dean Dauger, Chris Cox (Adobe) and others who feel that NewTek should have or could have Lightwave up to speed by now. What's more, the question should center on WHY the Mac version is lagging in the first place?

First there were the usual excuses associated with migrating to a new OS; the uncertainty of acceptance, the work involved in moving it over etc. Then there was the excuses related to "bugs" and "gremlins" and general "Apple flaws" within the OS. The trouble with the first two is that it's now two years later and things *still* haven't progressed and the same problems still exist and the disparity with the PC version sill remains. At this point one has to wonder why the Mac version isn't significantly *cheaper* since it really isn't the *same* app if you really look at it. And obviously, less work is going into the Mac version. Oh, I know what it was... After the OS issues were squashed developers began to "blame the hardware".

Forget that most of the codebase has been around for quite a while; forget that any significant effort has been put into optimizations for the Mac and OS X. More parallelism in their code should have been the first thing on the list. What's more, I'm hearing directly from the hardware and software people over at Apple that they've been telling the NewTek crew what needed to be done when the G4s first shipped. I won't mention any names for obvious reasons. Likewise, no one from NewTek has contacted Chris from Adobe (remember the offer?) No one has contacted Dean or John (more offers). So, the question is, if all the work is being done to simply *patch* and fix the current Mac version so it functions on OS X, where does that leave any FUTURE developments or *real* improvements? If all their time and effort is being used to cobble together something just to push out the door.... Well ... you guys know what I mean. Oh, but I forgot, it's *still* Apple's fault.. The G4's architecture just isn't advanced enough... Oh wait, the G5 is here and has completely erased any excuses developers had about the hardware not being up to snuff. Now what will the excuse be? I don't want to single out any particular developer here, After all, Quark has been the biggest disappointment.

As it stands, Apple now offers developers the most fertile and most advanced platform to date. OS X (Panther) and the G5 have erased a lot of the excuses developers used to rationalize the disparity that exists between Mac and PC apps. Apple has leapfrogged the competition. The question is which developers will actually exploit all the Mac-specific advantages of the G5+OS X? No more time for the "chicken or the egg" type arguments; Apple did *it's* part.

You see, a lot of developers will sit around and complain about the Mac's small market share (and there is a market share myth), yet these same developers aren't doing *their* part to make the Mac platform more attractive; thing they should have been doing in the first place. Oddly, they can no longer complain that Apple hasn't given them the software (OS) or the hardware (G5) to work with. The ONLY way they are going to increase the sales for a particular version is if they start offering PLATFORM SPECIFIC advantages. If they don't then they risk Apple taking matters into their own hands...

We all know that VAST improvements can be made with the Mac version of Lightwave (and SneakerNet) and other apps out there. What if Apple were to release their own 3D software to compete with Lightwave? They did it with Final Cut Pro (one example) What if they simply bought NewTek? Worse, what If Apple buys a competitor to NewTek? Why should Apple have to resort to this type of extreme measure just to show that the Mac is a viable alternative and in some ways, far superior if it's exploited to it's fullest potential? Anyway, we'll see what developers start to offer. NewTek says that the Lightwave codebase is 64bit-ready.
--
Ed

stef
07-24-2003, 01:45 PM
QUOTE:
It's rude of you to tell me that my decision to go with the Mac is faulty, or that I'm different or naive because I have picked the Mac.UNQUOTE

This is one of your big problems people. Distoring what your critics say.

Who cares what system you have?

It is a general opinion of rationally thinking people observing these 'holly wars' from a sideline fence that the zealots (on both sides) are frustrated geeks who have problems with unfullfilled sexual desires (to say it mildly and not to be vulgar) and vent their pent up aggression towards the opponents of their platform.

It is funny, but there is some truth to it...

Too much time spent drooling over computer hardware, instead of thinking of your next date with that curvaceous blonde (or brunette). No wonder there is a proliferation of spam on internet offering penis enlargement kits or viagra.

Even my superior Apple mail software program does not prevent it (after bouncing each and all of them) of getting it back (5-8 such spams every day).

Actually what counts is final output of your LW (or other) work and you cannot tell by looking at it what platform it came from. The rest is secondary because the platform is only a tool, right. Or are you married to it?

I just thought that LW artists are a bit smarter than average computer user in the U.S.A. and I personally found the pc-bashing comments of pro-mac'ers as not fit for this community (goes same for mac-bashers).

I admit I was wrong...

And finally since you are a dual user don't tell me the Mac version of LW is better than the PC one. As of now it is the other way around and that alone could be a reason for me to go PC (and perhaps of the other camp to gloat).
Unfortunately I am stuck with Mac (I have too much money invested in its software alone) and yes I am looking forward to G5 too, but again this will not make my LW software superior to that of my PC F-R-I-E-N-D-S (except perhaps faster renderer). But Intel/AMD will catch up anyhow. Will you gloat when for few months MAC will be faster? If so, you justify them gloating now so you see - this stupidity of bashing one another will never end unless you say NO to it.

Let people choose whatever platform they prefer to work on - it is their right - respect their choice even if you do not agree with it.

Demand however, and I am perhaps rude to tell you here what to do, that NT brings parity of LW between the two platforms. This is extremely important for a Mac user, so do it if you gloat to be one...

js33
07-24-2003, 01:50 PM
Hi Ed,

The bottom line is market share. For example out of 100 customers you have 95-97 with money in hand for the PC version and you have 3-5 with money in hand for the Mac version. Which one are you going to cater to first and the most?
Of course these numbers are for the greater market share at large and may not apply to LW the same way but you get the point. ;)

Maybe the G5 will change this. We will see. It's been a long time since Apple had any hardware to get excited about.:D

Maybe Apple will buy a 3D company. I hope its not Newtek because the first thing Apple would do is kill the PC version or double the price. Also what about the Video Toaster? It doesn't run on a Mac so there would go half the product base.

It's a good thing Newtek is privately owned. ;)

Cheers,
JS

iandavis
07-24-2003, 01:53 PM
ed,

very well spoken.

have you thought of the idea that the very reason apple has been (and pretty well actually) making their own software is to fill the void left by developers. Final Cut pro has found an incredible installed userbase in professional circles. Apple seems to be filling out every niche day by day. Buying up pro compositing, music and other apps in order to present a complete package.

By changing the "I can't do this with a mac" to "I need a mac because I want to use FCP" (a client of mine just dropped $15k on a mac JUST to use FCP)
I'd say Apple's strategy is working rather nicely. Still, I migrated AWAY from Lightwave on the mac due to exactly the kind of developer issues you were mentioning.

As a mac user I am actually glad apple is taking this step, well, iTunes is one reason. I have talked to several clients who own macs, but only in order to have access to iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, etc. heck, my sister in law bought a power book ONLY for iMovie and iDVD. This move to a USE oriented philosophy and away from a HARDWARE/OS based press.

:)

stef
07-24-2003, 02:13 PM
To Ed M.

Thanks for clarifying a few "mystery" points. To be fair to NT I just wanted to quote from the email I got yesterday from one of the MOST prominent LW plug-in developer:

"Sorry, I've had so much trouble with quicktime that I won't put it on my
machine any more.

There is a Mac version of divx available.... so you should be able to see
the videos from IE".

So the fault perhaps remains on both sides, even though I must admit Apple has done recently its homework. Time to keep pressure on NT...

toby
07-24-2003, 02:33 PM
I don't think you were around for the flame wars, many of us were discussing what the G5 might bring us, and several pro-PC-ers came over to the Mac forum just to push our noses into the accusation that Apples' benchmarks were completely fabricated (which turned out to be completely wrong) and claiming that the G5 is 'still' more expensive and slower. Many of us got caught up in arguments which included pointing out the PC's faults, I don't count that as gloating - if we were to go to the PC forum just to make those points, then it would be - hence the title of this thread.

tallscot
07-24-2003, 02:51 PM
This is one of your big problems people. Distoring what your critics say. Who cares what system you have?

You said, "But having a huge zealous base is the reason Apple can rip off its clients with high prices..."

With that sentence of yours you are stating that the only people who will pay more for a Mac are zealots, and you are also saying a Mac is a rip-off.

It is a general opinion of rationally thinking people observing these 'holly wars' from a sideline fence that the zealots (on both sides) are frustrated geeks who have problems with unfullfilled sexual desires (to say it mildly and not to be vulgar) and vent their pent up aggression towards the opponents of their platform.

I see, so you making posts about Mac users being ripped off isn't zealot-like behavior?

I just think it's funny that you tell people to grow up and then follow it with a post like that.

Actually what counts is final output of your LW (or other) work and you cannot tell by looking at it what platform it came from. The rest is secondary because the platform is only a tool, right. Or are you married to it?

I think the process of producing something counts too. People discuss what they like and why they like it. There's nothing wrong with it. I find it odd that it upsets you so much.

I just thought that LW artists are a bit smarter than average computer user in the U.S.A. and I personally found the pc-bashing comments of pro-mac'ers as not fit for this community (goes same for mac-bashers).

So, there are PC users who hate Macs and there are Mac users who hate PCs, and people who just prefer one over the other, and others who don't care either way.

I don't see many posts by Mac users that say things on the level of your post, like "PC users are ripped off by Microsoft", etc. I rarely see posts negative towards PC users, but you usually see negative posts about the PC or Windows. But there are all kinds of people using both platforms, and the computer you use doesn't define your personality.

What's funny is I have been seeing a lot of Windows users bashing the Mac since the G5 came out. That was kind of the point of this thread, and I would agree with the premise. I see a lot more anti-Apple comments coming from the PC crowd lately specifically because of the G5. Of course, a lot of that is fueled by Apple's claim that the G5 is the fastest personal computer, and the first 64 bit computer. But if PC users don't care which is fastest, the best, the first, why would they care what Apple claims?

And finally since you are a dual user don't tell me the Mac version of LW is better than the PC one. As of now it is the other way around and that alone could be a reason for me to go PC (and perhaps of the other camp to gloat).

Well, LW isn't the only application I use. I use a lot of applications, and I don't like Windows. Now if I were only in LW all day with no use for anything else and didn't really use the OS that much, I would want the fastest LW box I could get, I suppose. That may be the G5 in a few weeks, maybe not. But you don't care either way, right?

As for the Mac version of LW, I'm pretty close to just switching to Maya 5. Maya 5 has parity. Alias|Wavefront claims that 25% of U.S. sales of Maya are for the Mac. If Apple were to buy any company, I would think it would be Alias|Wavefront since their product is used more in the high-end film industry (my speculation) and Apple is really chasing that market with Shake and the rumored Dark Star (that's the name, right?)

But Intel/AMD will catch up anyhow. Will you gloat when for few months MAC will be faster? If so, you justify them gloating now so you see - this stupidity of bashing one another will never end unless you say NO to it.

It seems that your own posts keep gloating the fact that the Mac doesn't have parity with the Windows version of LW.

In any case, yeah, I'll gloat a lot when the G5 comes out and benchmarks show that it's faster than a dual Xeon for a lot less money. The fact that my gloating upsets you so much says as much about you as it does about me for being immature about computers.

I don't see AMD/Intel catching up. I see them getting farther behind. If the IBM 980 does come out at 3 Ghz this time next year, like Apple and IBM have claimed, that means the Xeon will have to be at 5.1 Ghz then. The roadmap I see for the Presscott has it topping out at 5 Ghz, so I don't think it will be there this time next year.

The benchmarks of the Opteron show a dual 1.8 Ghz Operton being slower than a dual Xeon, so I don't see that platform being faster than the G5.

IBM's roadmap has the IBM 990 going to 20 Ghz, supposedly. It has a lot of legs, whereas the Intel Pentium seems to be getting close to hitting a wall. Maybe not. We will see. But you don't care either way, right? :)

Ed M.
07-24-2003, 03:26 PM
Who cares what system you have?

That's one of the problems... Software is supposed to be written to take advantage of the hardware, not chip designers creating designs that run current code the fastest. That's what the x86 people love. And, as ironic as it is, it looks like x86 will be around a looooooooog time to come. I covered this already. This is bad. Software people MUST start to take advantage of a *systems* unique features. Developers have gotten lazy.

Imagine if you will Goodyear only offering tires for the Toyota Corollas and Ford Escorts of the world because those cars sold the most or because they were the most popular and had the highest market share. the fact is the Goodyear offers tires for ANY application that requires a tire. Period! They even do custom designs for specific applications. For example, they not only offer tires for the Vette, but the tires are extremely high-performance and a version was designed SPECIFICALLY for the car! Hmmmm...

Anyway, just ask any tradesman that regularly works with tools. Each has a preference. Favorite hammer, wrench, manufacturer. I regularly employ Snap-On, Milwaukee, BOSCH, SK and other high-quality tools. The same can apply here; even more so.


Actually what counts is final output of your LW (or other) work and you cannot tell by looking at it what platform it came from. The rest is secondary because the platform is only a tool, right. Or are you married to it?

People have their favorite tools (Just like favorites of anything else).


And finally since you are a dual user don't tell me the Mac version of LW is better than the PC one. As of now it is the other way around and that alone could be a reason for me to go PC (and perhaps of the other camp to gloat).

Yes, EXACTLY! You are starting to *GET IT* Why, at this stage of the game are Mac users being shortchanged? Apple has done it's part, it all up to the developers now. They'll be to blame since Apple's hardware and OS just leapfrogged the Wintelon camp. So, why should you have to switch at all? Why not add specific features in that make the Mac more attractive?


Unfortunately I am stuck with Mac (I have too much money invested in its software alone) and yes I am looking forward to G5 too, but again this will not make my LW software superior to that of my PC F-R-I-E-N-D-S (except perhaps faster renderer). But Intel/AMD will catch up anyhow.

Do you *really* believe that? Do you believe that IBM is going to rest? What will the PC guys do if Apple does start to offer EXTREME workstations a-la-racks or blade servers? What about IBM CPUs beyond 970? you're friends are probably going to be the ones in for the big surprise. Or haven't you explored my logic in this thread (12 posts down from the top) :

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1091

js33...

You can discuss marketshare with my good friend Del Miller. He's writing a series of articles examining the topic.

http://www.macopinion.com/columns/engine/03/07/16/index.html

He's a VERY sharp fellow and has been working in the aerospace industry for a very long time.

However, to touch on something you failed to mention... Would NewTek rather be selling new and complete versions of a package or simply relying on eeking-out a living providing *upgrades* to existing users? How is NewTek going to grow *their* market? ;-) Now, consider this fact... and compare that to volume. Apple is the #1 UNIX supplier in units, bar none. It's a large installed base and it was the interface leader right out of the door. So, the potential upside seems astonishing.

You see, the problem is really *reversed* if you want to examine it. NewTek is missing a great opportunity and probably loosing customers because they *can't* offer a Mac-specific version that takes advantage of platform-specific features. And better options might come along for Mac users with regard to software. So, how can a developer grow demand for their product AND the Mac platform at the same time? Well, to quote my good friend Dave K. Every:


Show me the customers that demanded a spreadsheet before Bricklin created Visicalc? Show me the customers that demanded a GUI before Apple delivered the MacOS? When you offered the solution, you find that there are 1,000 that want it, and you just didn't know about it. And that the software created opportunities and brought you into new markets, etc. But if you never take the risks, then you will never see the rewards. That's the job of software companies; to create (new) solutions to gain new markets and customers. If you stop innovating, then you are stagnant and just waiting to be obviated by someone with more a clue (more vision) than you have.

Every company that is not paranoid about their markets, and thus stops trying to innovate in order to maximize profits of the now, sells their future for the present. This short-term quarterly report thinking is what has allowed not only companies but whole industries to be eaten alive.

Some of these companies do survive. They go into innovation through acquisition mode; and can sometimes acquire fast enough to tread water or break even. (Or at least slow the inevitable descent into oblivion). Most go under, or become pathetic shadows of they once were, and shameful embarrassments compared to their potential.

Some companies are laying the foundation for their own replacement. Some don't even know it. New platforms coming up are ignored or only partly exploited ... by them, but not their competition. They are entrenched in their current market and profit taking, and so are missing out on many opportunities that their competition isn't.

Let's not learn the lessons of Novell, Lotus, DEC, Wang, DataGeneral, Packard Bell, and many others. Let's mimic them, because many of them were profitable, in the short term, right before they focused on the now (too long) and let the competition pass them by, and they disappeared.

Remember, the tools are the platform. If a company doesn't support my platform the way it should be supported (or at all), then they are not supporting me (as I would like). This means that they will either drive customers to competing products (and as you know it is 10 times harder to get someone back once they've learned something else), or they will be telling me that my concerns don't matter to them (generating bad will). Neither is good business.

"Yet another platform" that is bigger than all but Windows (but only has a *few million* seats).

Stagnant; sound familiar? NewTek's Mac version of Lightwave?

So, it's not so much marketshare as it might be platform-specific functionality, features and performance. Many dead companies can trace their downfalls to "it costs to much to risk innovation" posture.

If developers are going to ignore the #2 OS, and the #1 UNIX OS, and the fastest growing OS, then I don't believe they are being wise at all, since they are not planning for the future. Another problem is platform related.

What if a developer's initial experience was x86/DOS for the most part? Eventually they were able to use that experience to include Windows; and what if their expertise and familiarity of platform never included Macs or was subpar in that regard? It's likely that they might be driving up their own costs and then blame the tool (incompetence?). The point is that OS X (Panther) and the G5 (and beyond) offer developers a lot of room to grow. It's up to the developers now.

--
Ed

thekeeper
07-24-2003, 04:00 PM
Hey Ed, did you actually ever buy a mac, or a copy of LightWave, or are
you still flag wavin,perpetuating ridiculous threads like this and beating up software you dont even use, from that old pc?
some things never change;)

js33
07-24-2003, 04:51 PM
Yeah Ed I'm still curious also why you even care about Lightwave or the Mac when you don't even use them.;)

Cheers,
JS

Ed M.
07-24-2003, 05:28 PM
Well, guys, I'll let ya in on a little secret... I own 2 Macs, a working Comcrap PC and a dead Gateway PC that someone asked me to fix, but then I talked them into a new dual G4 system. He didn't want the Gateway back.

I grabbed someone else's iMac (Graphite Special Edition) from them for cheap because they got a good deal on a dual G4 tower... They should have ordered a G5 though IMO. The other Mac *was* my sister's -- a Graphite iBook SE/DVD that I got her as a birthday gift when it first hit store shelves. I'm buying her a new Powerbook when the new models come out. Another birthday gift. My dad will use the iMac for online.. checking stocks and such. What's your point? And No, I don't own a copy of Lightwave, so? Does my argument hold less water somehow? Get real... I do more on the iBook than I've ever done on my PC (no joking). And you'd be surprised what I use it for. Anyway, as far as Lightwave is concerned, I get a lot of info from a close friend that uses it regularly. He's also heavy into audio. But that's all besides the point isn't it? So, let's CTS with the Ad hominem attacks, it grows old really quick.

Read the information for what it is... It's that simple. If you can point out any flaws in what I've said or the quotes from people I've mentioned, please do so. Otherwise, feel free to agree with what I posted and move quietly along ;)


--
Ed

tallscot
07-24-2003, 05:42 PM
That's how it usually goes, isn't it? If someone can't refute what you've said, they call you a ninny. Knowing this, I find personal insults gratifying. :)

js33
07-24-2003, 07:13 PM
Ed,

I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't attacking you.;)

I did and still find it odd though that you preach about what needs fixing in Lightwave because you have a friend that uses it?
Also if you love Macs so much why don't you buy a G5 and support Apple instead of getting used hand-me-down computers from friends. It's almost like you can't afford to buy your own real computer and have nothing better to do than to point out flaws in software you don't own or use.

So is this just a hobby or do you have some real purpose for posting here?

Cheers,
JS

gggraphx
07-24-2003, 07:41 PM
It's good to see passion on the boards.
I'd worry about 3D in general if the people using LW didn't have pretty strong feelings about nuclear conflict. Opps I mean PC vs Mac.
Everyone has the right to be dead wrong about some things.

munky
07-25-2003, 06:25 AM
It's life Jim but not as we know it...

Jimzip
07-25-2003, 07:22 AM
Well. It seems now that we've all got out of us what we all had pent up for a while. Possibly some people here have been waiting for the oppotrunity to really become vocal about their beliefs for months on end..
Now you have.
What a lovely thread.








Beam, thanks for the memories, let's get back to making models and animations, because really, if we spent as much time modeling and animating as we did on this site flaming each other, we'd all be working for Pixar or ILM under the new 'Lightwave' section.





Jimzip. :D


Finished.. Ok?

stef
07-25-2003, 09:52 AM
First of all this site is owned by NT and anybody has the right to visit any publicly open threads. Why be so antagonistic towards windows users for merely dropping by? They can visit whatever thread they wish. So the title of this thread surprised me to start with. We may want perhaps to show them instead courtesy and kindness. Then this may start them think Mac users are in fact different, and perhaps the platform we are so proud of is worth further investigating. The "wars" will not achieve that...
Let's keep these posts/threads clean and professional by staying out of pc bashing. Please.
I am trying to convince NT that prompt addressing by them the lack of parity of LW on windows and mac platform is an important issue (am not gloating about it - simply trying to draw their attention to this disturbing fact). If they don't fix it poeople will start migrating, as someone stated above about switching to Maya for Mac.
What good does it do to me if LW8 becomes a better product, if that is so on a PC computer and I cannot do half of things on my Mac LW that my friends can do on their Dell?
That's where we should expense our collective energy IMHO. We can ask dual users to pinpoint exactly where we are lagging on the Mac platform that we like so much and prefer over other OS and don't want to drop it (so either LW adjusts to it or we will have to go to another mac-centric and mac-friendly 3D solution). When I try to download or buy some plug-ins "Intel only" sign is the norm.
Regards to all....

tallscot
07-25-2003, 11:22 AM
stef,

There have been many threads with constructive direction by dual users on what the Mac version is missing. Maybe you don't read those threads?

Maya shows that it's not Apple's fault. Maya wasn't on the Mac three years ago, and now 20% of the world Maya users are on the Mac, 25% in the U.S. So that shows there are enough Macs being used to justify investing in the Mac version. And I'll point out that the first Mac version did not have parity with the other platforms, but does now after only two years (going my memory on the two years). So Alias|Wavefront gave us total parity in two years, what's NT's excuse?

When I try to download or buy some plug-ins "Intel only" sign is the norm.

Another reason to get Maya - Maya plug-ins are platform agnostic, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

stef
07-25-2003, 12:33 PM
Tallscot, Maya is another $2000 vs. $495 for the new upgrade. Plus months spent to learn it, plus interface that people do not want to spend time in, etc., etc. People love LW and first will demand requested changes. If NT does not listen then ppl will vote with their legs. Judging from Early Interface thread NT not only is listening, but encouraging its users to give input, therefore I trust they are serious. I have decided to give them time since believe they can bring us the best 3d solution. They have some of the best programers on the planet. I do not expect miracles from LW8 though, as they have been unable to recuperate time wasted on internal schism...

tallscot
07-25-2003, 12:47 PM
Agreed, stef, though I don't know that I don't want to use the Maya UI because I haven't really started learning it yet.

Maya 5 is $2,000 period, right? What's this business about the upgrade? And LW 7 is going on eBay for around $450, so subtract that.

If you are very experienced in 3D, I don't think it would be too hard to switch to another application, but I'm just speculating.

I'm a novice when it comes LW as it is, so for me it's not that big of a deal because I have so much more to learn in LW already. That's why I'm more inclined to jump ship, I guess, because I don't want to invest even more time into LW and then be very frustrated that it doesn't do what I want it to, or that the Mac version is treated differently, etc.

I already got burned with my first 3D application, Carrara 2, which sucks - not because it's a weak 3D application compared to LW, but because the Mac support is weak. The Mac version has bugs that the PC version doesn't (OpenGL doesn't even work in the OS X version) and Eovia doesn't seem to care.

It does seem that Alias|Wavefront is taking the Mac much more seriously. And if the Maya plug-ins are agnostic, that would be a nice aspect of being in that application.

Broadening your toolset is never a bad idea, if you have the time. With the current economy, I have plenty of time. :) :(

Karl Hansson
07-25-2003, 01:17 PM
Al though Maya has some neat features Maya also have its share of problems too. It also has some problems to with the radeon cards. Maya is far from rocksolid stable and as a Maya on mac user you are restricted to a very limited set of overpriced plugins.

toby
07-25-2003, 01:37 PM
Read my post again before you accuse us of PC bashing AGAIN - since you don't accuse them of Mac bashing, (in fact you assume they were "kind and courteous") you either didn't see the arguments or have a slanted view of them, leaning towards PC. A little more objectivity, please.

"many of us were discussing what the G5 might bring us, and several pro-PC-ers came over to the Mac forum just to push our noses into the accusation that Apples' benchmarks were completely fabricated (which turned out to be completely wrong) and claiming that the G5 is 'still' more expensive and slower. Many of us got caught up in arguments which included pointing out the PC's faults"

eblu
07-25-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by tallscot
and now 20% of the world Maya users are on the Mac, 25% in the U.S.

tallscot:
its not a big deal but this assertion is flat out wrong.
What alias said was that it sales are now 25% Macintosh. that is a far cry from 25% of the market.
Alias may be selling mac Maya like hot cakes, but its gonna take a long time for mac maya to make up 25% of the market. Maya PC and Maya Unix have had years of lead time on mac Maya, and have reached a point of "market saturation". This saturation actually lessens the demand for the other platform versions of maya, and increases the percentage of the mac sales. the funny thing is that The numbers Alias released are basically meaningless... they could have sold 4 copies of Maya in that time period, and gotten the same results.
in short: its marketing BS.
Don't get me wrong, theres lots to admire in the other camp, I just hate to see evil marketing geniuses pull a fast one.

The same misunderstanding happens in reverse with Apple's marketshare. 2.5 % of the marketshare is not 2.5% of the market. that 2.5% is a bad number it, needs to get higher, its is bleeding away at the Mac subgroup of PC users, but the segment of the population using macs is probably still around 10% (simply a guess, not based on facts, the point is that its that its different and significantly higher).

toby
07-25-2003, 02:02 PM
I think a 25% sales figure is enough for tallscot to make his point tho, :

"that shows there are enough Macs being used to justify investing in the Mac version"

eblu
07-25-2003, 03:05 PM
mos def

tallscot
07-25-2003, 05:32 PM
OK, I don't think I said the Mac is 25% of the world 3D market. I said Alias|Wavefront claimed that 25% of their Maya applications sold were Mac versions, in the U.S.

That's what I meant. Is that wrong?

And my point was that Alias|Wavefront is up-front and excited about the success they have had with the Mac version. They brought parity to it.

Can anyone confirm about the plug-ins issue? I can't find a single "Mac" Maya plug-in. In fact, when I search google, I just find "Maya plug-ins" that make no distinction about platform. I had been told by "someone in the know" that Maya plug-ins are platform agnostic. Anyone know for sure?

Thanks

wacom
07-25-2003, 07:07 PM
I'm sooooooo sick of people claiming that if NT doesn't do something soon they're going to jump ship to Maya. If you have helpful and detailed instances that's one thing, but if you came here to cry wolf for another program please do us all a favor and go get it. Please- if I had the money I'd buy it just to shut you up. So please go get XSI and Maya and what ever else you need, but stop the boo hoo complaint train and get to work!

tallscot
07-25-2003, 07:18 PM
Yeah, and I'm sick of people complaining about the Mac version of Lightwave. If you don't like the Mac version of Lightwave, go get the PC version and shut up. Right?

Please, don't overreact. Maybe you didn't read the whole thread.

wacom
07-26-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by tallscot
Yeah, and I'm sick of people complaining about the Mac version of Lightwave. If you don't like the Mac version of Lightwave, go get the PC version and shut up. Right?

Please, don't overreact. Maybe you didn't read the whole thread.

I'm not saying for anyone to get any kind of hardware or software, I just think that making sweeping statements like "Lightwave needs to be as good as Maya" and leaving it at that doesn't help. If people would give more specified info on what they want changed, or what is great in another program that LW should have AND do better- that is diffrent. The plugin problem needs to be addressed, but I think instead of saying "Maya is better because the plugins work on all systems..." it would be better to state which plugins are needed first. Which plugins would you want for newtek to cross-over first? LW 8 may address this problem as well- lets hope. The feature request area of the board works well for new ideas and or changes that NT should address and I wish people would use it more instead of letting threads turn into a Product X vs. Product Y flame.

So my only real plea is that the people who want to use Maya for certain features but are going to stick to LW get down to the point when finding faults with LW.

For instance I could say "Lightwave isn't as good as XSI because of normal mapping."

OR

I could say that "The ability to generate normal maps and embed them in files in Lightwave would greatly help. If Lightwave could also use normal maps with proxy objects that would be even better. It would also be helpful if we could view normal maps on objects in the Camera view port with video cards that support this feature etc."

The first example illustrates almost nothing whisle the second illustrates the problem, the solution, and the ability for LW to have added features. One is just a complaint whisle the other is a CONSTRUCTIVE complaint. This is the same reason that CIM or was kicked off- his posts were just sweeping statements with nothing helpful behind them.

If people aren't willing to get down to brass tacks with the problems they see in LW I don't think they should rattle off posts so easily...that's all.

Ed M.
07-26-2003, 02:52 PM
LW 8 may address this problem as well- lets hope.

If not LW 8 then perhaps 9, 10, 11.. maybe even 20. You get the picture. Just kinda reminds me of the "frog in pot of water on the stove" scenario.

Just ask yourself... How long has it been since the Mac version offered parity with it's Windows counterpart? Better yet, when was the last time a version of LW EXCEEDED the Windows version with respect to features and performance? Should this be reflected in the PRICE of the product? Now that that's cleared up...

It's obvious users are starting to notice the differences. What's more, since many of them are loyal to LW and not so much the *platform*, it really doesn't make one bit of difference to NT which version they sell as long as they sell a version or in most cases an *upgrade*. As a matter of fact, I'm guessing that the mentality might be that supporting only a single version would be much more cost-effective and profitable, but then there were my posts a few pages back explaining the dilemma of stagnation. I think what users are saying is at this stage of the game there should be NO disparity at all. With the G5 and Panther the roles should now be reversed if anything.


The feature request area of the board works well for new ideas and or changes that NT should address and I wish people would use it more instead of letting threads turn into a Product X vs. Product Y flame.

Just like all the pleas for a completely new approach to SneakerNet that Mac users have been requesting for quite some time?

There have been several, long and informative discussions and NT seems unwilling to budge. Same for some key areas of Mac optimizations that Chris Cox offered to help with. I guess that doesn't count? Hey, what do I know? I don't own a copy of LW, but then again I never owned a Ford Pinto either or a set of Firestone tires ... or.....

Well, F*&@ it.... The point is that you needn't be an *expert* to point out the obvious flaws that plague something; just as you needn't be an engineer, auto mechanic or polymer scientist to identify and acknowledge flaws in the latter examples. The point is that some things aren't obscure, indiscernible or subjective. In the case with the Mac version and PC version, most are right up front, glaring and completely obvious to everyone.

--
Ed

panini
07-27-2003, 05:06 PM
NewTek didn't do any of these wonderfull things which OSX offers because OSX really doesn't offer anything new. That is all lies and marketing by Steve Jobs.

Maya on a Mac isn't the same program it is on the PC either. Not even close.

OSX is just another OS and that is all. All you need to do is listen to Apple people talk. Every version of their OS was supposedly so superior, then once a new one pops up , they list all of the faults of the previous version and how so much better and improved the newer one is. Then you really see how bad the previous OS was.

Same with hardware ( G4 ).

All the way up to G5 release Apple insisted that Macs were faster than PCs. Then whan they annonunced G5 they said: "we finally not only cought up, but surpassed PC"

Right there is admission that even they knew all along how much slower G4s were and that they simply lied. Because you can't tell me one day how you G4 is faster than any PC, and the next day you finally COUGHT UP with PC because G5 is here.

Lies, lies , lies. Apple didn't do its part. NewTek does what it's supposed to. Put out superior code for a superior platform. The other side made a choice and has to live with it.

toby
07-27-2003, 05:22 PM
See what I mean?

This is not a Mac person, but he's on the Mac forum just to bash Mac.

panini
07-27-2003, 08:31 PM
I came here because of G5 announcements. I was interested and did some research.

I ended up buying 64bit AMD workstation a couple of weeks ago and show up here occasionally to see where this discussion went.

Also I'm not bashing, just reporting facts. Bashing implies lying, that is what Steve Jobs does.

You should also do more research.
For example Intel 64 Itanium is available and runs 64 bit Windows XP. You can buy them from HP.

http://www.hp-tcsc.com/promotions/zxpromo/

Now, excuse me, but wasn't Apple supposed to be the first one?

Where is 64bit G5 and 64bit OSX?

You can see all these 64 bit PCs running 64 bit Operating systems at Siggraph next week and you can buy them.

So if Apple is the first where is their 64 bit OSX and G5?

By the way Itanium running 64bit stuff even at only 900mhz kicks *****, faster than G5 or even Opteron in many cases.

Karl Hansson
07-27-2003, 11:10 PM
Please stop!!!

Rey
07-28-2003, 01:12 AM
I know at times it can be tempting but PLEASE do not feed the trolls.

Ed M.
07-28-2003, 03:52 AM
That guy is a F%^&ing moron if he thinks that the "64-bit" AMD system is really 64-bit. Funnier still, he thinks Itanic is the way to go. Sad Sad Sad. The AMD system is only 32-bit because it's running a 32-bit OS. Plain and simple. If he'd bother to read ANY of my other posts, he'd know just how silly he sounds. Let's try and ignore this troll. He can't help what he is.

--
Ed

pauland
07-28-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by Ed M.
That guy is a ...
I suggest you read the terms and conditions when using the discussion board. I don't come here to see people flame each other or issue profanities.

Paul

Darth Mole
07-28-2003, 05:44 AM
Woah! Check out those Itanium prices!

hp workstation zx6000 - A9651BF
(dual 900MHz)

• Dual 900MHz Intel Itanium 2, 1.5MB cache
• Red Hat Linux Advanced Workstation
• 512MB PC2100 DDR SDRAM memory
• 36GB 10K RPM Ultra_320 SCSI HotPlug disk
• DVD-ROM Drive, 8X Max, Slimline
• NVIDIA Quadro2 EX
• 1 AGP-4X slot, dedicated
• 3 64-bit 66MHz @ 512MB/sec, each dedicated
• 10/100/1000BT LAN
• 10/100BT LAN
• external Ultra 160 SCSI port
• 1 year, next day, on site warranty

Manufacturer's Suggested Promotional* Price—$7,390

What an absolute bargain. I can't believe I was stupid enough to order a dual 2GHz G5 for $3,000. What a dumbass...

*Man, I wouldn't want to see their non-promotional price :-)

Red_Oddity
07-28-2003, 06:16 AM
First of all, this whole thread is getting on my nerves...

All you people could have easily avoided this whole bullsh!t by just posting your resources, not 'a friend told me', 'i heard somewhere', etc...

As for 64 on PC, it exists people, fact...here's some resources:

Linux:
http://www.sgi.com/servers/altix/64bit_linux.html
http://www.redhat.com/software/itanium/index.html#aw
http://www.suse.de/us/company/press/press_releases/archive03/sles_amd64.html
http://www.x86-64.org

Windows:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/overview.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/default.mspx

Unix:
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/aix/os/index.html
http://h30097.www3.hp.com/products.html

Irix:
http://www.sgi.com/software/irix6.5/


As for 64bit processors on 32bit operating systems, yes, those too are there...among them is the G5...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=6515
http://www.itweek.co.uk/Analysis/1132017


Now, can we finally leave this waste of bandwidth rest...please....

More to read:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8827
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/win64/win64/getting_ready_for_64_bit_windows.asp

and should you still be in doubt...do a [email protected] Google search, instead of spouting crap on this forum...

tallscot
07-28-2003, 10:25 AM
And once again:

Dual Opteron is slower than dual Xeon (http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030422/opteron-23.html#3drendering)

OS X 10.2.7 and 10.3 are hybrid operating systems utilizing 64 bit addressing and data paths (http://theregister.com/content/39/31600.html)

Apple's definition of a 64 bit personal computer is a computer that runs consumer applications. By that definition, an Itanium-based workstation is not a personal computer. The Opteron-based workstation, like the BOXX, with a 4 gig limit because of its regular Windows XP is not 64 bit.

The G5 is the only computer I see that allows me to use consumer applications, like MS Office and Quake III, and gives me 64 bit addressing and data paths. That's based on my definition of "personal computer". Correct me if you disagree.

mlinde
07-28-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by tallscot
Can anyone confirm about the plug-ins issue? I can't find a single "Mac" Maya plug-in. In fact, when I search google, I just find "Maya plug-ins" that make no distinction about platform. I had been told by "someone in the know" that Maya plug-ins are platform agnostic.

I would hazard a guess that plug-ins would be platform-agnostic as long as they don't utilize custom code that is platform specific, or if they are written tightly within the plug-in SDK. In many cases, development can be platform agnostic (and would be if the developers knew a little more about Mac development rules).

If all a Maya developer has to do is recompile for MacOS, that's great. For many lightwave plug-ins, that's all that has to happen. For others, they need to rewrite code that is platform specific, or they need to be completely re-written because they are not written within the scope of the Lightwave Plug-in SDK.

In addition, much of Lightwave's platform agnostic development is incomplete even within the mother ship. This relates back to the plug-in design again. Since 90% of Lightwave features are plugins, these plugins need to be coded (or recoded) to be platform agnostic using the SDK rules, and that takes time (and money), so it doesn't happen. Then, somebody tries to move a Mac file to WIndows, or a Windows file to Mac, and it's a chore.

Update: tallscot, I did some googling on Maya Plugins as well. I hit 5 of the first 10 links listed, and often the Plugins say "Maya 3,4 NT" in otherwords for Maya on Windows NT, which would be a Windows only plugins, in my understanding.

mlinde
07-28-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by panini
You should also do more research.
For example Intel 64 Itanium is available and runs 64 bit Windows XP. You can buy them from HP.

http://www.hp-tcsc.com/promotions/zxpromo/



Panini, I'm not looking for a flame war, just facts. You make some statements, and some inferences. What sources do you have with a 900 MHz itanium smoking all these other processors? Where can I actually order a machine running this 64-Bit Windows XP now?

Your note on the HP workstation is interesting, but the facts according to The Register (see URL below about 64-BIT OSs) is that this 64-Bit Windows is due in 2004. In addition, the workstations listed at HP (using your URL) ship with Linux, not 64-Bit Windows. A buyer probably (I didn't go through the whole process) can order Windows to be shipped when it is available (in 2004) when ordering a workstation, that's my guess.

"Initially, Windows users will be stuck with the 32-bit version of the OS, which the Athlon 64 also supports but which doesn't deliver any of the new chip's 64-bit benefits. More technically adept Athlon 64 users will presumably be able to run 64-bit Linux in the run up to the Microsoft release. However, many developers are waiting for 64-bit Windows XP to arrive before shipping 64-bit apps of their own - that isn't expected until early 2004, according to internal AMD roadmaps. ฎ"

and the full article (hits against all the OSs):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31995.html

paintboy
07-28-2003, 11:05 AM
.
Then, somebody tries to move a Mac file to WIndows, or a Windows file to Mac, and it's a chore.

I had never fully realized how problematic this is, i have been freelancing as a texture artist for an animation house for the last couple of months, they are all pc, i am all mac..."it aint purdy" as they say here in the south...cross platform my ***? anything but(unless you consider bbedit part of your workflo? in fact its gonna make a "reverse switcher" out of me, gonna order a new
winderz box this week....working with LW on the mac is just to damn hard.
i love my macs, but i like staying employed as well.sad but true.

stef
07-28-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by toby
See what I mean?

This is not a Mac person, but he's on the Mac forum just to bash Mac.

Panini can be on any forum he wants to. Your response is typical of the "pc or mac-communists" (the zealots on both platforms) that would love to curtail someones freedom to roam internet (or NT forum for that matter). They buy uncritically any propaganda that big computer manufacturers (on all sides of the fence) are feeding consumers with to push their product. Do you remember aggressive ads of Apple when PPC appeared (Intel was a turtle and Apple chip was a rabbit). It is amazing that pc/intel side did not take their revange when Apple was only dreaming of a 1 Gz barrier (being screwed big time by Moto). Apple did not learn from that lesson and continues to be blatantly aggressive (personal computer nowadays is in the sub 1K range, and besides you do not need G5 in your example to use on MS WORD). Guess their market share is small (I do not write "pitiful" so you can digest in peace what I am telling you) hence this desperate call to draw attention to their offering. Pannini simply states what his opinion on Apple marketing is. Do you own Apple shares being so indignant with his opinion or do you work for Apple to defend it so ferociosly? Are you brainwashed by Apples' marketing dept so you cannot accept any criticism of this sacred cow call Mac? Perhaps there is [some] truth to what he is saying and this bothers you. Instead of being inflamed with rage, please read carefully what he says and try to inform me cooly if he is wrong.

tallscot
07-28-2003, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the info, mlinde.

I made a post on Alias's (they changed their name to Alias) OS X forum and asked them if they are happy.

I got two responses that said OS X Maya is exactly the same as Maya on Windows. They specifically said it's just as stable as the other platforms and that there aren't any issues at all, except for the ATI bug.

They also said that plug-ins are not platform agnostic.

Version 5 of the learning edition is available.

Thanks again for the info.

Lightwolf
07-28-2003, 11:10 AM
mlinde:
The Itanium is a whole new processor architecture, and by default not intel x86 compatible. So the 64 bit Windows for Itanium is also a different beast than 64bit Opteron Windows.
If you have a look at www.spec.org you can have a look at the performance of it. Again, it will need a highly optimized compiler.
A dual Itanium2 900 runs at 29.3 spec_fp rate.
(dual Opteron 1.8: 24.9, dual Xeon 3.06:19.9).
However, you can get the Itanium at up to 1.5 GHz, which gives it a spec fp_rate of 42.6.
An IBM Dual Power4+ with 1.45 GHz is runs at 19.9 spec fp_rat.
However, the Itanium is not intended as a workstation CPU, and has been designed with hp for big iron servers... thus the high prices, we're talking multi-processing with 4, 8, 16 or more processors here, more the league of the Power4+, Xeon MP(!) or the Opteron.
If I remember correctly though, 2 or 3 years ago NT had Modeler running on an Itanium system...
Cheers,
Mike

Red_Oddity
07-28-2003, 11:13 AM
The G5 is the only computer I see that allows me to use consumer applications, like MS Office and Quake III, and gives me 64 bit addressing and data paths. That's based on my definition of "personal computer". Correct me if you disagree.

Hmmm...that leaves me thinking, Tallscott, doesn't a program have to be rewritten/recompiled to be fully 64bit?
I don't think something like Quake 3 will all of a sudden break the 4Gig memory limit...

And people are not really fast on recompiling/fixing games/programs...heck most publishers don't even do a OSX update (UT anyone?...and don't mention that buggy unofficial beta...)


Another thing, who ever came up with using the Itaniums for a workstation/home use...That makes as much sense as buying an Onyx or Fuel for texteditting...

Red_Oddity
07-28-2003, 11:15 AM
The OS-X Maya, is that the (not so) Complete version, or Unlimited?

Just wondering...(if it is Complete, you'll have to do without Mental Ray, and other features that make Maya really usefull)

tallscot
07-28-2003, 11:21 AM
If you have a look at www.spec.org you can have a look at the performance of it.

Ugh, not SPEC numbers. :)

Your SPEC numbers show the Opteron is faster than the Xeon, yet the Tom's Hardware benchmark has the dual Xeon beating the Opteron in everything except SETI.

So shouldn't we all look at how the applications we actually use run on the systems we are talking about, OK?

Hmmm...that leaves me thinking, Tallscott, doesn't a program have to be rewritten/recompiled to be fully 64bit?
I don't think something like Quake 3 will all of a sudden break the 4Gig memory limit...

No, a recompile is not needed with OS X and the G5. For example. Adobe is only issuing a plug-in for Photoshop for it to take advantage of 64 bit addressing.

The applications need to be "optimized" for the G5, but not recompiled. That's exactly why you don't want a 64 bit native OS, so you can migrate to 64 bit but still use your legacy applications.

All I see on the X86 platform is either native 64 bit, which means you can't run legacy software natively, or 32 bit with no benefits from a 64 bit processor. Correct me if I'm wrong.

tallscot
07-28-2003, 11:23 AM
ou'll have to do without Mental Ray, and other features that make Maya really usefull)

That's not the case.

Maya 5 Complete OS X has full parity with the other platforms.

Maya 5 comes with Mental Ray integrated with the application. It's just one of the renderers now to choose from, including the new vector renderer.

mbaldwin
07-28-2003, 11:25 AM
I own Maya for macOSX. Mental Ray is included.

Lightwolf
07-28-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by tallscot
If you have a look at www.spec.org you can have a look at the performance of it.

Ugh, not SPEC numbers. :)

Your SPEC numbers show the Opteron is faster than the Xeon, yet the Tom's Hardware benchmark has the dual Xeon beating the Opteron in everything except SETI.

So shouldn't we all look at how the applications we actually use run on the systems we are talking about, OK?
I was actually replying to mlinde:

What sources do you have with a 900 MHz itanium smoking all these other processors? Where can I actually order a machine running this 64-Bit Windows XP now?
As for the Opteron, I've pretty much stated my arguments, and the links provided persued me to stay away from this matter until the G5 has been properly benched. And I've also said a couple of times that it is not suprising, looking at Tom's numbers, since expecially the 3D apps in those releases are heavily SSE2 optimized... So, P4 with SSE2 optimizations or not? These data don't have any relevance compared to the figures for the G5, that's true though...


All I see on the X86 platform is either native 64 bit, which means you can't run legacy software natively, or 32 bit with no benefits from a 64 bit processor. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I hope you don't mind if I correct you :)
The OS has to run in 64 bit mode for the programs to be able to run in 64bit mode as well. However, 32bit programs can run natively within the 64bit OS without any penalties, X86-64 linux even shows that (due to the faster 64bit OS) even 32 bit apps have a performance gain.
The disadvantage is the fact that drivers have to be re-compiled for the 64bit OS. This is x86-64, not to be confused with 64bit on Itaniums, which is a whole different matter.
Cheers,
Mike

mbaldwin
07-28-2003, 11:32 AM
Red_oddity and everyone else, for that matter.

rather than throw another incorrect log on this spiteful flame, ask what value any of this 'discussion' serves.

going back to my life now(and hoping someone will shut this thread down...)

tallscot
07-28-2003, 11:47 AM
However, 32bit programs can run natively within the 64bit OS without any penalties

So when a 64 bit Windows XP ships for Opteron/Clawhammer, I'll be able to run all my Windows applications on it?

Lightwolf
07-28-2003, 11:49 AM
tallscott:
Yup, except for very low level stuff like drivers.
This is how the x86-64 Linux works right now.
On an Itanium BTW the OS uses a processor supported software x86 emulation layer.
Cheers,
Mike

tallscot
07-28-2003, 12:09 PM
Thanks for the info.

I knew about the emulation on the Itanium. It's too slow right now to use it as a workstation, from the benchmarks I've seen.

Ed M.
07-28-2003, 01:13 PM
How many of you *really* think Microsoft is going to ship a 64bit version of DESKTOP Windows for consumer AND Workstation use? Think about it. The ONLY player that is NOT in the 64bit desktop market is Intel. Besides, the Opteron is NOT a desktop chip. AMD is planning something else for the 64bit desktop space and there is NO OS ready for it yet. I've mentioned ALL of this in previous posts. All of this just causes more and more forks with Windows and nightmares for developers and users. PLEASE, READ MY OTHER POST WITH ASSOCIATED LINKS!

Do you honestly believe that Microsoft is going to stab Intel in the back by allowing AMD to gain a foothold in the 64bit consumer desktop market? I highly doubt it. AND just look at how much trouble AMD had bringing 64bit to market in the first place. Microsoft isn't going to let Intel hang high-and-dry.

OK, so no one chooses to reason things out and everyone believes that Microsoft will deliver on AMD-64 for the desktop. Just dandy. Now you'll be stuck with x86 for at least another 10 years. If Intel decides to join the game later on, They'll have to deep-six Itanium (the processor that they're hell-bent on making succeed) and move to x86-64 which will be incompatible with AMDs implementation causing YET ANOTHER VERSION OF WINDOWS.... But I mentioned all of this in previous threads. Tallscott and a few others obviously read them. I posted my references to back up my claims in those earlier posts as well. The sad fact is that the PC realm doesn't seem to have any definite direction. It's like one huge mishmash. And LINUX is NOT an option for serious productivity. Where are all the commercial apps? That was a whole other topic I covered here a while ago as well. Point: So AMD-64 gets to run LINUX... Big deal. Not like you'll be running Photoshop, Quark, Word, Lightwave, FCP, DVDSP, AE or any other commercial app and you wont be able to buy these machines from anywhere other than specialty shops or online. You'll see 64bit Windows for the desktop when INTEL want's you to have it, not any sooner. Microsoft isn't going to burn their best partner. Don't be surprised if things don't pan out the way you hope or expect.

--
Ed

tallscot
07-28-2003, 01:31 PM
Well, Ed, it does look like there will be an AMD 64 bit Windows:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/apr03/04-09athlonopteronpr.asp

Beta in "mid 2003". Anyone see it yet?

mlinde
07-28-2003, 03:34 PM
Well, at the risk out burning outwith this thread, I think we've come up with a bunch of information, that I'm going to try and summarize:

1) There are no real-world evaluations of the Itanium 64, Opteron 64, or G5, since there are no real-world applications and OSs running on these systems as of this date (I'm not talking about 32/64-bit emulation, either).

2) In raw performance, the Itanium is a potent processor, the Opteron slightly less so, and the G5 is...questionable, based on the various benchmarking issues.

3) In the real world, the Itanium (like its predecessor the Xeon) is designed for servers, not workstations. This is not true of the Opteron or the G5. Thus, Itanium-based computers are cost-prohibitive.

4) Mac OS 10.3 will have some functions that are 64-bit addressing enabled, but the OS itself is not going to be a full 64-bit OS at it's release this fall.

5) Windows XP-64 is due for release in 2004.

6) People here are very passionate about proving each other wrong, or about proving themselves right.

7) Everybody in this thread (including myself) needs to spend more time away from the computer, or at least away from this forum.

bye now!

tallscot
07-28-2003, 05:00 PM
Mac OS 10.3 will have some functions that are 64-bit addressing enabled, but the OS itself is not going to be a full 64-bit OS at it's release this fall.

Curious, what benefit would OS X get if it were "full 64 bit"?

mlinde
07-28-2003, 08:09 PM
If I understand it correctly (and I probably don't) the 64-bit pathway allows more simultaneous processes to occur, so if the OS were fully 64-bit, all OS-level processes would utilize almost twice the pathways, and should (theoretically) operate significantly faster.

Lightwolf
07-29-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by tallscot
Well, Ed, it does look like there will be an AMD 64 bit Windows:
...
Beta in "mid 2003". Anyone see it yet?
Well, I've seen reviews of single proc Opteron/Athlon64 boards with a beta of Windows XP 64 (again, the c't magazine, latest issue). It's out there and in beta, just as W2K3 64.
BTW, intel does have the rights to use the x86-64 extensions as well (they basically traded with AMD for SSE2), so if AMD takes off, intel can easily follow.
The Itanium isn't intended for the same market, so both intel and M$ will be targeting other users with that processor / OS combo.

Red_Oddity
07-29-2003, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by mbaldwin
I own Maya for macOSX. Mental Ray is included.

Woopsiedaisy...my bad...found it on the Alias site...

That is good news...

riki
07-29-2003, 04:29 AM
I haven't seen Beamtracer around much lately?? Where are ya Beam at Siggy :) or another statistic ??

Ade
07-29-2003, 04:33 AM
I hear 3DS /autodesk are annoucing they bought out Mental Ray at Sig?

Lightwolf
07-29-2003, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Ade
I hear 3DS /autodesk are annoucing they bought out Mental Ray at Sig?
AFAIK they only integrate mental ray into Max 6, so now the major three (softimage, Alias, discreet) all rely on mental ray as their main rendering engine.

tallscot
07-29-2003, 10:30 AM
Blessed are the cheese makers?

Lightwolf
07-29-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by tallscot
Blessed are the cheese makers?
Huh :confused:

tallscot
07-29-2003, 10:46 AM
Monty Python, "Life of Brian".

Lightwolf
07-29-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by tallscot
Monty Python, "Life of Brian".
Ah, o.k., gotcha.
Actually, this one is from james (the band).
Cheers,
Mike

davemj
07-29-2003, 01:59 PM
*** Deleted because the author decided he was speaking bollocks *****

David

Lightwolf
07-30-2003, 02:09 AM
lol :D