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STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-07-2008, 06:44 AM
Had a friend who sold me his mac g4 with os x on it.
Normally wouldn't bother but, it had legit copies of photoshop 7, and illustrator 10 on it, which was worth the $200 alone.
Added it to my network, no problem. Commenced to play around familiarizing myself with the system. Guess what i discovered?
If you click and drag the icon of an application, it moves the WHOLE app, not just a shortcut icon.
Guess what else?
If you drag said icon into the trash and delete it cause you didn't want the shortcut on your desktop, it deletes the app!
Now the best part: This wonder of modern technology that supposedly outstrips Windows in all departments, doesn't have a system restore that allows you roll back and fix such idiosyncracies (or is it idoit-syncracies?).
After using Steve Jobs lovechild for a mere 35 minutes I managed to lose one of the most valuable apps on the system (the reason I bought this hideous boat anchor in the first place) in less than 3 clicks.
I thought Ole Billy was the antichrist. In fact I still do.
But he's not alone. This is probably the most asinine way of doing things I have ever come across. No warning. No solution.
Verdict: Windows not so bad. Mac a lot less than good.
And unless you can tell me how to undo this ridiculous situation, none of you Mac fanboys better come waving your flag around this thread, for I am on a riteous rampage of discontent, and will surely have choice and savage words for you.
Rant over, for now......

caccipergolo
03-07-2008, 06:58 AM
And why you post this on NEWTEK forums?

Otterman
03-07-2008, 06:59 AM
I have a few suggestions for ya but i dont think i wanna share them with you after that rant.....:goodluck:

Steamthrower
03-07-2008, 07:12 AM
Come one, Steel Toe, come on. You can make application aliases, which are the same as shortcuts...and you can back up your system easily.

Macs aren't for everybody. They're for artists, not technical types.

I love Macs. But others I know couldn't do anything on them.

You don't have the install discs for those "valuable" apps?

RollerJesus
03-07-2008, 07:28 AM
If you drag said icon into the trash and delete it cause you didn't want the shortcut on your desktop, it deletes the app!

I'm a PC person, but this is one thing that I, and I think a lot of other people, really like about my Mac... Easy to install/uninstall programs.

Doesn't matter which one I use, my gripe with Mac's ended when I plugged in my 3 button mouse, just wish it was easier (or possible???) to use both Mac's and PC's together with Screamernet.

dwburman
03-07-2008, 07:35 AM
You can probably find some software to undelete the deleted files and the new version of the Mac OS does have system restore software called timewarp.

On Win XP I've had to disable the system restore due to the threat of restoring files infected with a virus... at least that what the anti-virus software wanted me to do.

Did the software licenses get transfered into your name or were the apps just left on the machine? No wait, don't answer that. :)

Kaiten
03-07-2008, 07:37 AM
You can use something like Norton Solutions to go and restore deleted files... Ive only ever done that by booting the harddrive I want to restore up as a firewire disk on another mac...

Martin Adams
03-07-2008, 07:46 AM
I don't see how this is different to me dragging an application .exe to the recycle bin and emptying it. I thought the trash was for that 'undo' step, but if you empty it, well, there's only so much the software can protect you from.

On Windows you can do damage easily by going Click, Shift+Del, 'y'. The problem is that the icons you were using weren't aliases in the same way they would be shortcuts on Windows. Even on Windows if you click and drag the application .exe, you have to specifically specify if you want to copy a 'shortcut ' as a seperate option on a right click menu.

It just sounds like you're frustrated because you lost those applications, which the real undo option here is to reinstall them. But at least you now understand the design behind on apps, aliases and the trash can.

1. Don't move your apps around
2. Create aliases (aka shortcuts) to where you want to put them, e.g. Desktop
3. When you put something in the trash, don't delete it right away, the trash can is to protect you against that 'oh crap, what did I just do [heart beating]' moment.

But still, I don't see how this is different to Windows. Apps = .exe, Alias = Shotcut, Trach = Recycle Bin, User = User.

GATOR
03-07-2008, 08:00 AM
Where are the original install disks if the software is legit?

Adobe allows the transfer of license between individuals and businesses.

Just buying a computer with a program already installed on it does NOT make it legit.

Just curious.

littlewaves
03-07-2008, 08:01 AM
I've been wearing black jeans all my life but the other day my flatmate was having a clear-out and he had this pair of blue jeans that were my size.

Now obviously ordinarily I wouldn't consider deviating from the true path of black denim but the offer of a free pair of jeans was way too much to turn down (also they had a little loose change left in the pocket!)

Anyway I put them on, looked in the mirror and what do I see? They're like totally not black man!

I mean I really thought wearing a totally different colour wouldn't make that much difference but you know I've had them on for five minutes now and I still can't get my head round it.

Also I've ALWAYS had a zip fly in the past. What's with this crazy "ooh I'm so cool button fly" crap? I had to take them off completely just to pee.

So if any of you bluejean fanboys (and I think you should know I despise you) could help me out here with some advice I'd be really ungrateful

Otterman
03-07-2008, 08:07 AM
littlewaves....hope ur friend dressed to the same side as you if you know wot i mean.....yeeeew 2nd hand jeans heehee!

Jim_C
03-07-2008, 08:34 AM
Well gotta admit, even if it was all my fault, that would piss me off too.

(Sitting for first time at new system and seemingly deleting all my important programs with a drag and drop)

SBowie
03-07-2008, 08:39 AM
I began to use Macs occasionally a few years ago, only because I had to. My initial experience left me equally frustrated, but I recognized it a having at least as much to do with my lack of familiarity with the system as any inherent design issues. A number of concepts are distinctly 'different.'

I actually really like the fact that applications are (Amiga-like) largely self-contained, and wish this was true of Windows applications.

I do agree that there are times when OSX can be an awkward beast, but you can certainly say the same thing about Vista. I still rely on Windows systems predominantly, and don't expect that to change - but there are good things about the Mac. (For example, a person could learn a lot about smart, innovative UI design by looking at the iLife suite.)

SP00
03-07-2008, 08:43 AM
You should have backup disk for your mac. Sorry about your lost, but you can't dive into something new and do whatever you want without consequence.

Martin Adams
03-07-2008, 09:06 AM
I agree that it is frustrating when faced with a new way of working and getting caught out by a simple mistake. It's having these mistakes do we really learn how something works. Using a computer is about knowing the consequences of your actions, and any new OS will open up the risk of doing something you didn't quite expect to happen.

The point being, Steel Toe, you've made the mistake, you know you wont be making that mistake again. I personally think that there's nothing wrong with the way the OS handled what you did. While that doesn't help you, I hope you can understand how you should have been using the computer, not how the computer should have been reacting to your actions.

It's through experiences like this people realise better ways of working. Should OSX have given an additional warning that you're deleting an application from the trash? Is that what you wanted?

Scazzino
03-07-2008, 09:11 AM
I've been wearing black jeans all my life but the other day my flatmate was having a clear-out and he had this pair of blue jeans that were my size.

Now obviously ordinarily I wouldn't consider deviating from the true path of black denim but the offer of a free pair of jeans was way too much to turn down (also they had a little loose change left in the pocket!)

Anyway I put them on, looked in the mirror and what do I see? They're like totally not black man!

I mean I really thought wearing a totally different colour wouldn't make that much difference but you know I've had them on for five minutes now and I still can't get my head round it.

Also I've ALWAYS had a zip fly in the past. What's with this crazy "ooh I'm so cool button fly" crap? I had to take them off completely just to pee.

So if any of you bluejean fanboys (and I think you should know I despise you) could help me out here with some advice I'd be really ungrateful

I think that sums up the situation nicely... well done! :thumbsup:

SBowie
03-07-2008, 09:33 AM
And why you post this on NEWTEK forums?Indeed, way out of bounds! (Please restrict your comments to global warming or Paris Hilton in future.):D

DragonFist
03-07-2008, 09:43 AM
Should have watched this video first. Would have saved you a lot of headaches!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iEAGmBRC1dc

caccipergolo
03-07-2008, 09:51 AM
Indeed, way out of bounds! (Please restrict your comments to global warming or Paris Hilton in future.):D

mmm, the church one was one of my fav last year!!:D

Matt
03-07-2008, 09:54 AM
One thing I like about Windows is the Add/Remove programs (when they are written properly and actually delete all installed files).

On the mac, as far as I'm aware there is no such option. Unless the app comes with an uninstaller script you have to hunt around for all the files!

That, well, sucks. I like to try and keep my system as clean as possible, and that would bug the hellouta me!

mattclary
03-07-2008, 10:38 AM
I don't see how this is different to me dragging an application .exe to the recycle bin and emptying it. I thought the trash was for that 'undo' step, but if you empty it, well, there's only so much the software can protect you from.

On Windows you can do damage easily by going Click, Shift+Del, 'y'. The problem is that the icons you were using weren't aliases in the same way they would be shortcuts on Windows. Even on Windows if you click and drag the application .exe, you have to specifically specify if you want to copy a 'shortcut ' as a seperate option on a right click menu.

It just sounds like you're frustrated because you lost those applications, which the real undo option here is to reinstall them. But at least you now understand the design behind on apps, aliases and the trash can.

1. Don't move your apps around
2. Create aliases (aka shortcuts) to where you want to put them, e.g. Desktop
3. When you put something in the trash, don't delete it right away, the trash can is to protect you against that 'oh crap, what did I just do [heart beating]' moment.

But still, I don't see how this is different to Windows. Apps = .exe, Alias = Shotcut, Trach = Recycle Bin, User = User.

Ummmmm... yeah.... But in Windows, the stuff sitting on your desktop is a SHORTCUT, not the exe.

I've always said I would like to try OS X (when I can put it on a machine I built), but the info Steel Toe has provided is very enlightening. This is probably the case that what is on your desktop is still a shortcut, but since Macs are so simplified, Apple probably assumes that when one of their users deletes an app from the desktop, they mean "Get rid of this app, I dont want it any more", vs. MS going with the paradigm that users "may" know what they are doing.

Stooch
03-07-2008, 10:43 AM
lol. this is funny but I do share the sentiment. eject a cd by putting it into trash... yeah really logical.

anyway in this case the problem was behind the keyboard.

SBowie
03-07-2008, 10:48 AM
Ummmmm... yeah.... But in Windows, the stuff sitting on your desktop is a SHORTCUT, not the exe.Well, you could have the actual app located on the desktop, of course - but it's not very likely. I agree it is something much more likely to happen unintentionally on a Mac, especially for those coming from a Windows background.

Steamthrower
03-07-2008, 10:48 AM
lol. this is funny but I do share the sentiment. eject a cd by putting it into trash... yeah really logical.

anyway in this case the problem was behind the keyboard.

The main way to eject a CD is to hit the "eject" button on the keyboard.

You can't use Final Cut on PCs. And you can't play the newest blockbuster games on Macs. Fine w/ me. :D

mattclary
03-07-2008, 10:56 AM
Well, you could have the actual app located on the desktop, of course - but it's not very likely. I agree it is something much more likely to happen unintentionally on a Mac, especially for those coming from a Windows background.

So, if a Mac application is PROPERLY installed, deleting it from the desktop does not delete the application?

Andyjaggy
03-07-2008, 10:59 AM
Of coarse you have to ask yourself. Is Apple going to continue to be a player in the high-end professional industry. I hear more and more rumors that Apple is going to become an increasingly consumer based company, focusing more on ipods and personal electronic devices then high end software and hardware.

With the whole shake thing and the recent announcement that they will no longer be making Xserves you have to start wondering.

Add on top of that the whole 64bit fiasco with 10.5, and yeah. Draw you own conclusions.

SBowie
03-07-2008, 11:00 AM
The default location for apps is in "Applications" (Macs use an 'alias' system, and Applications is one of them.)

It is possible to create an alias for the executable file and put it on the desktop, but someone familiar with Windows methodology could easily think that's what they had done when they simply dragged the app icon onto the Desktop. Not so, as seen in this case.

RonGC
03-07-2008, 11:12 AM
What we mac users do is install the applications in the applications folder or another preferred folder, off the desktop. If we want a shortcut to the App on our desktop we make an alias and either leave it on the desktop or store it in the dock. If you delete the alias its deleted not the app.

After all a trash can is supposed to be for trash, not something you want to keep.

There are also many free application deleters ( read uninstaller) for Mac that can remove all the associated files that are created when you install an app and removes all these and the app in one click.

The Only icons on my desktop are of the HD's i have attached, i keep a neat and tidy organized system. Much easier to find things, and with the new search system i can find anything tucked away, no matter how obscure, in a few seconds.

There are differences between systems, and when i once in a while do use windows im lost for a little while trying to remember how to heck to use the Windows way of doing things. I don't blame Windows, i just realize how unused i am to that system.

I am the Nut behind the wheel, directing the computer, just need to make sure that i am speaking the same language it is.

Ron

Steamthrower
03-07-2008, 11:16 AM
I agree somewhat with what Andy is saying about Apple & professionals, but just look at the sales increases that they've had in their Mac Pros and iMacs and MacBook Pros recently...they've outstripped a lot of PC vendors.

Add to that the fact that Final Cut and Shake are among the top used apps, and every single graphic designer/web designer worth his salt will have a Mac...I think they have a pretty firm handhold.

There's rumors about a replacement for Shake. People are expecting it to be announced at the next NAB or SIGGRAPH.

Steamthrower
03-07-2008, 11:18 AM
Also the way Mac installs files keeps it a lot cleaner overall.

Windows has this horrible registry system. Whereas Mac just has an Application folder and a Library folder...not much else.

Andyjaggy
03-07-2008, 11:20 AM
I don't know about you statement that every single graphic/web designer who is worth his salt will have a mac......... I think that is maybe 80% true, and based mostly on perception. There still isn't much you can do on a PC you can't do on a mac and vice versa.

safetyman
03-07-2008, 11:20 AM
I use Macs occasionally and since I'm fairly computer savvy, I have no problems with them. I think however, that Apple does things "differently" on purpose, just for the sake of being different, so functionality is sometimes just thrown to the wind (the standard one-button mouse which actually has two, the fact that you can't always tell which app you are in if you have 4 or 5 of them open and constantly clicking on the desktop when you meant to click on a blank area of the app). Not that being different is bad -- just... different. I think that throws people off when switching between the two OS's.

Stooch
03-07-2008, 11:26 AM
The main way to eject a CD is to hit the "eject" button on the keyboard.

You can't use Final Cut on PCs. And you can't play the newest blockbuster games on Macs. Fine w/ me. :D

im fully aware of that. and that makes even more sense! your keyboard has the cd drive built in right?

The most logical way to eject a cd is by pressing the eject button on the CD drive. afterall im already reaching for it in the first place? but god forbid apple sacrified usability for aesthetics right? (cough mighty mouse, cough)

Andyjaggy
03-07-2008, 11:27 AM
Just to clarify a bit, I am not a mac hater.

I use both PC's and Mac's on a regular basis and appreciate the streangths of each platform. There are things about both of them that drive me nuts.

However after using both for several years I still find myself prefering PC's over Mac's especially with the full 64bit architecture of modern PC's

The one thing that I do hate though is obsessive mac fanboys who refuse to acknowledge that anything that comes from Apple could possible have any flaws and not work as if it was engineered by God.

Jim_C
03-07-2008, 11:35 AM
Ummmmm... yeah.... But in Windows, the stuff sitting on your desktop is a SHORTCUT, not the exe.

I've always said I would like to try OS X (when I can put it on a machine I built), but the info Steel Toe has provided is very enlightening. This is probably the case that what is on your desktop is still a shortcut, but since Macs are so simplified, Apple probably assumes that when one of their users deletes an app from the desktop, they mean "Get rid of this app, I dont want it any more", vs. MS going with the paradigm that users "may" know what they are doing.

I've always wondered why when you delete an application shortcut from the desktop in Windows, a warning pops up telling you that you are NOT deleting the program just the shortcut and you must use Add/Remove programs for that.

I always thought 'Well Duh...'
But it could be for Mac folks trying things for the first time on a PC and expecting the whole app to uninstall and disappear just because they drag one icon into the trash.


I personally think it would be nice if Macs had a similar warning..
"Warning , by dragging this program icon into the trash bin you are completely removing it and its installed program from your computer. This icon is not a shortcut.' or something similar.

IMO, Apple's thoughts sometimes seem to be, THIS is obviously the easiest to use OS and if you delete your entire program with one drag and drop, well shame on you, you MUST be an idiot, because this is a Mac OS.
We don't need no stinking warnings.

Not that I don't like Mac OS... or Windows.. to me they are the exact same.
Technical stuff to learn. One works one way, one works another, some things are easier in one, some things are easier in another.

RonGC
03-07-2008, 11:37 AM
Well you have to go back to the original design concepts of Windows and Mac. Windows was originally designed for business and Mac for creatives, 2 totally different philosophies. Due to this the way of doing things was going to diverge somewhat.

Windows was always a more tinker and change, with direct in your face changeability, with its power out in the open with easy access. Mac was more of a get out of my face and let me create concept, with the power of the OS accessible but hidden.

Most creative types are not techies, takes a different mind set, because of this they don't want to tinker with their systems and prefer everything OS like, tucked away out of sight. Let the system do what its good at so they can do their thing uninterrupted.

This whole Windows versus Mac thing is really due to different mind structures competing with neither side able to see, or really understand, the others point of view because of the way their brain works, you know..... right side, versus left side use.

Ron

Jim_C
03-07-2008, 11:40 AM
The one thing that I do hate though is obsessive mac fanboys who refuse to acknowledge that anything that comes from Apple could possible have any flaws and not work as if it was engineered by God.

Agreed. Of course there are also Windows fanboys, Linux, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, Lightwave, Blender,Chevy, etc etc etc...

But there seems to be more of an..... arrogance and vehemence, and a refusal for any compromise or change or chance with the rabib Mac crowd.

Macs sure are one heck of a well built machine tho imo..
Man those things are quiet and cool. At least the few I work around.

Andyjaggy
03-07-2008, 12:13 PM
I do love the case design of the powermacs. Open them up and marvel at the engineering. I wish I could buy just the case to build a PC in.

blindsided
03-07-2008, 12:45 PM
If they were legit copies of the software why not just re-install?

parm
03-07-2008, 01:05 PM
lol. this is funny but I do share the sentiment. eject a cd by putting it into trash... yeah really logical.

Or, better still. Right click on the cd/dvd icon on the desktop to eject.

On Macs, Cd's and all removable drives. Appear as an icon on the computer screen when attached. :)

SBowie
03-07-2008, 01:16 PM
Right click right ... click. Right - heheheheheh. (I frequently do tech support for both Windows and Mac users. I am frequently asked how to do that.)

Steamthrower
03-07-2008, 01:17 PM
Macs have their share of problems. I'd definitely call myself a fanboy, but not a diehard fanboy if you know what I mean.

I like them for their hardware more than the software, I think. My biggest reason to like Macs is because the OS and the hardware is "married" so to speak. There's a lot less to go wrong compatibility wise than on a PC.

And of course there's the virus issue. Let's not even go there though.

hrgiger
03-07-2008, 01:49 PM
this thread settles it, I'm done with Macs for good.


Of course, I've owned a Mac.

RonGC
03-07-2008, 02:17 PM
Lets face it if Windows and Mac OsX were both the same they would be the same OS. They have different ways and will always be so. Just choose the system that does things the way you like but keep an open mind.

People are not arrogant because they prefer one system over another thats just personal preference and is the right of any consumer to choose, not be forced by someone else to choose brand x.

People do this with all products choose one over the other, some even in the face of overwhelming facts that a product sucks will still stick to their choice right or wrong. But it is their choice leave them be, is my belief.

You can see a microcosm of this right now with the Windows XP versus Vista
*debates*, polite word for screaming matchs, that are all over the web currently. One entrenched belief fighting another.

Ron

JeffrySG
03-07-2008, 02:45 PM
Lets face it if Windows and Mac OsX were both the same they would be the same OS. They have different ways and will always be so. Just choose the system that does things the way you like but keep an open mind.
Ron
:agree:

The real problem was that you (STM) assumed that Window works the same way the OSX works. This was a poor assumption. I think you'll find that both OSes have good and bad elements. Moving and coping of files is one place they do vary. Until you are familiar with the way both of them do things you probably are not in a good position to really compare them. You can drag out an alias to the desktop. You just have to know how. (Hold the option & command keys while dragging) And just like windows, OSX will put a little arrow on the icon to let you know that it's an alias so you don't trash an original like you did.

SP00
03-07-2008, 02:52 PM
I use to hate macs and thought that PC were much better for the price. I also didn't like the Tiger OSX over windows XP. Tiger was inferior to XP in so many ways. However, with Leopard all of that changed. Now, I have the mentality that there is no reason for me to buy a PC again. Of course I came to this conclusion based on the improvements with the Mac and OSX and how they price both their software and hardware.

!) First the hardware is pretty similar in price to a PC if you consider all the features you get on a mac vs. pc. (bluetooth, firewire 800, webcam, etc.)
2) The default software is much better than the default software on XP. iMovies vs Movie maker, Mail vs. outlook express, the iLife suite, and my favorite iChat with multiple video connects for video conferencing.
3) viewing your library of renders or photos are a breeze using coverflow.
4) spaces and expose map to your 3rd and 4th button of the mighty mouse makes your desktop much more manageable and more convenient to navigate.
5) Macs software are generally cheaper. Final Cut Studio 2, iWork08, OSX Leopard, etc. Of course this is only useful if you use these apps.
6) Bootcamp, parallel, or Fusion for software not out on mac.

These are just some of the reason why I'll probably stick with the Mac unless something dramatically happens where Windows Vista is the better experience.

I do wish the mighty mouse would feel more ergonomic, but I love the little track ball on top of the mouse, maybe newtek can use it to rotate 3D objects in LW.

Signal to Noise
03-07-2008, 02:54 PM
I've paid $200 for a mouse. To pay $200 for a G4 WITH "legit" applications is pretty good in my book and not worth complaining about.

While reading your post/rant Steel Toe I couldn't help thinking about monster trucks. Monster truck people and Macs do not gel well. It's the law of the tech world.

RedBull
03-07-2008, 07:03 PM
If you click and drag the icon of an application, it moves the WHOLE app, not just a shortcut icon.
Guess what else?
If you drag said icon into the trash and delete it cause you didn't want the shortcut on your desktop, it deletes the app!
Now the best part: This wonder of modern technology that supposedly outstrips Windows in all departments, doesn't have a system restore that allows you roll back and fix such idiosyncracies (or is it idoit-syncracies?).
After using Steve Jobs lovechild for a mere 35 minutes I managed to lose one of the most valuable apps on the system (the reason I bought this hideous boat anchor in the first place) in less than 3 clicks.
I thought Ole Billy was the antichrist. In fact I still do.
But he's not alone. This is probably the most asinine way of doing things I have ever come across. No warning. No solution.
Verdict: Windows not so bad. Mac a lot less than good.
And unless you can tell me how to undo this ridiculous situation, none of you Mac fanboys better come waving your flag around this thread, for I am on a riteous rampage of discontent, and will surely have choice and savage words for you.
Rant over, for now......

You should really enjoy this video called "Mac Crash Differently"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7148748849652085555
My LW distributor sent it to me a year or two back, i often watch it for a good laugh... :)

DragonFist
03-07-2008, 07:22 PM
You should really enjoy this video called "Mac Crash Differently"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7148748849652085555
My LW distributor sent it to me a year or two back, i often watch it for a good laugh... :)

:ohmy: Hey, I already posted that video in this thread :grumpy:

Oh well, maybe it'll get the desired effect this time around. :D

GATOR
03-07-2008, 08:29 PM
"Its stupid" indeed.

It's stupid indeed.

A Forrest would say..."Stupid is as stupid does."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Or, should I say, couldt resist.

:)

lesterfoster
03-07-2008, 10:36 PM
Relax everyone. Your new computer is going to become a old one. And sooner or later it is going to end up hear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1_uvM-5xKs

meshpig
03-08-2008, 01:04 AM
And unless you can tell me how to undo this ridiculous situation, none of you Mac fanboys better come waving your flag around this thread, for I am on a riteous rampage of discontent, and will surely have choice and savage words for you.
Rant over, for now......

Um, how about "Time Machine"? External drives are cheap. It's really quite inoffensive and works but your rage has unbalanced you.

:yoda:

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-08-2008, 03:31 AM
YES, YES MAC USERS, all good points indeed.
And yes the apps are legal and registered, i just don't have the discs because the person i got the machine from, got it from someone else, who no longer uses those apps and had over the years lost the original discs during multiple moves.
Perhaps some of you macsters missed the self hating sarcasm directed at myself for doing something so simple yet devastating in effect.
I suppose that sort of self debasing humour is only funny to us non technical, pc using, monster truck ([email protected]#?, I don't even drive,and your from alberta "dude", so don't even...) loving heathens. At least a couple of you got it.......
Speaking of non technical types (and sarcastic criticism), when was the last time one of you advanced appleheads "built" your own machine?
Yeah, that's what i thought.
Anyway, this whole thread was a rant. By definition:
harangue: a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion
bombast: pompous or pretentious talk or writing
talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner

A rant is a widespread and distinctive phenomenon of emotional speech or writing usually consisting of complaints or attacks, sometimes in a political nature. Rarely, rants express great praise, defending an idea or a person from attack

or alternatively:a dance step apparently originating in northern England

I suppose I should have posted this under the "jokes" , or what I ate for dinner threads. Considering we are all computer users of one devil or another, I thought at least some of you would get a giggle out of it. Man are some geeks/nerds sensitive. Get out of yer momma's basement and go talk to regular humans once in awhile, sheesh.
ANYWAY, I still have iilustrator, and was planning on picking up corel painter 10, purely for the fact they are a canadian company(at least they were, don't know if thats still true), its cheaper and less corporately invasive than anything adobe, and most importantly (:foreheads ) now I need it.....

meshpig
03-08-2008, 04:37 AM
Diazepam might help?

- It's a cross-platform, single-core, world-wide application and with mac hines, it has absoluely no effect... but opens windows onto new vistas in terms of world health.

Personally, it does nothing for me.

m

SBowie
03-08-2008, 07:17 AM
Oh, I suspect we're not all "appleheads" - just trying to help. And hopefully a few of the remarks will do so, if belatedly. ;)

I only wish my newest Mac locked up as infrequently as my XP system (i.e., virtually never.)

Steamthrower
03-08-2008, 08:31 AM
Speaking of non technical types (and sarcastic criticism), when was the last time one of you advanced appleheads "built" your own machine?

I'm a so-called "applehead" but have built my share of computers...I mean, I may be artistic but I also can code C++, develop PHP applications, use a command line...not totally artsy...

SBowie
03-08-2008, 09:19 AM
I've always been skeptical of claims of Apple's 'artistic dominance.' There may well be a higher percentage of Mac users who think of themselves as artists, but even so - the sheer weight of numbers argues that there are many more artists using Windows systems. That may change though.

Especially in recent years, Apple has done a lot of things right. I'd say they win hands-down on UI and integration. Yet it seems to me that claims around 'artistry' are lot more rooted in good advertising than anything else. Clearly, a great number of richly-talented artists use and have used Windows systems. (In earlier periods, I think the child-proof nature of the Mac would have frustrated the daylights out of the most truly creative people I've known. Thankfully, OS X is more open to the wild-eyed creative sparks.) Even so, I think a fair number of those people with artistic pretensions originally bought into the Apple marketing hype without any standard for comparison.

The tables have somewhat turned in the last 3-4 years. Substantial numbers are considering migrating - among them some talented artists, and some skilled technical types (I do not think being the former automatically excuses one from the challenge of attaining a modicum of knowledge of the latter realm, either. I have actually had people say to me "I am an artist - I shouldn't have to know how the program works!" Tell that to Leonardo and the 'Renaissance Gang,' who invented whole new branches of science in furtherance of art. It's a balancing act ... lately Apple has been striking a pretty good balance.)

CG Addict
03-08-2008, 09:59 AM
What makes threads like this so useless is that most users here probably use more than one OS and more than likely that they are well accomplished in Windows and OSX perhaps also with Linux and others.

STEEL TOE MEDIA you screwed up, the OS simply obeyed. Should've read the manual or at the very least got some advice on how to use OSX. Most folks here would have done that to begin with. Blaming the OS for blind stupidity won't help.

OSX sucks, Windows sucks, Linux sucks ... yea they all suck in one way or another. What I'm finding out on a lot of these threads is that the operator more times than not screwed up and wants to take it out on said OS. These are just machines with languages suited to carrying out your instructions.

Stop hating and start reading the user manuals.

Jim_C
03-08-2008, 10:13 AM
STEEL TOE MEDIA you screwed up, the OS simply obeyed. Should've read the manual or at the very least got some advice on how to use OSX. Most folks here would have done that to begin with. Blaming the OS for blind stupidity won't help.
.

Really? Now c'mon .. how many people here, would have gotten a hand me down Mac and before even turning it on start reading a frigging manual on it?
1 in 10? Maybe 3.

Would it have been so hard for Apple to include a warning of what was to happen?

SBowie
03-08-2008, 10:17 AM
What makes threads like this so useless ... (snip)It's Saturday, 40-50 cm of new snow predicted on top of the 30 or so earlier in the week ... as an alternative to shoveling, this isn't so bad. it's just a little casual chit-chat, right? As platform discussions go, this one is pretty peaceful.

David_CGC
03-08-2008, 10:23 AM
(In earlier periods, I think the child-proof nature of the Mac would have frustrated the daylights out of the most truly creative people I've known. Thankfully, OS X is more open to the wild-eyed creative sparks.)

I find that statement ironic, since the entire raison d'être of the thread is that someone expected the Mac to protect them from themselves the same way Windows would, by preventing someone from actually moving their files around lest they put something where it doesn't belong.

SBowie
03-08-2008, 10:51 AM
I can see why you'd think that, but really Windows doesn't prevent the user from putting it where it doesn't belong - it just makes it less likely that they'll do it unintentionally or without consideration. (Excepting Vista, which is a more intrusive animal, Windows doesn't prevent very much, really - which in some ways has admittedly been its downfall.)

RonGC
03-08-2008, 11:17 AM
Its true that windows has market dominance in sheer numbers but when you start to look at which areas their used in, on office tower in manhattan can have 10,000 computers all windows. a huge majority of the windows machines are used as number crunchers in business. Then you have a lot being used by hardcore gamers.

And of course the many cheap consumer PC which sits on home desks collecting dust or used occasionally to surf the net. My windows machine unfortunately falls into this category.

When you get down to the creative, Video, graphics, Vfx side, in current times Windows and Mac are about equal. The last statistics i saw, a few years old, on numbers was that Mac was at about 48% to windows 52%, with the Mac percentages growth rate around 5%. On the Music composing midi side Macs still have the biggest percentages. This was for North america.

Just because Windows has more units does not really come into play in any really meaningful way.


Ron

SBowie
03-08-2008, 11:31 AM
As I said, it's changed in recent periods, but I am inclined to doubt there's equality yet. Statistics would be interesting, even given that they can be misleading. You'd have to agree on what constitutes 'creative use', too - for example, do we allow graphic-related website work into the mix? (I think you'd have to.)

I could easily be wrong, just my impression. I'd be very interested to see a breakdown by platform for Photoshop seats. That would probably be a fair indicator.

kopperdrake
03-08-2008, 11:35 AM
If you click and drag the icon of an application, it moves the WHOLE app, not just a shortcut icon.
Guess what else?
If you drag said icon into the trash and delete it cause you didn't want the shortcut on your desktop, it deletes the app!

No offense but if you're stupid enough to go into a folder called 'Applications', drag an icon to your desktop, then drag that same icon into the trash, then you're really not fit to use any computer!

Guess what...if I go into my PC's Programs folder, drag the icon to the watebasket, and delete it, guess what happens? Same thing...no exe file.

A Mac icon has that same little shortcut arrow on it to indicate it's a shortcut that the PC has...it's a dead giveaway.

RonGC
03-08-2008, 11:48 AM
As I said, it's changed in recent periods, but I am inclined to doubt there's equality yet. Statistics would be interesting, even given that they can be misleading. You'd have to agree on what constitutes 'creative use', too - for example, do we allow graphic-related website work into the mix? (I think you'd have to.)

I could easily be wrong, just my impression. I'd be very interested to see a breakdown by platform for Photoshop seats. That would probably be a fair indicator.

Yes could be more indicative, The statistics quoted were for creative houses, not individuals. Im sure that there are a lot of work off the kitchen table web designers out there LOL. which could slew the numbers heavily one way or another.

However the true Digital Professional Creative base is quite small somewhere around 1% of population. There are still a lot more traditional artists than Digital.

Amongst Macs a higher percentage of units in use are being used for creative work rather than games, business etc, than amongst Windows machines in use.

Ron

SBowie
03-08-2008, 11:55 AM
Amongst Macs a higher percentage of units in use are being used for creative work rather than games, business etc, than amongst Windows machines in use.I'm sure that's true - I'm just not at all sure it sufficiently compensates for the disparity. I've been looking for relevant numbers, but haven't found anything that seems reasonably definitive.

Steamthrower
03-08-2008, 12:08 PM
One plus point for me is that there's a lot more small freebie creative software for Mac, that actually works and is usable, than there is for Windows.

SBowie
03-08-2008, 12:12 PM
One plus point for me is that there's a lot more small freebie creative software for Mac, that actually works and is usable, than there is for Windows.Do you think so? One thing I do like about the Mac in recent times is that what apps exist are commendably well thought out, and often quite reasonably priced. But there are simply tons of creative applications out there for Windows, large and small. Do you really think this is a Mac edge by now?

RonGC
03-08-2008, 12:15 PM
Trying to factor in home based creatives is going to be tough. You are essentially trying to hit a moving target, here today gone tomorrow, changing ISP's and use of others servers. Just to darn hard to accurately count.

Creative houses have an easy to count presence as they need to grow their market and have their customers be able to come to them for services.

Home based individual web designers tend to work more locally and by word of mouth to attract new customers.

Ron

SBowie
03-08-2008, 12:23 PM
I bet Adobe has figures ...

RonGC
03-08-2008, 12:26 PM
Do you think so? One thing I do like about the Mac in recent times is that what apps exist are commendably well thought out, and often quite reasonably priced. But there are simply tons of creative applications out there for Windows, large and small. Do you really think this is a Mac edge by now?

Most of the professional ones are Mac as well or have a Mac equivalent.

Again numbers do not equate quality, we really need to judge a platform by what it can do for me, not just how much content is available.

The main reason for my move over to the Mac platform was FinalCut Pro. I found i was able to complete video production 30% faster with it and the Mac. This meant a lot more money in my pocket as a Video Producer.

Ron

Jim_C
03-08-2008, 12:41 PM
The main reason for my move over to the Mac platform was FinalCut Pro. I found i was able to complete video production 30% faster with it and the Mac. This meant a lot more money in my pocket as a Video Producer.



I'm sure it varies but what job you are doing, but if you can write that book to show editors how they can save 30%(!!) of their time by using FCP instead of a PC based NLE, you could make a fortune.

hrgiger
03-08-2008, 01:15 PM
this thread settles it, I'm done with Macs for good.


Of course, I've owned a Mac.

duh. I just realized, I meant to say I 'never' owned a mac. A little too late to save that joke.

SBowie
03-08-2008, 01:16 PM
Again numbers do not equate quality, we really need to judge a platform by what it can do for me, not just how much content is available.No argument - but in fairness, I wasn't the one who wrote "there's a lot more small freebie creative software for Mac" ... which is what I was questioning.

SBowie
03-08-2008, 01:19 PM
btw - it's very nice to see that this thread, although tinkering around with a subject that can often lead to flame-fests, hasn't. It is entirely possible to kick even a controversial topic around without calling each other names.

(Besides, we all know the Amiga is coming back any day now and is going to mop up the competition, right?)

dwburman
03-08-2008, 01:22 PM
1) sarcasm doesn't translate well into plain text.

2) I've built several PC's... I like being able to pick exactly which components I want ... If I buy a new workstation it'll probably be a Mac with both OS X and Windows.

Mac OS 9 and before was dreadful by modern standards. I'm glad that thing is dead.

RonGC
03-08-2008, 01:41 PM
I'm sure it varies but what job you are doing, but if you can write that book to show editors how they can save 30%(!!) of their time by using FCP instead of a PC based NLE, you could make a fortune.

Over all percentages based on what i was able to do on the PC to what i was doing on the Mac. More money in the pocket. Its the flow of Apple apps that work nicely together, from audio through to editing. Video production is just not editing standalone.

I ran my own video production company. Oil-patch was my main target, Documentaries, training videos etc. Big dollars up here. Retired now, have been for a few years. If windows apps would have made me more money i would have stuck with them. LOL

Not saying that Mac is for everyone, your needs and milage may vary. for my needs it fit perfectly.

Ron

RonGC
03-08-2008, 01:48 PM
btw - it's very nice to see that this thread, although tinkering around with a subject that can often lead to flame-fests, hasn't. It is entirely possible to kick even a controversial topic around without calling each other names.

(Besides, we all know the Amiga is coming back any day now and is going to mop up the competition, right?)

God i miss my Amiga. Yes i enjoy a nice peaceful chat without schoolyard fights. It is a real pleasure to spend some time in relaxing communication.

Ron

Steamthrower
03-08-2008, 03:38 PM
No argument - but in fairness, I wasn't the one who wrote "there's a lot more small freebie creative software for Mac" ... which is what I was questioning.

Actually I meant "more creative free software for Macs that's actually useful". There's thousands of little apps for Windows that just clog up your registry and nothing else. I've found that the Mac shareware/open source community is somewhat more broad (and since it's UNIX based, a lot of Linux programs are ported easily).

RonGC
03-08-2008, 04:07 PM
Actually I meant "more creative free software for Macs that's actually useful". There's thousands of little apps for Windows that just clog up your registry and nothing else. I've found that the Mac shareware/open source community is somewhat more broad (and since it's UNIX based, a lot of Linux programs are ported easily).

Don't forget the iLife apps that come bundled with the Mac, consumer but very powerful and interchange resources and data very well.
No other platform supplies anything close to these apps in their bundles.

Ron

SP00
03-08-2008, 05:58 PM
It takes a bit of time to get use to Leopard, but once you get use to how things are done, you will like it. I only became a Mac fan in the last 2 months, before that I was hardcore PC. I built them, I admin them, and I programmed for them.

SBowie
03-08-2008, 08:13 PM
Actually I meant "more creative free software for Macs that's actually useful". There's thousands of little apps for Windows that just clog up your registry and nothing else. I've found that the Mac shareware/open source community is somewhat more broad (and since it's UNIX based, a lot of Linux programs are ported easily).I don't know - there are lots of free and inexpensive yet useful Windows apps, too. And lots of linux stuff has Windows ports as well. That said, I don't use my macs as heavily, and am not well versed in what's available for them outside the mainstream, so would be interested in anything you care to mention that is uniquely mac, free and useful.

As to iLife, it is a cool little pack (I think I gave it honorable mention myself earlier in this thread.)

Steamthrower
03-08-2008, 08:28 PM
I really love iLife. For throwing quick things together, iPhoto, iWeb, Garageband, and iMovie are great alternatives for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Soundtrack, and Final Cut. They definitely beat MS Paint and Movie Maker.

Here are some very useful apps that I use on a Mac:

Handbrake (DVD to video conversion)
Adium (the IM equivalent of Pidgin)
CinePaint (the newest release is not ported to Windows)
Ardour (audio editor, port from Linux)

These are the free ones I like. There is a plethora of cheap commercial stuff out there that's excellent quality. The problem with cheap software for Windows is that it comes by the bucketful and you'll have to buy three dozen programs before you hit gold. With Mac software, it's a smaller more niche market. So crappy stuff doesn't float well.

And I know I've said this before, but Final Cut Studio 2 sells retail for $1300. Equivalent top-of-the-line professional motion graphics program, non-linear editor, sound app, titling program, color grading software, and conversion/compression software for Windows? Sheesh: Avid, After Effects, Audition, Boris, and Autodesk software might run into the $10k range.

But, lest I make this into a fight (it's pretty calm so far!) let me say again that platform preference is just that: preference. Nothing but personal preference. It's the difference between a BMW and a Porsche and a Mercedes.

Wait. No.

Mac / Linux / Windows = Porsche / Humvee / Kia.

:devil:

Philbert
03-08-2008, 09:37 PM
Macs aren't for everybody. They're for artists, not technical types.


I'm an artist, I won't touch one.

Stooch
03-08-2008, 09:41 PM
same here. infact most 3d artists that i know are pc guys. infact i feel that its safe to assume that there is FAR more pc user 3d artists out there. designers... ok ill give that to macs. (ie photoshop/illustrator guys). sound? i cant say its mac dominant either, ive been to plenty of music hardware stores and fruityloops workstation bundles usually come with PCs driving em. infact computer based hardware bundles in general outnumber mac workstation bundles several to one at most stores ive been to

add up all the 3dsmax seats, those are all PC guys. supposedly the widest install base...

and it makes sense, 3d is a more technical artform, and for me PCs are better for more technically savy users.

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 06:10 AM
No offense but if you're stupid enough to go into a folder called 'Applications', drag an icon to your desktop, then drag that same icon into the trash, then you're really not fit to use any computer!

Guess what...if I go into my PC's Programs folder, drag the icon to the watebasket, and delete it, guess what happens? Same thing...no exe file.

A Mac icon has that same little shortcut arrow on it to indicate it's a shortcut that the PC has...it's a dead giveaway.


********.

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 06:36 AM
You can't delete any application from windows merely by dragging it to the waste basket and deleting it.
You have to go to the remove programs window.

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 06:48 AM
Besides,this post wasn't supposed to generate a flame war.
I found something as a windows user to be stupid. IN FACT, after playing around a little longer, I fail to see what the big attraction to mac is. It isn't any faster. It's isn't any "prettier". In fact, had I started on a mac, I doubt I would have even kept using it to this point.
Not because I'm a windows fanboy.
Just because it's better.
The virus argument doesn't hold water.
Why?
No illegal software, music, or movies.
Good antivirus.
Simple.
So you can sit on your self riteous apple hobby horse and spout about how good it is.
Or you can tighten your geek tie(?) and spout about how windows sux.
Both right.
NOW, who wants a beer?

Medi8or
03-09-2008, 07:16 AM
You can't delete any application from windows merely by dragging it to the waste basket and deleting it.
You have to go to the remove programs window.In your own words: ********! :)

You'll probably leave a lot of junk in different folders and in the registry, but if you drop the program file into the waste basket and delete, it's gone, it doesn't work any more...

Edit: this isn't in defense of Mac. I've hardly seen a Mac after looking at a Mac SE in 1987...

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 07:27 AM
********.
As an aside if you drag an icon from anything, anywhere, in windows, be it xp or vista, all you do is create a shortcut to that folder. Delete at will. It even pops up a window that says" deleteing the icon only deletes the icon.To totally remove the program, you must go to windows change or remove programs to totally remove this application", or a variation of that statement.
After what you just said, one has to ask:
Have you ever used window?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic or inflammatory, but that is just, well, wrong.

Sorry, Kopperdrake, there have been many crocks perpetuated so far, but i couldn't let that one go. You called me stupid on that one, and i have to say that it is you.
You are wrong. Just plain wrong.

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 07:31 AM
In your own words: ********! :)

You'll probably leave a lot of junk in different folders and in the registry, but if you drop the program file into the waste basket and delete, it's gone, it doesn't work any more...

Edit: this isn't in defense of Mac. I've hardly seen a Mac after looking at a Mac SE in 1987...
NO. Big EFFing no. It doesn't work like that.
Your incurable dumbass thingy is more right than you think.

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 07:33 AM
Besides, even if it did, which it doesn't, if you restore to a previous point, it is undone, which i believe was my original *****, so to speak.

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 07:38 AM
Not to mention the fact, after using windows for the last 6 years, i have never experienced such an occurence while bumbling thru in my early attempts at mastery,so blow it out your pie hole.Everyone starts from the beginning, no one walks in knowing everything, so stow the "you dumbass n00b crap".
Why, oh why isn't there a "who want's a beer button" on this forum?

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 07:43 AM
NO. Big EFFing no. It doesn't work like that.
Your incurable dumbass thingy is more right than you think.
this isn't a windows fanboy comment either. I thought i made it clear that i think they are both the devil.
I swear if i start arguing both sides before this thread ends, i'll never post again.;D

Medi8or
03-09-2008, 07:48 AM
NO. Big EFFing no. It doesn't work like that.Feel free to explain where I'm wrong. You said "dragging an application to waste basket" not "dragging shortcut".

To answere a statement from your previous post:

..if you drag an icon from anything, anywhere, in windows, be it xp or vista, all you do is create a shortcut to that folder.That isn't true. Dragging to the same harddisk moves by default, you have to hold down Alt to create shortcut. Dragging to different hd will copy by default.
Of course dragging to waste basket deletes...


Your incurable dumbass thingy is more right than you think.Why, thank you!

Medi8or
03-09-2008, 07:49 AM
Crikey.. You trying to raise your post-count, or what? :D

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 08:00 AM
NO. Big EFFing no. It doesn't work like that.
Your incurable dumbass thingy is more right than you think.
I apologize.
After rereading this post, I agree that dragging the program exe. to the waste basket and then emptying said waste basket would indeed fuzzack the app.
But,
1. To get to the exe. file requires more than 2 or 3 clicks and when you get there it doesn't look like a shortcut icon(as there is an icon for the app launcher, that has the company logo on it, and when you click it, the app starts. If you drag it anywhere, it makes a shortcut, which sometimes doesn't always work, because windows sux.), it looks like something someone who doesn't know what they are doing shouldn't touch.
2.If you are dumb enough to wipe all this crap out, (which i have tried on many occaisions, to get rid of stuff, Get ccleaner. Its awesome and it's free)it rarely if ever works.
3.it would be screwed but fixable even without the original disc.
not so with osx. And the apps presented, would werk, but they would have to be in place before said disaster happened.

Therefore, my argument, as is, was that mac doesn't have a decent native rollback option(which i here the latest does in timemachine, or is it an extra add -on for cash?) and its far to easy to remove an app.
Just an opine, not a declaration of war.
Where the hell is that "who wants a beer?" button?

Qexit
03-09-2008, 08:02 AM
sound? i cant say its mac dominant either, ive been to plenty of music hardware stores and fruityloops workstation bundles usually come with PCs driving em. Small aside, there appear to be an amazing number of musicians who still use (cling to ? :D ) their old Atari ST setups...never mind PCs and Macs. A friend of mine still uses Notator because she cannot get her head around anything on the PC or Mac. I've just about convinced her to at least give Logic Audio another try (note, not necessarily the best or easiest to use package out there but it's the only one that can still import her treasured Notator Song files.) It's taken ages to track down a version 5.X PC license as she wants to stick with her PC once her Atari is finally retired.

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 08:08 AM
Crikey.. You trying to raise your post-count, or what? :D
Man, seriously, I didn't think it would get this far. I thought a couple of heads were gonna say "rtfm, dumbass", and that would be that.
In fact I was just venting, and not really even looking for sympathy(maybe a little). But wow, just, wow.
I'd rather not get in a "who's a bigger jerk till we get banned contest", so before this gets anymore heated, i promise i won't write anything inflammtory sounding without a little smiley guy so everyone knows i'm "trying" to be funny, and vice versa, 'kay?

STEEL TOE MEDIA
03-09-2008, 08:13 AM
[QUOTE=Qexit]Small aside, there appear to be an amazing number of musicians who still use (cling to ? :D ) their old Atari ST setups...never mind QUOTE]

My music studio set up is pro tools on the pc i used for my 3d stuff, before i built my new machine.
Been thinking about trying it out on the g4, cause they are about the same, and the mbox i bought has a mac version (see, fanboys, all is not lost:santa: .).

avkills
03-09-2008, 08:48 AM
Macs and OSX are a pain in the arse in my most humble opinion. I sit by a Mac every day at work (I have used Macs professionally every day since the IIfx) and OSX is a completely garbagyfied, buggy horror for use as a professional workstation environment. It simply sucks beyond belief and should stay on girly iMacs for mass-consumer use, the segment Apple caters to anyway. The file system and network issues we run into are endless. Folder sizes take minutes to update across networks (All Apple Xserve based), sometimes full folders appear empty until copied to another disk and back, sometimes permissions go tits up for no apparent reason, the dock locks up for no apparent reason... the list is endless.

Try raising concerns about OSX or Apple products on Apple's forums and see them close down your topics faster than you make them, even if they're completely legitimate and written in regular business communication style. Apple royally suck at supporting their professional users and will do anything to silence the smallest concern. They're too busy spreading their marketing ******** about how much safer/better Macs are to allow any blemish on their self perceived image of perfection. Too bad sheep buy into Apple's inane marketing.

But things going to change here. We, the designers at the agency, have decided that come next hardware upgrade, Macs are out and lovely Windows running PC workstations are in. That'll give us a greatly expanded selection of artist's software to choose from as well. The pickings for OSX are slim at best. At least for what we want.

I'm also with Stooch, all the people I know that are serious about computer graphics, graphics design, programming, compositing, 3d animation etc. etc. are ALL on the PC/Win platform. There's not a single Mac user among them. Creatives the whole lot and not a single Mac user! They're also perfectly capable of the handling the technicalities that go with creative, digital graphics production. Almost all of these people I know, who make their living from one creative digital field of work or the other, share the same old Amiga heritage, so we're well aware of what quality in computing is. OSX isn't it.

I don't like Apple much, at all. The new Mac Pro systems are OK in my book as there's nothing particularly wrong with them, but OSX is still by far the worst OS I've ever had the displeasure of using in a production setting.

Interesting that you have so many issues...Although I am basically a one man shop, I really do not have any problems networking with the Wintels in the office or between my G5 and Mac Book Pro.

Of course my limited use with Leopard may change that. Tiger was pretty solid though; I would have to say that the Apple platform is pretty popular in the video editing/motion graphics community. I have yet to have any issues with my G5/FCP/AJA IoLA setup.

As far as the original poster goes; OS X is different...and not for everyone; some of the things you did have no sense in them...why do you need to move the application? Why do you need an alias of it on the desktop? Put it in the Dock. One of the things we like about OS X is that most applications do not litter the drive with files all over the place, so there is no need for a unistall application for 90% of the apps.

Oh and dragging folder icons in Windows does not make an alias, it moves the folder if it is on the same drive, or copies it if it is to another drive; just like a normal person would expect.... OS X does it the same way BTW.

The first rule about using OS X is not thinking like Windows; I would argue that 99% of the things that OS X does as a OS to me is the "common sense" way that I would expect it to happen and work.

And the right click issue is a non-issue. Everyone I know who has a Mac ditches the Apple mouse and gets a logitech. The right click is there; but I would also argue that nothing is hidden under right clicks.

The first rule of Windows if if you can't figure out how to do something, right click on it. ;)

-mark

Lightwolf
03-09-2008, 09:24 AM
Oh and dragging folder icons in Windows does not make an alias, it moves the folder if it is on the same drive, or copies it if it is to another drive; just like a normal person would expect.... OS X does it the same way BTW.
Almost... my biggest gripe with OSX is that, if you copy and overwrite an existing folder, it will delete the existing folder first... which is a huge pain if you try to merge projects.

On the other hand... Terminal is fun, screw the GUI (leave that for wusses ;) ) :D

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
03-09-2008, 09:58 AM
Where the hell is that "who wants a beer?" button?:beerchug:

SBowie
03-09-2008, 10:03 AM
And the right click issue is a non-issue. Everyone I know who has a Mac ditches the Apple mouse and gets a logitech. The right click is there; but I would also argue that nothing is hidden under right clicks.And yet .... scarcely a week goes by when I don't talk to a Mac user who has no clue how to perform one. On the latter point, as apps often secrete files (within the .app), how do you "Show Package Content" without using the right-click menu?

There are lots of things I like about Macs, but I can't for a second conceive of a good reason that a user should need to purchase an after market mouse for something like this.

Puguglybonehead
03-09-2008, 10:16 AM
Mac OS has supported 3-button mouse functions since OS 8.6 (I think, but I've only used it in OS X) , but for some unfathomable reason, they've kept quiet about it. I've been using a cheap 3-button Labtec mouse with my Macs since 2000. I can't even picture using a single-button mouse. I wonder when Apple will get around to updating the design of their laptops to modern standards? Oh, and maybe ditch the cheap plastic shells of the MacBook in favour of aluminum (like everybody else uses). I hated the fragility of my last iBook. I'm still a diehard Mac user, but sometimes the shortcomings of a proprietary equipment platform really gets to me.

RonGC
03-09-2008, 10:52 AM
Nice to see this discussion on its way to purgatory. Ive been using 3 button Mice for years on a Mac, they are a cheap add-on and one that people even on Windows machines, replace the cheap mouse that comes with a lot of the computers out there.

Ron

Stooch
03-09-2008, 10:56 AM
actually ill back his issues, i work at my friends agency every now and then - they are cretive designers, motion graphics house. really good work, they still love their macs but the couple of times a month I come in there is always something going on with their network. interestingly the dual boot XP install on one of the intel macs ha been chugging along with no issues since the day it was setup. hmm. but yeah i can attest to the network problems, the permissions issues, i tried setting up a rener farm n all the stations and what a pain that was. I really dont like the management side of OSX, its amazing how they can screw that up when using a supposedly good core as the basis of the OS.

go figure. but the guys i work with, they still love their macs, definitelly mac fanboys, they keep on making little jabs at pcs all the time lol. I really dont have to defend my pc since... well its a mac pc clone LOL, i just get my work done with no issues and go home.


Interesting that you have so many issues...Although I am basically a one man shop, I really do not have any problems networking with the Wintels in the office or between my G5 and Mac Book Pro.

Of course my limited use with Leopard may change that. Tiger was pretty solid though; I would have to say that the Apple platform is pretty popular in the video editing/motion graphics community. I have yet to have any issues with my G5/FCP/AJA IoLA setup.

As far as the original poster goes; OS X is different...and not for everyone; some of the things you did have no sense in them...why do you need to move the application? Why do you need an alias of it on the desktop? Put it in the Dock. One of the things we like about OS X is that most applications do not litter the drive with files all over the place, so there is no need for a unistall application for 90% of the apps.

Oh and dragging folder icons in Windows does not make an alias, it moves the folder if it is on the same drive, or copies it if it is to another drive; just like a normal person would expect.... OS X does it the same way BTW.

The first rule about using OS X is not thinking like Windows; I would argue that 99% of the things that OS X does as a OS to me is the "common sense" way that I would expect it to happen and work.

And the right click issue is a non-issue. Everyone I know who has a Mac ditches the Apple mouse and gets a logitech. The right click is there; but I would also argue that nothing is hidden under right clicks.

The first rule of Windows if if you can't figure out how to do something, right click on it. ;)

-mark

RonGC
03-09-2008, 11:09 AM
If i like something what makes it someone's mission in life to try to persuade me to use something else.

You see the same thing with cars, and clothing and whatever. People just get too hung up on this is perfect for me so it should be perfect for you, and if you don't like what i like your an idiot.

This attitude is schoolyard bullying at its best.

Why should i go and rain on someone else' parade, they are enjoying life as it is, now i have a mission to make them unhappy?

Life is to short to go around miserable, if a person enjoys a Mac or a PC let them enjoy. Is that really too hard to do?:)

Ron

SBowie
03-09-2008, 11:20 AM
Ive been using 3 button Mice for years on a Mac, they are a cheap add-on and one that people even on Windows machines, replace the cheap mouse that comes with a lot of the computers out there.c'mon - no-one said here it can't be done, or that the OS lacks support ... but doesn't that just make the anachronism even sillier?

What are we saying - "As our contribution to your neighborhood landfill and to help your local BestBuy make a few bucks, we've sent you a shiny new one-button mouse!"? Or maybe it's an unpublicized act of philanthropy - a cottage industry employing the elderly in some remote village would dry up without their contract to whittle one-button mice out of blocks of acrylic polymer ...

Seriously, it's not treason to admit this is a bit out of date. :D

p.s. - having just read your last post, please note I'm not saying don't enjoy your mac, macs are junk, etc., etc. I like mine, and have said so repeatedly. Perfect though? Nah. Isn't it fair game to consider pros and cons in friendly fashion, without abuse?

parm
03-09-2008, 11:30 AM
On the other hand... Terminal is fun, screw the GUI (leave that for wusses ;) ) :D

Anorak :)

RonGC
03-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Steve i agree with you 100%, Mac is far from perfect, but little in life is:)

As to mice i have my favorite and with each new Computer it is my first choice, sure i can Control click for right click mouse functions but the 3 button mouse is faster, mine actually has to side buttons as well for moving back and forth pages in browsers, documents etc.

So it does not matter if i was using PC or Mac i would still choose to use my favorite mouse :thumbsup:

It still is about personal free choice, that is the only true freedom i have in life.

Ron

RonGC
03-09-2008, 11:37 AM
I really dont like the management side of OSX, its amazing how they can screw that up when using a supposedly good core as the basis of the OS.

Are the Macs running 24 hours a day, or do you have the Unix maintenance scripts set to run a specified intervals during breaks?

Unix needs its maintenance scripts to be run regularly for the system to be kept in top running condition. You have daily, weekly and monthly scripts to be run.

By default these are set to be run late at night, if the computers are shut off the scripts don't get run and Unix begins to develop problems.

This one area where some newer Mac users are a little lax at doing.

Ron

Stooch
03-09-2008, 11:50 AM
who are you talking to? I dont think anyone cares here what you use, from the way i see it, yuo are a disadvantage when compared to my workflow (if you are using a mac) so please keep using it its to my professional advantage from my POV. nothing to do with bullying either, althogh I am not a fan of the thin skin, whiner - everyone is out to get me - attitude. its really annoying for me, seems to be common with that underdog platform, but i guess it comes with territory?


If i like something what makes it someone's mission in life to try to persuade me to use something else.

You see the same thing with cars, and clothing and whatever. People just get too hung up on this is perfect for me so it should be perfect for you, and if you don't like what i like your an idiot.

This attitude is schoolyard bullying at its best.

Why should i go and rain on someone else' parade, they are enjoying life as it is, now i have a mission to make them unhappy?

Life is to short to go around miserable, if a person enjoys a Mac or a PC let them enjoy. Is that really too hard to do?:)

Ron

Steamthrower
03-09-2008, 11:56 AM
You can't delete any application from windows merely by dragging it to the waste basket and deleting it.
You have to go to the remove programs window.

Nope. Go into your programs folder and delete your Layout.exe file, guess what, you've deleted Lightwave.


who are you talking to? I dont think anyone cares here what you use, from the way i see it, yuo are a disadvantage when compared to my workflow (if you are using a mac) so please keep using it its to my advantage from my POV. nothing to do with bullying either, i dont think anyone is bullying anyone, althogh not a fan of the thin skin, whiner, everyone is out to get me, attitude. its really limp wristed and annoying for me.

To be fair, Stooch, Ron is pretty even-handed here. He's openly admitting that some people use PCs and some people use Macs. I don't see what the big issue is. Does it affect you?

IMI
03-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Go into your programs folder and delete your Layout.exe file


Man, that's just terrible advice.
Although it does solve alot of problems. ;)

RonGC
03-09-2008, 12:11 PM
I don't whine, no one is out to get me, i'm not paranoid. Just want freedom to choose with out my choice being ridiculed, enough said.:thumbsup:

Because i prefer one thing over another does not make me a fanboy, or an idiot, or stupid.:)

Ron

Stooch
03-09-2008, 12:12 PM
To be fair, Stooch, Ron is pretty even-handed here. He's openly admitting that some people use PCs and some people use Macs. I don't see what the big issue is. Does it affect you?

no thats exactly what im saying in my post. are you having trouble reading it? was "please keep using it" vague?



Because i prefer one thing over another does not make me a fanboy, or an idiot, or stupid.:) Ron

who called you taht? i dont see anyone calling you that. there are people talkinga bout their experience with macs, thats all. are you sure you arent paranoid?

Stooch
03-09-2008, 12:16 PM
yes they are LOL im always on their case about turning off their monitors because there seems to be an issue with most of the macs taht prevents the monitors (and or system) from going to sleep. it would be a shame to see all those nice monitors get killed faster then they have to.

i dont think they are unix pros ("designers" remember?), they have some tech guy that stops by though to take a look at things. wasnt the whole point of macs is "it just works" ? seems to me that the very reason why windows is being criticised so much by mac advertising is essential for a properly running mac? anyway ill tell them about these scripts, thanks for the headsup.


Are the Macs running 24 hours a day, or do you have the Unix maintenance scripts set to run a specified intervals during breaks?

Unix needs its maintenance scripts to be run regularly for the system to be kept in top running condition. You have daily, weekly and monthly scripts to be run.

By default these are set to be run late at night, if the computers are shut off the scripts don't get run and Unix begins to develop problems.

This one area where some newer Mac users are a little lax at doing.

Ron

SBowie
03-09-2008, 12:19 PM
Because i prefer one thing over another does not make me a fanboy, or an idiot, or stupid.I agree pejoratives bring nothing useful to the table. Kind of a pity this thread began with one in the title, but even so it's been pretty calm for once.

RonGC
03-09-2008, 12:20 PM
i dont think they are unix pros, they have some tech guy that stops by though to take a look at things. wasnt the whole point of macs is "it just works" ? seems to me that the very reason why windows is being criticised so much by mac advertising is essential for a properly running mac? anyway ill tell them about these scripts, thanks for the headsup.


Yeah, every system requires maintenance, Unix definitely does:)

Ron

SP00
03-09-2008, 12:32 PM
Almost... my biggest gripe with OSX is that, if you copy and overwrite an existing folder, it will delete the existing folder first... which is a huge pain if you try to merge projects.

On the other hand... Terminal is fun, screw the GUI (leave that for wusses ;) ) :D

Cheers,
Mike


Its not necessarily a bad or good thing, just different. For example, if you copy a project folder from your server to your laptop and decided that you didn't need certain files and delete them on your laptop, when you copy your project folder back to the server, it remembers what you deleted instead of just merging everything making your deletion a waste of time. Just a different way to work with files, not really a good or bad thing.

Lightwolf
03-09-2008, 12:39 PM
Just a different way to work with files, not really a good or bad thing.
In this case I beg to differ. The main reason is that you have a choice on windows (delete manually) - while on OSX you don't. Otherwise I wouldn't mind. I just don't like the OS limiting my choices and not giving me alternatives, this being a severe case (at least as far as my workflow is concerned).

Hey, I did mention the Terminal and I did say the GUI sux :D

Cheers,
Mike

SP00
03-09-2008, 12:49 PM
I notice that the people complaining are complaining about the pre leopard release. Leopard solves a lot of problems that some people are complaining about.

Really, if you haven't tried Leopard yet and you have the ability to try it out, please do. Give it a week to get adjusted to its workflow and you might have a different opinion of it.

Just don't expect it to work like windows, or you will just get disappointed.

SP00
03-09-2008, 12:53 PM
In this case I beg to differ. The main reason is that you have a choice on windows (delete manually) - while on OSX you don't. Otherwise I wouldn't mind. I just don't like the OS limiting my choices and not giving me alternatives, this being a severe case (at least as far as my workflow is concerned).

Hey, I did mention the Terminal and I did say the GUI sux :D

Cheers,
Mike

I guess that is the difference between the two OSes, OS X simplify things and limit your choices, while Windows give you a lot more choices, but can seem complicated. The limitation that I do encounter on OS X is not a big deal for me and I find myself working faster without having to be as careful since the workflow is more simplified. But I can see why people want more choices. I personally don't need them all, Lightwave 3D is complicated enough :)

Lightwolf
03-09-2008, 12:59 PM
I guess that is the difference between the two OSes...
I see it more as a difference between OSX and any other OS that I've worked with...

But in general you're right... If you look at the Finder vs. Explorer (especially in Vista) it is apparent that Explorer was designed with power users in mind (surprisingly I'd expect a OS targetted for the larger market to be more restricted).

Let's hope that 10.6 finally gets a decent Finder... people have been nagging for how long now?

Cheers,
Mike

RonGC
03-09-2008, 01:25 PM
I see it more as a difference between OSX and any other OS that I've worked with...

But in general you're right... If you look at the Finder vs. Explorer (especially in Vista) it is apparent that Explorer was designed with power users in mind (surprisingly I'd expect a OS targetted for the larger market to be more restricted).

Let's hope that 10.6 finally gets a decent Finder... people have been nagging for how long now?

Cheers,
Mike

Decent how , if you don't mind me asking?
I can search for any item in any folder, even within Lw requestor windows to find an item.
Quick look is awesome, viewing found files without opening an application to check if it was the one i wanted.

Ability to read and write pdf's from most any app with the built in pdf tools.

There are many tools available built into the Mac that are easy to use and mean you don't have to spend money buying specialized apps to do.

Seems pretty good to me.

Ron

SBowie
03-09-2008, 01:40 PM
Decent how , if you don't mind me asking? I'm interested in the reply to this one too. Well, one thing I've noticed - it's a serious PITA to view hidden files and folders in OS X, much easier in windows.

Apart from that, I'm comfortable enough in Finder - and although I might like XP's file explorer a bit more, I have not had as happy a time with my Vista system in that respect. (From day one the silly thing has defaulted every newly imported folder to 'photo' viewing mode, requiring me to manually change it to something useful in most cases. I expect there's a way to change the default, but I've not found time to find out - and really shouldn't have to, imho.)

RonGC
03-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Agreed it is hard to view hidden files, you can access them though applescripts or utilities like cocktail and some freebie apps. Apple likes to protect everyday users by preventing them from screwing things up too much, like deleting a hidden file you shouldn't have :D

However any power users do have terminal.

Ron

RonGC
03-09-2008, 01:54 PM
I will probably put Vista on my Mac as well at some future point, once it has Matured a bit. OSX had its teething troubles too in the earlier versions.

Ron

Lightwolf
03-09-2008, 01:55 PM
Decent how , if you don't mind me asking?
Application shortcuts that allow for comman line parameters (which would allow for shortcuts to command line only apps as well), the ability to change to a different folder by just entering the path in the current window... instead of pressing a shortcut to "go" to a different folder, a tree view of the hierarchy would be nice as well (the NextStep style multi-column view is cute, but takes too much space), have folders sorted separately from files ... just off the top of my head... really just basic file handling, nothing fancy.
OSX does the fancy stuff well, but the basics are imho lacking.

Cheers,
Mike

IMI
03-09-2008, 01:58 PM
(From day one the silly thing has defaulted every newly imported folder to 'photo' viewing mode, requiring me to manually change it to something useful in most cases. I expect there's a way to change the default, but I've not found time to find out - and really shouldn't have to, imho.)


With a folder open in Vista, press the Alt key, which brings up the hidden menu bar. From there, Tools>Folder Options>View>Apply to Folders.
That's of course, after you've set up that folder how you like it. Seems to work most of the time, but for some reason, some folders just do their own thing.

RonGC
03-09-2008, 01:59 PM
Application shortcuts that allow for comman line parameters (which would allow for shortcuts to command line only apps as well), the ability to change to a different folder by just entering the path in the current window... instead of pressing a shortcut to "go" to a different folder, a tree view of the hierarchy would be nice as well (the NextStep style multi-column view is cute, but takes too much space), have folders sorted separately from files ... just off the top of my head... really just basic file handling, nothing fancy.
OSX does the fancy stuff well, but the basics are imho lacking.

Cheers,
Mike

:agree: Mike, just curious as to what your take on finders limitations were. I just personally don't need that extra functionality currently. Perhaps it will come in time:)

Ron

Lightwolf
03-09-2008, 02:06 PM
:agree: Mike, just curious as to what your take on finders limitations were.
No worries... I could probably find some in Explorer as well... but I have to admit that Vista is surprisingly nice in that regard.

Cheers,
Mike

parm
03-09-2008, 02:11 PM
I will probably put Vista on my Mac as well at some future point, once it has Matured a bit. OSX had its teething troubles too in the earlier versions.

Ron

I was looking at Vista on some laptops yesterday. I have to say, that I quite liked it. A big step in the right direction in my view. Very Mac like.

I'll also be putting it on my next Mac. I'm dying to try out some of those windows only apps.

RonGC
03-09-2008, 02:17 PM
No worries... I could probably find some in Explorer as well... but I have to admit that Vista is surprisingly nice in that regard.

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks Mike, its little info tidbits like this on Vista that i value. Much better Than Vista Rulz cuz it's Windows.:thumbsup:

Thanks as well Parm.

The nice thing about this "underdog" Mac platform is being able to run all the OS's, windows as well. Yes i do run some windows only apps * Gasp heresy * so i do get the best of many worlds. Am looking at Vista, dubiously currently, but give it time. Lets see what the next couple of service releases bring to the table.

Ron

Steamthrower
03-09-2008, 02:39 PM
For a while people were really complaining about Vista, so I wasn't sure how I'd like it until I upgraded some of the office computers to both Home Premium and Ultimate. I'll have to say that despite the negative media on it, Vista is much better than XP. I was really impressed.

Some of the Vista features kind of bug me, though. For example the "My Computer" interface is just confusing.

SP00
03-09-2008, 02:40 PM
Application shortcuts that allow for comman line parameters (which would allow for shortcuts to command line only apps as well), the ability to change to a different folder by just entering the path in the current window... instead of pressing a shortcut to "go" to a different folder, a tree view of the hierarchy would be nice as well (the NextStep style multi-column view is cute, but takes too much space), have folders sorted separately from files ... just off the top of my head... really just basic file handling, nothing fancy.
OSX does the fancy stuff well, but the basics are imho lacking.

Cheers,
Mike

Yes, I do think Finder has a few minor weaknesses, but I think its strength makes up for it. I really enjoy cover flow (I thought it was a cheap gimmick at first) and it makes media browsing a breeze, and the ability to instantly preview the file by simply hitting the space bar is impressive. I finish rendering a short animation clip recently, and it was really fast and convenient to flip thru and preview all the rendered images to track down any errors. I better stop, I can feel myself being sucked into MAC zealot land :)

IMI
03-09-2008, 02:45 PM
Some of the Vista features kind of bug me, though. For example the "My Computer" interface is just confusing.


I'd be lying if I said Vista didn't bug me more than half the time, particularly where the "load" dialog is concerned in some programs... such as LW and m***.
Five months later and I'm still not entirely used to Vista.

But to stay on topic, I've been lurking in this thread ever since it began. This has been pretty interesting. One of my plans for this year is to buy a really good Mac, and I imagine I'll be referring back to this eventually.
Still am not sure what "leopard" is though. Does OSX come in different "flavors" like Linux does?

RonGC
03-09-2008, 02:55 PM
Leopard is the current version of the operating system. Unlike vista or Linux (not sure here) there is only one version, no Leopard home, leopard business etc. Just Leopard.

That is one thing that has always bugged me, how do you make the right choice with which version of Windows to buy. Talk about over complicating things. SHeeeesh:)

Ron

Steamthrower
03-09-2008, 03:15 PM
Home Premium is the way to go, unless you need business-specific stuff like Remote Desktop or specialised networking.

Did you know that at NewEgg you can buy the OEM version of Vista for $109? Not resellable, but hey, that's pretty cheap. Both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions are the same price.

RonGC
03-09-2008, 04:04 PM
Thanks i'll check out Home Premium.

Ron

IMI
03-09-2008, 04:12 PM
Thanks i'll check out Home Premium.

Ron


Ultimate is more expensive, but very cool. I don't think Home premium has Aero, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: I guess I could have researched it first. Which I just did. Took all of twenty seconds. ;)
Home Premium does have Aero, apparently.

Philbert
03-09-2008, 04:38 PM
Home Premium does have Aero, apparently.

Yes it does, I have it on my laptop. It also has Media Center, which is nice since my laptop came with an HDTV tuner

Jim_C
03-09-2008, 04:42 PM
BORING!!!!!

C'mon!! What kind of Mac vs PC thread is this?

Thank Yous? Helpful hints? Respect for the other side???
Bah!!!!

Steamthrower
03-09-2008, 05:23 PM
Let the vitriol loose...

You pathetic loser PC guys you're all dusty old farts, like the guy in the commercials, whereas we the Apple intelligentsia aren't phased by your Windows CRAP-BOXES which are ultimately headed for the filthiest dumpster in sight. You MORONS. Imbeciles, your stinking maggot-infested brains are reeking with the pungent juices caused by the registry, and NTFS, I can just see your bloated grey matter oozing out of your pores.

That good enough for ya? ;D

Stooch
03-09-2008, 07:17 PM
Thanks Mike, its little info tidbits like this on Vista that i value. Much better Than Vista Rulz cuz it's Windows.:thumbsup:

Thanks as well Parm.

The nice thing about this "underdog" Mac platform is being able to run all the OS's, windows as well. Yes i do run some windows only apps * Gasp heresy * so i do get the best of many worlds. Am looking at Vista, dubiously currently, but give it time. Lets see what the next couple of service releases bring to the table.

Ron


so you are quoting my use of "underdog" for mac os. but I wonder where you are quoting this from: "Much better Than Vista Rulz cuz it's Windows.:thumbsup: "

i didnt see anyone say that? can you link please? or is it just a case of you pulling words out of thin air ?

RonGC
03-09-2008, 08:04 PM
Its just a case of having a little fun poke at some of the comments available on the web, not a quote. It is ok to have a little jest once in a while, is it not?:D

Ron

David_CGC
03-09-2008, 09:56 PM
And the right click issue is a non-issue. Everyone I know who has a Mac ditches the Apple mouse and gets a logitech. The right click is there; but I would also argue that nothing is hidden under right clicks.

The first rule of Windows if if you can't figure out how to do something, right click on it. ;)

First of all, I'd end up losing the mouse first anyway no matter how many buttons it came with because I'm a trackball guy, so I've never been able to sympathize with anyone who complains about the single-button default. No one sells a computer that comes with a trackball, so I've always been on my own in regards to input devices.

Second of all, Apple stopped selling single-button mice a while ago. All they've been selling for the last year or two has been that damn Mighty Mouse, which in addition to have a lame name, has pretty annoying human interface design. Because of the way it works, a right click would be more accurately called a not-left click with that thing.

Finally, you've hit on something pretty important when you mention nothing is hidden under the right-click on Mac. That's probably the reason it remains one of the worst-publicized features of the OS (witness this very thread, where no one even seems to be aware that Apple hasn't so much as manufactured a single-button mouse for two and a half years). It keeps interface designers honest when they can't rely on just hiding a control under a right-click menu. They actually have to put every option someplace visible.

RonGC
03-09-2008, 11:46 PM
To be honest i have never used the mighty mouse with my intel Mac, just plugged in my old faithful optical mouse. Its a comfort thing.

Mighty mouse just gives me visions of a caped, orange clad cartoon character.:)

Ron

Phil
03-10-2008, 05:56 AM
My only real grumble with OS X is the stupid design decision that folders should be replaced rather than updated. Windows has this right :

copy a folder 'a' to a destination with an existing folder called 'a'

Windows will update any matching files and put new ones in as well. The existing folder becomes a merged set of data from both folders, with newer data replacing older as needed. Just what you would expect. If you make a mistake, the worst that has happened is that you lost older versions of files (or have to unpick which newer files got copied into place). Not a disaster, by and large.

The Mac, though, replaces the existing 'a' with the folder 'a' that is being copied. That is horrendous - it's the worst possible design decision because it trashes data. You cannot recover from this AFAIK. Truly, utterly insane decision. Sadly, Path Finder doesn't fix this - they hand off to the OS :(

Philbert
03-10-2008, 08:22 AM
To be honest i have never used the mighty mouse with my intel Mac, just plugged in my old faithful optical mouse. Its a comfort thing.


When I built this computer back in the fall I went all out and picked up a Logitech MX Revolution mouse. Best mouse I ever used. I'm not sure about the mac software, but the Windows software could use some work though.

Scazzino
03-10-2008, 08:25 AM
My only real grumble with OS X is the stupid design decision that folders should be replaced rather than updated. Windows has this right :

copy a folder 'a' to a destination with an existing folder called 'a'

Windows will update any matching files and put new ones in as well. The existing folder becomes a merged set of data from both folders, with newer data replacing older as needed. Just what you would expect. If you make a mistake, the worst that has happened is that you lost older versions of files (or have to unpick which newer files got copied into place). Not a disaster, by and large.

The Mac, though, replaces the existing 'a' with the folder 'a' that is being copied. That is horrendous - it's the worst possible design decision because it trashes data. You cannot recover from this AFAIK. Truly, utterly insane decision. Sadly, Path Finder doesn't fix this - they hand off to the OS :(

It's only "bad" if your coming from Win... This doesn't normally bother most Mac users since that's the way it's always been, and it follows the original design metaphor more closely... If I drag a file to replace another file, it replaces it completely. If I drag a folder to replace another folder, it replaces it completely... it makes perfect sense actually...

Now that's not to say that no-one has a need to synchronize between two folders instead of replacing them. I'd actually like to see that added to Mac OS X and maybe triggered by holding a modifier key when dragging one folder to replace another. Currently I just use SyncTwoFolders (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/tcfj/site/) when I need to do this, mostly when copying stuff between my home studio and my office studio. It works fine.

:thumbsup:

Lightwolf
03-10-2008, 08:27 AM
It's only "bad" if your coming from Win...
Not quite (as I mentioned before)... not just windows, but just about any other OS...

Cheers,
Mike

RonGC
03-10-2008, 12:08 PM
Actually my Leopard and Tiger warns me if i try to copy a second same named file to the same location and asks me if i want to replace the existing file. So there never is any real danger of a drag and drop, and the other folder contents disappear, Oh no what did i just do moment.

Plus you can also use undo to restore the system to its previous state. So if i accidently replace a file i just undo this action and it's back? There are built in backup safety options if your aware of them.

You can pretty well undo anything, except if you empty the trash then its gone for ever. Unless your on Time machine then even thats undoable.

Ron

Scazzino
03-10-2008, 12:13 PM
Not quite (as I mentioned before)... not just windows, but just about any other OS...

Cheers,
Mike

There are other OS's? ;)

Jim_C
03-10-2008, 12:14 PM
It keeps interface designers honest when they can't rely on just hiding a control under a right-click menu. They actually have to put every option someplace visible.


hmm.. Personally I would rather have 5,10,15 options available immediately with a right click (even if not always visible) then trying to cram all 15 of those options somewhere on to a GUI just so it can be seen. Not saying Mac does that, but I wouldn't consider putting options in a right click 'Hiding them'.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one right clicks to see it, does it exist?
:)

Lightwolf
03-10-2008, 12:16 PM
There are other OS's? ;)
Lol... yup. I mean, hey... you ought to be careful, OSX is the first OS that Apple ever shipped to start with ;) (anything before that doesn't deserve to be called an OS :D ).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-10-2008, 12:18 PM
Not saying Mac does that, but I wouldn't consider putting options in a right click 'Hiding them'.
And to be honest, the Mac hides them behind buttons, which isn't much of a difference really. Or even better, changes menus depending on what keys you've got pressed while acessing it (QT Pro... even though I haven't checked if 7.x still does that).
Design blunders wherever you look, on any sides of the fences ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Phil
03-10-2008, 12:20 PM
It's only "bad" if your coming from Win... This doesn't normally bother most Mac users since that's the way it's always been, and it follows the original design metaphor more closely... If I drag a file to replace another file, it replaces it completely. If I drag a folder to replace another folder, it replaces it completely... it makes perfect sense actually...

Nope. Folders are collections of files. It makes more sense to assume that the contents should be merged, rather than one collection be replaced with another. It's a silly, braindead design decision. They don't even present the choice. It's the only part of OS X that actually gets me angry.


Now that's not to say that no-one has a need to synchronize between two folders instead of replacing them. I'd actually like to see that added to Mac OS X and maybe triggered by holding a modifier key when dragging one folder to replace another. Currently I just use SyncTwoFolders (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/tcfj/site/) when I need to do this, mostly when copying stuff between my home studio and my office studio. It works fine.

:thumbsup:

Wahey! Such a great design decision that you need 3rd party software to work around it. Stupid, stupid, stupid. There's no other way to describe it.

As I said, this aspect of OS X gets me angry. Honestly.

Lightwolf
03-10-2008, 12:22 PM
As I said, this aspect of OS X gets me angry. Honestly.
Hehe... and it bothers you more than it bothers me - even though you're a more avid OSX user than I am. Maybe that's why though...

Cheers,
Mike

SP00
03-10-2008, 12:33 PM
My only real grumble with OS X is the stupid design decision that folders should be replaced rather than updated. Windows has this right :

copy a folder 'a' to a destination with an existing folder called 'a'

Windows will update any matching files and put new ones in as well. The existing folder becomes a merged set of data from both folders, with newer data replacing older as needed. Just what you would expect. If you make a mistake, the worst that has happened is that you lost older versions of files (or have to unpick which newer files got copied into place). Not a disaster, by and large.

The Mac, though, replaces the existing 'a' with the folder 'a' that is being copied. That is horrendous - it's the worst possible design decision because it trashes data. You cannot recover from this AFAIK. Truly, utterly insane decision. Sadly, Path Finder doesn't fix this - they hand off to the OS :(

I said the same exact thing when I got my mac and was playing around with Tiger. But like I said before, once you get use to it, you don't miss it, and it has never been a problem. At least not yet.

Steamthrower
03-10-2008, 12:50 PM
I'll admit here that one particular thing absolutely kills me with OSX. It's the little red button that doesn't quit applications. Not the way OSX handles folders (that's no big deal for me), it's that little red button that doesn't quit programs. I don't like closing out of programs by right-clicking on the Dock. Or using the program's File > Quit menu. Or pressing Command+Q.

If anyone knows of a little widget/app/thing that converts the red button into a QUIT button, I will sell myself to them and register myself with the International Self-Enslavement Bureau.

SBowie
03-10-2008, 01:05 PM
I'll admit here that one particular thing absolutely kills me with OSX. It's the little red button that doesn't quit applications.Yes, that annoys me too. I wonder if anyone knows the rationale behind the design decision?

Lightwolf
03-10-2008, 01:12 PM
Yes, that annoys me too. I wonder if anyone knows the rationale behind the design decision?
Yup, that's the document centric design, as opposed to being application centric.
Some windows apps work similarily (MDI, Multiple Document Interface) - however, they handle different because of the main menu bar being attached to the parent/main window.
OSX apps don't have a parent window (and no window bar with a menu) - thus the need to quit the app using a menu.
A good example is Photoshop.

Cheers,
Mike

Steamthrower
03-10-2008, 01:18 PM
But some apps in Mac OSX, like Silo or FileZilla for instance, will close when you hit the red button...I'm assuming that the developers of programs have the power to make that red button a "quit"?

I know a bit about Windows GUI programming, but haven't even touched Mac programming.

SBowie
03-10-2008, 01:22 PM
Yup, that's the document centric design, as opposed to being application centric.And this is a good idea because .... ??

It's handy, for example, that Preview will run and show you a PDF and so-on, but it doesn't take long to arrive in a state where a whole bunch of little apps are running with no open docs. Maybe it really serves no purpose to shut them all completely down, but I tend to do it anyway when it dawns on me that this is so. Maybe the error is mine, but old habits die hard.

Steamthrower
03-10-2008, 01:28 PM
It's handy, for example, that Preview will run and show you a PDF and so-on, but it doesn't take long to arrive in a state where a whole bunch of little apps are running with no open docs. Maybe it really serves no purpose to shut them all completely down, but I tend to do it anyway when it dawns on me that this is so. Maybe the error is mine, but old habits die hard.

Exactly! My favorite example is TextEdit. In Windows, I have Notepad windows open everywhere, pasting some Javascript into one, updating my to-do list in another, writing down random poetry in another (yeah...really...) and viewing a readme in another. But in OSX just doing this with TextEdit seems hectic and disorganised. Ends up that after running through a folder of old files, I have Preview open, TextEdit open, NeoOffice open, Bean open, iTunes open...

Which brings me to another gripe. Picture viewing in OSX (at least 10.4) is a piece of bloody sotty crap. If anyone knows of a good free photo viewer, post a link!

Phil
03-10-2008, 01:37 PM
Xee : http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/xee.html

Steamthrower
03-10-2008, 01:42 PM
:bowdown:

Many thanks.

SBowie
03-10-2008, 01:47 PM
Interesting to see IFF listed in supported formats ... think I still have some folder with IFF sequences rendered out of LW 3.x somewhere on my HD.

Speedmonk42
03-10-2008, 02:07 PM
The funny thing is, how none of these arguments work in reverse. If something goes wrong on a Mac you don't know how to use it. If something goes wrong on Windows it is all Bill Gates fault.

Macs are for artists? What a pile of crap.

The OS should be invisible, and shouldn't matter.

Scazzino
03-10-2008, 02:13 PM
Nope. Folders are collections of files. It makes more sense to assume that the contents should be merged, rather than one collection be replaced with another.

Nope, this is how Apple implemented it... If I have one folder on my desk and I replace it with another one, of course the contents would go with it... If I want to muck with the folder's contents, I'd open the folders first and copy the contents that I want instead... the others just mucked it up when they copied Apple, and loosened the desktop metaphor... ;) ;) :devil:

Jim_C
03-10-2008, 03:42 PM
Do you buy more than 5 pairs of sneakers a year and drive a station wagon?

then you are a smug Mac user....

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1393&tag=nl.e550

(silly blog/poll but fun)

Snob Video
http://www.thestreet.com/video/10403708/index.html#10403708

Lightwolf
03-10-2008, 03:47 PM
Nope, this is how Apple implemented it...
...the others just mucked it up when they copied Apple, and loosened the desktop metaphor... ;) ;) :devil:
The problem is, the concept of copying files doesn't work with the desktop metaphor in any way you look at it - which means that any implementation is wrong. Except that one of them is potentially more destructive...
Oh well, I'm a fan of the workbench metaphor anyhow ;)

Cheers,
Mike

parm
03-10-2008, 05:08 PM
And to be honest, the Mac hides them behind buttons, which isn't much of a difference really. Or even better, changes menus depending on what keys you've got pressed while acessing it (QT Pro... even though I haven't checked if 7.x still does that).
Design blunders wherever you look, on any sides of the fences ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Design blunders? or user blunders?

Dragging to trash, and then, emptying trash. Overwriting folders of the same name. Are mistakes. Lets face it, we can all make them. But you can only protect people from themselves, so far.

I don't think Expose is a design blunder. Nor is being able, to double click on the icon of any attached drive. And view it's contents on a colour coded background. Wouldn't swap that for a hierarchy tree to Drive D, or is it F.

And it is by far the easiest on the eye. If you're fussy about that sort of thing.

Speedmonk42
03-11-2008, 09:12 AM
This debate is over! Check this comparison out!

Here is what people do with old Commodores

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/10/shredz64-is-very-real-and-very-shredding/


Here is what people do with Old Macs

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/10/mac-se-gutted-converted-into-toilet-paper-dispenser/

Andyjaggy
03-11-2008, 09:31 AM
I do LOVE the ability to color code folders. I wish windows had that.

Steamthrower
03-11-2008, 09:34 AM
I do LOVE the ability to color code folders. I wish windows had that.

Yeah, that is nice. I found myself changing the folder icons in Windows by painful methods just for speed. I'm a visual person and it's much easier to quickly find my "Personal Documents" folder when it's an icon of a sheet of paper.

I also love the dock. I just wish it could be extended a bit more, with "X" buttons or something.

Scazzino
03-11-2008, 09:38 AM
Oh well, I'm a fan of the workbench metaphor anyhow ;)

Personally I like the sandy beach metaphor... it's just much more relaxing... ;)

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 09:40 AM
Personally I like the sandy beach metaphor... it's just much more relaxing... ;)
Doesn't that depend on where the sand ends up? :D

Cheers,
Mike

Puguglybonehead
03-11-2008, 09:40 AM
This debate is over! Check this comparison out!

Here is what people do with old Commodores

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/10/shredz64-is-very-real-and-very-shredding/


Here is what people do with Old Macs

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/10/mac-se-gutted-converted-into-toilet-paper-dispenser/

Ha ha! I think the Mac application there is far more useful. Guitar Hero is for for the brain-dead who can't learn to play a real guitar. (and why is the pickup sideways on that guitar? WTF?!?) Mac Classics also make great doorstops. There used to be a website dedicated to converting old Macs into aquariums too.

Scazzino
03-11-2008, 09:45 AM
Doesn't that depend on where the sand ends up? :D

Cheers,
Mike

Not really, Mac users tend to prefer to sit on blankets or beach chairs... where "other OS" users like to get down and dirty in the sand... :jester:

Steamthrower
03-11-2008, 09:47 AM
Mac Classics also make great doorstops.

Compare that old Mac to a contemporary Windows computer, and it's a piece of Grecian beauty.

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 09:57 AM
Not really, Mac users tend to prefer to sit on blankets or beach chairs... where "other OS" users like to get down and dirty in the sand... :jester:
Now that doesn't surprise me at all ... after all, the turtle neck could get dirty while we're having all the fun :D Let me guess, you sip the latte while we empty the six packs :beerchug:

Cheers,
Mike - who wonders if we forgot any clichés...

Scazzino
03-11-2008, 10:05 AM
Now that doesn't surprise me at all ... after all, the turtle neck could get dirty while we're having all the fun :D Let me guess, you sip the latte while we empty the six packs :beerchug:

Cheers,
Mike - who wonders if we forgot any clichés...

I prefer to just sit back, enjoy the view, relax and let my mind contemplate deeper issues (while sometimes sipping iced tea ;-)... I also get a chuckle out of watching all the kids rolling around in the sand... :D

:beerchug:

Puguglybonehead
03-11-2008, 10:06 AM
http://homepage.mac.com/calhoun/projects/macquarium/index.html
http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/MacAquarium/index.shtml

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 10:11 AM
I prefer to just sit back, enjoy the view, relax and let my mind contemplate deeper issues...
... you contemplate ... we work on them ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Scazzino
03-11-2008, 10:19 AM
... you contemplate ... we work on them ;)

Cheers,
Mike

:i_agree: I like to contemplate what can be done with my tools, while others like to spend time working on their tools... :D

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 10:22 AM
:i_agree: I like to contemplate what can be done with my tools, while others like to spend time working on their tools... :D
... the issues, not the tools ... who cares about tools anyhow? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Jim_C
03-11-2008, 10:29 AM
I do LOVE the ability to color code folders. I wish windows had that.

You can. It's kinda a work around.

Make some small solid colored jpgs like 100pixels x 100pixels or such.
Red, black etc etc

Right click on a folder, choose properties, then customize.
Click 'Choose Picture' under Folder Pictures and choose one of the solids.

This will put a big colored square on the outside of the folder. Hoooray!!
However... It only shows in thumbnail view..Boooo!!!

BUT, below that setting in properties is the ability to change the icon of the folder to a different icon, so if not in thumbnail view you can still have differentiated color/shapes for folders.

Here is the folder with a color square applied viewed in thumbnails
55658

Here is the folder with a different icon in details view
55659

So there are a couple ways to organize folders by colors in Windows. It's just not very elegant. But should we be suprised? :)

Andyjaggy
03-11-2008, 10:33 AM
Yeah, I've done the folder with pics thing before. It's such a pain though, definitely a hack.

Lightwolf
03-11-2008, 10:48 AM
You can. It's kinda a work around.

Or you just goooooooogle:
http://icolorfolder.sourceforge.net/

Edit: Hm, it seems to be oldish though...

Cheers,
Mike

Jim_C
03-11-2008, 11:03 AM
Or you just goooooooogle:


yea.... the google

I do have a plug in thing called PHM PLUS! (http://www.phm.lu/products/PC/) that gives you a little more control over folder looks, but was trying to avoid the 'It takes a 3rd party app...." rebuttal.

SP00
03-11-2008, 11:39 AM
Yeah, that is nice. I found myself changing the folder icons in Windows by painful methods just for speed. I'm a visual person and it's much easier to quickly find my "Personal Documents" folder when it's an icon of a sheet of paper.

I also love the dock. I just wish it could be extended a bit more, with "X" buttons or something.

In Leopard, you can now put stacks and folders on the dock, it should help manage shortcuts and files.

I say everything before Leopard just can't stand against Windows. Leopard is the turning point.

SBowie
03-11-2008, 12:15 PM
I say everything before Leopard just can't stand against Windows. Leopard is the turning point.I haven't upgraded yet, although when I looked at the new stuff I recall being impressed.

Even so, it tickles my funny bone a bit to read your remark. I don't recall pre-Leopard Mac users saying en masse "everything (snip) just can't stand against Windows" ... so either this is 1) wrong, 2) a very rare and humble view, or 3) some of them were fibbing just a tad up through 10.4.11. Nah .... ;)

On the other side of that coin - I don't see many too Windows users saying "Finally, Vista makes my life worth living!", so no smugness from me!

parm
03-11-2008, 12:17 PM
So there are a couple ways to organize folders by colors in Windows. It's just not very elegant. But should we be suprised? :)

You're not wrong there. :)

And I think this is where the Mac scores very highly over windows. Even in Tiger. Is the elegant way, visual cues are used for navigating the interface.

With multiple drives attached, it's a real time saver. To be able to instantly see which folders are a associated with which drive, according to background colour. Especially where folders on different drives, or other computers, might share the same name.

Andyjaggy
03-11-2008, 02:23 PM
I didn't know you could do that in OSX. Cool.

SP00
03-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Here is a video on Quicklook and Spaces. I hope you see what I mean when I say if make media browsing much easier organizes your work.

Quicklook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqjH0_E4pxQ


Spaces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7MHup6kXbU&feature=related

SP00
03-11-2008, 04:38 PM
Sorry, I got a brain/type fart and I can't edit my post.

SBowie
03-11-2008, 07:24 PM
On the Leopard thing - here's a direct quote from a tech support query I received today (the user had reported returning to Tiger, and I asked why):

"I went back to Tiger because it is the very last operating system that has the least compatibility issues. Leopard running on an mac without intel is suicide! It deleted more that half of my programs, my user profile, bookmarks the list goes on. I'm sure they're people who would swear by it, however this is the most disappointed that I've been with the mac os."

(If there proves to be any truth to this, I might not upgrade my older Motorola box, just the Intel.)

RonGC
03-11-2008, 10:41 PM
Been running Leopard on both PPC and Intel since it came out and have had no problems at all. However on the PPC i did a clean install and had a backup copy of my Tiger boot disk on an external drive then did the import of Tiger data to Leopard through the migration wizard to get all my preferences and applications, address book data, etc across.

Ron

SBowie
03-12-2008, 07:03 AM
Thanks for the advice. Realistically, for all the use the system gets (basically a portable notepad), I probably won't to go to the trouble or expense. I'm glad this thread came up, as this is the first I'd heard of issues.

David_CGC
03-13-2008, 10:24 PM
Yup, that's the document centric design, as opposed to being application centric.


If anyone is at all interested in the philosophical differences between Window-based and Application-based paradigms in OS interfaces, you can't go wrong with this article. (http://daringfireball.net/2003/05/the_problems_with_clickthrough) Specifically, the "wildly tangential digression on the idea of eliminating the application-centric paradigm," though the whole article has some interesting points on fundamental differences between the Macintosh and Windows interfaces.

RonGC
03-13-2008, 10:47 PM
Interesting read.

Ron

SBowie
03-14-2008, 05:32 AM
I read it about two thirds of the way through and stopped. I disagreed with far too much of what the author was stating, including his anecdotal evidence, premises and conclusions. (Documenting the basis for disagreement would take far more effort than I have time for.) I do agree with his point on click-through as it applies to OSX however.

Lightwolf
03-14-2008, 05:43 AM
I read it about two thirds of the way through and stopped. I disagreed with far too much of what the author was stating, including his anecdotal evidence, premises and conclusions.
I didn't stop reading, but I disagree to a large part as well. The funny thing is... OSX always felt more document centric to me than Windows, even though it seems it was intended the other way around.
And I'm not even going to go into the partial application of Fitts’s Law (in that respect the dock is a disaster, and pop-up menus are the bee's knees)...

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
03-14-2008, 06:17 AM
I didn't stop reading...Yes, well ... hmmm .... yebbut you probably weren't only halfway through your first coffee of the day. (I'm not very patient until my caffeine levels reach operating baseline.) :grumpy:

Lightwolf
03-14-2008, 06:33 AM
Yes, well ... hmmm .... yebbut you probably weren't only halfway through your first coffee of the day.
First coffee? ... first litre of coffe is more like it ;) (If you'd call what I drink coffee, which is more like stained hot water :D ).

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
03-14-2008, 06:44 AM
more like stained hot water :D ).Mine is more in the nature of a 'slurry' ... (I'm trying to find a way to deliver it by IV connected to my alarm clock, but it's so viscous it the needle clogs.)

PaulP
03-14-2008, 02:26 PM
Apart from some minor resistance from certain Mac posters, I suppose it’s hardly surprising that a thread which mainly involves subtly and not so subtly bashing the Mac OS would occur on the forums of a company that does virtually all its development work on the PC and has treated the Mac as an afterthought from Day 1. It has obviously attracted like minded users. All it takes is 1 guy who can’t distinguish between an alias and the real thing, and out come the bashers, keyboards and mice at the ready, to unleash a series of nit picking tripe. And by the way, an alias always has a small arrow on the bottom left hand corner of the icon, so it’s hard to miss.

People evidently inhabit different spaces in the computer world, because I have NEVER had the sort of problems with the mac OS that are described on this thread. I have used Macs for over 10 years, in several different companies, with no issues of any consequence to speak of, either for myself or my colleagues. I work as a sole trader, but I am in touch with a couple of guys who do tech support for macs in large organisations. and they rarely encounter the sorts of troubles as described in a couple of these posts.

Obviously, some people will never learn. Consider the following random bits of information, in no particular order :

1. Ever since the mid 80’s Microsoft have unashamedly ripped off the look and feel of the Mac OS. Microsoft, being the greenest technology company in the world (think envy) can’t even restrict itself to copying computers, it has to copy the iPod as well. Dull. Boring, Unimaginative.

2. InfoWorld awarded its 2004 Best Operating System award and its Best Server Hardware award to Mac OS 10.3 Panther and the Xserve G5 respectively.

3. Walt Mossberg declared the iMac a while back to be the finest desktop PC on the market at any price (yes I know it’s not only the OS he’s talking about).

4. With the Mac you get a perfectly usable copy of UNIX as well as OS X.

5. Microsoft‘s tactics of snooping on customers is well known. Compare the process of registering / activating Mac OS X and Vista.

6. Microsoft are the absolute masters of FUD, especially when it comes to Apple.

7. Acer’s president called Vista disappointing when it was released.

8. Not only is Mac OS X lauded by users, check out this piece by Tom Yager on Leopard, as it pertains to software engineering and developers :
http://weblog.infoworld.com/yager/archives/2007/10/take_me_home_le.html

9. PC magazine recently declared that Leopard Mac OS X 10.5.2 is “.....by far the best operating system ever written for the vast majority of consumers....”

9. A recent article that indicated even Microsoft executives couldn’t get Vista to run :http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/microsoft-top-brass-burned-by-vista-problems/2008/02/29/1204226975087.html

10. A recent price / feature comparison between two computers, a Mac and a PC :
http://www.architosh.com/news/2006-08/2006a0828_dell-v-macpro.html

11. In 2007, Apple beat Dell in lap top sales in the higher education market.

12. A whole heap of Microsoft software doesn’t even recognise leap years, in 2008 !!

13. Ejecting a CD by dragging its icon to the trash is hardly a big deal - I suppose it’s perfectly logical to refer to drives and volumes as A drive, C drive......

I could find dozens more such articles and references, but for the sake of brevity, I won’t.

I’m sure that for Windo$e users, none of this stuff matters - all that matters is that the folder structure is different, or that the icons are the wrong colour, or that delete / undelete works differently, or that little red buttons don’t quit the app etc. All that matters is the myths - Macs are expensive, there’s no software, the mouse doesn’t have enough buttons, blah blah blah.......

And to AndyJaggy, Apple has NOT announced the discontinuation of Xserve - Xserve is still available and being developed, OS X Server is still available and being developed. What Apple has done is discontinued Xserve RAID and is offering Xsan 2 instead. And by the way, a company that moves to Intel processors and a UNIX based OS hardly sounds like a company moving only in the direction of lightweight consumer products - aren’t Intel one of the processors that serious, high end, know it all Windo$e types use ?

And to safetyman - it is very easy to know which Mac app you are in if you have multiple apps open - just look in the top left hand corner of the menu bar (next to the blue apple logo), and the name of the frontmost app is there. and all launched apps have a small triangle or spot under their icon in the dock - easy.

The relationship of the three buttons in the top left corner of a Mac document window make perfect sense. Whenever you launch a program, what always opens before you is a DOCUMENT - there are exceptions (some of my son’s free games come to mind) but this is almost always the case. You can’t really ever look at an application window, if you know what I mean. The fact that the red button closes a DOCUMENT and not an app makes perfect sense.

The dock is great - I love it -it acts as application launcher, switcher, temporary document holder and lots more.

How much bigger than Apple is Microsoft, both in terms of staff and in terms of money spent on R+D ? Does anyone know ? 5x? 10x? 20x? They should be making an OS that is indisputably, transparently and plainly obviously WAY superior to anything else on the market, that everyone can agree on. Instead you get crap Windo$e code on top of crap, creaky DOS code in release after release, culminating in a product that in some ways is indistinguishable from the Mac, in a couple of ways better, but in many ways worse.

Lord knows Apple is far from perfect, and their support does suck at times, but the simple truth is that they get more things right more of the time than do any of its competitors. Period.

If ever there was a compelling reason for me to sell my copies of LW 9 and 5.6, this thread would have to be it.

Steamthrower
03-14-2008, 02:32 PM
Oh my freaking holy burrito.

And I thought I was a Mac fanboy.

I bow before thee. :bowdown:

Lightwolf
03-14-2008, 03:53 PM
All that matters is the myths
Actually, if you read through this thread you'll see that it is way beyond the arguments in your list.
Nitpicking? Yes, but that's what personal perference is all about. Having said that, I'm glad you're mistaken into putting OSX into the document centric category just as I am ;)

I won't touch the other stuff because it will get nasty quickly, but for every argument there's a counter argument.

Again, so far this thread was beyond that and I actually found it to be quite refreshing for a change (Yes, I know both OSes (and some more), work on both, code on both - and they both suck considering that they still use age old metaphors that never made a lot of sense :D ).

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
03-14-2008, 04:03 PM
Again, so far this thread was beyond that and I actually found it to be quite refreshing for a changeDitto. Nice when one can say 'I like this but I don't care for that' without having someone freak out. I think it must be obvious that any list which shows either OS entirely in a positive light has been contrived by someone with a bit of tunnel vision.

(Besides, we all know that an A1200 still beats both of them hands down in many respects!) ... "And, they're off ... " :2guns:

Jim_C
03-14-2008, 04:09 PM
<BIG ole snip>Obviously, some people will never learn. Consider the following random bits of information, in no particular order :

1. Ever since the mid 80’s Microsoft have unashamedly ripped off the look and feel of the Mac OS. Microsoft, being the greenest technology company in the world (think envy) can’t even restrict itself to copying computers, it has to copy the iPod as well. Dull. Boring, Unimaginative.

2. InfoWorld awarded its 2004 Best Operating System award and its Best Server Hardware award to Mac OS 10.3 Panther and the Xserve G5 respectively.

3. Walt Mossberg declared the iMac a while back to be the finest desktop PC on the market at any price (yes I know it’s not only the OS he’s talking about).

4. With the Mac you get a perfectly usable copy of UNIX as well as OS X.

5. Microsoft‘s tactics of snooping on customers is well known. Compare the process of registering / activating Mac OS X and Vista.

6. Microsoft are the absolute masters of FUD, especially when it comes to Apple.

7. Acer’s president called Vista disappointing when it was released.

8. Not only is Mac OS X lauded by users, check out this piece by Tom Yager on Leopard, as it pertains to software engineering and developers :
http://weblog.infoworld.com/yager/ar...e_home_le.html

9. PC magazine recently declared that Leopard Mac OS X 10.5.2 is “.....by far the best operating system ever written for the vast majority of consumers....”

9. A recent article that indicated even Microsoft executives couldn’t get Vista to run :http://www.smh.com.au/news/technolog...226975087.html

10. A recent price / feature comparison between two computers, a Mac and a PC :
http://www.architosh.com/news/2006-0...-v-macpro.html

11. In 2007, Apple beat Dell in lap top sales in the higher education market.

12. A whole heap of Microsoft software doesn’t even recognise leap years, in 2008 !!

13. Ejecting a CD by dragging its icon to the trash is hardly a big deal - I suppose it’s perfectly logical to refer to drives and volumes as A drive, C drive......

I could find dozens more such articles and references, but for the sake of brevity, I won’t. <and another>


That was brevity?

Lightwolf
03-14-2008, 04:10 PM
(Besides, we all know that an A1200 still beats both of them hands down in many respects!) ... "And, they're off ... " :2guns:
Not to mention the A4000 :D

I suppose working in the "graphics" business for so long makes me criticize just about anything... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
03-14-2008, 04:18 PM
I had an A4k (and an A500), but the 1200 has a very special place in my heart. In so many ways it continued to be 10X the machine any Mac or PC was for the better part of a decade later ... sigh.

Puguglybonehead
03-14-2008, 09:01 PM
A friend of mine had an A4000, as well as a few other assorted Amigas, all networked together in his house. One day, a few years ago, they were lost to a power surge through his phone line during a thunderstorm. The culprit was a faulty insulator on the telephone pole. Ma Bell paid him handsomely for the damages and bought him all new PCs, but to this this day, he is still mourning their loss.

rakker16mm
03-15-2008, 12:22 AM
All I want to say is Macs and PCs are completely different beasts. If you are going to use a Mac don't treat it like a PC and visa versa and expect the same results. If you do you are going to be very disappointed. Do you also use Adobe Photoshop keyboard shortcuts when you use lightwave?

Lightwolf
03-15-2008, 09:06 AM
All I want to say is Macs and PCs are completely different beasts.
I suppose if you're familiar with either.. then they are different, not completely though.
If you're new to computers it doesn't make a difference...

Cheers,
Mike

Speedmonk42
03-15-2008, 10:16 AM
I finished taking a photoshop class last night, that was very good.

However, the guy is a total Machead. His assistant was going on about how this class would be impossible to teach on PC's. Telling a class full of people they need quad and octo Macs to do Photoshop.

He also told some guy to edit HD video he should go buy an external Lacie hard drive from the Apple store because that is the fastest hard drive you can buy.....

This is the kind of thing that bugs me. Not the computer, the people. Mac users of LW are not like this, they are knowledgable computer users. But dipshlts like this are a stain on computing....

webhead
03-15-2008, 11:56 AM
Come one, Steel Toe, come on. You can make application aliases, which are the same as shortcuts...and you can back up your system easily.

Macs aren't for everybody. They're for artists, not technical types.

I think Macs are for technical types as well as artists. I know a few techies that swore up and down how much better the PC is than the Mac - until they got to use them for a while. Now they are both Macophiles. I was just over one guy's house, who was a huge PC guy, and I noticed a brand new 24" iMac on his desk. I asked him about it. He said he loves it so much, he just sold off all his PC's.
I use both PC's and Macs at work; For me, everything is just easier on the Mac. I don't know why PC users have this constant need to put down Macs and insist that Mac users perpetually justify why we love our Macs so much. What are they afraid of?

SP00
03-15-2008, 12:12 PM
I finished taking a photoshop class last night, that was very good.

However, the guy is a total Machead. His assistant was going on about how this class would be impossible to teach on PC's. Telling a class full of people they need quad and octo Macs to do Photoshop.

He also told some guy to edit HD video he should go buy an external Lacie hard drive from the Apple store because that is the fastest hard drive you can buy.....

This is the kind of thing that bugs me. Not the computer, the people. Mac users of LW are not like this, they are knowledgable computer users. But dipshlts like this are a stain on computing....

That type of guy is bad for everyone, as he makes Mac people look like liars. We are not liars. We just like our macs. Nothing wrong with that.

Steamthrower
03-15-2008, 12:21 PM
Yeah, I guess so, but I really think that engineering and programming-minded people are drawn more towards Windows. Maybe that's just because there's a plethora of software and customer bases rooted in MS.

I am definitely an artist and technical things don't come natural to me. Yet I can use the command line, program in Xcode, write PHP scripts, do everything in a Mac that I would want to do in a PC except Direct X or .NET programming. So. It's kind of a grey area.

Vista's great in my opinion. XP sucked, NT sucked, 98 and 95 really sucked. Actually Windows 3.1 was the first OS I really intensively used, and it wasn't all that bad. Not very powerful, but not bad either.

I think technology is coming to a crossroads in the past decade. This crossroads is a major turning point in compatibility and interactivity. Microsoft and Apple are already almost there. Linux is lagging but still driving on. And once they all meet, we'll have a happy era of "pick what system you like best, it really doesn't matter".

I happen to like Mac. I love my MBP and it's the best piece of electronics equipment I've ever owned, out of the thousands and thousands of dollars I've spent. Well. Maybe except for my iPod Nano video, that's a cool little thing. :D

But to each their own. If people don't berate me about being a stereotypical Mac owner I won't berate them about being like the PC guy on the ads...

SBowie
03-15-2008, 12:32 PM
I use both PC's and Macs at work; For me, everything is just easier on the Mac. I use both as well, but haven't gotten to the point where I'm leaning toward the mac as my primary system yet.


I don't know why PC users have this constant need to put down Macs and insist that Mac users perpetually justify why we love our Macs so much.All you need to do is look up a couple posts to see why someone might make that latter argument.

Apart from that (and one or two similarly one-sided posts in the several pages of this thread), this has mostly been a fairly level-headed discussion of what different individuals find to like or dislike about one or the other. I've found it informative. There are people on both sides who lack balance, perspective, and manners.

Lightwolf
03-15-2008, 12:43 PM
That type of guy is bad for everyone, as he makes Mac people look like liars.
Disclaimer: Please read this within the context of the original post, as this is not meant to be a swips against any computer users, but a general remark on the above quote. - gotta be careful here.
No, not liars, but like people who don't know what they're talking about. Liars are better, they do it on purpose.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
03-15-2008, 12:50 PM
Yeah, I guess so, but I really think that engineering and programming-minded people are drawn more towards Windows.
Well, i've seen a few computer science people use Macs, mainly because of the Unix roots. Of course the hard core uses an IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad running BSD in text mode ;)


Vista's great in my opinion. XP sucked, NT sucked...
Well, if you look back in history (as you do with NT)... there really wasn't an option back then. If you wanted a solid platform that supported OpenGL and multiple CPUs while being affordable... NT was it (NT 3.5.1 which is when I started and then 4.0). Let's not forget that OSX was only released in 2001, just before XP got out of the door. And before that MacOS couldn't really compete on a technical level if you consider 3D applications.

Cheers,
Mike

IMI
03-15-2008, 01:52 PM
But to each their own. If people don't berate me about being a stereotypical Mac owner I won't berate them about being like the PC guy on the ads...


As far as that goes, I think it was Mac that started with the public berating, via those commercials on TV. Almost all of it was hype, and greatly exaggerated, I think, in an attempt to get the PeeCee-Impaired to believe a Mac was somehow easier for the noobie.

No, I'm not anti-Mac. I want one, bad. I built a Mac Pro online the other day...and it only came to a little less than $9,000. Stopped just short of clicking the Place Order button. ;)

RonGC
03-15-2008, 01:56 PM
Don't just out of hand disregard the Mac on the science front, quite a few of the genetics people and research firms are on the Mac platform. As well as environmental sciences, etc. The list is quite impressive.

Platforms don't make the difference, people do. Serious use or fun use, people on both sides of the fence are productive and happy.

Ron

SBowie
03-15-2008, 02:09 PM
That's an entirely reasonable viewpoint.

Steamthrower
03-15-2008, 02:39 PM
Remember, in I Am Legend Will Smith the superintelligent biomedical researcher had a Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, and an iMac.

I mean, after he saved the world with a Mac, why would you go to a PC?

Serious situation to think about.

jasonwestmas
03-15-2008, 02:42 PM
I'm a PC person, but this is one thing that I, and I think a lot of other people, really like about my Mac... Easy to install/uninstall programs.

darn right osx has beautiful file management in my experience. . . can't say much for its 3D support but for 2D all the way!

Phil
03-15-2008, 02:43 PM
Yeah, I guess so, but I really think that engineering and programming-minded people are drawn more towards Windows. Maybe that's just because there's a plethora of software and customer bases rooted in MS.

That's a heavy generalisation. In academia, Mac usage by engineers and scientists is significant, in combination with Linux or Unix boxes.

In the engineering workplace, though, Windows dominates, although lagging several generations behind bleeding edge for desktop use. In those situations, though, you just pass the broken machine to the IT department and go for a coffee.

For those machines I have to support, I want either a linux install or a Mac (and preferably the latter if the user will tolerate it). I never expected to be a Mac guy - and probably wouldn't have been if they had stayed with PowerPC.

IMI
03-15-2008, 02:59 PM
I mean, after he saved the world with a Mac, why would you go to a PC?

Serious situation to think about.

Yeah, well, that kid in Mars Attacks saved the world with grandma's 78 rpm records, but we're not about to go that route. :D

Jim_C
03-15-2008, 03:09 PM
Remember, in I Am Legend Will Smith the superintelligent biomedical researcher had a Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, and an iMac.

I mean, after he saved the world with a Mac, why would you go to a PC?

Serious situation to think about.


Actually .... he had become so meglomaniacal he refused to believe there were even any other alternatives left in the world (people) ..

sounds like a true MacFanBoy.. ;)

heheheh

IMI
03-15-2008, 03:32 PM
Actually .... he had become so meglomaniacal he refused to believe there were even any other alternatives left in the world (people) ..

sounds like a true MacFanBoy.. ;)

heheheh

:ohmy:
Oh, that's good! :lol:

webhead
03-15-2008, 04:15 PM
Remember, in I Am Legend Will Smith the superintelligent biomedical researcher had a Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, and an iMac.

I mean, after he saved the world with a Mac, why would you go to a PC?

Serious situation to think about.
It's interesting to me that so many movies and television shows feature Macs as the protagonist's system of choice. Product placement may be a big factor, but if I was to go only by what they show in the movies, I would think that the Mac was the dominant personal computer system in use today instead of the PC.

Jim_C
03-15-2008, 04:28 PM
movies are full of cool people doing cool things and macs make people look cooler than pcs. :)

interesting that C.T.U.(24) switched from Macs to Dells in season 2 or 3, maybe 4....

SBowie
03-15-2008, 04:30 PM
I mean, after he saved the world with a Mac, why would you go to a PC?And Jeff Goldblum gave the aliens a cold with one in Inedpendence Day, so I guess you're right - the matter is settled. Anyone without a Mac is basically saying, 'Here you go, aliens - you can have Earth!":D

Lightwolf
03-15-2008, 04:34 PM
'Here you go, aliens - you can have Earth!":D
Hehe... you better keep a few SGIs Indys around in case you need to ward off dinosaurs ;)

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
03-15-2008, 04:35 PM
... if I was to go only by what they show in the movies... I'm *sure* we can trust the movies to be objective .... ("Mr. Burns, I think we can trust the President of Cuba!")

SBowie
03-15-2008, 04:58 PM
interesting that C.T.U.(24) switched from Macs to Dells in season 2 or 3, maybe 4....Maybe so, but when CTU blew it (sorry, Jack - let's just blame it on the writer's strike and never mention it again!), thank heavens Robert Hawkins was there with his (Panasonic) "Toughbook."

http://www.vistek.ca/prodimgalt/large/235253_3.jpg

Steamthrower
03-15-2008, 05:03 PM
Oh, man.

Did I derail this thread.

SBowie
03-15-2008, 05:12 PM
Derailing this thread was the best thing that could happen to it ... made it a lot more interesting (and fun). :)

p.s. - thanks heaven's for "Jericho". In the absence of 24, I needed that .... to make me feel like it's ok to turn the tv on again after "Lost" got lost ("Yes, it's true gentle viewers! This season on Lost the plot will advance another 7 minutes ... then back up a year, go ahead a month, then back up, then stop, then turn around ..." ARGGHHHHHH!)

webhead
03-15-2008, 06:57 PM
I'm *sure* we can trust the movies to be objective ....

Well, duh! It's a fact: All of life's questions are answered in the movies.

SP00
03-15-2008, 09:33 PM
I saw Macs used in Smallville. I'm sure it is the platform of choice for Superman :)

Hopper
03-15-2008, 09:45 PM
...thank heavens Robert Hawkins was there with his (Panasonic) "Toughbook."
I'm not a big fan of Panasonic notebooks. There "ok" as far as performance goes, but jeez.. you really can bounce one of those things down the stairs and expect them to still work. We used them for a military contract last year and those things were dropped, rained on, stepped on, and lugged around in equipment boxes with heavy gear and not a single one ever broke. Odd little things.

webhead
03-15-2008, 09:47 PM
Macs are definitely making the rounds in film and television for some reason.
I noticed in one link here Ebert said something similar to what I had said earlier regarding macs and movies:

http://www.webmasterworld.com/foo/3090919.htm

http://www.truerwords.net/3682

http://www.flickr.com/groups/appleinmovies/pool/

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=282392

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/07/05.4.shtml

Steamthrower
03-15-2008, 09:50 PM
Derailing this thread was the best thing that could happen to it ... made it a lot more interesting (and fun). :)

p.s. - thanks heaven's for "Jericho". In the absence of 24, I needed that .... to make me feel like it's ok to turn the tv on again after "Lost" got lost ("Yes, it's true gentle viewers! This season on Lost the plot will advance another 7 minutes ... then back up a year, go ahead a month, then back up, then stop, then turn around ..." ARGGHHHHHH!)

Oh man, talk about a great show. I love Lost, have watched every single episode except the latest.

Recently I've started watching the first season of Eureka, isn't half bad either.

Never could understand why anyone liked Heroes, that show has the worst special effects, plot, and acting ever.

Anyway. Derailing it enough? :D

P.S. By the way, Nancy Drew, a undoubtedly cool person, uses a MacBook Pro.

Mike Borjon
03-15-2008, 11:09 PM
Here's a seven-part series in which both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates sit down together in an on-stage interview at D5 and rekindle fond and not-so fond memories. I was a bit surprised to learn that Apple and Microsoft have been intertwined from the very beginnings of each company.

Lots of humor, tech-talk and jabs between the two.

http://d5.allthingsd.com/20070530/steve-jobs-and-bill-gates-together-part-1-of-7/

enjoy!