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Elmar Moelzer
03-11-2008, 08:49 AM
Ok, here are a few questions, before we finally go an buy a license of Speed Edit.
Among other things, we want to use Speed Edit for editing Screen Capture videos that we are doing to present our software. Now for speed- and size- (of the final video that will be put online) reasons we usually capture these in 12 FPS, or even 10 FPS. Now, of course I want to edit those videos at this Frame Rate as well. I do not want the editor to rescale them to 25 FPS, 50 Fields per second, or 30 FPS, or 60 Fields a second, or something.
How well would Speed Edit handle this? E.g. is there a setting somewhere that allows me to freely set the projects FPS?
Secondly, these videos will be at about 1024x768 resolution, or maybe even at a resolution of 1028x750, or something, depending on how large I scaled up the window of the app prior to capturing.
How well does Speed Edit deal with these resolutions? Is there any upscaling, or downscaling (to e.g. HD spec resolutions) happening? This would be bad, as this of course degrades the quality of the video, which can make text- buttons unreadable, etc.
These are all things that we ran into when trying to use our VT3 for this. So it would be good to know if SpeedEdit has the same or simillar "problems".
3rd: How well does SpeedEdit handle 3rd party codecs, e.g. codecs used by Screen Capture software?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 09:01 AM
How well would Speed Edit handle this? E.g. is there a setting somewhere that allows me to freely set the projects FPS?
Yes.


How well does Speed Edit deal with these resolutions?
Fine, projects can be any resolution and frame rate.
I'm actually editing a screen capture tutorial at the moment, at the same resolution.


3rd: How well does SpeedEdit handle 3rd party codecs, e.g. codecs used by Screen Capture software?

Camtasia/Techsmith works, as does YUVHuf, which I like to use as well.

AVI based codecs are fine.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
03-11-2008, 09:08 AM
cool, sounds all good then :)
Finally something that is not required, but might be handy:
How well to WMVs work?
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 09:15 AM
cool, sounds all good then :)
Finally something that is not required, but might be handy:
How well to WMVs work?

Good question, I've never tried them... Maybe... but I doubt it to be honest, since WMVs were never designed for editing.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
03-11-2008, 09:27 AM
They actually worked quite well in Premiere Pro (we were trying the eval version once to see how well that would go).
Premiere insisted on scaling the FPS up to 24 PFS though, which made it totally unusable for this purpose (you would get interpolated frames inbetween the original frames and then you edit things and shift things arround and then you render everything out at 12 FPS and you end up having a semitransparent cursor half the time...).
The reason why WMV is interesting is because I actually found that Windows Media Encoder does a reasonably good job at screen- capturing. It does not care about the resolutions or the framerate and it is free. So a nice alternative. The problem is that it only does WMVs.
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 09:31 AM
The reason why WMV is interesting is because I actually found that Windows Media Encoder does a reasonably good job at screen- capturing. It does not care about the resolutions or the framerate and it is free. So a nice alternative. The problem is that it only does WMVs.

Ah, o.k. I use VirtualDub :)

I'll try later on today to see what happens... if I can find a WMV somehere. The problem is that SE will re-compress, so you'd like your source files to be as "untouched" as possible.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
03-11-2008, 09:44 AM
I thought that SE was using a lossless compression (the old VTcodec was that way).
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 09:52 AM
I thought that SE was using a lossless compression (the old VTcodec was that way).
CU
Elmar
I think internally it uses SpeedHQ for the cache... and your source video needs to be decompressed from it's initial state as well. Add the final compressions and you have three stages for potential loss.
What I meant is: If the original codec and the final codec are the same, it will not just push the compressed frames over (smart rendering) - but it will go through the de-/compression cycle once.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
03-11-2008, 10:04 AM
Hmmm, thats odd... I thought it was uncompressed like the VT.
Why would it do a lossy compression internally?
In the end I would output a uncompressed AVI, I believe that was what I managed to load back into Media Encoder for generating the final WMV (cant remember anymore, been a while).
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 10:12 AM
Hmmm, thats odd... I thought it was uncompressed like the VT.
Why would it do a lossy compression internally?

Disk i/o... remember, SE handles any resolution up to 2K.
It would be neat to have an option of what is used for the disk cache. I guess if you turn it completely off, it will render straight to your output file anyhow.

Cheers,
Mike

Jim_C
03-11-2008, 10:18 AM
How well to WMVs work?



Hit and miss.
You have to change the extension to .avi first then roll the dice.

John Perkins
03-11-2008, 12:44 PM
I think internally it uses SpeedHQ for the cache... and your source video needs to be decompressed from it's initial state as well. Add the final compressions and you have three stages for potential loss.
What I meant is: If the original codec and the final codec are the same, it will not just push the compressed frames over (smart rendering) - but it will go through the de-/compression cycle once.

Cheers,
Mike

The cache isn't referenced for the final render, so there is only one decompression and one compression.

The cache quality is only seen during playback from the timeline.

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 02:03 PM
The cache isn't referenced for the final render, so there is only one decompression and one compression.

The cache quality is only seen during playback from the timeline.
Good to know, thanks.

That implies two things...
a) There is no point in letting the cache render if all you need is a decent export
b) It would be possible to increase the render quality when rendering

Cheers,
Mike

John Perkins
03-11-2008, 02:25 PM
Good to know, thanks.

That implies two things...
a) There is no point in letting the cache render if all you need is a decent export

Correct. This is only used to play back sections too complex to play in realtime on your particular computer.


b) It would be possible to increase the render quality when rendering

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean render at a better quality than what you see during a background rendered preview, yes.

Also note that the realtime preview is using multipass rendering. High resolution projects with no DVEs (or with the replace with crossfades option) will look significantly sharper than even an non-BG rendered preview when rendered to a file.

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean render at a better quality than what you see during a background rendered preview, yes.
Hah, you almost fooled me. You are sure ;)
Yes, that's what I meant :D

Also note that the realtime preview is using multipass rendering. High resolution projects with no DVEs (or with the replace with crossfades option) will look significantly sharper than even an non-BG rendered preview when rendered to a file.
Good to know. Unfortunately that also implies that we can't judge the final quality before rendering out, right?
That would directly lead to a feature request (either triggered via a shortcut or a button on the viewer) - an option to view the current frame using the final render quality. (You saw that one coming, didn't you? ;) )

Cheers,
Mike

John Perkins
03-11-2008, 03:02 PM
We're way ahead of you on that one, but a one off preview frame really isn't enough. We're still working on removing the SD DVE issue completely.

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 03:40 PM
We're way ahead of you on that one, but a one off preview frame really isn't enough.
Cool, then I can expect 4:4:4, or optionalyl 8:8:8 rendering with improved filtering as well as procedural DVEs :D

Cheers,
Mike

CreatvGnius
03-12-2008, 12:28 PM
Cool, then I can expect 4:4:4, or optionalyl 8:8:8 rendering with improved filtering as well as procedural DVEs :D

Cheers,
Mike

Hi, Mike --
How would you define the effect of "procedurals" for the layperson? Just what is that, in 3D-speak, and in terms of what you (humorously) are asking for here?

Thanks in advance.
-PeterG

SBowie
03-12-2008, 12:56 PM
Fractals, Perlin, ripples, waves, and the like , I'd presume. That could be fun ...

John Perkins
03-12-2008, 01:37 PM
I read that as what I would call "programatic" as opposed to pre-rendered and non-adjustable.

SBowie
03-12-2008, 01:52 PM
Ahhhh - perhaps. I always think of procedurals in surfacing terms; I might have called that alternative 'customizable,' or maybe "non-canned" ... :p

Lightwolf
03-12-2008, 04:26 PM
I read that as what I would call "programatic" as opposed to pre-rendered and non-adjustable.
Yup, that's what I meant. And programatic is a more precise term thanks.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-12-2008, 04:28 PM
Ahhhh - perhaps. I always think of procedurals in surfacing terms;
well, there is procedural modeling, procedural animation...

Cheers,
Mike

CreatvGnius
03-12-2008, 04:38 PM
well, there is procedural modeling, procedural animation...

Cheers,
Mike

Care to elaborate on the two, distinguishing the two terms? (I'm not sure those contributing here, actually gave a description for "procedurals" that's suited for the thick-headed layperson, like this here poster. :D
-PeterG

SBowie
03-12-2008, 04:41 PM
I kind of want a better term, but haven't thought of one yet. You can't simply refer to 'dynamic' versus 'static.' You need a term that implies ability to customize an effect and it's timing. What's the opposite of 'canned'?

edit - maybe simply "variable" would do.

CreatvGnius
03-12-2008, 04:49 PM
...You need a term that implies ability to customize an effect and it's timing. What's the opposite of 'canned'?

edit - maybe simply "variable" would do. (emphasis, mine -p.g.)
"Customizable" :D
-PeterG
p.s.: What's a good definition for "procedurals", that a newbie can get his head around, Steve? :hey:

Lightwolf
03-12-2008, 05:12 PM
Care to elaborate on the two, distinguishing the two terms? (I'm not sure those contributing here, actually gave a description for "procedurals" that's suited for the thick-headed layperson, like this here poster. :D

Well, in the simplest case... as defined by a procedure, or formula - a mathematical expression.

I.e. using a sine function, and time as a parameter, you can let a value (let's say a position) oscillate over time.
x = a * sin(b * time)
That'd be an example of procedural animation. Vary a to change the amplitude, b to change the frequency.

It is also possible to use mathematical formula to create 3D objects (the simplest one being a sphere). Or combine them (add noise to a sphere to get a bumpy sphere).

Various noise functions are also procedural. Basically anything that depends purely on code and not some pre-rendered/painted/designed asset.

The main advantages are usually resolution independance and tweakability.

In this case I was mainly refering to the simpler , SMPTE style, wipes. I.e. Wipe left to right. As a procedural/programatic wipe you could easily adjust the timing, direction, smoothness of the wipe etc... And it would render preferectly at any resolution. Since no footage needs to be loaded, it would also help with disk i/o, but is likely to use a bit more CPU to calculate.

In a way, the 3D engine within SE (position, rotation) is procedural/programatic as well.

Cheers,
Mike *phew*

CreatvGnius
03-12-2008, 05:45 PM
Well, in the simplest case... as defined by a procedure, or formula - a mathematical expression.

I.e. using a sine function, and time as a parameter, you can let a value (let's say a position) oscillate over time.
x = a * sin(b * time)
That'd be an example of procedural animation. Vary a to change the amplitude, b to change the frequency...
Mike *phew*

Gee. Thanks, eh, Mike! :stumped:
You did well. I'll fault myself for not continuing in trigonometry and related studies.
-PeterG

SBowie
03-12-2008, 05:46 PM
Various noise functions are also procedural. Basically anything that depends purely on code and not some pre-rendered/painted/designed asset.That's a good definition.

In a way, the 3D engine within SE (position, rotation) is procedural/programatic as well.Still like more descriptive nomenclature though .... :p

Lightwolf
03-12-2008, 05:49 PM
You did well. I'll fault myself for not continuing in trigonometry and related studies.
Lol... look at the graph here, and imagine it to be a motion curve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-12-2008, 05:54 PM
That's a good definition.
Thanks, I tried to keep it short.

Still like more descriptive nomenclature though .... :p
Well, the fade and dip to colour in SE are procedural already, they just don't have a special name... except for them being fades ;)

I might make more sense to give them a name that is unrelated to how they work, but more to what they do. I still don't like dynamic or variable (as the opposite would be static).
Editable makes more sense (custom doesn't - I'd see those as wipes that the user has edited and stored as presets).

...and I'm not going to mention 3D (directX/openGL) accelerated DVEs/wipes either (like some of the competition offers) ;)

Cheers,
Mike

CreatvGnius
03-12-2008, 06:44 PM
That's a good definition.
Still like more descriptive nomenclature though .... :p

Or to make it more difficult for us laypersons to pronounce fluidly,
"Procedurally Configurable" or Configurable Procedurals.

Ah. That's too much of a mouthful. How'bout:

"Procedurally Modifiable? Naw.
"Modifiable Procedurals". That'd be better, right?

Whaddy'a think? Am I getting any closer? :D
-PeterG

SBowie
03-12-2008, 08:51 PM
Well, the fade and dip to colour in SE are procedural already, they just don't have a special name... except for them being fadesAnd for that reason, they don't really fully satisfy my desire. I'd really prefer 'user variable' (by whatever name) - so that, for example, the rate of fade can be user-modified, 'enveloped' if you will. Anything less than that is still a partial solution in my books. (If we're going to assume a revision of the whole thing is being considered, we might as well ask for the moon.)